Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
Like to invite you to take a moment,
a moment within this minute, allowing
yourself to find physical, calm,
comfort and relaxation, whatever
that means to you, taking a breath in
and exhaling breath out,
inviting you in this moment within
this minute to soften your thoughts,
allowing yourself.
To be a witness,
breathing in and once again, breathing out
as you find your rhythm, connecting
the physical body, witnessing your
thoughts, I encourage you now to
turn to your emotional hearts.
Watching all the spectrum of emotions
and seeing where, in this moment,
within this minute, you land.
Breathing in and breathing out.
As you integrate your mind, your
body, and your heart, please allow
your spirit to also be focused on,
in this moment, within this
minute, breathing into your spirit.
Allowing time now to center
once again, finding grounding,
returning to this moment.
opportunity to reflect.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of
the psychedelic psychologist.
Where I invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual one margins
hi, today I welcome my guest Dominic,
someone who I have deep compassion
and significant respect for.
Dominic, welcome.
Good to see you.
It's good to see you too.
And it's wonderful to have
you on this conversation.
As you know, all things psychedelic
integration are fluid within the
moments and the minutes, and we've
spent much time together, we've spent
a lot of unpacking and I'm really
grateful to just check in with you
because I know psychedelics is new to
you, it's been on your horizon, what
drew you to psychedelics and the
healing capacities of the medicine?
Well,, thinking back, I think I've
always had a natural curiosity
of what else is there, you know?
I remember my teenage years, just
wanting to get out of the house, tired
of watching TV, go for walks around,
that was back in the 70s, smoke a bowl
or smoke a joint, and be, and be walking
around and looking, you know, everybody's
TV was just glowing through the windows,
everybody's doing the same thing, and I
remember thinking, God, there's got to
be more to this, more than just, just
this, you know, what else is there?
And I think that might have been
the start of it., Also just, I think
the resurgence of psychedelics in
hearing people's stories of, of
healing, healing emotionally, healing
psychologically, even healing physically,
also kind of resonated with me.
It's like, It just kind of felt right.
I mean, I tried microdosing, found
some benefits to that but, didn't
want to take the full step into
a big psychedelic experience.
I was kind of afraid of it and, I
think I made the, I was thinking
correctly when I thought I was a little
afraid of it because it's a big deal.
So it got to the point where
I had been wanting to find some therapist
somewhere who would, I could do a session
with I know I had a lot of trauma in my
past, several instances, incidents of
significant trauma, without going into it.
That I hadn't dealt with, and I know
it was causing me a lot of issues
emotionally and even physically, so
it's kind of like, you know, I'm 67,
I just had a major bout with cancer
that I recovered fully from, so there
has been a lot that has been going on
that I felt needed to be dealt with.
It just happened to fall my way.
I've, I've found a therapist who
established a relationship with, I
felt good about, I trusted to do high
dose session with, and, I was nervous
about it, it's like, you know, should
I, or shouldn't I, and I remember being
able to make my decision by thinking.
You know, this is, this is an
opportunity that I think somehow,
I hate to say the universe led me
to this moment, but it felt right.
It felt like this is, this is,
this is where you should be.
You know, everything you've been
thinking, doing has led up to this point.
So I'd almost felt like I'd be
foolish not to take advantage of this.
This is like kind of just fell my way.
And I thought, yeah, this is kind of
a gift that somehow been given to me.
Of, of the direction I need to head.,
and I just couldn't imagine continuing
on the way I was without doing anything.
I mean, at 67, you know, it's like do
something now or, continue on as, as, as
things are, and that wasn't satisfactory.
Dominic, I so appreciate your candor,
your honesty, and your transparency,
and there was a lot said in that, and
I'd like to unpack, first of all, your
intuition to listen and trust yourself.
Yeah.
Tell me more about that.
You said, you trusted the universe, you
see it much more as a synchronistic thing.
I'm assuming you're talking about
not only the guide, but also just the
invitation of working with psilocybin.
What, what are you knowing today
on the other end of this experience
that is deeply crystallized for you?
well, I do remember in the session,
especially towards the end of the
session, as you're kind of coming Stepping
back into the world, the normal world,
locality, ordinary world, feeling like,
yeah, this was the road, the road to
here, to this session would seem to
be paved long before I was conscious
of it, which is a, it sounds kind
of funny now, but when you're having
that, that deep level of experience,
that energetic connection, , it's just
seems so clear and not just being doing
the session, but also that feeling
with the guide, like, I don't know.
, I'm thinking something has led me here.
It's the path was paved here
long before I became aware of it.
I remember telling the guy, geez, it
feels like my, my dad would passed away.
And my ancestors paved this path
for me to be here for the session
and thinking, that's kind of wild.
Like the road was here.
All I had to do was get on it.
What's the emotion coming up right now as
you reflect on that, seeing your father
and the ancestors that led you there?
Ooh, well, first of all, I was
unexpected to have that, that
feeling and that during that time.
And it comes back to me now, I
mean, it's such a deep experience.
So.
Well, there's just something
beautiful about it.
There's something very magical about it.
Something that I could never really
probably fully understand how
that stuff happens, but you know,
it's like a direct experience.
Yeah.
I feel like gratitude for it.
Like.
Yeah, support, support that
you didn't know was there.
Yeah, with the allies and your ancestors
and that, I'd love to unpack that a little
bit with you because I know you did have
such a heroic journey with cancer and
you have been healed and you're working
towards remission and it's in remission.
What do you know about your ancestors now?
What's the relationship you have with
the people that have come before you?
Well, I, I do think that's
part of the integration.
Like, what do you do with
that direct knowledge?
I mean, you know, when I tried
describing to some of my friends
or my family members, my wife and
stuff, what the experience was like,
I always preface it by saying, you
know, my words are just the tip of the
iceberg of the experience, you know?
So what I'm saying, just know
it's, it's a small portion.
You know what the deep experience was,
but I remember early in the session,
I think the first thing I experienced
was that contact with the ancestors,
which I wasn't expecting at all.
I did not come into the session
thinking I want to connect
with my ancestors, you know,
and how profound that was.
And like, it was kind of like tuning
into a station that has always
been there, but all of a sudden,
you know, you've tuned into it.
And it was incredible.
I remember just thinking, you
know, yeah, we need to, we
need to honor our ancestors.
We need to somehow honor them, bring
them out every now and then and
recognize them and feel that connection.
So when you get home, it's
like, well, how do you do that?
I feel, I think that's part of
the integration that I I'm, I'm
working out because, you know, yeah.
Yeah.
What do you, how do
you, how do you do that?
How do you do that?
And the moment you feel it deeply,
You know, it's a wonderful experience.
Yeah.
And so just like everything
psychedelic, there's no linear time
and you're addressing something
I think deserves energy is how do
you walk with it in a daily life?
Now you have such a cosmic universal
spiritual connection to these
ancestors and these experiences.
, speak to me, physically,
what are you doing now that
you're, as you walk the world?
As far as integration goes.
Yes, please.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, but for, I think it was
just a few days ago, I went for a
hike, , one of my favorite places.
It was a nice sunny day.
Finally.
And in our area, spring is here and I
went for a hike at our local ski resort,
or it's a, it's a nice steep climb up.
So it's a, it's good exercise.
It feels good.
A nice level, beautiful spot at
the top to walk through all these
spruces around the lake and then
back down again and going up.
You know, the whole experience of the of
the journey kind of stays with you quite
a bit, you know, it's such a so impactful.
I remember walking up and
part of my during my session.
I remember like one of the
early things that came up.
You say, You know, the recognition
of the answers, their ancestors was
as a male or masculine archetype
and how deep and profound that
was, you know, connecting with that
masculine energy, which was nothing
I had ever expected or anticipated.
So it came to me to make itself aware.
And I remember thinking also, I need to
stay in touch with this and also honor it.
And recognize it, you know, and
it's something that has also been
here long before I arrived, it
will continue on long after I go,
it's, it's something that's here.
So we're hiking up the hill and thinking,
all right, during my session, I remember
when that whole feeling came, I was
tapping my right foot on the ground and
kind of connecting with the masculine
energy was on the right side for me.
The right side.
So as I'm going up the hill, I remember,
okay, I, You know, I want to just
honor it, recognize it, so I stopped,
just kind of stamped my foot a few
times into the ground, my right foot,
put my weight on it, and just kind of
quieted down, stopped, and just let
that feeling come back again, and what
that masculine energy was like, which
is not macho or anything like that.
It's nothing like we would rec,
you know, think, ordinarily,
and then just continued walking.
You know, I tried not to make like a
heavy, deep experience about it, but
just recognize it, and then continue on.
Yeah.
That's lovely.
And what I really endorse and admire
about what you're doing is this
idea that, hey, I'm connecting with
it, two, I am acknowledging it.
It's alive in my body or in
my psyche in this moment.
And then moving it to a level
that, as you said so beautifully,
not making too big a deal out of
it, but a recognition of sorts.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And later on I had this thought,
it was interesting, it's like,
okay, you know, here's something
that I feel connected to deeply.
I mean,
but it also existed before I was here.
And I think that kind of,
Energy exists for everyone
and will exist without me too.
So all of a sudden you become aware
of you're actually more, you're
more than who you thought you were.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Can you unpack that a little
bit more specifically as it
relates to your personal story?
Is this that I'm more than who I really
thought I was and even your narratives
with cancer or your biographical story?
Well, I think, I think we, we think we're
kind of autonomous creatures, you know,
Kind of like if you picture like a single
celled organism under a microscope.
It's got a boundary to it.
It exists.
And I guess we, for me, I always
thought well, that's how, how,
People are, it's how I am, you
know, you're a solitary organism.
So all of a sudden you realize you're not,
you're part of something much bigger than
yourself, which, which you might think to
yourself, you know, the ordinary reality,
of course there's probably more, but when
you, when you experience it and recognize
it, then you realize, wow, I'm not that,
this autonomous creature I thought it was.
I'm actually part of something
much bigger than myself.
So what does that say about me?
And then that's what I have to
unpack, you know, or unpack.
Right.
Tell me a little bit more about your
comfort level and knowing that we are
much more than our autonomous self.
What lands as we both laugh?
How does that sit with one's self?
That's a good question.
And I had thought about that
during my hike for a while and,
well, it's an adjustment for sure.
You know, I think that
raises a little anxiety.
It's like, well.
When you realize you're not exactly who
you thought you were, in that sense,
that you're actually something more than
you thought you were, which is actually
a pretty beautiful thing to feel that,
I hate to throw around the term, that
cosmic connection, but once you, once
you felt it, and deeply, and realize
it's there, it's like, wow, here's a
new facet of, of life of living of me
that I was not aware of.
So it's like, I don't know, that's
going to be going to be adjustment.
I think for many aspects of the session,
that's an adjustment, the ancestors,
Other things my dad's presence during the
session, you know, yeah, and yeah, what
what I love about this Recognition is this
idea that it can be held and yet we don't
need to make complete sense out of it
But yet through honoring it looking at it
Acknowledging at it no matter what it is.
There's a reassurance.
There's a value but yet when it does
get overwhelming We we have to also be
humbled by the fact that You Hey, this
doesn't need to be clarified or put in
a little box of reassurance or security.
It's a good point, because I think, I
would tend to do that, you know, put it
in a box and try to make sense of it.
Yeah, so say more, say more about
what you're doing now, alternatively
to, to not what I use the swear
word, why, why, why is this where
we don't need to put it in a box?
What can I do?
Well, I think
it's always, I think, a struggle
to live in the moment, to be,
to be present all the time.
So if you stay too long with the thought,
I'm connected to something larger
than myself just because we're
talking about it all the time.
You cannot be present in the moment.
You know, so maybe it's an
awareness to have and to recall,
but also, you know, remember to
come back and be in the moment.
Is it the, what's the expression,
, carry water, chop wood, you know,
just focus on what you're doing.
Right.
Yeah, I take a lot of Reassurance and
that and I respect it and at the end
of the day, like you said earlier,
there's this new revitalization and
renewal of psychedelics So everybody
thinks that this also has to be some
revolutionary healing and what I know
to be true with our relationship is It's
always unfolding and there's evolution.
So if we think of it as a
one stop or we've attained
something, I think we're foolish.
No.
Yeah.
I think so too.
Yeah, I mean, I, I went into, the
session, the session with thinking
that thinking that it was going to be,
this is gonna set everything right.
The intentions you came in with are
going to be addressed, resolved.
But during the session, so
much other stuff comes up.
That's I think.
That I think that the medicine kind
of provides you, I remember telling
my guide, what my intentions were
and, and, and thinking of the, the
stone side, you don't always get what
you want, but you get what you need.
And I think that's what happens.
I, I got some stuff that I wasn't
expecting, like the male archetype,
the female archetype towards
the end, which was incredible,
ancestors, my dad being present in
the session, which was unexpected.
And then the, some of the other stuff I
don't remember so well was some of the, I
remember talking to the guide about, you
know, seeing, I remember seeing a serpent,
a snake, now I wasn't afraid of it.
It wasn't like scary or threatening.
And I, the guide had told me, I talked
about reptiles quite a bit, which I
don't really remember, you know, so
I don't know what to make of that, if
that is some sort of another archetype
or, I don't know, a spirit animal,
a guy, you know, some sort of sure.
Well, I'd love to pause for just a second,
because what you're doing so beautifully
is articulating all the different ways
a psychedelic therapy session can go.
You bring up a really beautiful
point as you're talking about
the ancestors, the archetypes,
the serpents, seeing your father.
We often try to know what the meaning
of it is and you said something about
I don't know exactly if I remember or
recall and what you're addressing so
articulate is, hey, this was an embodied
experience that I felt that I witnessed
and that I saw specifically knowing your
story about seeing your father, there,
there's no way in hell that I would try
to encourage you or challenge you to say,
Oh, this is why this is because, right?
It's like, we need to just trust it.
There's a level of everything
you're saying right now, Dominic,
that I really appreciate.
And I'm wondering if you
could speak more to it.
Just the level of immense trust
that one embarks on through
a big experience like this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, well, uh, the guide I had chosen,
and I think I talked about it earlier,
like I said, had relationship with
established one with and really trusted.
And, , I would say to anybody
out there considering a high dose
medicine session to make sure you find
somebody that you feel confident with.
They can handle whatever comes up, and
who has experience and, , it's not
going to rush you through a session.
And I was willing to spend the time
because I do remember during the
session several times, like there was
a point where I was experiencing like
these spasms that weren't unpleasant,
I really think it was a cleaning out
of blocked energies, stored emotions,
and years of just trauma that had
built up and tightening of muscles
and, and other, I don't know, you know,
and then energy coming into my body,
almost like I was a lightning rod
and having to lean over to my guide
and put my hand, they were sitting
next to me, put my hand on their
knee and said, you need to take this
energy and put it into the earth.
And it just came to me reflexively.
I don't know where that came from,
but I knew that's where it had to go.
It had to be grounded.
It had to be neutralized.
And that came up too.
It's something we do with it.
I don't know if we talked about
much in, in integration, but
it was the generational trauma.
And that, that, that was something I was
not really expecting to have to deal with.
Right.
Well, what I'm hearing you say, and
I'm really, understanding more is
much of it is things that are beyond
our capacity and we need the support.
And so I really love that you talk
about the relationship of the guide.
But more so knowing that
the earth grounding it and
getting it out of our system.
So often we're expected to go,
Oh, what do I do with this?
And what I'm hearing from your story is
I'm not going to do anything with it.
I need to release it, surrender
it and move it through my system.
They did.
And luckily the guy
knew exactly what to do.
and said, I will do that.
I will put that in the earth.
And that happened several
times during the session.
And there was nothing
scary during the session.
It was just like, automatically,
it's like, yes, this is where
this energy needs to go.
This pain or whatever, this
overload, it needs to go.
It needs to go into the earth.
Right.
So, and again, the endorsement of
doing something that was intuitive
to you and you were safe enough to
be witnessed and received by it.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And somebody who was experienced
enough to know that, like,
you know, how to handle it.
And they handled it beautifully.
I felt, I felt like this connection
with the guide where it's like,
there's an energetic connection
where you could pass that on.
You know, whatever the trauma, the
energy and the guy knew exactly what
to do without having to probably
even say anything, you know?
Yeah.
Thank you so much for that,
that imagery in that story.
That leads me to unpack to what
I hear as a harm reduction PSA is
this idea of not going too fast.
I really.
grabbed onto acknowledging the pace
and something I know important from our
integration work together is you really
being reassured by the length of what
needs to be done, and I hear it in your
laughter, but can you read the picture?
Yes, whatever the guy telling me,
after the session, you're going to
want to go back to your where you're
staying, have something light to eat
some fruit or something and be in bed
by like eight o'clock because you're
going to be emotionally drained,
, and you think, okay, yeah, whatever,
you know, I, I think I can handle this
and not realizing how physically and
emotionally, , involved you are and it
takes a toll on you during the session.
And you do need that time after the
session as you start coming back around,
you know, to just be able to stay where
you're at, you know, where the session
is and have somebody who will stay with
you during it and not rush yourself
through the session or be rushed.
So having that extra time
made a world of difference.
And I did have that extra
time because I needed it.
I was just spent.
Yeah, and in that what I'm hearing you
say too is not just in the physical
experience throughout the psychedelic
session but also the idea of Aftercare
and this is resonating so much with
me in this moment within this minute
is Dominic the value and the necessity
did not take this with hubris or, uh,
disregard for your physical body system.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, without getting into too much
detail, I remember after the session,
trying to think, okay, I want to get up,
start moving around a little bit, kind of.
Movement to me has always been
important, you know, getting out, walking
around, hiking with all that stuff.
So that's why I wanted to get outside.
I remember the sun was out.
I wanted to put my feet on the
earth because it just seemed
like the right thing to do.
Start getting my wits about me again and
physically and, and I just feeling like,
ah, you know, I feeling kind of queasy,
you know, I'm going to pass out and I did.
Luckily I got back in to a comfortable
place and, With the help of the guide,
just stayed there for quite a while,
but it was, it was kind of scary for me.
I've only passed out one
other time in my life.
So when I got back home, I just wanted
to be rest assured that I hadn't
had some kind of a medical issue.
I mean, I'm 67, overall good health,
but you know, I had cancer and going
through all kinds of treatments and stuff.
I, so I, I did go, see a doctor.
I didn't describe to the doctor about
having a medicine session, but just told
them all the symptoms, the things that
led up to it, you know, the travel, not
eating properly probably or hydrating
enough, very physical, emotional day and
I passed out and these things happened.
And so he checked me out
thoroughly and, and assured me
that you're absolutely fine.
Nothing happened.
I mean, he did a couple of
tests and stuff and, you know.
EKG and a few things.
And it's like, yeah, next time
you travel, just make sure you
eat enough and stay hydrated.
So it was good to kind of put
that aside and realizing, you
know, yeah, everything's fine.
Well, I appreciate the, the prudence
and the respect you have for your
body and checking things out.
Dominic, what are you doing today in
this moment, within this minute to
walk gently, to be gentle of yourself?
Mm.
Okay.
, Before I get to that question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm going to, I'm going to marinate
that one for a second, but I just want
to mention to anybody who's considering
doing a session, you spend a lot of
time thinking about your intention and
what you want to do with the session.
But I don't think people, myself
included, spend enough time
thinking about integration.
And I think that is just as important.
You know, if you draw a circle
of the experience, half is a
session, half the integration.
So if you spend a lot of time thinking
about the session, also think and
maybe talk to whoever your therapist
is about integration and try to
deal with that as equally as much
because that's a huge part of it.
It's a huge part of it.
So what am I doing to, to, to walk
gently with my gently with myself?
I think the thing I keep coming
back to is give yourself some
grace, you know, and also you need
to give that to other people too.
And for me, grace is
just, allowing yourself to
maybe experience a range of emotions
that you're having, , not to be
too hypercritical of yourself and,
and, and do the same to others too.
Grace.
Grace.
Dominic, I'm humbled by our relationship.
It means the world that you trust me
and your integration process and I'm
indebted to you and appreciate you for
all you do and what you're walking with.
Thank you.
Thank you, Ryan.
And, the same really.
I, yeah, you've been instrumental
in this whole integration and, and,
and dealing with some of the issues
that come up because you just can't
talk, talk with, , people who haven't
experienced it of what it's like, right?
Yeah.
Blessings.
Blessings to you too.