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Welcome to The Drip (formerly Water in Food), where we keep your mind hydrated with some science, music, and a mantra. I'm your host, Zachary Cartwright, lead food scientist at AQUALAB by Addium
Hosted by Zachary Cartwright, Ph.D.
Lead FOOD Scientist at AQUALAB
https://www.aqualab.com/
AI Generated....
WIF 39 Bellis Food Solutions
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[00:00:00] Zachary Cartwright: I'm Zachary Cartwright. This is Water and Food. Today, my guest is Michelle Schwenk, who is the President and Food Science Consultant at Bellus Food Solutions, located in Decatur, Illinois. Michelle leads a team of industry professionals to provide insights into formula development and expertise in scaling up products, as well as technical guidance and testing to entrepreneurs and innovators in the food industry.
[00:00:23] Zachary Cartwright: From confections, baked products, snack foods, fillings. SAUCES, DAIRY FOODS AND MORE, MICHELE'S [00:00:30] BACKGROUND IN CARBOHYDRATE CHEMISTRY, UNDERSTANDING OF WATER ACTIVITY AND MOISTURE SORPTION ISOTHERMS, AND 30 PLUS YEARS IN THE FOOD INDUSTRY ENABLE HER TO GUIDE HER CLIENTS TO SUCCESS. LET'S HEAR WHAT MICHELE HAS TO SAY ON THIS EPISODE OF WATER AND FOOD.
[00:00:44] Zachary Cartwright: Hi Michele, welcome to Water and Food. Thanks for being on the show today.
[00:00:48] Michelle Schwenk: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
[00:00:50] Zachary Cartwright: Why don't you tell us a little bit about your role at Bellis Food Solutions.
[00:00:55] Michelle Schwenk: Okay, so I'm actually the, the founder of Bella's Food [00:01:00] Solutions. I founded it about, um, four, just four and a half years ago or so, and at the time, I had been working for some large ingredient companies for several, for many years, and what I wanted to do was the same kinds of things, but for all the little guys who couldn't, you know, You know, I couldn't take the time to help when I was at the big, the big company.
[00:01:20] Michelle Schwenk: And so when we founded this company, we set up an analytical lab. And so we have testing, um, like water activity and [00:01:30] we have a, a DBS, a dynamic vapor absorption machine. So we can do isotherms. And, and moisture content testing and different things so that that's accessible to the small entrepreneur so that they're making the same kind of deep technical decisions when they're developing their products that you would be making if you were at a great big company.
[00:01:49] Zachary Cartwright: And, and your background is in carbohydrate chemistry. How did you get into that?
[00:01:55] Michelle Schwenk: So I actually have a PhD from the University of Illinois. Um, it was a. [00:02:00] It was a slow process. You know, I started out with a bachelor's, worked for a while, decided I needed a master's to do what I wanted to do, worked for a while, and eventually decided I wanted to get a Ph.
[00:02:10] Michelle Schwenk: D. Um, my Ph. D. is looking at sugars and their thermal stability and how they work, um, in foods. I was able to work in the lab of a doctor at the University of Illinois, Dr. Shelly Schmidt, and she's a world renowned water expert. And so, you know, it A lot of [00:02:30] the training from that lab, you know, really helped me not only understand sugars and carbohydrates, but also, uh, water, because that's...
[00:02:39] Michelle Schwenk: That's kind of the key. And so basically in that whole space is where I, where I ended up and, and throughout my career, I've worked on, um, bulking agents, hydrocolloids, you know, water interactions and things like that. And they all apply strongly to the work that I'm doing now. So mostly, uh, [00:03:00] we work on all different Bellis works on all different kinds of food products, and we have quite a few different scientists and they have expertise in different areas.
[00:03:07] Michelle Schwenk: But all of it, you know, it all relates back to that water, the carbohydrates and the stability of the process. And so, you know, it, it kind of touches all those things.
[00:03:17] Zachary Cartwright: And are there certain types of products, uh, that you specialize in or, or maybe types of companies that you find yourself working with, uh, the most often?
[00:03:24] Zachary Cartwright: I
[00:03:27] Michelle Schwenk: mean, it's actually two, two [00:03:30] different questions, right? So the first thing is what products do we specialize in? So personally, you know, I've seen. taught gummies and jellies at the candy school in the University of Wisconsin for 20 years. And that's kind of a space that I have a lot of expertise and experience in.
[00:03:49] Michelle Schwenk: You can see the gummy bears on my wall. So we, we do get to spend a lot of time in, in those confection products. Um, but I have, but we at [00:04:00] Bellis, I mean, we work in other products as well, including, you know, beverages, fillings, bakery products, and, and all different kinds of things, you know, basically whatever those, those areas would touch in the kinds of customers that we work on, I kind of would say there's four different kinds of customers that we work on, the probably the biggest customers are.
[00:04:25] Michelle Schwenk: Percent of them is entrepreneurs or people who have an idea, um, but [00:04:30] they don't know how to execute it or get it to market. And so they would hire us to help them, uh, consult with them. So any, either if it's product development, or it's, you know, shelf stability or packaging recommendations, or all the things that you need technical help on.
[00:04:44] Michelle Schwenk: A lot of the entrepreneurs are, you know, they don't come from a food science background or from a food background. And so they need to hire somebody like, like us in order to fill in the gaps of their aspirations or where they want to go. Um, another thing kind of customer that we [00:05:00] work on is with different co manufacturers or manufacturers, and that's just helping them troubleshoot their processes, um, helping them scale up different formulas that they get from people and then helping them understand like their.
[00:05:15] Michelle Schwenk: They're curing rooms and how fast that happens. And, you know, the best way to optimize for the most efficient process or, um. You know, how they best can dissolve things or order of additions, or just, you know, that kind of technical help that way. [00:05:30] Another group of customers that we spend a lot of time helping is ingredient companies.
[00:05:37] Michelle Schwenk: Helping them understand their ingredients. You know, even some of the smaller ingredient companies may not have, uh, ways to generate isotherms or ways to look at some of that, or they don't understand at the applications well enough. And so we can help them like, this is what your ingredient does. This is how it works.
[00:05:58] Michelle Schwenk: And these are the best applications [00:06:00] to show it the best and, you know, where it's really going to offer a competitive advantage. And so working with them like that, the last. Group of customers that we work a lot with are just the large established companies as they need, um, extra hands or expertise in a, in a certain area.
[00:06:18] Zachary Cartwright: And I'm really happy to hear that you work a lot with gummies. I, I can't tell you how often I actually. Get calls or questions about gummies. I, it seems to be a really hot [00:06:30] topic right now in the food industry, but also in the cannabis space, um, as well and in making edibles. And so I hope that, uh, this will be good for our listeners because I, I see these questions all the time.
[00:06:41] Zachary Cartwright: So you'll definitely be a good resource there. Can you give us an example of maybe one of your favorite, uh, success stories, a product that you were able to help with?
[00:06:53] Michelle Schwenk: One good example is that we had recently a company that was making some functional gummies, like, uh, like you [00:07:00] mentioned, and they were very sticky and they weren't, they weren't understanding why they were so sticky and the gummies were sanded, but it was a different kind of sand. It wasn't just sugar. I mean, if you don't know what sand it is, you know, it's a dry coating on the outside of the gummy.
[00:07:16] Michelle Schwenk: Usually it's, it's sugar. Sometimes the sugar is mixed with acid. Um, and then sometimes they put other things in that as well. So it's, it's a dry blend on the outside of the candy. So we asked them for a sample of their sand and we [00:07:30] also asked for the sample of their gummies. Um, and then with their sanding blend, we ran an absorption isotherm.
[00:07:36] Michelle Schwenk: And we were able to figure out the deliquescence point of the sanding blend and that helped them because then we knew where where stability would be and actually to fix the problem. We had to do 2 things. 1 is that we had to fix the deliquescence point and raise it up a little bit because it was it was too low.
[00:07:53] Michelle Schwenk: And the 2nd thing that we had to do was dry their candy out a little bit. So you want the candy to be the water [00:08:00] to be the candy to be under the deliquescence point of the sanding blend so that they stay in equilibrium.
[00:08:08] Michelle Schwenk: Yeah. And so by doing those two fixes, we were able to get the candy. So it wasn't sticky. And I, I know like your listeners, I'm sure they all understand telequestence point, but just in case, um, it's basically the, the relative humidity or the, the water activity in which the crystal or the crystal blend in our case, the, the [00:08:30] powder blend absorbs moisture and becomes a syrup.
[00:08:33] Michelle Schwenk: And basically, yeah. You know, like, as a review, the crystals first will just absorb water on the surface of the crystals, like, just on the, um, just on the outside of the surface, and so in that range of an isotherm, you change the relative humidity a lot, but you change the moisture content very, very little, um, and so, and that's kind of the stable part, right?
[00:08:57] Michelle Schwenk: And then at some point, you get to the deliquescence [00:09:00] point, right? Where the water activity is basically not changing very much, but the moisture content is, is changing a lot. So it's, it's absorbing moisture from, in this case, it would have been from the candy, but some cases, cases, it would be from the air, you know, it's absorbing moisture until, because it wants to become a syrup at that water activity.
[00:09:20] Michelle Schwenk: And so, you know, understanding that it's. It's fairly basic food science, although not always taught when you're an undergrad, [00:09:30] but we use it, we use it all the time, and so being able to, you know, quickly run that test, so we knew exactly where we needed to be, both from a candy perspective, and then also from the sanding blend perspective, and then change those, and so that they matched, was, was kind of an eloquent way to, it was an eloquent solution, Um, you know, a high tech solution, but it was fast, right?
[00:09:53] Michelle Schwenk: Instead of doing a whole bunch of tests, like, okay, now I'm going to, now I'm going to change it like this and then see if it works. Now I'm going to change it like this and see if it works. [00:10:00] And unfortunately, see if it works, sometimes it's a couple weeks. Weeks or more process before they start to get sticky.
[00:10:06] Michelle Schwenk: So the fact that we could do all that quickly, um, you know, with just a few days of testing on the machines that we have, that was really nice.
[00:10:14] Zachary Cartwright: So just to kind of summarize having the insights of an isotherm, you know, help you to detect a deliquescence points and, and understand, you know, where that was and then make adjustments to the formula or the, maybe the starting water activity of the gummy.[00:10:30]
[00:10:30] Zachary Cartwright: Um, is there an example of maybe something that you've worked on that wasn't. Quite so straightforward, a formula that was really difficult to understand and, and to, uh, reach your goal with the client.
[00:10:43] Michelle Schwenk: Most of ours are always tricky. That was a neat, that was a straightforward one. Um, we do a lot of work in low sugar products and those are all, um, those are all very tricky because those components, you know, sugar is, is a beautiful thing [00:11:00] and our candy world, especially, right?
[00:11:02] Michelle Schwenk: But really bakery and anything, but you know, we're speaking of candy at the moment. Our candy world is totally centered or designed around the properties of sugar. So anytime that we switched to a low sugar products, then it changes everything. Nothing behaves just like sugar. And like, for instance, we just recently did a formulation where we were going to do something new.
[00:11:27] Michelle Schwenk: It wasn't a gummy. And so what we did was we [00:11:30] took all the components, all the different sugar components or sugar replacing components, and we did isotherms on them. And then we were able to formulate from there where we kind of wanted to be in a blend in order for that to happen. But a lot of times it's that back and forth research, because, you know, as you're balancing molecular weights, you know.
[00:11:51] Michelle Schwenk: And you have just a limited number of ingredients that you can use, uh, you know, trying to get that, that perfect blend so that it stays soft throughout the shelf [00:12:00] life and it's stable. You know, that's always fun.
[00:12:04] Zachary Cartwright: And you mentioned some of the equipment and the testing that you do and water activity is one of them.
[00:12:09] Zachary Cartwright: How does your team use water activity to make Informed decisions about product development, especially when it comes to scaling up products, because you're working with these smaller companies that want to be companies. How do you use water activity to help them achieve that goal?
[00:12:25] Michelle Schwenk: Yeah, so we use water activity every single day because we [00:12:30] don't, uh, when we dry our candy or when we're baking our products, we don't.
[00:12:34] Michelle Schwenk: We don't dry our candy to a solid content. We literally try to a water activity. So we use that as a quality determination of when the candy is done. And that way, we know that we have a stable product. Also, when you can use water activity in the lab, it's much. It's more consistent than trying to read a refractometer or, you know, because.
[00:12:55] Michelle Schwenk: For other, you know, for lots of reasons, right? Refractometers are either [00:13:00] subjective or they're because they're handheld or they're, um, if you need a bench top one, they're still based on how you're going to prep the sample and things like that. So, the water activity meter, you know, you put it in there and every time it basically is telling you the moisture content.
[00:13:15] Michelle Schwenk: by way of the water activity. So, you know, you dry it the same every single time. So we literally use it every single day. Uh, and, and, you know, I've even tried to figure out better ways in order to bring them to the plants when I [00:13:30] go, um, to show them how useful they are and, and those kinds of things. So that's, I guess that's the main way.
[00:13:38] Michelle Schwenk: And then when we get, I mean, sometimes when you're formulating, so you're going to use water activity in order to formulate better. So, for instance, we did a bakery product that had both a filling and a frosting, and so we had to develop each of the components separately, um, and then make sure that our water activities were the same, so that we had a [00:14:00] stable product in the end, because of course, water always wants to be at equilibrium.
[00:14:03] Michelle Schwenk: So, yeah. If you have three components, they need to be at equilibrium, or you need to anticipate the fact that the water is going to move and it's going to be okay in order for the product to be, to be shelf stable so that, you know, it doesn't migrate or whatever during those processes. And then another thing that we do, we do a lot of product quality testing for our clients.
[00:14:28] Michelle Schwenk: So, you know, for [00:14:30] instance, our clients, a lot of times come from a business and marketing background and, and where they're higher technical health. And so we stay on staff, um, monitoring things like the pH, you know, solids and things that their comands are making, but also one of the key things that we're always monitoring is the water activity.
[00:14:48] Michelle Schwenk: And, um, making sure that we are staying in those things. It's the best predictor of the shelf life and both from a quality and also of course, a micro perspective that, that we can use. [00:15:00] So, uh, we're monitoring that all the time and for those different
[00:15:03] Zachary Cartwright: ways. And then you, you also mentioned that you're doing some moisture isotherm testing and you, uh, related that back to deliquescence points, but what other things can you do with the isotherm testing to help your clients?
[00:15:19] Michelle Schwenk: Well, I mentioned that we were using it in order to decide which, um, which blend of sweeteners that we would have or bulking agents that we would have in a certain formulation [00:15:30] that we were working on. Um, so we use it for that way. Another thing that we did is, um, there was a company that we had that was doing a baked bid, and they were in the Pacific Northwest.
[00:15:40] Michelle Schwenk: So if you know the Pacific Northwest, it can get a little humid. And so we helped them by, by understanding the average humidity that they were going to be storing it at in that space during the different times of the year. And then using the isotherm on their end product in order to know what their critical water activity was.
[00:15:58] Michelle Schwenk: you know, where it would start to [00:16:00] fail or be outside of a quality that would be appropriate. And then we were able to use the water vapor transfer rate from the packaging, or actually we screened a few different packagings for them, so that, with different water vapor transfer rates. And we were able to predict a shelf life so that they could decide, you know, Okay, so I have this.
[00:16:22] Michelle Schwenk: If this relative humidity during the winter in the Pacific Northwest, plus this packaging, I'll have this shelf life, you know, and where do [00:16:30] I need to be as far as, uh, those, all those things are concerned. And so that's another thing that we use for the isotherms for predictions. We had a, we had a client who had a series of, it was an ingredient company, and they had a series of different ingredients, but in the same space.
[00:16:50] Michelle Schwenk: Uh, And then due to a few different factors without getting very technical, but some of them had a little bit different, uh, carbohydrate profile, and then [00:17:00] also they had different drying methods that they, you know, presented. So we ran isotherms on them, and they actually ended up having some different kinds of, um, isotherm behaviors, you know, and so we were able to tell them, okay, based on their behavior with moisture, you know, or different relative humidities, And then projecting that to applications.
[00:17:22] Michelle Schwenk: These are going to work best in these spaces. And these other ones that have this different behavior are going to work not in that, you know, not in that application, but in these [00:17:30] other applications. So helping them understand, you know, where would be the next best place to take those ingredients and sell them to be successful, both, you know, for their clients.
[00:17:39] Michelle Schwenk: And of course, they want to sell more. But then if you're using them in the right space. then their clients are going to be happy because they're going to work
[00:17:49] Zachary Cartwright: well. And if there's somebody listening today that has an innovative idea about a food product, but they're not necessarily a food scientist or they don't have a food science team to back them, [00:18:00] what would working with your team look like?
[00:18:02] Zachary Cartwright: What, what is the process to get that started?
[00:18:07] Michelle Schwenk: So our favorite clients are the ones that we can be complete partners with, where we feel like we're a member of their team. Essentially, like we're, I mean, we're their employees, right? They hired us. So it's, it's a, a partnership. And so sometimes when you're on the formulation side, so you just, you're basically still at your idea side.
[00:18:27] Michelle Schwenk: Um, then it's, uh, [00:18:30] then it's, um, planning and formulating and doing a lot of testing. We have a lot of back and forth to that. Sampling, which is everybody's favorite part, right? Actually getting to taste what you're working on. Uh, then they usually, you know, give feedback to how this is... Meeting their expectations or not.
[00:18:46] Michelle Schwenk: And you know, there's a back and forth process from that, and then you basically kind of cycle through those back and forth samplings until you end up with the formula that you're ready to go. Uh, then we type that up because you have to have an [00:19:00] understanding. Um, what you do in the lab is not exactly what you're gonna do in the plant, so you have to essentially write the formula then so that the plant could make it.
[00:19:10] Michelle Schwenk: So you have to kind of have an understanding of how plants work and how that's different from the lab. So you write that, the formula up, and then you take it out, you help, you know, you would go and find the FOMANS with, with your partner, and then go take that to the FOMANS, process it in the plant, and then hopefully get it in some stable packaging that you've predicted what you need [00:19:30] for your shelf life, and, uh, and then get it on the shelf.
[00:19:33] Michelle Schwenk: So, including the labels and all the different things. So it's that from, from idea to production, we like to say it's, it's a, it's a long iterative process. But we have some clients that we've worked with so that they have started from just their idea and then we've come back later and, and help them know, okay, you know, let's help you innovate for what your next products are, you [00:20:00] know, or you have this niche here and this niche, you know, you have it in whatever, maybe the gummy space, but this niche is also missing in these other spaces.
[00:20:09] Michelle Schwenk: Let's help you develop into those spaces. So helping with the innovation. Thank you, Shane. and understanding like where they're, what their space is and where that's going to work best. That's another thing that we really enjoy doing as well. And
[00:20:21] Zachary Cartwright: realistically, you know, if I came to you with it, my own innovative idea, how quickly could I get it to, to a production phase?[00:20:30]
[00:20:31] Michelle Schwenk: Oh, that's a good question. Um, it, it totally depends on how innovative your idea is. Right? So, I mean, of course, sometimes. ideas include doing different processes. We have a client now that we're really excited to work with. They showed their product at Sweets and Snacks and it was a very innovative process.
[00:20:55] Michelle Schwenk: But it's not something that's on the market. And the process is not something [00:21:00] that's on the market today. And so they had to invest both in trying to figure out how they're going to make that with existing equipment, but also what they were going to make and what ingredients that they were going to do.
[00:21:11] Michelle Schwenk: And some, the ingredients usually inform the process, and the process informs the ingredients, and so when neither one exists, it's quite a, quite a fun adventure. Um, but we are all really happy to see, you know, the success when that happens. Um, but sometimes it is an investment of equipment, but most of the time, uh, most of the things are, [00:21:30] we can use existing, uh, commands and equipment and get things going that way, so.
[00:21:37] Michelle Schwenk: The way that we work, uh, at Bellis is that when you work with us, you own the formula. Basically, you hire us as an extension of your company, and so you own the information that we, you know, that we generate, and you own the formula and things like that, which is an advantage because a lot of times people will go to the co mans, and the co man will develop the formula, but then when they need to [00:22:00] To grow and they, and they need to go somewhere else.
[00:22:03] Michelle Schwenk: They don't own that. And so, you know, they can't really, they're not at liberty to grow at the same pace that they might want to or whatever. And so, and then sometimes when you're in, in sometimes when you're in a space with a co man or with a current process, you know, When they're making the decisions about your brand, there may be doing what's best for their company.
[00:22:25] Michelle Schwenk: Whereas we can really make the decisions like what's best for the brand and what's best for the [00:22:30] product and not necessarily, you know, what's best for my processing company, you know, so hopefully, uh, that's kind of what we get to do. And I love working with the entrepreneurs. Sorry. I love working with the entrepreneurs just because they're so passionate and they have such good ideas.
[00:22:48] Michelle Schwenk: Um, when I was working at ingredient companies for so long, um, a lot of the big companies that you end up working with at ingredient companies, they might have scientists that are innovative, but a lot of [00:23:00] the hands get tied just, you know, by corporate, right? Whatever that means. So the, the, the entrepreneurs that end up coming to us, they really give me a lot of energy because they don't know that they can't do things.
[00:23:13] Michelle Schwenk: They just want to try. And so then, you know, those are the fun projects that we get to work on. When somebody calls me and I'm like, I have no idea how we're going to do that. Then I'm like, yeah, that's going to be perfect. That can't be done. Okay. I definitely want to do it. And
[00:23:28] Zachary Cartwright: I, I definitely see that a lot.
[00:23:29] Zachary Cartwright: You know, [00:23:30] I work with a lot of different food scientists at all sizes of companies, but sometimes I, I approach them and they see the technology. They understand the need for a formulation change or a process change, but there's just so many regulations or. hurdles sometimes that it makes it hard, even though that would be best for the product or the brand or whatever it is.
[00:23:48] Zachary Cartwright: So I, I completely understand. Well, moving forward. What's next, uh, for Bellus food solutions? What's what's the next year or five years or 10 years look like, what are your goals [00:24:00] as you move forward?
[00:24:03] Michelle Schwenk: Oh, that's a great question. So we have a couple exciting things that we're working on. Uh, one of the. First, hopefully, uh, you're the first to hear about this, but hopefully later this year, uh, we're gonna be launching a, uh, a website that will be kind of a house of knowledge.
[00:24:23] Michelle Schwenk: You know, you mentioned a lot of different kinds of people that are making, especially candy, right now, um, [00:24:30] we're going to focus the website first on, on candy knowledge, but there's a lot of kind of, there's a lot of people that need information that are smaller, and so maybe they can't even afford to hire us yet, because they haven't grown big enough, um, and so we're trying to build a house, a website that would have a lot of that information, and And kind of work as a beginning training for, for some of those things you that kind of go to place for, for information.
[00:24:55] Michelle Schwenk: So that's, that's exciting. And we're continuing to grow out our, um, [00:25:00] maybe I would call it analytical capabilities. So that we keep being a place that can answer the hard technical questions for people and yeah, basically make those same things accessible and approachable to all the different kinds of people so that, you know, it's, it's not us in a kitchen in our house trying to do something, but we're like, really doing science and doing it the best way possible in order to efficiently give you the best product that you can.
[00:25:28] Michelle Schwenk: So as we will [00:25:30] continue to build out those, We have a lab in Decatur, Illinois, which is where I'm talking to you from today. And we've been remodeling it for a couple of years. So we do have our, um,
[00:25:46] Michelle Schwenk: We do have our license from the health department, and so we are able to, uh, you know, sell the products that we make from there. We don't really need to manufacture large amounts of products. You know, everything's still small scale, but at least we [00:26:00] have confidence knowing that we're inspected and things like that.
[00:26:02] Michelle Schwenk: And then we also have that permanent analytical lab, which has been really nice. Uh, to use. So those are, those are kind of the exciting things on the horizon.
[00:26:10] Zachary Cartwright: And are you looking to hire now or maybe sometime soon in the future? Are you looking for new people for that lab, um, who might be listening, thinking about changing jobs or maybe in grad school looking for that next job?
[00:26:22] Michelle Schwenk: Yeah. If you have a, if you have a passion for, for this kind of work, then we're always interested. Um, [00:26:30] I guess. I guess we're always interested in the people that have the same kinds of passions that we do.
[00:26:39] Zachary Cartwright: So, yeah, I can't tell you how we have, we have, Oh, go ahead.
[00:26:45] Michelle Schwenk: I was just going to say, we have people both here in Decatur in our main lab, but then we also have scientists that work remotely as well.
[00:26:52] Michelle Schwenk: So we have the whole great, good to know.
[00:26:54] Zachary Cartwright: I get asked all the time about open positions and things. So I like to make sure to ask that question and it sounds like [00:27:00] you're growing and you're looking for enthusiastic people. So. I'm sure somebody out there listening will probably reach out to you.
[00:27:08] Michelle Schwenk: Yes. If you're a food nerd, we love you.
[00:27:10] Michelle Schwenk: And even if we don't want to hire you, we want to network with you.
[00:27:13] Zachary Cartwright: Oh, well, Michelle, I just want to thank you so much for your time. This has been a really fun podcast. I know we've worked with each other for several years now and. Uh, again, I'm, I'm sure many people listening will come to you from this with, especially with gummy questions.
[00:27:29] Zachary Cartwright: So, [00:27:30] uh, look, look out for that. Uh, but again, thank you so much for coming on the show and, and we'll have to have you back sometime and get an update on how things are going.
[00:27:41] Michelle Schwenk: Great. That sounds great. And I, I know we'll be talking more here soon because I have a few questions.
[00:27:46] Zachary Cartwright: Well, happy to help. Well, thank you again.
[00:27:49] Zachary Cartwright: I'm Zachary Cartwright. This is Water and Food. Find this podcast on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.[00:28:00]