Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A podcast for fundraisers who want ideas, examples and inspiration to help you raise more money for your charity or non-profit.
Rob is an author and award-winning fundraising trainer. Each week he and his guests share examples of successful fundraising, as well as lots of practical tips to help you apply these techniques in your own job.
Hi. This is Rob. Welcome back to the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast. This time, we're looking at how to be transparent and kind in your communication instead of succumbing to the temptation to be nice. The person I've learned most from on this topic is the brilliant leadership coach, Paul McKenzie from Giant Steps.
Speaker 1:Paul is a very experienced fundraiser with roles leading teams and departments at various UK charities, including Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital charity, De Paul, and Teenage Cancer Trust.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes our desire to be nice gets in the way of what we actually need. Being nice instead of being kind is a big issue. We're a sector that's full of people who care about people, and therefore there is a lot of feeling about how do we look after people. And I think sometimes we forget about what actually looking after people is, and I think there is a difference about supporting people and protecting people. NICE protects the mood.
Speaker 2:Kind protects the mission. It protects the thing that you're trying to do, whereas NICE in that moment protects the mood.
Speaker 1:Hey, Paul. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Hey, Rob. How are doing?
Speaker 1:I am really well. Thank you. I'm excited to catch up with you. I always enjoy our chat, so always leave with some of insights and a little bit more fire in my belly after our chats. So thank you for making time.
Speaker 1:So our listeners, if they go back a year or two, they'll be aware that you've done at least a couple of these sessions for us before, often to do with leadership as well as fundraising topics. In case they don't know you, what's your job now? And top line, how did you get to be doing what you do now?
Speaker 2:My job now is I am a fundraising consultant, so I have been for two and a half years. My consultancy is called Giant Steps. I got asked recently what's my brand story, which I thought was really funny because I think they were looking for something. Do you help organizations take transformational weeks? And I went, no.
Speaker 2:I'm just really tall. So my brand story is isn't as impressive as I think people want it to be. And I and I was I've been in fundraising for about twenty three years. So I I was director of fundraising comms at Teenage Cancer Trust. Before that, the same role at the Pol UK, and then I was lucky enough to work at roles at Batsy Dolls and Council, made UK action for children.
Speaker 2:And then I've worked with about 36 charities since I became a consultant. So, yeah, I'm very much enjoying it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And over the years, now and again, you've done these live sessions and workshops for our Bright Spot membership, which we always really enjoy. And, you also did an excellent talk with Liz Tate at one of my earliest Breakfast Club for Fundraising Leaders, which I still remember and and still quote certain of those ideas you were talking about to do with cultures in charities. So you're great at fundraising, but also a a key angle for you is understanding culture, dynamics, leadership, and so on. The session you did with our Bright Spot members the other day was on that kind of topic.
Speaker 1:I guess we could set it up in terms of you talk to so many different charities, large and small, and, of course, various things are difficult. But the other day when we met for a little chat over lunch, you said there's this key thing that in almost every charity, it's going on that's holding us back. If you introduce this topic with what you said to me.
Speaker 2:So yeah. So, like, I think the charity set is filled with brilliant people who care about each other. We wanna feel supported. We wanna have a creative, positive culture. We all wanna be decent human beings, which is a lovely reason why we're all in this sector.
Speaker 2:Right? But I think sometimes our desire to be nice gets in the way of what we actually need. And I've been con increasingly convinced that I do quite a lot of mentoring and leadership work that being nice instead of being kind is a big issue. And there's a there's an author called Graham Olcott who wrote Productivity Ninja, which is a great book. But he also recently wrote a book called Kind, which is talks about this difference between being nice and being kind and how kindness is not about being soft or fluffy.
Speaker 2:It's about being honest, clarity, courage. And I think when I look at things across the sector, whether it's feedback, challenge, being able to make good asks, the donors having difficult conversations, so much of it sits in people's heads around the difference between being nice and being kind.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Maybe lots of businesses have the same problem, but what's your take on why it's so prevalent in our sector?
Speaker 2:I guess I think we're we're a sector that's full of people who care about people, and therefore, there is a lot of feeling about how do we look after people. And I think sometimes we forget about what actually looking after people is, and I think there is a difference about supporting people and protecting people. And I think a lot often, we have a a lot of protection in our sector of the people we might manage or lead and not enough support, and there is a difference. But it's a bit like so silly story, Rob, but run with me. So you and I, Rob, are gonna we're going to an event.
Speaker 2:Right? And you turn to me and you say, Paul, how am I looking? And I look at your face. You've got a massive chunk of ham on your face from your breakfast. And I go, Rob, you look great.
Speaker 2:You look fab. You're gonna be like, you go for it. And off you go into your day. Now that interaction between me and you is nice. There is no awkwardness.
Speaker 2:There's no embarrassment. You feel good about yourself. But my guess is the outcomes from that day is not gonna be good for you because you look ridiculous with a massive piece of ham on your face. Right? Now if we turn to the other option, and to me, that's being nice.
Speaker 2:If I am kind, I turn to you and go, Rob, I'll be honest. You look ridiculous. You have a massive piece of harm in your face, and if you don't sort it out, it's gonna be bad. Now you are awkward. You're embarrassed.
Speaker 2:You think I think badly of you because you haven't got ready properly in the morning. However, you deal with it and have a much better day. The training session you do later, the presentation goes much better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the difference is nice protects the mood. Kind protects the mission. It protects the thing that you're trying to do, whereas NICE in that moment protects the mood. And I think that is the big difference in so many different situations in the day to day is seeing that ridiculous metaphor play out in the workplace. Because I think fundraising's full of hammer in your face moments.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if we don't talk about them, then they're they're gonna eat away at what we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I guess our listener might have appearing in their mind now examples of when we're not as honest as we could have been. In a way it was understandable why we weren't or why our colleague wasn't, but ultimately it didn't serve anyone, including the mission. Have you got an example though, of how this has played out either in your work or with people you've coached?
Speaker 2:So I and I I one of the most common spaces is in performance. You see this quite a lot. Though we're a sector where we really wanna develop and hold on to talent at the moment, and I I interestingly enough, like, if you talk to a lot of senior leaders, they say that we're losing kind of this sort of officer manager people are leaving or going moving quickly between jobs. So we really have to do something about that. And then there was a big issue around being kind of being nice around performance.
Speaker 2:So if I give you an example, I remember I walked into an organization, and there was a person whose you went in, I was told their performance wasn't good. Actually, when I started to talk to them, I realized they had never been told that their performance wasn't any good. They've been told they were nice, and they're doing and they were told they were lovely, and they were told they were doing useful things. But outside, every the main leader said, this person isn't good enough. They're not she's not getting the job done.
Speaker 2:But for three years, no one had really spoken to her about this, and and that is not unusual. I think I'm sure your listeners are sitting there going, yeah. I have had that instance, or I haven't told the person I needed to tell that thing. And what happened, I ended up having to have a conversation where I said, look. This is where I need you to be.
Speaker 2:This is the support I can give you. Like, how do you wanna deal with this? How do you wanna do it? And I supported her. I was kind.
Speaker 2:I told her the honest truth, and she actually decided to leave the sector. The thing that I think is that what happens is in performance, we tell ourselves we're protecting the person by not telling them the information. We have that thing we desperately want to tell them that's not good enough. They're not doing this. They're frustrating me.
Speaker 2:You go into the meeting and you don't see it, and you tell yourself that's for them, and it isn't, it's for you. Right? The whole confidence you are avoiding you don't want the awkwardness. You don't want them to be upset. It's not that you're worried.
Speaker 2:If we're really honest to ourselves, yes, there was a worry about them being upset, but it's so it's a worry that you're going to have to experience that or be part of that or do that. Yeah. And therefore, what we do is we don't say the thing. We say everything but, but we don't say the thing we need to say. And that is stealing development.
Speaker 2:NICE steals development. It is nice to say, no. You're doing great. It is kind to say, I have to be honest, at the moment, Your presentation isn't working isn't as good as it could be. I've got ideas.
Speaker 2:I wanna support you. You can get there. You're a talented individual, but you need to improve this if you're gonna get your next role, if you're gonna take the step up. How can I help you do that? That is kind.
Speaker 2:Nice to say, no. You're doing fab. And I like, if and I if you ask Rob, if I said to you, how did you get to where you are in your career right now? My guess is someone dropped you in it a few times and you had to work your way out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or someone supported you and said, believe in you, but go do this on your own. Mhmm. And they gave you feedback and they told you where you could be better. And if you don't do that, you're stealing development from people. And I find it really interesting that you talk to lots of leaders and you go, my my team just keep, you know, keep coming to me with questions, no answers, and I feel like a bottleneck and my team aren't aren't coming up to me and aren't doing as well as I need them to.
Speaker 2:And you ask, have you told them? And the amount of people got it. Not really. So your expectation is you're annoyed that they're not getting to you, but, actually, you haven't told anyone. Well, why would it change?
Speaker 1:This all makes sense, Paul. I guess there is another perspective in terms of are we being nice, or are we being kind in a bigger sense to the organization?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think when I think about organizational politics or working stakeholders or peers, like, for me, nice keeps the peace. Kindness protects the work. Right? So nice makes every you're you got on really well with your colleagues, but kindness actually protects the work, protects the organization.
Speaker 2:How are you gonna be kind to your organization? So, like, can give you an example. I started a a role once, and I walked in, and there was a massive organizational project happening that I had a big part to play as one of the leaders in the organization. And I went around all the heads of, and I said, how is this project going? And all of them told me it was heading not where they wanted it.
Speaker 2:They were worried about how it was gonna affect income. They were worried it wasn't going in the right direction. It was gonna hit deadlines, a range of different worries, every single person. And when I asked them, have you said anything to the person? They were, oh, no.
Speaker 2:Because it's happening anyway, and I don't wanna like, it's quite awkward and it's difficult, and I don't wanna upset her, and she's working really hard and, you know, she's got a lot on. And it was all these reasons about how we were looking after her. Right? We were being nice to her, which is fine. But the the problem is that the organization had a massive project happening, and all these leaders who held the responsibility for these massive income streams had not pointed out to anyone that they thought it was a bad idea.
Speaker 2:Now I don't think I say that and your listeners go, that's unusual. I've never heard of that situation. I believe it happens a lot. You see every time you go into an organization. And I think the the thing I did now is I went and sat down with the person and I said, look, I've spoken to everyone.
Speaker 2:There were some issues that are going to affect this project. And my concern for you and the organization is that if we don't pay attention, we don't do something about these blockers, the project will not have a good outcome. How can I help you fix these things that aren't happening and get this over the line? Now she didn't enjoy it because she was like, why haven't people told me this? And this feels a bit awkward because I'm not doing my job brilliantly.
Speaker 2:I was like, you are doing your job brilliantly. It's just things we have to like, I wanna work with you. Now that was kind. Now what I would imagine if you play that through without that interaction is a million quid goes missing out of the IG pot because that project doesn't work well. In what way was that a kind thing to do to the organization, the people you support, the people that don't get to spend a million quid anymore?
Speaker 2:And it gets lost in organizations. It's a similar thing that happens in t in meetings. I talk about this all the time. But if you're sitting in a meeting and you you hear someone say something, and in your brain, you come up with the best TED Talk esque reply that says this person isn't quite right. They've got it wrong, and we need to change that in it.
Speaker 2:But your answer in your head is amazing. Right? Your hand does not go up. The meeting moves on. You leave the room and you sit with your colleague and you moan about the fact that this organization is getting this wrong and they said, why are we not doing something about this?
Speaker 2:In six months time, that thing doesn't work And you go, I told you so. I knew it wasn't ever gonna work. But because you were nice and you didn't want the awkward moment or to stand out, you didn't put your hand up. And the kind thing for that project, that organization was to put your hand up and see the thing. Because often, for leaders, you are the expert.
Speaker 2:And if you're not putting your hand up, you are that is not a kind thing to do to your organization and the people that are trying to do good work. And again, it's that difference between saying, don't wanna ruin the meeting. I don't, you know, I don't wanna upset the person. It's in you that you're not putting that out there, but I'll be honest. Like, I find that I'm just prepping for this session to put my hand up and to give an opinion I'm petrified of.
Speaker 2:I have to I sat and write notes over and over again for, two hours, Rob, to make sure I could come on this. Like, it is difficult, but it makes a difference when you do do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It reminds me of an excellent book that you and I have talked about before called The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle. And the short version of how the book came about is he went and studied very high performing teams in Navy SEALs, and there's an extremely successful improv comedy troupe. There's even a a troupe of, surprisingly successful bank robbers who, for years, were incredibly successful. So I'm not making a comment on their morals and legality, but Coyle was fascinated.
Speaker 1:Wherever there was a team that was unbelievably effective, more effective than its peers, he studied how communication happened and so on. And the key thing I remember from that book is there's an atmosphere of safety, emotional safety, not to be nice, but because we care about the mission so much. If the safety whereby people feel they can speak up or you as a leader do speak up, it's that honesty that enables the team to continually find ways to make things better, and people then don't feel bad about that robust discussion. But, crucially, the psychological safety maximizes the chances that anyone, including, for instance, the least hierarchically important person in any group, feels if they think something, they can voice it, which doesn't, by the way, mean that the leader then has to decide to take it all on. But the more we are creating that environment and as a leader modeling that behavior, I think that's some of what enables everyone to feel that we really do want to know your opinion.
Speaker 2:Yeah. One of my pet hates is when core organisations have this issue, they call it we're going to have challenging conversation issues. I think the issue when you call it that is this word challenge makes it sounds like there's going to be some sort of combat. Like, please take your sword with you to marketing Fundraising because you're going to have to really. And the issue is the more you think about it like combat, the more you think about it as an argument, then, you know, how many organizations I walk into that say, oh, fundraising and marketing disagree.
Speaker 2:But the concept of fundraising and marketing is they will disagree. That is the power of fundraising and marketing. Fundraising wanna do a 100 things, marketing wanna do one, put those two things together, you're gonna get a good result. The thing that fixes those two things together and makes it work is the organizations that's worked is there's honesty. There is a happiness to say, I'm not sure that works for me.
Speaker 2:How do we do this together? How do we work out a compromise? How do we get to the right place? And it's the honesty that makes a big difference there. And that is not doesn't have to be this big challenging scary conversation if you get in the habit of just sit being honest and saying, can I just challenge that a second?
Speaker 2:And and say the thing it's there's no fight. There's not an argument. And I think what happens is people sit go back into the corner. It becomes a bigger and bigger and bigger thing that you want to say, and then it never gets said.
Speaker 1:And within that, there's a current assumption that it's so much more easy and likely to succeed if it's an actual conversation because we deal with the uncertainty of being in a room together. Ideally, an in person room, but if not possible nowadays, at the very least a virtual room, but it's a conversation rather than emails firing back and forth with these opinions where there is very little room for nuance and finding common ground within what a person really meant or why they initially made that comment, that's ever so hard unless it's an actual conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and and the conversation is about helping. Like, if we're think going back to the kind, is how are you helping that individual to deliver this thing? Because the thing you have to say is going to help them. They may not like it.
Speaker 2:They may not initially agree with it. But if you're coming from Fundraising to see marketing, this isn't gonna work for us, You are helping them. They may not enjoy that, but you have to think like, who were they, where they are, how's it going for them, and how do I find a way of having an honest conversation that helps them feel supported and that they were both trying to go in the same direction? Because the organization needs you to do that. If is not about fundraising or marketing or HR or finance.
Speaker 2:There is an organization trying to make a difference to a group of individuals. How are you helping that organization succeed? You need to have an honest conversation. So a lesson I learned, I used to work with Liz Tate, who is now a Great Ormond Street Hospital charity, before that I worked with her at Bats who does in Catson. She's awesome and one of the things she used to do is I when I came complaining or fed up or going saying this is going to be very hard, she was very good at reframing it into what do the dogs and cats need.
Speaker 2:So let's think about what is the best outcome for the dogs and cats that we support. Should we do that? But, see, she does the same thing at Gosh with children, and it is the best way to reframe the either if you're a manager or even to yourself, the problem that you're facing. Because if we're honest, how hard it is for you to go and have a slightly tricky conversation with the head of HR relative to the issues facing your service users, my guess is your issue is quite small. No offense.
Speaker 2:So how you reframe and go, actually, if I just have to go upstairs and have a conversation with HR, maybe it's not that bad. And I think that as a leader, I took on that as often trying to how do I reframe this back to cause? How do I use that to get people to think about actually how difficult is this? I think it can be really helpful. And I and I think the thing the thing I would say is, again, your listeners, if you think about your key stakeholders across the organization, again, write their names down.
Speaker 2:And I said, what's the one thing that you need to say to them, the the conversation that you have to have? Where is it you need to put your hand up? And you wrote that thing down. Again, my challenge is how do you go and tell? Because every time you write one of these things down and don't see it, future self six months down the line is gonna be really annoyed that the your IG program just fell through the floor because marketing just went off and did that thing, and you didn't tell them.
Speaker 2:You can't moan about it. Like, it's like you cannot go you can't go to the pub and moan about something you never said something about.
Speaker 1:Yes. This makes sense. So that's an extra little thing our listeners could choose to do, which is not to say that you're just gonna say that thing, and that's the end of the conversation. Of course, you're gonna be emotionally intelligent, and you might not need to hear some things from them as well and be a good listener and not be defensive. But the starting point is write it down, and that increases the chances that you will do it.
Speaker 1:By the way, I was in my Major Gifts Mastery program day two yesterday, and I just remembered there was someone in the morning where we all share something we've done that we're pleased with in the last couple of weeks. And there was a fundraiser who was in your session about two weeks ago in our Bright Spot membership, and the thing she was really proud of is she had done that very thing you've just asked our listeners to do. She'd gone and had that honest face to face conversation with one of her colleagues in a different team. And absolutely, now they had solved it and solved it together. I promise you, it doesn't solve all of the challenges of fundraising, but this is a really great starting point.
Speaker 1:This habit that Paul just said, and I very dare you to follow through on a couple of these things that you're about to write down.
Speaker 2:Can I just say the thing I would say about that is I built a career on being the guy who didn't mind going to have that conversation? And And I think if you're looking at your career and thinking how do I develop? In a virtual world, a remote world, if you're the person who halfway presses the big red button to phone someone and have a conversation or go up the stairs or meet someone for a coffee and say the thing and come up with a solution, you are priceless to organizations and leaders.
Speaker 1:That also is a really helpful extra little carrot to our motivations when we're stealing ourselves to do these things. One more angle when you did the talk the other day was about the implications of this tendency to avoid uncomfortable feelings and sense of awkwardness. It has an implication on the day job of fundraising as well. Can you talk about how that pans out?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, like and when I think about asking, I'm thinking it could be IG program or or it could be a major donor, whatever it might be. But what you see in asking around is that nice runs away from the awkward, and kindness gives people the choice. And what I mean by that, if I give you an example. So I remember I was going to see a major donor, and I was convinced I was making a £100,000 ask.
Speaker 2:I'd done the research. I knew they had the money. I knew everything about them. We'd done all the buildup meetings. They'd seen the support work, all that stuff.
Speaker 2:And I went in, and I started talking to them. And I think anyone who does this job will know this moment where they don't seem like they're loving me. They don't seem like the conversation's going well. They haven't said anything. There were no words coming from them, but my everything inside me is saying that this isn't gonna work.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I'm certain about this. I don't think they're gonna say yes. They've still not said anything to suggest that, but I am reading it. And what happens is I don't want to ask for a 100 k. It feels awkward.
Speaker 2:It feels difficult. So I say 20. Almost instantly, the person says, fine. I'll consider it. And about two days later, get an email saying yes.
Speaker 2:Now my big lesson in fundraising is if the person says yes too quick, then you haven't asked for enough. But that's a separate thing altogether. But, anyway, about four weeks later, it was announced that another organization had £250,000 from the same donor, and I later on, months later, spoke to the Fundraiser, and he'd basically just given him a choice. He had gone for the difficult conversation, had spoken to him about what that money would do, had explained everything that that money would achieve. The person went away, took a week to look at it, came back with £250,000.
Speaker 2:Now my belief is I didn't want the awkward moment. I wanted that conversation to be nice. I wanted it to be comfortable, but what it did was I stole the option from my donor, stole the option to understand the difference they could make. I stole the option to be able to tell them, actually, here is what this money could do. Here is what the difference you could make.
Speaker 2:Now and I gave them choice. And I and rarely in fundraising, a major fundraising, do you get a no because you asked for too much. And you're probably gonna get a no either way. And if they can't do that, they'll tell you differently. And I think NICE will get you to run away from doing the harder thing, which is giving donors the option.
Speaker 2:It's the same with IG. If you go to speak to an agency and you're nervous about asking for volume, you can talk yourself out of it before you've even asked, before you've given the option to help. And I think this is a key thing that I see all the time is that all of the evidence that is being produced to get you from giving those options is all in your own head about being nice, not wanting to have an awkward moment, them just liking you. And your job isn't for them just to like you. It's part of it.
Speaker 2:Part of your job is to give them choice and options. And I think for me, that is a big difference that people need to think about is how am I doing the kind thing to that donor? How am I giving them the option so they know their choices so that they can make a grown up decision? It's not for you to do that. And, that's a nice versus kind.
Speaker 1:Hi. It's Rob. Just before we get to the final part of the conversation, if you find these podcasts useful, just imagine what's possible when we go deeper with your whole team live together. Like the podcast, our Bright Spot membership and our team training days are packed with practical examples and techniques. But because we're working with you in real time, the shift in confidence and results happens at a completely different level.
Speaker 1:To find out more, head over to brightspotfundraising.co.uk/services. Yes, Paul. All of this is ringing true. If our listeners are to try this one out, what could they do now?
Speaker 2:What I would ask them to do is to think about whatever what ask are you thinking of making soon? Is it to a major donor? Is it to an agency? Is it to a trust? And think about what is the ask that you think is the right ask?
Speaker 2:When you look at all the evidence you have on paper, what's the thing you want to ask? Think of your donor or the person who's receiving the ask as an adult. Think about what are the options you want to give them. So how are you going to be kind to them and give them the choices that they need? So what you so you're gonna go ahead and you say, here's the situation.
Speaker 2:Here's what's needed. Here is what could make it possible. Would you consider? And if you think about that all you're doing is giving someone the choices. So I would ask think about that ask and think about how you can be brave by being kind and not just creating a nice but non awkward moment.
Speaker 1:Great. So that's one last bit of thinking we could do, and do let us know, listeners, how you get on. Any last thought that ties all of this together, Paul?
Speaker 2:So there's a book. If anyone has met me for more than twenty minutes, I've talked about this book recently, so I can only apologize to anyone who knows me who is listening. There's a great book called Step Up, Step Back by Elizabeth Johnson, which is great for any manager or a leader or anyone because, basically, it's the idea about as you step up in a role, how do you start to step back? And a big part of that step up, sometimes it might be, leadership stepping up, But the idea is is when you're doing leadership stepping up, how are you thinking about how you're being kind, not nice? Because everything that you do as a manager as you step up is how are you gonna do more coaching?
Speaker 2:How are gonna do more teaching? How are you gonna have the difficult conversations? How are you gonna manage your stakeholders? All of leadership roles start to be more and more about that. And rather than having that fear about that scale of demand, think about actually how am I just gonna do the kind thing across those things, across those areas of work.
Speaker 2:Because when you start to think of how we've talked about this conversation, kind is if you get into the habit of doing kind, it doesn't become as big a thing as it might feel the first time you do it. It starts to become a rhythm. It just so to give you an example, I've gone to the in my mentoring sessions, I quite openly say, can I just challenge you on that? And people go, yeah. Sure.
Speaker 2:Now I think people who are struggling with this at the moment, and I was the same, the idea of saying that in a meeting was massive to me. And now I literally I will say it three times. I feel like there isn't something quite right or I'm not sure if I quite agree, and it gives me a nice little door to open to say the thing I wanna say. And I would encourage people to think, how do you find language on a regular day to day basis that is bringing kindness in and is pushing niceness out? That would be my big thing to think about as people go off on their day.
Speaker 1:Such a valuable topic, Paul. Thank you so much for bringing it to life with the way you frame it with certain ideas, with certain words, certain questions, and with these examples, and with your honesty. I really appreciate it. I look forward to doing another session with you in our Bright Spot membership soon, and I'll put a link in our episode notes to your LinkedIn page for Giant Steps in case people want to get in touch. Thanks, Paul.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Rob. Cheers.
Speaker 1:That's all, folks. Thank you as always for listening and for supporting the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast. If you liked it, please help me spread the word so we can help as many good causes as possible. I'd be super grateful if you take a moment share it on with your team or on LinkedIn. Good luck practicing being kind rather than nice this week.
Speaker 1:I look forward to sharing another Bright Spots story with you very soon.