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Two longtime music pros (Sensei & Fatboi) go deep on what makes music great. A podcast for music producers, artists, and fans.
Fatboi is a Multi-platinum, Grammy nominated, award winning producer whose credits include: Camoflauge, YoungBoy Never Broke Again, Gucci Mane, Young Jeezy, Rocko, Shawty Redd, Flo Rida, Bow Wow, Bone Thugs-n-Harmony, Juvenile, Yung Joc, Gorilla Zoe, OJ Da Juiceman, 8Ball & MJG, Jeremih, 2 Chainz, Nicki Minaj, Bobby V, Ludacris and Yo Gotti, Monica, Zay Smith, TK Kravitz, Future.
Sensei Hollywood (a.k.a. Dan Marshall) formerly an instructor and chair of the Audio Production program at the Art Institute of Atlanta, is an accomplished musician, producer, engineer who's performed on and engineered multi--platinum records with Big Boi, Outkast, Killer Mike, Chamillionaire, Carlos Santana, Mary J. Blige, Snoop Dogg, Ron Isley, Lil Wayne, Trillville, Monica, and more...
Speaker 1 (00:00.142)
I think with Atmos it's lot more panning and leveling than it is EQing. I don't really EQ and compress a whole lot.
and the speakers do the work for you a little bit.
I mean,
Well, one was supposed
You don't feel threatened by AI in this business.
Speaker 1 (00:19.715)
Because it's not, AI's not creative. We're the creative.
We were debating a little bit whether this atmosphere was going to last. I remember when they tried to push 3D TV on us about 10, 15 years ago and it's all like flaming arrows shooting towards the camera.
That was cool though. looked cool.
Fuck bro, I'm gonna make that attack.
Speaker 2 (00:46.478)
You're listening to the show for music industry pros Sensei and Fatboy. Go deep on what makes music great. Today we're talking to Grammy nominated engineer Dee Brown. Artists like Rick Ross, Kendrick Lamar, and H.E.R. have all benefited from this experience and so should you. Get ready, because it's levels to this.
Speaker 2 (01:17.846)
I don't think I need an intro. kind of banged into it. But I was going to run through your accolades real quick, you know.
You wanna do that without me on the screen?
I'll just put it in the text then because we didn't do that. It is worth mentioning that you've got a couple Grammy nominations, you've worked with artists like Rick Ross, Kendrick Lamar, H.E.R. or do you say it her?
say her, I don't know either.
The work is mysterious and important.
Speaker 2 (01:52.886)
I played guitar on a reggae record the other day. That's kind of fun. I've been doing more post-production lately. Like a lot of, got these filmmakers, independent filmmakers. do a lot of audio cleanup, you know, in between all the cool stuff. So I'm fixing poorly recorded stuff with a isotope and stuff like that, you know.
Yeah
Speaker 1 (02:13.972)
Nope, good old isotope. Well, I've been using these stem splitters lately, so I found this new one, Moises, it's pretty nice. Moises? Yeah, got to get rid of it. You you're recording, they've got all the different kind of bleeds and all these different, so it's nice to be able to separate stuff. So there's some cool ones out there.
That whole technology is kind of like really blown up, like, and opened a lot of possibilities. You know, just removing vocals.
It's lovely, especially when you like got a big room and you just got tons of bleed. It's nice to be able to isolate some stuff because you know when you start EQ and things if you're EQing your drums and it's got vocals in it, it's hard to you know take things out or make things better because you're dealing with all the problems. You're just adding to problems or whatever so sometimes it's like that isolation you know.
No, well, you know, it depends on the genre, because I do a lot of rock and stuff. Sometimes the ethos is bleed is good, you know, depends on. Yeah, well, yeah, what the reason. But but but like like Queens of the Stone Age, Foo Fighters, stuff, the drums want to have a lot of room in them.
for sure. But they were isolated also. Yeah, true.
Speaker 2 (03:40.942)
You know, there was a thing like, like, like in the 90s, the whole band was set up like as if they're playing with the monitor mix and everything. And I'll believe like R.E.M. Munster was like a pretty good example of that, you know, they did it over there at crossover. You know where that is? It's in Atlanta. They set up on a sound on the stage and just went for it like they were playing a gig.
That's why it sounds good though too.
But I think those are the exceptions to prove the rule because you really you don't you don't want the extra stuff you got but But I'm over here like I'm over here like taking chainsaws out of like dialogue on a street, you know
That's what I mean. Like you got to get rid of stuff. It's like a lot bad But but I remember when the the eyeball was like the saying everybody was like, I need to get the Eyeball on my microphone so I can isolate all the vocals when I'm doing the recording. It's like alright now we got other stuff
Yeah, well people go through trends, But some people just gotta be different. Like, Cora was talking about Erika Badoo, like, just wanting to cut it live as if she's in the control room holding the mic, and you know, like the vibe kind of overrides those other concerns.
Speaker 1 (04:57.006)
Give it and give it a performance for sure. Yeah. But I also think that deals with your level of musicianship too though.
Well, your character, you know, like there's a difference between like a musician, maybe and an artist. like who's like this whole pack. Erica Badu is Erica Badu. She's on this whole other level, you know, and that's the whole package. like, you know, sometimes the eccentricities are part of the gig and you just kind of kind of roll with it.
I knew it.
Speaker 1 (05:32.846)
All right. But how many times do you hear about the stories of musicians, like band members being replaced by other ones because they don't quite play as hot? And suddenly you're hold on, man, you're kind of messing this up. Let's get somebody else in here.
Once in a while, yeah, once in a while. usually it's the character that wins, but I don't know. I've seen, I've been following Smashing Pumpkins for like 30-something years and slowly kind of windowed down to just Billy.
Right?
People can only hold so much information in their head about who's in the band or whatever.
Right. Yeah, that reminds me of using those safari pedals and things are cool. Every time I think about it, I think about them smashing bumpkin records.
Speaker 2 (06:19.259)
Tell me about the safari pedals. How are you using them? And what you're doing.
I mean use them on auxes kind of just Depending on what they are, but I really enjoy their reverbs and the rabbit tape They got a couple plugins that are just kind of cool, but they're very aggressive. So you got to Be cautious with them, but they're fun I would definitely say so because they can get right out of control real quick Sometimes you just put it on and it's like well done. We packed that off
Apparently with it.
Speaker 2 (06:50.742)
What is that something Leslie Brathwaite was involved with?
He just got one, yeah, he just got a new one, the bowl for like low end and, holy crap man, as I'm saying, you have to back, you have to tame those down because they're very aggressive, but they're fun. They look cool, they're just easy to use, there's not a lot of knobs and gadgets, you know what I mean? You just kind of get into it, so.
Well at this point man, I think people like what we're have been in the game for a while just want just want something new.
Exactly, but I don't want to try I mean, I don't know I see all these like multi functional system, you know, it's got like compressor EQ gates blah blah blah and it's like alright man, can I just have this and can I just play with that and not have to think about a whole you know, a lot of extra workflow. I don't know. That's why I've been enjoying the Safari battles. Like I said, they're just easy. Throw them on.
three knobs generally and kind of just have some fun.
Speaker 2 (07:55.118)
UAD has got these Verve plugins. They've been moving from like, you have to have their DSP to like, it'll work on native now.
Yeah, the UADXs or whatever.
Yeah, LMNOP, I don't know.
Yeah, you're welcome.
But the verbs are cool because they're like they have they've been had the the tape emulation with the exact knobs of the amp x or whatever the verbs are just like two knobs three knobs here's some tape character distorted if you like, you know, I Think I think I think that's where it's going. But it's funny where you're talking about the sphere or the I the
Speaker 1 (08:38.068)
Yeah, the... I bought...
The eyeball thingy. I have the sphere mic and one of the one of the presets for it is the eyeball.
That's what I'm saying. was like a thing. I remember that. I bought one. I tried to use it. just, I don't know, it kind of muffled a little too much most of the time for me. It was a little bit too dead.
Yeah. I mean, like it's good to have a little life fighting back. You actually built right behind me. actually built out a vocal booth, like a room within a room kind of situation with the floating walls and all that jazz. I'll never do that shit again. But, but I soundproofed it, but like to actually soundproof, like, you know, to, to reduce the amount of transfer a lot of you, you gotta do construction techniques, like, like air gaps and insulation.
You
Speaker 2 (09:33.282)
two layers of sheetrock on either side. I got this green glue stuff.
I'm working on trying to design my personal studio here at the house. So that's what I've been doing a lot of research and they're like, gotta get the glue.
Wait til You know about the green glue. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:55.104)
I got about almost a case left over, man. You can have it. can figure out how to get it.
Sure, I'll let you know.
Come by Atlanta, but I've been holding on to it. I have all the notes for that. Right up the street from me is GIK, Glenn Curass. He sold out of the business, but they're the guys that do the panels. And they do a lot of DIY construction advice. And I was asking them a bunch of stuff, but back then they were charging 800 bucks just to talk to you. And now they give it away free.
You know, I'm trying to keep my budget is maybe two grand for this little project. But no, but I bought a sheetrock lift so I could put the
to get on the ceiling? of course.
Speaker 2 (10:40.734)
And I barely, I barely had enough room for like a four by eight sheetrock. Right. So I was like pushing it. It was like wedged in there for like a while. And I'm like, I hope I get this in there, but I did it. But for 150 bucks, I didn't have to hire somebody else. I'm cheap, you know, but.
I got it done. I'm sure it works. It the longest of functions.
Well, I'm get done with this maybe I'll give you a little quick tour but yeah, no it came out it came out good but Yeah, you know it was like a year of weekends to actually get it straight. So and you know as long as the the building inspector never comes true for good That's that's my tornado shelter it's built pretty solid, you know, I I overbuilt it because I was nervous about having all that sheetrock cave
But
Speaker 1 (11:31.758)
Sometimes it burns a little.
Well, I'll tell you what came in handy is I got this stuff called hat track. And what it is, well, it's a flexible, it's basically a sheet and like a strip of aluminum. It looks like a little hat, you know, and you put it, you put it on your studs to mount the wall to it. So the wall floats, you can't get it at home Depot or nothing. You got to go like a building supply thing that, and the, the
You know, like the Owens Corning, you can't get that at Home Depot either, that kind of stuff. But everything else was like a Home Depot gig. But you mount that and did the ceiling with it too. I like hung the ceiling off like studs or joists going across my little room within a room. So that gives you like another five dBs of isolation. Like just doing the floating. And if you do like two layers of sheet rock with the green glue.
Eric app with a little installation, then do the same thing on the outside. You're getting like, you know, closing in on 70 DBs of reduction.
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (12:39.246)
Yeah, so it's quiet in there. So I've been down that road. So apparently today is about studio construction. Who knew?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:50.478)
Yeah, who knew, And I don't even know. I bought two books. I'm reading up because that's not really my area. I know my GoToStudios are already built. But I want my own personal space. I of do it the way I want it.
What are you doing, like a vocal booth? Do you want like a drum tracking area?
I'm really just making a mixing room. Really just want to mix because I want to get I mean solidly mixing but also the atmosphere and stuff like that I want to have a nice space to put up speakers and I'm kind of just gonna do like a lounge live room kind of combo hangout spot but it's really it's just a mixing room really it's just for me I don't really care about anybody else.
Well, so what's your primary consideration? you looking for isolation? you just looking for like knocking down reflections and nodes and stuff? Yeah, I mean...
I think I'm more going for aesthetics and vibe before I'm going and then, and then yeah, I can get the room tuned and all of these things. So I'm not too overly worried about like, didn't, know what I mean? I can build this properly enough and then worry about nodes and all of that stuff. Just basically get it tuned. I think that's the easiest thing.
Speaker 2 (14:06.35)
What's the architecture is it that room is like it's it square or is it long I got weird
This is where I'm kind of getting into trying to figure this all out man, but right now I think it's gonna be kind of rectangular shaping, but I'm trying to do maybe a combo. I'm getting a little bit like kind of dreamy with it.
I mean, I don't want to squash the dream. I'm really happy with how my room came out, but it took a little bit of work.
No, I'm not doing this myself I plan on having this built and stuff like built is coming out like I'm gonna do it properly I don't think I could I don't think I could do it
Speaker 1 (14:53.583)
Right. And I don't feel like lugging materials and all of them. Like I just, that's not my thing right now. So.
man. So you're going to set it up for Atmos. You're going to fly the speakers up top. give me, give me like a little quickie Atmos tutorial. Cause I don't know that much about it. And maybe that's a good topic for what we need to talk about, you know, rub me down the, the, the speaker setup for Atmos.
like
Speaker 1 (15:22.114)
Generally you have a 7, 7 1 4 room, which means you have seven surround speakers, your left right center, your two sides, your two rears, and then you would have one sub. Well, the sub I'll explain a little bit later, but you have a sub and then you have your top four channels, which would, and that's your atmospheric. Then you can run that up to nine.
whatever, like nine, six, two, like you can, you can grow from there. there's that.
There's flexibility in the format. Is that what you're saying?
I mean, it's growth in it. Like it's still, think even numbers, but yeah, you can grow because it's still built for the movie. Like it's a movie theater stuff. So, you know, you go into a movie theater, there's 37, 40 speakers in there that you don't really know about, but they're in there.
50-11
Speaker 2 (16:18.958)
You
So but a lot of times you run two subs in this system, but one sub is doing bass management for your surround speakers. So it's taking the low frequency information out of your tops and your sides and rears and kind of pushing that out to the sub. it's a crossover situation. So you actually have an LFE and then you have a bass management system. So yeah.
crossover
Speaker 2 (16:46.904)
So, okay, interesting. So it's not a stereo sub-situation. You know? Yeah, kind of. I think it is.
Yeah, but yeah, I you have your ones not a stereo subject you have one sub that's doing LFE information like all your low-end actual low-end information But then there's another sub that's just kind of help taking the the low end out of the tops and so because they're not supposed to be I think it's a rated for like 85 DB or something like that. So they're not supposed to be overly cranking Yeah, mean that's the kind of the nice thing about mixing in Atmos is that you get your headroom back
because they have specs that you have to kind of follow. So you get a lot more, I think you get a lot more to play with and you have a little bit more room to turn some things up, but you have to be careful because you can start like crapping out speakers. So that's kind of why that base management is involved. So you're not hurting your system.
Okay. I was asking because mostly we think of bass as being omnidirectional. But I've heard of a couple of guys, like I'm going to say Bob Katz was talking about stereo subs for mixing. You ever mess with that or that's just like a whole different? Yeah.
No, even when we go back to the stereo setup, it's just the one LFB. The other one kind of just doesn't really do anything. mean, I don't know if you need stereo soaps. I know how much more information you really need.
Speaker 2 (18:16.13)
But you're mixing mostly music for Atmos,
Yeah, I don't really do any film and stuff like that.
So what's the big adjustment from going from stereo to Atmos mixing? What would you say?
you
Biggest thing, really just techniques what you're not doing the same thing you do when you're mixing. Because generally you mix your stereo record first and then that sounds like you want it to sound and then you do the at most after the fact. the song's already mixed. So a lot of times what you find, I find is that you notice the bad edits a lot more.
Speaker 2 (18:56.078)
You you call me out on one one time one of my Instagram post yeah, you're like that's when that it yeah
I mean, people notice those. But that was when you, when you in the Atmos world, because you have all of the space and height, you can pulse individual instruments out and kind of give them their own light, like their own area. And because of that, sometimes they're EQ'd funny, they might not sound that good. And you'd be like, why did I make that? But you made that choice because you were mixing in stereo and it needed to be carved out so that it fit in the mix properly.
That might just be
Speaker 1 (19:33.272)
But when you get to the ad, most you kind of have, they're like, that doesn't fit there. I can just move it over here and edit, you know, enjoys its own space. So that's.
There's to hide. There's no masking anymore. You've got him over here on this channel and he's all by himself.
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:50.802)
And if he's really that bad, then you better leave him tucked up front so he doesn't get noticed again. But yeah.
So you base it off that the two track mix are you like just really like do doing like a two track plus kind of thing or Putting it in space
No, mean, I'm trying to... Yeah, I'm trying to involve... I mean, I'm trying to immerse the listeners really what's going on. So I kind of want the listener to feel like they're in that space at the time with them. So it's not necessarily just having things fly around the room because you can. It's more about just kind of giving that depth and love to it kind of thing. Because a lot of the stuff that I've mixed is small instrumentation. There's not a lot of stuff to work with.
You can't really do flying things around. There's not a lot to do that. So it's more about just creating that ambiance of the room. And then when you listen to it, you just kind of feel like you're sitting there listening to the, you know, in the space with them.
So you're assuming like an audience perspective, like a concert kind of situation or? It depends on the vibe, right?
Speaker 1 (20:54.414)
Depends on the vibe exactly really just depends on the vibe Yeah, but it's a lot more I think with at most it's a lot more It's not more panning and leveling than it is EQing and you know, I don't really EQ and compress a whole lot I really just do a lot more leveling and pan pan stuff. So
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:16.11)
You're letting the speakers do
I mean, that's what they're for. added a whole bunch of them. Let them do their job.
Well, one was a
Speaker 2 (21:26.2)
But it's fun. You know, I thought about this because like we were debating a little bit was that most going to last? it because some of it, you know, I remember when they tried to push 3D TV on us about 10, 15 years ago and it's all like flaming arrows shooting towards the camera. I just took myself out of focus.
Speaker 2 (21:53.214)
So, so you're trying to really constantly trying to avoid that gimmicky kind of vibe, I guess.
Exactly. Yeah, I don't and they have in for like readers now that will tell you that people just tried to up mix it and not even give it a real try so It's new technology. It's not it's not new technology. It's just new to everybody. It's but but it's been around for a while and it's
It's like the same evolution of when we were in mono and it went to stereo and people were like, what the hell is this crap? Nobody wants to like, can get it on one speaker. And they were just throwing drums on the right side and everything else on the left. was like, okay. But then I was just
mixing a record that was going for that vibe and the drums totally go to the left side, like a cream record or whatever. It's jarring, but you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we were having this discussion too with a core a little bit. And this is my observation. I see the kids experience a lot of music on the phone through this little bottom speaker. Like these phones have been killing stereo.
It was cool to re-
Speaker 1 (22:58.648)
Bye.
Speaker 1 (23:02.698)
For a minute.
What do you think about that? How much do you check mono for people experiencing it on just iPhone or, or do even worry about that anymore?
I mean, I'm still I still check everywhere. I think as a mixer you're supposed to cover all your mediums of your listener So I have my Apple maxes. I have a very nice pair of headphones I have earbuds I go to the car still like you still check everywhere So yeah, sometimes I just straight play it on my phone and be like, alright, cuz you never know That's how you send it to somebody and that's how they're gauging your mix. They just like they send me the files
Oh yeah, that sounds good. It's like, okay, I don't want it. So you better check it everywhere.
I look at it like being like a crash test dummy a little bit, you know, like he's got to survive It's not what you want, but you guys survive hitting that wall at 40. Yeah 45 So you're you're when are you doing at most what you know, a lot of people are still experiencing that over like air pods, right? Wait that
Speaker 1 (24:04.546)
Airpark
But are you mixing in the room with the nice speakers or you, or do you ever just mix on AirPods and check it on the speaker? What's your approach?
I do both actually, I, I mix, kind of get started in my headphones and then I have the room where I have all the speakers. So I then go there because if you have an experience at most in the room with the speakers, then it's hard to, you have to have that experience first. And once you have it, you kind of like, I see what's going on now. You're like, I kind of understand a little bit more. So.
I still mix for that experience, but I also take in consideration that you're going to be listening to on your Apple Max's and your pods and stuff. So mixing for that, make sure it does sound right and good. But I still want you to have that, that wow factor when you get into a room that has the speakers and you're like, okay. Cause it's really cool. It is really cool.
What kind of things lend itself to the wow factor? Do find?
Speaker 1 (25:10.866)
I think just, I don't, maybe because it's a new experience, but I think it's like, for me, it's listening to the older songs that are done in Atmos, like a remix for the Atmos, because you find a lot of times you didn't hear instrumentation that you are hearing now. And it's kind of cool. It's like, I didn't know they did that. Like Rocketman is one of the ones we kind of play all the time for like a demo experience. And it's.
you know that song and then you're gonna hear it and again and be like, I didn't know that was there. I didn't know they did that like, and it's really cool. And that kind of wow factor is that they kind of kept it upfront stereo from the beginning. And then when it kind of gets to like the chorus part, it opens up in the root and it's just like, okay.
Okay, so you're probably mixing over the course of the song with that in
Yeah, of course. Yeah, you can you don't have to just have it all open up and be wide just because you can do cool things and it's the ear I think it's the ear candy that's fun to play with the little Nuancy stuff because you can have that kind of go behind or you know creep over their head. There's all kinds of things I mean That's what's fun about it. There's this more it's a lot more space to play in I think the easiest way to say it
Okay, awesome. it's a whole other dimension, like literally, you know. Beyond the marketing hype, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:33.676)
I literally don't
So that's the only thing I think that you get lost in the headphones is the height aspect. part doesn't really translate through as well, but I'm sure this is just a time thing. But I do think cars are going to be the selling point. think once you, cause you can put that in an automobile, you can have speakers up in the roof and stuff. You know what I mean? So I think if it can get to cars, I think we got a shot.
You gotta watch out for them skits with like sirens and gunshots in the sample cell, People are like, my god!
I did that in stereo. Who is that? my god.
Speaker 2 (27:19.18)
man, like, I want to say, beamers or there's a couple of beamers that got them or.
Yeah, think Mercedes-Benz or something. There's a couple of things that definitely have them. it's cool. I mean, like I said, it's a different experience. It's a new listening experience. easy, you know, there's a way to say it.
Is it changing how you're recording or you're like messing around with like, binaural head mics and stuff like that or not really?
I try, but yeah, like, and the space I record, have, we have bikes in the ceiling and stuff like that to kind of help capture the room a little bit more, just to give you some more space and things of that nature to play with. But, I think you think about it a little bit more, like what can I add or where can I kind of, know, what can I do to make this a little bit more spaced out or whatever. But, the techniques, I think it's still,
I would say regular recording techniques.
Speaker 2 (28:15.904)
Okay. So like, is it tough for like independent people to break into the Amazon? You got to buy the whole 714 speaker package or what do you think the entry level?
I mean, I the entry level is the headphones like logic has it built in now Pro Tools has it built in like you don't even need that the external Renderer aspect of it for that. You can literally do it with your headphones. So I think it's just playing with it. People just need to keep trying Yeah, okay. Yeah, mean I don't yeah right now. That's how I started I mean, I didn't have ice like you see where my I don't have
12 speakers sitting behind me or anything like that. I my headphones on like that's how I started. But it's, I think the at most curve is learning how to do all the routing. The routing is a bit tricky because you have more speakers and things to use. So you gotta make sure your routing is all proper and everybody's communicating, you know, the different things are communicating. And then once you got that, it's play time.
Well, you know that that's the whole gig of engineering, right? It's kind of connecting like the left brain two plus two equals four with the right brain. I like purple. And, know, and making that work, you know, some people are just, I like purple, make it sound purple. You ever get those?
yeah, no, I my favorite one the guy went in the booth he wrapped his verse he came out and he tapped me on my shoulder and he was like make it melodic and walked off What Your job I literally sat in front of a computer going I don't know what that means Am I not a good engineer because I don't know what to it a lot of means
Speaker 2 (29:37.882)
even me.
Speaker 2 (29:55.246)
No
Speaker 1 (30:05.358)
Oh man, and then I just started doing stuff. I was like, I don't even grabbing reverbs and delays, kind of looking over my shoulder like, is that melodic? What do you want from me?
It's like you're playing poker looking for tells, you know.
Exactly. I'm like, please anybody. man. Yeah. You get all kinds of it, but that's part of the job. Your job is to code and decipher and hopefully you get it right.
Most of the time, it seems like you're doing pretty good. know, you got a couple, got a couple Grammy nominations. You got some folks you worked with that people know and like talk, talk to me about how you, you're, you got your journey. How do you came into this biz and how you got where you're at? know, were you a musician or you're DJ? What was your entry into music?
Yeah, I was a DJ basically was my entry. When I was in the military, learned like a side thing. I learned how to DJ on my spare time. And then when I got out of the military, I kind of did regular jobs and didn't really enjoy life too much. And it was kind of like, I need to get back to doing what I enjoyed and doing music is something that I've always enjoyed. Like, you know, the DJing and stuff. so I started doing research. I found full sale.
Speaker 1 (31:26.484)
I went down to, went down there, did my year. and then to Atlanta internship at Patchwork and yeah, I didn't, I didn't stop basically from there.
Like, just like in the brochures, basically.
Exactly. exactly. Get your foundation built and then go to the studio and start building your house. That's what it's for.
You make it sound easy, but I'm going to go on a limb and assume it was not.
No, it's never easy. I mean, the hours, you've seen what we do at the studio and how long we're there and the hours that we put in. Like, I probably did 10,000 hours before we even finished the year, you know? But no, it's the life. It's the journey and the struggle with all of that makes you the engineer that you are kind of thing or the, know, so.
Speaker 2 (32:18.738)
What's the thing that weeds people out of that business, do suppose? More than anything else.
Just continuing, honestly, when stuff, when life gets hard, most people have to, you know, kind of pivot to do other things. And that that's where it falls over. Once you kind of shift your focus to another, you know, the studio slightly falls behind, but the studio doesn't stop doing what the studio does. So you just get left out basically kind of a gone blade. What is it? Like if you're not seeing you're forgotten or whatever.
Mmm.
What's up to stay seen do you suppose?
I think just being a solid engineer, mean, doing the job right and being trustworthy, know, people can count on you. You're not going to leak their music or fuck their thoughts.
Speaker 2 (33:14.606)
Who's leaking music over here? Tell me more about this. I want to hear this.
Scandal. Yeah, right. I mean it wasn't there like I just read a thing about Eminem's engineer was like selling songs He had like a drive and he was selling because he felt I didn't get paid enough or whatever It's like god, that's strange. But okay So I know I'm like, yeah that happened I mean you lose your drive like say you're the engineer and you forget your bag or somebody steals your bag and you had your
drives and that's mute like that had happened but I think it happens at the label more than happens and I do think it's intentional I don't think links are just to test the market
Yeah, is a better story than a failure.
Exactly. we leaked it. It was...
Speaker 2 (34:08.398)
I'm done yet. D didn't make it melodic. That's what we need.
Can I get more melodic? That's why I wanted to make a plugin. Just one button melodic. But I'm they do. I'm sure they do.
Probably got that, now.
with the dreaded AI.
my gosh. That's what mean.
Speaker 2 (34:39.231)
Well, but AI is sitting over here writing melodies.
That's trying. It's just copying everything. mean, if it was, I don't know, it's still our intelligence. It's not nothing new. It's just using everything that we've fed it. I mean, sure, might be, seems like it's doing something more than it is, but I don't really think it is.
Well, I was, it's basically a plagiarism machine.
Exactly. I mean, that's kind of how you look. That's the best way I would think about it. Really, because it's not creating anything new that you haven't. It's just using everything that it's been given and goes, OK, here. You want something like this? And I'll put all the bells and whistles together to kind of create that. And it's like, OK, give me something new.
You don't feel threatened by AI in this business. No.
Speaker 1 (35:35.182)
Because AI is not creative. We're the creatives. It's a tool. think it is a good tool. think if you use it properly, it'll be a very nice tool. But it's like anything, you know.
What do you wish AI could do for you that it's not doing yet?
wash my clothes, food, do all the things that I don't want to do in life and then I can enjoy all the rest. Like I don't want it to do the creative stuff, I it to do the labor.
My **** right?
Speaker 2 (36:08.31)
Right, like get my routing straight for Atmos. Let me know I did something wrong.
I don't do all the other things. I'll let me be creative and at the time that's what I wish AI would do.
video.
Speaker 2 (36:24.718)
It's wild they seem to be focused on the creative stuff first. I don't I don't know what that's about But it's like the first thing that comes out is that look you can draw these great pictures and I can do a Studio Ghibli cartoons
Right.
What about the guy that did Studio Ghibli? Let him make his... bag on the...
Is he getting paid? I hope he's getting a check for that.
No, he is not. He was not happy about that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:51.958)
Yeah, well, I mean, you can shut that down, you?
I don't know, do they have AI lawyers yet? They need AI lawyers.
I mean, that's what they're probably all debating in the Congress and all that stuff and all of this. yeah, I don't know. I think it's a tool and you know, people get scared of new tools sometimes, but I don't see any real competition. And then it does come in handy. Like I said, when we're trying to do the track stems and things of that nature, you're trying to de-bleed some stuff or you're trying to defer or you're using your isotope. All of these things are useful tools to help you.
you know, get better music or magic out of it, but at the same time, it's not doing your job for you. You might think it.
I think if people come at it with like a good set of like ethics or values like that like there's a there's a line you cross like Cleaning up seems like okay. That's good But when you start making people say things they did not say or show you show you video that did not happen You know that we're getting it to some dangerous territory
Speaker 1 (37:58.434)
Right, now you just, yeah, that's like deceiving and being lied, like that's a different, that's a whole different path.
I'm still curious about there's engineers selling beats off &M's hard drive. I don't know.
I that's not true. do hope that's not true. That's never a good look for an engineer in its life.
This just in, engineer falls off 20 story building.
Right? You wonder how it happens. But, maybe pay your engineers, don't know. Maybe that's the other story of that.
Speaker 2 (38:31.182)
and Bitcoin or something or Solana.
I didn't see.
You know, do you know this artist named Imogen Heap? She's the one that did, what you say that you never meant? Well, they did the sample off her record. Brilliant artist, but she used to stop her gig in the middle of it and say blockchain is the future of music because you can, well, and she had a point, it just never, you know, it's never going get used for a good reason, but they could have a copyright embedded in your music. So when someone samples it,
It automatically negotiates the sample rate cuts you a little check every time it gets played off the sample because people are sampling her shit like, Oh, yeah, right. And like, instead of having to go through all the legal crap, it says there's already automatically like a DNA in the blockchain that says this is the original artist.
Right. Well, that's a good use. I mean, that's good use for it.
Speaker 2 (39:28.942)
But do ever get in a situation where people are doing samples of samples of samples and no one knows if it's going to get cleared?
Yeah, well, of course, but most of the time, I mean, when you're in the rap world, nobody really gives a shit until it's time to give a shit. So. We'll do the. Yeah, I mean, do the record and then we'll we'll they'll deal with it on the back end. And I've definitely had them come in and be like, hey, can we try to, you know, fake it or do it a little differently so it's not the sample or, you know, can you just change the sample? Like, you know, whatever it may.
I have been in situations as a musician where they're like, can you just change out one chord? I'm like, okay, but you want me to change two chords? No, no, just one, that's fine. then, and then they got to give away 95 % of the record to the original artist because it really sounded like the original song.
Exactly.
I don't know. So maybe AI isn't really, or, isn't really doing too much new. People have been walking that line for a minute. Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 1 (40:32.046)
For sure, but I mean it's quite impressive now how they're able to detect these samples. They can pitched up, sped down, chopped into little three seconds. The ability to find out what was used is really impressive right now, I will say that. There's a couple of those sample breakdowns that I enjoy watching at the beach and it's just like, holy crap, how did you even?
pick that, like, find that.
I gotta believe like at some point it'd just be easier to like learn how to play an instrument and play it over or get someone that could play it.
That was yeah, that was you would think
I saw an ad for a place, I forget what it was called, but it was basically this, like, you can get royalty free samples and you can use Melodyne to change the melodies and blah blah. I'm like, dude, just learn to play the piano. It's cool, it's not that hard.
Speaker 1 (41:31.47)
You I mean you gotta think about it, lot of producers now, you know, paint it in. You don't have to really know how to play. just can... It's like a, it's almost like a video game. Almost like a video game.
Yeah, I mean...
Speaker 2 (41:46.4)
It's the video gamification of music,
No, Put your box in the box and do do do.
But at end of the day, it's like, that's just an evolution of the tools, I guess.
Exactly. And most people are just mad because they didn't think of it.
We were talking about when there was, there was like a DAW centric discussion, but there was a dividing line between people who use Pro Tools and the people that used Fruity Loops. Circa 06, 07, 08, there was this thing, and maybe you experienced this too, working at Patchwork in Atlanta, where the Fruity Loops producers use stuff on the master bus to like
Speaker 2 (42:33.72)
kind of distort and clip that. when they delivered the stems to like get mixed, it was missing all that.
Generally routing problems like a lot of times I think when you export your regions or whatever if you didn't do like select your master bus in the chain then they would get it spit out your files without that but a lot of times you needed to take it off because it would be too distorted or messed up and you couldn't use that audio file to begin with so, you know, it really just kind of depended but I I've definitely dealt with
Pro tools producers that who can chop a beat and do all the things in pro tools just as easy as they could and fruity loops and you know, vice versa. So I think you utilize the tools, you learn what you're good at and you evolve from there.
I'm, you know, it's interesting how each DAW, maybe it doesn't necessarily have a sound per se, but the way it gets used kind of gives it a sound or a character.
I think that's exactly right, right there. It's not necessarily the DAW itself, it's how it's used. I mean, Logic is another great production software like DAW, but I don't, I personally couldn't use it to track and record in it because it's not fast for me. I don't feel like it's designed for engineers per se, like Pro Tools is designed.
Speaker 2 (43:56.15)
Yeah, I've had a love hate thing with Pro Tools for like the longest time. I taught a lot of people, like hundreds and hundreds of people to use Pro Tools. So I can see that shit in the, I can see the final drop down menu. I hate it, but I'm so fast at it now because I did my pushups. like, you know, sometimes I wish there was something I could design, but then I'd have to relearn the language all over again.
I think that's why Luna was probably my favorite new DAW that came out that I don't mind mixing in. And that's because you can shift the quick keys to Pro Tools. So you can literally have all of your Pro Tools commands be the SADs. the learning curve wasn't that hard, basically.
And it gives you like some of the cool like analog.
yeah, no tons of all of that. That's why that's UAE.
with the analog thinking because it's all digital but it gives you the analog
Speaker 2 (44:59.497)
yeah.
You know, yeah, it's not a lot of evolution in DOS. Like in video editing world, there's this DaVinci Resolve that's kind of eaten up a lot of video editing work and they gave it away free. know, but one of the cool things it could do was what you're saying. You kick your key bindings from Premiere or Final Cut and put it right there in the thing. Like Pro Tools doesn't evolve that quick. It just kind of, it's been.
It's been doing its own thing since 1990. There's probably some code in there from 1985. Like the MIDI has not changed ever.
No, and I personally think Pro Tools kind of took a path at this one point and kind of started catering more to the post-production side of the workflow. Like file management, the bigger sessions, all of those kinds of things. think that all of that stuff kind of came from the post side and they not forgot about music, but they kind of started catering a little bit to those that side.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:06.03)
I don't know, I love my Pro Tools. So do you host for life?
It's usual mixing in Pro Tools and tracking Pro Tools.
Tagging Pro Tools, making Pro Tools, all that, yeah.
Even working for Apple, they don't have a thing like you gotta use logic or any of that.
I mean, we have it set up and we definitely use it, but I know it's hard. mean, it's just not conducive to engineering workflow. So it's like, do you want me to do the work right and solid or do you want me to kind of fumble and figure this out as we go? and Pro Tools is our music standard. I mean, I know nobody wants to admit it, but it is the studio standard.
Speaker 2 (46:49.484)
Well, it's ubiquitous, right? You can take a thing from one place to the other and you know it'll open up without a bunch of translating and stuff. you know, one of my favorite artists is a solid logic user. ever see Jacob Collier? You know how I'm talking?
Yep, and I know like pop pop
I have like 500 tracks of vocals, like literally insane sessions, but it's got that creative workflow because it's got, it kind of bends and shifts and expands and contracts in a way that like works for people's brains. people used to have to choose just because the operating system would not let you put the extensions in or whatever from somebody else, but it's less of that now, right?
Yeah, I think so. I think for sure. You can AXs and V3 all kinds of that. Yeah, you notice it when you do your install there's like now there's like six boxes that are available to you to put your plugins and all of your stuff. everything reads. That's another reason I don't know. I kind of don't like opening up logic a lot of times because it reads 8,000 plugins. It's like, I just want to use this thing.
I try real hard to keep everything running all the time so I don't have to do that boot up so much, but yeah, it's a little rough.
Speaker 1 (48:06.53)
Yeah, I'll be forgetting.
What do you think about the future of engineering and music? Where do see it going?
I think it's just like, I think music is as long as it's good music. I think, I hope in the future we get back to like the instrumentation of stuff and not trying to be so digital with everything. it's, I, the one thing I find that I like and enjoy most here in Nashville is the musicianship. Every, you know, people play very well here and it's really fun to enjoy that. Like again, kind of thing, like, you know, so,
But yeah, man, who knows what the AI and everything like that, it can go left or it can go right.
Any number of directions now with Atmos, Four dimensions of...
Speaker 1 (49:03.498)
I do hope Atmos though takes off and I do hope people get to experience it in a real room because it is something worth it. That I do hope kind of takes off and not just because I'm mixing in and I want more work but I do think it is a fun like once you actually kind of see it and get into mixing with it you're like oh
I, it is quite fun.
all right, we got a bit we've been doing. I'm like unprepared because this is fat boy's thing, but it's a lightning round, level up, rapid fire, yes or no, this or that kind of question round.
I'll do my best and I'm very good at these.
No one is, I gotta put you on the spot. Alright, you ready?
Speaker 1 (49:49.656)
Yeah, let's do it.
Po-tools or logic.
Pro Tools.
Okay, stereo or Atmos?
Don't go in stereo.
Speaker 2 (50:03.118)
Okay, let's see, let's see, let's
Speaker 2 (50:09.43)
I'm getting stuck too. I like get gimmicks or natural flow of conversation. Okay, I got one for you. Headphones Sony or AKG?
Okay
Speaker 1 (50:25.85)
I think it's those AKG studio monitors. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna have to go with the AKG's on that.
Okay. Favorite interview host, Sensei Hollywood.
Or fat boy. Well, I'm going to have to go with Danny, because fat boy. right.
Brown it's it's levels to this. I really appreciate you making time to talk with us We'll catch we'll do this again when fat boy can make it man It's always an honor and pleasure to talk with you, brother
Likewise, my man, was good to see you. I miss listening to you your guitar in the session,
Speaker 2 (51:08.462)
Let me know man, I got you on the internet and hit me up for that green glue you ever come back in town. I'll help you out. I got a case of it. It's levels to this D Brown
That's
Speaker 1 (51:21.39)
Appreciate you my man. Have a good one man. Take it easy.
Turn back now, think of all the things we've been through
Hey, just real quick, we need your support. If you like seeing discussions like this, we need you to like, comment, and subscribe to the channel. Thanks for watching.
It's Levels To This