Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

How to turn latent motivation into fuel for change.

If you want to be a changemaker, you’ll have to convince others to join your cause. But according to Dan Heath, persuading your audience isn’t about creating new motivation — it’s about leveraging the motivation that’s already there.

“The most important fuel for any change effort is motivation,” says Heath, the number-one New York Times bestselling author of Reset: How to Change What's Not Working. Instead of struggling to persuade people to want what you want, Heath suggests finding where your goals overlap with the things they already desire. "Before you even get to persuasion, if you can just tap and unleash the energy that's already there, you've already catapulted yourself toward success,” he says.

In this Rethinks episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Heath and host Matt Abrahams explore how to create more compelling communication using “leverage points,” or as Heath says, “where a little bit of effort yields a disproportionate return.” Whether getting buy-in from one teammate or achieving change across an entire organization, Heath shares practical tips for turning latent motivation into an engine for change.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (03:28) - The Power of Storytelling
  • (06:38) - Crafting Powerful Stories
  • (11:37) - Finding Great Stories
  • (14:56) - Leverage Points For Change
  • (18:08) - Wasted Resources & Motivation
  • (23:24) - Latent Desire in Systems
  • (25:33) - The Role of Systems in Communication
  • (29:22) - Communicating Progress
  • (32:44) - Lessons from Hosting a Podcast
  • (35:16) - The Final Three Questions
  • (43:19) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Dan Heath
Author, Speaker, Fellow at Duke University

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

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Matt Abrahams: From making ideas stick
to magic moments to unsticking processes,

Dan Heath has helped me and people
around the world to be more effective

in their communication and lives.

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to this Rethinks episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

I'm excited to open up our vast
vault of past episodes to highlight

the insights and input of Dan Heath.

Listen in as Dan helps us to be
more persuasive and effective.

When it comes to effectiveness and our
communication, it can benefit us to

take a step back and appreciate the
systems that influence what we do and

to look for the leverage points to
maximize the resources we bring to bear.

My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

I am really looking forward
to speaking with Dan Heath.

Dan is a number one New York Times
bestselling co-author and author of

six books including Power of Moments,
Decisive, Switch, and Made to Stick.

Several of his books he co-wrote
with his brother Chip, who

he interviewed in episode 49.

Dan also hosts the award-winning podcast.

What It's Like To Be.

Dan's latest book is Reset: How
to Change What's Not Working.

Welcome, Dan.

I am a huge fan of your work.

Thanks so much for being here.

Dan Heath: Thank you, Matt.

It's a, it's an honor to be on the show.

I'm a follower.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

Shall we get started?

Dan Heath: Let's do it.

Matt Abrahams: I've enjoyed all of your
books, but Made to Stick, which focuses

on how to get ideas to stick in a world
of so much information, and Switch,

which is all about effective persuasion,
continue to have a profound influence

on my life and in my communication.

I asked your brother, Chip,
when he was on the same question

I'd like to start with for you.

Can you share with us one powerful
takeaway from each of those books

that still impact your life?

Dan Heath: Yes, and I guess
we can compare answers.

I'm not sure what he said,
so we'll have to find out.

Memory lane, Made to Stick.

Here's one takeaway, and I doubt this
will come as a surprise to any of your

listeners, but the power of storytelling,
and I think that's probably a familiar

enough lesson that I need not harp on it.

But what may be interesting is in
the book we make the case that the

reason stories are so powerful is they
have these kind of extraordinary twin

powers of simulation and inspiration.

So in other words, you go to the
movie to see a visual story and

when the protagonist is in trouble,
your pulse quickens, right?

Which is just a fundamentally weird thing.

That's the power of simulation.

You are, in a sense, experiencing what the
protagonist of a story is experiencing.

Same thing is true for more
organizational forms, though.

You tell a story of some customer who
got an extraordinary service experience.

As another employee hearing that
story, you're able to simulate

what if it had been me doing that?

And that brings us also to the
second power of inspiration.

You don't just live
temporarily in that story.

You naturally start to think, Hey,
if they can do that, what can I do?

It's a spark for action.

And I think that's one of the
reasons why stories are such

profound vehicles for communication.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

Storytelling is really powerful.

I want to hear about what
you take away from Switch.

Dan Heath: I would say the number
one thing that I still routinely talk

about, and in fact it's been prominent
for me, that I brought it back as a

chapter in my new book, and that's
the notion of studying bright spots.

So this is a very simple idea, which
is that psychology says that we

tend to dwell on what's not working.

The problems, the emergencies,
the negative aspects of

the data we're looking at.

So we get employee engagement surveys
back and what do we look at first?

What's wrong?

Who's disengaged?

What are the, oh, the scores are dropped.

Oh, no.

There's a crisis.

Like our, our attention immediately
goes to the problems, but in that same

engagement data, there was a tale of
employees on the positive end, and

no one ever says, Hey, wait a second.

What's going on there?

Why are those employees so happy?

Why are they so engaged?

If we can get to the bottom of what
makes them so satisfied, so purposeful,

maybe we'll learn things that would
help shift the curve for everyone.

It's like we treat success
with a kind of relief.

We're like, oh, okay,
that's working, good.

'Cause that frees me up to go spend more
time where the problems are, and we make

the case in Switch that's backwards.

That there is so much that we can
learn that is practical and hopeful

simply by obsessing about what is
working as much as we naturally

obsess about what's not working.

Matt Abrahams: It's interesting, right?

I think there's a human tendency just
to focus on the negative and looking at

that positive can be very insightful.

You can look for patterns and trends
that you can adopt and adapt to.

I wanna come back to storytelling because
one of the things that really impresses

me in your work is, not only do you talk
about story and analyze story, but you're

actually a really good storyteller.

Can you give us a little insight
into your process for one, thinking

about the stories that you tell in
your books and when you speak on your

podcast, but also the process about
how to craft and deliver those stories,

because that's equally as powerful?

Dan Heath: It is the heart of what I
do and what takes the most time out

of everything I work on as a writer.

So maybe what I should do, let me
just tell a story from the book and

then talk a little bit about, just
gesticulate at it and tell, tell

what my intentions were in using it.

So the very first story in Reset
is about the receiving area at the

Northwestern Memorial Hospital.

So this is the part of the hospital
that takes in packages, gets them

delivered to their ultimate destination.

And at the point when the story starts, it
takes them an average of three days to get

packages delivered within the hospital.

UPS might get some medicine across the
country in a day or two, and then to get

the package from the basement to like
the third floor takes another three days.

So it's just crazy, but it's been
crazy as long as anyone can remember.

It is something that
everyone's adapted to.

They're not dumb people.

They're not lazy people.

They have just always lived in
a system where it takes three

days to get these packages out.

So this is expensive.

They're having medications
expire in the box.

They're having people over order
'cause they want to dodge this

chaos of the receiving area.

They have people trying to make side deals
with FedEx drivers to come directly to the

third floor and bypass the receiving area.

So into this mess, comes a
new person named Paul Suett.

And if we just freeze there for a second.

So what is this story doing?

Number one, just observe that there
is nothing naturally compelling

about this topic area, right?

There is not, there's no sex, there is
no violence, there are no celebrities.

It, it is the most
boring imaginable domain.

Yet there are universal themes here
that kind of get us on the hook.

Like these were the
pariahs of the hospital.

All of a sudden implicitly
we're rooting for them, right?

And then this new guy comes in and
you wonder what is he gonna do?

There's, there's a
detective story element.

What is he gonna do to untangle this mess?

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, you build that
curiosity, but also when you were

describing the problem, you didn't
just itemize the different things.

You actually really reinforced it.

I love the point where you said,
Hey, UPS can do it in a day or two.

That really adds a, a
magnifier to what's coming.

So I, I appreciated that part.

Dan Heath: So Paul Suett comes
in, he's our protagonist.

We talked about simulation
and inspiration, right?

So now we're walking in Paul Suett shoes.

First thing he does is he says,
what problems can I solve for you?

What's getting in your way?

And so the team's giving him a laundry
list of complaints and obstacles.

Some of them quite mundane, like the
wheels on the carts that we push around

are sometimes real stuck and jangly.

So Suett says, instantly, we'll get you
new carts, new wheels, whatever you need.

He's trying to just show
them that he's on their team.

He's not the know-it-all coming into
quote unquote fix things, and he

invites them into the detective work.

So every day for an hour a day, 12 days
in a row, they stop what they're doing,

and they just walk the line from where
the packages come in through all the

stations to the eventual destination.

They're noticing things.

What's delaying operations,
what's blocking us?

The number one thing that pops out of
this process is they have unwittingly used

batch processes where they are not needed.

We all use batch process.

Nobody runs a single sock in the
washer and dryer, and nobody runs

a single spoon in the dishwasher.

So we get the value of batch processes,
but they were doing this to a fault.

So the idea was let's wait until a bunch
of packages build up on the receiving

dock, and then we'll do the scanning
into inventory all at once, like boop,

that'll be quote unquote efficient.

But what Suett helped them realize
is that there was no natural

organic reason to have these delays.

That, as he said, the system should flow
like a river and we should be able to

take a package and have it flow along
and we should be removing friction,

removing obstacles from its way.

And so it's like this ah-ha
experience they set about completely

changing the way they work.

Within 12 weeks, they're delivering
90% of the packages in one day.

Something nobody thought
imaginable, much less practical.

People start visiting the receiving
area to learn what they've done.

And so again, if you zoom out of the story
for a second, there is zero of natural

intrinsic value in any of these details.

I mean, I said the, the phrase
batch processes, and you didn't

immediately go to sleep, right?

Which is, that's the
power of story, right?

Is once we see a protagonist
and a challenge and some stakes

that matter, like we're in it.

Matt Abrahams: But with that batch
processing, you did something I

think, which is very masterful,
is you didn't define it.

You didn't say, here's
what a batch process is.

'Cause many people know what it
is, but they don't know that term.

But you just said, we don't wash one sock.

We don't put one spoon in the dishwasher.

That was a great way of explaining
something without actually breaking it

down and saying, now I'm explaining it.

You do a great job of hooking
us in and diagnosing and

describing for us what you do.

I'm curious, how do
you find these stories?

How did you find Paul Suett?

Did you know him?

Did somebody point you to him?

Did you, were you in that hospital?

How did you find that story?

Dan Heath: This is the most frustrating
and rewarding aspect of the work is the

majority of the way I spend my time as
a writer is finding stories like that.

I spend a lot of time figuring out
what am I trying to say to the reader?

How am I gonna arm them with principles
to make their life or their work better?

That's part one.

And then part two is how can I hang
those principles on stories that are

more compelling than me just yammering
on about systems and operations and so

forth, and it is like panning for gold.

I mean, you've probably
experienced this too.

There is no reliable process
for finding great stories.

It is just, you gotta go shake the
trees every day, and then the next

day you wake up and you do it again.

This particular story was written up in
a business school case, and there was

a very heavy operation spin on it, but
there was so much that was interesting

in the details that my team and I, we
decided to re-report the whole thing.

So I, one of my colleagues actually flew
to, uh, Evanston and met with Paul Suett

and saw the operations and took pictures.

And in that case it was like
taking a different spin on a story

someone else had already spotted.

In a lot of other cases in the book,
it was just a byproduct of you have

10 conversations to get down to
that one story that really connects.

Matt Abrahams: I like though that you
start with an idea, a goal of what

you're trying to achieve, and the goal
is to really help people and to clearly

explain it and then find stories and
other tools that can help get that across.

And I think a lot of people skip
that step and they just try to

jump to the information without
having a clear goal upfront.

Dan Heath: Yeah.

For me, stories are just like
a vessel to get messages across

in a reader friendly way.

So it's like what that Northwestern story
did for me at the start of the book, was

it just it brought to bear a bunch of
themes that even people that are not in

hospital receiving areas can recognize.

What is it like to be part of a system
that's stuck and what is it like to

endure subpar performance but feel
like you're powerless to affect it.

And you know, and have other people in the
hospital judge you, you know, the pariahs

of the hospital was a quote that came out.

And what is it like to be able to undo
that by finding leverage points and

complicated systems and seeing how things
can change, actually surprisingly quickly,

if you find the right places to push.

Matt Abrahams: So it really sets
expectations for what's to come, not

just in terms of what you'll be talking
about in the book, but how the reader

or listener will be engaged and how we
set our audience's expectations upfront

can really make a big difference.

One of the things that frustrates
me so much is speakers or people

who run meetings who start by
saying, I want this to be very

engaging and get you all involved.

And then they talk at you for 45 minutes.

What you do in your books, and in this
example, is you get us engaged from the

get go, and that brings us along with you.

I wanna explore some
concepts in your new book.

You talk about how we can break free
from the inertia that keeps us doing

the same things we've always done.

In essence, you suggest we find
leverage points that help us break

these patterns or habits or just
the way it's always been approach.

Can you explain what leverage points
are and provide some examples and

talk about how we can actually use
them to affect the change we want?

Dan Heath: Leverage points are an absolute
core theme of the book, and they are

defined as places where a little bit of
effort yields a disproportionate return.

Because in complex systems, we
can't fix everything at once.

We can't fix most things.

We have to place our bets, and so about
half the book is dedicated to how do

you find these elusive, magical leverage
points where a little bit goes a long way.

I want to tell, most of
the book is organizational.

So let me just say that explicitly.

I don't want to give people the
wrong impression, but I want to tell

a personal story 'cause I think it,
it captures the leverage point idea.

It's a story about a couple's
therapist named Laura Heck.

And so if you just put yourself in
her shoes for a second, every day her

calendar is full of married couples or, or
couples on the brink of divorce that are

at the worst ebb of their relationship.

Everything is wrong.

They may hate each other,
they may resent each other.

There are a million things wrong.

The history goes back for years, and you
see them for one hour a week out of 168.

Talk about not being able to
change much of the equation, right?

You have to find a leverage point.

How else could you possibly affect
something as fraught as a marriage

on the cusp of divorce in one hour?

So Laura Heck does this thing.

She has this activity, she
calls sticky note appreciations.

And the idea is you put a sticky note
pad by your toothbrush holder in the

bathroom and as you brush your teeth,
'cause you're, you know, you're gonna

be doing that twice a day and you
got nothing else to do while you're

brushing, you just pick up a pen, you
write down something that your partner

did that you appreciated that day.

It might be something quite small like,
thanks for making coffee this morning, or

thanks for talking to John about college.

He really appreciates your
perspective, whatever it is.

And then you put it on the
mirror for your partner to find.

And she says, the point of this activity
is really not to give those little

bursts of happiness that we all get when
someone says something nice about us,

that's great, but it's not the point.

The point, as she said, was to build
a lens where you start to scan your

partner's behavior for the positive
things instead of what has become an

instinctive negative approach, right?

The reason you're in therapy is
because now when you look at your

partner, you see the conflict
and you see the disappointments,

and you see the betrayals.

And so this little silly, sticky
note activity is a way of saying,

wait a second, there's positive
there too if we're alert for it.

If we're conscious about it.

And so with that one hour a week, back
to the idea of leverage points, she is

slowly transforming the way they see
each other in a way that could open the

door to bring the relationship back.

And I just, I admire
that approach so much.

Matt Abrahams: So it's finding
these key moments or opportunities

that can really bring big change.

So it's not that you're writing
something on a sticky note while

you're frothing at the mouth brushing
your teeth, it's the fact that you're

changing your perspective in that
moment that might itself become a habit.

And we can look for those points in both
our personal and our professional lives.

So this notion of leverage
points is important.

Something else you talk about
is the idea of wasted resources

that happen in organizations.

Can you share with us what you mean
by wasted resources and what are some

ways that we can make those resources
not wasted to really leverage how they

can help us to use the other concept?

Dan Heath: So this is the second half
of Reset is the first half is devoted

to what are the leverage points, which
is really about aim, like where do you

aim if you're trying to change things.

And then the second half is about if
you want to push in a new direction,

you have to have fuel to do it.

And that means resources.

And then everybody freaks out 'cause
well, we don't have extra resources.

And so the departure point of the
second half is what if you need

resources to push in your new direction
for change, but you can't just bring

resources off the sidelines, right?

You don't have just satchels of
cash standing by for new projects.

And so one of the places where you can
quote unquote harvest resources is waste.

Waste is usually talked about
in the context of efficiency.

Like you want your factory to hum
along at 99.9% utilization or whatever.

In this context, I'm thinking of waste
as if we can stop doing the things that

don't add value for the customer, which
is a classic definition of waste from

uh, Taiichi Ohno, then we can reuse
that effort, that material in a new way.

Now, to get away from waste for a
second, I think the most important fuel

for any change effort is motivation.

Like the entire change war will be
fought on the battlefield of motivation.

And so in the book, I present this
framework, and I think it may be the

simplest change framework ever created,
but I stand by it and it's the idea

that if you imagine a Venn diagram in
your mind, and so one circle is what's

required for us to succeed at change?

The bundle of activities and goals
that we're gonna need to get to

some new place, what's required?

And then there's an intersecting
circle of what's desired today?

So in other words, all of the people
that you work with, your colleagues,

your direct reports, they have ideas
about how to make things better.

If they were made boss for the day,
they'd all say, well, we're gonna do this.

We're gonna do this, we're gonna, in
other words, there is latent motivation

in the system that needs to be tapped.

Wherever there is an intersection of
what's required and what's desired,

that's where you start the change effort.

And I say it's the simplest thing ever
recorded because a lot of times in

change efforts we fall into this trap
of immediately going to persuasion,

like, I've gotta get people to want what
I want, or else change is gonna fail.

But hang on a second.

It's not that that's a bad idea.

Of course persuasion is a good idea, but
before you even get to persuasion, if

you can just tap and unleash the energy
that's already there, you've already

catapulted yourself toward success.

Matt Abrahams: That model, although quite
simple, I have seen play out in my own

life, in my relationship with my kids.

'Cause a lot of what I find myself
doing is trying to persuade them.

When I've gotten lucky and really
tapped into that latent desire and

see their ideas and passion, that's
when things have really gotten going.

Dan Heath: It, it just reminds me,
something that literally happened this

weekend and I'd, I'd hadn't coded it
that way, but I see that it is now.

I see that it's the Venn diagram in,
in my own mind, I was trying to get

my young daughter to go with me on
a walk and I think to a child, like

going on a walk with dad is just
like way down Maslow's hierarchy.

And then I realized she likes to get
this weird iced tea, it's called, uh,

iced fireball from this coffee shop,
that's a perfect distance for us to walk.

And so I was like, Hey, you want
to go and get an iced fireball and

immediately she was like, oh yeah, I'm in.

And so it's okay.

That's what was desired, that was
the latent desire in the system, and

there was overlap and shame on me
for not getting there immediately.

Matt Abrahams: I love this
idea of trying to find waste.

In other words, where there's this
potential, it's like potential energy

and you just have to tap into it.

Dan Heath: That's a great phrase for it.

It is potential energy and we spend so
much time browbeating people with the

vision of change and get on board, and I'm
trying to get you to buy in and, and we

just never ask the basic question, what
would you want today if it was your plan?

And look, the obvious, I think, objection
to the Venn diagram thing is it's never

gonna be a perfect overlap, right?

It's never gonna be just a perfect
coincidence where everything

that you'll have to do for
change corresponds perfectly to

everything that people want today.

But, and this is another key theme in the
book, the engine of change is progress.

And progress changes minds.

People start out skeptical of change
'cause they don't think it's gonna work.

They don't think it's gonna
make their lives better.

They, they think it's
just gonna be a nuisance.

And then when they start to see
that boulder that's obstructed your

path for so long, when they start
to see it inch in a new direction,

it makes them feel differently.

And so then new motivation comes
off the sidelines that was sparked

by the progress that they could see
as a result of that initial push.

Matt Abrahams: I love how you have
taken what is a very dry topic

of systems and systems change,
and really found two key ideas.

This notion of motivation and progress.

Very psychological concepts that we
can apply to all the systems we find.

We both write, we both do podcasting, but
we do a whole bunch of other things too.

And there's systems that surround
everything we choose to do, in terms

of the messages we craft, how we do
it, when we do it, the choices we make.

What advice do you have for exploring
and maximizing the impact systems

have or changing the systems
to help us be more efficient?

How do systems play out in what we do?

Dan Heath: So I had this weird moment
when one of the stories I was chasing

boomeranged back to my own life.

I was researching a story about the San
Francisco 49ers, and there's a guy named

Moon Javaid, one of the top executives
that was in charge of the fan experience

of people coming out to the games.

And at one point, he and his boss
start asking themselves, Hey, we

take these surveys of fans and
then whatever they're complaining

about, we fix it for the next game.

We don't have that many games
in a season, so it, it's slow.

Like, could we ever imagine
getting feedback within the game

so we can fix things faster?

And so that's a theme in the book, is
this idea of accelerating learning,

which is a way, in essence of
marshaling more resources to push in

our change direction, back to that idea.

So anyway, Moon Javaid has this
epiphany when he is in the airport

one day and he sees people using
those happy or not terminals where

you punch a green smiley face or a red
frowny face, and he's like, oh my God.

That could work for us.

And so fast forward in the story, he
becomes a pilot customer for happy or not.

They put out 150 terminals by bathrooms,
by hotdog stands, by concessions.

And so if they get like a certain density
of red frowny faces in a certain period of

time, they know ah-ha, something's wrong.

There's a clogged toilet at A8, or the
concession stand, they're, they're outta

hotdog buns, and so they can rush within
the game and fix the problems far faster.

Now it takes minutes to fix
a problem instead of a week.

So it's this huge victory
from accelerating learning.

So I started to think about that story
and I was like, how could I do that in

my writing, which seems weird, right?

I mean, where am I gonna put a
happy or not terminal, right?

And then later it occurred to me I could
learn from Agile, the discipline used by

many software and design firms, where you
do something and you get some customer

feedback, and then you tweak it and,
and iterate and get some more feedback.

Rapid prototyping.

That's it.

And so I said, what would it
look like if I wrote that way?

And so I did this thing
I'd never done before.

This is my sixth book.

This is the only book I've even
close to use this process for.

The version I turned into
the publisher was version 6.

So I had 5 full rounds of
reader feedback in the meantime.

The first was so crude,
it wasn't even in writing.

It was just me on video, like
pontificating about different

topics, and I was just curious
what would resonate with people.

And it was so different and so fun, and
it gave me such a richer flow of the

readers thinking that, I guess people
would be the judge, but I really think

it bore fruit in the final product.

However good or bad Reset is today,
let me assure you, it would've

been a lot worse had I not gotten
5 rounds of reader feedback,

Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate
you sharing how you can explore

the systems that you're part
of and look to change them.

What you just described is something I
teach is minimally viable communication.

We take the same principles from
minimally viable product design,

Agile development and apply them.

But rapid prototyping is
critical, I think, to getting

any message out in the world.

And the meta message of what you said
is look at the systems that you exist in

and then see if there are ways that you
can adjust and adapt them to help you.

I'd like to take this notion of
communication one step further.

In these organizations, in these
collectives where they leverage the

tools that you teach and write about,
what are your thoughts about how they

communicate to the teams themselves
or across the organization about what

they're doing, and help them provide
the motivation and demonstrate the

progress that we talked about before?

So it's one thing to do it, but I
can imagine a big leverage point is

the way you communicate what you've
done to keep the momentum going.

Any insights into what makes for
effective communication about

the progress you're making?

Dan Heath: Yes, and in fact, the
message was so clear, this came out of

a conversation I had with the former
CEO of Home Depot named Frank Blake.

It's so clear you could put it on a
bumper sticker, and Blake said, you

get what you celebrate, full stop.

You get what you celebrate.

But Frank Blake lived that mantra.

He would spend part of every Sunday
afternoon, I mean, the CEO one of the

world's biggest companies spent his Sunday
writing individual thank you letters

to people on his team, not just in some
generic atta boy, atta girl way, he would

highlight specific things that they did.

I heard about the way you dealt
with that customer in, in North

Georgia, blah, blah, blah.

One of the things that stuck with me
was he told this incredible story.

So one of his strategic missions was to
improve customer service at Home Depot.

He's got over a hundred
thousand employees.

How do you change that?

And at one point he had all the
store managers together at a

conference in Vegas, and he had
an opportunity to speak to them.

And he chose to tell one story about one
cashier that was from a store in Georgia.

And so he is on stage and he says,
we had this cashier, who's been

with us for years, and one day
she had an older gentleman come

up with a cart full of lumber.

And she asked him if he'd found
everything he needed okay.

And he said, yes, I did.

And then she was just gonna
make small talk to be nice.

And she said, well, if you don't
mind me asking, what's your project?

What are you working on?

And the old man stopped and paused and
he said, since you asked, my grandson

passed away recently and I've decided
that I wanted to build his casket.

And the cashier immediately said,
sir, we're so sorry for your loss,

and don't even think about pulling
out your wallet, this one's on us.

And so Frank Blake said when he
told that story, you could have

heard a pin drop in the room.

And what he was after with that story is,
number one, it's obviously recognition

for the particular cashier, but the
significance more broadly than that

was he was reshaping their mental model
of what good customer service is like.

You hear a lot of, you've gotta do the 5
S's, smile and blah, blah, blah, and all

this kind of generic stuff that ends up in
employee rule books, and he's saying, no.

This woman not only just gave stuff away
for free, which is mind blowing enough,

she didn't even check with anybody.

She didn't check with the supervisor to
ask whether it was okay to break protocol.

It was just instantly she knew what
the human thing to do would be.

And that's what Frank Blake is signaling
to people, is if we want to be better

at customer service, we need more
of that ethic, and so that's what he

means by you get what you celebrate.

Matt Abrahams: You've done a nice job of
tying back to the power of story signal,

not just an emotional experience that
you connect with your audience, but it

also shares what you aspire to be, right?

And what can be, without
just itemizing and listing.

We've talked a lot about your writing.

I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about
your podcasting, something I find

very near and dear to my heart.

You host the podcast, What It's Like
To Be, you've done lots of interviews

with lots of really interesting folk.

I'm curious, is there one thing
or two that you've taken away

that has impacted your life?

I certainly have learned a lot from
my guests that has fundamentally

changed some of the things I do.

I'm curious, is there something
that's impacted your life from

somebody you've interviewed?

Dan Heath: So for listeners, just
quickly, the show, the conceit is

that in every episode I interview
someone from a different profession.

A homicide detective or a
daycare owner or an NBA referee.

And I just asked them a thousand
nosy questions about what it's like

to do what they do and what makes
them happy and what makes them

mad, and who do they fight with.

And so this was a departure
for me because, as we've talked

about, when I'm writing these
books, my books are not poetry.

They're not literature.

They're intended to help people do
specific things to make their lives

or their work better, and so I have
this very practical minded hat on.

If I'm interviewing someone for a
book, I'm listening for, what can I

learn from Matt that I might be able
to help a hundred other people with.

On the podcast though, I just kind
of want to walk in their shoes.

I talked to two married truck drivers
who do long haul shifts together.

I mean, they might be together for 6
weeks in a row on the road, and their

lives are governed by 3 different
clocks that prescribe their behavior

and they have to obsess about where
they're gonna park, 'cause parking's

a huge deal when you have a big rig.

And I talked to a cattle rancher.

And some of the things she has to
worry about are poisonous weeds.

The cows will eat the weeds and
get sick, so she's fighting this

nonstop battle against the weeds.

And mountain lions will occasionally
come in and try to eat her cattle

and so she has a mountain lion hunter
that she can call like on speed

dial to come out and deal with it.

And I find that there's no
like direct application.

I just think that there is
a lot of power and empathy.

Like I think if we can understand our
fellow humans better and what they think

about and what brings them joy and what
gives them a sense of purpose, I think

it helps us appreciate them more, and it
seems like now is one of those times when

we need that appreciation of difference.

Matt Abrahams: It sounds to me like
a lesson you've learned or something

that motivated you to do this was
this idea of empathy and curiosity.

There's a really powerful concoction
that gets made when you combine those

two together, and what your podcast
does is really helps us through your

curiosity and through your empathy to
learn a lot, and, and I appreciate that.

Well, before we end, I like
to ask three questions.

One I create just for you,
and the other two are similar

across everybody I interview.

Are you up for these questions?

Dan Heath: I'm ready.

Let's do this.

Matt Abrahams: All right.

One of the books that you wrote
that really also had a big impact

on me was The Power of Moments.

I'm curious, is there anything you do in
your personal life to really spark some

moments maybe for your family, your kids,
your friends, is there something that

you took from that work that you do that
helps you and those you know and love?

Dan Heath: Absolutely.

The Power Moments is a book about the
disproportionate power of specific

moments in our memories of experiences,
the way that, if you think about a, a

family or a personal vacation from three
or four years ago, you don't load up

the video of that experience in your
mind and play it end to end, right?

A lot of it dissolves.

And what you're left with are the
most significant moments, or in the

parlance of the book, at the peaks.

And, and so the kind of big
message of the book is we can

be the authors of these peaks.

Sometimes they just happen
by happenstance, but we can

be intentional about it.

And so like a couple of things that
I've learned from readers, actually,

I had this one guy come up to me at a
conference and say he'd read the book

and he'd tried something with his kids.

He called it a perfect day exercise.

So he had young kids like I do.

He said, I want you to draw up your
perfect day on paper, like from when

you wake up to when you go to bed.

And if you don't fill it with
fantastical things like, oh, we're

gonna fly to the moon for a picnic
or something, if, if you keep it

real like your mom and I are really
gonna try to make this happen, we're

gonna bring your perfect day to life.

But he made them draw it out.

He wanted them to put some thought
into it and they had to put together

an agenda with times and, and events.

And I was just so captivated by that idea.

I immediately stole it for my own kids.

And what happened with his kids
was exactly what happened with

mine, which is you would think
that kids would be grandiose and

they'd wanna do crazy things.

They'd wanna spend a lot of money.

And instead, it was the most
like heartwarming set of things.

It was like my younger daughter
wanted to get up and have eggs and

bacon and cinnamon rolls, which
is what we have every Sunday.

It's not like that was a
weird or unusual request.

And then she wanted to
take a bath in the morning.

She wanted to take another bath at night,
and then she wanted to watch such and

such a movie, and she wanted to have
a play date with such and such friend.

And it was striking to me that
I think sometimes as parents,

we may overcomplicate things.

If I think about how do I create a
moment for my kids, maybe I'm thinking,

oh, we need a bounce house, or I need
to have a rent a pony come out and,

and if you just ask them, it turns
out that's not what perfect means.

Perfect means something quite different.

And so I've really enjoyed that aspect
of moment creation, just trusting

the people that you care about
to articulate what perfect means.

Matt Abrahams: That's a really
powerful lesson, and thank

you, and how sweet to do that.

And sometimes the most powerful
moment could be one that somebody

else suggests and not us.

Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Dan Heath: I would say the
author David Foster Wallace.

I'm a huge fan of his.

And I think I might be the only
person who's more a fan of his

nonfiction than of his fiction.

He's best known as a novelist and wrote
the great book Infinite Jest, which is

about 20 pounds if you carry around.

But he also wrote these just amazing
essays, like one of his essay collections

is called A Supposedly Fun Thing I'd Never
Do Again, about a cruise that he took and

he's, he's kind of an antisocial person,
so it was just hilarious to hear him riff

on what it was like to go on a cruise.

And what I admire about his style is he
just has this almost limitless curiosity

about everything, about psychology, about
business about social norms and why they

exist, and so he'll just follow these
kind of spiraling wormholes of curiosity.

I admire the way that, that he
can get a point across and has

complete control of language.

He can throw out words you've never
even seen in your life and then

the next sentence is just full of
the most up to the moment slang.

Like he just has, he
has the full repertoire.

Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that, and I
love that you respect somebody who has

a way with words, but also storytelling.

Final question.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Dan Heath: Okay, the recipe.

All right, three steps.

Let's do this.

Number one, know what the most
important thing you need to

leave the audience with is.

What's the core message
in Made to Stick terms?

Know your core message, and I think
the reason why people don't do that,

even though it sounds commonsensical,
is because people, when you start

putting the presentation together or
the memo, it's like you kind of wanna

show off all the things you've learned
and all these insights you have, and

you just get greedy with your ideas.

But if we're gonna be respectful of the
audience and the way memories decay,

like if we wanna have one thing that
endures in their head three weeks in the

future after the point of communication,
like what would that one thing be?

Second is, highlight the aspects of that
one thing that are uncommonsensical,

common sense does not stick.

Common sense by definition is
something that's already stuck.

And if somebody hears something that
sounds like common sense, they're just

gonna ignore it because it in no way
reshapes their view of the world or

their opinions or their perspectives.

So you've gotta figure out what
about your message is uncommon sense.

And if the answer is it nothing, then
you got the wrong core message, right?

There's something that made you think
that core message was important.

What is it and how does it clash with
the way your audience thinks right now?

And then third, this will come
as no surprise for anybody who's

listened to this interview is
find a story to wrap that in.

So do you want a core message
that's uncommonsensical,

that's wrapped up in a story.

That's my recipe.

How'd I do?

Matt Abrahams: You did great.

Not just at sharing the three, but at
summarizing the three at the end, which

is what I often do and you've done a
reset for me, so I don't have to do that.

I appreciate Dan, not only your
time, but your stories, and for role

modeling exactly what it is that
you teach, not just in your new book

Reset, but across all your books.

Thank you for your time and
thank you for your insights.

Dan Heath: Hey, thanks so much, Matt.

It's been a pleasure.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another Rethinks episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast
To learn more from Dan, tune into

episode 49 with his brother Chip Heath.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

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