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Welcome to the Rail Technology Magazine Podcast. Keeping you up-to-date with the most current rail industry news, giving you an all-access pass to the key insights and innovations helmed by the decision makers in our industry
Episode 52.mp3
Transcript
Speaker 1
I love a challenge and I think CU is a good challenge. Because we've you. Know we've we've signed up to some really stretch and sustainability targets.
Speaker 2
Many people in room will know we've made. A choice to. Make a commitment then to decarbonise, using this more expensive product, so there is definitely a trade off there, which we've considered very much on the financial merit.
Speaker 3
Do we use recycle plastic sleepers or do we reuse some concrete sleepers that we're pulling up from all the? Bits of the track.
Speaker 4
This is the rail Technology Magazine podcast. Bringing you views. Insight and conversation from leaders across the rail industry presented by Richard Wilcock.
Speaker 5
Welcome to the fall for the special series. Looking back at the leaders debates from the transition Royal N conference. 2023 let's join the conference host Helen for a Sparrow.
Speaker 6
Our sustainability is such a critical issue. Now, our next panel will be looking at carbon management leadership and how we're meeting the challenges of leading whole life carbon based decisions this in partnership. With Arab working with major contractors, Network Rail, HS2 and transport for the North, Arab gives exclusive access to some of the key projects where demand for suppliers is at its highest. So let's welcome our panellists to stage they are Andy Belcham, Directorate Arab Anna Humphreys, head of sustainability and social value. Trans Pennine rail upgrade and Sarah Jolliffe, environmental sustainability business partner at Bam. I've got my iPad, so do keep your questions coming. Gosh, the panels are getting smaller. More intimate. I feel like somebody should come and serve as a pot of tea right now. Lovely to see all. Of you, I'd like to try and set the scene and ask all of you the same question to begin with. Starting off with Andy as leaders. How are you all becoming more carbon carbon literate and what's that journey been like, Andy?
Speaker 3
I mean carbon. Literacy is this is this is complex. This is a big problem we've got. So it's serious. It's urgent and it's really important. And you can't do it on your own. So the only way we can become literate is actually just sharing everything we have between each other to carry that on. So as an individual read a book because we haven't grown up with this and built our experience in that space, that we've got a feel for time, cost, quality, schedule, safety, all of those things through our careers. But this feels like something fairly new and we've got to build on the experience. Talk to people who really know about it. To help get comfortable and become literate. And the more you share, the more you talk, the more you build it into the day-to-day, then then we even become fluent.
Speaker 6
And have you really enjoyed the challenge just as you were talking? There is reminding me, but my brother actually, he's worked at Phillips 66 and he's just become head of sustainability. To them, and it's a very steep learning curve for me, even though he's been in their business for 35 years. But is it something that you've really embraced and getting the sort of brain working around all the new stuff that you've got to get your brain around?
Speaker 3
I I think it's. And and those who know me that this is this is quite personal as well. So it's a bit like behavioural safety. You've got to be doing the right thing all the time, even when no one's looking. So although I have like big influence working on transplant and route upgrade that people have just been talking about that you have big influence to make some big impact but equally. I'm really curious about my own carbon footprint. What am I doing? What impact do I have? Because it's quite hard to you know, what is a tonne of whole life? Carbon, what does it look like? So being really curious about that and talking to people, then everybody starts. A wider conversation, a deeper conversation, and then you can apply that wider at work as well. Be more influential.
Speaker 6
Absolutely, Anna. What's it been like for you?
Speaker 1
So for me, carbon retreat is all about raising the awareness, peace and knowledge in actually what carbon is. Because if you don't understand it, you're never gonna be able to buy into it and make a difference. And on TRU, we we run carbon literary workshops, which is aimed not only at our executive leadership, but also every role within the programme to make sure that people understand. And what it is not just what it means for work, but at home as well. And then they can understand how they can make an impact and influence that as part.
Speaker 6
Of their day job and their roles, and have you enjoyed the challenges and and the learning that's been that?
Speaker 1
You've had to do absolutely. I mean I I love a challenge and I think CU is a good challenge because we've, you know, we've we've signed up to some really stretch and sustainability. Targets of which I'm really proud of, but that's it's a challenge to meet those. So that, but that's really exciting to do and it's a it's it's a key part of the.
Speaker 6
Day job. Just bring Sarah into the conversation, Sarah. It'll be new to all of us, won't it? Looking around the table. Although I'm definitely older than all of you, but our kind of generation, we haven't grown up with this like our, you know, like our children have. How have you found?
Speaker 2
Learning. Yeah, thanks for that. I think for me, I can reflect really personally on this because I'm not a born tree hugger, right, sustainability professional. I'm kind of bored and. As a tradesperson, right, so that skills are building. I I know how to put stuff together. That's kind of my bag. Made a bit of a transition in 2015 to the course and I gotta get it. I thought let's actually start treating this like an. Engineering challenge as opposed to this really big kind of let's not eat the elephant, right. And in one go, that's the the thing. But I think for me personally, I've found it as a bit of an awakening. That's really lifted me from being sort of on the tools as a trade person. So the bigger piece and actually understanding how I can play a role to be part of the solution, because I think that that's something I can. Get behind and changing behaviours. Yes, doing the whole understanding piece, doing the literacy piece. But fundamentally getting people buying and I think I'm pretty good at connecting with people on that level because I've got that understanding. So that's that's good.
Speaker 6
I like the way you described it there as sort of thinking of it as an engineering problem. It's good to see. It in a way. Has a problem that you know you can probably fix. I would imagine that's a good way of looking at it, but Sarah, we have more lower carbon materials. But do they sometimes come at a price? You know, over social value, for example, or at a higher cost? How do you get that balance right?
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a really good question, isn't it? There's a lot of competing priorities when it comes to making the right choices about sustainability, and I think this also dovetails back to the literacy piece because. There can be an obvious choice on a decarbonisation merit. But that may also impact on social. So, for example, if we want to use a supplier of a particular low carbon material, that might only be available in somewhere 500 miles away from your job. So that's not helping with the local employment and the local skills piece. So there's a bit of a trade off there sometimes, and there's a whole myriad of other examples that you can. Throw into the pot. Particularly around some of the emerging emerging challenges around biodiversity as well. I've heard specialists in my organisation talk about embodied biodiversity. So are we starting to trade that off in the pursuit of actually delivering decarbonization? Because there's an obvious? Like there, but it really strikes me that a lot of the tools that we need, a lot of the technologies we need to deliver on their agenda are available today, just needs a level of literacy and understanding. So I think that's where it is.
Speaker 6
For me, I think Andy Sarah's right there. I think there's there are a lot of competing choices. And I'm just wondering how you get that balance.
Speaker 3
Greater Arab so it this is. A really complicated and complex problem. So and and as an engineer and and we want to do it properly, which makes it an enormous task, which we can't possibly do on our own. So what do we do that we share everything with it? So from the key membership of sort of open data institutes to the? Ice breaker. One initiative that's around global at the moment. Similar similar process to sort of open banking went through when all the banks decided, wouldn't it be better if we shared all our data across a common? That form that started 2025 years ago and yet now we're just instantly sharing on our apps and phones quite easily. That took a lot of effort to get to that, sharing everything with trust so. In terms of, you know, a a cube of concrete, what's it's carbon? Well, it all depends, is it precast, is it poured, is it in Huddersfield, is it in Hong Kong? How do you measure something that's so complex? So is a a locally produced bit of concrete line site troughing for railway? Is that better for social value local employment or is it better to buy some recycled reused plastic shipped from abroad, so very complex to try and work out? What it is? So if everybody shares their data, then everybody learns more so. Don't collect data. Connect it, I think is is probably what we talk about a lot are.
Speaker 6
Yeah, that's a really, really good phrase, actually. I mean, it feels like it's putting together a really complex jigsaw puzzle because you think a piece might fit and then perhaps you look at its journey and realise where it's come from. And and it's perhaps not as good as you think. Anna, just wondering if you can use the Transpennine route upgrade perhaps as a as an example for us and how you're trying to get things right with the project. With that.
Speaker 1
So I think most people in the room might have heard the same of the last couple of years, minimum viable products, and I think that's something that's been misinterpreted about it's gotta be the cheapest option. It's not. It's gotta be the right option. So what we do is make sure carbon is a key discussion point at this through every review and through every option here in stage to make sure the right decisions are being made. So it's the right carbon low low carbon options. And and it's got to be, although there's a higher cost to carbon upfront cost. We've got I think of whole. Life costs because. That gives us a lot of savings in the long term, whether that's reduced maintenance or actually we see a lot of reduction in on on site programme because the right decisions that we've made and on TRU. We we make sure that we don't prioritise one target of the others. We've got very clear stretch and carbon biodiversity, social life targets for the public about that to make sure that we don't compromise. One over the other, but what we've also done is worked with TFT to secure a 30,000,000 LBS Carbon Innovation Fund to make sure that we are we are making the right decisions and making sure cost doesn't get in the way. So we've got intelligent engineer and that takes us, you know so far up to that 30% target. But this innovation funds there to really drive that. You know, are we doing the right thing? We've got brand new ideas, products and materials that we can utilise trial on Cru and then set that legacy for the future for.
Speaker 6
Other projects. So how do excuse my ignorance on this, but how does that fund work? How does the fund help?
Speaker 1
You. Yeah, sure. So we we we're and it's a question for the room, it's a, you know, a plea to the room. We are willing to take ideas from anybody in the industry, uhm, via the TRU ideas and never rail.co.uk web e-mail address. And when ideas come in, we've got quite a clear, strict criteria of what those ideas have got to meet from a carbon cost point of view, for us to then decide, take it to panel. We've got a carbon panel. We then decide if it's the right choice to take. Forward to meet all of our requirements and it can use that fund to.
Speaker 6
Make a real difference, and just before I move on to Sarah, just spotted a a question on the iPad. Anna, what's being done and Network Rail to ensure that the reported environmental figures are correct and that there's not any green wash.
Speaker 1
So we so we do a lot of reporting and Network Rail. I'm sure people in the room know that, but we do a lot of assurance on that data to make sure that it is correct and it's accurate whether it's carbon, biodiversity or waste anything like that. But we do a lot of cheques on that to make sure it is the right message that we're given and you know we're and we're very transparent and open especially on CU. What we do so that we're not greenwashing, but we're just being really transparent. And if we do have challenges or we're underperforming, we share that.
Speaker 6
As well, brilliant. Sarah. Just wondering if you've got any examples that you can share about how you and other companies balance your priorities when you are making those low carbon choices?
Speaker 2
Yeah, sure. I think for for BAM, the example I can give to the room is really around this whole HBO debate. So when we look at the pros and cons of such technologies, we think, OK, well, it's gonna cost a lot more, it's, you know, sort of sort of 3040% more in some cases, but you've got to then trade that off between the organisational decarbonization. Targets, which at Bam are actually linked to our revolving credit facility at BAM Group level, so. That actually happened in 2023, and as many people in room will know, we've made a choice to make a commitment then to decarbonise, using this more expensive product. So there is definitely a trade off there, which we've considered very much on the financial merits, essentially. Yes, it is delivering decarbonization. Yes, it is real. That particular product is not without its challenges. But it's certainly the right thing to be doing on the stepping stones towards electrification and the hydrogen that we. See and I do see that we're putting our foot forward the 1st. It's something that we made commitments around and it's costing us money. That's not something I can look to colleagues in Network Rail and say you know at this point in time you need to pay for that actually you know that's something we've got to carry the can for at this point in time. So it's about being responsible, showing that kind of leadership and that. You know, unless somebody takes that baton, then it won't. It won't happen, you know, showing real willpower.
Speaker 6
And the data literacy or carbon literacy, which is more important? Or both. Perhaps they're equally as important.
Speaker 3
Well, carbon literacy, I mean, there's numerous universities now and degree courses where carbon literacy is just a mandated module of every course, like in Manchester every single course. But. But actually I think data literacy is more important. So if we're trying to measure carbon and we've, we've all made-up our own languages.
Speaker 6
Really I didn't realise that that's a very good idea.
Speaker 3
Either by geography, by sector, by business, whether it's trying to make design really lean so there's less material, but then it depends what material you're procuring, how you install it, how long it's going to be there for is it reused, is it recycled, is it? All of these things is so complex that we've got to get a hang of data first so that myself and Anna are often have quite conversations about, you know, if you ask someone or how much carbon has you saved. Well, if they're not carbon literate, they have no idea what language you're talking. Whereas if you said, can you tell me the volume of concrete that you've saved? There's a different language there and people will be able to go and find out that data in their existing businesses, so data literacy. Definitely first, but you're doing it to bring carbon management and the leadership of that into day-to-day business operations. But data is probably more important than carbon.
Speaker 6
But when you're. Working and then with the supply chain. How? What are you looking to them for in terms of knowledge? What do they need to demonstrate to you to be considered as as a supplier in our kind of brave new world we're in?
Speaker 3
Well, I think it comes back to the first point that you. Know this is serious. Important and urgent and we can only do it together. So you've got to do it all collectively at the same time. So are there lower carbon products that could be used and can be specified? Or do you just stop designing and building those products? But then of course with trying to get to transplant and route upgrade, you're trying to decarbonize the transport system by getting people out of cars onto trains. So you've got to spend some carbon to get again. It's really complex. So supply chains with great ideas, lower carbon products. There are some fantastic stuff out to get them into specification. Get them into the procurement and if they cost some more then they come to carbon panel and say is that worth the price? But if then you've got to transport them from miles away rather than being locally produced you end up might be doing more initial carbon for a better whole life carbon. So again it comes back to data sharing the data in a common language common format really openly. Again, connecting, not collecting. Then everybody can start my joint ups decisions with everybody at the.
Speaker 6
Same time. Is that what you do? And they're at network.
Speaker 1
Yes, yeah, we we're very open about what we do and it the data is so important that we've gotta make sure we've got all that in place to be able to make the right decisions and it's something that's missing, I guess at the moment we really need clear databases so we can. We've got that during the option here and say just to understand what do we know what's out there and how can we utilise that to really drive performance or there's more work to be done. In that area that Andy said about building those that right data piece in the.
Speaker 6
Databases question for you. It's just popped up. Anna. What a Network Rail. What part of Network Rail playing and making sure social value carbon reduction and biodiversity net gain are understood by funding bodies.
Speaker 1
It's a good question. So we work really closely with. So the DfT to make sure that all these areas are considered especially a part of the business case. And I'm I guess, I'm proud to say on TRU, we've actually in the last business case review this year, we've managed to embed social value and they're well-being assessments as part of that business case and. For the first time in the industry to make sure that is considered and a key part of that.
Speaker 6
So you know, we're changing a lot in this area at the moment, but we're working very closely with the DfT to make sure that that is key considerations for funding going forward. Sarah, perhaps one you can take what are the panel thoughts on circular economy and how is this considered with carbon management?
Speaker 2
Am really tough. It comes back to that thing around whole life. Carbon I think and understanding coming back to the data literacy piece it. So yeah, very, very highly complex and I think fundamentally to add to that point specifically, we've got the wrong people by and large looking at data, actually it's a lot of very highly paid professionals mucking about on spreadsheets that needs to be going to the right level of person. So I'd suggest the younger generation, which I've got a couple of in my team for prioritised doing that. So once we have all of that. We're then in a much better place to make better decisions. So when we think about the circularity mix between and body, carb and and what that does, there's a big push to move to things like timber construction. So are working quite extensively with our construct part of BAM at the moment. And yeah, that there is a big significant approach. They're saying yes, Tim's brilliant. We'll just build everything out. Shall we? But actually, is there a longer term, whole life thing there we need to consider around maintenance of that because it doesn't have the longevity of steel and concrete and is it necessarily lower carbon when you consider the whole life impact of that timber, where is it sourced? What's its impact on biodiversity in those ecosystems? Are we just replanting? Our plantation deserts, as they recall by our biodiversity specialists to me so. Once we have the data on those things and I think we are getting a lot better at that, we then have a clear picture to make those decisions. But by and large up to today, I would suggest that we're we're kind of basing it on things that we kind of gut feel we think we know, but we don't know and that's why data.
Speaker 6
Is so important. Were you looking like you wanted to jump? In there, Andy, go on.
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's just reminding me of circular economy is not new. Although we're talking about it differently now, one of the first rail jobs I ever worked on was replacing a a bridge at Sandbach and the deck when we were taking out had a load of sort of just holes in the beams. And so as a young engineer, why they there? Well, that's those beams were used on a bridge somewhere else before, before it was. Yeah. So I can't imagine now taking out a bridge deck and putting it in another place that would comply with the standards. So challenging, you've got to challenge a lot more about how we can reuse the material in new novel ways instead of just sending it off or recycling it or repurposing, but. Are doing a massive amount in this space with ballast, with track with sleepers going on TRU, we've had a a wide debate about do we use recycled plastic sleepers or do we reuse some concrete sleepers that we're pulling up from other bits of the track that's been a rich discussion. And and you can again you can imagine the data sets trying to work out what the right answer is, and I know there's someone down there, Callum, who's who's been working on it hugely and I think we've now it's far better to reuse existing sleepers because you've already got them and embedded rather than even something new and recycled. But it's been a great discussion.
Speaker 6
Yeah, I've, I've I.
Speaker 3
That reuse.
Speaker 6
Would imagine it has, so I'm just wondering are we consistent in how we measure carbon? And are there common methods that need to be applied not just across rail but but across industry?
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a much bigger thing, isn't it? And the answer to that is no. We're definitely not consistent in doing that. And having been party to quite a substantial amount of report in, in my time at the centre of balance for the last kind of eight years, to be honest, the auditing process is not robust enough to test that yet. It's been counter territory. They look at one thing, look at one thing and say yes, great, correct answer. You have a source, but it isn't the right answer and I don't know about people in the room, but I find it very difficult to stand on a stage and proclaim all the carbon peace about bam without actually knowing that that's genuine. And talks a bit to the green washy thing, I guess, but in terms of what is happening is getting better. Definitely. So a lot of Epds talked to a few people upstairs about their products and processes and that gets mentioned a lot more. So I think people are really getting behind that. Again, understanding of the data. And I think generally it's it is improving, you've got things like the BCD for the built environment. Carbon database that's been commissioned by. Works. That's project that bounds been involved with, amongst others as well to develop a a central source of truth. There are various different libraries available for people to start calculating carbon, but I think that's gonna be quite a a step change and that's only just been put out, by the way. So in a couple of months. So I. Think it'd be really good to engage with?
Speaker 6
That fantastic. A couple of questions coming in. Anna, perhaps today we've talked about the importance of affordability and social outcomes. How do we make sure carbon is a decision factor within investment decisions? That question from Turner and Townsend.
Speaker 1
So I guess I'll tell you that's a really good example of how carbon has been considered because the whole one of the main benefits of TRU is the decarbonisation of the roots. So it saves us £6 million worth of of sorry 6,000,000 tonnes of carbon just by doing what we're doing and that's been massive part of the business case and the benefits case because you could see how it's said from government. Targets requirements, DFTS targets then what? TRU and how that feeds into all of that on the decarbonisation agenda. Environmental benefits. So. I think CLU is a good example for other projects going forward about how to use carbon as a big decision maker.
Speaker 6
Fantastic. Andy, how can we ensure we move forward with renewable energy sources like solar or wind farming?
Speaker 3
Again, there are there. There's quite a few initiatives around in terms of there's lots of land. So you've got lots of South facing embankments in the Network Rail. How can we use that lots of South facing roofs for renewables seems some great examples around our compounds. We're getting to net 0 compounds and when we're doing big infrastructure projects so. Solar generation, even some hydrogen on some sites now, people are really exploring the innovation about how can we decarbonize, what we all need to be doing is talking to each other about this. Did it work? Was it cheaper? And certainly the the upfront cost tends to be higher, but then. Beyond that, that the running cost the operational, therefore you come into a whole life tends to be far more efficient, lots of opportunity. But that's where the carbon fund comes in that that upfront cost removes that as a blocker for people to use it. But the case studies are quite thin on the ground. I would say we all need to be talking more about what we're doing and how it went. Even the even the stuff that didn't go very well, we should be talking about that. So nobody else does it.
Speaker 6
Well, we all learn. We learn from failure too, don't we? Sorry, that my earpiece keeps dropping out. But, Sarah, what? What about the role of modern methods of construction? What role can they play in decarbonisation?
Speaker 2
What about it? Definitely. There's a lot. Talk about modern methods of construction. Ever since I came into the kind of central sustainability space it's been hailed as this thing that can unlock so much efficiency, not just in reduced emissions and all the good stuff that comes with that, but also from a cost perspective. And I think that's probably where there's the biggest opportunity side processes as we know high risk, right? So the weather plays. A lot of. A big part in in what we do, if you can actually modularize stuff and make that more contained so you can just go drop into site effectively like Lego bricks and that has to be better and it's demonstrably proven as better so. I think there's huge wins to be gained by doing modular and it's something that again reflecting on what BAM is doing in our Irish business, we have a modular homes business that's actually implemented some modular homes for the Ukrainian refugees recently, which is quite a nice little project actually. So it's doing that really quickly. They've done that in partnership with John Sisk and delivered that as part of a kind of government. That thing so it can be done very quickly. It's done very high predictability with lower risk. And what's not to like? It's kind of the question, and while they're at it, they can decarbonize as well, which I'm delighted to see. So they've got much more controls in place. How do we do that in rail?
Speaker 6
The exciting project actually, and how do we exactly exactly what? Also, what role can finance play Sara in driving decarbonization?
Speaker 2
It gets to that, yeah. Yeah. So the role of finance is massive. If I've learned anything in the past eight years, it's really I can talk to you all day long about tonne of carbon or tree or something like this doesn't really land, does it? Look, we're all trying to run businesses. At the end of the day, so if I can articulate what I need to get done on our sustainability agenda in pounds and pence, I'm quite much more likely to get traction and that's exactly what we did with things like the HBO piece we said, OK, what is this going to cost the business versus what it could cost us in attracting essentially higher debt or kind of shareholder pressure and this sort of thing? And the result is as we've seen. So we've been pretty good on that particular front. But I will say it's not always the case. There are solutions which do cost more in the decarbonisation space that, you know, low carbon concrete could be one of them because you got to think about production, you've got to build that into programme. That's a longer. Time. It's a higher, expensive product, but actually you got to think about the whole life piece. What is this actually going to do? As like you said, a minimum viable product we have to do these things in the. Conscious way. There's your answer. Build building it in really so everyone has to talk to each other. And I like the point you made only before. You know, we need to keep doing that, I think. Unlock the dialogue and stop worrying about our own self-interest, but yeah.
Speaker 6
Really important and a quick question from R Watts, does Network Rail recognise that sometimes the commercial models used in procurement stroke tender assessments sometimes are odds with the environment and sustainability objective?
Speaker 1
Sure. Yeah. So it's it's a, it's a constant journey. I think procurement about how do we balance the different requirements to make sure the right decisions are being made and it's something that we're working really hard on in that rail to make sure that sustainability agenda is getting bigger and better and it's got increased weight and to make sure the right decisions are being made so that it's not just put to one side you know. A last thought. It's, you know, cost, you know is the right, you know the main answer. So we there's a lot of work to I I admit there's a lot of work that's done to be done in that space with Network Rail. But I think we are on that journey now and it has changed over the last just two. Years sustainability has got a much greater percentage weighting now and it's a mandatory requirement on every procurement activity which you know that's only happened in the last two years. So I think we're getting there, but there's a lot of.
Speaker 6
Work to be done still. Just thought it be nice to end Andy by asking whether in. The sustainability field. Whether you're embracing apprentice apprentices, we're having our apprentice. Panel after the tea break and you know, I suppose I I looked at my children. My children are digital natives. And you know, I learned to send an e-mail when I was 30, something. And you mentioned university degrees and the, you know, the the things that people are learning now at university at Arup, do you embrace that? I don't know the gem Y who have grown up with sustainability being. Know a real a real problem.
Speaker 3
Yes. And I think I think it's very easy to say that's OK. The youngsters will sort this out. They know more about it and. Step away from it. But that's not the leadership of it. So I think I see a lot of really good shiny strategic documents and some frameworks to operate in, you know past 28, it gives a whole thing, but loads of people. Know more about. It so joining that up, I think is where the real leadership about carbon management comes. Is joining that new thinking that new drive that incentivisation to it and they know far more. Into how do we lead this and create the right environment for that to thrive? And I think there's a bit of a gap in there at the moment. So the more that you try and close that gap and get that common language sharing what's going on, they'll soon be leaders. They'll soon be driving this and there'll be a new problem. To solve.
Speaker 6
Fantastic. I've really enjoyed our debate. It's been lovely to have three of you have had plenty of time for all of you, I think, but thank you very much. Fascinating discussion and keep going, please. Thank you.
Speaker
Thank you.
Speaker 4
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