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Welcome to “It’s Marketing’s Fault”. If you are a marketer, this phrase is familiar to you. Sometimes deserved, often times not.
Don’t worry, you are among marketers and friends here. Let’s discuss how to do marketing the right way.
As a side note, in episodes 1 through 37, this was Build That Podcast. The goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to use a podcast to grow your business and expand your influence. If you go back and listen to earlier episode (those before November 2023) you will hear that name. Don't worry--it's good content too. :)
Jim Pietruszynski [0:00 - 0:49]: So we talk about the brand always being at the center and having a purpose. And from that radiates all the different touch points that the brand has to express itself in the world. Not all of that do we touch, but we set up the standards and we set up the vision, and we set up where and how the brand should look and live in a style guide. We've also incorporated a lot of cross functional agency partners that get together, that manage. They might manage the digital aspect, or they might manage the PR aspect of it, or the media getting all the work together and talking about the work so that it all feels consistent. You're gonna feel a better experience for the brand rather than disjointed what I call marketing stunts that some brands do to get quick awareness.
Eric Rutherford [0:49 - 1:15]: Welcome to it's Marketing's fault podcast, where we discuss how to do marketing the right way. I'm your host, Eric Rutherford. I'm thrilled today because I have with me Jim Pietruzynski. He is the CEO of Soulsight, which is a brand design agency with 30 plus years of experience in building emotive brands that move. He's worked with global giants like Kraft Heinz, Coca Cola, Pfizer, so many more. Jim, welcome to the show.
Jim Pietruszynski [1:15 - 1:16]: Thanks for having me, Eric.
Eric Rutherford [1:17 - 1:33]: It is my pleasure. Now, I really liked that description of emotive brands that move. So when we talk about emotive brands, would you just define what an emotive brand is and what it looks like?
Jim Pietruszynski [1:34 - 4:15]: So, you know, what we focus on when we say emotive brand is a brand that emotionally is making that connection between brand and person, or brand and human. It's the emotion that's deciding the decision making and behavior that you feel. Interestingly enough, in our research, over 95% of our decisions are made in our subconscious with emotion. We just don't realize it's information that's come from Harvard, and we're working with a professor at the University of Illinois. And so we've kind of doubled down on a space that we've always kind of lived in and is using our. Using empathy to understand who we're targeting and what our client partners need. But going a little bit further and digging into, you know, what, what does it mean? How can we take the subjectivity out of just defining what an emotion is for a brand? You know, we all get briefs where we have an emotional reason to believe that's designed, that's, you know, put together by the team of marketers. But we don't really know for certain whether that's, you know, whether that's actually correct or not. And it's always fuzzy, kind of as you move through the assignment, it falls off, falls off the ladder or falls off the areas of consideration. But if 95% of our purchase behaviors are made in our subconscious, it seemed like something we should be paying more attention to. So to differentiate ourselves, we've really pushed hard into kind of like where the agency began, but really focusing back on that energy of what emotion means and how that gets validated. And I think when we think about emotions, it's really talking about those powerful insights and proprietary ideas that can come from that. I think that also those emotions help actually validate why the creative is coming forward. It sounds a little bit fuzzy, but we're working with a research partner to come up with a process where we can quantitatively try to have individuals assign emotions to particular objects and then really understand if we're on track, so that when we present to the leadership team with some of our client partners, there is some validation to emotion. And then. Interesting. And then it would be, and then we're comparing quantitative choice results to where those emotions are at. And we're seeing some. We're seeing some traction there.
Eric Rutherford [4:16 - 4:41]: Wow, that's fascinating. 95% of our buying decisions, where it comes from, is emotion. And you're trying to quantify that emotion. Is this like, all kinds of emotion, or is this like the warm fuzzies? Or does it just depend on, like, the product? How does that. How does that work?
Jim Pietruszynski [4:41 - 5:44]: Great question. I think it's a, you know, typical human being can probably name five or six emotions off the top of their head, and there are core emotions we tend to. I don't know if you're familiar with Doctor Wilcox emotion wheel, but it spans, you know, hundreds of different emotions that, you know, are subcategorized under, you know, some main core, five or six emotions. We've identified. We're trying to identify eight to ten that are, you know, more often used and able to be defined by, you know, generally by human beings, because we don't, you know, we don't think that way. We feel and then respond, but we don't think about what emotion is in our, is in our, is in our decision making process unless we are, you know, really mindful. And I think that's really difficult to do when, in our day and age, when we think of mindfulness and marketing, I don't know that those often go hand in hand.
Eric Rutherford [5:45 - 6:05]: No, that tends not to have much overlap. But that's fascinating when you're talking about that motion wheel I've seen it. I've got a copy of it somewhere on my computer. I can totally visualize it. When you're looking at trying to identify maybe those eight to ten, are you talking about like the, on the very.
Jim Pietruszynski [6:05 - 6:08]: Outside of the wheel, more towards the.
Eric Rutherford [6:08 - 6:52]: Center, more towards the core. Okay. So that they can, you can really kind of latch on to those, whether it's excitement or happiness or sadness or any of those types of emotions. So what does that do? So from a brand perspective then, or a product perspective, are you helping them sort of shape their narrative in terms of what their brand will evoke in people? Or when people have an emotion, like, I don't know, let's say fear or sadness, like a brand will come to mind that will help sort of move them through that emotion to something different. Does that make sense?
Jim Pietruszynski [6:52 - 8:12]: Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both, because so you have the tension or the need that you're trying to solve, but then also understanding how the, if something, you know, if you're trying to evoke happiness, you know, you want happiness to be exuded with the brand and you want people to feel that happiness when they see it. We talk about it as inspiring brand affinity. So, like, I understand the brand affinity, it means something to me. And then that drives the purchase intent. When we, we've seen. So I've been in the business for 30 years and if you've been in marketing, you know, there's a lot of quantitative testing done that the results come back glowing and when it gets in the market, it doesn't, you know, things don't line up and vice versa, you know, where we've decided not to go down the quantitative path and, you know, do all the risk management but do a test market. And things have done incredibly well. So there's no exact science to figuring out what and how things will do once they're in their physical space or their home. I think that what understanding the emotion hopefully will bring us greater success, whether that's an innovation, brand revitalization or brand repositioning. For some of the brands we work.
Eric Rutherford [8:12 - 8:56]: With now, that makes sense. And I like that idea of trying to quantify very much that qualitative feel and aspect, but appreciating that there is that tension. So really what are, I mean, sometimes we think of brands and logos immediately pop into our head, right? There are certain brands you just boom and it's immediately in your mind. But I know brands have to be more than a logo, right? So what are a couple of foundation pieces for a brand to be a. I don't know, to be a brand, so to speak.
Jim Pietruszynski [8:56 - 9:58]: So we talk about the brand always being at the center and having a purpose, and from that radiates all the different touch points that the brand has to express itself in the world. So call it brand world. Not all of that do we touch, but we set up the standards and we set up the, you know, the vision and we set up, you know, where and how the brand should look and live in a, in a style guide. We've also incorporated a lot of cross functional agency partners that get. That get together, that manage. They might manage the digital aspect or they might manage the pr aspect of it, or the media getting all the work together and talking about the work so that it all feels consistent, you're going to feel a better experience for the brand rather than disjointed what I call marketing stunts that some brands do to get quick awareness, but those are short lived and they don't really hold if you're trying to create something that's iconic and lasting.
Eric Rutherford [9:59 - 10:37]: So. True. Yeah. The consistency across the spectrum is critical, whether it's, I mean, honestly, even down to the minutiae of a font and color and everything else, you can definitely tell when brands miss that or it's like when you're looking at something and it just, everything feels inconsistent. It feels unfinished, so to speak. You also talk about purpose in there. You mentioned purpose. So is this like, would you elaborate on what purpose is?
Jim Pietruszynski [10:38 - 11:14]: So the purpose is why we. Purpose is why the brand exists. So figuring out, you know, why does this brand exist? Is there really a need for it? The purpose has to fulfill some kind of need or develop some tension to be able to be interesting in the marketplace. I think that if it doesn't have a purpose, it's kind of missing a. A soul. So it's interesting how purpose and soul can kind of come together, but, you know, that should be able to be picked up on and understand and understood, you know, and not really have to be explained to people.
Eric Rutherford [11:16 - 11:47]: Gotcha. So it's, it's sort of that undercurrent that just, it is what the brand is. It's like what it, it does. Do you help then? I articulate that because I'm guessing with that purpose, there at least has to have, there, there's at least some documentation, some ideas of, okay, we want to make sure it fits X, Y, Z or Z or whatever it is. Does that change over time? Is that the same? How does that work?
Jim Pietruszynski [11:47 - 12:50]: It definitely can change over time. I think it always is good to revisit, to make sure that we're staying relevant. Things change quicker than ever now because of how fast innovation is moving things into different marketplaces. And you think about traditional brick and mortar shopping versus e commerce and CPG, and it's a different now. There are more digital assets that are needed more than just a pack on shelf and shopper marketing. There's another dimension that is formed with it. I think when we're part of, like the part of really pulling these things together is understanding what the human truths are with product truths and where those intersect. And that really helps drive that motivating behavior that we're looking for in decision making. So slot emotion then in there, and we have an extra layer of ways to look at things in a more, I wouldn't say more strategic, but with a different layer of information.
Eric Rutherford [12:53 - 13:05]: So that makes sense. How does something like culture sort of influence purpose, or is purpose outside of culture?
Jim Pietruszynski [13:06 - 14:57]: It's definitely part of culture. You know, we do still use, utilize the four c structure when we're doing analysis of brands and understanding how in culture where this brand fits. I think what's important to remember when we look at culture is not generalizing a culture or a stereotype to fit a brand. And you can't be everything to everybody. I think that with more and more brands being launched every year and some that leave, some that just disappear, you know, again, that relevancy of making sure that the culture we're going after, we're not creating stereotypes or using stereotypes, but really using empathy to understand what's going on in culture. You know, I used to say that we, I have an interest in anthropology and more on the cultural side. And, you know, the brands that we pick up and the brands we use are a reflection of what is happening in our culture today. If we wanted to look back and learn. So what we're doing is we're moving with, we're always moving with culture to define what it looks like at any given point. So you can look at clothing, you can look at products, you can look at all different types of electronics and see where those were, how those affected culture and where they fit and evolved to where we are today. We are always looking ahead and trying to predict ahead with innovation to see where things are going. It's exciting. It's exciting to think in that way and also lead where kind of be a trendsetter in terms of where, where and how things are going.
Eric Rutherford [15:00 - 15:18]: Just off the top of your head, do you know of any what's a brand or two that seems to be doing this well? I mean, it could be one that you're working with. It could be something totally different. What's one or two that are like, man, I think this business, this group is hitting it well.
Jim Pietruszynski [15:18 - 16:11]: Yeah. One, I think that's doing a great job is that we've seen some brand coalitions. So Coca cola owns topo Chico mineral water. I don't know if you're familiar with it. They now have come out with Topo chico that is spiked. So it's spiked. Sparkling water, ranch water. So they're using an authentic brand. Cokes names that on the package. They own the product, but they produce the product. And it, the combination between those, with those brands coming together with the knowledge and the distribution and the firepower that they have is super compelling. I loved Topo Chico when it was sparkling water, you know, but you can't find it anywhere. But it's really building some momentum and awareness for Topo Chico to exist in more occasions.
Eric Rutherford [16:12 - 16:37]: I like that it's where instead of coke, trying to make it a coke, you know, with, with a coke brand or, you know, under the Koch logo, so to speak, they're, it sounds like they're, they're using the best of the Koch infrastructure to really take Topo Chico and help it be the most it can be, so to speak.
Jim Pietruszynski [16:38 - 17:04]: Yes, and it is very, it's. We're very fortunate to be able to work with both sets of marketing teams. So you get the insights from both sets of the marketing team, the dynamic of how they work together. And I guess we're sort of in the middle of, like, producing what ultimately, you know, drives the product. So. But again, like, feeling privileged to have the ability to be able to be. To be at the table.
Eric Rutherford [17:05 - 17:26]: I love that. Just being able to get that perspective and see what both sides are doing, having the benefit of a very, I say, niche brand. But, you know, you kind of use that a little bit versus, like, coke, which is like this, and it's a goliath. It's huge. And seeing that difference, I'm sure is fascinating.
Jim Pietruszynski [17:26 - 17:27]: Yes, yes.
Eric Rutherford [17:28 - 18:00]: So you talk about, you know, you talk about the idea of emotive brands. You talk about having purpose in the brand, but what about people? So, like, does it matter? The people that you have within, like, the brand marketing and the brand itself as you're producing that, can you just drop anybody in there, or does it, does it. Are you looking for some specific strategic people to be involved in order to make that happen?
Jim Pietruszynski [18:00 - 19:57]: I think in our business, it's not very transactional. So that our people, our creatives, our strategists, they're our product. Their creative intelligence is our product. So you can't really drop in. Someone who might be a great designer might have great style on their own, really. We look for people that can be very diverse in the way that they think, in the way that they execute, and also be able to translate strategy, like build strategy, but also translate it to design. So understanding how that strategy flow moves from words to visualization and then activation. So, yeah, it is a. Not everyone has the right, like, the ability, especially in the creative world, to be able to use that. But I call the middle brain. Like, you're using a little bit of the right and your left brain produce something. I started out as a designer in this business, so, you know, I can understand the creative end of it. And, you know, we built. I built our strategy team, our account team, you know, worked. Worked very many in very many different roles of the agency because we started with three people, and we're about 80 now, so had to grow up, you know, just kind of learning on the fly. But, yeah, under, once you understand, you know, the quality of work is good, but then how do you talk about it? How do you. How do you. How can you explain why you chose a color, a font, an image, or. Or a structure? You know, like, those are the. The why is super important to us, and I don't think it's something you can teach. I think it's something that you inherently. You inherently learn and then can build upon.
Eric Rutherford [19:59 - 20:49]: That's an excellent point. Yeah. There's. From me as a marketer, I am not a visual designer. So from that creative aspect of, like, I am a wordsmith. So I do writing, and I do various sort of content pieces for that. So I appreciate, I get lost when I think of color. Like, I am so lost. But that hasn't been part of my, you know, part of my work palette. It hasn't been something that I've been involved with. So you're really looking for people not only who can deal with design, but they can deal with the why behind it, and then they can also speak to it and then bring that together then with. With content as well to make it. To make it unified.
Jim Pietruszynski [20:49 - 20:50]: Exactly. Exactly.
Eric Rutherford [20:51 - 21:12]: I love it. So let me. Let me ask one more thing before we kind of wrap up any takeaway. So people listening to this, wherever they're at in the marketing sphere, if they're thinking about what, man, I like this idea of a motive. I like this idea of purpose. Maybe I'm not really doing it. Any takeaways you would like to leave them with?
Jim Pietruszynski [21:13 - 22:00]: You know, I think one thing that we have to consider as things move faster and faster is to be successful in brand marketing. It's a marathon, it's not a sprint. Like, it takes time to get established. And when we look at, when we work with some of our partners, they want quick growth. You know, they want their shareholders to understand that things are moving. The market's really volatile. It's very competitive and even on our end when we're competing for work. So, you know, I think there's a lot of other factors that go into that, and it requires a lot of patience. But the part of the brand, you know, the brand design part of it or the marketing side of it is you gotta have the passion and you gotta have the grit to like, get in there and get it done.
Eric Rutherford [22:01 - 22:44]: That's the grit to get it done. I like how you say that. Describe that, because I think sometimes we don't have consider that in the marketing realm. We think very, very much what's created, but not the fact that it is this long journey to really make it happen. And you have to stick to it. Otherwise you just don't last and products and companies don't grow up. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that, Jim. So for everybody who is listening, Jim, where if people want to know more about you, they want to know more about solosite, where do you want them to go?
Jim Pietruszynski [22:44 - 23:09]: Our, our website is soulsight.com, so ulsight, one word, no space. And or you can email at info, I'm sorry, infoessite.com and you can find me on LinkedIn by searching my first and last name, Jim Petrzynski. I think I might be one of these besides family, that have that last name in all of LinkedIn.
Eric Rutherford [23:11 - 23:58]: For everybody listening, we'll drop all those links in the show notes. Definitely reach out to Jim, check out Soulsite, and really get on board with what they're doing. From a brand perspective, just if 95% of our buying decisions are really based, are more emotion driven than anything else, like man, that changes the spectrum. Because I know for me, I always think logic has something to do with it. And yet when I look at my buying decisions, I'm like, that's not always the case. So I would encourage everybody to reach out and connect with Jim. This has been fun. I have learned a ton from you. I'm looking forward to going back through it and checking my notes and reviewing. Thanks for joining me today.
Jim Pietruszynski [23:58 - 24:00]: Thanks, Eric. I appreciate it and appreciate the time with.