Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Donna Martin:Welcome back to the debrief podcast with pastor Matthew Stephen Brown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How you doing? Good. Are back in black.
Donna Martin:We are back in black,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:and it's gonna be awesome. CDC? Yeah. Do you know Not that good. What country they're from?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. Do you know ACDC? Yeah. Australia. Really?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Australian rock band. I I My whole life, I thought they Yeah. Were American
Donna Martin:I would have guessed America until you said, guess what country they're from.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So here's funny fact about me, I can't watch a movie, listen to music without Wikipedia ing them. Googling? I literally goo I just, my wife said, get off your phone. I'm like, wanna know who this actor is, where they came from, what they did, why they wrote Like, I love the history behind everything. That's crazy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Yeah. Yeah. So do you have a favorite band?
Donna Martin:No. Probably not.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:Let me think. That's an on the spot question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I know. I should've I should've your favorite band? Depends on the decade, but Love that. So I love I love Stevie Nicks, so do you know what band she's from?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No.
Donna Martin:No? I don't remember.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh my gosh. So you guys have to Google that.
Donna Martin:He's all We That's awesome.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. So for anybody out there who's discouraged about your career, but Stevie Nicks, the band that she was in that you have to Google, they were not successful until her thirteenth album. Wow. Yeah. Rumors is their first successful album.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. So, yeah. So it always just encourages me that the Lord's not done with me yet.
Donna Martin:That's I know
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:a lot of people think success is instantaneous.
Donna Martin:But usually when it is? Yes. Oh, yeah yeah yeah. I think I did know that. But when success is instantaneous, then usually it's like
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. Doesn't last,
Donna Martin:so Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Gandhi in his 10 sins said that, I think it's number six or seven, is uninherited or unearned wealth. Yeah. Literally destroys somebody.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely. So I mean, we see that with the lotto when people win and it's like my lotto story on Lifetime and it's never good. Alright. So here we go.
Donna Martin:Alright. Our first question is Annie Moss from Riverside. I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:love Annie.
Donna Martin:Hi, Annie. Okay. It says, how can I have an influence in my new stepchildren's lives? Ten, eleven, 13, while respecting both parents, my husband and his ex wife. There's a lot of hurt and drama still between my husband and his ex, and I really care for these kids that are with us part time, but both parents speak badly about each other to me.
Donna Martin:I try to just listen and not get overly involved, but any guidance on such a messy situation would be greatly appreciated. And Annie Moss is new to sandals, and so Yes. We're so glad you're here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah Annie, I would just say that, you know, divorce is a sin for a reason.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's because ending the relationship doesn't fix the relationship, and especially when there's kids involved. And so if you couldn't make it work when you were married, making love, living life together, it's even harder to make it work you're in separate homes, sharing kids, you know, paying alimony, all of those things that, you know, very rarely does the wife feel like it's enough support, very rarely, you know, does the husband not think it's excessive. And so, you know, sometimes nowadays though it's the woman more and more where she's paying the alimony because so many many women now make more money than their husbands. But what I would say first is, you know, just say, man, thank you so much for sharing your heart. I just love these kids and I'm wondering who's on their side.
Donna Martin:Yeah. That's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And would just sit in that because kids can't divorce themselves from their parents, and what you're really saying is where they came from was worthless. So your husband, you know, your dad, your mom's a terrible person, and I think that that's really awful. And what I would just really encourage is say, I really love these kids, and what I'm hoping for them is you guys will make peace. Yeah. And and by the way, you don't have to agree to make peace, you know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. That's okay. And so peace is just right, it's the end of hostility. And so there can be some things that were said on both sides and perspectives and really what I would say is both partners are who are divorced are still trying to win the battle that's already been lost. Like, divorce means everybody lost.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. That's what it means. And so I would just say, you know, it's important a, that you never speak badly about their mother, that you encourage the husband to speak better because, and I would appeal to him, you're better than this. What I love about you is better than this. What what drew me to you is and this and then appeal to his better side so you're not nagging, you're not putting him down, you don't wanna become another ex wife that's, you know what you should do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Because you know, that tends to be the trap that women fall into is they become the referee and this is what I tell my wife all the time. You know who hates the ref? Both teams. Like, nobody likes the ref.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you don't believe me, watch the Dodger game last night, was horrible, the pitching, oh my gosh. So, not the pitching, but the umpire, the called balls and strikes, I was like, this is really bad. And so don't become the ref and just, you know, try to find a way to connect with the kids because they wanna get out of there, they don't like that, it's awful for them, it's a terrible way to grow up and really what it's doing is it's framing, you know, the way how they handle conflict and so Yeah. When a husband and wife divorce, what it says is families families can end, which is very unsettling to children, right? So the family should be a very very safe place.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what you're what you don't realize as parents is you're training your kids how to have conflict. Mhmm. And it's really really important. And I remember one time my wife and I got in a fight and I said, I said, can you repeat back to me what I just said? And she did, and our son, unfortunately for him, he's like 15 standing there and I said, is that what you heard me say to your mom?
Donna Martin:Mhmm. Mhmm. And he
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:was like, no, dad, that's not what you said. Mhmm. And I just told Tammy, I said, would never say that to you. Mhmm. Now that may have been what you heard, that may have been what what you felt, that's not what I said.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Because I would never speak to you that way in front of our kids. I, you know, I I I've sinned and lost my mind. My my I got a good friend of mine that says nothing can make a man crazier faster than his wife, so. So I've lost Thanks, best man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Sorry. I've lost my mind. Well, this that would be true for wives. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Your husbands Of because when you're with somebody all the time, you forget you forget the things that drew you, and then you're annoyed by the little things that everybody has. Everybody has little things that they do that annoy them and you know, this is how marriages fail. We focus on the 10 to 15% That's that we don't like and we forget the 75 or 80% that we absolutely love. Right. And we just hone in that and you wanna end your marriage, focus in on that 15% and try to change that person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Let me tell you something. Man, God doesn't change people, He invites them to change. And you need to That's what I would say to every spouse, you are not your spouse's Holy Spirit.
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now, if there's sin, Right. That's different than annoyance or personality quirks or traits, and so it's just allowing each other. But I would just say, honey, here's what I love about you, so start off with a compliment, and I would really love your kids to see that side of you when you talk about their mom. Yeah. You know, and then with the mom, I would say, here's what the kids say they love about you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would really love to see that in you in this situation. Because here's the fear is, the mom is gonna be worried that they love you more Yeah. That you're better and just really state, hey, I'm not here to replace you. You're their mother and they love you. And what they love about you is this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What I would love to see is that trait, I would love them to see that more in how you talk about my husband. I know he's not perfect. No one is. Right. And I'm not saying he did right by you, but I'm asking you to be right by these kids that we both love and you're their mother.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm not. Yeah. But I I don't ever want them to feel bad about you or hear bad things about you, I feel the same way about their dad. Yeah. So we can't bond on being against, you know, both unfortunately, you both shared a husband, you know, our husband, your ex, my current, we need to bond on being for these kids that we share.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You're the mom, I'm not taking that role, I'm the stepmom, and it's just really important to affirm that, you know, biology matters and affirm that just say, hey, don't ever want to replace you, but I I do wanna compliment you and here's what the kids say that they love about you. And I would ask the kids, what do you love about your mom? And just say that, hey, the other day I was asking the kids, you know, what's something that they love about you that maybe I don't know? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's what they said. Boom. I want them to experience that in how you relate to your your ex and I know he can be frustrating.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know he's not perfect. But hey, if we all work together, we can make this better. So always appeal to someone's better side rather than their negative and, you know, it's why I was listening to is it Bill Barr or Bill Maher? Who has the HBO show? Mar.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mar? So Bill Barr is the white comedian married to the black lady. Bird. Bird. Bill Barr.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Man, you guys have dyslexia. So Bill Barr was talking about Kamala Harris and and why she's dropping in the polls. And what he said is, we know what you're against.
Donna Martin:Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No one knows what you're for.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and and this is what's wrong in politics in general. What are you for? And so let her know, I'm for you. I'm for these kids. And then appeal to her better nature.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You I don't know if you guys are tired of the political it's just like, gosh, is everyone running the devil? I mean, it's like back and forth back and forth. And I'm not talking about the presidential election, I mean, I'm talking about local elections. It's just
Donna Martin:It's crazy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't even know I don't know what party they are. I don't know what they're for. I don't know what they're gonna do. I just know this other person is Satan and he happened to run for congress. I'm just like, oh my gosh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so with divorce, we can get into that. Yeah. My ex is evil. Well, there was something you liked about her. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because you married
Donna Martin:her. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, there's something you liked about him because you had three kids with him. Right. So let's appeal to that and so appeal to people's the the best part of their nature and I think that's the best advice for relationships. You wanna ruin relationships, be critical Yeah. Get bitter, and get upset, and and you're in a tough spot.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I'll be praying for you, Annie Moss. Yeah. Absolutely. Divorce is ugly, and now, you know, even though you're not divorced, you just Right. Are inheriting that mess.
Donna Martin:Awesome. You so much. That was great. Okay. This is Dan from Dublin, Ireland.
Donna Martin:Yes. Thank you, Dan.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know the fastest growing city in the world? Dublin? Dublin. Doubles every day. It's Dublin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's terrible.
Donna Martin:That was bad. But it was good. Okay. So You laughed? I did.
Donna Martin:It's Dublin. It's okay. But, you know, there's Dublin, California I went this year earlier. It's right outside San Francisco. Oh.
Donna Martin:It's actually very nice.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I went
Donna Martin:to a conference there. So that's Dublin too. Alright. Is birth control a sin? Woah.
Donna Martin:I have been praying and wrestling with the idea of getting a vasectomy. My wife and I are in our thirties and have two beautiful children. Additionally, her doctor recommended we use birth control going forward to eliminate the risk of pregnancy complications, especially as we get older. I'm not afraid of the procedure itself. However, I do find myself asking God if it is what God would want since I'm altering my body from how he originally created me.
Donna Martin:On the other hand, I wanna meet my wife's needs, and as her husband, I feel it should be my responsibility as the head of the marriage to address this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Great question. Question. It's just so awesome we have people from Ireland that
Donna Martin:I know. This is awesome.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Ireland is predominantly Catholic country, would say 95 to 98% Catholic, so you need to understand that the Pope has clearly stated that any type of birth control is Right. So no birth control, no condoms, I don't know what I'm just going to call it the pull out method, of Not that. So what Catholics teach, it's called the rhythm method. So basically what you do is you calculate and there's like three days where a woman is really likely to be pregnant.
Donna Martin:For Uh-huh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, so and again, I'm not a gynecologist, you know, I don't understand I mean, have my two daughters and my wife, I'm still totally confused by the whole menstrual cycle thing, but So the idea is that there's only a couple days which you can be pregnant. The problem with that is that semen can live inside a woman's vaginal tract, body, whatever, for up to seven to eight days.
Donna Martin:Oh, wow. I thought it was like seventy two hours.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, no, it's like a week. Those suckers are resilient. Just hanging
Donna Martin:on. Put it on.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, hold on and not wait for an egg. So so that's the problem with that method.
Donna Martin:And that women's cycles can vary from month to month based on her weight or anything, Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so I think the Catholic church has been extraordinarily unfair and here's why I don't like their stance. What the pope has repeatedly said, and you're in a different situation, Dan, in Ireland. Ireland is a western country, very wealthy country, you're not The UK, but you're really close.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Ireland has experienced a economic revival that's really better than Europe the last ten to fifteen years. Here's why I don't like the Catholic position. They require millions of Hispanic poor women who have to get married at 14, 15, 16. They are indebted to a life of poverty because they've been told they can't do birth control. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it makes me very very sad, and I just don't appreciate the hypocrisy from a pope who doesn't have to manage a family, who lives like a billionaire in a castle in Italy. Yeah. To tell poor people to trust God. It just really, really bothers me for that perspective. So understand that there are evangelicals and Protestants who will disagree with what I'm saying.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There are Protestants that believe You just like the Duger family, right? You just continue to make babies, and they go back to Genesis chapter one, the command to be fruitful and multiply. And again, Christ has fulfilled that. The Apostle Paul makes it very clear that he wishes that all Christians were single as he is. So under the gospel, I no longer have to be married Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:To fulfill God's will. I no longer have to have children to fulfill God's will. And so it is acceptable if I choose to be married to manage my household in such a way that allows me to serve God. I don't believe that the Dougars can can serve God with 22 children, and that's what you find out. You know, you got you got a son that's sexually touching several of your kids, I don't mean to put them down, I'm just saying, when you have that many kids, it is impossible to parent.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we don't need to do that nowadays because there are steps that you can do. So what can you do, Dan? I know men don't want to hear this, but you can wear a condom. Okay? It does take away the sensation, but if your intent is to love your wife, there are other things besides altering your body if you are convinced that the Holy Spirit is saying not to do that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I think really what it comes down to is to say there's freedom Yes. But you should not violate your conscience. So if you are opposed, and that's what Paul says, if someone believes something is wrong, then they should not do it. Now they cannot compel others to do as they do, which is the whole problem with many conservative views of Christianity. It's like what the law, you know, like growing up, drinking was evil.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, that's not in the Bible, but it was the conviction of Southern Baptists who were poor and a lot of people lost their livelihood, like we didn't drink, we didn't gamble. We didn't play cards. Right. Because all of those things happen in a saloon and bad things happen in a saloon. So they threw the baby out with the bathwater.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we gotta be careful. So you can can can wear a condom, you can do birth control. Now, here's the problem with birth control is it affects many women emotionally, psychologically, it creates all kinds of problems and not all women respond well. Yeah, I went crazy. Yeah, okay, thank you for that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That happens and so that's just not something that's doable. So I think in that, if you're saying, okay, we're done with our family, you know, we've had as many kids as we feel like we can care for and take care of to serve God and serve each other, then I think that's something that you could ask the Holy Spirit. You know, another method is, and I don't mean to be gross, but it's the pull out method, and here's why the Catholic church is against that. It's a guy in the Old Testament, his name is Onan, and if you really want to be weirded out, this is just one of those weird stories where it's important to understand things in its cultural context.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Onan's brothers dies.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And again, Onan is forced, compelled by God and their understanding to marry his brother's wife.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he does this and he has sex with her, but when he really just climaxed, he pulls out and as the Bible says, spills his seed.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So from that text, the understanding is that to pull out is wrong. That is not the sin of Onan. The sin of Onan is the reason he's to marry his brother's wife is social security in that day and age was children and he was to impregnate his brother's wife in order that she would be taken care of in her old age. So he had the fun part, he was not doing the part that was essential in that culture to protect her. So that was the sin that I think a lot of people misinterpret as that's that method.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, we can talk about all these things and I think each couple should pray about that and work through this, but understand it's not easy and I don't think you should just keep having children because, you know, my wife and I, three was our limit, you know, that we could juggle and I really felt like I thought we were done at two. My wife's like, want one more. She's really pretty, so I said, okay. Well, let's have three,
Donna Martin:and I'm
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:grateful for my son, but in ministry, I feel like the family is my second church Mhmm. And I've watched ministers have more kids than they should and they're not as good pastors as they should be
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because their families demand so much time. Mhmm. I've seen this with missionaries.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, missionaries. Oh, we have 10 kids, I'm like, then you should not be a missionary because you just don't have any time
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:To minister to the family of God. And it's why the Catholic churches said, you won't be married. The nuns are married to the church and the priest is married to God, and I think there's nobility in that, but when you force that, it creates all kinds of weird things where you're not honest about your sexual drive and sexuality and So stuff like Dan, I would just say, pray about it and and just say, Lord, I need you to be really clear on what I'm doing, but just know there are options here. Do I think you are sinning if you chose to do this? I would say no if it's to support your wife and take care of your family.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think it's a noble cause, but understand, Dan, there are pastors who love God, believe in Jesus, preach the word, who will adamantly be opposed to what I just said.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what we say at Sandals is there's closed hand issues, so what is that? The Bible's the word of God, Jesus is the only way to God, you know, the only way a person can be saved is through Jesus. Those are closed. Then there are open hand issues where we have deep rooted opinions, things that we are convinced of, but we cannot force, and that's what I believe the Catholic church has done in this issue is it's an open handed issue that they have forced millions, particularly of poor Hispanics, poor Filipinos in countries where women cannot feed themselves, and often to bring a new child into the family is to mean a child in the family starves. I mean, look, that's what we're talking about here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so it's just I think it's immoral to say God will provide. It's just you're not in that situation. So Dan, I would say, Lord, what do you want me to do in this instance? I think if you're sacrificing yourself to serve your wife, I think that's an acceptable thing. I'm not God there's not a bible verse here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We have to, you know, try to, you know, make the best decisions we can, it's like fertility, so you know, what do you do when you take a sperm and put it in an egg and you have a child there and like you're done with your family planning, like technology creates problems that the bible does not address. So we have to do the best we can to say, Lord, I don't wanna sin against you, I wanna honor you, but I feel like this is the best thing for my family
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and make that decision. So ultimately down, there isn't an answer. That's why we have the Holy Spirit within us to guide us Mhmm. But I understand why you're asking this question because Ireland is so Catholic and I will say this, in Western countries we're not having enough children. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's a huge problem. In impoverished countries, they're having too many. So it's really this weird thing. Yeah. You know, I think you and like, how many kids do have?
Donna Martin:We have three.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You have three. So couples have to create 2.4 children just to keep up with the death rate. Let me translate that. One So day, there's gonna be a bunch of old people and no young people to take care Yeah. Of
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I I I think I knew that about the I wanted to get my tubes tied after I had my third, and I was supposed to be at Saint Bernardine's, and they were like, nope, we're not tying your tubes. You gotta go over to community hospital. And I was like, what?
Donna Martin:So, yeah. It yeah. That was interesting. I did not pick that up from Ireland, but that was a good answer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:Thank
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you. Yeah. Thank you.
Donna Martin:Awesome. Okay. We have another Annie Moss.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. She is
Donna Martin:She is everywhere, and she lives in every city, which is even amaze okay. So she's from Highland, California, and she says, I've been having relationship issues with the father of my two children for five years. We were engaged once, but marriage is no longer in the picture for him. My family tells me to keep serving him as my husband, in quotes, since we have a family together and to keep praying God will change him, but what if this isn't what God wants from me? What if this is a consequence of our sin?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Well, what I would say is, of course, it's a con consequence of sin because when we have sex before marriage, oftentimes it creates children, and so what we've decided physically, so there's physical union, there hasn't been emotional and spiritual union. And so that creates a choice, and oftentimes women don't understand this, they will have sex with a man and it means something very differently for them. Yeah. I don't know, have you seen all this latest research that when a woman has sex with a man, his DNA is a part of her forever?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Like, so there's
Donna Martin:And it imprints in like her brain?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. It imprints in her brain and and it affects future children. I mean, it's a real it's a real issue. So God designed a woman to be, you know, with one man. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now unfortunately, in your situation, that may not be possible because men will proliferate and have sex with many women. I'm not saying it's right. Right. I'm just saying that is how a man is designed and and not designed, but created, and so that's the natural order of things, that's why we need to surrender to the spiritual order of things where God teaches us how to control ourselves and live like not just an animal, but like an angel. So we have our earthly side and we have our heavenly side, and so I would just say, I would really pray through this and and there may need to be a season of loneliness, but ultimately what's best for you and the kids is that God changes his heart and is that he comes back and fathers the children that he's created.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I've seen so many people not wait, give up
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then regret.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So five years seems like a long time, but you never know what God is gonna do. Yeah. So whether he's your husband or not, you should be praying for him for the rest of your life because he is the father of your children and they need a dad that honors God. And so I would be grateful that you have a family that's encouraging you to pray for him. Now, he's not your husband, that's where I would disagree.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is the father of your children, so that's not a choice, being your husband is a choice. So he has made the choice not to honor you in that way, but I would say, here's where I would encourage you, Annie, instead of praying for God to change him, I would say, God, is there some things about me that you need to change? How have I become bitter, angry, upset? How have have I maybe changed in such a way that, you know, God really what this separation, this angst, this struggle is in me, not to judge me, but to bring something out in me. So Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So there's a difference between consequence and judgment. There are consequences for sin and that God is not involved in that. So if I jump off a building and gravity is real, the consequence of that is me hitting the ground very hard. Mhmm. That's a con it's not God's judgment, it's just a consequence of the decision I've made.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Judgment is God, like Jonah, bringing something into my life because of my sin. And and a lot of people, we read in the stories of the Bible, well, God does things to certain characters. So like for example, God takes David's son with Bathsheba. Mhmm. Oh my gosh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what I would ask you is, are you the king of Israel? Right. So the greater the authority
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The greater the position, the greater the judgment of God.
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, and so you gotta understand that. God does things to David that he would not do to you or me because you're not David. I mean, I have position, I have power, I'm not the king.
Donna Martin:Right. You
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know? I don't just get, look at that naked lady, bring her here.
Donna Martin:Right. David
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:got to do that, and there is judgment for that. Mhmm. And on top of that, kills the husband to cover his sin. Mhmm. It's not just adultery, it's Murder.
Donna Martin:Murder. All the things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So so what I would say is there are consequences and I would just say, Lord, I have regret. Please forgive me for this, and then please teach me whatever you want to teach me in my disappointment, in my hurt, in my pain, because ultimately, bringing you two together, the change may start with you. And for every couple listening who wants their marriage to change, if you fully surrender to God, you've just improved 50% of the relationship. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't know about you guys, but 50% improvement It's huge. Is a huge improvement and just say, God, please change me and please help me to be better in this, and so don't just pray change him, pray change us.
Donna Martin:I have a I have a secondary, maybe I'm reading into this, but I'm like, are they living together? Like, because for the family to say to serve it doesn't say that they're not together.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Because
Donna Martin:you're saying, what if this isn't what God wants for me? And I'm like, well, no. That isn't what God wants. Right? So I'm not really sure to keep serving him as my husband since we have a family together.
Donna Martin:Yeah, that's a lot.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you're living together, you know, and cohabitating, you know, I mean, that's that's a whole another thing, so I'm sorry if I missed that.
Donna Martin:I'm not sure if
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it is. My assumption here is you guys are living separate lives, you've raised your kids, he's out of the picture now because she said
Donna Martin:I've been having relationship issues.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, marriage is no longer in the picture for him.
Donna Martin:For him. But it doesn't mean they're
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't I know.
Donna Martin:Yeah. I'm make I'm I could be reading into your question, Addie Moss, I'm sorry. But,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I would just say, you know, it's one thing to keep living together, and and so here's the other problem, you know, we had just had a big wedding on did you know we did '24 Yes, not. And a lot of my pastor friends have a problem with that, and we're just in such a different day and age.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. You know, like like if I if I go to Africa and I'm a missionary and some dude has 10 wives, and he gives his life to Christ, I don't encourage him to divorce nine. Yeah. So I ask God to transition and change him where he is. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so the problem is in the church, people come to us, they're cohabitating, they're living in sin, some of them are in gay relationships.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so here, what I do is I meet them where they are, and I just say, as you grow in Christ
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's going to want to change some things relationally for you.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I accept people where they are, I preach I preach the word of God, I challenge them with the word of God, and just know as you do this, you know, if you're a couple living together, the Lord is going to want you to at some time get married. Yeah. If you're a gay couple and you're together, the Lord is going to want you to live as brothers and sisters.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, brothers and brothers or or sis guess Right. Brothers or Because that's what he wants in your life. Mhmm. To say no to that is to say no to moving forward with Jesus. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But we gotta love people where they are and encourage that, and I just want everyone to know that's why we do the mass wedding.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, can't tell you, I I did two dances with a bride and a groom, and they're holding their baby. Yeah. And there's no shame, there's no guilt. Absolutely. And I gotta tell you, I was so proud of our church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Our church paid for those weddings. Mhmm. Our church paid for the rehearsal, the dance, the DJ, the food, and what a testimony to community. Yeah, absolutely. And these people are far from God, their families are far from God, but it was it was one of the coolest things
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We've ever done. And I've had this massage therapist in my life for ten years and when I first met her, she was a single mom, she had a four year old and she got married.
Donna Martin:Aw, I have that's so
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:tears in my eyes. Aw. And that daughter's 14 now. Wow. So for ten years, and you know what, her her groom, he came up to me and he said, thank you for not giving up on us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. Thank you for believing us. Mhmm. And he said, thank you for doing this for that. And I I told her, I said, couldn't even look at you in the wedding ceremony because she didn't tell me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I saw her there in her dress and God is so pleased and God is so happy
Donna Martin:That's awesome.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And God is so happy when we're obedient. Yeah, absolutely. You know, no matter how long it takes us to get there, and again back to Jonah, Jonah ends and we don't know if he's obedient. Yeah. Like it it you know, it just ends with a And so you know, I just so want our church to be a church that reaches lost people and I've never heard of a church doing what we did.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I am so proud of us that we did that. And you know, was, call sin sin, man I did. Right. But again, when you appeal to who people are in Christ, they respond to that rather than what I grew up with is feel like crap, feel terrible, know, go jump off a bridge.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, that's how that's how Southern Baptist preaching was, and
Donna Martin:Not jump off a bridge. People
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus was never harsh with sinners.
Donna Martin:Right. Never. Only religious leaders.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Only religious leaders. And so many people have missed that, you know, he was inviting I I was just reading, you know, the Canaanite woman that came to Jesus in Matthew and he said I've only come to the house of Israel, and she says, but even the dogs eat scraps that are thrown from the table.
Donna Martin:And
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:he turns to her and he says, wow, such incredible And he heals her daughter, and then you know the very next thing is the feeding of the 4,000? Mhmm. Which are Gentiles. Yeah. Like it's literally, man, God moving and transitioning and his heart turning not just to the Jews, but to those of us who are not Jewish, and it was just so beautiful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I love that.
Donna Martin:So Annie,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:be praying for you. Thank
Donna Martin:you Absolutely. For your Thank you so much.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:God bless you.
Donna Martin:That was great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Thanks.
Donna Martin:Thanks for listening everyone. If you like this podcast, please let us know by following and subscribing, leaving a comment. We would love to hear your questions. And if you really love us and you wanna support this, please go to sandalschurch.com/support, and we will see you next time. Bye.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you'd like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
Scott Schutte:If you enjoy this podcast, please like, comment, and subscribe. Thanks for being a debrief listener.