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We all struggle in seasons of busyness to maintain our quiet time rhythms with God. Craig Denison and Josh Miller from First15 join Stephen this week for a discussion on why incorporating a daily quiet time is so crucial for our walk with Jesus and some practicals on how to start building consistency in this discipline.
Creators and Guests
What is You Can Mentor: A Christian Youth Mentoring Podcast?
You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community. We want to see Christian mentors thrive.
We want to hear from you! Send any mentoring questions to hello@youcanmentor.com, and we'll answer them on our podcast. We want to help you become the best possible mentor you can be. Also, if you are a mentoring organization, church, or non-profit, connect with us to join our mentoring network or to be spotlighted on our show.
Please find out more at www.youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You will find more resources on our website to help equip and encourage mentors. We have downloadable resources, cohort opportunities, and an opportunity to build relationships with other Christian mentoring leaders.
You can mentor is a podcast about the power of building relationships with kids from hard places in the name of Jesus. Every episode will help you overcome common mentoring obstacles and give you the confidence you need to invest in the lives of others. You can mentor.
Speaker 2:What's up mentor and mentoring leaders? I want to share with you guys some exciting information we got. You Can Mentor has released a book. It's entitled You Can Mentor, How to Impact Your Community, Fulfill the Great Commission, and Break Generational Curses. The purpose behind this book is to train up more mentors and more mentoring leaders to effectively disciple the next generation through mentoring.
Speaker 2:If you will, please go purchase a book on our website. You can find it on Amazon. If you go to Amazon, leave a 5 star review. That helps us out a ton. If you're a mentoring organization and you want multiple copies, holler at us and we will give you guys a deal.
Speaker 2:You can find out more information on the You Can Mentor website. Go pick up that book, You Can Mentor.
Speaker 3:As mentors and really just as people, we need a right understanding of our need for God. My friends, Craig Dennison and Josh Miller are on the podcast today. They lead first 15, a daily devotional guiding over a 1000000 people into a fresh experience with God's presence every day. I think first 15 is a great resource that will help mentors establish a more tangible, meaningful connection with God. So that's why I have them on the podcast today.
Speaker 3:If you enjoy today's episode, please just share it with someone you know. Thanks for listening. Welcome back to the You Can Mentor podcast. My name is Stephen Murray, and I have 2 special guests, close friends, Josh Miller and Craig Dennison from First 15. How the heck are you guys?
Speaker 4:Doing great. Stephen, thanks for having us, man. We, like, had you on our podcast multiple times now. All of which was just to get on your podcast. So thanks for, like, finally catching the hint after the last one.
Speaker 3:This has
Speaker 5:all been the long game for us just trying to get here. So we finally arrived. We've arrived.
Speaker 3:Hey. Started from the bottom. Now you're ranked 218 in Trinidad and Tobago in the in the religious Christianity genre. So moving up in the world.
Speaker 4:No. Good. You know how, like, YouTube gives people plaques when they get, like, certain levels of, can I get a plaque for being 218 in Trinidad and Tobago? That's the plaque I want.
Speaker 3:Yes. I honestly don't even know if that's 2 countries or just 1. Like, It's kinda I don't know. We'll find out.
Speaker 5:I don't know either, actually.
Speaker 3:That's probably their subject.
Speaker 4:Daddy, we're so sorry for not knowing your your geography and your, societal history. Please
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh. That's right. They're listening. Hey. Thank you so much for for listening to the podcast.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. You can mentor. Well, let me let me share real quick how I know these guys. They run an organization called First 15, which is all about I I mean, our our our our kind of tagline is you can mentor. Their tagline is you can experience God.
Speaker 3:That's a lot cooler than mine, I'll have to say. So tell Craig, can you tell us a little bit about First 15? Give people an overview of what you guys Yeah.
Speaker 4:Sure thing. Yeah. So spending time with God, has radically transformed every part of my life. I found that rhythm at a low point in college when I prayed, I think, one of my first authentic prayers. I prayed, god, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 4:I know you know what to do. Tell me what to do, and I'll do it. And in that moment, I think I was really listening for the first time, maybe, and really wanting God to say something in response. And God doesn't often talk to me this way, like, directly like this, but in that moment, I genuinely heard him say to my heart, it just needs to be me and you for a while. And then he was pulling me out of finding affirmation and affection in others and seeking to find my purpose and affirmation and affection in him.
Speaker 4:And that rhythm of worshiping and reading and praying is just what I went and did after that one evening where I, like, heard that from him. Changed everything for me, genuinely. And it's carried me through so many different life transformations and seasons, and I definitely like, I was telling the team that's even asked, like, the author of this daily devotional. We're helping a lot of people spend time with God now. Like, I struggle to get that time every morning.
Speaker 4:So I always say, like, what we do, I really want it to not come from a place of obligation. Like, believers, I think, have this sense of, like, I know I should read the bible, and I know I should pray, and I know I should get time to the Lord of God. And it's all these shoulds. And what I see it as and what I hope we do as a ministry is it's helping people say yes to this invitation. It's not an obligation.
Speaker 4:It's an invitation. God wants to meet with us. And whether, you know, with my 2 year old, it's like I'm just thrilled when he climbs into my lap for 5 minutes, even if it's been weeks and he's just busy busy busy, like running around the house when he just wants me for 5 minutes. Like, I'm not mad for the 2 weeks he didn't. I'm not mad when he wants to hop off 5 minutes later.
Speaker 4:I just cherish those minutes I have, and I think that's the way God is with us. And so we, at First Aidan, try to help people say yes to that invitation by creating these daily devotionals on platforms people already use, and devices they already use, and making it donor funded, so there's not that barrier of cost. And now we help, like, over a 1000000 people spend meaningful time on Lord God and worship worship and reading prayer, which is insane and terrifying.
Speaker 3:That is insane. I mean and if you multiply that by 15 minutes, that's 15 1000000 minutes 90 of people's lives that that you've taken from them.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Hopefully, it's not that. A
Speaker 5:little vicious.
Speaker 3:And Josh Josh, you you're a former worship pastor. Craig was a former worship pastor. And I don't know if if worship pastors if you say former or you're just you're always a worship pastor, once a worship pastor, always a worship pastor. Is that some is that a thing?
Speaker 4:I don't know.
Speaker 5:Feel like you're hitting on my midlife crisis of trying to define myself these past few years. Because, yeah, I historically have been a a worship leader, worship pastor, whatever you wanna call it. So, I mean, since high school, when I started picking up a guitar and leading worship at my little church and over the past season, I've been sort of transitioning away from that and trying to figure out what this kind of next stage of life is and, you know, about turn 35, and so I'm just, like, weird spot of going, am I still a a worship leader? I don't really do that anymore. Like, at least as a vocation on a stage, am I still a worship leader?
Speaker 5:Is there something else that God has for me? And so that I think it's very poignant question in my life right now around are you always a worship leader? And I kinda came to this place of, I don't really see myself as a vocational worship leader anymore, but I do I think as believers, worship is something that we don't outgrow. And so I think that really it just expands the definition for me outside of just a vocation into something that I should be worshiping and even leading my own household in worship in some form or fashion constantly regardless of vocation. But now the the short answer to your question is I don't really consider myself a worship leader anymore.
Speaker 5:The long the long answer is I have no idea, and I'm still figuring that out.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry to send you down an existential, like, moment there. It's not
Speaker 4:a good podcast. It's not like that. It's not
Speaker 5:as much
Speaker 4:as I say. That's right.
Speaker 3:I don't know who I am. No. That's amazing. And I I wanted to mention, you guys just started a new project, First 15 Worship. And you got I mean, you're practically you have a record label.
Speaker 3:You have a devotional. You got books. I mean, you have podcasts. You guys are, like, the GM of Christianity, like the the Christian conglomerate.
Speaker 5:Household cleaning products. Just some God breathed bleach, things like that. So
Speaker 3:Come on. It's good. He he makes us white as snow. So so yeah. I mean, if you're listening, check the show notes for First 15 dotorg as well as First 15 Worship.
Speaker 3:They're on Spotify. They just released an awesome kinda EP with some great music. And and you guys how do I describe you? You carry you carry that that kind of peace, tranquility, that the peace that surpasses understanding. That's what I experience when I read verse 15 or listen to your music.
Speaker 3:And and, I mean, the presence of God should leave us in in a a a place of, okay, receiving, feeling loved, feeling accepted. And I I never walk away from one of your devotionals feeling like Craig wants me to go do something else or wants me to like, the the call to action is to rest. It's it's not to try harder. And so I I have always appreciated your kind of mentality in in doing a devotional. And I think that's important for mentors, which is why I want you to be on the podcast, is is really, I think, mentors are usually the guys that are always looking for something to do, something to do, something to do, that we derive our identity and satisfaction in life based off of the fruit of our life.
Speaker 3:And there may be a lot of questions we have to ask internally about, are we compensating for something trying to find our life outside of ourselves? Or is there really something about what you said, Craig, of God saying, hey. I want I want you to come away with me for a season. Like, I just want this intimacy between us, which is weird saying intimacy on a podcast with 3 dudes. But god wants to call us into an intimate relationship with him.
Speaker 3:And so yeah. I mean, that's why I want you on the podcast, Craig, not not to just teach us how to throw axes or whatever the next guy on the podcast is gonna teach us how to mentor kids from hard places. And so, really, what what are your thoughts? What do mentors need need most in order to be effective mentors of kids from hard places? And how does that influence their their spiritual walk with God?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Man, it's such a good question. And thanks for describing first team that way. That's definitely, like, the hope in prayer. And so the fact that it comes across that way is really confirming and affirming, so I appreciate you saying that. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I think, you know, what God's been doing in my own life, across the last few years, Josh and I talked about this often, as the ministry is growing and family was expanding. I have 2 boys that are 4 and 2, and my wife is busy doing a ton of stuff too where we do a lot as a family, we think, and probably too much. And, it's a weekly conversation process, like, okay, we just last week was too much. That's again, it's like last week was too much. We just are always in that too much space, it feels like.
Speaker 4:But I feel like the main, like, scripture that God's been giving me has been Psalm 4610, which says, be still and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted on the earth. We often quote that be still and know that I'm God peace, but it's in the same chunk in Psalm 46. And I think it's this invitation God gives us to say, like, whether you do anything, like, I am gonna be exalted among the nations and in the earth.
Speaker 4:And in fact, there's something really powerful about starting, like, our faithful activity of blessing those that are around us from a place of stillness, and recognizing that it's God that's moving and working and cares far more deeply about everyone around us than we ever could. And it's from the place of being still and recognizing that, that I think he invites us into meaningful activity. I don't know who to attribute this quote to, but that's been a lot of people have said this, but I think the way I've been thinking about it is that God says that we're human beings more than human doings. You know? And I think his invitation to us, even in the context of like, him coming down to the life and death and resurrection of Jesus is, Jesus came and lived a sinless life, died a sinless death.
Speaker 4:And at the moment of his death, a passage like at Easter we don't often talk about, it was like right after the veil was torn into you from top to bottom, like at the moment. And it says that a bunch of dead people got out of their graves and walked around. Like, that's what it says. And we never tell that at Easter. Like, can you that's insane.
Speaker 4:And we so we miss often. It's like and that we we stop at the death of Jesus, and we're like, we're so grateful for heaven. And we miss the reality that it was at his death that God said my presence now is not contained anymore. Like, it's fully available. And resurrection happens in that moment.
Speaker 4:Like, restoration happened in that moment, and and it's a picture of what life on Earth is meant to look like. And it's a picture that God goes the whole way. Like, you know, with people, you know, it's like we try to go and meet them where they're at. It's like God met us where he meets us where we're at. He has been us where we're at, and he's done all the work we need to do.
Speaker 4:And in that place of just connecting to that and abiding in that, like John 15 says, then then I think from that place of being and and being in a place of health, like, I think we can get into doing. And I often wonder, like, how much better we would be advancing the kingdom of God, because he does say we're the light of the world and the salt of the earth and that we're the hope for the world and, you know, the great commission and this community's advancement. But I have to wonder if that looked like Christians being the healthiest people emotionally, physically, spiritually, and if we had the healthiest families and marriages and relationships and we're productive at work, but not by climbing this ladder of success on the world's definitions, but being productive as God would define productive. Like, if we can give ourselves to that, 1st and foremost, how attractive our faith would be and how much people would be like, that's what I'm looking for. Versus what we try to do, which is be the people that are working our fingers to the bone and we're the most exhausted and we're seeing all these, you know, spiritual leadership failings.
Speaker 4:And our marriages are no healthier statistically in terms of, you know, divorce rates than those outside of the church and all that stuff. It's like, what's attractive about that? There's there's not a lot that feels better to to our lives that's visible. And so I feel that I said, I think if we start from a place of being and then build our place of doing from that, I think the weight can come off, and we can be who God's made us to be and embody our uniqueness in the earth and just do what he's called us to be. Like, we're not the whole body.
Speaker 4:We're meant to be a part of the body of Christ and he's the head and we're the body and we're just a facet of that. And so in all of that, I think that's the main story of God invites us every day to be with him. And then from that place of being, we can find this place that we are naturally in in health able to do. And I think that'll produce far more dividends for the blessing of others around us than anything we can strive to do in our own strength, our own.
Speaker 3:Wow. It's deep. It's deep, Craig. And I love what I love what you said just about what would it look like for Christians to be the healthiest people, the healthiest families, the people that abided, that that had a place to process their pain, were able to say no and not just be consistently burned out by life's challenges and demands. And I I I think there is a part of being a Christian that leads you to think that that's what God expects of you is, well, like, to die is, like, to live is Christ, to die is gain.
Speaker 3:And so we are kind of always thinking in that manner of, like, I'm I gotta be like Jesus and do what Jesus does. And we take a lot of pride in trying to do those things as best we can. We always fall short. But but in a way, what you're saying is, like, God is God. I am not.
Speaker 3:And may maybe taking care of my family, taking care of myself is is really important to him. Maybe spending time with him is really important to him. And it's not just, yeah, an obligation that he has for me, but he actually wants life for me. So That's
Speaker 5:important to recognize too just how counter cultural this is to anything we're gonna see outside of the gospel. You know? Culture is gonna tell you that your value is found in what you produce and how much money you're worth and all the things that you accomplish. And so when we're being said this narrative over and over and over every day, whether it's on on the news, on Netflix, or social media, we begin to believe that that's where our value and importance comes from. And so, of course, we're getting burned out, worn out, feeling adequate.
Speaker 5:And so it's so important for us not just to add Christian principles on top of cultural narrative, but to really redefine what's important and kinda start from the from the beginning and and go where we find our value and our hope in our life in Christ. And we're already before we've done anything valuable and loved. That's what allows you to minister from valuable and loved. That's what allows you to minister from a place of rest, where if you start from the cultural narrative, no, I actually have to work and accomplish and do all these great things to earn that value and respect and love and all of that. And so that's just a recipe for disaster because you, you know I don't know if you've experienced it, but you you keep adding things upon other things.
Speaker 5:Just keep chasing the this elusive success, whether that be in good Christian things or elsewhere. You can still chase this elusive feeling of success or I've done enough or I've made it. And it just it's never there, you know, where because it's just opposite to what the kingdom how the kingdom of God works, where we start from success. We start from acceptance, and then we can, in wisdom and in humility, look for the things that God's called us to and the opportunities that he's given us, not just saying yes because it's another opportunity, but saying yes because that's actually where God wants us to go. And it's it's hard even in Christian circles sometimes to separate the 2, you know, like, both an opportunity for a good thing.
Speaker 5:I should do it. Sometimes, there are opportunities for good things that we shouldn't do. There are places we don't need to go, things we don't need to take on, things that we can say no to, but we can only, I think, have the strength to do that when we feel already loved, already at peace, already at rest, not trying to achieve. And so, that's really what we hope to do in First 15 is encourage people that, you know, 98% of the things you're going to hear today are going to be telling you to strive more, accomplish more, hustle more. That's like the word that you hear all the time these days, hustle.
Speaker 5:Just hustle more. And so, we kind of have to we're leaning the other way and going, Slow down. Stop. You don't have to work so hard. You know?
Speaker 5:You're already loved. You're already accepted. And so it it's just we need more people saying that, I think. Well and
Speaker 3:you have no idea how much that connects to mentoring kids from hard places because the narrative of a kid from poverty is that he needs to be more productive. He needs to do this, to do that, to fall in line, to learn the social cues, to figure out these skills. And and so he's handed a list of a 100 things that he has to know how to do in order to make it. But more often than not, the list is not enough. The the the challenges are are too great for him to overcome him or her.
Speaker 3:And and that really what the kid needs most is someone to accept them for who they are, someone to meet with them, give them presents, be with them, and care about their their person, not just their their product or the things that they create. And yeah. I mean, that that's exactly what we want our mentors to understand. But it's it's funny that I mean, in this, we're fed a narrative from the culture of that's what's expected of us. And so if we're being fed that narrative, naturally, we're feeding others that narrative just by proxy of the example we're living or the things we're teaching and I mean, teaching those expectations within our mentor relationships.
Speaker 3:And so we're just continuing the cycle rather than breaking it, which I I mean, I yeah. I love that you guys are standing here. Woah. Slow down. Like, let's let's let's let's take a minute to rest and and walk with Jesus.
Speaker 3:And, I I mean, I just think that's so good. What here's a question. I mean, you guys sound super spiritual. So I don't I don't know if there's, like, specific qualifications to be be a leader at First 15. Was there, like, a spiritual test you guys had to take to to make it on their assessment?
Speaker 4:Definitely. It's it's 2 weeks in, silent meditation contemplation with only a teaspoon of water every, half day and small serving of dried, uncooked rice. And if you can make it to the other side, then, man, it's rich here. You know, we we got that to, like, a bottle of water a day. So if you get to the other side of that, so it's it's a it's a great spot to be.
Speaker 3:That is crazy. That is crazy. Well, I imagine there's someone listening to this podcast who, let's just be real, doesn't do a quiet time, doesn't see the point, goes to church, takes his family, and prays. I I I wouldn't say consistently, but but praise. What would be your encouragement to this guy?
Speaker 3:And it's and it's funny because I I guess in framing this question, it's like the answer I'm thinking you're gonna say is, well, you gotta you you gotta do something. You gotta figure this out. But for his spiritual walk, if it hasn't consisted of this invitation, it's more of just been maybe walking through what's been handed to him. Maybe his family went to church or the values of Jesus were relevant in his community, why why would this matter? Why would spending time with God, taking time out of his day to just not be productive, which doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3:It's like, no. Let me go mow the lawn, or I don't I don't know what people do. They do things. But yeah. What convince me or convince him why he should care about having a devotional life.
Speaker 3:How is that gonna make me better? How is that gonna
Speaker 4:help? Yeah. That's so good. Hey, you know, I was reminded of this quote by Thomas Merton. He's one of my favorite scripture writers, who said something to the effect of so many people get to the end of their life having climbed a ladder only to realize it was leaning up against the wrong wall, which I think is is a mental picture that really resonates with me.
Speaker 4:And almost I get that sense every day. It's like I can get to the end
Speaker 5:of the day and be
Speaker 4:like, man, I'm exhausted. Like, I worked so hard to climb this thing, but, like, did it matter at the end of the day? And, like, did these string of days really matter? Like, am I really getting myself to those things that matter most in life at the end of the day? And I think that that's where there's this great invitation.
Speaker 4:I think, in terms of what engaging with God can look like and, like, why to value that, I would I would what I would say is, like, at its highest place at the highest level values. Like, I think in our Western expression of our faith, especially, like, us as guys are so it's so typical for us to compartmentalize things. And so, like, our faith is genuinely, like, one of those plates we just try to keep spinning among the other plates that are spinning. And so it's there. It's, like, the plate the the faith plate is spinning, family, work, friends, finances, and then you have, like, all the other things that get added to that.
Speaker 4:And it's just like you're just running around trying to keep all these plates spinning. And faith is one of those. And so it's like, okay. I'm I'm gonna make sure I get to church on Sunday. That way, like, like, give it a good spin on Sunday.
Speaker 4:And it's, like, maybe I try to keep it, like, from falling off on Wednesday or doing this little thing here and there. And it's
Speaker 3:Dude, you gotta spin that thing forward.
Speaker 4:For sure. And you how
Speaker 3:Better go you better go up to the front when they have an invitation. That'll get it finished.
Speaker 4:For sure. And it's like, oh, man. And this is gonna sound it's probably, like, most, like, hot take thing I say. But I think even the way we talk about church is that so often. It's like, hey.
Speaker 4:Come on Sunday and get your faith Lloyd spinning. And it's like, this is your time to get filled filled up for the week, and then you can get empty. I've heard pastors literally say you'll be empty by Saturdays. Make sure you come back on Sunday and get filled up again. And it's like, I don't see that in the bible, and I don't see that as healthy.
Speaker 4:Like, what if we came actually full on Sunday and it was the celebration of what we were already doing with God Monday through Saturday Sunday. Like, it wasn't the place we got filled up. It wasn't the catalyst, but it was the culmination of the fact that, like, God is in us, and he can't get any closer than he already is. Like, first Corinthians says that you and I are the temple of the holy spirit. He calls us to an abiding relationship.
Speaker 4:And nowhere in scripture is, like, a corporate service meant to be, like, the jumping off point for the rest of your week and you get sent out. Like, even the idea of being sent out, it's like, God doesn't leave us. Like, he doesn't send us away from him. It's impossible for us to get away from him. Like, the Psalms say that the heights of the the height and the depths of the depths, the dark and light that God's in all of it.
Speaker 4:You know what I mean? I think that's really valuable for us to recognize for a reason. So I said, obviously, I think the the real shift is a perspective shift to go from faith being one of the plates that we keep spending to being the plate on which everything else is built in our life and placed. And it's the thing that's woven into work. It's like work isn't separate from faith.
Speaker 4:It's the thing that's woven into family. It's the thing that's woven into our sense of purpose and passion. It's the thing that's woven into, like, our energy level that day and, like, what we really feel called to. It becomes the way that we determine, like, what does success look like. Like, it's a redefinition of success, but the great opportunity there is, I think you look at the the if there's 2 ways to live, you look at, you know, climbing that ladder of success up against the wrong wall, and you see people that have the most money.
Speaker 4:You see people that have the most status. You see people that have whatever. And if they don't have that greater purpose in what they do, like, it's not fulfilling. I I you know, privileged to be be in relationship with them and grew up in a very affluent community. And I can tell you it's one of the most broken places I've seen.
Speaker 4:Like, it's it can be incredibly broken, these families that have everything that the world would say you should have. And they if you don't have that loving relationship and the loving perspective from yourself and those things that matter most, no amount of dollars in your bank account matters. And no amount of activity or status really matters. And and God's way of living is such a better way that actually is fulfilling everyday and abundant for the the ways that abundant matters. And and it's a reframing of the way that we do life and then the invitation every day and what we do at time willow with God is, again, not an obligation, but it's a way.
Speaker 4:If I if I go too many days without remembering that and reminding myself of what God says matters and what success really is, then I find myself getting swept up in the current of where the world's taking me. And I'm redefining success the way the world does again, and I'm exhausting myself. So I need that almost daily reminder of what really matters most.
Speaker 5:As you're describing kinda your that guy, you know, who's struggling to pray or do their devotional time or feeling not spiritual enough, I mean, I that that felt like me. That felt like me. You know? Or I'm just like, man, I just needed to I need to spend more time in the word or, like, supposed to be doing more devotional time or I just been, you know, struggling with this or with that, and I'm just not enough. And, you know, I think the the first thing I would say is just to not let shame beat you down, you know, because that that's the first thing that happens that and the the enemy does this, and I think sometimes religion does this.
Speaker 5:It beats you down for not being spiritual enough, for not being good enough. And so we can end up feeling like I'm never gonna be that guy. I'm never gonna be this person that has it all together or or is spiritual enough to forgot to use me or to love me fully. You know? And I mean, I was been in ministry most of my life and felt insufficient all the time because I wasn't quite in the word enough or praying enough or close to God enough.
Speaker 5:I don't think that was ever the heart of God, that I was not enough because I didn't spend enough time with him that week. But the dangerous part is that you still have these pressures and expectations to perform for God, and accomplish all these things from maybe a place that's not healthy and not from a deep well. And so, you're always trying to draw from that well to serve and to love and yet internally feeling like I don't have anything to draw from. And what it creates is this kind of disintegrated persona where who you are in reality is different from who you are internally. And the more you go on like that and push harder and harder and harder, the drier and drier and drier you get, the more disintegrated or that's where the word disintegrated comes from, where you're literally breaking into pieces because what's true about you and what you portray are 2 separate things.
Speaker 5:And so I think what's so critical for people who aren't doing any kind of ministry, and what I mean by that is trying to use their life to glorify God and to love others. That's that's ministry. What I mean by that, not even vocation. Anybody who has that passion that it's so important to be an integrated person where you're not being somebody different than who you well, you're not internally different than who you're portraying yourself to be. And so, you know, for me, if I find that guy and I and I have been, I just start with honesty with myself and with others and just go, this is where I'm at.
Speaker 5:And with with guys like you and go, this is where I'm at. I just not I'm struggling to connect with God, and I'm don't find the value there right now, or I'm not feeling filled up, but I do connect with him and not feeling the presence of God. And I just don't like these other things get in the way. Like, just starting honestly and just talking about it is super important. It's not something we do very often.
Speaker 5:We wanna, like, you know, post our quick quote we found from scripture today on Instagram and look all spiritual when inside we're, like, struggling. You know? So being honest about where we're at is huge. And then, you know, the the other thing that's been important for me is just to do an honest evaluation around is the way I'm doing things right now working for me. And just, you know, that our lives are really they're the sum of our our choices, how we choose to spend our time.
Speaker 5:And so there's been seasons where I've been doing a lot of things at the expense of actually connecting with God on an individual level. And that was destroying me inside, frankly, where I just was you know, that I felt that disintegrated disintegration happening where I would go for me on a stage on Sunday and talk about how good God is and, like, this is the best way to live and following Jesus is better than anything else. And then I'd go home and feel miserable. And I felt that pole between this is I'm now at this point living a lie, and I think we end up doing that as Christians or can do that as Christians. That's why we get called out for being hypocrites as Christians sometimes.
Speaker 5:That's why that's the stigma around Christianity is because we are proclaiming something that we're not always reflecting. And so but when I when I started asking the question, is this working for me? The answer was no. And I had to look and go, okay. What do I change?
Speaker 5:And I began to realize that, man, I'm sure doing a lot of stuff for God and not spending a lot of time with him. Maybe I need to actually cut some things out of all the things I'm achieving for God and all the work I'm doing for him in order to actually have relationship with him. And that felt like I was almost demoting myself. I felt fear around what other people would think about me. I felt like I didn't have enough to offer God as, you know, like I did before.
Speaker 5:Like, I was doing all this stuff for him. Certainly, he's proud of me, and I felt like I didn't have that. And so I almost had to rework my relationship with him, and go, okay, God. Before I go do a bunch of stuff for you again, I need to feel like I'm okay before I do that. And so I you know, part of again, going back to my reevaluating, am I a worship leader?
Speaker 5:Like, part of the season has been I'm not leading worship on stage on Sundays because I what started as me just loving to worship God on a guitar in my room turned into only doing that on stage because it was my job. And so I actually had to stop doing that, for a season and bring it back to the purity and integrity of what it really was meant to be before stepping back into that in a healthy place again if I ever do. And if I never do, that's okay. I I'd rather have the real relationship with God than a fake show. You know?
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:100%. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 4:As you're talking, Josh, just gave me this, like, mental picture of, you know, when a gardener, like gardeners don't just, like, plant these trees and then expect them. They just preach fruit all the time. Like, they know there's a seasonality to that, and I think God creates and in scripture, he uses, like, nature metaphors and growth metaphors often for a reason. Because we meant to look at our seasons, and Romans says that nature declares the invisible attributes of God, like and I think nature speaks so much to the ways of God. Like and you look at if if something's not producing fruit, the farmer doesn't, like, go to, like, the very end of that and be like, he needs to work harder.
Speaker 4:It's like, why is it not working hard? Like, it's there's something wrong about that connection to nutrients. There's something wrong about where it's not the season where you're supposed to be getting that fruit out, but it's not a season for it to bear fruit. But I think there's work to be done still every day, but it's that work looks interior. You know, it doesn't look like a harvest every day.
Speaker 4:There's a season for that. And I think, but what we want in our expression of our faith is constant fruit. We always want that chart to go up into the right and growth and measure and more and more and more. And I think when when farmers actually try to do that for their for their land, that's when you see land get more unhealthy. And, eventually, it's unusable, and they have to go right back to, like, the the beginning again.
Speaker 4:And you're seeing, like, you know, even better, like, farming practices actually come to bear right now with our country because farmers were that was the expectation that are they were kinda cutting cutting corners to be able to just constantly get harvest and wasn't good for the land. And so I think God is, like, there with us, and we so often judge ourselves and others by, is it a harvest or not? And we see others in harvest season, and we're like, why am I not in harvest season? What do I do to get there? But often, it looks like the hard work of telling the soil and making sure the nutrients are there and that, you know, that John 15 idea we're connected to the vine.
Speaker 4:And then from there, it's like the branch doesn't work hard to bear fruit. It just bears fruit when it's supposed to. You know? It's like, is it just connected to the vine? And it will.
Speaker 4:You know? And and the fruit it's that it's supposed to bear, not the same fruit that every other other vineyards bear. It has the the own fruit it's supposed to bear. I think that we have to, like, reframe success in relationship with God like that. The the one practical thought that comes to mind is there's a book by Henry Cloud called Boundaries That I Love, and he says in that book that one of the key ways to set boundaries of the things you should be doing and not doing is is the idea that God never asks you to say yes with your mouth when there's a no in your heart.
Speaker 4:Like, if there's a no in your heart, you can try to work on your heart to see if you can get it to yes, if you want there to be a yes there, but don't say yes until there's a yes in your heart. And if there's not a yes in your heart, say no. Like and I think that's so hard for me to do in front of you. But, I think that that can be such a powerful way to kinda have that paradigm shift. Should I be doing this or not?
Speaker 4:And what kind of season am I in? And what what should that look like?
Speaker 3:I hate you, Henry Cloud. So good. So good. I need boundaries. Because, I mean, I I think for for me, it comes at this false understanding of what god expects of me and that that that's that's the question that I always answer is, like, well, does god expect this of me?
Speaker 3:Does he do it? Maybe I should do it. Is anyone else willing to do it? No. Okay.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll do it. And that's how I usually go about my entire life. And that runs out pretty quick. And, I mean, you run out on empty, and then you have nothing to give. And you've given a model to others who are following you that they can't they can't, like, replicate without killing themselves and creating all of these expectations that are just kind of unrealistic.
Speaker 3:And I mean, I think, Josh, your disintegrated word was cool. I wish I could do that with words. Mhmm. It's like I was trying to think of a word to say. It's like integrity.
Speaker 3:It means it means I'm really integritty. Yeah. No. That was cool. I love that.
Speaker 3:But I I think that the disintegrated as well as the plates, like, that is the disintegrated where we're trying to do all of the things and not realizing that God's wanting to like, wanting our faith to be woven into the fabric of our life, and that it it would be the thing that is holding all the all the other things together. I just I I love that. Now for for mentors, I'll say that I think there's a desire to see fruit. There's a desire to see life change. And and a lot a lot of the times in our own life, I think personally in our relationship with god, we want the breakthrough.
Speaker 3:Like and and there are there have been significant moments in my life where God has just shown up in unexpected ways, moved in in in the moment, and not just the long haul prayer where you prayed for 15 years or whatever. I said 15 years, 15 minutes is first 15. Right? You're not asking people for 15 years of devotion.
Speaker 4:I mean, I forget that. You know?
Speaker 3:But yeah. I mean, it it's funny that first 15 is is the long term game, and yet it's 15 minutes every morning. Like, spending time with god for 15 minutes could actually be you playing the long term game for your spiritual walk with God. And some people, that that may be there may be a misconception there of, like, no. If I'm trying to do something long term, that means I gotta go to these conferences.
Speaker 3:I gotta buy buy all these materials, all these commentaries. I gotta get Tony Evans' commentary, for sure. I gotta I gotta
Speaker 4:buy a concordance and Strong's
Speaker 3:and, like, there's just this design that's like, well, we just need all of the things in order to make it. And you're just saying, no, just get in front of God for 15 minutes and just shut your mouth. It's kinda it's kinda minutes and just shut your mouth.
Speaker 4:It's kinda
Speaker 5:it's kinda less things. We need less things, ultimately. You know? I think we put add on so many things that don't matter. You know?
Speaker 5:Like, how many how much time we spend on our phones, how much time we're watching Netflix, how much time we're just doing things that don't matter and ultimately really aren't that life giving for us. You know? I don't ever feel like rejuvenated after watching, bingeing a Netflix show. Like, I I feel like I spaced out and distracted myself from what's really going on in my heart and my mind, but I don't feel refreshed. You know?
Speaker 5:So I think there's so much really that what's so powerful, I think, about spending that time with God is not that I just added a bunch of information in my mind or made, like, in my spiritual to do list just got super long all of a sudden, the goal is just to slow down. You see even Jesus all the time. Everybody was pulling him everywhere all the time. Even in his day, in that culture, which was significantly slower than ours today, people were pressing and pulling on Jesus all the time. And even then, he's like, stop.
Speaker 5:He's like getting out of there, spending time away. You know? And so how much more in this, like, American culture that we live in where it's just hustle all the time? You know, it's only been, you know, however many decades where we've had electricity and lights, or you could even work past daylight hours. That hasn't been that long in the the history of humanity that that's been possible.
Speaker 5:You know? So what we are capable of working way more and at a faster pace than ever before in human history. And so it's now more important than ever for us to just to learn how to slow down that that God is in the stillness. And, you know, again, for me, I found that, I you know, I just it wasn't that I wasn't spending enough time in scripture and, like, pressing in and learning and, yeah, reading the commentaries. It just I wasn't quiet enough just in my own mind, just quiet enough for a long enough period of time just for god to even have a chance to get a word in.
Speaker 5:You know? Like, we you know, I was always asking god, why don't you speak to me? Why don't I feel your presence? And I'm just, like, hustling from, you know, morning to night. Like, where does he have this where does he have space to show up?
Speaker 5:And so, you know, I think in in Christian circles, we end up making lists of things we need to accomplish where God's just like, just slow down and just invite me in. That's you know, it feels way different when it's this to do list that we have to add or an invitation to just slow down and be in this presence. You know?
Speaker 4:Sounds so good. You know, I I think this is a fierce background for about, like, inviting me inviting me inviting me to, like, this this mentality of less and redefinition of success, and he still does that every day. And I think one of my main fears was, like, what if I stop and I don't wanna start again? Like, what if I really let go and I stop trying to keep this plate spinning? Like, what if it falls off the the pole it's on?
Speaker 4:You know? And it really what if it crashes and breaks and I can't put the pieces back together, and what's gonna be left? Which I think was speaking to how exhausted and burnout I was that I didn't have a trust that I actually desired to do the things I was doing. I just was committed to this activity and was afraid if I stopped, I wouldn't start again. I think a lot of people get into that place because of how we define success and how tired we are so often.
Speaker 4:And I think this has been a hard thing for me to figure out how to talk about, but I think I've been getting more and more convinced of this truth. Like, that within scripture, I think how God sees us is as made in the image of himself. That's what Genesis tells us, is that you and I are made in the image of God. Scripture tells us that the very nature of God is love. Not that he does the activity of love, like he is love.
Speaker 4:And I think at our core, when I look at humanity and human beings, we are loving beings. Like, that's who we are. And when we're not, it's because we're acting a different way than how God created us, or something happened that interrupted that connectivity between our original design for our creation? Like, there was a wound, there was a trauma, there was something that interrupted that flow of what what life is about. And I think we're acting out even of that wound so often.
Speaker 4:Like, who we are as loving beings. And when you look at individual people, I think you find that they're genuinely loving. Like, what they want out of life is love. Who they wanna be is loving, and that might be a different definition of what that looks like, but that's what they think they're doing. And I think if we slow down and we take a break and we be first, I think you'll discover that you actually do wanna get active and loving towards others.
Speaker 4:Like, that will be there. It's not gonna be gone. It's not gonna get lost. And you'll find that it's so much more productive and effective when you wake up and you say, I have capacity for this person I just met. Like, I'm meeting in the context of mentoring.
Speaker 4:I'm hearing this opportunity to get involved in the life of another person. And I'm meeting this person. I really am feeling a pull towards them. And I have capacity for that. Like, I have love for them.
Speaker 4:I have energy. I have a loving perspective of myself. My family is healthy. I'm in a place where I've made room and capacity to do this naturally. So I wake up and this is, oh my god.
Speaker 4:I gotta go do this thing. Even if there's those times we have to fulfill commitments and we and we do occasionally work our way into that sense of, like, I know I want to be here and I'm gonna get here. I think there's a value to that occasionally too, but it shouldn't be the norm. And if if overall we wake up every day and we're allowing ourselves to be who we are, which is love, like, maybe the image of love, loving beings, then I think we'll find that there's so much more fruit that will be natural. Like like, Jesus used that image for a reason.
Speaker 4:He says, abide in me and I in you, for apart from me, you can do nothing. And that when we abide in him, that we will bear fruit, like, is the promise. And I think we'll find that we'll do that in a way that's natural, that's not forced, that's not coerced, that's healthy, that happens in its season, that's connected to the overall body of Christ, and that just that rediscovery that, oh, I do like doing things, actually. And I do I do love people, even when I've let go of that definition of success as a definition of, you know, a mass amount of activity that's visible to others. Like, and letting all that go, it's been so life giving to discover that all that stuff is actually there and is natural for me.
Speaker 4:It's kinda who God's made me to be. And, it's so much more fulfilling now actually when I feel like I'm active in the times that I'm doing that well, whereas less exhausting because it's it's it's fulfilling for me in in a way because I know it's what I was created for.
Speaker 3:That's so good, Craig. And it it dispels the lie that we have to live disintegrated. Right. Like, we can we can choose to be integrated and not put forward this other version of ourselves to prove that we're loving, prove that we're worthy, prove that we're we're great. I mean, I love when people think I'm great, but, like, I can't I can't live with that pressure of trying to make everyone think that I'm great because I'm gonna die.
Speaker 5:I think too, Stuart, what I mean, what you're saying earlier about just your heart for mentoring and you see all these good opportunities, like, for the kingdom and to love people, that's those are god breathed things. You know? And that's, like, gets so confusing about it is that Also, that's not you. That's not selfish you. That's you pouring yourself out for a God breathed heart.
Speaker 5:That's you being connected to the heart of God and his love for people. So, we don't want to villainize doing stuff because that is the action and the activity of God. And so that's powerful. And you've always been inspiring to me in that way because I tend to be a little more of a hermit and you're out loving people, which I think is a lot more like Jesus. But I do think it's just important to recognize that we we can't do everything.
Speaker 5:You know? We are we are limited as people, and there's an inevitably some loss. It's usually worldly loss. You know? Like, to to do things for God in a healthy way means we have to give up some things.
Speaker 5:You know? Like, at one point, I had to go, am I willing to just not make as much money? And so I can say no to things. And that was that was a hard one for me. Like, I I like money.
Speaker 5:I like what makes more money or be able to go eat out more or whatever. Am I willing to make less money to be healthy and to what god's called me to do to call me to do? Okay. You know, am I willing to look a little less successful or not be known as much to be healthy and to do what god's called me to do? Right.
Speaker 5:Okay. I can you know? And so I think there is recognizing this this loss that we have to also, account for for the sake of being able to do what we're talking about to accomplish things with the heart of God, but also not kill ourselves in the process. You know? So, anyway, man, I appreciate your heart too for just loving people, and it's it's awesome.
Speaker 5:Wanna be more like you.
Speaker 3:Thanks, man. Well, I wanna be like you guys. And I I tell you every time, like, I'm with y'all, my blood pressure just, like, goes down. And I I don't even know what blood pressure is, but I could just feel it. And and things like this, like, I'm sure a mentee who has a mentor who's abiding in Jesus, he's going to feel that experience.
Speaker 3:And and I think that that is something that might possibly be more valuable than any wisdom or teaching that that mentor could give is a presence that gives you peace and helps you to feel known and feel rest. And, like, that that's really valuable. And and so I never wanted to do this episode, but here, I'll say it. Like, yes, you can mentor, but maybe there are seasons that you shouldn't. Maybe you should take, a time off the field.
Speaker 3:Like, Ecclesiastes says there's a there's a season for sowing, and there's a season for reaping. There's a season to build up and a season to tear down. Maybe there's a season to not be mentoring, because God wants you to be healthy. And maybe being healthy means you you take a seat for a season. And that that's that's okay, that that's godly, that that, like, brings him honor, that you would be humble enough to do it.
Speaker 3:Or if you exalt yourself and do it and it gets taken from you, either your your marriage suffers and you get a divorce or your life gets on fire, your business is going crazy, and you have to bail out. Like, it's it's either we give it up or we lay it down. And it's probably better to lay it down in humility than have it taken from us,
Speaker 5:I would
Speaker 3:I would say, which is is hard, hard for us to do. I mean, I've had mentors in our own organization who are starting new businesses, who are walking through the pandemic trying to navigate all of life's challenges right now with families and feeling the pressure to continue mentoring to push through. And a lot of them, it's killing them. And I have to be clear with them. Like, hey.
Speaker 3:I care about you. Like, as a as a man, I care about your family. I care about your responsibilities. Like, yes, mentoring is is great. And, I mean, this kid loves you.
Speaker 3:But at the same time, I love you, and and I want you to be okay and be okay with not fulfilling your commitment but taking a season off. And and I think sometimes mentoring organizations, that's hard for us to say because we're like, we want more volunteers. We want everyone to give more time. We want to see the impact. But, really, for us, it's probably best for us to say, hey.
Speaker 3:Dial it down. Less is more and really recognize the seasonal nature of life that could affect a mentor's commitment. So, man, I'd I love what you guys shared. I love, I mean, just what I feel when I'm around y'all and hope that other people, other mentors who are crazy like me find friends like you to be in their corner to kinda balance this out. Because Josh was saying that I'm more like Jesus.
Speaker 3:I feel like you guys are more like Jesus, because you're you're walking, an abiding life and a humble life, talking about these things with your wife and recognizing the temptations that you face. And and so I just I really appreciate you guys. The last thing I was gonna say I know I'm a little over my time, and you guys are important. In in mentoring, we ask a bunch of questions. And one of the one of the things that drives mentors crazy is when you ask kids questions and they don't answer.
Speaker 3:So we say things like, hey. How was your day? What was your favorite part of your day? What was difficult about your day? Things like your highs and lows, your roses and thorns, your I don't know what else they call it in in your world.
Speaker 3:What what do they call it in your world? Do they say highs and lows?
Speaker 4:We think about, like, ups and downs, wins and losses. I don't know. Just like that.
Speaker 5:Yeah. We do highs and lows for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well and you can get really frustrated when a kid, his responses to these answers are good, fine, no, yes. And what I began to recognize because I have I probably have 2 friends that are like this in my life that ask me questions about how I'm doing and getting into my space. And I'll realize that I answer in the same way, that I'm completely unaware my relationship with God of receiving knowledge from him, not, like, I guess, growing in self awareness and processing my own, junk, like and laying it down at his feet. God, I'm feeling like this because of this.
Speaker 3:And and that process me doing that is gonna make me a better mentor. If I'm if I'm processing my own pain, bringing it to the Lord, that's gonna set me up to be able to, have those conversations and and be a guide that's abiding rather than just frustrated that this kid's not answering questions that even me myself won't even answer because I haven't gone there. So that that was just a thought in my head.
Speaker 5:It's so good.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's so good to have an opportunity just even that's what my time with God looks like swapped, and it's just it's me discovering how I'm doing too. Not just who God is and what he says matters most and all that, but it's a time every day to start my day just trying to be my kids awake. You know? Like, there's such a value, I think, for parents even of getting awake before your kids just to rec realize that you're a full human being, you know, before kids start and work starts and everything else in your day starts.
Speaker 4:Like, even if you just spend those 15 minutes, like, sitting outside, drinking a cup of coffee or something, like, just recognizing that you're a full adult human being, like, without these other things in your life starting can be so valuable. And that's what adoption looks like for me is that time of self assessment, just checking in. And I think God does that. He asks those questions of me so often. That's one of those valuable pieces.
Speaker 4:It's like I walk away being like, oh, here's why I'm feeling so stressed or why I feel like I have capacity today or just that sense of of of awareness. And even like you're saying, Josh, that sense of being connected to myself, let alone connected to God and able to go out and bear fruit as a as a facet of abiding in him.
Speaker 5:Yeah. I just think we we have the opportunity to change the the normal. Like, I think about my dad and his struggle to connect with his emotions and be present with me in in a lot of ways. And then but I look back at his dad, and it was even more more challenged, more of a struggle for him. And I have a little compassion for why my dad is that way.
Speaker 5:And then I recognize the capacity myself to be that way too, unaware of my emotions, not emotionally connecting even with my my boys because I'm just busy and active and doing stuff. And so I I think it's so important that if you're talking about mentoring, being good humans, being good dads, things like all of that, we have to do the work ourselves to be present with ourselves, be present with God, connect with him. We are mentoring and leading whether we like it or not in some form or fashion. People are looking to us. And so I think we really do start with the personal responsibility that we have to to to know who we are, know how we're feeling, be able to answer the questions ourselves before we can expect others to be able to answer the questions.
Speaker 5:And and I love what you're saying, Steven. It's really leading by example. The the really big example of who we are and the presence that we carry and the people are going to see that more than they're going to see the or remember the words that we shared with them. They're going to remember that, man, there's just this piece. You know?
Speaker 5:Or, yeah, they they actually stepped down on some things and and to actually be healthy and take care of their family and themselves. And maybe I could do maybe that's important. You know? So I I do think it's something I have to remind myself constantly is I need to be an example, not just do do things or tell my kids what to do. They should see that modeled every day, you know, or at least I would hope every day.
Speaker 5:I'm not not there yet, but one of these days.
Speaker 3:So good, man. Wow. This this has been Rich, guys. That is Craig Dennison, Josh Miller, the first 15 podcast devotional worship group. What what else did you say?
Speaker 3:Kitchen kitchen stuff's coming out later? Yep. Later this year, 2021?
Speaker 4:Like, a a clothing line for dogs as well. It's like something I'm really passionate about. So, like, look out for that in maybe the next, like, I don't know. Call it, like, 17 and a half months.
Speaker 5:Oh, man.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow. Well, once once you guys come out with your own, like, logoed snuggies or something for quiet times, y'all should think about that. I mean, or or scented candles. I don't I don't know if there's a first 15 scented candle.
Speaker 5:Holy spirit scented? Break the scented word
Speaker 3:with that.
Speaker 4:I don't
Speaker 3:know. Dude, dude, I'm throwing I'll I'll throw you out some more ideas over
Speaker 5:here now.
Speaker 4:Development team. I need I need
Speaker 5:one more thing to do, Steven. You're just telling us.
Speaker 3:No, guys. No. I'm not. I'm actually gonna stop doing this podcast. This is my last episode.
Speaker 3:So love you guys. Thank you all so much for investing in mentors and mentoring leaders. How can how can people connect with you guys?
Speaker 4:That's great. Yeah. If you guys are if you're looking for a way to share meaningful time with God every day, our devotional stuff is free. You can go to first15.org, that's first15.org, and sign up to get it by email. We have a podcast and mobile app.
Speaker 4:We try to get devotionals wherever you're at. So the probably best place to go would be first15.org and sign up and start giving devotionals for free to your inbox first thing every morning.
Speaker 3:Come on. Last question. What what would you say is your biggest competitor?
Speaker 4:Oh, the Bible.
Speaker 5:No. I'm just kidding. You're gonna lose that one.
Speaker 4:That's a great question. I honestly I love devotional content and so I'm like a devotional junkie. So I've read, like, my utmost for its highest for any of your years. I think Jesus Calling is awesome. I do, like, YouVersion reading plans for, like, the bible app.
Speaker 4:There's a bunch of good stuff in there. So and then there's, like, a fit a lot of people that did the devotionals now, and so it's just every kind of their flavor. But, our goal is, like, you know, be more experiential than informational. It's kinda a little bit different with worship and prayer in but there's a bunch of great stuff. I honestly am constantly reading other people's stuff.
Speaker 3:It's awesome. The snooze button is your biggest competitor.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Probably social media, honestly, and like how it how it pulls you on this platform and sucks you in the vortex. Phone notifications. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You should, you should send out notifications from God.
Speaker 4:That's a great, that's a great you like,
Speaker 5:and they, and you get,
Speaker 3:I don't know if that's heretical or
Speaker 4:not. Work with iPhone or apple so that, like, you cannot swipe it. It's, like, god, it's time you did your devotional and the clock starts and your phone locks for 15 minutes until you finish. Coercion. I I think it's devotional by coercion is the next step.
Speaker 5:The ideas are just flowing. Loving this.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love you guys. Thank you all for being on the podcast.
Speaker 4:Thanks for having us, man. Seriously.