It's Thursday, March 21st, and this is the 19 09, the state news's weekly podcast featuring our reporters talking about the news. I'm your host, Alex Walters. This week, an app is tracking MSU's parking enforcers and then notifying students, keeping them one step ahead of the cops and without a ticket. We'll hear about the MSU software who coded the app and how it's being used today. Then, 96% of the university's voting faculty are asking Michigan's governor to remove 2 members of MSU's board.
Alex:But will she? We'll hear about experts on the part of Michigan's constitution giving her the right who say that she might have a strong case. So with that, let's start the show. Alright. Well, Hannah, welcome to the show.
Alex:Do you want to introduce yourself? You're a new guest of the 19 09?
Hannah:Yes. So I'm Hannah Holy Cross, and I am on the regional desk as the public safety and breaking news reporter.
Alex:Yes. And so you've done a lot of, you know, great reporting on some of the crime cops, whatnot around East Lansing, and especially on parking tickets, which, you know, if you go to MSU, if you're on campus lot, you probably know sort of a big deal and you've done some reporting kind of on the sheer scale of it. For those not accustomed to attempting to park on this campus, tell us about PACE, you know, in the last year. How big is their ticket writing operation?
Hannah:Yeah. So it's definitely especially with the recent price increase in parking tickets, students have kind of almost formed an alliance against PACE because it has become such an issue, especially with the cost. And so there's been group chat. There's a big group we call the, PACE spottings, where students will spot PACE to try to get out of parking tickets by logging on to the there's this app, the SpotOn app, which is how you pay for parking on campus. So you can pay from anywhere.
Hannah:So say that a student reports PACE in a certain lot, then you can quickly go on your phone, type in your license plate, pay for about 30 minutes, because that's how long PACE stays.
Alex:The students have been using just like a group chat to do this kind of, like, texting each other, PACE is here or there. Mhmm. But you wrote a great story this week, last week about sort of a more sophisticated model for that created by an MSU student.
Hannah:It's this app.
Alex:And so before we get into the app, how it works and whatnot, just tell us about you know, you talked to the student. How does this person decide to spend so much of his time creating this app that's gonna, you know, track the parking police?
Hannah:So he originally started it almost as kind of a joke with one of his friends for the com the competition SpartaHack.
Alex:Mhmm.
Hannah:And he was inspired because he has a friend who, works as a TA in the computer science department. So he works primarily out of the STEM building, which, as most students know, the closest place to park to be in the STEM building is the lot 79, which is the football stadium. And so that is a pay by plate lot. And so what his friend said was that having to be at the STEM building for as long as he had to for work, the cost would come out to be too much. Mhmm.
Hannah:And so he would not pay, but then the tickets got so expensive. Yeah. So and he got ticket after ticket. So it, inspired Kashab, which is the creator of the app, to do that for the competition, which is on the time limit.
Alex:Yeah.
Hannah:And then kinda left it for the summer, forgot about it, and then circled back to it the the following fall because he had improved his app developing skills and kinda wanted to see where it would go. And now it's kinda taken off. It has over 500 downloads, and it very much follows the format of the group chat I was talking about, but like you said, more sophisticated, more organized. You get notifications. There's a map, all of that.
Alex:And so if you're a user of the app, you kind of have to pay into it. Right? By, like, you know, if you spot the police, if you get a ticket, you see it, you tell the app they're here, and then everybody on the app can know where they are at any given time. So it kind of reminds
Hannah:me of there's the the app for the CADA buses on campus. They kinda report where the buses are so students can track them. It's very similar to that. So you report it into the app. Oh, I'm in lot 79 and PACE is here.
Hannah:And so it will send out a notification, and anyone who is parked in lot 79 knows, okay, PACE typically stays in a lot for around 30 minutes ticketing people. So let me log on, pay for the 30 minutes, which is cheaper than paying for, say, I'm in a 2 hour lecture. Let me just pay for the 30 minutes instead of the 2 hours. So it saves money, and it prevents you from getting that 20 to $40 ticket.
Alex:Yeah. So let's say, you know, you you're a student. You're listening to the 19:0:9, and you're thinking, how do I how do I get in on this? How to do this? How do you download the app?
Alex:How do you set it up, use it? Do you have to pay for it? That kind of
Hannah:thing. So it's available on the App Store, and it's free. Your phone does have to be updated to the latest iOS, though. Mhmm. So, like, I haven't been able to update it.
Hannah:I've seen a few people in the PACE group chat say they weren't able to download it. So as long as your phone is updated, you can download that.
Alex:I see. So it's available on the app store like anything else. And what about you know, because it seems like thus far, it's kind of a pretty simple concept. Right? And it works.
Alex:It's not really that different than the group chat other than kind of the interface and the notifications. Mhmm. But what you talk to the student about is that what he's developing eventually is sort of a more complex version with this, like, machine learning. How is it, you know, in his ideal vision gonna work 6 months a year from now with this new model?
Hannah:Yeah. So he's trying to gather more long term data for the app. So instead of just instantaneous, here's where PACE is, I'm reporting it, let's send out this notification, he's trying to gather data on what times are most popular for a pace to be ticketing, what lots get ticketed the most often, at what times and days of the week. So then students have that on the app and they can be, like, well, Wednesday at noon is when they're always at the football stadium, or Thursday, they're always here, and this is where the most tickets happen. This is, like, the time period.
Hannah:So students could know, like, okay. If I have an 8 AM class, are they even out at this time?
Alex:I see. So instead of just, right now, it's sort of purely like a reactive model. Right? Like, you report Pace's here and everybody knows. Mhmm.
Alex:It could sort of predict based on Pace's past behavior where you might encounter them in the future.
Hannah:Yeah. So kinda take that data and it'll almost have a memory to
Alex:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's very impressive. And a great story too about a cool thing an MSC student is doing. You might be able to get in on if you're listening.
Alex:But yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Hannah. It's a great story.
Hannah:No problem. Thank you for having
Alex:me. Yeah. Alright. Well, Theo, welcome back to the show. Thank you.
Alex:Guests of the 19 09. Always a pleasure to have you.
Theo:I love being here.
Alex:So I'm gonna ask you, Make it so short. Okay? I don't wanna have to cut you off. The faculty, 96 over 96% of them are asking Whitmer, the governor of our state, to remove 2 trustees from MSU's board. What?
Alex:What's going on? Why?
Theo:They're supporting an investigation into board impropriety that basically found that Vassar and Denno, they, you know, interfered in university affairs. They manipulated students, to, you know, orchestrate attacks on colleagues among several other things. They're, yeah, basically condemning those actions.
Alex:I see. And so, you know, these actions, formerly now board chair, Rima Vassar, board member, Dennis Denno. We've done another episode of the 9th 09 exploring this in-depth. We actually did multiple in the fall about this, plenty of reporting. But today, you've got something new to bring us, which is this whole Whitmer thing, which first of all, before we get into the story you wrote, why are they asking Whitmer to do this?
Alex:Why is she involved?
Theo:Yeah. So the the governor has the the right under the constitution. She has the power to remove publicly elected officials. So for Michigan, you know, these trustees are are elected by in in the statewide elections, and and they count under that jurisdiction. So she would be the one that has the power to remove them from their positions.
Alex:I see.
Theo:And it's a very specific part of the constitution that really has very rarely been ever used. And I think it's it's worth reading out loud. So, in order to remove someone, she would have to do so for gross neglect of duty or for corrupt conduct in office or for any misfiance or malphiance therein. So it's a very general, vague power
Alex:that
Theo:she has.
Alex:And it's not a power that the board itself has. Like, as we've seen, you know, MSU's board, they can't kick their own people off, but they have now there's 8 of them total. The other 6 of them have referred formally these 2 to the governor and basically said, like, we'd be behind you if you wanted to take her off the or take these 2 off the board. But so what did, you know, what has she said publicly about this?
Theo:Yeah. Last she said, someone from her her office told me that they are carefully reviewing this request.
Alex:Yeah.
Theo:So it is really still kind of up in the air about what she'll actually do, whether she'll utilize this this really historically unused,
Alex:right that she has. And so what you did this week that, you know, you're here to talk about, because it's a great story, is, you know, the we're supposedly the governor is having these conversations, reviewing this, deciding whether or not she's gonna take action. You talk to experts on that part of the constitution, academic types who study constitutional law, and also attorneys who have worked for previous governors doing stuff like looking at removal and put together a story where you have these experts who are directly involved kind of opining and, theorizing about what might these conversations look like, what might the governor do. And so I want you to tell us, you know, what do these experts tell you? What might be going on back in Yeah.
Alex:The governor's office?
Theo:Right. Well, you know, I I was told that these these things are are being discussed legally. I mean, they're due to the nature of of this position not being really used, they need to sort of figure out exactly how to interpret this clause. And that's kind of what the centers of my conversations were about. So I spoke to, Robert Sedler.
Theo:He's a retired, constitutional law expert. He worked on the Kwame Kilpatrick case. This is the former mayor mayor of Detroit.
Alex:One of really the only recent examples of a governor using this power.
Theo:So, Jennifer Granholm, yeah, he she initiated these removal hearings. I I believe he resigned before, it actually went into effect. But, yeah, he told me that, her Vassar and Deno's actions, they do meet this this clause.
Alex:It's that His legal interpretation
Theo:Yes. Is that yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That that it does warrant removal.
Theo:Specifically, you know, interfering in affairs and legal disputes, which the the report went into extensively, that constitutes a breach of duty. They're not doing what trustees should be doing. And a breach of duty, is is kind of counts as a gross neglect of duty, which is what's described specifically in that, article in the constitution. So it warrants removal in that respect, he says. Other professors say that, that that I spoke to say that, you know, taking these gifts from donors, which Vassar did, accepting plane rides, etcetera, tickets.
Theo:That's whatnot. Right. Exact yeah. Exactly. They also sort of, in a similar way, give the appearance of impropriety.
Theo:And, you know, they're they're in a position where they're profiting off of the board, which, you know, is kind of not what they're supposed to be doing. You know, it's it's a breach of that duty again. Yeah. Yeah. But so
Alex:and one thing that I think is interesting here is that these experts that you talk to, they say, you know, we can look at this legal wording in the constitution for what constitutes something bad enough to get removed for office for. They can read this report and say these things do meet that that threshold and these are lawyers who can read it and know, do this legal interpretation. But what they also seem to tell you is that let's say, Whitmer does make that decision. She decides, okay. I feel this is worth removing somebody over.
Alex:There's not, I guess, necessarily, like, a road map of what people can expect that to look like. Right? I mean, did they tell you anything about, like, this process that's about to happen? Is there any sort of indication of what that's like? Or is it so historic and unprecedented and whatnot that she'll sort of decide how to carry out this power that she has in a way that's new?
Theo:Well, it's it's in the very rare instances that it's used, it expect it's expected that the governor, begins a hearing of sorts. That's what happened with Granholm and and Kwami Kilpatrick. They start a hearing where they're basically able to see both sides of the story in a sense. So this so this is an outside review, but, they stress the importance of hearing Vassar and Deno's response.
Alex:I see. So they'll get some chance to sort of defend themselves, and then the governor will act as almost a judge in this year.
Theo:Well, she'll
Alex:decide if she's gonna exert that power and and take
Theo:a while. She has really all the power in the sense. She's actually supposed to, in many in many cases, conduct the hearing herself and then judge the evidence herself and make the decision herself.
Alex:She's sort of like the prosecutor and the judge and the jury. Mhmm. Yeah.
Theo:At least, you know, on the front. I mean Powerful job. Yeah. Exactly.
Alex:Yeah. And what about, you know, for your story, Vassar and Dano, the trustees, they wouldn't talk to you. Right. But you got sneaky, Theo, and you found this months old deleted episode of a podcast that Vassar appeared on where she kind of talks about this very thing. Right.
Alex:And she says something fascinating, and you wrote a good bit about this. Tell us about Yeah. What did you find in this podcast that you dug up?
Theo:Well, I think it's important to start with, one of these experts in in constitutional law told me that these situations, he worries personally that it could be used sort of politically, that people can say, you know, this is reason for governor Whitmer to, have the power to elect all trustees herself, you know, which is something that her office has discussed. And
Alex:That's sort of there's almost this national fear, I think, right now of, like, the overreach of some of these political figures into academia, into higher ed, Florida, you know, Pennsylvania, these states where you have these appointed boards. I think think Florida is a great example where all these boards are appointed. These presidents, Ben Sasse and whatnot, that are very controversial figures. And so I guess that is so this expert is saying this would be an example of sort of that kind of overreach making its way to Michigan. Right?
Theo:Right. Using this different board, you know, chaos to as reason for more government interference. Black Money Matters. It was deleted after, she appeared on it, but, we we had we have a recording, and she said something really interesting. Basically, she said, that governor Whitmer, this whole call for removal, it's all part of a political agenda to to do exactly what, these law experts kind of mentioned.
Theo:You know, make trustee positions appointment only, that the governor should have the power to appoint them. And using Vassar as sort of this example to do exactly that, and she went into the details of how exactly she supposed Whitmer had a role in this. So, you know, a little bit of context. You know, in October of 2023, Brianna Scott wrote this letter Another one
Alex:of the trustees Yeah. Kinda begins this with a letter saying, you know, raise
Theo:these allegations. Beginning the investigation, she claims that it wasn't even Scott who wrote it. Instead, it was, and this is a quote, Whitmer's best friend, and that would be a different trustee, Renee Knappe Jefferson. Right? So it's kind of this weird complicated thing, where there's a trustee on the board who was appointed by governor Whitmer, to fill an empty space back in 20 19, I believe?
Theo:18. 18. And they are friends. So so Jefferson and Whitmer, they lived together for a while. Whitmer officiated her wedding, all of these things.
Theo:Vassar claims that that she used this this friendship, as well as and she theorizes this. Jefferson's supposed resentment that she lost in the chair between Vassar, to get the board chair position.
Alex:So the the theory, if I'm following correctly, Whitmer wants more power to control higher ed. So, Whitmer taps her friend Right. Renee Knackett Jefferson, who lost to Vassar for chair of the board recently Mhmm. And has her write a letter or sort of ghostwrite a letter, which Brianna Scott then sends raising these allegations of misconduct, which Whitmer then uses as justification to remove trustees.
Theo:Beginning this whole
Alex:That's sort of the and I should say too that the the firm that we're talking about sort of investigated this theory. Maybe not the broader conspiracy, but just the idea that Jefferson and Nat Scott wrote the letter, and they, their finding was that there was no evidence to show that, Jefferson wrote the letter.
Theo:Right. Really, Vassar is the only, person at MSU kind of putting this theory out there as far as we know. The yes. So the firm investigated. They couldn't find any evidence that anybody but Scott wrote the letter.
Theo:You know, Jefferson provided a statement to me this morning actually and and said that, you know, again, it was not fueled at all by political means. There that's not a part of it.
Alex:But it will be interesting to see, you know, how Whitmer handles this. If she does wanna wade into these waters with, you know, this person who is so publicly her friend, you know, she officiated their her wedding, which there's a spread in the New York Times style section about with a lot of details about this year's long friendship between these two women and the couples and whatnot. You know, how will she kind of handle this politically when there's that sort of, dicey ethical element that Vassar seems very willing to talk about publicly. Yeah. Exactly.
Alex:Yeah. Well, I'm sure you'll stick with it, and you'll probably appear someday in the 19 09 in the future talking about it more. I assume yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for calling on the show.
Alex:It's always great to have you. Well, thank you, Alex. That's all for now, but we'll be back next week with fresh reporting from the great minds here at the state news. Until then, the stories we discussed and plenty more available at statenews.com. Thank you to my guests, Hannah and Theo, podcast editor, Anthony Brinson, video producer, Brad LaPlante, and most of all, thank you for listening.
Alex:For the 19 09, I'm Alex Walters.