Mission to Grow: A Small Business Guide to Cash, Compliance, and the War for Talent

How can small businesses with 1 to 15 employees avoid costly payroll errors, attract the right talent, and ensure compliance while building a strong company culture? In this week’s episode of Mission To Grow, host Mike Vannoy leads a panel discussion on essential HR practices for small businesses with 1 to 15 employees. Featuring insights from experts Jessica Small, Scott Petersen, and Mary Simmons, the conversation covers payroll accuracy, hiring strategies, compliance, employee engagement, and the importance of leveraging the right tools and systems. Tune in for actionable advice to streamline HR processes, foster employee satisfaction, and set your business up for success.

Takeaways:
  • Ensuring accurate data entry (e.g., social security numbers, birth dates) is crucial for avoiding payroll errors. Mistakes can lead to significant issues like delayed payments, misfiled taxes, and hefty penalties. 
  • Focus on defining and communicating your company's culture and values. This not only attracts the right talent but also ensures that new hires align with your vision.
  • Adhering to federal and state laws is not just about avoiding penalties but also about fostering employee trust and satisfaction. Compliance with regulations ensures a fair and transparent working environment.
  • A smooth and comprehensive onboarding process sets the tone for the employee experience. Use digital tools to minimize redundancy and ensure all necessary paperwork, like I-9 verification, is completed accurately and timely.
  • Use integrated systems for payroll, time tracking, and HR management to save time and reduce errors. These tools not only improve efficiency but also give you access to valuable data for better decision-making.
  • A well-crafted employee handbook is essential for setting clear expectations and providing a reference for both employees and employers. Consistency in policies helps avoid misunderstandings.
  • Get creative with benefits to attract and retain talent, especially if you can't offer extensive health benefits. Consider flexible work hours, pay cards, or on-demand pay options.

Quote of the Show:
  • " Give somebody the reason why they should work for you." - Mary Simmons

Links:

Ways to Tune In:
Podchaser: https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/mission-to-grow-a-small-busine-5591006 

Creators & Guests

Host
Mike Vannoy
Mike is a digital-first marketing executive with 25 years dedicated to helping HR companies thrive. As a board member of an AI software company and Chief Marketing Officer at Asure, he's been at the forefront of AI, HR compliance trends, and the changing demographics that shape today's marketplace. Under his leadership at Sales Engine Media, the company predominantly focused on the payroll, HR, and benefits industries, earning multiple spots on the Inc5000 list. Actively involved in multiple small businesses, Mike is a lifelong entrepreneur adept at navigating the changing workforce dynamics. He has held multiple executive roles at industry-leading HR firms, showcasing his expertise and leadership in the sector.

What is Mission to Grow: A Small Business Guide to Cash, Compliance, and the War for Talent?

Welcome to Mission to Grow, the podcast tailored for small business owners seeking practical insights, compliance-oriented content, and expert advice to navigate the complexities of HR and beyond. Hosted by Mike Vannoy, a seasoned business professional with a vision for rebranding and leveling up. Join us every Thursday as we delve into the world of compliance, productivity, and management strategies to empower owners and managers of midsize companies.

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Mike Vannoy: [00:00:00] If you're going to be in business, it's not if it's when there's going to be, there's going to be a lawsuit. There's going to be some enforcement activity. A disgruntled employee makes a complaint to a friend at dinner or a party. And I have an attorney who will take that case for free and you may have done nothing wrong.

But you're going to have to prove to a court or, uh, an insurance company that you did nothing wrong. And you're going to need data. And so it's not just that you need a system of record and audit trail, time, date, stamped of all these things that happen, ~uh, to, to, ~to make better decisions to run the business.

That's also true.~ It's probably more true as we get beyond 15 employees. And we'll talk about that in the, in the next few episodes,~ but. If you just start out having good data, good system of record that puts a time, date, stamp on everything you do, there's a pretty good cover your, you know, what, uh, to, to prove that you're doing things the right way when the time comes in, the time's going to come.

[00:01:00]

Mike Vannoy: The HR Roadmap for Growing Every Stage of Your Business. We got a special show today. This is the first in a series where we're going to unpack our ebook of the same title. HR Roadmap for Growing Your Business at Every Stage. Uh, if you think about it, if you're a small business just starting out, your needs for hiring people, for the talent, for the systems, the processes you need are very different than if you're a [00:02:00] large enterprise over 100, 150, 500 employees.

So we're going to, we're going to unpack this ebook. We invite you to hop on asuresoftware. com, uh, uh, hop on our resources page, download the ebook. You can follow along the four chapters and we'll do one episode each. Today is between one and 15 employees. Next week, we're going to take 16 to 49 employees.

The following week, 50 to 149 employees, then 150 to 500 plus. So we just want to make sure people understand. What it is you need from a payroll, from an HR, from an infrastructure, from a talent perspective, uh, at each of those phases to make sure that, you know, A, you're staying compliant, B, you understand the talent strategy that you need at these different levels.

We're going to make sure that you have the right infrastructure in place for that stage. We also want to make sure that you're controlling costs. You're not overbuilding unnecessarily. There's, there's a, there's sequencing to some of the things that you need to do as you make a growth plan, uh, [00:03:00] for your talent strategy and all the compliance requirements that come with that.

So, uh, got a star studded, uh, uh, guests, uh, uh, to help me unpack this today. Uh, Jessica Small, she's vice president of payroll operations for Assure. Uh, 17 years in the payroll business. She and her team work with, uh, small business owners, uh, processing payroll and all that comes with that, the setting up of employees, the, the compliance requirements for exempt, non exempt benefits, deductions, et cetera.

Uh, so we're going to really rely on Jessica's expertise today. Scott Petersen, 25 years in the industry. He's vice president general manager for HireClick. That is an Asure company. Uh, Scott's also founder of that business. Uh, his, he, he brings a fresh perspective here today because he spent the last several years building his company on the recruiting side.

How do you find the talent? How do you, how do you get the right people on the bus, [00:04:00] uh, to, to really help you grow your business? And if you watch the show regularly, of course, you know, Mary Simmons, our vice president of HR compliance, we're going to, we're going to wink, wink, nudge, nudge, and say, she's only got 25 years experience, but.

But, uh, she's cause she started doing this when she was like 14 years old. But, uh, Mary brings just a ton of experience. Uh, really I'd say to every facet of HR from, uh, including the payroll, the, in the FLSA compliance stuff, uh, all the way through, uh, a talent strategy. So, uh, uh, let, let, let's begin. I, there's a few categories in the ebook that I really just want to spend some time unpacking here.

So if I'm a, maybe I'm a new company, um, and I'm hiring employee number one, maybe I'm a small business owner that I have. Maybe I want it to be a small business. Maybe I want it to, maybe I'm currently a small business, but I'm trying to grow. There are certain things that small businesses and we, and we've decided to classify this [00:05:00] between one and 15 employees that you just need to know.

Um, Jessica, I, I'm going to start with you since it's so payroll centric that the topic and the chapter number one, we take in this, in this ebook was getting payroll, right? If I'm a small business owner, one to 15 employees, what are the things that I need to be thinking about to get payroll? Right.

Jessica Small: So that's a loaded question. Um, and for companies of that size, whether you have one employee or you're, you know, kind of finding your footing and growing, oftentimes those companies are really running lean and mean. So we see a lot of folks who are trying to run their business, who are also wearing the hat of the payroll admin internally.

They're worried about taxes, benefits, um, and just really diligently trying to keep all the plates that they're juggling in the air. Uh, same thing with their talent. You know, those folks are likely, um, you know, breaking their backs, working extra hours, um, teams in [00:06:00] this stage are, you know, going to need a lot of heart and a ton of grit.

And so hiring the right people, um, is a big, big aspect to that. And I know Mary and Scott both have a lot of passion around that topic. Um, but when it comes to payroll, my Biggest piece of feedback to small business owners is, you know, really focus hard on the data integrity, um, of what you're using to be able to process payroll taxes and, and invest in technology early on, with all that these folks are juggling, it's also tremendously hard to stay up to snuff with all of the things that are changing pretty constantly, um, not only in their business landscape, but in the market, in federal and state compliance, uh, there's been more legislation change in the last, you know, couple of years than we've seen in decades before. Um, so. [00:07:00] Helping to stay compliant in streamlined processes, creating an audit trail.

Those are all things that, you know, make technology a really big piece of success.

Mike Vannoy: Yes. I'm I'm going to, I'm going to drill in on something you said. So you said like, I know what you mean. Cause you know, when we think, you know, work for a software company, we know what you mean when you say be focused on data integrity, if I'm the small business owner, I own a landscaping company. I own a hair salon.

I own a restaurant. I own a small tool and dye shop. What, what, what does data integrity mean? As it relates to payroll. And why is that so important?

Jessica Small: So, even something as simple as the correct social security number or the accuracy of a date of birth. Um, you know, now more than ever, folks want to invest in retirement plans. Many states are actually mandating that retirement plans be offered. Um, and a lot of times, there are specific limitations or [00:08:00] maximums that, you know, an individual can contribute based on their age.

Um, but even going back to the example of, you know, a valid social security number, how sucky is it to have an employee come to you and they're trying to file their taxes and say. Uh, this is off by a digit, um, and I would even say, you know, beyond, uh, going back to kind of that, that software piece. Giving your employees the ability to use technology and software to manage their own data.

When you're trying to run a business, um, one of the most powerful ways to give, you know, control back to yourself is to open up that control to your employees. Managing, um, you know, direct deposit information. We see a lot of times, um, you know, folks are sending in, you know, hey, I want to change from, you know, this checking account to another or maybe to a pay card.

Um, those are becoming a lot more popular. But every time there's a handoff of information, there's certainly more [00:09:00] risk of a keying error, something getting misconstrued or mistranslated that then either causes a delay. Or an inaccuracy that down the line, you know, causes stress to the employee as well as to the employer.

Mike Vannoy: Can you give an example of what, what, if you don't have good data integrity, um, uh, the social security number being off, uh, uh, one digit off in a bank account number or routing number, uh, someone's address being, uh, out of date cause they moved. What are some of the downstream consequences? So, I mean, I just know how stressful it is running a business.

Uh, and, and we'll get to, to, to hiring in a second with Scott. Um, the war for talent is very, very real. There's a labor shortage, uh, that many of us feel. Um, man, sometimes the next warm body that steps in the door, you're going to give, you're going to, you're going to hand them a work apron and put them, put them to work.

Right. And so it's easy to kind of miss [00:10:00] some of these things. Why should the business owner care so much about getting it right at first?

Jessica Small: yeah, there's a number of downstream effects that could occur all to varying degrees of severity. But if you think about it, especially when you're starting out in this size of a business. You got to think about it takes one mistake to stick with an employee. Two is unbearable. And when you've got 60 percent of Americans living paycheck to paycheck, you know, an issue with a direct deposit, um, could mean, you know, somebody walking out the door.

You think about a restaurant business, you know, servers are relying on their tips and, you know, that small paycheck that they might be getting to offset some of that. Bye. Time is not somebody's luxury in those cases. We're quite literally dealing with the ability for someone to put food on their table or pay their [00:11:00] rent.

Um, you know, and it's, it's not an easy conversation. And, you know, the complexity of an instance where maybe that one digit in a bank account becomes the money going to the wrong account, not even getting a rejection. Because the account doesn't exist, but having money that's their pay going into somebody else's account, that's a lot harder.

To recuperate. Um, and that could take, you know, days and banking partners and precious hours away from that employer running their business, but that is a big, big thing for an employee to have to deal with. It's, it's hard to recover from that, you know, and people do leave because people can't get payroll right.

If you think about it, it's one of the things that we expect, you know, we're walking in the door, giving our all every day. Um, you know, the, the prize at the end is that compensation and, you know, the value that you feel in the work that you, you've contributed to.

Mike Vannoy: Mary, I want you to jump in here [00:12:00] cause a lot of, a lot of data integrity starts with process upfront in the hiring process, but what should, what should business owners be thinking about when it comes to the onboarding process to make sure that they get good data integrity at the front end, that it's not relying on, uh, the employee fat fingering something, or you the employer fat fingering and mis entering someone's information, or you didn't ask a question that you know, that you didn't even know you should have, what's your advice on the front end of all this process?

Mary Simmons: Yeah. So, you know, talking about payroll, I reiterate everything that Jess is saying. Um, you know, when we bring people onto our organization, their paycheck is, You know, the biggest reason that they're there. So if we get that wrong, um, we're probably not going to keep employees very long. And using good, uh, systems is going to be [00:13:00] key to keeping that data integrity.

Um, and then when we talk about the onboarding process, we have to make sure that we have a process that is not only compliant, but that process is also in tune with our organization, right? So, when are we asking for the information from each of the employees? How is that getting translated into the onboarding process?

the payroll system, and is there checks and balances? And for those small employers, all of that can be overwhelming, right? We might have some small employers listening right now going, okay, I'm out. I need help. Um, and that's understandable because there is so many pieces to it. Um, but I would say that having a process, Making sure that process is compliant and making sure that it is in tune to the organization itself.

How many people do I have? How many checks and balances do I have to make sure, uh, [00:14:00] as Jess said, that that data is correct.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah.

Mary Simmons: Very important.

Mike Vannoy: Just one last thing that I'm gonna ask you, and then I'm gonna move on to, to hiring. Um, the, the, the example you started with was a social security number being wrong. What are just, what are the ways? being off by one digit could impact an employee getting paid or taxes being filed correctly, or getting a W 2.

I'm kind of leading the witness here. What, what, what, what bad things happen when a social security number goes wrong and, and how does that impact both employee and the employer?

Jessica Small: yeah, there's, you know, and I, I think that's a big. I think that's a really important reason why small employers need more help than ever, or really any employer. When it comes to taxes, that's one of the most complex aspects of payroll. There's a lot of moving parts. So, you know, going with that simple example of, you know, one digit [00:15:00] off.

You know, we'd file a W 2 and it would be wrong. It'd need to be amended. That comes with a cost to the employer. You know, hopefully that W 2 has the right wages, but if something as simple as, you know, a deduction code isn't accurate, um, That could make or break, you know, the ability for somebody to be able to file their taxes timely, you know, taxes all come with deadlines and we see employers of all different sizes penalized, you know, a lot of hefty penalties coming through for issues with.

With, you know, simple stuff, you know, you missed a tax, a local, um, social security number was off, or you paid an employee as a 1099 instead of W 2 or vice versa. Those are all real challenges, um, that become very problematic really quickly, um, that then lead to really costly fines. Um, I think if [00:16:00] we, you know, reference the, the ebook for a second, something like one out of three small businesses.

is penalized by the IRS for payroll or tax errors every year, and that's something to the tune of 4. 5 billion dollars. That is an alarming statistic, and in my opinion, um, to be one in three or have the potential to be one in three is crazy. Um, you know, and just being an employee myself, I, I want, I usually am not getting, you know, a hefty refund, but going back to those folks who are living paycheck to paycheck, some people are relying on those tax refunds and the timeliness of being able to file their taxes.

You know, the pay for their, their kid's tuition, you know, Christmas presents next year, whatever you may be. But, um, it, it, it all depends on the situation, but it's definitely one thing that causes, I would say the most stress, both for a client and employee, because it's a lot of hoops to jump through.

Mike Vannoy: [00:17:00] Yeah. I, I would just maybe paint a picture for the use case here and then we'll move on to recruiting and hiring. Um, Imagine the employee started middle of the year, they filled out whatever paperwork and they believe that they probably, they probably believe they filled out the paperwork correctly.

Could have been electronic, could have been paper and pen. Um, They get paid all through the year. Payroll is accurate. Great. Uh, you get, they get their W 2, they are counting on a, you know, let's say that they're living a little more on the edge and they're in the lower, uh, end of the income spectrum, they're expecting a return.

They need the return to, to feed their family. They go to file taxes, uh, and, uh, it comes back that can't, can't file wrong social security number off by a digit. So then the process is what they got to go back to their employer. They, they aren't thinking that they made the mistake. They're thinking that their boss made the mistake, right?

[00:18:00] So you're, you're going to get a tarnished reputation. It's going to take you time to work with whether, whether it's your accountant, whether it's your payroll company. And I hate to say it, it's not their fault. If you entered it wrong or the employee entered it wrong. Now it's taking your time, your expense.

The employee has to wait. The employee blames you for all of it. And meanwhile, they're trying to feed their family. It's just ugly. And it all starts with data integrity. So that's great. We can keep going on that one, but I want, I want to move on. Scott, I want to pull you in here. So the, the topic number two, we talked about in the, in this ebook for the, how to, the HR processes you need to understand when growing your business, uh, one to 15 employees. There's a process we can talk about when it comes to hiring, but perhaps there is no greater time to focus on the type of person you're trying to bring on, hire number one, that, that, that one to 15, this is where you are establishing the culture. [00:19:00] This is where you are establishing the kind of people that you're going to bring in to your mission, who you're bringing into this foxhole to fight this fight.

in, in, in, in, in build something special. Why is hiring so important in this one to 15 stage?

Scott Petersen: Good question. Um, obviously this is a huge challenge for every stage of company, but particularly the small, the smaller company. Um, I believe one of the reasons why it's difficult is you don't typically have that, that, you know, that, that marketing department that's bringing you through that exercise of who are you as an employer?

Um, What, what do you stand for? What is your culture like? And a lot of employers just, just quite honestly, don't think about that prior to just posting freely out on job boards. And they're just going to, you know, take the candidates that, that come in. I think your point is a really, really good one. Um, if you have [00:20:00] 10 employees and two of them are not culture fits, um, that's 20 percent of your workforce that becomes really, really expensive to the organization.

Um, So, um, you know, I, I always, as it relates to hiring, I always say that, that if you flip it and you say, what is your opportunity as a small employer, it's, if you do those things and you kind of do a little bit of soul searching, help to the, to kind of put parameters around who are we as, as an, as an employer, it allows you to go compete.

Um, by using technology and, and, and sort of thinking through that process before you get in it, it allows you to compete with really any employer of any size in the market. You know, how often as a 10 person, say medical clinic, could you compete head to head with a hospital in the same town, um, for that same employee?

By having that, that, [00:21:00] that kind of culture statement by, by using technology to get out and distribute onto the major job boards. By reinforcing that message on your career site, it really allows you. to represent yourself in a way that looks competitive to any type of candidate.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah. Mary, people, small business owners, they work their faces off trying to, I just, it's so hard because you're the individual contributor. You're the, you're the, you're the payroll clerk, uh, on, on Monday nights when the kids go to bed. You're the janitor, you're the lawyer, you're the, you're, you're the, the, the, the, the technical specialist.

Um, you, you wear many, many hats. And if you're on the restaurant, you care very much about your brand and your reputation. If you're the landscaper, you care very much about what the community thinks about the kind of service you provide. Um, people don't think about employment brand. [00:22:00] Um, and. They're so eager and so needy to put a warm body in to do the job.

Sometimes they don't think about what's the culture that I want to build on my first couple of hires. Share your thoughts and why this is so important,

Mary Simmons: Yeah. And I'm going to break it down a little bit more. And I loved everything that Scott said, of course, but the employment brand is important, but maybe those words sound a little bit confusing to a small employer. So, so what we try to say when we're working with them is just give somebody the reason why they should work for you.

So, you know, get out of the mentality of help wanted. right, and the assumption that the candidate would be lucky to work for you. Well, they may, but they can't read your mind, Mr. Business Owner, so tell us the why, right? And that's what the [00:23:00] employment brand should do. It should tell the candidate why they should work for that, organization.

And, Listen, if we take it back to any product that we buy, their marketing is doing that for us. It's the same thing. You're vying your spot, right? You're vying for your spot in that organization, so they have to say the why. I would say the other piece that, um, The employers we work with often get wrong, and again, they're just doing too many things.

This isn't their expertise. It's Scott and my expertise, right? Uh, we had an employer with a really high turnover rate. Um, and when we got in there, we were like, Okay, let, let's take this in pieces. And the first piece we started with is what are the expectations you're setting on the ads that you're placing out there?

And they definitely had that help [00:24:00] wanted mentality, right? So it was a very bland ad, uh, obviously no employment branding, but also there was no clear expectations. So what was happening is they were bringing people on and the people they were bringing on Uh, didn't have the correct expectations. So there was a breakdown very fast of what they thought they needed to do, what they were asked to do.

And of course, it's always multifaceted and it definitely has, there's more pieces to that that we help the employer with. But those two things really jumped out at me. Did you tell your candidates why they should work with you, which is going to help with your culture fit? right? Because if they say it's a family oriented organization and just says, Yeah, but I'm single and I'm having fun.

I don't want to join a family organization. They're going to self select out and maybe that wouldn't have worked out [00:25:00] anyway. And you also want to set those expectations. So I think those are two things that employers really want to stay in tune with.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah, that's really good advice, Scott. There's a, there's another side of this coin. So the, I think that I think often missed is the strategic side, which we just kind of talked about. Why you should be really obsessed with culture. Why you should be explaining what's the, why, uh, people should join your business and, and, and figure out that mission.

Um, there's also just the tactical side of figuring out how to hire people. Um, you know, maybe if you're in a high traffic area, you can do like, you know, circa 1955, put the help wanted sign out in front and hope for the best. Um, It's not that long ago that there were more working Americans than there were jobs and the employer had all the power in this dynamic, right?

Uh, you could put out an ad, whether it's, you know, going [00:26:00] back enough years into the paper or online, uh, more modern. You put it on the job board and you probably have more. Uh, applicants than you could even get through kind of the, the nature of your business, this ATS applicant tracking system. Uh, I think the origin of these ATS vendors was how do you, how do you separate the wheat from the chaff?

There's so many applicants. I need software to help narrow this down. Well, today it's kind of flipped, right? There there's more. There's more jobs than there are people. It's not about separating the wheat from the chaff. It's trying to, trying to find any wheat or chaff at all, because you don't get people applying.

How should small businesses that are, I'll say, not as experienced at finding the talent that they need. How do they go about finding the people to actually fill jobs one through 15?

Scott Petersen: Yeah. To your point, it's changed a ton. I mean, it's 180 degree change [00:27:00] from say, 10 years ago, right? Um, you know, I think the biggest thing, Mary, you, you hit on the word expectations and the expectations of all small business owners should be aligned to hiring quality workers is difficult. Okay, it's challenging.

You need to be prepared and you need to approach it much like selling or marketing. Okay, and you really need to look at it like hiring is very, very much a selling or marketing function. As much as it is an HR function. And, um, much like the principles of marketing, we just talked about culture and, and, and that would probably be the crafting of a message in that, in that advertising realm, you gotta, you gotta build that message.

The next thing is, is, you know, we get asked all the time, what job board should I be on? Um, where should I have my message? And my answer is always the [00:28:00] same. It's everywhere. I mean, go, go everywhere that you can without breaking, breaking the bank. Right. And there's gotta be a, you know, sort of a monetary.

Um, you know, um, guidelines or parameters on that. You can't pay to be everywhere, but I think it's important to look at and, and, um, the idea of a linear path from a job seekers, you know, searching, finding a job on a major job board, seeing that job, applying, and just waiting for that employer is not very realistic, usually it's not quite that linear.

It's I found the job opening. Um, it looked moderately interesting. I'm going to go do a Google search. I'm going to go to that client's website. I'm going to learn about who they are as an employer. Um, I might talk to friends, relatives, et cetera, people in the community. What do you know about this company?

And so forth. It gets back to the point. [00:29:00] You've got to have that well crafted message everywhere, and you've got to be consistent with the message, much like selling new product, much like, you know, just marketing your business, it's so important to have that transparency and be everywhere that you can be consistent with the message.

Ultimately leading them to the point of conversion and saying, I want to be considered for the job.

Mike Vannoy: You know, that's so important, Mary. You're going to have to plug your ears for this one. Uh, I mean, the reality is the employees are, are cyberstalking you and employers are cyberstalking the employees as well. It's like, this isn't just you interviewing them and you going out to their, see if you can find them in Facebook and LinkedIn and, and seeing if you get some, uh, you know, see them, you know, doing whatever that you wouldn't approve of.

Uh, and therefore you disqualify. They're doing the same damn thing to you. They're looking you up on Facebook. They're looking you up in LinkedIn and yes, they're looking at your website, [00:30:00] which is probably the aspirational version of you, but what's the rest of your social media presence telling them you're they're interviewing you as much as you're interviewing them, right?

Unemployment was, uh, it peaked at 10 percent in the 2008 recession. Last year we hovered in the high threes average about 3. 7. I think we're sitting at. It's near full, full employment, still at a 4. 2 percent unemployment. They're absolutely interviewing you as much as you're interviewing them. Mary, anything else you'd want to piggyback?

Cause I want, I want Jess's thoughts on let's go, let's get really practical when we hire people, what's, what's the payroll processing and what's the system of record impact here?

Mary Simmons: I'll just add one quick thing that we started this conversation with. Why, why is it hard sometimes for that smaller employer to find people? And we hopefully are giving some suggestions to make it easier, but one of the biggest issues is the, um, you know, lack of a [00:31:00] robust benefits offering. Um, and when I say benefits, I mean, Holistically, you know, you know, are, you know, how much time off, you know, total comp.

And so I, what I, all I would say to employers is the one thing that you really need to do is get creative. There's plenty of free offerings. And I know Jess mentioned some as well. a pay card. I put that in an ad. If I don't have a ton of benefits that I'm listing on my ad, that might be the one thing, you know, that, that makes that employee come over to you, right?

If you have, you know, uh, pay that on demand pay, that could be the one thing. So employers need to, Free parking. Need to think of the benefits that they have. If they're a 10 employee, um, organization, they might not have health care. [00:32:00] That's okay. Um, find the things that resonate with the candidates that are out there and get creative.

You can do free lunch and learns. You can, there's plenty of things that you can give that are low or no cost that'll still attract the right candidates to your organization,

Mike Vannoy: the, I think the ebook rightly starts out saying, Hey, when you're, you're one to 15 employees, you're, you're, you're a small growing business. You got to get payroll, right? It's like the most important thing. It seems self evident, right? If you don't pick, you're not paying your people, right?

They're not going to stay. I mean, that's just so I'm thinking Maslow's laws of hierarchy. That's just so base, right? I mean, you got to pay your people, right? Um, getting a hiring, right. Um, What, where are the, where are the, let me ask you this, where are the biggest mistakes that you see small business owners, small businesses make administratively since you, since [00:33:00] you deal with like the transactions in payroll systems, uh, where do you see the biggest mistakes when it comes to the hiring process?

Jessica Small: I think some of the biggest mistakes come down to what Mary was talking about before. A lot of breakdowns in process flow can lead to delays in information, inaccuracy in data, those types of things. You know, you could be living in a world where you, you know, decided to hire someone who just hit your, you know, requisition.

And tomorrow you want them to start, you know, some people are, are in that place where they need talent right now. And if they're ready, let's get them going. Um, but there's, you know, steps in between that need to happen to make sure that someone can actually get paid. Um, you know, and that's a small window of time.

So, you know, even employment verification and getting things like the I [00:34:00] 9 done. Mary, how many times do you see people say, What do you mean they can't work? Um, I have to have this I 9 done. Um, you know, that's really critical. It's got to be done before you really even start paying an employee. And that's a very costly mistake that some folks fall victim to.

Um, just right out of the gate.

Mike Vannoy: Mary, I'm going to go to you for the, for the, for the next section. So, two parts of the, of the ebook. It's HR priorities. What are your HR priorities at this stage? I mean, I'm going to say it's the first two things we talked about. It's you got to pay your people, right? And you got to get hired, right? You know, from, from, uh, finding the talent to getting the right culture, man, if you get those two things, right, you're off to a really good start. my sense is that most business owners and entrepreneurs at this stage, they don't know what they don't know. They have probably have a sense that they're, maybe they're breaking laws. They [00:35:00] don't even know exists that may, and maybe not breaking laws, but not doing things the HR way that they quote unquote should, uh, and they're kind of just white knuckling it in their business.

What, what, what are the biggest HR priorities that beyond paying right and hiring right, that you think businesses at this stage need to be thinking about?

Mary Simmons: So that's, that's at the beginning of the employment relationship is we're going to hire them. So that has to go right. We talked about that. And then we need to pay them right. But the other pieces are, and we, we talk about compliance all the time, I'm going to shift that vernacular over to, um, a well functioning, uh, HR, um, department, if you will.

Whether the business owner is operating it or they have some assistance, you can't forget about the employees once they come on. So, what are you doing to engage those employees? And I would [00:36:00] say that very often compliance and staying compliant engages your employees. Let me give you an example. So, talking to an employer the other day and they're very frustrated that, um, they had a really good employee leave.

And I said, well, let's, let's talk about it. First of all, happy to do an exit interview so that I can get that data for you, but let's talk it through. What are some of the things they said to you? And they mentioned the CMO. lack of benefits. Well, this employer happened to be in New Jersey and didn't realize that being a New Jersey employer, that there was about five benefits, that they were not offering to their employees.

Yes, some of it was a cost to the employer, but some of it was paid through New Jersey. So this is a huge, you know, a huge [00:37:00] misunderstanding. And when I have a state that doesn't have a ton of employment laws, um, a lot of times the employers completely ignore compliance. That's not fair to your employees.

And it's also going to get you some fines. It's going to hurt you. And I would say that, so I guess I'm making the argument here that staying compliant helps engage your employees so you can bring on the right employees. You can pay them right, but if you're not continually engaging them, training them, giving them extra responsibilities, uh, the, continuing to set and reinforce expectations and help them do their job better.

You don't have a productive workforce and you're not going to retain people.

Mike Vannoy: So compliance. I think it's fair to [00:38:00] say most small business owners aren't intentionally breaking the law. If they are, maybe it's they know they're playing in the gray area, they're driving 56 kind of a thing, but I don't think there's a bunch of people out there intentionally breaking laws, intentionally discriminating against employees.

Um, obviously this is what your team does. Uh, and this is how, uh, sure helps small businesses at this stage. What are just some of the basic things that business owners can and should be doing? Uh, and I'm thinking things like job descriptions and handbooks. So there's, you know, uh, and I know where your brain's going.

Um, what does, what are some of the basic things that employers should be doing to, to at least help? In the area of compliance when they don't know what they don't know.

Mary Simmons: Yeah. And since you mentioned handbook, I'm going to jump on handbook, um, as you knew I would. And it's not mandated by any state. [00:39:00] That being said, there's, um, A lot of states that have policies that have to, um, be given to the employee physically. Um, so that's helpful. But I always tell business owners, your handbook is going to save you a lot of time.

Even if I'm an employer and the three of you are my employees, if I don't have a handbook, Scott's going to ask me on Monday, I'm How many days, how many vacation days he gets. Jessica is going to ask me on Tuesday, are we off Thursday? Um, you know, for, for the holiday and Mike, you're going to ask me something else.

If I have a handbook, it's going to help. As a small employer, number one, keep you compliant, but number two, save you time and help engage your employees. They should have a place to look that makes it easy for them, as well as yourself, um, and keeps you [00:40:00] consistent in offering the benefits that you offer.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah.

Mary Simmons: So, the handbook to me is just, um, A basic thing that every employer, even, like I said, if I have only the four of us as employees, that you need to have.

Mike Vannoy: ahead,

Jessica Small: I was just going to say, I wholeheartedly agree with what you just said. Um, having some policy to reference is also really critical, um, to accuracy of payroll, and I'll give a shameless plug for software again, but if you think about it, you know, keeping track of employees time. or how much time they've taken or making sure that you're giving them the right allotment of mandated state sick time.

Those are all things that become very challenging to keep up with if you're doing it manually. Um, so that's another aspect of, you know, the handbook should be able to easily translate into, you know, how people are paid [00:41:00] for overtime and what your shift schedule looks like, um, your expectations for PTO.

And then when you talk about maximizing efficiency and accuracy, um, you know, using a time tracking tool is infinitely beneficial to any employer. Um, not only is it going to help with accuracy, but time fraud is one of the biggest problems that small businesses face because it is just so hard to You know, to shuffle around those manual timesheets that are, you know, written on a napkin or out in the field, collect them and make sense of it.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's go there. I'm going to come back to challenges then. Um, one of the areas in the ebook that we unpack in this area is that is what, what, What HR tools, uh, and, uh, I think that can cover a broad definition here. Uh, certainly we'll talk about software and different platforms, but I [00:42:00] think, I think a handbook is a tool, right?

I think a performance management process is a tool. So let's, let's start at the beginning. Uh, and this isn't a pitch for anything. Sure. This is, this is just helpful information for business owners. Scott, at the, at the front of the process, what are the tools that, uh, business owners need, uh, and obviously it plays in your area of higher click, but what are the tools that business owners need to be able to begin the hiring process and, and where does that take us through, uh, into say a payroll HR system?

Scott Petersen: Yeah, good question. So obviously, you know, hiring is about the things that we've already talked about, defining who you are, getting that messaging out, particularly out on to, you know, really well trafficked job boards. So it comes down to what is that job posting? That we are going to [00:43:00] carefully craft and put out in front of many, many, many job seekers.

Okay. Um, there are tools, um, with HireClick, um, and, and others that really help you through that process of finding out, you know, maybe it's the first time I've hired for, um, And accounts receivable clerk. I don't really know how to sort of frame that up in a, in a job write up or a job advertisement, much less a full job description.

Okay. And there is a difference there, but if we're talking about just purely the hiring process, we have an AI generated job. Um, posting tool where you can put in, you know, very, very simple inputs and, um, get back versions of, of that particular job posting that are written for a couple of different reasons.

Number one, it's written to be very, um, persuasive, it's written to be concise, and it's written in a way that it should help. to [00:44:00] frame up why you are, maybe why, what's unique about you as an employer if you have that information out on your career site. Okay. So that's sort of the job distribution piece.

And then obviously when it comes to, um, you know, viewing candidates, rating candidates, sharing those candidates with other, um, you know, maybe stakeholders in the hiring, uh, funnel and so forth, it used to be prior to using hiring systems. That these were all stuck in email folders or they were printouts that some, some people maybe dropped off at your business.

Um, a hiring system or an ATS like HireClick does make it very, very easy to handle repetitive tasks of organizing, bringing others into the process, inviting, qualified applicants in for interviews and that entire hiring process. So from a tools standpoint, um, all of those tools right now, whether you're hiring 2 people a year or 25 [00:45:00] people a year.

well, well worth the investment, um, to make sure that it's done properly and to make sure that you can make use of those, um, the tools that are there to not only get applicants in the door, in the door, but make those applicants feel good through the process.

Mike Vannoy: So I think probably most business owners know that there's job boards. Job boards is a tool. Uh, most people know the chat GPTs, Geminis, Copilots to help them write. Um, I think a lot of people probably don't realize there are tools, there are software, uh, that can A, help do all that for you, but maybe more importantly, manage the employee application experience.

So that they feel great about it and make you more efficient in the evaluation of those. And that's these, this category of applicant tracking software. Um, let's, let's, I think where, where an applicant tracking system leaves off is kind of where a payroll [00:46:00] and HR system picks up. Um, Uh, probably nobody listening today, uh, that isn't aware with payroll systems, whether you're using QuickBooks or your accountant is doing it for you, or you're using, you know, uh, a payroll service provider, but from a tools perspective, Jess, how should a business owner be thinking?

What, what tools should I have in my process? So I've started with job boards in posting. And an applicant tracking tool that my new hires then feed. What, what systems should they be feeding in, you know, especially where you started this whole conversation around data integrity.

Jessica Small: you know, a seamless onboarding process, and I know Mary's team deals a lot with this. Not only is a critical aspect of the employee experience, because you want them to start off on the right foot. You don't want there to be a ton of redundancy. Who loves to fill out a form 7 [00:47:00] times for the same exact thing to, you know, get to.

A couple of different places, um, you know, so. Taking information from, you know, the applicant. Piece into the onboarding piece and then transitioning all of that seamlessly to be able to start paying them. Um, it is instrumental to the seamlessness of the employee experience, but also the accuracy of any output thereafter, whether it's benefit eligibility, you know, because a lot of that data is going to drive, you know, what they're eligible for based on.

What's their hire date? Um, you know, what's their birth date? Are they married or single? Um, you know, just simple things like your tax election. You want to get that right, right out of the gate. Um, you know, pay rates. Anything that's agreed upon in that initial offer. Those are all things that, you know, instead of having to piecemeal that together, a really strong [00:48:00] onboarding process and a system to support that makes all the difference, um, in effort and in time savings.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah. Great. Mary. Look, so let's keep, let's keep going down this continuum. We started at the front end of the employee experience. What, what systems and tools does an employer need to be thinking about small business owners, especially. Who might not have, you know, an IT department, you know, uh, how should they be thinking about tools to stay compliant that layer on to this in, in, in, in help that manage that entire employee lifecycle.

Mary Simmons: So I, I first just wanna generalize and, and help everybody understand the benefits of the technology that First Scott talked about and then what Jessica talked about. So the technologies that we're talking about here produce data. They, without data. [00:49:00] A small employer or a large employer is just guessing, right?

So when I go back to my example of the employer that had a high turnover, when we asked why do you think you have a high turnover, she said the applicant pool is just terrible. We're like, The entire applicant pool, the entire area you live in, um, that might not be accurate. So, so let's keep digging. And so we needed data, right?

And that data is going to drive more informed decisions for that employer. And I would also just say, that it also saves time. And for a small business owner, time directly relates to money, right? Because they have so little of it. They need 25 hours in a day, not 24 hours in a day. So we need to utilize these technologies and these tools.

Now on the HR side, [00:50:00] obviously I'm going to leverage, um, an ATS tool. system, uh, saves time, saves money, more accurate. You look like a bigger employer when you're using an applicant tracking system because within that system is also going to be, um, some professional Pieces that wouldn't be there if you were just throwing an ad up on Indeed.

So I would argue worth every penny, um, for sure. And then on the payroll side, it's the same thing. You look like a more professional organization. It absolutely saves you time. Um, we just brought a new employer on who was paying everybody by check. I know everybody's cringing, but just sending checks. to the employees to pay them.

Um, and then of course somebody said, Wait a minute. I'm not paying any tax. Shouldn't I be paying tax? These are employees, not [00:51:00] 1099s. So, you know, the technology is there to help, um, save time and save money. On the HR side, one piece of technology that, I like to, to leverage with employers is a learning management system.

So when we talk about, uh, bringing new employees on, we can have all the bells and whistles. We can write a beautiful, beautiful ad and, and utilize the technology. If they come in for an interview, um, and the interviewer isn't trained properly, uh, A, CMO, CMO, CMO, CMO, CMO, CMO, CMO. We could leave ourselves very liable to lawsuits, believe it or not.

There are people just going on interviews to sue people for asking wrong questions. But more importantly, are we asking those open ended questions, uh, and questions that will help us choose the right candidate? [00:52:00] and give expectations to the candidate so they self select out if they're not right. So, love a learning management system to help with all of the items, um, within a business from filling out that I 9 to doing management training and interview training.

Mike Vannoy: I would maybe add one layer on top of everything. This is great. I appreciate it guys. When you use tools, AKA software, you're collecting data. It's where you started out, Mary. And what you end up with is a system of record. Um, and maybe even if you don't have a single system of record, maybe you have an applicant tracking system front end, and maybe you don't have it perfectly integrated into a payroll system, the layers into HR with a learning management system. If you're going to be in business, it's not if it's when there's going to be, there's going to be a lawsuit. There's going to be some enforcement activity. [00:53:00] A disgruntled employee makes a complaint to a friend at dinner or a party. And I have an attorney who will take that case for free and you may have done nothing wrong.

But you're going to have to prove to a court or, uh, an insurance company that you did nothing wrong. And you're going to need data. And so it's not just that you need a system of record and audit trail, time, date, stamped of all these things that happen, uh, to, to, to make better decisions to run the business.

That's also true. It's probably more true as we get beyond 15 employees. And we'll talk about that in the, in the next few episodes, but. If you just start out having good data, good system of record that puts a time, date, stamp on everything you do, there's a pretty good cover your, you know, what, uh, to, to prove that you're doing things the right way when the time comes in, the time's going to come.

Anything else you'd want to put on that, Mary, before, from [00:54:00] a, from compliance?

Mary Simmons: That was perfectly said.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah. All right. Um, let's, let's, let's close with this. I want to hear from each of your perspectives. Cause each of you guys come at this from a unique perspective, Mary, from, from an HR standpoint, which covers talent management, it covers components, covers lots of things.

Uh, Scott, From a, a career building tools to help people find the right talent. Jess, from making sure people just simply get paid correctly. Something that sounds so simple. There's so much to it. What's your one piece of parting advice for businesses in this one to 15 employee range, uh, what they really need to get right in your area of expertise?

Scott Petersen: I don't know who was first at that, but I'll, I'll, I'll take a Apparently it's you, Scott. Thank

Okay. Um, you know, to, to me, it's, it's all about experience. Um, we're in a competitive landscape, um, as business owners to go find [00:55:00] quality, Employees. Okay. We talked about the challenges there. And to me, it really comes down to putting your best foot forward.

Um, in, in the full experience from the first time that that candidate hears about a job opening, reads about your company, um, comes in for an interview, um, hopefully is hired, is onboarded, is starting to be paid. To me, that is all experience. Okay. And, um, um, just like you could approach that and say, Boy, that's, that's, that's weighty.

You know, that, that there's a lot of, you know, risk in that. I also say there's a ton of opportunity in that. And I think as small businesses, we, we at times have inferiority complexes that we can't possibly do that as good as all the really large employers, and I completely disagree. You can control that process if you think through it, and you can have just the opposite effect.

You can really impress the heck out of that [00:56:00] great candidate that you bring in with a little, with a little thought into it.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah, I agree. Jess, how about you?

Jessica Small: I would say don't Till a problem surfaces to seek support. I think in just the nature of doing business, there's so much risk and so much to consider. you know, I think Mary said it best, money is one of the biggest focal points when you're starting off in that journey.

but time is very scarce. I think a lot of, um, you know, business owners maybe assume that that expense of a tool or partnering with a CPA or somebody who has just a little bit more experience in navigating all of those regulations and how to apply, you know, those things to get the right outcomes and have that audit trail.

Um, you know, it, tends to bite people in, the behind. So, [00:57:00] saving that money on the onset might not, you know, always be the best decision, and a lot of folks, I think, even in Mary's experience, will say, I wish I had just known. I wish I had somebody to go to that could have just told me. Um, cause like you said, Mike, no one's out there, you know, or we assume no one's out there actively trying to do the wrong thing.

A lot of folks want to do the right thing. They just don't have access to the right information at the right time. So making that investment early is less of a risk than, than folks would assume.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Jess. Barry, what's your big advice from, you know, your world covers a broad spectrum of HR for these firms that are one to 15 employees. What's your biggest piece of advice?

Mary Simmons: You know, I, I would focus on engaging the employees. The statistics will tell [00:58:00] you that an engaged employee is far less likely to trigger any type of lawsuit, right? If they're engaged, they're more likely to come to you and say, I don't, I don't like what happened, etc. And part of that engagement, you know, I have to talk about compliance.

And part of that engagement is being compliant with both federal and state law. Again, those employers that are in states that don't, aren't high compliance, um, they still have to follow federal law. And when we are compliant, It helps engage your employees, right? If, if there's a leave that they should get, if we should be following the Americans with Disabilities Act, the employer still needs to follow those laws and that helps engage the staff.

So that engaged staff is also going to be more productive, more productive team, helps us grow our business. [00:59:00] And that's the bottom line.

Mike Vannoy: Yeah, my, my closing thought would be, you know, there's, I think it's an old African proverb. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, you're going to need a team, right? And so if you're trying to build a business, I mean, first thing is have an awesome product and awesome service because without customers, there is no business.

So, focus on that. But there's two sides of that coin. It's also then finding the people that also share that same passion. and let your culture come around that. From there, you've got to have grown up processes. You've got to have grown up tools as you're thinking about building this business. you can't ignore HR.

HR might think, I think a lot of entrepreneurs think about HRO. That's like a department for big companies. No, HR is, is essential. It's core to your team. If you're going to hire people to help you on this mission, to, to, to grow your business, You're, you're [01:00:00] in HR, whether you realize it or not, and you don't get to choose to not comply with the law.

You know, it doesn't matter that I didn't see that 45, that speed limit go from 55 down to 45, I'm still getting my ticket for, for, for speeding. Right. That'd be ignorance of the law isn't an excuse. So. Focus on your product, focus on your service, make something awesome that customers love. And you delight them, then find the people that share that passion and build the processes and systems that you can do so in a compliant way, in a repeatable way that you can then grow that business.

So guys, thanks so much for joining me in this conversation. So, uh, episode number one of four, next, we're going to take on, uh, employee groups from 16 to 50 employees. There's a whole bunch of laws that start to apply. Um, you know, when you're one to 15, we didn't even talk about it, but you know, you don't get to choose to not follow the IRS laws, uh, uh, in, in, in local [01:01:00] tax codes, but as you grow your business, there's going to be different recruiting challenges.

There's gonna be different talent challenges. There can be different systems challenges. There's certainly different compliance challenges and laws that you don't yet have to have to, uh, uh, worry about if you're in the one 15 bracket. So we'll take on 16 to 50 employees next week. Until then, thank you for letting us be part of your mission to grow. [01:02:00]