Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. Today, your toaster learns to write a budget.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Today we're going to help you rewrite your Money Story. Listeners to the show know, money conflicts are often the root of conflict in a troubled marriage. So how do you rewrite your money story to help you understand the role money plays in your divorce? Jennifer Lee is the founder of Modern Wealth and specializes in individuals experiencing transitions in their lives. She loves helping people take control of their own money story in the process. Jennifer, welcome to the Toaster.
Jennifer Lee:
Thank you, Seth. Happy to be here.
Pete Wright:
Jennifer, I'm so glad you're here and I love this. I feel like this whole idea of understanding your money story is an incredibly useful metaphor for talking about our relationship to the stresses and anxieties. Like how we relate to money feels like kind a doorway through which we could understand how we relate to a lot of the stresses potentially in our marriages. So I think I would love to know how you came to understand what the money story is and how it sort of evolves over the course of the struggles in a marriage to the divorce process, as to rewriting your relationship with money after the divorce.
Jennifer Lee:
Thanks for that question, Pete. It's a real challenge when you think about money, and I find it entertaining to have a conversation with a colleague or a friend and really understand their first experience with money because it tells you a lot. If you ask me about my experiences with money, my mom will, or my family, my mom will tell you I sold candy bars on the back of the bus on the way to school. I always had a job, entrepreneurial. I knew how to leverage money as a resource and that's a unique thing. Not everybody has that comfort level with money.
Pete Wright:
No, they don't, Jennifer. No, they definitely don't.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, yeah. Pete, what was your first experience with money?
Pete Wright:
Okay. I also sold stuff. I sold my own art in the fourth grade. I would make art and sell it for a dime, but mostly my experience with money was defined around some really horrible experiences, getting myself in just catastrophic debt from credit card debt in college when I absolutely should have had a better story with money and I wasted years trying to get out from under that.
Seth Nelson:
That's really interesting, Pete. That's much different than mine.
Pete Wright:
What was yours, Seth?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, I was playing dice in the alley, buddy.
Pete Wright:
Oh, you're a street rat.
Seth Nelson:
They called me Seth The Bookie Nelson, let me tell you.
Pete Wright:
Oh, goodness. Starting early. And then you got to the eighth grade...
Seth Nelson:
No, that is not true. That is not true. No, I would tell you that growing up, my parents told us that we were upper middle class family. It didn't feel that way to me when they couldn't afford to turn on the air conditioning in Florida in the swelter heat of August summer. But I think, on my own, that I certainly had that graduating college and living in a Caribbean island where people made a lot of money and I was doing social work. And it took every penny that I made doing social work to keep up with my friends that this was their discretionary income they were spending. I was spending all my income and they were banking it. And then I came back, went to law school, did some other things, and so by the time I really started saving was relatively late in life because I went through a divorce, I went to law school. There's all these life things that kind of suck money out from you.
Pete Wright:
Well, I mean, that's why I think this is so fascinating because just asking that question, Jennifer, it makes me rethink some of those behaviors. Where did I get that sort of resentment of money that I felt like, "Well, screw it. I'm just going to spend," When I'm 16 years old, 17 years old, 18 years old.
Jennifer Lee:
Absolutely. And my practice is primarily what I would call the non-moneyed party. Oftentimes I'm dealing with somebody who's in the midst of a divorce or widowed and they're the person who didn't handle the finances. Doesn't mean they're not capable, doesn't mean they're not intelligent, just means that wasn't their area of expertise in the relationship or their responsibilities. And so it's really trying to understand what the limitations are and what the hesitation was about handling those things.
Seth Nelson:
Because it's a learned skill.
Jennifer Lee:
It is a learned skill, but there's also a psychology to it. A lot of women will say to me, if you really ask that question, they'll tell you the story about when they were young and, "We never could do anything, and so now since I have the money and I'm making money, I spend it. I want to do things. I want to experience things because I didn't get to do that as a young person." Or, "We never had money, so I have to save it and protect it and I'm scared to invest it. My dad was a gambler and I'm afraid I'm not going to have my home." So there's a real psychology to it and I think it's kind of interesting. Go home and talk to your spouse or your buddy having a drink to just kind of understand theirs and what their very first impression was and who in their life introduced them to money and what that effect was, right? What's the impact?
Pete Wright:
At what point, when you think about just your relationship with clients coming to terms with their story, at what point are you meeting them typically? Like during the divorce, before the divorce, after the divorce, dealing with the non-moneyed party at some part of their journey and understanding how they relate to money?
Jennifer Lee:
More recently, I've been dealing with people in the beginning stages, so they're just meeting with their attorney and they're overwhelmed and...
Pete Wright:
Because, come on, attorneys are overwhelming, Jennifer.
Seth Nelson:
Really, you guys start off the show this way?
Pete Wright:
Do you know, the bait only works if you pick it up, Seth. The bait only works if you pick it up. Jennifer, please.
Jennifer Lee:
That's quite all right. So I've been doing a lot of what I'll call financial triage. So this is when somebody is just meeting with their attorney, they're delighted to be with their attorney and really enjoying their meetings, but their attorney asks them for, "Complete this marital balance sheet, give me some documents," All these things, and it's too much. What I do is have them collect those documents, talk them through, do you want the house? Can you afford to stay there? What does that look like? Will you be house poor? For cashflow? All those kinds of things, and run different scenarios by them and really make them think about what those options mean. It's not my job to tell you you can't keep the house. You can keep the house, it's my job to tell you the impact of those ideas. So then you can go to your attorney and say, "Here's what I want." And then more efficiently proceed, I would hope.
Seth Nelson:
So I'm going to put this in a little different context because you said something that I thought was super important, is it's not your decision, nor is it the lawyer's decision, to tell someone what they want or what's important to them. In a divorce, I can tell you, equitable distribution, the division of assets and debts in Florida, check your local jurisdiction, please. It starts out as equitable. You're going to get half of all the marital debts and half of all the marital assets, and we'll do some offsets and do some math and Excel spreadsheets, which is my love language, and we will figure it out, but it's not my job to tell you to keep the house. It's not my job to say you're better off keeping your 401k or giving him the house and you keeping the 401k. And when I say his or hers, it's all marital, it's just, whose name was it titled in?
But all I can do is tell you what the law can give you or get you. I can't tell you what that might do in the future, and that's why you need a financial planner early in the process.
Pete Wright:
Well, and that is actually exactly where I was going too, Seth, because what you're talking about there really underscores the other psychology of the thing because we could be talking about money all the live long day, but as soon as you assign it to the marital house, it might mean something very different to you emotionally.
Seth Nelson:
A hundred percent with my clients all the time. I'm going to take this out of the divorce world for a minute because I know people listening. When they listen and we start talking about this, they start thinking about their own case, their own life, and I want to take this out of that scenario to give you this concept, and it happened to me just six, eight months ago, I guess a little more, when, Pete, as you know, my father was terminally ill and he was desperately wanting to stay in that house. He said, "We bought this house, your mother and I said the only way we're leaving this house is feet first. She did two years ago and I'm going to follow her out of here." And then he saw, with a great financial planner, how much money we were spending on 24 hour care for him.
And the financial planner said, "I'm not telling you where you need to live or where you spend your money, I'm just telling you your money's going to run out on this day." And my dad was like, "Seth, go look for an assisted living facility for me." And then he made the financial decision. It was driven by finance, but when he got in, he was more social, he loved it, he said it was the best thing he ever did. He missed the house but boy, he loved that they had a restaurant to go to and he had these interesting people to talk to, but I took it out of divorce to get that concept is that he made the decision of something that he did not want to do literally going into the meeting. It changed him. Jennifer, is that what you try to do when you're working with people in divorce to get back in the divorce context?
Jennifer Lee:
It's so true. And I mean, I obviously work with people who aren't going through divorce as well, but it really just boils down to money and emotions. So when I'm working with a client, no matter who they are, I like to say financial planning is simple, and they kind of look at me, "Really? How could it be simple?" I say, well, it's what do you have and what do you want? What is your income, assets? What are your resources and what do you want? If you don't know what you want, how can I help you get what you want? So then they say, "Well, I want a beach house and I want this, I want that." Okay, well that's great. So what's realistic with your resources? What can we attribute? What can we allocate to those things? And then let's go for the [inaudible 00:11:36] the prayer on the extra piece. But it really does boil down to emotions.
Pete Wright:
Well, that gets to, I mean, the moment you said, "What do you have? What you want?" I imagine when you are compromised, right? When you are the non moneyed party in a contentious divorce, what you might want is not to be terrified of the future. That is the emotion that hits me first in this context is how do you help me not be scared of not knowing how my money works?
Jennifer Lee:
That's my unique value proposition. So that's how I try to pitch myself, right? No, I mean that's the whole thing. I had a call today with a young lady who is now post-divorce and she expedited through her divorce with rapid speed and efficiency and just like a champ. So now she's finished with the divorce, I'm managing her assets, we're talking about cashflow, and she says, "Oh, you know, I took the kids on a trip. I did all these things." That's great. Now let's get back to, you're free, you're financially free from your spouse, you're independent on your own, you're doing things with the kids, but let's get a grip on reality again. Let's look at what your excess cash flow is on a monthly basis, and then think about your longer term goals, your midterm goals, and your short-term goals, and let's plan that out. So it's a process.
Seth Nelson:
And it can change.
Jennifer Lee:
It changes all the time.
Seth Nelson:
And that's what I think people get afraid of because we're always afraid of change. I've met some clients, when I put them with the financial planner, they feel like I've been locked in this relationship, not being able to control my money, and now I'm talking to someone else that is basically telling me I need to control my money, but maybe I just don't want to do that right now. I've been so controlled by money or someone controlling money over me. They have this really interesting dynamic to me where they just want to live kind of fancy free and we're just trying to help them for the long run because I always tell people, I cannot wait. I want to be unemployed one day. And they're like, "What are you talking about?" I said, "I want to retire. That's unemployed. No more income coming in. So I got to save to make that happen."
But maybe things change because your kid gets into a school and they get a scholarship, right? There was a financial planning company, I don't know, one of the big ones, and there was a commercial and every time like, "Oh, I got a raise," And they would put it and put, say, 'Plan B'. And they would put it, "Oh, I got a bonus. Plan B." And they take this check, and then the little girl that's growing up all along, she opens up a envelope and says, "I got a full scholarship." And then the next thing is they're driving away on a boat and it's called Plan B.
Jennifer Lee:
That's great. That's fantastic.
Seth Nelson:
I don't even remember who it was, but it was a great commercial. But I find it very interesting, Jennifer, and I'm really interested to hear, with your clients, are they talking about, "Well, I'm going to spend now because I'm out from under it," Or, "I've been so controlled by money, I'm going to save every penny," Or are they saying, "You know what? I'm going to go buy material things because I wasn't allowed," Or as a child, they didn't have...
Pete Wright:
What is the catharsis?
Seth Nelson:
Or was it, "I didn't get to experience life, so I'm going to spend it on these trips. I don't need material things. I'll live in a small house. I don't need a fancy car, but I'm going to Europe." How does that play out?
Jennifer Lee:
It's a delicate dance and it's an ongoing one, so everybody is different. The buttons that push them are different. I've got a client who says, "Don't ever say the word budget to me, not an option. I don't want to be restricted by anything." And so with her, I helped her save extra money in a cash balance plan, and she's socking money away and she says, "Oh, this is great. I'm doing that. Now can I retire?" I said, "Well, I know you, and you have $120,000 electric Mercedes and you have a $2 million home in Florida and you have expensive tastes. Are you going to reduce your lifestyle and we'll put you into retirement now? Can you live on a hundred grand instead of 300?" And she was like, "No." I said, "Okay. Well then..."
Pete Wright:
So you just answered your own question, right?
Jennifer Lee:
We're not done. So you have choices, absolutely. Can you just keep living large and not saving for that, or are you going to have to figure out a way to maintain or reduce your level of expenditure? So it can be a frustrating conversation for clients and you do your best to manage around them. A lot of times I'll go through somebody's cashflow and I get to what I call the discretionary number. This is kind of delicate because once you figure that out, you can't un-know your number. So if that number's three grand a month, at your discretion, you can go buy a Peloton bike and that ate up almost two months of discretionary money, or you can put 500 bucks away a month and buy it for yourself next January.
Seth Nelson:
But that's stupid, Jennifer.
Jennifer Lee:
I know. Well, yeah, just put it on a credit card, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, with 19% interest please.
Pete Wright:
Somebody's got to get paid, Seth. Somebody's got to get paid. That's what I'm saying. But this is what you just said is, I think, interesting, especially when you're talking about the non moneyed party because I imagine part of the stress, whether you have enough money to live well or retire or whatever, is, oh my goodness, to what degree do I have to be responsible for things that I didn't know were just being taken care of? I didn't know what my mortgage was or what my rent was. I didn't know what I was contributing to healthcare or retirement. So I am curious what that mountain looks like to climb over when you're rewriting your story post-divorce.
Jennifer Lee:
It's a big mountain.
Pete Wright:
And I guess what are the things that bite you? What are the things that are most surprising to people?
Jennifer Lee:
I don't know that there's any one specific category that's surprising to them. I think they are, if they're non-money, they're most often in the beginning part just shocked and they don't know where to start. It's way over their head and they're overwhelmed and they don't know how they're going to do it. So it's talking them through, okay, here's your current situation and there's a current cashflow in your household with your spouse, now you're going to split that into two and you're going to have two mortgages and two Netflix and two Amazon and two of everything. It's going to be a little tighter. So we have to make decisions about what that looks like and be smart about it. And so it's educating them and getting them comfortable with what are they going to do? Do they need to go get a part-time job? Do they need to go back to school? Oftentimes, I'm sure, Seth, that you have a spouse that just wants the divorce over, just make it go away, and they're willing to give up some things sometimes. That makes me crazy.
Seth Nelson:
Well, and I've had clients that didn't hire me that I see a year or two later in, let's say, a social setting, and they said, "I wish I would've hired you. I wanted to get it through so quickly. I just went to a mediator and I just got it done." And I said, "Look, I appreciate what you're saying. The flip side of that is you made the decision on a mental health decision that you weren't going to do it, now you're making it on a financial decision, and those are two different decisions."
Jennifer Lee:
So true.
Seth Nelson:
At the time, if you want to hire me and he was going to not put forth a reasonable offer, which is one I think that is a likely outcome in court based on the law and the facts and the analysis, and you're willing to go to court on that. I'll go to court on that all day. But right when we get an offer that's in the realm of possibility, we got to pump the brakes and say, "Okay, it's not everything we want, but can we live with it because it might happen in court." I said, "You didn't want to do that at the time. You were focused on your kids. You were focused on your career. You knew you could make more money later, so it's okay. Don't beat yourself up about it now. You made the best decision with the information you had at the time. Don't look back, keep looking forward."
Jennifer Lee:
That's good advice.
Pete Wright:
Well, I mean it gets to the nature of all regret, really, but financial regret, like the act of having to come to terms with the fact that you cannot relive decisions that you made, in some cases, years ago, but you can take ownership of what's right in front of you, and to what degree, when you're faced with money challenges, does that rewrite your story in the other areas of your life? I'm actually curious. When you see people as you're talking to your clients, what happens to someone who is able to successfully rewrite their money story and what are the broader impacts or the ripples in the pond that they see in terms of forward change?
Jennifer Lee:
There's certainly a levity and a likeness that comes from having control of your own wellbeing and the future and your children and having a strategy and a plan. So this woman I met with this morning, every time we talk, we might be on the phone for 20 minutes or the Zoom for 20 minutes and she goes, "Oh, I feel so much better." It's just about talking through those things. You're not married anymore, so you don't have that sounding board. Hopefully it was a good sounding board, but you don't have it anymore. So we act as that resource to talk through things, right? She was going to redo the floors in her house and pay cash out of her savings account. I said, "Okay, well, your discretionary number is four grand a month. It's a 0% financing. Let's pay $1,000 a month out of your discretionary money if that's something you want to do." And so, "Oh, I never thought about that." Right? So it's just getting people more comfortable with taking control of their own wealth and their own picture.
Pete Wright:
Well, and I know we've talked about, you drop savings and that rings a bell. How does savings work when you're in the midst of a divorce and dealing with alimony? Seth, you want talk about that?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, that's a great segue, Pete. You really have to talk to your lawyer when you're talking about what assets and debts you might get in the divorce. And the reason for that, in Florida, and the law just changed back in July, 2023, the alimony statute, but prior to that, there was no savings component. If you were socking money away and living underneath your means, you're making all the right decisions, everything Jennifer would tell you to do, your former spouse had an opening, may or may not have been successful, but had an opening to say she's living a lifestyle and she's putting three grand away now. I shouldn't have to pay three grand for her to save. It was supposed to be for her needs. In savings, under Florida law at the time, was not a need in divorce, which forced people to live paycheck to paycheck.
Pete Wright:
I don't know how to make a sound of my jaw dropping, but that's ridiculous.
Seth Nelson:
I did not agree with the law, but I had to apply it in court and I had to argue it in court. So what would I do to help my client today and in the future? I would just go to bat to get that house. And the reason I wanted my client to get the house, from a financial perspective, if they said, "I want the house to keep the kids in it. I want the house because I love the house. I want the house for this reason or that reason or whatever reason." I also said, "You might want the house because the house pays the mortgage. When you pay the mortgage, you pay down your principal, there's a hidden savings component."
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. It's an appreciable asset too.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. It could go down, but every time you pay down that principle, you are saving money. So you really got to talk to your lawyer about that, and how does the alimony laws in your local jurisdiction impact you and what might that do down the road now the law has changed? That issue hasn't been litigated that I've seen through the court system yet because it's only eight months old and you would have to go to a trial and go to an appeal and all that, but it'd be very interesting to see what happens in the future. So think these things through.
Jennifer Lee:
Seth, that just brings up another question. I'd be interested to hear your perspective. Once somebody files for divorce and let's say they didn't have any savings, now they filed for divorce and there's two parties and one saves and one doesn't, the one that's saving, do they get to keep that or is that a marital asset at that point?
Seth Nelson:
That's a great question. So we always say check your local jurisdiction. In Florida, the date that you file for divorce is a big line in the sand. Any money earned by a party after divorce is their money. So if you have a guy making 5 million and the day he files for divorce, the day before, he gets his paycheck from the day before back, and then he files for divorce and a month later he gets a new paycheck and that paycheck is all earned after he filed, and he puts it in a separate bank account so it's not commingled with any marital money, and he pays all the bills. He pays every single bill that he's naturally been paying. The wife, she doesn't go without, she spends like she normally has been spending, everybody does things the same, but at the end of the month, he puts five grand away in savings because historically they were saving $5,000 a month. That five grand is his. It's earned after the marriage.
That might be different in different jurisdictions, so you really need to check your local jurisdiction with a qualified attorney that is licensed in your state.
Pete Wright:
When does that stop? When you say after the marriage, is it after the moment you file for divorce? Is it...
Seth Nelson:
The hypothetical I just gave was after the date of filing. If your case goes on for three years and this guy's socking away five grand, which is $60,000 a year, which is $180,000 over three years, it's his. And he's going to say, "Judge, I don't owe any back child support. I don't owe back alimony. I paid for everything. Oh, and by the way, judge, I don't have 180,000, I only have 140,000 because I paid 20 grand to my lawyer and I gave her lawyer 20 grand." If he does everything like that, he's giving, giving, giving, he gets the remainder. It's his, he earned it after the marriage. Now, that can be juxtaposed, and this is where complexity gets in in the law, what happens if you file for divorce in June and he gets a bonus in December, how much is that bonus attributable to January to June for the year versus June to December?
Pete Wright:
Oh, right. So you have to...
Seth Nelson:
Because some was earned before the date of filing, some was earned after. But it's nuanced, it can get complicated and check your local jurisdiction.
Pete Wright:
Just one more question you got me thinking about based on this because one of the things that you lean in heavy on is, let's just say he's giving, giving, giving, and he's paying a lot of bills. What if he's not? Are you supposing that there's an alternative there where he's a Scrooge just keeping his money and everybody's doing their own thing?
Seth Nelson:
So he's a Scrooge, he will say, "Judge, it's my money. I get to keep the 180." We're back to that. He wasn't given the attorney's fees. Okay, 180. And if I'm representing the wife, I said, "Judge, he's right. He gets to keep his 180. The problem is he had an obligation to support my client and the children through the pendency of this case, and he failed to do so, so we are owed back alimony and back child support, and my client took a loan that she's been paying interest on to pay the mortgage." So she took a loan to pay a debt and we want all that money back. That's how that comes back.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Seth Nelson:
Or I just tell him Pete will pay it.
Pete Wright:
Well, Pete comes from big podcast, so that's...
Seth Nelson:
Big podcast money.
Pete Wright:
It's all about big podcast money. I feel like you got us starting to think about what are some things you got to make sure you do as you're leaning into your divorce? And I know, Jennifer, you have a divorce checklist. What do you tell people when they're in the speaking of pendency of the divorce? What's your checklist from a financial perspective to make sure that they're moving in the right direction?
Jennifer Lee:
Well, I prefer to, before you even get knee deep in talking with attorneys and making those big decisions that we really understand what you have, right? Unfortunately now, there's a lot of online accounts and passwords and so you might not necessarily know all your resources that are in the household, so that can be a challenge. So you want to get your ducks in a row, you really want to understand what you have to work with. And then for me, the next step is having that conversation with an attorney like Seth and saying, what can I expect in my best case scenario? So we know the parameters of, here's what the best case scenario is going to look like, and then we discuss what would that be like for your life. Can you handle that? Can you do that? And then going back. So it's an ongoing process. It's really more of a triage than necessarily...
Seth Nelson:
And you made it sound so nice, it just doesn't play out that way.
Jennifer Lee:
I know it's ugly. I wish it would be nice.
Seth Nelson:
I just went into surgery, it was like last minute, but it was fine.
Pete Wright:
Everything eventually ends up back where it started, right?
Jennifer Lee:
Wouldn't you say, if you had a new potential divorcee come into your office and they said to you, "What can I expect? What do I need to know?" Wouldn't that be a great conversation? They come in and they're probably a red hot mess. "He did this, she did that. I don't want to be with them anymore." And they're talking about all the emotional things and not necessarily... It takes a while to get to the nuts and bolts of what we actually have to deal with.
Seth Nelson:
I agree with you a hundred percent. One of the biggest things my potential clients struggle with is talking about themselves and what their goals are.
Pete Wright:
Well, and why is that? I'm really curious about that. Is it because they're afraid just to have the conversation or that, and I think it's, they don't know?
Jennifer Lee:
They don't know.
Seth Nelson:
They don't know, one. Some do, which is delightful. Some come in and they just want to tell their story. They're sitting down with the lawyer, which takes a lot of courage. A lot of these people have never been in a lawyer's office. And if they have, it hasn't been a divorce lawyer's office and if they've been in a divorce lawyer's office, it means they've talked to a bunch of people already and my red flag is up, like why haven't you made a decision? Then they tell me the lawyers they talked to and I understand why. That's another subject. But they come in and they're like, "Oh my God, there's someone that's going to listen to me and they're going to tell me what I want to hear." And I'll let them go for a little bit and I'll stop them and I say, "Before you go on, because you're telling me a long story that I don't know what parts are important or not because I don't know what your goals are."
And what I mean by goals, not your long-term goals, what are your goals for this conversation. When you leave here, I hope you're going to call somebody and say, whoever's in your support group, "I had a good conversation with Seth. I didn't like everything he said because it turns out Florida law sucks, the process is horrible, but I got my questions answered and I got some homework. I got some things I have to think about." And I tell them, my goal when they're sitting across from me is never to have them hire me as their lawyer. My goal isn't to get them to do that. My goal is to reach their goals. And some people come in and say, "I'm thinking about divorce. We're still in counseling. I just want to know what it looks like." Okay, let's talk about that. Some people are like, "I just got served from divorce papers. I want to hire you today." And I said, "Well, I don't know if I want you to be my client, so let's figure that out." And we go back and forth.
But having those goals in mind would be amazing, Jennifer. And sometimes people come in and they listen to the podcast and they just complain about Pete.
Jennifer Lee:
I can't imagine [inaudible 00:33:16].
Pete Wright:
Thank you, Jennifer. Voice of reason.
Jennifer Lee:
He's so delightful.
Pete Wright:
See, this is what... It's just fuel. He's just going to turn that against me later, I'm sure. I mean, I think this is really interesting and I think as we sort of distill this conversation down, the whole idea of not just dealing with the practical application of funds to divorce, but the emotional side of coming to terms with how we relate to money, getting over fear of dealing with money, getting over the fear and uncertainty and doubt that we'll have enough. It feels to me like so much of that emotional work is what allows us to be able to sit down and do the practical work and build the plans and come up with the goals. Is that a fair assessment?
Jennifer Lee:
Absolutely. Divorce is a team sport. You need the attorney, you need the financial person, and honestly, you need either the therapist or the divorce coach because it's too expensive to have an emotional breakdown with Seth every other day. You need somebody to help you stay on task, you need somebody to tell you you're not crazy, that you're dealing with a narcissist, that you're doing the right thing for your children. You need somebody to help walk you through that. And certainly we act as a financial advocate, and I call myself sometimes a financial therapist, but there's only so much I can do in that arena. I'm not trained to be a therapist. I'm trained to help with your money and really make sense of what you're telling me and really make sure that it makes sense for your life.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I love that you reframe that too because it's something that I think we can't reinforce enough, which is that the divorce is a team sport, and I think you're spot on that when you imagine you're getting a divorce, that it's the you and your relationship with your divorce attorney. And if we know anything about the process, there are a lot more people involved, whether you like it or not, so better have the people that you're going to be able to relate to, even if one of them is Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, I knew it was coming. I was bracing for it. It was good. Okay, so I have one more question. I know we're wrapping up. Jennifer, here's something that we haven't touched on. How is it someone gets through the divorce, they're working with you, they're managing their own money, they're making their decisions, they got their feet underneath them, and then they meet someone new, and now you have to get into a relationship and how are you going to deal with money with that new relationship? And how does the past relationship, where you got divorced, impact it after you've already done all the hard work? Do you see that? Can you speak to that?
Jennifer Lee:
Actually, I have a, and it's not a divorce, but it's a widow situation and it's a neighbor. She lost her spouse and she started to date a lot of people. I had referred her to an estate planning attorney and he did her documents and at the end of their meeting he said, "Two things. You're not a nurse, you're not a purse." You probably say that or heard that, right?
Pete Wright:
I've never heard that and I love it.
Jennifer Lee:
Well, don't be a nurse or a purse.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.
Jennifer Lee:
You have resources, you're an attractive woman, you have money. Think of me, think of Jennifer, think of these people as your board of directors. When you're serious about somebody, let's have that conversation and let's talk through the financial components of it. And actually, she's getting married tomorrow.
Seth Nelson:
Not too late to sign the prenup.
Jennifer Lee:
No, they're keeping their assets separate. They both have children from different marriages and...
Seth Nelson:
Still might need a prenup. Check your local jurisdiction. I'm not joking.
Jennifer Lee:
Yeah, technically they're not actually getting married. They're just doing a commitment ceremony.
Seth Nelson:
Uh-huh. See, Pete? Got to it.
Pete Wright:
That's where they get you, attorney. That's how they do it.
Jennifer Lee:
Details, right? But that's certainly a big risk, a big pothole that you could fall into and make big mistakes. Let's not do that. So we try to be that resource. And I'm sure, Seth, you have clients who say, "Oh, I'm crazy about this person that I'm dating." Okay, well, let's have a quick conversation about what does that look like and what does that mean for you financially? Oftentimes the other person doesn't have the same resources you do. So it's nice to check the boxes before.
Seth Nelson:
Good stuff.
Pete Wright:
Well, I'll tell you, Jennifer, it's a real pleasure. Thank you for coming and hanging out with us and telling us how to rewrite our money story. This is very useful. And where shall we send people to who want to learn a little bit more about your work?
Jennifer Lee:
Sure. So my website is modern and then a hyphen and the word wealth. Modern-wealth.com.
Pete Wright:
Modern-wealth.com. Link in the show notes. Jennifer Lee, thank you so much for hanging out with us. You are a wonderful guest. Come back anytime.
Jennifer Lee:
My pleasure. Thank you for having me. It was fun.
Pete Wright:
Did you hear that, Seth? It was fun. We did okay.
Seth Nelson:
I heard it. I wasn't going to comment. I was just going to take the compliment.
Pete Wright:
Take the notch
Seth Nelson:
In the notch.
Pete Wright:
Notch on the podcast.
Seth Nelson:
I had a nice time too. It was fun for me. We do it every week.
Pete Wright:
In the meantime, we have to let you go because we're going to turn our attention to a listener question. Hey Seth, listener question time. I'm very excited about this one. Very excited. This one comes from ADH Donna and Donna says this, "I'm following Pete from the ADHD podcast," Shout out to the ADHD podcast. My people. I love that. "And I just want to shout out how much I loved the Q and A episode. It was an audio divorce montage. Question. My former spouse and I aren't divorced, just separated. I've had to move a few times and every time he quits his job and follows to wherever I go because of the kids. We're in a town neither of us loves and I feel like he's starting to resent me. I'm not sure the best path forward. Insurance and all that is in his name and I'm afraid to start pushing for a full legal divorce that he'll leave us high and dry. Sorry if you've covered this. I'm confused." What do you say for Donna?
Seth Nelson:
First off, thanks for the question. Let's clarify a few things. My former spouse and I aren't divorced. Not a former spouse yet.
Pete Wright:
Oh, that is a good catch, counselor.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. And she brings it up at the end, like I'm afraid to go forward with the full legal divorce. In my mind...
Pete Wright:
It's just a divorce.
Seth Nelson:
It's either you're pregnant or you're not, you're married or you're not.
Pete Wright:
Divorce is not on a dimmer. I get that. All right.
Seth Nelson:
Yes, exactly. But you're afraid he'll leave you high and dry. I don't know what his intentions are. I do know from what you've said, it appears he cares about his children considering the fact that you change jobs, he's going to go because he wants to be around the kids. It doesn't seem like...
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. It's a caravan.
Seth Nelson:
He's trying to keep you back from moving. I don't know the ins and outs. I think what you need to do is meet with a lawyer in your jurisdiction and say, "What am I entitled to? How does this play out?" You have some assumptions here, and you're afraid to start pushing for full legal divorce because he might leave you high and dry. Does the law allow him to do that?
Pete Wright:
That's great. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So I think you need to have that question answered and I would get a list of all your expenses, of the kids' expenses, of your income. If you know his income, great, but the more financial information that you can get your hands on fairly easily, don't get stressed about it, you don't need every last penny, every last bank statement, every last cryptocurrency password. But if you know your credit card bills and are you renting? Is there a mortgage, is there a car payment? Your insurance? You mentioned health insurance potentially here because you said insurances and all that's in his name. I'm assuming that's health, dental, vision for you and the kids. Get as much of that as you can. Find a qualified attorney in your local jurisdiction and sit down and have a conversation.
Pete Wright:
What counts as a local jurisdiction, Seth? If it's just changing towns from one town to the next? I mean, let's assume first they're not crossing state lines because I assume that's easy. Absolutely a different jurisdiction if you're crossing state lines.
Seth Nelson:
Correct. So it's an excellent point, Pete. So yes, if you're not crossing state lines, then go check with someone in the town that you live in. Or my cousin lives up in the Boston area and everything is like one town over.
Pete Wright:
Everything. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So one or two towns over. But if you're here in Florida and I'm in Tampa in Hillsborough County, you might get a difference of opinion in Hillsborough County versus Pinellas County just across the bay. And talk to more than one lawyer. We have a whole podcast on things you should do when you're looking to talk to a lawyer for the first time. And I would just listen to that and find someone that is in your jurisdiction, in your local area, and go from there. Now, if you've crossed state lines, definitely go talk to someone because that might impact children issues.
Pete Wright:
Okay. That's the safe part. All right. I think it's a great question and I feel like this comes from... I can see how you might get yourself into a position like this.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, this isn't uncommon. This is not uncommon. You're not alone out there.
Pete Wright:
But this is the thing I believe I've heard you say, and I want you to catch me when I start lying. Your potentially soon to be former spouse does not need to know that you're meeting with an attorney to ask these questions. So there's nothing that you have to necessarily fear about just learning some more about your options, your options moving forward, right?
Seth Nelson:
I would agree with that a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And if you're talking to a good lawyer, they're going to explain both sides of this transaction. I think that's a very, very well phrased point, Pete. Thank you for adding that. You should go to law school.
Pete Wright:
We should probably just stop the podcast before I screw it up.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, nice seeing you. See you next week.
Pete Wright:
All right. Hey, good seeing you too. And for everybody listening to the show, thank you so much for hanging out with us, downloading and listening to the show. You're the very, very best. On behalf of our great guest today, Jennifer Lee, and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright and we will catch you right here next week on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
How to Split A Toaster is part of the True Story FM Podcast Network. Produced by Andy Nelson, music by T Bless the Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split A Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
