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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Well, welcome everyone to The Overflow with Susan and Brandon Thomas. We are so excited for the conversation today.
Speaker 2:Oh, so excited. Yes. This I mean, you know, regarding The Overflow, we just have a list of things Yeah. That we wanna get to. And from the very beginning, I said, hey.
Speaker 2:If we're gonna do a podcast, there's a list of things I wanna talk about. And if I can't talk about these things, then what are we doing?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like, I wanna talk about these things. Yeah. And if five people are interested, it's for those five. Yeah. And today is one of those I think many more than five will be interested in.
Speaker 2:I pray. This is something that has been a powerful part of our ministry, and it is miracles and healings. Yes. Miracles and healings, we are going there. I was grieved when I heard some pastors talking about how in the West, you know, just miracles and healing, it just doesn't happen as much.
Speaker 2:And yet, when you go on the mission field, you begin to see it in places like Africa, and you see it in Central And South America. And that really grieved me.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And it grieved me also because it's not my experience. That's not my experience. Now to frame this, we did not grow up in churches that would be what you would call a typical healing ministry kind of church environment.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:But I did grow up in church, in a church with, under my father's leadership, that believed that people could be healed.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:We would pray for people to be healed, and that kind of thing. But it was just, there's been a growth in our understanding Yeah. And in our ministry, and how we function in the healing gift, there's been a bit of a growth in ourselves, and maybe just we found a voice. And I think for me, it was in the early aughts, when the church was still under 10 years old. And God led me to do a series of messages called, When Pigs Fly.
Speaker 2:And the point is, I remember, you know, the phrase, oh, well that'll happen when pigs fly. In other words, it ain't gonna happen.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, that healing will happen when pigs fly. Well, know what? The healing happened, That's pigs just
Speaker 1:right, that's right.
Speaker 2:And so the whole series, and it led me on a journey, was one of my first, I was like, let's just search scripture on this, and let's be open. And so I began to teach on that, just from scripture, and what we saw, because we do, full disclosure, there is a view out there, I hadn't thought of this till just now, to But talk there is a view out there that says that some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:With the first century apostles, that they were used to accelerate the church with that first generation apostles, first generation church, New Testament church. And we are, and that's called cessationism. We are not cessationists. Correct. We believe that everything you see in the word of God is available today, in terms of the gifts of the spirit Yes.
Speaker 2:Including healing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So once I cross that bridge, okay, then it's like, well, if this is available, let's see what it looks like in scripture. Mhmm. And as we taught it, and as we explored it, all of a sudden, it's amazing, we began to get stories of people Yeah. Who would be healed.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And that was my moment. Yeah. That if you believe, and some people watch this, you grew up with this, and you're like, yeah, duh. But if you believe, if you're looking for God to move that way, it's amazing how he does.
Speaker 1:Yes. Like, if you don't believe God will heal, if you don't ask God for healing, don't be surprised when you don't experience healing.
Speaker 2:Right. Right? And and hear me, when we were growing up, I would we would pray for people in the hospital Absolutely. And we would pray for them to heal. We would see them heal.
Speaker 2:Yes. But this is a little different. This is more like a normative part of our ministry. This is a a signature of the ministry.
Speaker 1:Yes. I would say on on my side of this, my journey, testimony part of it, if you will, is that I did not grow up necessarily in a traditional or in the tradition that I was in, I did not grow up really talking about the holy spirit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and let me say, I think it's it's important to say that you and I both, even though at the end we were in the same church, we did not grow up in the same stream
Speaker 1:I didn't know you.
Speaker 2:Of and we didn't grow up in the same type of messaging.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:And so I we weren't as afraid of the holy spirit, kinda, but not really. Yeah. Whereas you grew up in an environment that was very
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Cautious and spoke about being cautious of that.
Speaker 1:Yes. I mean, almost embarrassed of the holy spirit. And anyone who was talking about the holy spirit, they were weird. They were really strange, honestly strange people, not just
Speaker 2:And both our parents were awesome on this. Oh, perfect parents. Environments we grew up in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Parents are incredible. It's just the environment of the church that we were in. And so I liken it to if you've ever been in a relationship with someone. Or let's say you meet someone for the first time and there's the spark of connection, and then you get to know them, and that spark turns into a true relationship.
Speaker 1:And then the longer you go in that relationship, you learn things about them that you never knew, you would not have known because now you know this person. And it's and the longer that you connect and you talk and spend time with, you see more and more of who that person is. That's been my journey with the holy spirit. And I'm still on it. I I don't even begin to think I've scratched the surface of who God is and and how he would want to show and reveal himself to me relationally.
Speaker 1:And so it's the greatest joy because I was introduced to him at seven, and that's when I first accepted Jesus as my savior. And as I've said before, I went through a season where I ran away from him for a while, and then God and his grace brought me back. But it was in my young adult years that I began to be introduced to the Holy Spirit and the ministry of the Holy Spirit. And it it changed my whole life. It transformed everything.
Speaker 1:It was the power that I had been missing in in my walk.
Speaker 2:And this was the prayer. God, if there's more of you you've said this so many times. God, if there's more of you, I want all you have for me. Yes. How could that prayer be wrong?
Speaker 1:Right. I want all you have. I don't want things concocted by people.
Speaker 2:Anchored to the word of God.
Speaker 1:Anchored to the word of God because that's everything. That's our guide. That's our direction. But I did not want something fabricated. I wanted who he really is.
Speaker 1:And if God is a person, one one God, three persons, I wanna know all of who he is. Yeah. And so that began the journey for me personally. And then over the years, and even as our ministry as God has changed us and grown us and is still growing us, seeing that element of who God is is is incredible.
Speaker 2:So Luke chapter four verse 18 is a is an incredible scripture. The spirit of the Lord is anointed upon me, Jesus said, for he has anointed me to bring the good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim that the captives will be released, that the blind will see, that the oppressed will be set free, and that the time of the Lord's favor has come. And then Jesus in his ministry, what did that look like? All of the above, and including 30 plus miracles.
Speaker 2:30 plus miracles. And people over and over again, were amazed. They were amazed. And for me, it's just powerful to see how mission unlocks miracles. Mission unlocks miracles.
Speaker 2:That you will have your miracle stories when you're on mission. You'll have a giving miracle story when you are on a giving mission. Yeah. Missional giving.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you will not get your giving miracle story like, I gave, and how many times have we heard this? Hey Brandon, you preached on tithing, or hey Brandon, you preached on sacrificial giving, and I prayed, and I leaned in, and I just trusted the Lord, and then I got this bonus, and it was to the dime, or I got something from the government back, it was to it was to the dime. And again, that's not a promise you'll get that, but it's happened a lot. Yeah. That's a miracle.
Speaker 1:It is a miracle.
Speaker 2:That's a miracle, and we count that as a miracle. And so we wanna urge everyone to believe in the reality of miracles today.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, I think it's really sweet. So I actually did a deep dive because we have been talking about healing, and God has been doing healings in our church. And it was one study week years ago where we get away, and we just have intense time of studying and and what what's next for the church. And I spent several days just dedicated to walking through the scriptures and learning, God, what is your design for healing?
Speaker 1:And what struck me there were so many many things that struck me. In fact, I've got a million notes that I, you know, probably get to some of them maybe today as we talk.
Speaker 2:I remember this. It was a powerful study time. I mean, I know exactly where we were. We were you know, you were you were diving deep in.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I was working on some other stuff, but it was it was very cool.
Speaker 1:Yes. And it was formative. Yeah. There were things that And
Speaker 2:we're already on the journey, but it was just like, let's go into this.
Speaker 1:He began to clarify things to me. And some of the things that, you know, I'll share what I learned a little bit on this podcast today, but I think what I would start with is this. I was overcome by how kind God is. Mhmm. How he loves us.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. How Jesus, as he put on human flesh and walked among us and walked on the earth, and everywhere he was going, he was announcing the kingdom of God and pointing people to God being restored. Mhmm. That as he did that, he would physically heal people. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And the healings came in many different forms, which I'd love to get into in a moment because we need a lot of different kind of healing. Of course. And and our sicknesses come from a lot of different root causes. They're not all the same. That's another thing I discovered.
Speaker 1:But just God's heart toward us, if ever you wonder the character of God and who is this God, does he see you? Does he care about you? As you see him touch people, touch people that no one else would touch. You know, that those lepers, those people with with such a disease on their very skin, highly contagious, and Jesus would touch them. And he would love them, and he would heal them.
Speaker 1:And that just began the journey for me of discovery.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah. It's so powerful. And Acts chapter two shows us the first century church, and how this was a part of the very first church. In Acts chapter two, starting in verse 42, all the believers devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, and to fellowship, and to the sharing in meals, including the Lord's Supper, and to prayer.
Speaker 2:And a deep sense of awe came over them all, and the apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders. Yeah. And the believers met together in one place, shared everything they had, sold their property, possessions, shared the money with those in need, worshiped together at the temple, met in homes for Lord's Supper, shared their meals with great joy and generosity, all the while praising God, enjoying the goodwill of all the people, and each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved. And so what we see here, and then you begin to watch as the mission, and as the church expands, and you see healing, you see healing. You see the Apostle Paul healed of his blindness, and you see healing, and healing, and miracle, and miracle, and miracle.
Speaker 2:And miracle, I really believe miracles are unlocked with mission.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That they're inescapably tied.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Miracles are not a dead end. Yeah. Miracles are to have a purpose. And just a thought about miracles, I wanna do some theological work. One of the great theologians that helped me with some of this stuff was N.
Speaker 2:T. Wright, who is an Anglican bishop, and a great theologian who's done incredible work on the resurrection of Christ. And again, like any theologian, you know, there may be some areas where we disagree, or some angles that I would take differently, but incredible work on miracles, incredible work on the resurrection. He says miracles are appetizers, or this is my language. Miracles are appetizers preparing us for the full course.
Speaker 2:Okay? Picture it this way, and another way to say it is miracles are signposts screaming that God is near. I think that's his language. Miracles are appetizers, okay? So like, any time someone is healed Yes.
Speaker 2:It is a signpost saying, one day we will all be healed. Right. It is a way of rejecting the curse in that moment, at that spot. It is not saying that we need to live in denial that we're in a broken world.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:We are in a broken world.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Death is a part of reality, and pain and disease, that's a part of reality. And so it's a broken theology that would say, if you are sick, you have a lack of faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, you're in a broken world.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But they're signposts, they're appetizers. And so we can look forward to the day when all chronic pain is gone. We can look forward to the day when all the blind will see, where all those who cannot walk will stand up and run. Yeah. They're signposts screaming, number one, this is the way it will be, and guess what, because you're seeing this
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:He's near. Yeah. It's coming. That day is coming.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:And we're looking forward to that day happening. It is the now and the not yet. Right. We live in the now, but we have our eyes on the not yet. Another thing is, and it's kind of a way of God saying, I'm near.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a signpost saying, the kingdom is coming, the kingdom is here.
Speaker 1:That's so sweet.
Speaker 2:I'm near. I'm with you. I see you. But, again, the lack of that healing is not I'm far. Right.
Speaker 2:He is near, but it's a way that it breaks through.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It breaks through.
Speaker 1:Well, and here's the reality. Except for what? Elisha, who else went up in a chariot of
Speaker 2:fire? Right.
Speaker 1:Except for that rare circumstance. Every human being ever born, because of Genesis chapter three, we all experience physical death.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Either through injury, through illness, we experience that that physical death of aging. And so the reality is is that when God heals a disease on earth, when God heals an injury or a sickness or as we're gonna talk about, you know, even a demonic oppression, whatever the thing is that he heals, it is. It's that signpost that Jesus draws near, and this is what is coming. And, I think it's so beautiful if you're praying over someone and if God heals them, the opportunity is to say, God drew near. Yes.
Speaker 1:You experienced the presence of God.
Speaker 2:Is not about you. Is not about you. Right. It is not about the person who prayed No. Or laid hands Right.
Speaker 2:Or anointed with oil.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:It is not about you. As a matter of fact, what we've experienced is the power of the subtlety of the deliverer.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And we were talking to somebody, I'm trying to remember who it was, that was talking about how they just said, hey, if if I believe that somebody wants to be healed today, let's just see what happens.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And he just kinda sat down
Speaker 1:and Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it just kinda happened.
Speaker 1:Started praying.
Speaker 2:Started praying, and people were healed.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a that's a big
Speaker 2:piece Wasn't of flamboyant? Was it showy?
Speaker 1:The person praying and even if that person has the gift of healing, and that is one of the gifts.
Speaker 2:It is one of the gifts.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We can read that in a moment. Has the gift of healing. Whoever it is praying, you are simply the messenger. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:God is the one delivering.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:You're delivering the message. God's the one that is sending it. Yeah. Right? He is you are delivering the package.
Speaker 1:God is the one who heals.
Speaker 2:So good. And, you know, we live in a predictable world. A predictable world is that it's broken. Yeah. And miracles interrupt our predictable world with an unpredictable God.
Speaker 2:I think that's a good way to say it, because it's not normative that Christians never get sick. That's not the norm. Right. It's actually normal that we're headed toward death and decay. That's our default setting.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But God will interrupt it. And miracles also, when I think about the first century church, they were in awe. And many times when people would see the miracles Jesus performed, they were amazed. Miracles create an appetite, feeding our wonder.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You know? And and it devours the ordinary. Yeah. And this is important because I wanna express this thought that miracles help us live in this, you know, when children watch a movie and they wanna see this amazing thing happen.
Speaker 2:You know, they wanna see they're filled with wonder at what they're watching on the screen. Well, God's saying, hey, that's not reserved for entertainment. Your life can be filled with wonder, and these are moments that unlock
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And you're not just having to live in the ordinary, man. Have a life that, oh, there it is.
Speaker 1:Anticipate the hand of God. Anticipate the miracles that God's gonna do all throughout your life. And some of the miracles, we become, just so used to just not acknowledging God and the good that we don't see that even the, quote, smaller miracles that are just as miraculous that God has done for us. I wanna go back to the thought you shared on mission, miracles being directly tied to mission. And this is one of the verses, that I studied in John chapter 14.
Speaker 1:This is Jesus talking where he said, I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done and even greater works because I'm going to be with the father. You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it so that the here's the reason, the why, so that the son can bring glory Yes. To the father. Yes. Ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Speaker 1:There's a lot there. But the first word I wanna say is in verse 12, anyone who believes in me. It didn't just say the 12 disciples, didn't say the apostles, it didn't say only in that first century church, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have
Speaker 2:no way to miss that. No. I mean, there's no way to miss that. And I believe, again, we're just, to me it's just so sad to limit yourself.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And to live at a lower level where you're just like taking that off the the field.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's like, I've got this this incredible player, and I just bench the player. And my life is meant to win. Wow. Man, get the player on the field. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's the miraculous, the healing. Absolutely. And you're right, the purpose is the glory of God. And there's a story in Luke chapter 17, I'll read it. One of them, Jesus healed 10 people, and he said one of them, when he saw that he was healed, came back to Jesus shouting, praise God, and he fell at the ground at Jesus' feet, thanking him for what he had done.
Speaker 2:This man was a Samaritan. And Jesus asked, didn't I heal 10 men? Where are the other nine? Has no one returned to give glory to God except this foreigner? And Jesus said to him, stand up and go, your faith has healed you.
Speaker 2:I mean, there it is. And you know, that's Jesus rightly saying, I am God and deserve praise. I am God and deserve glory.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And here the man was accurately, that's the point. And that's why, you know, never let a miracle go to waste by just letting it end with you. Yeah. A miracle is not a cul de sac. It doesn't end with you.
Speaker 2:A miracle is to flow through you to build the faith and the belief That's right. In others. Yes. You'd see people being healed, and people being saved. And, you know, there's cynics out there.
Speaker 2:They're like, oh, well that's just, you know, that's not Well, is in the Bible. In the Bible, people were healed, and that gave them the saving faith they needed.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they were saved. And that's what we're seeing on the mission field.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And some people are real comfortable with that happening in Africa. But they're scared of it in America. Right. And that bothers me.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes.
Speaker 2:Really bothers want
Speaker 1:all of who he is.
Speaker 2:And and it and it bothers me, Susan, because we have a track record. I wanna bring some receipts from Keystone Church of some healings that have happened, and I wanna give God the glory for But these are just some. We, and these have all been publicly shared. And when I say publicly shared, the person stood in front of the church and shared it, or they had stood in front of us and shared their story. This is this is not just something that came in on an email.
Speaker 2:These these have been confirmed. Yeah. We had someone that had tumors in her body. We prayed, laid hands, gone. Medically gone, the doctors checked it, gone.
Speaker 2:We had one of our wonderful, wonderful servant leaders, her mother was going in for heart surgery. She was at the hospital, and it was a dangerous surgery for the age of the mother, and they went in, they opened her up, and then they closed her up immediately. The doctors came to our servant leader, our wonderful person, here at Keystone, and she thought so soon she thought maybe her mother had died on the table. They said, we open her up, and it's totally been healed. Not their language, but that was her life.
Speaker 1:There was no hole in
Speaker 2:her There was no hole in her heart. It was gone. And again, they were doing surgery for a reason. Then we had healing of lupus medical. You and I know who this is, they're still walking around, healed today.
Speaker 2:We had a son whose hearing was totally healed, miraculously. We have someone at at women's conference whose back pain, pop pop pop pop pop pop. She had healing right there. Yeah. Boom.
Speaker 2:Just like that. And then we checked in later. I mean, really a year later before we had her share her story. And she was able in front of the church to share at our revival night, share pictures from the doctor of how the change that had happened. We had recently someone whose back had been healed.
Speaker 2:Miraculously, doctors couldn't figure it out, and boom, he was healed. Wept in front of the church as he stood healed. And I mean, there's so many more stories. So many stories. But these are receipts, man.
Speaker 2:And and I'm telling you, we have seen it.
Speaker 1:Yes. We have seen it, and we desire more.
Speaker 2:This isn't a stretch. No.
Speaker 1:No. We we know these people. We love these people, and we've seen God's hand, and we know this is who God is. And I I wanna circle back to your Luke 17 story, those 10 lepers, because this is gonna blow your mind. You probably already know this.
Speaker 1:But I didn't know this. When I was studying that I spoke on that at one point. And when I was studying that, I went because it perplexed me that the 10 guys 10 lepers walked away. I'm assuming they were all guys.
Speaker 2:10 It says 10 men.
Speaker 1:Okay. The 10 men walk away, and they have been healed. It says they've been cleansed and but they later, it says that they've been healed. He was healed of the leprosy. Well, then at the end, the only the one guy comes back, and he comes back, And Jesus is like, where's the other 10, like you said?
Speaker 1:But then he says, you know what? Your faith has healed you. Well, there's that word healed again. I thought you were already healed of your leprosy. What do you mean healed?
Speaker 1:So I did a deep dive in the Greek words.
Speaker 2:Awesome.
Speaker 1:And the first word applying to all 10 of them was a cleansing, a healing of the physical disease. Mhmm. But the guy who came back with gratitude in his heart because he recognized who Jesus was, that guy, because of his faith, the word healed that Jesus used for him was eternal. It was salvation.
Speaker 2:That's the point.
Speaker 1:The point is, yes, that physical healing is a gift from God, but spiritual healing is the ultimate goal. It's always the ultimate goal. It's not the physical, although that is a gift, and we celebrate, and we praise God for it. How kind. But we also understand it's temporary, this side of heaven, that the ultimate healing is the spiritual healing, restoration in our relationship with Jesus.
Speaker 2:You know, that's another truth about miracles, or healing, particularly, is all healing is temporary. Yeah. If you look at it. Yeah. All healing is temporary.
Speaker 2:For example, and you say, well, wait a second. Let me back up. There are some people that have said, hey, I experienced healing. I had relief. Yeah.
Speaker 2:A year later, I had a bad report.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so was that a healing? And I'd say, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:God gave you a reprieve. God gave you a grace. God delayed, or God God gave you a rest
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:From that. Don't be discouraged
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:If later you have another problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I say all miracles are temporary. Look at Lazarus. Lazarus, there was a miracle of him conquering death. Jesus called him from the grave. Well, Lazarus is not doing a book signing today No.
Speaker 2:At Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 1:He's not.
Speaker 2:He's not doing, he's not walking around saying, hey, guys, I remember two thousand years ago, Jesus, he died. He eventually
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Gave into the reality of our broken world, and that was death. So what was the point? Lazarus' death was pointing to something. Yes. Like you said, it was the glory of God.
Speaker 2:Right. And it was to bring people closer into into saving faith
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:With God.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that's why we don't grip the miracle.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:We thank God for
Speaker 2:the miracle.
Speaker 1:We do yeah.
Speaker 2:Grip Grip the
Speaker 1:Grip the
Speaker 2:manifestation. It's the master.
Speaker 1:Yes. And I it takes me to the a verse that is both a life verse for me, and it's also very hard verse for me that if you grip this life, you will lose it. But if you let go of this life for my sake, then you will find it. So if I grip my life, I'm gonna lose it anyway. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And I'm gonna my emotional and spiritual health is gonna go down with it. Mhmm. But when I release it and understand that the I'm living in a story that's bigger than me and that this world that I live in currently is not the end all be all. I am passing through. The bible says, as a child of God, I am passing through.
Speaker 1:It's not even my home. Mhmm. But as I'm passing through, I have a God who cares for me. I have a god who wants to show up in miraculous ways. And I have a god who's trustworthy even if his answer to my prayer is no Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Or not right now.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:He's still good. He's still God. You can still trust him, and you can still pray in faith for miracles.
Speaker 2:Yes. We've prayed for people for years.
Speaker 1:People are so all or nothing sometimes. They're like, well, you know what? I prayed for this, and God didn't answer. So you know what? God just doesn't care about prayer.
Speaker 1:It's not that big of a deal. We do not understand God. Right. We do not understand the power and the and the mandate he's given us to engage with him in relationship and in prayer.
Speaker 2:The apostle Paul says that I had a thorn in my flesh. We don't know what that means. There's ideas, but we don't know.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:There was a thorn in my flesh, and I asked God to remove it, and God said no. Right. To to Paul.
Speaker 1:To Paul.
Speaker 2:Okay? There's no lack of faith with Paul. There's no lack of holiness with Paul. There's God said no. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So God will say this, when you pray for a healing, there's three potential answers. No, yes, or not now. Yes. Those are the three opportunities for you. Those are the three doors.
Speaker 2:And sometimes he's saying, no. That's not gonna happen. Sometimes he's saying, yes. Yes. Right here, right now.
Speaker 2:And sometimes he says, let my timing catch up to the fulfillment of that miracle.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you can't have this conversation without tackling something challenging. And I have quite a few thoughts and even from my research, just some help. But what about when God does not heal? Does that mean that it's my sin?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Or my lack of faith? Why am I sick? Is really the the bigger question is why am I sick? And this is a an important question, and it's a complex question, but there's also answer for it. And there's answer found in the word of god for it.
Speaker 1:Any thoughts that you just have off the bat?
Speaker 2:Well, when we were talking about a broken world, that's where I would go. I would just say, yes. I mean, we are all in that default setting of a broken world. And so why? Why why have why would God say no or not yet?
Speaker 2:Well, because we are in a broken world, and the default setting is not healed. The default setting is not healed. Anytime we get healed, it's a gift from God. Right. Right.
Speaker 2:That's that's my answer.
Speaker 1:Right. And I as I looked at that and in line with that, I'll read Matthew four. Again, Jesus traveling, and he gives us insight into this. He says well, he's traveling. Jesus traveled through the region of Galilee, teaching in the synagogues and announcing the good news about the kingdom.
Speaker 1:That's once again, he's on mission Yep. Announcing the good news of the kingdom, and he healed every kind of disease and illness. News about him spread as far as Syria, and people soon began bringing to him all who were sick. Can you imagine? Oh.
Speaker 1:Oh, they're bringing their their loved ones, their babies, their spouse, their their people. And listen to this. And whatever their sickness or disease Now I want you to hear this sentence because this is differentiating different types of sickness. And to me, this is very interesting, and maybe it's my counselor hat. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I love to get to the root of things.
Speaker 2:Let's go.
Speaker 1:Let's expose do and diagnose, and so God is giving us insight into different types of things that need healing. And what and whatever their sickness or disease or if they were demon possessed or epileptic or paralyzed, he healed them all. So there's a lot of different things needing healing. And what is the root of the sickness? The first thing that I found that you just said was broken world.
Speaker 1:Right? We live in a messed up, broken post Genesis three world, and I thought about Timothy where Paul said, hey, Timothy, don't just drink water only. Use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. Yeah. Sometimes we just battle ailments.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Paul was being homeopathic there. He's he's basically saying
Speaker 1:He was. He was. He was just saying, hey. This will help settle your stomach a little bit. So that's one.
Speaker 1:This is the there's three this is what I found as I deep did the
Speaker 2:Right. Physical And can I make a note on that?
Speaker 1:Oh,
Speaker 2:yeah. It's not just get healing through you don't you're not just healed through supernatural means. You know, Paul's like, hey, do this, maybe you'll feel better. Yes. Also, hey, God can heal through the skilled hands of a surgeon.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, any healing is a gift from God.
Speaker 1:And it really, exposes what do you believe when you think about God. Because in James, the bible says, every good and perfect gift is a gift coming down from the heavenly father, Father And
Speaker 2:you know, like, I had a little cancer spot on my nose. Yeah. And so they went in and dug it out, and then they had to go back in and dug out even more, and it created a problem on my nose. So right then in the moment, and this is common for men who've, or women who've experienced this, but but then they basically did a skin graft over it, and lots of stitches, and just basically at that point, here's the revelation. Okay, the doctor has done what the doctor can do, now it's time for God to do his work.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's time for God to do his work Yeah. To heal that nose, and I don't know, what do you think?
Speaker 1:Better and better.
Speaker 2:Yet, it's better and It's a miracle. It's a I say, hey, that's a God, thank you for healing that. Thank you for touching that. Thank you that I'm not, you know, still in a in a wound season. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But thank you. You've done that. I give him glory for that.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a miracle that the body can self heal because God created it to do that. Bingo. And it's a miracle that there are doctors who know how to detect and to treat a a cancer spot on someone's face. Like, that's a miracle that the Lord gives that revelation.
Speaker 2:But we've had a doctor that said before, okay. I've done what I can do. Now we're gonna let God do what his will do what he can
Speaker 1:do. And so it it's incredible. And it again, do you believe that every good and perfect gift comes from God? If you do, then you'll see his miracles Mhmm. All over your life.
Speaker 2:And that, like we said, it feeds that wonder. Yes. And I think we're missing it. We're so cynical. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Everything needs to be black and white. Everything needs to so explainable. No. Yeah. There is they were filled with the awe of God.
Speaker 1:The awe of God. And so where does it come from? Where does sickness come from? Broken worlds. That is just one reality is we live in a broken world and things break bad, and our bodies, all the things.
Speaker 1:But, also, sin. Sin
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Truly impacts us physically. And this is so important because we like to just say it's either or, it's both and. Sometimes you're sick and it has nothing to do with your sin. Other times, it very well may be connected. In Psalm 32, it exposes this connection, and it says, when I refused to confess my sin, my body wasted away, and I groaned all day long.
Speaker 1:Day and night, your hand of discipline was heavy on me. My strength this is physical. My strength evaporated like water in the summer heat. I've
Speaker 2:seen this so many times.
Speaker 1:I I see someone right now. I I see someone that bitterness twisted the heart of this person so profoundly that literally the face is impacted. You can see the face Digestion
Speaker 2:is impacted. You see people literally physically sin, they're carrying the weight, they're carrying the guilt, and maybe they're happy as they can be on the outside. And they're so happy to be, you know, high handedly sinning and and flaunting God's design, but man, you're watching them, and and it's just all of a sudden, it's just not pretty.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's so sad. Twists us, and and it's all of us, all of us, and an unconfessed sin. I have a praise story, and I I believe she will one day share it publicly. But I heard a a conference testimony of one of our amazing women who came down front to receive ministry and just confessed bitterness, deep, deep bitterness, deep, deep pain, and just getting all of that out at the altar. And right after that, there was a call for, if you have back pain, let's pray for your healing.
Speaker 1:And she she thought, well, I'm gonna pray again and pray over her back. And from that point till I see her, days later, she has zero pain. Zero pain. And she said her words were, I believe it was connected to the bitterness because I have been experiencing this this pain for so long.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I've been bitter for so long. And it's just it's bible.
Speaker 2:You know? And and though the our culture will try to call it psychosomatic symptoms. How about just sin? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like sometimes it's just Yeah. Your body is tied to the choices that you make. And what we know about the nature of sin is when I am sinning with the high hand, now we all sin, but when I'm choosing a sin, you know, when I'm, that you are voluntarily saying, I mean, of act of the will, I remove myself from the umbrella of anointing, favor, and And so when you your body will, as as David wrote in the Psalms, your body will waste away.
Speaker 1:Wow. That's why I just said that. Psychosomatic. Because when I was a sophomore in college is when I was finally turning back to the Lord. Yep.
Speaker 1:And it all of the sin, all of the years of me running from God, it was kinda finally having its toll on my on my mind, my heart, and I was in that crisis mode of turning back to God. I will never forget. It was the first semester of my sophomore year. I went to four different doctors because I was breaking out in hives, whelps. I would I would just itch night and day.
Speaker 1:I would itch in the shower. It was it was honestly three months of true misery. And every doctor would say, I think it's just psychosomatic. We've run labs. We've run tests.
Speaker 1:I think it's psychosomatic. It's psychosomatic. And it was me where God was purging the sin out of my life, and it was manifesting all over my body. I will never forget it. And it's just the power again.
Speaker 1:It builds my faith in the sense that God's word's true. Yes. God's word is true and that not every sickness is sin.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But let's deal with the sin that's causing sickness.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1:Let's expose and ask the Lord to reveal it.
Speaker 2:And sickness is an opportunity to evaluate your life.
Speaker 1:Every time.
Speaker 2:Is there anything here? Yes. Is there anything here? Right. I mean, our kids were rebelling, the first place we would turn is ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And we've done that.
Speaker 1:Yes. We have.
Speaker 2:And if the and same thing with the with the illness. Okay. So let's get real prac go ahead.
Speaker 1:One final one final thing. So broken world, what's the root?
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Sin is another root, but here's one more that you cannot miss. Otherwise, you're just a sitting target. Demonic activity. Mhmm. It's all over the Bible.
Speaker 1:And it talked about how Jesus would walk around healing people from demonic possession. And I won't take the time right now to go into it, although it absolutely fascinates me, the different accounts. Some of it was possession and using words like in inside of them. Other the words were oppression. And I will give you that one.
Speaker 1:It was making them distressed or anxious, keeping them in subjection and hardship. There's a difference. There's possession. There's oppression. Either way, it's the agitating force.
Speaker 1:Sometimes the tormenting force of what we believe in the scriptures. Ephesians chapter six is not a battle of flesh and blood, meaning just not just people. Right on. But it's a battle with darkness, with spirits, spiritual realm, dark beings that torment. And when we understand that, we don't live in this fear or this heightened curiosity, so to speak.
Speaker 1:We just acknowledge what the scriptures say, and we fight in the name of Jesus. And there are times when you may be praying over someone or you yourself may need prayer to come against the spiritual oppression that is impacting your body physically, your mind mentally
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And certainly your relationships and circumstances in your life. But these are some of the roots that when we understand that, it changes the way we pray.
Speaker 2:Amen.
Speaker 1:And it changes, I believe, the miracles we see.
Speaker 2:In the last category you said there, I love broken world, sin, and demonic. I think that for me, as I look on my journey, I was so careful not to see a demon under every bush. Right. I swung to the opposite extreme, where maybe I didn't see enough.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And God has really corrected that when I began to study spiritual warfare early on. Yeah. And God really opened me up against cynicism. And again, I don't wanna swing to the other where you're you're a little weird, where you see it everywhere
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And it's not just not true. But at the same time, man, I want to be open, because I want to be a good pastor. I want to be a somewhat and and I know everybody wants to be a good parent
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And a good friend, to be able to say, hey, think there's something spiritual going on here. And and and one of the answers is, hey, man, have you opened the door to the demonic in your life in some way?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, and it's exactly what you said. I think I also grew up in a tradition where it was either these extremes of, you know, really not acknowledging the demonic, or just super super what's sensationalizing it.
Speaker 2:Sensationalizing it.
Speaker 1:And the reality that the bible paints is it just is. Yeah. It's part of our existence.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Don't be enamored with it.
Speaker 1:Don't be enamored with it, but don't dismiss it. Right. And I think that our culture also plays into this mentality with the movies that are written and sensationalizing Satan and either making him a a comedic joke or, you know, just horror films.
Speaker 2:Unstoppable force.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, make believe, like, one of the movies of just make believe. But the truth is, God says it's real. That realm is real. Yep.
Speaker 1:And just like you're walking around in life, you may be in the middle of New York City where people are everywhere, or you may be in the middle of a forest where there's no one. I believe in the demonic realm. It just it's moving around. They're beings, and sometimes you may be encountering some, other times you may not. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And just having eyes to see Mhmm. And being a person of prayer, not to be scared
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Not to be intimidated, but to also understand that the demonic does have power, but the authority of Jesus is always more powerful.
Speaker 2:So good. So some steps, some some quick steps. James five, is anyone among you suffering?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders, spiritual leadership Yes.
Speaker 2:Of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, pray for one another that you may be healed, to to your point. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's so powerful because God invites us to partner with him. This is something I would say to whoever's listening, because in first in first Corinthians, that's where we see a list of people who have all kinds of different gifts, and one of them talks about those who have the gift of healing. I know for me, I don't think of myself as someone who has the gift of healing, but maybe it was you who said this. Some people have the gift of evangelism.
Speaker 1:But just because you don't have the gift of evangelism doesn't mean you don't evangelize. Yeah. You still tell people your story of Jesus.
Speaker 2:Called to share.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Some have this extraordinary harvest gift.
Speaker 1:Upon them. And when it comes to healing, same thing. Yeah. If you don't quote have the gift of healing, and by the way, you don't know, God may unlock that in your life Exactly. Through your faith and through your relationship with him.
Speaker 1:But if you don't have that gift, you're still called to pray in faith for people to be healed. Mhmm. It's beautiful.
Speaker 2:And at Keystone, you'll see some things here that we do, and we believe. For example, anointing with oil. There's not supernatural power in the oil. It's not like we got it from this one tree in Israel that is sanctioned by God, that this is the one you use. It's not that, it is the symbol of the fat of the favor of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oil is fat, Oil is flavor. And oil unlocks life, and oil was deeply ingrained in their culture. And so when we would, if we were to dab oil on your forehead as we prayed over you, it is a sign, it's a symbol, almost akin to communion. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and and baptism. These are pointing to things, but they're deeply spiritual.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:They have deep meaning.
Speaker 1:And it's an act of faith.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:To do that, to anoint someone with oil, it says, I believe what the bible says. Yeah. He says anoint with oil, I'm going to anoint with oil. Right. And we trust God.
Speaker 1:Whether his answer is yes, no, or not yet, we trust God.
Speaker 2:If you don't have oil handy, do you not pray? No. You do pray.
Speaker 1:Absolutely pray.
Speaker 2:Absolutely you pray.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely you pray. So these are some of the steps of I would also say, when you pray for someone to be healed, pray boldly as if it is it is to happen. Like, pray in partnership with God. Don't throw so many pillows. Oh God, I mean, maybe if you kinda want to Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry for asking. No, don't do that. No. Pray boldly. God, you are the healer God.
Speaker 2:We believe you want us all to be healed. One day, we will all be healed. Will you heal this person?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Pray boldly. Pray in faith. Someone take it a step further. Pray as if it has already happened. I'm kind of learning about that.
Speaker 2:I I I have some some thoughts on that, but I think that we're we're
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Threading needles here. But the point is, we are not a a word of faith like you speak it, and it shall be done.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But more of a, hey, God, we wanna agree with you. Is it your will? Yes. Well, we're gonna pray as if it is always your will Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:For everyone to be healed. But we trust you, God. Yes. And we love you. Yes.
Speaker 2:And we trust you, but we pray, God, holy spirit power. The way I pray when I pray for someone to be healed, I'm intent. My my heart is engaged. We even had a healing thing recently where we were praying for a tumor to be removed, and then they went and scanned, and it was gone. And we were in their home recently.
Speaker 2:Yes. And it, when I pray, I pray just in my walk with the Lord, whether I was dealing with something supernatural, spiritual, I pray the blood of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I pray the blood, I'm coming to you, God, as a son of the most high God, bought by the blood of Jesus Christ, the sweet sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and it is by that merit I come to you in the power of the Holy Spirit, and I pray by the blood of Jesus Christ for the resurrection power So good. To touch this person here. Mhmm. We pray for touching here. And maybe somebody will receive that right now.
Speaker 1:Right now. You may need healing right now in your life. And and I believe as you pray for others and as you receive prayer, understanding and that you can hear from God. He will he will whisper to his children that have ears to hear. And so when you think, I don't know what to pray.
Speaker 1:Is this a sickness because it's just a broken world? Is there sin attached here? Because that's a different kind of prayer, that God reveal that sin so there can be confession and repentance and freedom. Or, Lord, is there a demonic presence? Is there a demonic spirit, the Bible would call it, that is oppressing this person, this beloved person, or even possessing this created person by God?
Speaker 1:We have the ability as God's children to partner with the God of the universe who saved our souls, Jesus himself who loves us, gives us power. We have the opportunity to partner in praying for healing.
Speaker 2:We'll be talking about this more
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:As the as the as the overflow continues. I'd love any other last thoughts. You've got front and back, page after page over there. We're not gonna cover it all. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But as we wrap up, anything else that you got there that you just like, I gotta say this one thing?
Speaker 1:Oh, you're so great. I I think I did say just some of the highlights. I just I believe as we wrap up, you know, we would love honestly to pray for you right now. If you need healing
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Can we just do that to the person listening? Mhmm. Would you just in fact, if you're listening and you are sick today, would you just maybe even in faith put your hands out?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:As just to act between you and God privately of, Lord, I receive this prayer in faith.
Speaker 2:May do it with you right now?
Speaker 1:And let's just pray for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Holy spirit of God, we pray for healing. We pray that you would touch. Yes. God, we pray that you would touch this person.
Speaker 2:Yes. And right now, we're praying specifically for a physical healing.
Speaker 1:Yes, God.
Speaker 2:God, we're praying that you would touch a back. God, we pray that you would touch a mind. I pray that you would touch someone's head, someone's neck. God, touch someone's knees, their hips, God, their feet, God, pray, touch their stomach, God. We pray, God, would you touch someone's throat.
Speaker 2:Father, pray, God, whoever is listening, pray, holy spirit of God, by the blood of Jesus Christ, would you just apply that resurrection power, and we would celebrate, we would celebrate this healing, God. I pray for someone that receives healing. Right now, we pray that they would tell somebody. Yes. Pray that they'd celebrate with somebody.
Speaker 2:And that others' faith would be built because of the faith touch that they've received here. God, we pray, we believe somebody through this message, through this overflow, will receive a healing. God, I pray for a financial miracle. God, I pray for a relational miracle. And I pray that you would get the glory.
Speaker 2:And I pray, God, that we'd be closer to you and that we'd build the faith of others as a result. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. Alright.
Speaker 2:Yes. Powerful stuff.
Speaker 1:It's so good.
Speaker 2:And we'll see you next time on The Overflow.