Marketing and business strategy podcast for executives and marketing leaders who want to improve outcomes from marketing.
Marketing veterans Devin Bramhall (Animalz, Help Scout) & Margaret Kelsey (InVision, OpenView) use their combined 20+ years of experience to increase the business impact of marketing by creating shared understanding of its purpose and outcomes among marketing leaders, founders/CEOs & others in the C-suite.
Created in partnership with Share Your Genius
An award-winning B2B podcast production company: https://www.shareyourgenius.com/
Devin Bramhall [00:00:01]:
I think marketers should be founder co-founders, not CTOs. Like I'm allowed to have that thought and other people are too. And I think that's what, like, what is exciting to me about the now of content, where it isn't about being the brand or the person who's like, this is the way that you do it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:22]:
Fame feels also like it's about control, right? Like, I need to amass this followers and I need to make sure that this looks right and this is whatever and influences. I'm going to give you the right answer and hope that you can then do the right thing with it.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:35]:
There is a part of me also who likes having a spotlight feeling right. That feeling of in certain circumstances, sometimes being on a standing out from those around me.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:48]:
I'm Margaret Kelsey.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:49]:
And I'm Devin Bramhall.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:50]:
And this is Don't Say Content.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:53]:
A show created in partnership with Share Your Genius.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:56]:
I had this. I like pick a theme every year, and last year was audacity. This year was calm. I think the universe thought because like last year I was like, audacity. And it presented me with scenarios where I could practice being audacious.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:10]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:11]:
And so then I said, this is the year of calm and I feel like the universe is giving me experiences to practice being calm. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. So. So I need to flip and reframe. I tried to now say the universe supports me with calm clarity. I'm trying to do that instead of the universe is testing me with experiences for me to remain calm in because I don't want that this year.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:39]:
Well, I will say though, that has been like a lot of my mindset shift towards the end of last year and early this year was like, I can't control the world around me. All I can control is how I react to it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:52]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:53]:
And so it is helping me a lot, like.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:56]:
You're stuffy too.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:57]:
Yeah, I know. It's. It never ends. I just like am always tired and feeling like crap since the new year began. It's great. No, but like, I've been working more on how I react to things internally and externally. And that is really providing me, incidentally with a lot of calm. So I'm like, well, I picked a fight with my friend the other day.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:18]:
Cause I was like, wait, I had fake calm before because I put up with behaviors I didn't like and that weren't good. And it's caused a lot of agitation in my life recently, but it's actually been good. Agitation. Because I don't want somebody in my life, they're gonna gaslight me and da, da, da. I was like, no. Bye. And it's weird because, like, once I decided I felt better about it, I was like, oh, that's how you get there. You have to, like, recalibrate.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:42]:
Not just how you react, but how you think about things.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:45]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:46]:
And I'm like, oh.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:48]:
But I also feel like I've done a lot of that work, so I don't want to practice anymore.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:53]:
Universe says you gotta, I guess.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:55]:
No, I'm gonna pick a new team.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:58]:
Bossy little bitch.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:59]:
I'm gonna pick a new theme.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:00]:
There we go. This is interesting that we're talking about influence versus fame right now for two reasons. One, we tried to record it before.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:09]:
And we failed miserably and just did a bonus episode because we couldn't keep ourselves in line.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:15]:
In line?
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:15]:
Yeah, we were out of line.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:17]:
We supported each other in being off-topic for an hour. But then also, if you think about the place that we're in in terms of the country, and I'm like, oh, interesting. I would say influence and fame have merged, and it's effing scary. So I don't want to talk at all about that, but it just occurred to me as we were kicking this off, I was like, oh, a combination of influence and fame, and it's scary.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:49]:
Yeah. And, yeah, context. We're recording this the day after the inauguration. Even though this goes out in, I think, February or maybe even March.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:59]:
I know. Who knows if any of this will be real by then?
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:03]:
So this, we'll be in jail.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:05]:
Yeah, maybe I'll be in jail. You know, there's not a lot of people in my life who have said to me, one, they're like, oh, I could totally see you getting arrested. And two, they're like, I would love to see you get arrested.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:22]:
In what context are these conversations happening?
Devin Bramhall [00:04:25]:
I think we're talking about, like, who I am as a person and how I act.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:31]:
Unlawful.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:32]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:34]:
I don't know if that's a compliment or not, but.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:40]:
I don't. I didn't take it that way. I took it as interesting.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:44]:
I saw this thing about a good answer to, like, those types of things is what an interesting thing to say out loud. It's like, the best response when someone says something and you don't know if it's not a compliment or a dig. You just say, what an interesting thing to say out loud.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:01]:
Actually, there's another phrase that I learned from my friend Josh at Planetary I was telling him about my newsletter idea and he was like, oh, that reminds me of the phrase, best of luck on your future endeavors. Or no, he said you should call it that. Oh. Because it basically means, like, f you. And I made that the thing. I. I kept the title that I had chosen because it means shut the fuck up in French. But then the tagline is best of luck on your future endeavors because I was like, they go together.
Margaret Kelsey [00:05:36]:
They really do. Yeah. I think that is so funny. That is like a professional way to say, sayonara, suckers.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:43]:
It's like, fuck you, bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:05:44]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:45]:
Which is sort of how I feel in general lately.
Margaret Kelsey [00:05:47]:
Best of luck on your future endeavors. Specifically ones that don't include me.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:52]:
Yeah. There's so much. There's so much. So. Okay. Influence versus fame. This actually came about from my goals post-cancer last year.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:05]:
And we do touch on it briefly in the bonus episode, I think.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:12]:
Well, basically I had three areas I wanted to focus on for myself. And at first, this third one represented itself as fame because I was like getting, you know, the book thing was in progress. It was when I said, I want to make money off of who I am as a person.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:31]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:32]:
And not completely, but like, I wanted to add that revenue stream because that feels like play to me, right? And then the more I started thinking about it, the more I was like, I don't want fame. Because when I thought about fame, I thought about having to post all the time. I thought about having to follow rules. I thought about like, you know, algorithms.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:54]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:54]:
And being a public figure.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:56]:
Yeah. And. And just I got really stressed out. But there is a part of me also who likes having a spotlight feeling, right? That feeling of in certain circumstances, sometimes being on a. Standing out from those around me.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:14]:
Shut up, you jerks. I'm talking. Is that what it is? Is it like those moments of spotlight feel like everyone else can quiet down and you get to actually be heard?
Devin Bramhall [00:07:28]:
No. That's the weird thing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:31]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:32]:
It was like how I used to run events in Boston. I would get up sometimes carrying a megaphone and get up there and talk. But oftentimes I was teeing up somebody else, right? And so abstracting that out. It's like, I like when people come to me asking for recommendations. I. It gets.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:55]:
Allows me to feel helpful, which I love. We talked about this before. I'm like, if Devin could marry a rich man, she would give away a hundred percent of her time and feel great.
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:05]:
It's that Cher quote, mom, I am a rich man. Have you seen that? No, there's an interview with Cher, and she's talking about how her mom used to say, oh, you need to marry a rich man. And Cher was like, mom, I am a rich man.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:22]:
I just realized mine's a strategic move at this point because cancer wiped out my energy, like, my physical energy. And I don't like charging. I don't know why. I'm like, I just want to help people who don't have money.
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:36]:
Your ICP is can't pay.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:38]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:39]:
Individual who Can't Pay. It's an ICP. You got the acronyms mixed up. You're looking for an ideal. Was it Ideal Customer Persona, and you just look for an Individual Who Can't Pay. Oh, that's good.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:01]:
But also like. Yes. Is there, like a fund for that? Yeah. So anyway, so I started thinking about that, and I was. I thought, oh, the helpfulness that I enjoy, plus the feeling of exclusivity in some way, which doesn't always have to be public, because if I want to be on stage in public, I just create a space for myself and do it, and people come. And that's where the influence is.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:28]:
Yeah, right.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:30]:
It's like, if I want that moment, I can create it for myself. I don't need to rely on anyone else.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:34]:
Yeah, and it's not that you're chasing then those moments that with enough influence, you can pick and choose how much visibility you want in any given scenario. And that is powerful, right? Rather than feeling like you always have to be visible, you always have to be on.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:51]:
Yeah. And I even started. This is a very basic example, but even with LinkedIn, because I don't, you know, I'm. I'm a solopreneur, so I don't have help. So when I post on LinkedIn, for example, algorithmically, consistency matters. See, I don't have time for that. And so what's cool about the influence part is it doesn't matter how often I post, right?
Devin Bramhall [00:10:24]:
It's like when my post, my stuff gets seen. Now, it's not necessarily like hundreds of thousands, right? That's a different type of person with a different goal on LinkedIn. Mine is more about, you know, when I post. Someone must have sent my post out somewhere last week because it's like, I post, a lot of action happens. I get like a hundred connection requests. I get DMS about different things.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:49]:
I got a client recommend it. Like, if I take an action, activity happens. Even if outwardly it doesn't look like a lot.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:59]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:00]:
Yeah, and it's like, oh, my ratios are really good. So when I post, there's a lot of comments, which makes it worthwhile for me because I'm not doing it to see numbers. I like, want people to talk.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:13]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:14]:
And so that's how it shows up for me. Or an example of how it shows up for me is like, I want people calling me and being like, what should I do? Bonus if someday that makes me money.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:32]:
Step one, become influential. It's like that meme of draw the owl. And it's draw a circle. And then it's like. And the owl's just like perfectly drawn. And it's like, step two, you're like wait.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:47]:
You know what I should do? I should just put a paywall in front of any means of communicating with me. Just be like, listen, you're probably asking for my help anyway.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:56]:
Yeah, that sounds bearable.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:00]:
What about. What do you think about this? Like, this was. We've talked about it a lot, but remind everybody where you stand on this.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:06]:
I think that your distinction is spot on of, I would much rather be known, even behind the scenes, for the people that I have met before, that they can come to me and I give good advice and I can help out and those types of things. More so than needing to be everywhere. People recognize my face or whatever. And I think with this podcast too, I've said to you a bunch of times, I don't care if anyone listens, because the hour that we record and having our conversations and even before we recorded the podcast, when we would catch up and things like those conversations were worthwhile to me. I don't think I've ever had goals around that. But I also had this funny memory of when I was younger. I think it was in elementary school, we were doing like science fair.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:55]:
A've had this consistent feeling until recently, last couple years of my life, that I thought all the problems were solved and I thought everyone was smarter than me and that I was like, just catching up. And so there was like a long time where I'm like, why would anyone want to hear what I have to say about that? Or why would I have a unique point and perspective? And that's changed definitely in the last, I would say, probably five to 10 years of my life. But I definitely had this deep held belief as a child and growing up that everything was already solved for and everyone was way smarter than me. And I just was like, happy to be here.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:33]:
It's funny because I had a similar realization. Well, we've talked about what the specific realization that you're talking about, which is like Realizing that everything's made up, and you don't.
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:43]:
And no one knows anything.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:45]:
No one knows anything.
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:47]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:47]:
There's no universal knowledge. But on more recently, referring to the influence and fame thing, I finally figured out where that itch came from. I realized that it's really important to me to be heard. Thus my attraction to lots of people listening. And the reason is because I care about change actually happening. So like when people ask me about something or what should I do is like I suddenly get this like anxiety inside. Like how am I going to make sure this happens now?
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:32]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:32]:
And it's something that obviously not useful or healthy and trying to walk that back. But I realized it's like an agitation where I'm like, no, no, people have to hear this because I want to see the change that I'm talking about.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:46]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:47]:
And then I realized recently that agitation goes away when I look around and realize I've surrounded myself with peers, at least in marketing, let's say, who believe the same thing. Not necessarily to the letter, you know, because that's not important to me. But like they see the same things, they have their own interpretations and observations about it that influence me and they're even disagreeing or like counterpointing. But there's like this fundamental alignment there. And I realized that's enough. That was when I was like, I don't need everyone. I just want to be around people who have a general mindset around this thing that's the same and are working towards it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:43]:
Did you feel early in your career you saw what needed to change or saw things that could have been done differently and weren't heard or listened or didn't have the influence within the organization to actually do any of that.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:00]:
I think that was my entire marketing career. And some of it's natural, right. So some of it is just a product of everybody has a boss, everyone is beholden to someone. I found it more interesting and educational when I was CEO because it was more about logic and, you know, strategy and being clever versus what. The things I couldn't change as a marketer were industry wide misogyny and you know, just a series of people who are given money to run companies who are terrible at running companies. And so it was the system that bugged me. And I would say it's still true today. Like we've talked about this.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:46]:
Nothing's really changed in our industry. Honestly, it's still there. It's just I feel calmer because there are people who listen to me and by way of my clients that satisfies the itch in me where I'm like, well, I can just help them do it better.
Margaret Kelsey [00:17:06]:
I think there was a really interesting moment when I went from being in house to advising where I was at this company. I was advising and I was doing an on site and sitting at the table with all the executives and I pointed something out. And I had a similar conversation at a different in house job where I had raised the same thing and nothing changed. And all of a sudden by being external to the organization and having them pay me to be there to do that of tell them what I was seeing and what could be done differently, it was like, okay, let's work on that, let's change that.
Devin Bramhall [00:17:45]:
Margaret says, so we have to do it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:17:48]:
And I was like, nothing has changed about who I am as a person except for the fact that now I am external to this organization and they're paying me for this. But isn't that what you also are doing for your employees is paying them for their expertise in and advice and ideas? It was the strangest thing. I was like, it was like a power trip. I'm like, oh my gosh. Like this is the way to actually be influential as you just have to not work for the organization.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:19]:
But I imagine so many other people have had that same experience. Like I'm sure you were one of them too. I certainly was. Where it was like there was always a Margaret coming in, telling my boss what to do, my boss coming to me and explaining to me something that he knew nothing about that I was.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:40]:
And then you're like, yeah, I've been asking to do that.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:42]:
Yep. And I remember how infuriating that was to me. And this is why I've never known what to call myself. Cause I'm like, okay, fine. I may come in and focus on one area of your company, but what I end up doing is putting things in the right place, including how it relates to founders perceptions of their own employees. Turning that around and being like, no, this person knows their shit. Like I wouldn't be able to do this without them. I'm actually relying on them heavily and you know, validating those people who are doing a great job.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:20]:
Because I can't do this all on my own. I mean, I can't. I can do a lot. Let's just, let's face it. I just realized I was like, there's very few people like me out there who can do as much as I can do competently and with great confidence and succeed at it at the same time. So fine. But I don't like to. I like to have other people be better at things than me.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:40]:
And so it's fun to work with other people.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:43]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:44]:
We. How does it feel going back now? So you were, you were out of house, now you're back in the house.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:54]:
I'm in house with somebody that I worked out of house with and established that relationship with in that advisor capacity for multiple years. So it doesn't feel as different of if I had joined a company that I had not understood or had built a relationship with the CEO with. So I feel really good about that right now. Of I'm still having conversations and pointing things out and being able to like align on that strategic level has been really helpful. But I think it's because it started as that advisor relationship and then went into the in house role. I think of like times when you're trying to be influential and maybe it's in a work setting or maybe it's in a different setting and there does seem to be this like a little bit of distance makes you more influential. You know what I mean?
Devin Bramhall [00:20:43]:
That must be because you think about all the folks who are quoting others that they really admire other founders, other, you know, people who have written authors. And so yeah, I do think. And that's why in like, to me there's a difference between influence and fame. But influence does inherently include aspects of fame and it has to because fame is in a way othering someone. This person is othered in a positive way. Typically, although fame doesn't necessarily mean you're famous positively, but there's you're othered. And I think that's that distance that you're talking about. I think what I learned in pursuing consulting and trying to figure out what these other revenue streams might be, I found that the choice between the two was easier when I thought about what I wanted to achieve and where I have energy.
Devin Bramhall [00:21:44]:
Like Jay Acunzo is a great example. I would say he's both. But like he's talked about before, like he likes. That's a dopamine hit for him, right? It's like that doesn't zap energy. That gives him energy. And so being out there at a more consistent clip doesn't stress him out.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:02]:
Ashley Faus is the same thing. And it's like for me, I want to get up on a stage, I want to give a talk, I want to be at the conference fully engaged the whole time till like early morning and then get up and do it again. But afterwards I have to manage my social Media. At the same time, I'm like, yeah, I don't want to post while I'm here at this. So I think there's, like, that's part of the difference. And I think that that's, like, how this conversation can even be useful to anyone. This can apply to your company as well. Is like, if you're working in an area and you're thinking about your marketing strategy, it doesn't necessarily make sense for your company to be famous, because famous requires such a big group of people knowing about you that a vast majority of them aren't going to be relevant, right? It's like, fame to me is uncategorized website traffic.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:55]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:55]:
Whereas influence is like, maybe it makes sense for you to get to know, like, these five companies or get in with these two people who influence the buyers in your industry, right? Like, maybe that's your marketing strategy.
Margaret Kelsey [00:23:07]:
And I think that's the most amazing. Did we talk in the bonus episode or another episode about the spindrift thing? I just had recently told this story about how I have a friend.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:20]:
Oh, yes. Yes.
Margaret Kelsey [00:23:21]:
Yeah. And it was like, I'm the influencer. But I would never popped up on any sort of influencer list.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:28]:
Well, but I think that's part of influence for me is, like, how I define it. There's two different kinds of influence to me. There's the invisible kind where, like, a leader, right? A lot of the stuff that I espouse to animals, I see it out in the world in different forms from the people who work for me. I'm like, great. That's what spreading a message is all about. They're owning it in their own way.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:47]:
Then there's the direct influence of, like, I learned this from Devin, and I think that it doesn't matter. Like, the spindrift. Okay. Who cares if I get remembered for, recom, like influencing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:00]:
No, but no one sends me a palette of spindrift?
Devin Bramhall [00:24:05]:
Well, if you did it at scale.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:08]:
I know I should just. I should reach out to them and show them that I. Right now I'm not drinking a spindrift, so we won't send them this episode. But maybe I'll reach out to the marketing team and let them know that I often drink spindrift on this show.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:19]:
Well, here's the other thing is that's where I think the scale in terms of influencer marketing has been complicated because I've influenced buying decisions. I've influenced executive hires to the tune of, like, I'm the initiator. I don't need everybody to know that. But to me, I'm way more effective in that realm. And the influencer of me on the outside, that serves a different, more practical purpose for me. Like that's a revenue generator. Like okay, I'm building an audience because I'm writing a book and I want to go speak. And so I know the criteria I need to be appealing, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:00]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:01]:
And the reason I want to do all these speaking engages because I want to sell the book, because I want to make money, like some amount of money on this endeavor. I want to at least make up the time cost. And so if I think about where I have the most energy and where I really feel proud and excited, it's the invisible stuff. I know other people. Walter was that way. Walter was the most well known guy you'd never heard of, but all the people in the startup industry knew him personally.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:36]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:37]:
The thing that keeps coming up for me as we're talking is I used to get so frustrated when I would hear an idea of mine or like a whatever parroted back without any credit. And I think I've transitioned into this idea of influence being that you are like a mechanism for a good strategy or a good idea or good whatever. And the goal is for that thing to come to life, not for you to get credit for being super smart or super whatever. And that kind of brings it into like the fame would be I need the credit because I need the clout because I need it to be attached to me because I need whatever. But it almost feels like when I started to realize that the one idea or sound bite was not going to be my last and it doesn't matter if I get credit for that one because I have other ones that I want to get out there in the world. Before it was like a scarcity mindset of I need to be attached to that because that's my one good idea and if I'm not known for that, I don't have anything else versus like I am a can be a positive force for all of these different changes or all of these ideas to come out and if it gets picked up and runs away from me and is a different I never get credit for it. The fact that exists in the world now or is like a different way of people doing stuff. That's the what I wanted to have happen anyways this change to actually happens and I'll have another good idea that maybe it'll be attached to me or credited to me or whatever.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:06]:
Also like one do you really Is it really your idea or are you one of the people that, like, secretly heard it somewhere? 2. It only matters, like you're saying, if you were building your business on that concept and somebody copied like, OpenView. PLG, and then PLG started to get away from them, and it was like, no, we need to put our flag in the ground. That we were the people that coined this term and this is the. Our standard definition of it and blah, blah, blah. Yes. That was important to do, right? Yeah. If you want it to be a thing, you also have to let it go.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:40]:
Right. And also, you know, what is the value of it being yours to what you're trying to achieve?
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:46]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:46]:
You know, when HubSpot was coming up, that's why everyone gets obsessed with, like, category creation. It's like, okay, they essentially created a category, but they weren't sitting there fussing about. We had the idea first. They were continuing to build on that idea. More and more assets that they either earned direct revenue for or built their reputation on that led them to this sort of ubiquitous place now. And so because I. I'm like you, I used to be one of those too, where I'd be like, oh, and sometimes I'm not gonna lie.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:21]:
Still bothers you.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:22]:
No, it would be like, I remember Alex once. He was always, like, in his newsletter, like, he always references people in it, and one time he's like, oh, I like, mentioned that thing you said. And I was like, did you give me credit for it? Like, that kind of stuff still bothers me when people kind of like, you know, they don't include you along the way just as like a kindness, a like fairness or whatever. But I used to care a lot about the idea, too. And then I remembered at Help Scout, we didn't care at all. People would quite literally copy and paste a blog article and change it a tiny bit, like our competitors, and publish it, like, the next day. And we were like, ours is better. Like, who cares?
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:09]:
You got it first. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:10]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:11]:
And I think because if competitors are doing that, they're always chasing you and they're not doing the important work of going out there and building the path. So you know that they're always a step behind you because they have to wait for your dance move in order to copy it.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:25]:
Yep.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:26]:
So I was at Appcues, too. We had a couple competitors that would do stuff like that. And I was like, that just means that they're always going to be a step behind us.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:33]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:34]:
And you are going to be influencer, and we're going to Be ahead figuring out if those things that we're doing are actually working or not, and then killing the things that aren't working. And they're going to be copying the stupid stuff that we decided isn't part of our strategy anymore. So, like, cool. Come on, copy us, you know?
Devin Bramhall [00:29:49]:
Yeah, that's like, it's validation. Honestly, more than anything. It's like it really doesn't matter from a business standpoint. A selling, like getting customers. It really doesn't matter if you're first.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:05]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:06]:
Right. What do they call it? The second mover advantage or whatever. I like, so sick of hearing that. Growing up in tech, there's so many things. I'm like, can we. No, I don't want to talk about that. But it is.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:14]:
You brought up category creation earlier.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:16]:
I'm like, oh, I know. But I do feel like that is still, like I was going to go on a thing and I don't want to anymore.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:24]:
You don't like the rant that you were gonna go down?
Devin Bramhall [00:30:27]:
No, it was gonna be so boring. Actually, you know what this reminds me of though? I posted something recently about marketers should be founders, not CTOs. And my friend Ronnie reposted it and he wrote this really beautiful. Like, it was so poignant. I was almost like, you should have written mine because, like, yours is elegant. Mine's like. And he did something that I thought was really clever. He didn't co opt my idea at all.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:57]:
He used it to share one of his. He's like this don't say content podcast. Devin says, you know, X. And he's like, this is something this, like, supports this idea I had a year ago, which was dot, dot, dot. And so it was like, it was a way to give both things. Like, it gives me credit for the thing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:20]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:21]:
And it allows him to stand up and say, well, this is my idea. This other thing is my idea. And he made me look awesome. Like, he made me look really good. I was like, wow, thanks. I was like, thank you. Love you, man. But I liked that approach.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:35]:
The thing I think that does bug me about copying is that I do find it a. It's very self conscious. It's like weak in a toxic way. That type of, like the, the bad type of copying. I'm not talking about like, I used to copy the tone or when I was reading a lot of Huntress Thompson and Tom Robbins, like, I started writing like them. I didn't copy their words, but I was like, definitely leaning into their tone. So there's a big difference. But I think the people who are just copying like that and also pretending they're not, they come across to me as unsettlingly self-conscious.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:16]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:16]:
To the point where I feel like, like I want to get away from.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:19]:
I think they must walk around. I know the imposter syndrome I felt when I wasn't copying people.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:25]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:25]:
And I felt like an imposter. I just imagine what they must walk around with. It must be very fearful to walk around being like, one day somebody's gonna know that I.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:34]:
That's why I couldn't copy, because I was like, what if they talk to me? Like, if I say something I have to be able to like back it up. My problem was I thought backing it up meant being like the world's leading expert on like the tiniest thing. Otherwise like, they're gonna call you out because you don't actually know the dictionary definition of pencil and its entire history of how it was created.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:57]:
Well, I would say overall content marketing strategy was formed is that I could not copy about blog articles about web design or product design or UX because I knew nothing about it. And I was like, it was an imposter syndrome because I just knew that I didn't know anything. And so then I was like, I'm gonna go straight to the people that know stuff about this and see if they'll write articles for us. Because I can't be writing these articles. I can like maybe edit them and make sure they're grammatically okay, but like the concepts I'm not gonna be able to put together. And that was like the foundation of the entire InVision blog that then became like the publication for designers to read is because I didn't trust myself enough to do the basic content marketing. Oh, put together a content calendar. I'm like, I don't know what designers need to know or what they'll write about or what anything.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:50]:
Like it was impossible to put together a six month content calendar because the whole thing was I would go to designers and be like, what are you seeing happening in the industry right now? What's something that's happening that you believe the exact opposite should be happening? What's something you wish you had learned? Then they would give me the topics and that would become the content calendar. But I couldn't do that to like a board level meeting for a year out because I'm like, I don't know, who knows what they're going to come back with?
Devin Bramhall [00:34:16]:
Well, and I think that's the really important point is like, the difference between an idea if you're confident and you're willing to look like an idiot and fall on your face. And I'm speaking for myself because that was my entire career, barreling out in front of everyone and falling down. Ideas come to you constantly. And so you walk around confidently. You're like, okay, well I can just come up with something else. But the thing is that you realize and why you have that confidence, or at least for me was an idea was never a topic. Topics to me are like knowledge. It's a commodity.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:51]:
It's what you do with that. Knowledge is where the idea is, how you frame it, how you analyze it, who you bring in. Like all that stuff. You could have two people with the same exact even title of a blog post.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:04]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:05]:
And it could come out completely differently. And I think that that's where the talent is. That's where. And so I think AI especially has really highlighted that. It's like, oh, the what is the commodity? It's the how that can't be automated or generated by a, you know, a machine. And that to me is the fun part.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:28]:
And I think those subtle shifts of the how are really fun, right? I was like, it was a realization of even editorial director of the content. I have to be the content facilitator. I just have to like, facilitate the idea, facilitate the production. I am just a facilitator in this process. Rather than having to be like the person in charge that gets to decide, I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna manage the flow of this, like creative energy and topics and ideas and content and whatnot. And I do think that's something that's come up in this conversation a few times is like the releasing of control and like how powerful that is for true influence instead of chasing fame.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:16]:
Fame feels also like it's about control, right? Like, I need to amass this followers and I need to make sure that this looks right and this is whatever and influence is. I'm going to give you the right answer and hope that you can then do the right thing with it. But like, also, I don't feel like I'm responsible for the outcome. You know what I mean?
Devin Bramhall [00:36:34]:
Seriously? Yeah. And I think that's a really interesting point and I think the follow on of that is this idea you talked about earlier about thinking things were like, there was a right way and a wrong way. There's a correct and incorrect. And I definitely experienced that. I think when you're coming up in your career and you're learning, like that's when that is really strong. And I think that right versus wrong was kind of a thing in content marketing earlier on. And even culturally, I always say, like, this isn't the 90s anymore. Like, it's not about what is the right, like the you're on trend or you're off trend.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:15]:
It's about making choices and the way you communicate those choices and connect with other people to get them on board. That's the important part, that's the influential part. But also that's why while everyone's talking about this content demise or whatever, how everything commodity from AI and all that, I think the opposite. Because now I can go out there on LinkedIn and be like, I think this. It's not like I'm trying to. I'm not saying,
Margaret Kelsey [00:37:479]:
AI did not give me this insight.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:51]:
No, I just like, I think marketers should be founder co-founders, not CTOs. Like I'm allowed to have that thought and other people are too. And I think that's what, like what is exciting to me about the now of content where it isn't about being the brand or the person who's like, this is the way that you do it, right? It's why I hate playbooks so much.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:14]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:15]:
It's like this is a way that worked really well for me and delivered these, this outcome consistently. Here's like, you want to know what it is.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:27]:
And I think it's moving towards instead of Playbooks, it's moving towards aligned values. And you were even talking about how you realize now that you have less of that like anxiety or buzz or need to be heard because you're like, oh, I'm surrounded by people that kind of believe the same thing or at least are operating from the same set of values. So are probably going to come to the same set of conclusions. And I always think of your values are your decision making framework. Like you run them through your values. And when you have the most ennui in your life, it's usually that you have two competing values that you don't know how to make a decision because both things are important. But you would make a different decision based on which value is more important to you. But both values are important to you and now you're stuck, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:10]:
And so I think of that now of it's not here is the rigid playbook. Follow these steps. It's more, let's figure out how we're making decisions or what we're actually like running that through in terms of the decision making framework and then you can apply it to Lots of different things that maybe historically, you would have needed a playbook for each one of those activities. And now it's if you kind of know the things that are important to make the decisions, that's going to give you a more consistent playbook every single time.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:41]:
Yeah, and I think it's true. I always, like, you can't break the wheel until you learn everything about the wheel. I think some of that comes with your career, you know, doing the same thing for a long time however I want. Like, there's no reason why I was doing it this way. And that's how I talk about it in the book. It's like, for me, it's a framework. There's a series of frameworks, but frameworks are flexible.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:05]:
And to me, I don't think values is really exactly how I would say it. But, like your operating principles, right, you apply those to a framework, adapt the framework in such a way where those two things work together to achieve the outcome you want. And that gives you not only infinite possibilities, so that if your first one doesn't work, you're not like, oh, we failed. But you know why? Each thing is the way it is. So you're like, oh, if we tweak this one thing, it's easier to find those opportunities. Yeah, I'm going to hard stop us, because we both have a hard stop. So there will be an ending somewhere in here, and it's fine. We meandered a lot in the last one, so we're done.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:48]:
That's the end.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:50]:
And that's it. Goodbye forever.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:51]:
That's all we're gonna tell you today. All right, Bye.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:57]:
Bye.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:59]:
Okay, y'all, that's a wrap. Thank you, as always, for listening.
Margaret Kelsey [00:41:02]:
We'll be back next week. And just remember, you're doing great. You're doing great.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:08]:
30% of you are doing great. The rest, you gotta get your together. Come on.
Margaret Kelsey [00:41:14]:
You know, you know which side you're on this week.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:16]:
You know, you know.
Margaret Kelsey [00:41:18]:
See you next week.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:19]:
Bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:41:20]:
Bye.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:24]:
I've written either newsletter, but I'm going to. I just. My life is unmanageable.
Margaret Kelsey [00:41:29]:
It's okay. I feel the same way.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:31]:
Yeah. Okay. I'm like, this book is so hard.