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Great leadership is forged through adversity, not comfort. Leadership expert Jeff Hancher joins host Victoria Meyer to explore the evolving challenges of leading teams in today’s chemical industry—where post-pandemic disruption, hybrid work, and rising mental health concerns are reshaping expectations. Jeff shares how growing up in poverty, serving in the military, and climbing the corporate ladder from truck driver to senior leader shaped his views on feedback, resilience, and mentorship.
Victoria and Jeff discuss the mechanics of effective feedback, how to build robust leadership skills in a volatile world, and why personal investment in growth and mentorship is more critical than ever. Drawing from Jeff’s new book, "Firm Feedback in a Fragile World," and personal stories from the chemical sector and beyond, this conversation delivers actionable insights for leaders tackling retention, talent development, and organizational change.
Get additional insights on:
- The changing landscape of leadership and how to build and apply leadership skills
- Jeff Hancher's career journey and how mentorship shapes professional success at every level.
- Strategies for delivering honest, clear feedback while maintaining trust and team morale.
- How to leverage AI, digitization, and supply chain challenges as opportunities for leadership growth.
- Practical tactics for finding mentors, building confidence, and becoming a leader others respect and follow.
Killer Quote: "It's not the load that weighs you down, it's how you carry it. The greater the adversity, the greater the opportunity for impact." —Jeff Hancher
Additional Links:
Check out Jeff Hancher’s book “Firm Feedback in a Fragile World” here.
00:00 "Path to Higher Education"
00:00 "Path to Higher Education"
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Creators and Guests
What is The Chemical Show: Where Leaders Talk Business?
Looking to lead, grow, and stay ahead in the trillion-dollar global chemical industry? The Chemical Show - the #1 business podcast for the chemical industry - is your go-to resource for leadership insights, business strategies, and real-world lessons from the executives shaping the future of chemicals. Grow your knowledge, your network, and your impact.
Each week, you'll hear from executives from across the industry - from Fortune 50 to midsize to startups. You’ll hear how they're tacking today's challenges and opportunities, their origin story (what got them here!), how you can take and apply these lessons and insights to your own business and career.
We talk:
- Business Transformation
- Innovation
- Digitization of business
- Strategy
- Supply Chain
- and so much more
Founder and host Victoria King Meyer is an expert interviewer - who brings out the best in each guest. She gained her industry experience at leading companies, including Shell, LyondellBasell and Clariant. Today, she is a high-performance coach and advisor to business leaders in chemicals and energy, as well as the host of The Chemical Show podcast, and founder of The Chemical Summit.
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Websites:
https://www.thechemicalshow.com
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https://www.progressioglobal.com
Welcome to The Chemical Show, the
podcast where Chemical means business.
I'm your host, Victoria Meyer,
bringing you stories and insights
from leaders driving innovation and
growth across the chemical industry.
Each week we explore key trends,
real world challenges, and the
strategies that make an impact.
Let's get started.
Victoria: Welcome back to The Chemical
Show where Leaders Talk business.
Today I am speaking with Jeff Cher,
who is, has navigated the path
from the army into being corporate
leader and now is a leadership
expert running his own business.
Jeff has recently published a book,
firm Feedback in a Fragile World, which
we will link to in our show notes.
And we're gonna be having a great
conversation about leadership feedback
and frankly, how we all can be successful
in our careers and leading teams.
So Jeff, welcome to the Chemical Show.
Jeff: Man, it is good to
be with you, Victoria.
I love what you're doing to support your
industry and certainly to support leaders.
Everything rises and falls at
the hand of a leader, and I'm
looking forward to the discussion.
Victoria: Yeah, absolutely.
I'm so glad that you're here
and of course, you yourself host
a really successful podcasts.
Um, And so we might get a chance
to talk about that a little bit and
certainly wanna give, encourage people
to listen to your podcast as well.
Jeff: Sure.
Victoria: Absolutely.
So Jeff, what's your origin story?
What got you onto the
path that you are today?
Jeff: I'll give you the Cliffs notes
'cause that could be a long episode.
But, I grew up in southwestern
Pennsylvania, about 20
miles south of Pittsburgh.
Grew up in rural America.
Born into poverty.
Had, two parents that never
worked a day in my life.
A mom that battled a disease called
lupus, a dad that battled chronic
osteoarthritis that led to, tons of
surgeries on his feet and amputation.
It was really, really
rough, uh, growing up.
You know, when I became a teenager and
had some freedom, the things got worse.
There wasn't a lot of direction.
My parents were good people, uh, but they
were literally fighting for survival.
And, being a teenager with not a lot of
direction led to a lot of bad decisions.
I.
brushes with the law, the wrong
friend groups, you name it.
Uh, I felt like me and my brother kind of
felt like the walls were caving in on us.
And when I graduated from high
school, I never really saw
college as an opportunity.
One because of affordability, but
two, I just wasn't a great student.
But I knew I wanted more and I
didn't really know what to do.
So I had a couple options.
I could go into the coal mine,
I could go into the steel mill,
or I could join the military.
And I joined the military just
because I wanted to experience
a something different.
So I find myself in Fort Jackson,
South Carolina, in basic training,
running Tank Hill, and doing all the
things that a new soldier does and.
After I transitioned from the military,
I was gonna use that GI bill to go
to college, which was unheard of.
Like nobody had ever done that in
my family, but I had this GI bill,
so I was gonna give it a shot.
And I was, a few weeks from starting
and my dad called and made me aware they
were sending my mom home in hospice.
And we had gotten that call before,
where she would get really, really sick.
This time it was different 'cause
this time would be the time that my
dad was also having a leg amputation.
And Wow, my mom was being
sent home in hospice.
Victoria: Gosh, that is a lot
Jeff: it's a lot.
Victoria: and a young
adult to grapple with.
Jeff: Yeah.
And I mean, so you have
all of this going on.
My brother's in a career, so I did
what anybody would do and I put college
on the back burner and I helped get
all the nurses set up and get things
a little bit stabilized, helping my
dad through, rehabbing, you know,
how to figure out how to use an
artificial leg and all this stuff.
And, um, I didn't wanna be a
burden on my, on my parents.
So I went and looked for a seasonal job.
I didn't have a lot of skill, so
I needed some kind of grunt work.
And I ended up applying to be a truck
driver at Cintas Uniform Company.
And what I thought was gonna be a
seasonal job ended up being nearly a 25
year career in that Fortune 500 company.
And I went from.
Entry level fill in truck driver
to a senior leader in that company.
And it's, it's not because I'm
anything amazing, I worked hard.
But I had that level of success because I
had leaders that, had a lot of belief in
me and supported me along that journey.
And I thought I was gonna
retire from that company.
And in early 2019, I started
a leadership podcast.
To kind of give back to
what's been given to me.
And that led to a lot of great feedback
and a side hustle of doing leadership
trainings and, executive coaching.
And in December of 2019, I felt the,
the conviction very strong to leave the
company I loved and all the Unvested stock
and the risk of starting your own company.
And I branched out and started,
uh, Jeff Hancher Enterprises
and it's been an amazing ride.
So.
Victoria: That
Jeff: That's kind of the cliff notes.
Victoria: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's
great and I think, um.
your point, there are people in our
lives along the way that are powerful
stewards of our journey, right?
Jeff: Hmm.
Victoria: us the right support, the
right mentorship, the right belief,
because who would've thought, right?
That you'd go from a seasonal worker
Jeff: Yeah.
Victoria: uh, a senior leader,
a and then, and then beyond.
So that's really cool.
Jeff: Yeah.
Victoria: you know, when we
think about this, and of course
you've been working a long time.
You started out in the military.
different today?
Right?
So when you look at leadership, and I
know you're a student, of leadership,
what's different about leadership today
versus one, what it was 25 years ago,
Jeff: I say it's never
been harder to lead.
make no mistake, we are very
still, very much so post pandemic.
You know, are we coming
back to the office?
Are we still gonna stay hybrid?
Is it gonna be a blend?
Well, if you make me come back
to the office, I'm quitting.
I don't wanna come back to the office.
You know, we had to, we, we had to
battle through the great resignation.
Probably every leader listening to
this episode has an open requisition.
They're not fully staffed.
It's harder to attract top
talent than ever before.
It's harder to retain top
talent than ever before.
And leaders are tasked, uh, like
never before with these types
of challenges, mental health.
It, the numbers of mental health are
on the rise like Neville never before.
And guess what?
Mental health is coming into your
workplace and leaders that are quote
unquote unqualified to manage that are
needing to lead teams that have that.
And this is left a fear, I think,
in leaders of don't rock the boat,
just get through another day.
Don't call out the problem.
Don't challenge people just.
Don't cause don't no ripples like,
and what we know is, is that,
uh, that's not good leadership.
You know, we're all a product of feedback.
We're all a product of
a tough conversation.
But I think now more than ever, leaders
are fearful of it, because things
are already so fragile, they just
don't wanna rock the boat anymore.
There's plenty of challenges.
Leaders are navigating.
Victoria: Yeah.
That's so interesting because, you
know, I, I certainly hear, and you
hear it from both sides, right?
With where people struggle with
having a not great leader and a not
great boss, and they can't believe,
certain things that are happening or
that certain people get away with.
And then, you know, on the same side,
uh, leaders, leaders are struggling.
So, you kind of touched on
some of these things, but.
We've got this whole aspect
of all these changes.
You've touched on some of them.
I think about ai, digitization,
the whole return to work.
Are you in the office?
Are you not in the
Jeff: Hmm.
Victoria: What the holy
heck are you doing?
Jeff: Hmm.
Victoria: certainly in the chemical
industry, we're in a period of right?
So tariff supply chain,
Jeff: Hmm.
Victoria: depending on where you sit,
there's some major shutdowns taking place.
As.
The world shifts a bit.
How is that influencing
corporations and leaders when
they think about going to work and
Jeff: Hmm.
Victoria: lead effectively?
What does that even look like today?
Jeff: Yeah, it's challenging,
because, uh, guess what, last
I checked, leaders are human.
They have feelings, they have emotions.
You know, leader leadership can be a heavy
load, but what I've learned about the
greatest leaders is it's not the load that
weighs you down, it's how you carry it.
You know, if you wear a backpack low to
your back and there's 50 pounds in it,
it's gonna feel like a hundred, that
same 50 pounds though if it's secured
tightly to your back and high on your
shoulders, it might only feel like 20.
It's not the load that weighs
you down, it's how you carry it.
Here's, here's the thing about adversity.
The greater the adversity, the
greater the opportunity for impact.
And I, I'll tell a story
to drive this point.
You know, if you think about, , a trauma
surgeon, you know, this is somebody that's
spent 10 to 13 years of their life to
get started to be good at what they do.
This is a person that
covers the most traumatic.
Events that come through
an emergency room.
This is gunshots stabs,
head on collisions.
They've been trained to take care of
the most adverse acute health situations
that come through the hospital.
And can you imagine being a, a trauma
surgeon and day after day, day after
day, day after day, not one case
comes through the er and you find
yourself one day sitting there.
As the trauma surgeon and you look over to
the nurse and you say, this really stinks.
And she says, or he says, what stinks?
There's no trauma cases coming in.
And the nurse says to you, the
trauma surgeon, are you saying
that you want people to get hurt?
And you, the doctor sit there and you
think about that and you say, that
is kind of a, a crazy thing to say.
Victoria: Yeah.
Jeff: I really don't want people to get
hurt, but it's what I've been built to do.
So much so that if trauma's
not happening in this city, I'm
gonna go find a city where it is.
Why?
Because I've dedicated my life to this.
It's what I'm good at,
it's what I'm built to do.
I can make a difference in the
most serious of situations.
If a leader takes this posture, I.
When the chemical industry is under
attack, it's under political strain.
You, all of these things are happening.
There's gonna be a leader that represents
a brand that's gonna look at all this
adversity and say, this is my moment.
This is the opportunity
that I've been waiting for.
And, and I will tell you, when you
take on this posture, what we know
is, is that everybody listening to
this show is gonna face adversity.
You're gonna face death of
somebody that you love dearly.
There's people right now that
have just been told that their
15-year-old is addicted to drugs.
There's somebody listening to this show
that have just been told that the, their
husband or wife has stage four cancer.
This is real Victoria.
This is the real work
force that we're leading.
But here's what I know.
None of us are gonna escape tragedy.
None of us are gonna escape adversity.
There's gonna be competitive pressure,
political distress, social injustice.
It's all gonna happen and
it's gonna keep happening.
The leader that steps up
and says, you know what?
This is my opportunity to shine.
I have developed myself in a way
that this adversity is actually, it's
gonna give me a competitive advantage.
Those are the leaders with that mindset
that are gonna win and dominate.
Victoria: so, so it prompts
a couple questions here from
me, Jeff, which is number one.
How do you develop those skills?
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Victoria: And number two, do
you recognize the opportunity
and when to apply those skills?
Because I think many of
Jeff: Hmm.
Victoria: excellent practitioners,
but sometimes we just apply that
at the wrong time in the wrong
way and it screws things up, so,
Jeff: Yeah.
Victoria: how do you build the skills
and how do you apply them correctly?
Jeff: Man, that's,
that's a great question.
You know, I always say that everybody on
Planet Earth is in one of four camps, and
Camp one is, I hope it doesn't come up.
Camp two is, if it comes up, I'll wing it.
Camp three is, if it comes up,
I'm ready to talk about it.
But then there's Camp four people.
And Camp four people have this
mindset of, if it doesn't come up.
I'm bringing it up, not because
I'm arrogant, because I see it
as a duty and an obligation.
Think of somebody, um, you know, you're
at Walmart and somebody yells, help, help.
They're not breathing.
And you know, CPR, you've been
trained in CPR and you hear this
cry for help in this moment.
You're in camp four.
'cause you know, CPR, you know
how to use a defibrillator, so
you run to the lifeless body.
You're not thinking this is arrogant.
You're not.
You're not waiting for
somebody else to do it.
This is a Camp Four moment, so you run,
you forget everything else, and you run to
death and breathe life into it adversely.
If you don't know CPR, you hope it,
you are walking into Mar Walmart,
hoping it doesn't ever come up.
So then the question comes, which is your
question, how do you get into Camp four?
Well, it's really simple, but not easy.
Camp four requires you to consume
and to get around people that
have been where you want to go.
You know, this is this, I need
to be hungry for knowledge.
I need to be in the workshop.
I need to be, and by the way,
we're talking to people listening
that believe in this, that's why
they're listening to the show.
But I need to get content.
I need to watch YouTube.
I need to pay out of my own pocket if
need be to go to the leadership workshop.
To hire the executive coach.
Why?
Because I know I can't.
Do I need the knowledge?
you're not gonna get
something by doing nothing.
So we have to invest in our growth,
but it can't stop there because we're
not here to win leadership trivia.
You know, you can be book smart
and not be effective as a leader.
That would be like trying to be great at
golf and reading Tiger Woods's golf book.
That doesn't, that's never
gonna make you a great golfer.
It'll make you more knowledgeable
about the game, and you might win
trivia at night, but you're never
gonna be an effective golfer.
Now, if I could go play 18 rounds with
Tiger every Sunday, the odds of me being
a pretty good golfer are gonna go up.
So you have to consume, but so many
people spend their life consuming and
never executing when you get mentorship,
which is basically what people are
doing by listening to this show.
Is they're saying, I wanna get around
people that have been where I want to go.
So those are the staples that
I would tell you that's gonna
build a foundation of confidence.
When you have confidence in something,
that's where the execution comes to,
which is the second part of your question.
One of my favorite quotes
is this, from Marcus Garvey.
He said this once, he said.
If you lack confidence in self,
you're twice defeated in the
race of life, but with confidence
you have won before you start.
This confidence thing is, is the ultimate
wild card for anybody and especially
a leader because when you have all
of the knowledge and you understand
through mentoring or leadership how to
execute it, now you're in camp four and
you can run into the biggest problem.
Victoria: Yeah, that's really great.
And I do think this whole aspect,
you know, to me, I, it points
to maybe a growth mindset and
being around, , the right people.
And you and I both know, having gone
from corporate to entrepreneurship,
first of all, inside of a
corporation, you may or may not
have those right people around you.
I, I have had the
opportunity in my career,
Jeff: Hmm.
Victoria: to have some great
leaders and mentors who.
Sewed into me who were great
examples, who, when I had a
question about all kinds of stuff.
In fact, the thing that comes to
mind is, uh, I met somebody a couple
weeks ago in an event I was speaking
at, and we were talking about his
wife was going back into the office
five days a week, blah, blah, blah.
They have a young family and just this
whole aspect of, managing a family
while you're also corporate and and
I said, you know, I still remember
is I had some great women around
me when my kids were very young.
I mean today as well, but when my kids
were very young and I was at Shell working
in corporate, who basically taught me how
to like have a nanny and what do I do with
the nanny and how do I help balance this
for my family because that was something.
needed to learn, and I
needed people to show me.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Victoria: some great leaders, uh,
that help me with the commercial
aspects of my business and commercial
acuity, the great leaders that help
me be a leader, a leader of people.
Um,
Jeff: Hmm,
Victoria: I think this aspect of,
of having that around you, and then
if you don't have it, creating it,
Jeff: Wow.
Victoria: it inside your company,
outside of your company, and, you
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Victoria: As an entrepreneur running
a small business, you have to go out
to create that community and create
that mentorship, and make that happen.
Jeff: Man, that's so true.
And think about like what you said,
some of the things that you just said.
They transcend business results.
Like somebody that sat you down and said,
this is how you can still be a good mom
Victoria: Yeah.
Jeff: and be successful in business.
You know, I had a leader that took me
in the men's room once and taught me
how to tie a Windsor knot because I,
I just became a white collar worker
from a blue collar world, and I
didn't know what collar stays were,
and I didn't know how to tie a tie.
I didn't know anything, and
it wasn't his responsibility.
Victoria: yeah.
Jeff: me those things.
He went beyond the business results to
make deposits into me, and I'll bet,
I'll bet this if, if I were to ask you
or anybody listening to think about
your Mount Rushmore of leaders, these
are the people, for people that you
would say, I would not be who I am if
these people never came in my life.
I'll bet you if I were to ask
you the question, were those
four people tough on you?
They probably all were.
But if I were to follow that up
and say, did you know they cared?
Yeah.
Because they also taught
me how to be a great mom,
Victoria: Yeah.
Jeff: and they also taught
me how to tie a tie.
And they also took me, this leader did
to Joseph, a bank and taught me how to
dress like, now here's what happens to
your example, and this is why mentoring
and getting around great leaders matters.
Because when you achieve that,
what you just talked about
and what I just described.
You're no longer a boss
that people report to.
You're a leader that people
don't wanna let down.
Now you wanna earn the right to have
a tough conversation in the face
of quiet, quitting, high turnover,
, trying to attract top talent,
you wanna be a leader that
leads with confidence and
doesn't fear tough feedback.
Earn the right, because
then you become a leader.
People don't wanna let down, and we know.
That the best recruiting and
retention tool there is on planet
Earth is the leader that's listening.
Victoria: Yeah,
Jeff: truth.
Victoria: Absolutely.
And so this is perhaps a bit of
what your new book is about, right?
So you've just published firm
Feedback in a Fragile World.
When we look across, heck,
every industry, but let's talk
about the chemical industry.
There's a lot of what we do that
is kind of just required, right?
We need to have a safe
operating environment.
Um, Compliance from a regulatory product
perspective, dealing with operational
complexity, safe and secure supply
chains, so many different things.
, Things can go right, things can
go wrong when things go wrong.
Tragedy can happen and, and of
course we all seek to avoid that.
How do you deliver that tough feedback?
What is, is there a
formula for tough feedback?
Without breaking trust, or employee
morale and continuing to build on that?
Jeff: Yeah, there is a formula.
You know, uh, the framework we talk about,
in the book is that of expectations,
feedback, and accountability.
You know, making sure expectations
are clear, reasonable.
People understand why the
expectation is good for them.
They've been adequately trained
to meet or exceed the expectation.
But then this feedback piece, I'm a big
fan of, frequent and scheduled one-on-one
debriefs for everybody in your company.
And I always get pushback and I'll hear
people say, we don't have time for that.
Well, then you need more leaders because
at, well, last I checked, you're only as
good as the people that you're developing.
You could have the best product in
the world, and if your leadership is
weak, you're going to lose adversely.
If you have superior leadership
with moderate or, or even inadequate
product in service, you're gonna
be a fierce competitor because what
we're talking about here is culture.
And I talk about this in the
book, but it, it leads to then,
well, why is it that leaders fear.
Or have this anxiety about
having a tough conversation.
You know, we've all had that tightness
of the chest, that sweaty palm.
Whenever you have to address that
employee that, degraded you or
interrupted you in front of everybody
in the team meeting this morning, and
by the way, there are peak performer and
if they quit, we're gonna be screwed.
That person, and we gotta
have this tough conversation.
I talk about the acronym FEAR in the book.
And of why there's this
feedback avoidance.
The F is fallout.
What if I have this hard conversation
and people don't like me anymore, or
it ruins my, my brand or my reputation?
Then you have the E, which is emotion,
which if I have this conversation
and they get angry or they feel
embarrassed, or if they cry.
Here's what I'll tell you.
If you haven't made anybody
cry in leadership yet, you're
probably not doing it right.
Not that we want people to cry, but
we gotta have hard conversations.
The A is amateur, which is probably
a big one, and this doesn't
mean, you're new to leadership.
Amateur means you've never
really been taught a framework
of how to deliver feedback.
You could be in leadership for 15
years, and believe me, these are
the people coming to my workshops.
Who at the end of a workshop
say, nobody's ever told me this.
Victoria: Hmm.
Jeff: I know that's common response.
So you might feel like an amateur.
And an amateur means, you know
what, I'm not gonna do anything
'cause I'm afraid to get it wrong.
But then you have the R, which
is retaliation, which is very
prominent in the corporate world.
What if I have this conversation?
It doesn't go like I want it to, and they
report me to hr, or they tell my boss.
You know what?
I don't wanna rock the boat.
I'm not gonna do anything.
Well, the good news is this, if you
have confidence, and we've already
proven that the leaders that have made
the biggest impact on you were tough
on you, that means you gotta get tough.
What?
What I'm not saying is be aggressive
because there's a leader listening
that says, see, I'm doing it right.
I'm not talking about getting a
stick out and whacking people.
I'm talking about finding the
balance of earning the right
to have a tough conversation.
That's the framework in the book.
Expectations feedback, meaning feedback's
not the same for any two people.
You know, you Victoria might need
supportive feedback in the morning,
but by the time afternoon hits, you
might need collaborative feedback.
That new employee, they don't
need collaborative feedback.
They need directive feedback 'cause
they don't know what they're doing.
That peak performer that has
stopped performing for you,
they need supportive feedback.
So we have to at least understand that
there's multiple types of feedback and the
best scenarios to deliver the feedback,
which is what we talk about in the book.
Victoria: Yeah, I like that.
You know, and it's, it's actually
a great segue to one of my other
questions, which is gonna be around,
you know, when people are under stress.
Leaders, employees, everyone, we
sometimes would, but if you're a
leader under stress, a lot of times you
revert to like your worst behaviors.
Right?
So you've been really good,
great feedback, consistent.
And then whatever your old comfortable
habits, ways of communicating, ways
of giving feedback, whether it's being
directive or explosive or what have you.
Often come through in
those stress moments.
do you maybe recover from that, right?
If you recognize that, but also how does
that change, the way feedback is received?
How do you just find your path through it?
Because the reality is
we've all seen this, right?
We've, we've lived it, we've
experienced it, we've been it at times.
Jeff: Oh yeah.
Victoria: how do you navigate that?
Jeff: Yeah.
Well.
What we know about the greatest leaders
that have ever walked the planet
is they all have one common thread.
Probably many, but one of
them is they're composed.
Great leaders are composed, you
know, rarely, rarely, not never,
but rarely is anything personal.
You know, a lot of times a
leader can get bent outta shape
because they become triggered.
Because somebody said something they
shouldn't have said, somebody did
something they shouldn't have done.
And we become emotionally triggered.
Remember, remember this?
Um, and this is gonna set
somebody free, I hope today.
They're not trying to hurt you.
They're trying to help them.
They're not trying to hurt you.
They're trying to help them.
This isn't personal.
If they show up on your porch with
clinch fist, now it's personal.
It's rare that that's going to happen.
Think, think about it this way.
You, you're driving down the road
one day and you see a stray dog.
You can see its ribs.
You can tell like this dog is
probably days away from dying.
It's been neglected.
And so you pull the car over and you
say, Hey, Skippy, jump in the car.
I'm gonna save you.
The dog's not jumping in the car.
It's not doing that, so, so you walk
over to the dog and you talk nice and
you say, Hey, I'm here to help you
look like you're having a bad time.
And you go to pet the dog
and what's that dog do?
It bites you.
and you say to yourself, how dare you?
I'm just here to help.
Well, why is the dog biting?
Because it's been beaten, it's
been neglected, it's been abused.
It hasn't eaten in days.
And here's the thing, you,
you don't give up on the dog.
You go and you get treats and you can
maybe get a blanket and you sit down
in a less intimidating posture and
you start feeding the dog some treats.
Why?
Because it matters to you
so much to save the dog.
And you know, you have to build trust.
So over time, the dog starts to
trust you and it gets in the car,
and now you're able to help it.
It.
Now look all due respect to
animals, but this is a dog.
I find that too often leaders
give up on people too fast.
They're not trying to hurt you,
they're trying to help them.
That dog wasn't trying to hurt you.
It was trying to protect itself.
Composure is having a perspective that's
completely different than average leaders
that I'm not moved by my situation.
And I always know I can either change
my perspective or change my environment.
This adversity, it sucks compared to what?
That's freedom.
This sucks.
Compared to what?
That employee just called me a jerk.
That sucks.
Compared to what?
Fighting for your life in an emergency
room, being in a foxhole, taking bullets.
This sucks.
Compared to what?
Like we have to fight for
perspective and we have to realize.
We are leaders that have been put in
this position to navigate challenges.
You know, a fireman never says,
oh, here goes the alarm again.
Looks like we gotta go
into a burning building.
No, in some kind of sick way,
they get excited about it.
'cause it's what they're ex,
it's what they get to do.
When we feel this emotion that
we're losing composure, that's
when we gotta take a breath and we
gotta check ourselves and we gotta
build this level of confidence.
And our, and change our
perspective so that we can lead
through the toughest of times.
You know, we're not literally
going into battle, that's a
whole different level of stress.
We're navigating business challenges.
So that would be my advice to somebody
that is fighting to not be so emotional.
Victoria: Yeah.
That's really great.
So, you know, you've talked a lot about
firm feedback and we've been talking
about feedback and, and mentorship here.
Can you share a story maybe
from your own experience or from
working with a client where.
Giving or receiving feedback created
a real breakthrough situation because
I sometimes think, we think of
feedback as a correction and you know,
Jeff: Mm.
Victoria: kind of keeping people
on the, inside, the straight
and narrow, so to speak.
But when does feedback
create breakthroughs?
Do you have any
Jeff: Hmm.
Victoria: around that?
Jeff: Chapter one.
Yeah, so I'm a truck driver.
I'm a blue collar guy.
Dirty job, picking up
nasty, dirty clothes.
I would see these really fancy
looking people around the office.
You know, they wore nice suits and.
Nice ties and had shiny shoes and
they drove these real fancy cars.
You probably heard of 'em, Honda Accords.
I mean, these were fancy people.
And I inquired about who these people
were and I heard that they were
salespeople and I wanted to be that.
And I finally get my break and I
have a sales manager, Sean, and
you know, he took a chance on me.
I was a good driver.
I, I won awards and trophies and I
was a hard worker that was known.
But he, he was taking a chance.
I had no sales experience at all,
and uh, this guy would stay after
work with me and role play with me.
He would teach me interest, creating
statements and how to overcome objections.
He would jump in the car with me and go
on sales calls and coach me after a call.
He would take sales calls and let
me observe the master doing it.
He's the guy I told you about that
taught me how to tie winds or not.
They told me what a collar stay
was, so my collars weren't flapping.
He's the guy that took me to
Joseph, a bank on a lunch break
once, and taught me that your belt
and shoes were supposed to match.
And the difference between a sport coat
and a suit, you know, this is a guy
that went way beyond a balance sheet
and a key performance indicator, and
I gained so much respect for him, and
I was fighting hard in this position,
Victoria, because I came from nothing.
I have two sick parents that
are still living in the high
rise one bedroom apartment.
My mom, um, many times would cut
pills in half because spread 'em out.
'cause the copays were so expensive.
Like, I wasn't trying to buy a Rolex.
I was trying to give my
family a better life.
Victoria: Yeah.
Jeff: And I was on my way to my first
sales call one morning and I got a
call from my dad and he said, um, I
just arrived at the hospital with mom.
And, um, Jeff, I th I think
it's different this time.
And so I did what I did hundreds
of times and I drove to the
hospital and dad was right.
You know, this day it was different.
This was the day that I would
hold my mom for the last
time, and, uh, she would pass.
And Victoria it broke me
in, in every way imaginable.
It broke me.
I went into a very dark place emotionally.
I didn't care about the
Honda Accord anymore.
I didn't care about the
fancy suits anymore.
The very thing that I was
working so hard for it was gone.
I didn't care about work anymore.
Victoria: Yeah.
Jeff: I would show up, I
would be a shell of a person.
I was emotional.
I would, uh, I would sit in
the stall sometimes and cry
at work like I was a mess.
And one day Sean pulled
me into his office.
This was after about two weeks
after we had buried my mom, and
he said, um, enough's enough.
Enough's enough.
I'm not gonna let you continue to do this.
My heart breaks for you and your
family, but I've spent the last
how many months pouring into you.
I see your potential.
You have an 18 month, year old son.
I have an 18 month old son.
You want to have a more family.
Your dad is still here and he needs
you, and you're about to throw all
of this away, and I'm not gonna sit
by and watch it, but you know what?
I'm gonna give you 24 hours
and we're gonna meet again, and
you're gonna make a decision.
You're either gonna become the
person that I know you're capable
of being or you can't be on my team.
This was a crossroads.
I thought about quitting.
Who's this guy to tell me?
I'm not gonna be told what to do.
I'm over it.
I'm done.
And I came back the next day
and I looked Sean in the face.
it was a turning point.
Victoria: Wow.
That's, uh, that's amazing.
So thank you for sharing that because
that, I know is a, is a very personal
story and very vulnerable story.
Jeff: yeah.
Victoria: but to, to your credit.
to Sean's credit, to have somebody that
was that committed personally to you
Jeff: Yeah.
Victoria: critical.
and he probably stretched the boundaries
of what was, you know, typical acceptable
boss activity at your company, right?
At, at Cintas, right.
So big company, it's not like
it's, uh, and to be able to do
that, to feed that into you, and,
and then obviously, here you are.
Jeff: Yeah, think about that.
Victoria: so to speak,
Jeff: Yeah.
Think about what's happened since then.
Victoria: at that point in time.
Jeff: Yeah.
Victoria: have that level of
trust between the two of you to
Jeff: Hmm.
Victoria: like that is is huge.
Enormous.
Jeff: I mean, think about it.
If you don't earn the right
and you have that conversation.
I mean, you might get
punched for goodness sake.
That's extreme, but it's like
he earned the right to have that
tough conversation and think
about what's happened since then.
I had, from that moment of that
tough conversation, I went on
to win multiple Presidents clubs
awards in sales, 11 more promotions.
I launched a business, a podcast, a book.
Victoria: Yeah.
Jeff: I, I don't know.
But I wonder often had he not done
what he did and was the leader that
he was and leaned into the tough
conversation, would I be who I am today?
And I honor him in the book and
I honor that story in the book
because I want leaders that read
that chapter to say, you know what?
This is bigger than.
Climbing the Fortune 500 ranks,
there are people that are counting
on leaders to show up and lead well.
That's what has to happen.
And when you do that, guess what?
It's great for business.
Victoria: Yeah.
I, I, I think it's great.
And I think that the takeaway
for me on this, as well, Jeff,
is have a conversation, right?
We often have regrets.
We let people maybe stew in their
miseries a little bit of a strong
phrase, but it's, you're, we're afraid.
We're afraid sometimes to have
those conversations, to say, Hey,
okay, I know this really sucks.
I was gonna use that word.
but I need you to buck up.
I
Jeff: Yeah,
Victoria: team needs you,
you, yourself, need you.
And, and having those tough
conversations, is really critical.
And it's, and it's hard for both people.
'cause I'm sure for Sean, it was not
an easy conversation for him to have.
Jeff: that's right.
Victoria: just as it was not an
easy conversation for you to hear.
Jeff: Yeah, it's true and, and I often
get asked, especially because of the.
You know, recognition that the book's
getting, you know, I'll have leaders
been messaging me on LinkedIn and so
forth saying, I want to be that leader.
How will I know how, how will I know
when I'm doing it the right way?
Victoria: Yeah.
Jeff: I, there's this one
little report card that I give.
do you think it is more impactful to tell
somebody, good job, or, I'm proud of you.
What would you say is more impactful?
Victoria: I'm assuming
I'm a, I'm proud of you,
Jeff: Yes,
Victoria: right?
It's
Jeff: but here's the thing.
It's, it's, it's no doubt about it.
But here's the thing.
Not everybody earns the
right to use that word.
I'm proud of you.
If you can look somebody in the
face and say, I'm so proud of you,
then you have hit a different
level of leadership.
Now check this out.
They're doing something they shouldn't do.
What hits different?
What were you thinking or what
you did really disappoints me
Victoria: With a
disappointment every time,
Jeff: every time.
Victoria: Catholic guilt, by the way,
Jeff: Yeah, but, but you
can't, you can't say that.
It feels so weird to say proud or
disappointed unless you've earned it.
Unless you've earned it,
Victoria: Yeah.
Jeff: you won't say it because you'll,
you know, if you haven't earned it
and you say it, the other person
is gonna give you body language
that says, I don't really care.
I don't really care.
Who are you to tell me you're proud of me?
That's, that's designated
for my grandmother, not you.
When we can earn the right to say these
two words, we are on the right track.
Victoria: Yeah.
and I would also say we should be
willing to use those two words,
Jeff: Yes.
Victoria: uh, I, I think sometimes we hold
ourselves back from giving that kind of
feedback, positive and negative, right?
Um, and yet it's powerful.
Jeff: Yes.
Victoria: the right people, it can't
Jeff: Yes.
Right.
Victoria: right?
So it's not that, uh, to your
point, you have to have the right
relationship in order to do that,
but we should be using those words.
Jeff: Absolutely.
Yes.
Victoria: Yeah.
Jeff: They're impactful.
Victoria: So, Jeff, this has
been really great and, and
you've given us so many nuggets.
But I always like to, to ask my guests,
as we close, you know, you've, you've
obviously had a really successful
corporate and entrepreneurial
career and quite a journey.
What advice would you give to someone
in your career, in their career,
maybe a young Jeff Cher, that wants
to achieve your level of success?
Jeff: I talk about my mentors throughout
the book from feedback in a fragile
world, and I would tell you mentoring
has literally changed my life, and I
don't mean just in the business sense.
You know, I've been around some
amazing husbands that taught me how
to be a good husband, not perfect.
I've been around some amazing fathers that
have taught me how to be a better father.
Certainly I've been around some
amazing mentors that are sales
experts that taught me how to do that.
I would tell you early in your
career, and it should never stop,
quite frankly, is seek mentoring.
We do polls and, and so
forth at our company.
It, it's sad to me how many people
have never had a mentor, and a
lot of the things that I hear is,
well, Jeff, I wouldn't even know
how to, how do I even get a mentor?
There's a lot of strategy that goes
into that, but I'm gonna give you,
if you are listening, and this is
you, I'm gonna give you one question
that can expand your network and at
least give you greater odds of finding
mentors that can change your life.
When you're done talking to your boss,
when you're done talking to somebody
at church, when you're done talking to
somebody at the family reunion, let them
know what you're trying to accomplish.
I'd love to be a better dad.
I'd love to be a better husband.
I'd love to be a better
salesperson someday.
I'd like to be a leader.
Leader.
Before you close that conversation, you
asked this question, who do you know
based on our conversation that I don't
know that you think I should meet?
This will start opening up.
You know what?
Based off what you said, Jeff,
you should meet my buddy Joe.
Now you go and you meet with Joe
because now you got an introduction
to Joe and you go to that meeting.
Very intentional.
You have questions ready.
When Joe gives you advice, you execute.
You report back to Joe what you did.
This starts to build.
The greatest gift that you can give
a mentor is execution and results.
You do that they will
come running for you.
obviously you have to consume.
so mentoring number one, consume
number two, and I don't mean, um,
well, Jeff, I do consume my company.
They, we have training
every Wednesday morning.
Listen, if you do what everybody
else does, you're gonna get
what everybody else has.
You know, there's a, there's
a, a scripture that I love.
It says, uh, where your treasure is.
your heart is, I believe this is true.
I could tell you.
How serious you are about success.
If you gave me your last 12 months
bank statements, how much is
on your bank statement for your
personal growth and development?
When's the last time you jumped
on a plane to go hear a speaker?
That could literally change your life.
When's the last time that you paid to
go to a chamber event paid a hundred
dollars out of your own pocket?
Or are you waiting for your
company to help you be successful?
I hope that they do, but
it's never gonna be enough.
You have to go chase success.
That would be my advice to
somebody that's starting out.
Victoria: Love it, love it, love it.
Such a rich conversation.
Jeff, thank you so much.
Thanks for
Jeff: Thank you.
Victoria: really, really
appreciated this conversation.
Jeff: Grateful for you.
Grateful for your listeners.
Victoria: Thank you.
And thank you everyone for joining
us today on The Chemical Show.
Keep listening, keep following,
keep sharing, and we will
talk with you again soon.