Ep. 111: The Camouflage Conundrum

Join Travis Bader and Paul Ballard as they transport you to a captivating spring turkey hunt around the campfire. In this episode, they expertly answer your burning questions about camouflage for hunting.   Unveil the well-guarded secrets of successful hunting as Travis and Paul delve into topics such as blending seamlessly with nature, controlling scent, and mastering silent movements. Whether you're an experienced hunter or an aspiring enthusiast, this immersive adventure into the wild promises to be both educational and entertaining.   Prepare to deepen your understanding of camouflage techniques while enjoying a compelling blend of knowledge and entertainment.   

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

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ca.

So how should we start this one?

Paul Ballard: I don't know.

Travis Bader: I'm scared.

Maybe we just start just like that.

Paul Ballard: Yes, I, I'm scared
because it's dark and, and now you're

forcing me to do podcasts in the dark.

Typically we've worked in the studio,
but I think, uh, you know, Travis,

I'm, I'm happy to be here in what
truly is the great outdoors of the

southern part of the province of
British Columbia on a turkey hunt.

And we're about to talk.

Travis Bader: Camouflage.

The Camo Jam, the, what
was the title for this one?

The

Paul Ballard: Camouflage Conundrum.

The Camouflage Conundrum.

The Camouflage Commitment.

So.

All about camo, but

Travis Bader: maybe not.

We've been getting people
asking, saying we'd like to have

some more on scene podcasts.

Now I've done a couple in the past.

Uh, first one was on a jet boat
just outside of a, a, uh, a

ghost town on the Skeena River.

That was a pretty cool one.

Uh, You and I did one at the,
uh, Fuddleduck Lodge there.

Yes.

And now we're out on a turkey hunt.

This is my first turkey hunt.

And so I'm learning a lot about

Paul Ballard: this.

Well, I'm not exactly the best teacher
because I've hunted turkey before, but

I'm by no means, you know, the penultimate
turkey hunter, but we're doing our thing.

Travis Bader: So we were talking a
little bit about camouflage and this

is something that's come up in the
past and you know, Guy Kramer, we

had him on the podcast before he.

Developed camouflage for armies all
over the world, hundreds of different

armies, different types of camouflage
and the inventor of the invisible cloak.

And one of the things that I was
hoping to talk about there was sort

of the specifics of camouflage.

Cause he'd come at it with a
very scientific perspective

and the conversation went
in a different direction.

It was awesome conversation.

But I thought maybe we can delve a little
bit into the specifics of camouflage.

Do we need this super
expensive stuff that comes

Paul Ballard: out every single year?

That's really it in the end, because
we like to reach out to, you know, the,

the viewers of the Silvercore podcast,
you know, and they've got questions

like, man, this stuff's expensive and
do I need to spend the money on it?

And so on and so forth.

But let's start from the beginning.

What is camouflage all about?

It's meant to alter the appearance of, of
someone, something to make it blend into

an environment so that it's not obvious
to, probably in our case, an animal,

a bird, uh, that we might be pursuing,
uh, in the military, it might hmm.

We typically look at the most
important things, is shape,

shine, shadow, and silhouette.

And another part of camouflage,
of course, is going to be movement

and, and, and that, but let's
start, you know, with shape.

Travis Bader: See, I always
learned it as the four S's and

an M or the five S's and an M.

And some people in different areas
will have a little bit different.

And it is,

Paul Ballard: and forgive me if,
if I, in any way, You know, change

up what somebody has learned from
military doctrine or something of

that, but let's talk about shape.

What's going to draw
attention to you in the wild?

Well, we first of all, got to look
at, as far as shape goes, nothing

is 90 degrees, nothing is absolutely
flat, absolutely square, absolutely

horizontal, or absolutely vertical.

And, and all's we need to do is interrupt
any one of those vertical planes,

horizontal planes, uh, or the combination
of the two would become unusual.

Now, plaids may, um, you know, be one
of those things where we're saying that

we've got a, a 90 degree set of planes.

We've got, you know, vertical, horizontal
on a plaid, but wrap it around a human

body and it changes significantly.

Plaid,

Travis Bader: the original
disbursement pattern material.

Paul Ballard: Right.

You know, and the, the Hellanders, they'll
tell you that, but I, as you know, I'm,

I'm purposely wearing this plaid shirt in
a camouflage vest to say, Hey, what the

heck's the difference between the two?

Travis Bader: Yeah.

And if you didn't point that out, I
don't know if the viewers, hopefully it

shows up on I don't know how, how well,

Paul Ballard: but that's my, my,
my goal here is to talk about that.

Travis Bader: So.

I don't think people would actually
look at that and see it as out of place.

Yeah.

Paul Ballard: And, and the two
things combined are helping to break

up my shape, my vertical planes,
my horizontal planes and so on.

So then we said.

Travis Bader: Well, in shape as well,
you know, that's one of the things

when I'm out looking for an animal,
that'll catch my eye in a heartbeat.

And quite often I'll see a tree or a
log that's horizontal and my eye, your

mind just picks up on that right away.

Cause that's odd.

Is that you're seeing
or is it a tree or what?

So we have a lot of vertical lines,
those horizontal lines stick out

Paul Ballard: right away to me.

Yeah.

It's pretty clear that, you know, a deer's
back is, is, is one of those things.

And then, you know, here we are, you know,
uh, ostensibly turkey hunting today, but,

you know, when you talk about shape, a
turkey that has its feathers all together

and is standing, has this sort of.

Almost bottle shape, you know, uh,
it's, it's bulbous at the bottom

tapering up to its neck that looks
totally out of place in nature as well.

When, when that animal's moving around,
well, it's just not out of place, but

it's something that will draw your eyes.

Shadow, you gotta always
be aware of shadow.

Shadow is probably not the biggest thing,
but on a bright sunny day, which we abhor

as hunters, we prefer that, that grayed
out day where we're not looking at, you

know, brilliance on, you know, into our
eyes, onto the horizon or, or whatever.

But again, casting a shadow, um.

Can also draw attention to yourself,
silhouette standing on the top of a hill.

Travis Bader: You can have all the
best camouflage in the world on,

Paul Ballard: and you're silhouetted.

If you're silhouetting
to the sky, so good.

You get up into a tree stand and
you pick a tree that is, you know.

Tall and skinny and nothing behind you.

Now, all of a sudden your, your,
your body shape, your silhouette is

going to, you know, make an unusual
appearance on the trunk of the tree.

So of course, if you're going to use
a climbing tree stand or another, uh,

ladder type tree stand, what's behind you?

Are you putting yourself up appropriately
high so that, you know, the foliage of

the tree behind is going to break that.

That silhouette

Travis Bader: up before you move on
from the, the shadow one, cause you

know, casting a shadow is obviously
something that we have to be conscious of.

But the other part of that, that I've used
very effectively in the past is shadows.

So if you're going to be well
camouflaged up beside a tree.

Or well camouflaged up just in front
of the tree where the shadow is and

anything like, if you think of a
camera and the aperture looking out,

it'll adjust your eye will adjust
to the bright part in behind you.

And that shadow, you become
almost basically invisible.

Paul Ballard: Yeah.

The shadow man or.

This man was, yeah.

Where is this man in
the, and, and very true.

Like, you know, you think that, Oh, I'm
going to back clean up to this, this tree.

Whereas two steps forward of it.

And, and that is really counterintuitive
to what you would think of is

to be in front of something as
opposed to being, being behind it.

Uh, so shadow, silhouette, um, shine.

Right.

Travis Bader: Shine, sheen.

Paul Ballard: Yes.

The watch, the ring.

The sunglasses, you know, miles away.

You can be seeing the white
patch on, on, on your hat.

But the biggest one is your face.

And, and a lot of people really,
you know, take it for granted.

They're pull their ball cap down,
but having a face veil, very, very

important to, you know, if you're
going to consider hiding yourself.

Uh, from anybody to see you is one of
these mesh type face veils, which will

just take that, that shine away a day.

Like we were going through today,
which went through sunshine

and rain and everything else.

Pouring rain.

Pouring rain.

Oh my God.

Soak to the bone.

Hail actually as well.

But you get your face on a hillside.

Looking into the sun and all you got to
do is get your partner to go, you know,

on the other side and look back and
they will attest to how much that shows.

And the color that shows is kind
of almost a pinky orangey red

is, is what the, the normal face.

And it really doesn't matter.

It, you know, we're going
to be inclusive here.

It's not just a Caucasian face.

It's, it's anybody.

You know, the shine,
the oils in your face.

So, you know, using a little bit of
a face veil, or maybe the application

of a bit of a camouflage makeup is
going to help to break that shine down.

Sure.

You know, and a lot of people take
for granted too, you know, what the

heck, you know, are you wearing that
big, uh, Rolex Seamaster or something

like that, that's going to shine back.

I got a, I got a Brittany dog that is
crazy for shadows and shapes and shine,

and he will follow the reflection off
of my phone, my watch or anything else.

Well, if he's doing that, then
certainly any of the other animals

that we're trying to disguise ourselves
from are going to see that too.

What do you think

Travis Bader: about,
let's say your firearm?

A, uh, stainless barrel.

And

Paul Ballard: that, you know, one
of the things I truly believe, take

the time to buy a little bit of that
camo wrap tape and throw it on there.

Blue steel, you know, a nice, you know,
we were talking about Brownings today,

Browning and their, their famous glossy
stocks and highly polished blue steel.

That's going to reflect light.

Um, We look at, uh, you know, different
types of firearms are marketed, uh,

for different situations, like snow
goose shotguns are always going to

be a white camo that's on there,
but you know, if you're hunting

them in the snow and stuff, that.

Goes all the way back to our shape
concern of that straight vertical, you

know, or horizontal, or maybe an angled
line that's going to stick out because

it's so straight and it's so, you know,
dimensionally different than a branch

or, uh, you know, the, the stalk of a,
of a large plant or anything like that.

So, you know, yeah.

Put a little bit of camo wrap on there.

Be very careful not to obscure
your sights in any way.

If you would be using a shotgun, you
don't want to put it so that it, you

know, as you bring the, you know,
the, the vented rib up or anything

like that, it's going to cause you
problems there, but yeah, breaking

up that long shape is a good idea.

You can buy all kinds of, you know,
wash off paint as well, uh, that

you can put onto your firearm that,
that is not going to hurt it and

very easy to remove in the end.

We look at a lot of what's being marketed
now, camouflage stocks, um, Cerakote

and, and the other, you know, coatings
that can go on there to cutaway, shine,

shape, and, you know, and indeed, you
know, what might be silhouette as well.

Yeah.

That's a, it's a huge consideration.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: So I guess we have an M now,

Paul Ballard: movement.

Yeah, yeah, a lot of people don't really
appreciate is, you know, you got to stay

still or keep your movements behind a
blind or behind the tree, you know, um,

really is, as you get into this hunting
thing or you're experiencing it, you

start to know how much movement you
can get away with and, and the type of

movement that you can get away with.

Slow, steady, measured moves
tend not to draw attention.

I've spent lots of time and few
things are spookier in a whitetail

doe when she's trying to look after
her fawn and she locks onto you.

And, and that's the time to
practice to see how far you

can push her before she flags.

Usually it'll be the, the, the, the fawn
that'll flag first, but how far can you go

with her, you know, in, in your movements,
but those slow bringing the rifle to bear

and, and something to practice as well,
uh, that you don't panic when you all

of a sudden spot that game that's out
there, snap the rifle or shotgun up to

your shoulder, and that could potentially
spook the, the game that's out there.

Travis Bader: I've always lived under
the doctrine that your number one best

camouflage that you can have with you is.

Be still, be still, just be still,
uh, over top of anything else that you

have, because if you're going to see
an animal, if you think about it, the

first thing that usually gives it away
is you see movement out of the corner

of your eye and it catches you and
instinctively in the back of our head,

we just catch this, animals do that.

So

Paul Ballard: we're, you
know, let's be upfront.

We're talking about.

A visual, uh, thing here.

Well, there's two more S's

Travis Bader: that we can put in.

Oh yeah.

Paul Ballard: But, but let's,
let's not forget the most important

things, honestly, with dealing
with animals is scent and sound.

That's the two more S's I'm talking about.

Like your scent is the
biggest giveaway of all.

And, and I feel that.

Not enough people pay enough
attention to what's the prevailing

wind, what's it doing with, you
know, my scent at the moment.

I can have the finest, you know,
blind camouflage, I'm hidden, I'm

not moving, and everything else.

But if the wind is coming from
my back and blowing it straight

at, you know, my intended prey...

Um, there's a problem and I, and I, I, I
said this before in other podcasts, I've

watched deer walk into a scent line and
it's like they walked into a brick wall.

You know, they're, they're, they're
kind of aware they're, they're looking

at something, they're not sure and bam.

They stop and it's momentary and
then they boot, you know, from

that, from that, from that smell.

So scent, you know, kind of outside of
the camouflage thing, but very, very

important, you know, you, you want to
hide yourself to get out there, to be a

better hunter, you know, take the time
to, you know, have a good wash with.

Unscented products, you know, make sure
that, uh, your clothing is properly

washed with an unscented product.

We go back to, there's one other one
that we're going to get to, and it's

going to be color here in a sec, but the
ultraviolet killer in, and a lot of these.

You know, they call them
sport wash and other names.

Very important, you know, to, to kill the,
uh, ultraviolet reflection, uh, of, uh,

Travis Bader: Yeah, your
normal detergent will have

Paul Ballard: a bit of a UV.

Right.

Yeah.

Everybody wants new gain for the scent.

Cause it smells good.

To us.

What's that?

To us.

To us.

Yeah.

As humans, it smells good.

And then it also, we want
to brighten those colors so

that, you know, when you've.

Paid good money for that, you know, that
Hawaiian shirt or whatever that, you know,

nice rayon, uh, flowers and bananas and
pineapples, it should stand up right.

And, and that's what you're looking at.

And surprisingly people spend big money
on camouflage clothing and the sizing and

the brighteners are in that clothing when
you buy it and they don't take the time to

go home and wash it in a UV killer where.

Even quality camouflage is going
to reflect, you know, the, the UV.

Is it the UV spectrum of light?

I'm not sure.

Yeah, I guess that's what it is.

But you know, you're, you're, you've,
you've really got to take the time

to, to do everything you can because
animals are different than us.

Now we can say unequivocally that the
birds see every color that we see.

Why are birds brilliantly colored?

Well, that's so they can attract mates.

That's so that they can come together.

And, and I would say, uh, essential
to, you know, good bird hunting and

particularly waterfowl hunting and turkey
hunting is that you are as invisible

to that animal as, as can possibly be.

So breaking up your shape, not
reflecting the light, uh, making sure

that the colors of your clothing are
appropriate, uh, nothing that, that,

that animal is going to be able to see.

Travis Bader: So I know your thoughts
on this because we've talked about

it before, but I figured it's worth
just having it for posterity here.

Um, for scent, both you
and I will carry a little.

Talk powder dispenser aware of where your
wind, we see where the wind is going.

Some people say, well, I don't need that.

I've got a lighter later.

I just flicked the lighter and I can
see which way the wind is blowing.

Paul Ballard: You have a mechanical
sound to the click of a Bic lighter.

Now I, I still use it.

I still, every once in a while,
before I go in, you know, to start

still hunting into an area, I might
click my Bic lighter, but I'm very

conscious of the fact that that.

Mechanical, that metallic clack
of that lighter can, can give

myself away to, to a deer.

Right.

Um, it's way better.

You get in, you, and that is the
trick with those talc puffers.

You know, you want to make sure
it's shooking up well, because

there's the movement, there's the,
you know, the, the activity that's

going to draw attention to you.

So, but they're excellent.

You know, you give a little
bit of puff to the wind.

You see where it's going.

If you're not worried about
movement or anything else.

Or, you know, sound is the lighter, but
movement, you can pick a little bit of

dust up off the ground and throw that as
well, some, some pine needles, but it's,

it's worth, you know, the, the three or
4 that it costs to get a little, uh, wind

Travis Bader: detector.

One thing that I've found interesting
when we talk about the sound portion of

it is you usually get one free pass, not
always, but usually if I make a sound.

The animal up, alert, ears
are going, trying to figure

out where this is coming from.

And I better be quiet and not move.

Be very still, but I find
usually one free pass.

And then the second one, bang,
located, gone in the other direction.

Paul Ballard: What I like to do in a
circumstance, like we're going through

in the last couple of days and days
coming up, we're turkey hunting.

The white tail are everywhere in the
woods right now, and we've seen that.

We've probably seen 50, 60, I
don't know, since we've been here.

And this is the time.

to test what works, what doesn't.

So, you know, work the, the, the
pump on your shotgun or work the

bolt on your rifle, you know,
click your safety on and off.

I've listened to people.

Uh, we were talking about a person there
recently, MM, who used to always talk

about, you know, the rifle he would pick,
he was dead against certain types of

safety because he thought they were too.

Too noisy, but this is the time
to see what you can get away with.

If there's no turkeys and just
whitetail stand in there looking

at you, you know, test them out.

Give it a click, see what happens.

Yeah.

Okay.

You know, that's it.

It's all about learning.

It's about seeing what you
can get, get away with.

Also, you know, we go back
to where's your scent.

Also, if the wind is in your face,
the sound is not going to travel

necessarily in that direction.

It may travel that way.

So all these things to be aware of.

So

Travis Bader: one other trick that
I'll use, and this is from like

kiteboarding, it's 101 what they
teach you, is you just turn your

head until you can hear the sound.

The, or feel the wind
in both ears equally.

And now you're looking directly into it.

I know a lot of people, they try and
get one year or they try and maybe

wet a finger and feel where it's
at, but just turn your head, you get

the equal sound of both ears, you're
looking directly into the wind.

Yeah.

Paul Ballard: Okay.

Well, we'll note that one.

I'll give that a try.

I always go by the back of my neck often.

You know, I feel that's the most sensitive
thing I've got to where the wind is

when it's, when it's coming that way.

And I've been, take me back to not
too far from where we are right now,

watching the, you know, some whitetail
and, and starting to stalk them.

And as soon as the, the,
the wind changes, which it.

You know, is apt to do.

Sure.

I felt it on the back of my neck and
all of them snapped their heads back,

looked at me and booked it for me.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

It's just how much that scent can carry.

All right.

Let's bring the other
one into the room here.

Is that color?

All right.

Color.

So we kind of started talking about this.

Birds can see color.

So only a fool would go duck
hunting wearing a hunter orange

cap, because that's going to draw
that bird's attention to you.

Now, there is a legal requirement
in many parts of this country when

you're upland bird hunting, that you
must wear, you know, a blaze orange.

But often that type of hunting is
approaching that bird that's, that's

holding cover and, and almost.

You know, anybody that's worth his salt
is using a dog to put upland birds up, uh,

grouse, maybe not so much, but certainly
quail, pheasant, partridge, you know,

you're, you're going to use the dog.

So the dog's going to pin the bird.

You, who cares if you've got a
neon flashing light on top of your

head, that bird is trying to hide
from you, mostly from your dog.

And so it doesn't matter, but let's.

Turn around on the ambush
style hunting for birds.

Well,

Travis Bader: hold on one
point on that one, birds.

Uh, I knew a fellow, actually I
knew his, I think it was his nephew

and this guy, he raised grouse.

He'd go and he'd train dogs.

Raise grouse.

Yeah, to live cats, he's grouse and he'd
take them back and he'd pay helicopter

pilots, take them up the mountain to
remote areas and get different grouse.

And everyone says, oh, you know, it's
a fool's hand, a fool's chicken, right?

Um, He says, no, no, no,
they're actually really smart.

They've got the camouflage
and they sit still.

It's not that they're stupid.

They just think if they sit as still
as they can, they're using all of

their camouflage that they have.

And a lot of times that works, not
for so much for a dog, but, uh,

for humans, like you can walk right
beside one and not even see it.

If,

and,

Paul Ballard: and you got to think
in anybody that's hunted, you know,

gross in, in the woods, it's usually
when the thing blows up that you

Travis Bader: actually see it.

And your heart's thumping
out of your body.

If he

Paul Ballard: didn't.

Blow off the ground like that with
all the wing flapping and, and

everything else goes along, you
probably wouldn't have noticed.

Yeah.

You typically see them because of
their shape when you're, you know,

going down a road or down a, you
know, through a logging slash or

on a skidder trail or whatever.

It's their shape that gives
them away or their movement.

Right.

But if they're holding still.

They're very effective
in using your camouflage.

So, again, we tend to, um, like those
are the, The type of birds that, you

know, we are looking for, we're trying
to find, so it's working, but it's

the other birds that we're trying to
hide from that we want to call to us.

Uh, so waterfowl, classic, you know, you
put your, your decoy set out there and

you, you commence to call, uh, you're
hoping for a bird passing by that's

going to maybe see your decoy set.

So it's important that everything
looks good to that animal as it's

coming towards the potential decoys.

We're.

Turkey hunting, we're putting out decoys,
we're calling and everything else.

So all that bird should see is what
it believes to be other members

of its species or, you know, akin
to it that it's going to come to,

you should be not in the picture.

So you got to understand that if
that bird has, you know, the, the

cone cells in its eyes to see.

All the colors of the spectrum.

So your coloration has to be right.

You can't have that big pink face.

You can't have, you know, that
the emblem on your ball cap.

Uh, you can't have your watch, your rings.

You can't have the shine
off your firearm, all that.

Incredibly important with those animals,
but the color is, is the big thing.

Let's move over to the ungulates.

Before we do that,

Travis Bader: the color blue, I've
heard this before, have you heard this?

The color blue is something that,
uh, tends to stand out to ungulates.

Well, that's

Paul Ballard: what I was going to say.

Oh, is it?

I thought we were moving on from color.

No, no.

Oh, no, no.

But this is still in the color.

Now, keeping with the color, when now
we're dealing with big game, so you

know, all of the deer species, they
are known and deer species, uh, again,

the bovids, the bison, uh, go cheap.

They are all red and green blind.

So in their color blindness, so they
don't see, but they all see shades of

gray, black, and the blue spectrum.

So the worst color you could possibly,
you know, select, you know, if you, if you

were avoiding, you know, khaki, olive drab
and so on would be anything that's blue.

Um, and I still remember too, you know,
hunting with a individual who wore a

neoprene neck strap on his binoculars
and it was like an electric blue, he

was a cheapskate, he would never buy
anything that, you know, other than

it was price point, but you know,
this soft neoprene neck strap, man,

you could see that thing forever.

And I, and now, you know, understanding
more to this day about how that.

Part of the, you know, the light
spectrum is visible to the ungulate.

So we see many, many parts of, of
North America where the regulations say

you, you have to wear a hunter orange,
uh, when you're big game hunting and

people think here in British Columbia.

There is no such a regulation.

We, we can wear anything we want.

There's no, nothing says you, you
have to, you know, have some high

visibility clothing on if, for this
particular type of hunt, and we're only

a, you know, a province away, Alberta
requires that Washington state, you

know, requires that Idaho requires it.

Montana requires that, you know,
all these different rules about what

color clothing, we don't have that.

Mm-hmm.

. But the bottom line is, When you see this
blaze orange, uh, camouflage clothing,

you know, it has like, it looks like
branches and everything else in that,

you know, and as much as you think, oh
my God, everybody's going to see me, the

animals are not going to, the ungulates,
uh, are not going to pick that up.

Right.

So breaking your pattern.

Right.

You're, you're, you're achieving
that shape issue, perhaps

the silhouette issue, but.

If you, you know, do have concerns
about people seeing you while you're

out there, a lot of people have this
mindset that, Oh yeah, people are shooting

everywhere and people are getting shot.

It's not really the case.

Like, you know, in, in the entire
country, two, maybe three people in

a year might die, uh, as a result
of being shot in a hunting accident.

It's, it's not realistic to.

That's higher than I
would think, honestly.

Yeah.

And I don't even think it.

You know, it's that much, like I know
the United States, they show maybe states

where it's two or three people and you
think, well, British Columbia, a hundred

thousand hunters, uh, taking out licenses.

It's, it's really not something that
we're hearing about or anything else.

And occasionally, you know, when people
are being shot, it's not that they're

being shot because, you know, somebody
seeing them out in, you know, at distance

in the field, it's usually stuff like
somebody walks in front of a muzzle.

Um, you know, they're, they're trying
to take dangerous game and they're

not paying attention to whatever.

It's not really, you know.

The need for the high visibility
clothing, but it's still a good idea.

It just adds a measure of safety.

No,

Travis Bader: I actually know
a fellow who was bison hunting.

Yeah.

Did I tell you about this one?

No, no.

He was out on his bright red quad and, uh,
Two shots, someone took two shots at him.

Actually, he's, uh, planning to be on
the podcast at some point, but just

having to lock him down cause he's
a farmer and he's got a pretty busy

Paul Ballard: schedule.

Yeah, but now he's bright

Travis Bader: red.

Bright red.

And another hunter thought he was a bison.

I

Paul Ballard: don't know.

Or what?

Or what?

Or yeah, that's right.

And then, I mean, he's
doing everything he can.

Like some people say, well, I'd
rather be camouflaged and sitting

still when there's other hunters
about so that they don't see me.

Done this since, you know, I was a kid,
this is like 50 years of being out in

the woods, you know, spring and fall.

I've never felt that somebody had taken
a shot at me, you know, at, at me,

I've heard shots going through the air.

I've heard, you know, being in a
blind or being lower, you know,

than where people are shooting.

I've heard that, but I've never thought
that I was actually being shot at.

Oh, wait.

Paul Jacobson and I were, were duck
hunting once and we got shot at,

but it was, we're duck hunting and
somebody kind of, I think they were

the, like they were tracking a low
flying teal and, uh, we saw it coming.

We basically turned away from it and,
you know, felt a little bit of a shot,

but that would, that would be it.

But honestly, I, it's not a huge
concern, but going back to that.

If it gives you a measure of,
you know, personal security or

feelings, you don't have to worry
about wearing those bright colors.

Now, colors, camouflage,
camouflage specific.

We love to go to, you
know, the local, you know.

Supplier of the latest and
greatest in camouflage.

And if you do the slightest bit of
reading, people will say, well, you

know, our, you know, XYZ style of
camouflage, let's call it, you know,

timber withering, you know, whatever.

Version 7.

2.

Old man, seven ghost, you know,
version completely mimicking the

bark of the Douglas fir tree,
you know, is, is the answer.

And, and people will buy into that.

And I honestly think, you know,
you see people buying camouflage

to appeal to their own eye.

For the lot of part,
that's exactly what it is.

And.

What does it matter whether you
buy the same patterned pants

is the same patterned shirt.

The idea is you want to break up your
shape, your silhouette, you know.

As long as you don't

Travis Bader: have like horizontal
on one and vertical on the other one.

Paul Ballard: Yeah, but you know, and
then, and then we look at, you know,

the military is the greatest one for
camouflage, you know, you look at

tiger, you know, the Vietnam era.

Tiger stripe, which is definitely
a black line through it.

And almost to my eye stands out, but you
know, in certain applications that go

through, you look at the U S military.

Now, every one of their
working dress uniforms.

Is camouflage, um, you know, but the
Navy has a bit of blue in theirs and

the Air Force is kind of a grayish
green, you know, uh, the Marines has

got some more brown in it wall, but
that's it, unless they're being deployed

in the desert, all these things.

I guess one

Travis Bader: thing to
think about when you're.

Wearing that camouflage is not to
accentuate points on your body.

And, you know, it's like when you're
being taught how to put face paint on

and they say, you take a flashlight, put
it under your face, the parts that go

dark, you make bright, the parts that
go bright, you make dark, and you just

kind of opposite everything up, right?

You put a

Paul Ballard: mesh veil on your face.

Or you put a mesh veil on it.

Yeah, just to,

Travis Bader: you know.

But the same thought pattern, if you're
going to be wearing something, if

it's accentuating your shoulders or
accentuating lines in ways that, uh,

Paul Ballard: you wouldn't want.

And I think every military, modern
military You know, of the, in the world

has spent a huge amount of money listening
to some experts saying, you know, this

digital pattern is going to be better
than this leaf pattern is going to be

better than this grass pattern and so on.

Travis Bader: Or they get Guy Kramer from
Silvercore podcast five, I think it was.

Yeah.

That's the Gore Optifade
line, that's his creation.

And what

Paul Ballard: you got to look
at is it's the human eye that

they're trying to deceive.

The human eye that is fully equipped
with, you know, Rods and cones.

Rods and cones.

And the cone cells, which can of
course see all the colors and visual

acuity and everything else that the
animals, the ungulates will lack.

So let's go back to the color.

I'm going to spend big
money on this outdoor gear.

I want it to be windproof, weatherproof,
you know, shed the rain, repel

the rain or whatever like this.

Hunting season for me.

And a lot of guys is
like 10 days in the fall.

So you're, are you really justified?

And this is where we, when we've had
this discussion about having this talk,

is it justified to spend the amount of
money you do to buy camouflage clothing?

For 10 days, or should you be out there
buying really good outdoor gear with its

insulating value, it's, you know, water
repellent, water shedding value, uh,

it's wear resistance and everything else.

So if you were to buy it in a drab gray or
green or light colored brown or something

like that, wouldn't that serve in a
lot of cases, your purposes, you know.

Better because then come your camping
trip or your backpacking trip, or

you're going to the sports field to
watch your kid play soccer in the

pouring rain, you're not necessarily
standing there wearing camouflage.

Travis Bader: That brings
up an interesting point.

Cause my favorite color is camouflage.

Well, that brings up an interesting point.

There's a couple of months ago, I was in
Nuremberg, uh, and I was having dinner

with the head of training for the Bavarian
region for firearms and hunter education.

Yeah.

And camouflage, now they've got
a very traditional approach.

I think it's, what was he saying?

A year and a quarter it takes for someone
to go through and get their hunter

education and learning about dogs and
about bugs and about, uh, the ecology, all

of this different thing, but part of their
hunter ethics and their, uh, their program

is, you know, you're out there in an area,
public land, and you run into somebody

else who's a non hunter and you're.

Decked out head to toe in camouflage.

And what sort of an interaction are they
going to be having with you as opposed

to, and he's a big proponent of the
traditional German style garb when you're.

Paul Ballard: Kind of that foresty green.

Right.

With black leather
accents on your, you know.

Right.

But

Travis Bader: wherever somebody
sits on that spectrum of, Oh, it

doesn't matter what other people
think, or I want to be, I'm conscious

about that social aspect of it.

The fact is.

He and many others are extremely
successful wearing their olive

drab and their, their beiges and.

My old

Paul Ballard: man hunted all those years.

He wasn't the greatest hunter in the
world, but he never wore camouflage.

Sure.

He had a big old, you know.

Knit sweater and, uh, he actually had
a buckskin jacket that he made out

of, well, buckskin, it was an elkskin
jacket with fringe and everything.

He used to horseback hunt all the
time and he used to wear that.

So who knows?

I mean, that's a whole other thing.

Old Jeremiah Johnson.

Yeah.

Hunting off a horseback, the horses
can be your camouflage in a bit of

a way too, but I don't think anybody
should hide what they're doing to

say, well, I'm not going to wear
camouflage because I'm embarrassed.

With certain people about hunting.

You should never be that way.

You should, you should celebrate
the fact that you are in the

outdoors and you want to hunt.

And if you want to wear camouflage,
I'm not, uh, this is not an

advocacy to stop wearing camouflage.

No.

This is, I'm, I'm advocating for the guy
that's making the decision to maybe buy,

you know, a solid color, you know, maybe.

khaki, maybe gray, maybe brown,
even, you know, like a dull

red or something like that.

It don't be afraid, you know, you're
going to get way more use out of

a piece of clothing like that.

And you can still wear it for hunting and
you can, you know, break up your shape

maybe by throwing a vest on like I've got
on, but man, again, dig this plaid shirt.

What's the difference
between that and camouflage?

That's breaking up my shape.

It's got all these really, you
know, neutral tones that wouldn't be

seen by an animal that's out there.

I'm good.

Uh, some of the other things too,
like camouflage gaiters, you know,

will help break up your shape.

You know, maybe you've got a solid
color pair of pants on and a, and

a camouflage vest between that, you
know, top and bottom, maybe a camo

hat, you know, those types of things.

I don't know.

You get more, more mileage out
of that really expensive, high

tech clothing that's out there.

We look at our dads, our grandfathers,
you know, and great grandfathers,

they didn't wear camouflage.

It didn't matter where it was.

That was not a thing.

Uh, they wore, you know...

They wore plaids, they wore, you
know, and then again, the high tech

clothing of those days was wool.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Wool, good old wool, nice

Paul Ballard: woolly pull.

Good old wool, you know, it was
quiet, it was warm, uh, it would

shed the water, uh, to some degree.

Um, if you're really stuck,
you put on a rubber jacket.

You know, and, and again, I always
say too, the good thing about rain,

shine becomes a bit less of an issue
because, you know, the leaves are

shining from the rain and stuff.

So if you are wearing a solid colored,
you know, rubber jacket, it's not

that big of a deal in the rain.

Sound is not that big
of a deal in the rain.

When it's really hammering down
with rain, you know, that's the time

to move and, and get out there and
without worrying about your sound.

But again, our forefathers.

They hunted for years,
blue jeans, plaid jackets.

It works.

Yeah.

And so those guys were probably better
at their movement, um, you know, at,

at not exposing themselves, staying in
the shadows, all that can go forward.

We, you know, we should never, ever,
ever be ashamed of our hunter's heritage.

And if, if wearing camouflage
is a part of that, that's fine.

I'm just.

Advocating for those people that go,
man, you know, when I go home and tell

mama how much this suit costs, because
you could go to the big box stores and

you know, starts with a W and they got a
whole hangar full of camouflage clothing

and it's reasonably priced, but it ain't
necessarily the best high tech stuff.

You know, it'll, it'll
probably be warm enough.

But it doesn't, you know, it may not
have all those, you know, pit zips and

breathability and, and the things you
really want, if you want to get into some

of the more technical aspects of hunting.

And that's going to be
a comfort thing for you.

Right.

And, and so we see, you know, these
specialist companies, you know, the

letter K jumps out immediately in my mind.

Kmart, yes.

Yeah, no, not Kmart, but you
know, those, uh, those types of.

Very, very high end technical clothing.

You're paying 400 for
a pair of pants, 400.

Like a lot of people.

And you're afraid to sit by a campfire.

Because they're going to be a spark
hole in it or something like that.

Now they're great because
they're breathable.

You can kneel in the snow.

You're not going to get wet through
and everything else like that.

But darn it.

If you get.

that and it's in camel and you
would really like to wear that on,

you know, maybe a cross country
ski trip or something like that.

You know, and everybody's looking
at you like, whoo, well, heck, you

know, why are you wearing camo?

Now, again, don't be afraid,
but you should never be ashamed.

Yeah, never be ashamed.

But if you, if you want to get like sore,
more mileage out of your money, you know.

Don't be afraid, the deer won't care.

They won't care.

Travis Bader: Well, Paul, I think
that was a good fireside chat.

Maybe that's what we'll call this,

Paul Ballard: fireside chats.

Yeah.

Yeah, another, another fireside.

I just want to talk a little bit
more about the turkey hunting.

It's not going well.

Uh, two hens this morning.

That's it.

Couple of calls, very lame.

Travis Bader: Should we
talk about, uh, seafoam?

Oh

Paul Ballard: yeah.

So yeah.

So.

Yes, hunting equipment that only
gets used in the hunting season.

And, and may that include your,
your UTV or your side by side,

your ATV or your quad, whatever.

And of course you like to protect
it by dumping things into your

gas can, into your gas tank.

And then what happened to

Travis Bader: us?

So it gets put away for
storage last hunting season,

comes out this hunting season.

Put some seafoam, little
octane, some, uh, not much.

That, what, you know what I'm trying
to recall if I doubled up or what, but.

Paul Ballard: Clearly
more than what it needed.

Something

Travis Bader: went awry, a
lot more heat coming out.

Vehicle's not working the way it should.

The license plate, I should post
a picture of that license plate.

Yeah, it's pretty good.

It's pretty brown and
charcoal y right now.

But, uh, yeah, test your kid out.

The smell

Paul Ballard: was burning celery.

Burnt celery.

Burning celery.

That's, that's the only
way I could describe it.

But yeah, she, she was running
hot and then not running well.

So yeah, we'll finish up with that.

I don't know if we were chasing
the turkey away with that.

Perhaps.

Uh, but you know what, Travis,
it's been amazing coming out here,

watching you set up for, for doing
this, this little production here.

And, uh, you know, I, I hope the
folks out there, you know, are,

are enjoying all of the stuff that
you're putting forward for them.

And, and I'm very honored
to be a part of this.

That's a fun.

Travis Bader: Thanks so much for being

Paul Ballard: here.

All right.