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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
Yeah. That seems like the major unlock. The fact that you can paste in code and have it explain something to you. Like, I wish we had this years ago. Yeah.
Tyler:I remember when I Yeah. I I had applied to a company, and they required it was a web designer position, and they required CSS three, which I had no experience with. I was like, ah. I was like, darn it. White lie.
Tyler:A little a little white lie. Yeah. Sure. I know how to do it. Knew how
Nick:to see s
Tyler:Oh, yeah.
Nick:That's what I do all time.
Tyler:And then I had I got the job and then I spent it was two weeks to start, so I spent two weeks learning s three, which, I mean, to be fair, isn't the hardest thing, but it's still a new concept to learn. Yeah. But I meant can away with it?
Nick:We are kind of live now. This is what I always wanted to say. We are live. And we're Officially live. We are officially live.
Nick:Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:Hello. Hello.
Nick:Hello. Hello.
Tyler:How are we doing today, Nick? Dropping into another design podcast episode.
Nick:Oh, yeah. Design table podcast to be specific. I'm always looking forward to to our recording sessions. You know? Same here.
Nick:Same here. Yeah. Well, that's that's good to hear. That's good to hear.
Tyler:You know, it's wouldn't do it.
Nick:No. No. No. We're we're doing this out of our free will. Actually, we're we're doing this because we want to.
Nick:Yeah. That's that's an important thing. And, you know, today, we're going to talk about job titles. Yeah. Not job title, job titles because there are so many.
Nick:There used to be even more, and there are going to be some more in the future as well. And I feel like it's confusing, not only for designers, but also for people looking for designers. Maybe
Tyler:we can start with our own job titles and what what does that mean in our day to day.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. Shall I shall I go first? Go for it.
Nick:You know, what what I put on on my website is a UX and product designer. Okay. And that's because I see the shift to product designer as being the the the main job title, but not everyone's on that wave yet. So I'm trying to catch, you know, two types of fish. People looking for UX someone or a product someone.
Nick:Yeah. So I'm a UX and product designer.
Tyler:That makes sense. So you're catching you have bait for different fish. Yeah. That's a terrible analogy.
Nick:Yeah. I'm not sure if that's that makes any sense. Like, I mean but but it it it is true. I'm trying to appeal to different types of companies.
Tyler:Okay. And when you're and when you're imagining someone having a liking towards UX or product, what are they what's what does each title kinda speak to that different persona?
Nick:No. Me, it's it's the same. Like, I don't think there's a difference, but it's usually someone who's not a designer, and they they get hit by one of the buzzwords. You know, I I had a call recently phone call. Someone told me, like, yeah.
Nick:Well, one one of my team members talked about this UI slash UX thing. And then I started searching online and your name came up. You know? Probably wouldn't have happened if if I just called myself a product designer. You know?
Nick:But more, let's say, modern clients with some technical know how, they're looking for product designers, and some of them are even very outspoken about, you know, UX designer is not going to last, and it's all product design now. So that's why I have both. It it really depends on on the buzzword they believe in.
Tyler:Okay. So it sounds like an SEO play then.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. More or less. Yeah. I think that's true.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. You yeah. You caught me there.
Tyler:There you go. On my side, well, I work in house. So I'm senior product designer. So Mhmm. I'm following the trend, I guess, you can say.
Tyler:Yep. I think it just denotes, like, the I think it's just become it's become the the all encompassing designer. So focused on not just one specific area, but, like, end to end, including the kind of business strategy as well. I think that's that's why they kinda set that title, and that's the the particular person that they're searching for.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, that that's the interesting thing. Like, you can be very stubborn or be a visionary and say, like, well, this is my label. This is my job title.
Nick:You also have to adjust to what people are looking for. You know, the what the most common job vacancy is labeled.
Tyler:Because we had, like, these different there we have, like, UI so the different titles. So we have, like, UI designer. We have UX designer. We have UI UX designer. Now now the newly formed UX product designer.
Tyler:I think they're they're just I think they came out of, like, larger enterprises. Because I feel like startups, there's usually just a designer or maybe two or two designers max. But, like, larger larger companies, as part as as companies get larger, they need more specialized people. So there's probably a team dedicated to just the if they were to call the UI designer, then you're just addressing the UI. So there's, like, aesthetics, and then UX was kind of everything before that discovery kind of mapping out the flows, etcetera.
Tyler:I think that's where that came out of because I've never actually held the official title of UI designer. Mhmm. Yeah. Maybe it's just a consequence of living in the startup space.
Nick:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. It could be. I and this is not based on on any data at all, but I don't think the UI designer as a job title became ever became as mainstream as UX designer.
Nick:And in the in the, mainstream UX world, people assume that UI is part of the UX job title, and that's why you had this hybrid UI slash UX designer role as well.
Tyler:Yeah. So I always found it interesting why we separated the two. But maybe it's, like, a a consequence of, like, who you're looking for. So I'm looking for someone who does UX and also does does design as well. Yeah.
Tyler:But I always found that UX was the to your point, like, all the all encompassing. So, like, part of UX is how it looks. So it's like, I if you look at a a giant circle, it's UX, and a smaller circle is is UI parts. So it's all Yeah. It's all UX.
Nick:Now you also have a few people who say, if you look at those circles again, that there's an even bigger circle around the UX circle, which is is the CX circle.
Tyler:Ah, okay. The customer experience.
Nick:Yeah. Which I I I think is an even more niche job title, not something that ever got to a mainstream size. And then there's another circle outside of the CX circle, which is service design, which I feel like is the the job title that, like, pure old school UX people wanted UX to be, and then UX turned out to be more UI slash products. And then they went on their own and created, you know, service design as UX two point o.
Tyler:I'm less familiar with service design. I keep hearing it, but I never I never investigate Could you kind of explain to me what, like, where that came about?
Nick:Well, let let's say you you know, it's in in the start up world, I think it's it's less applicable. But if you provide a if if your product is part of a larger service, then you are looking at at, something, you know, off screen. You know, one example from from long ago, I might have mentioned it before is the, you know, the the the golf clubs slash golf course that I used to to do a project with. They had the member for a day experience, you know, because a golf membership is is quite expensive, but they wanted to have a a more mainstream And then they said, like, well, you can be a member for one day, and that's their whole service. So it had some products that needed product design, you know, your sign a sign up form and sign in form and, you know, that kind of stuff kinda kinda kinda things.
Nick:But all of these products were just one step into, you know, in a in a larger service. You know? So you discover that they exist. You go to their website. You're convinced to give it a try.
Nick:You book your day and and time, and you arrive. When you arrive, well, you have to sign in. So someone greets you at the door and they bring you in, and they have their own apps to figure out where should this person go to. Like, what's their starting time? What's the starting hole?
Nick:You know, that kinda kinda stuff. Do they start on on one or on ten? You know? And and then the person starts, but they want to order something. You know?
Nick:Then they want to have a drink when they get back at the clubhouse, for example. And then they leave, so they they agree to that saying goodbye, and then they get an email, you know, at the end, like, hey. How did you experience a golf membership of a four day? Like, all these things together, that's the whole service. And it's much more than just, like, the screens you're looking at.
Nick:It's the the the whole experience of I want to feel like a rich dude on the golf course for one day. You know? So it's much more human centered instead of human behind the screen centered. And I'm sure if if a service designer is listening now, they're very angry. Like, no.
Nick:No. No. There's way more to it. But that's my, you know, limited experience at doing, like, one or two service design projects. It's it's really about the emotional for a full service.
Tyler:Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. And and I'm a fan of, like, ditching, like, the word user as part of it. Like, you had mentioned before, like, customer experience.
Tyler:Mhmm. Because if you've ever been in a user interview and you refer to them as a user, it feels like very dehumanizing. It's like Yeah. We're we love to speak to our users. Like, okay.
Tyler:Well, I'm a customer. I I paid for your service. Yeah. It feels more personal considering I'm a customer rather than a user.
Nick:Okay. Okay. Yeah. So you would you would say, you know, replace user with customer. And and, you know, in practice, I can get into that.
Nick:I I I think so too. You know, I do projects where we talk about researchers, about agencies, about brands, and because they are the type of users you get in different projects. But when you are talking more about, like, UX vision, you're you're you're writing on social media or you're writing a blog or you create a video or or products, I think then it's fine to talk about a user because you're not actually in a project. It's just, you know, more a a concept. But do you think that's enough to to change UX as a as a label because of the you?
Tyler:Well, I in your example, that makes sense. But you wanna think of it, like, holistically, like, who are we servicing? Like, our clients, and there's a connotation with that. So it's less about users like, to me, when I I imagine it's like users in a thing to do or a tool to use. A client needs to be I'm thinking of the hotel experience and also the example you had given.
Tyler:Like, what what is the the user what I caught myself. What is their user journey? They use a a industry term. Like, I wanna think of the holistic experience so that that that customer is happy from every touch point. I think there's a it's maybe it's a reframing of of how to, like, tackle the customer's problems.
Nick:Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Well, it's it's also about the mindset, you know, on the job.
Nick:It could potentially replace the whole persona stuff. Like, if you just have the name right, like, oh, wait. Yes. We're we're talking about, you know, golfers here or researchers or, you know, buyers. I I it happens to me when we talk about website visitors.
Nick:Like, I I tend to call them users as well. Mhmm. But I feel a visitor sounds just as distant as a user.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it's the same thing when when companies consider employees as resources. It's gives, like, the same connotation. It's like a disconnect from the individual that's working.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. Or in this case happened to me. In my in my corporate job years back, I forgot to submit my time sheet. So my manager emailed me a screenshot of his Excel.
Nick:Like and then everyone in that screenshot who didn't submit their time sheet yet, they got, like, this remark like, hey. You're late. Fix it. And then it's not even, hey, Nick, or hey, you know, the other people. In the and in the screenshot, you could just see, like, your employee number and then number of hours missing.
Nick:You know? It was very, very cold and distant. So, yeah, resources, human resources doesn't sound that good.
Tyler:No. Well well, they're also rebranding also in the in the theme of brand. I think they're called people now, like the people department, which which, again, becomes more humanizing.
Nick:That's true. That's true. You know, it's it's a fun label, but it doesn't change too much in practice, I assume. And that's also one of my main, like, concerns or or frustrations with all the design labels. Like, we give something a new label to better fit an an evolving job.
Nick:Mhmm. But it doesn't change too much, like, in practice. You know, UX designer, product designer, it's the same thing, but just different in time.
Tyler:Yeah. True. Though to be fair well, this this I'm give this is an example of something that happened, maybe five or seven years ago. But when I was hiring, at one of the companies I worked at, I we were looking for a UI UX designer. That was the that was the term back then.
Tyler:And then I had UX designers who were applying. And, like, the goal of putting UI UX designer was to looking for someone who can do both, can do the UX part, but also can do the high fidelity design. Yep. And then when I received, like, the u some UX designers portfolio, it was just UX. Like, not a not a stitch of it was clear that they were handing over, like, their their work after they were done to the UI designer.
Nick:Right.
Tyler:So and and that's I think it's just, again, back to the point of just communicating what we're looking for. And we we mentioned, like, what we do changes in the walls, but I think it's just about communicating what we expect that person to do.
Nick:Yep. Yeah. Well, that's I clearly see that, and and I agree. You know, you don't have the time to go through 100 applicants, and 80 of them have the wrong qualifications because you've been unclear. Like, you know, that's a waste of everybody's time, not only yours, but also, you know, giving people false hope, which I don't think we should do.
Nick:Oh, yeah. They should feel like they, you know, apply to something where they can succeed. But if you look at development, I don't think people say I'm a JavaScript developer. You know, they they do say, like, I'm a front end, developer with, you know, experience or specialized in, you know, React or JavaScript or Alpine or, you know, one of the the big JavaScript names. But we don't do that in design.
Nick:You know? You know, we are a UX designer or UI designer or product designer. We you know, if you would follow the front end approach, we you know, you would say, I'm a product designer with, you know, a proficient proficiency or specialty in, you know, the first half of the UX process or user discovery or a product designer expert in UI polish or anything like it. You know? But I feel like we are you know, we create a new label, you know, every other month.
Tyler:Yeah. Well, because, like, you're we're evolving so much. Yeah. Like well, at least when I started, we was web designer. Like Mhmm.
Tyler:Person who designs things on the web. Yep. And we were strictly focused on well, we had the responsibility. Well, some people had the responsibility of doing the design work and also some of the implementation or at least the front end portion of it. And then as time moved on, this UI UX title came about that was shiny and new, and then we started focusing more on that UX piece.
Tyler:And then it I think it became harder to juggle, like, front end design and the UX process. So, like, at some point, we had given up the the coding part or at least some of us did, at least me particularly. And then we were asked to do more more focused on UI UX. And then I think that's the shift that happened to the development where, like, it was less about, like, I'm a Java developer, then it became front end and back end. And now and now they I think now the standard is or depending on the company is now I'm a full stack developer, which means I do I do now both both ends, which is the the front end piece used to be held by design, but now it's now we now there's a clear separation between the two.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:Yeah. Well yeah. Well, that may in in that case, you know, I maybe I'm a bit harsh there because, you know, full stack I feel like full stack is like the developer version of product design, you know, or the other way around. Product design being the full stack version with them for for design. Because it it does include, you know, a whole UX and UI process, I think.
Nick:Mhmm. I
Tyler:think full stack just means does back end and kinda does front end
Nick:for some Really? Really? Okay.
Tyler:Yeah. But, yeah, I can do it. I can I can do it all with with a caveat? Yeah. But, like, to your point, it's I can do it all, but I my focus or what I'm really good at is whether it's front end or back end or Yep.
Tyler:Whatever it is.
Nick:Yeah. Well, that's that's I think that's something people always say. Like, you can do one thing really well and then a few things, you know, kind of well.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:So that's that's what you're saying about full stack. Right? Like, lots of back end, little bit of front end.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it depends on the person. Mhmm. I yeah. I find full stack, it means full stack means I'm better at doing back end development, but I have proficiency in doing I'm able to do front end Yeah.
Tyler:But not as well as I can do back end. And then you'd see then you would hire a front end developer who's it's clear that they specialize in the front end. It just depends on how how invested in design the company is because that you'd hire someone in front end because you want it to be perfect.
Nick:Right. Yeah. Yeah. To supplement the full stack back end specialist.
Tyler:Exactly.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:Well, that that also brings us to, like, the the new unicorn on the block, which is the UX engineer or UI engineer. What are your thoughts there?
Tyler:That's been an interesting one because for for a long time, I was like, oh, that's a shiny new title that I can get into. Yep. I have a bit of the background, but I'd I'd have to do some courses and some learning. But it seems very interesting. Like, the Mhmm.
Tyler:The the fact that you have the ability to do everything means you have the full scope and context. But I'm just I'm concerned about the mental like, the context switching
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:That you'd have to do. Yeah. So, like, you you do you design something, you do the research discovery to the user flows, and then you have to implement it. Yeah. But I I the value, I think, in having, like, the two separate is that there's a bit of accountability.
Tyler:So when I was I was a web designer, and then you'd have a lot of pressure, to kinda deliver quickly, you design things you knew you can design quickly versus designing the most ideal user experience or, like, the greatest design to be, like, superficial about it. So it kinda stifles creativity in a sense that you're Mhmm. You're like, okay. I'm under the gun. I've I have to make sure that we launch this feature or this thing promotion quickly.
Tyler:I'm just gonna stay to this template version. I'm not gonna go outside of my wheelhouse, and it kind of stifles your growth, I I found.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a very interesting one because I am also in that that's, you know, in between state. You know, I I am doing both, as you know, like, design and front end. You know, for one project, I discovered, you know, the context switching, like you say, is is quite rough.
Nick:But, also, it follows each other, you know, quite well. You you design something, and then, you know, we have feedback and user input and, like, all the things you would typically do. At some point, you feel you say, okay. This is good enough or it's ready to be developed. And then you divide your, you know, your development resources, you know, your human resources to say, like, well, you're going to do this bit and you're going to do that bit.
Nick:So it you know, my design work is done, and I could do something new. And if it's an extension of the design work in code, context switching isn't that bad. But, you know, it is switching, but you because you do go from, like, your design tool to something more, you know, you know, code based. And then having to go back to design because you run into some sort of, you you know, app breaking bug or something or something you didn't think about. But, you know, user flow wise, that's that's tough.
Nick:So, yeah, you're you're 100% correct there. But yeah. I I mean, I think that that that's my main response to what you're saying. It Do
Tyler:you consider yourself as a UX like, could you then consider yourself as a UX engineer considering the work that you do today?
Nick:I I would say so. Yes. I Yeah. I'm fairly confident that I can design or I can I can recreate anything I can design, you know, one on one in in code using the frameworks that I know, of course? So I've, you know, I have React and Laravel as two two, like, main platforms, and then Bootstrap and Tailwind as to CSS, you know, what it looks like, a portion of it.
Nick:And I'm currently learning how to make it more interactive. You know, I've I'm lucky enough to work in one project where they are like where they tell me like, okay, Nick. I we we appreciate you doing both, and we want you to learn more. What would be the next step for you? And then I told them, like, okay.
Nick:I can make everything static. Like, I can take a Figma design, turn it into code. If you put it side by side, you don't see a difference, but it doesn't move. Like, nothing works. So I want to make it work.
Nick:So, okay, if you click a menu, you know, a drop down opens, for example. Mhmm. And so that's what I'm learning now. And, you know, that's Okay. Now that's in the tall stack.
Nick:If you talk about full stack and different things, so that's Tailwind, Alpine, Livewire, I think, and Laravel.
Tyler:Okay. So I
Nick:can do I can do the the the final l, the t, and now I'm learning the a. So I have one l left.
Tyler:Okay. Because I was curious. That's interesting. Because I was I was thought that the does the the UX engineer title mean that you you know how to because I see, like, you're you had mentioned you're kind of advancing and kind of getting at the l.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:But then at some point, does the UX engineer understand back end as well?
Nick:I'm not sure how far it's going to go because most of my work in this capacity is with people who are, you know, highly skilled back end developers who absolutely hate CSS and front end. You know? It's different for each browser, and it looks different on different size screens, your mobile tablet, whatever, everything. And they're more than happy to give that stuff away to someone who enjoys it. You know, me, I I really enjoy that, like, puzzling of of CSS.
Nick:So, you know, reason I why I'm unsure is because I don't know if they want to give away the thing they enjoy most to someone else. Mhmm.
Tyler:That makes sense. Yeah. So I guess yeah. This goes back to, like, the job title, like, UX. If we're focusing on UX engineer, you could have more or less proficiency in in the back end piece.
Tyler:It's more that you're able to I guess the core of it is that you're able to implement something you designed Mhmm. At least front end wise.
Nick:Well, it's it's really scary too, for me at least, because, you know, design is super safe. Like, it's just design. Like, it's it's you know? This is very disrespect ful for me, but it's basically a screenshot you're making or a mock up, like, when it's Figma only. Mhmm.
Nick:Then if you go and turn it into static code, you know, it's a little bit more dangerous. Like, you can do something, you know, using spaghetti code, and it it would take long to load and performance is terrible. But okay. You know, they can fix it in the pull request and review and that kind of stuff. But then if you would do back end, you know, database stuff, that's where you can really break something.
Nick:You know? And then, like me, I'm I'm learning on the go. You know? As you know, I started doing this because more and more of my leads asked me, like, can you develop it too? And I was like, no.
Nick:And then they went with someone else, so I decided to learn. So I'm learning on the job, and I feel like learning about database on the go. That's that's, that's a breaking news headline in the making. You know, database disappears or client, data is, open and on the streets, know, that kind of stuff. So I would need lots of guidance from someone with experience there to really learn about best practices and security and that kind of stuff.
Nick:So I feel like that step is is way bigger to take on your own compared to just figuring out Tailwind.
Tyler:Yeah. Because there's all the other nuances to it too. Because I remember Yeah. Like, just using git, so, like, just for, like, creating branches and and and doing your pull request. Like, sometimes that would you get into trouble because Yeah.
Tyler:People are working on on different features and different branches, and you'd have to do merges, and then you have to resolve those conflicts, which was always a headache for me. I wish I had to, like, sometimes just, like, help. I don't know I don't know what I'm doing. There's a Yeah. There's there's we touched the same component.
Tyler:I don't know which code to to take or how to merge this correctly. Yep. So there's all that nuance to it to it as well.
Nick:That that's where AI has been the most helpful for me, by the way. Oh,
Tyler:really? Okay.
Nick:Yeah. Like, you know, most people talk about speed. You know, I I I read someone I read today on LinkedIn, someone very proudly shared their their new portfolio website, and and they they were like, I didn't touch code at all. This is all Vibe designed, Vibe coded. And I was like, yeah.
Nick:I can tell because it looks it
Tyler:looks terrible. It looks Vibe y.
Nick:Yeah. It looks look yeah. So that's perfectly put it. It looks Vibe And that helps. Like, I use AI for repetitive work and, you know, speed advantage there.
Nick:But, you know, when I started working on React for a client, you know, the first thing I did, you know, it's mostly redesign work there. You know, they have an existing outdated app. I redesign it. They approve, and I put it into React code. Like, that's the workflow.
Nick:So I work on an existing file. I take the entire file and have Claude explain it to me. Like, tell me what's going on here. Like, is there anything, like, best practice or anything strange or anything custom? Like, what does it do and why?
Nick:You know, and that takes a bit more time compared to five coding it in. You know? But it's a it's a a professional client with MRR over ARR over a million, so I don't want to mess it up. And I've been learning so much because of that, you know, asking for education first approach that now when I look at a file, there's more and more bits and pieces where I'm like, oh, I see what they did there, you know, because Claude told me before. And I used the same with every bit of feedback that I get.
Nick:So I put in a PR, and then they will review it. And I got comments like, hey. You did this over here, but you should should have done this and that, and how about this? You know? And then I ask again, Claude, like, what do you think about this feedback?
Nick:Explain to me why they would say this, and that's been super helpful to learn. Yeah. So that that's one of the two big AI use cases for me to to learn and and to assist me in in becoming more of a UX engineer.
Tyler:Yeah. That seems like the major unlock, the fact that you can paste in code and have it explain something to you. Like, I wish we had this years ago. Yeah. I remember when I Yeah.
Tyler:I I had applied to a company, and they required, it was a web designer position, and they required CSS three, which I had no experience with. I was like, ah. I was like, darn it. White lie. A little a little white lie.
Tyler:Yeah. Sure. I know how to do it. I need
Nick:to CSS three. Oh, yeah.
Tyler:That's that's what I do all
Nick:the time.
Tyler:And then I had I got the job, and then I spent it was two weeks to start, so I spent two weeks learning CSS three, which, I mean, to be fair, isn't the hardest thing, but it's still a new concept to learn. Yeah. But I Did you get away with it?
Nick:Yes. I like to do it. Oh, nice. Yeah. I did.
Tyler:Well, because I took the, like, the time to kind of learn it. And then also when I was there, I was also collaborating with other developers, so I asked them questions. So Mhmm. Yeah. Like, any anything on on the job learning is great because you have you're not starting from scratch.
Tyler:You have, like, their existing code, so you see how their current CSS or c s CSS three was kind of styled. So I use that as reference.
Nick:So Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I mean, that's very helpful. Like, if they like, I still require a lot of help to do to de develop something new.
Nick:So I have that more experienced developer that told me to learn about the a in tall. He he I asked him if he could, you know, put together a skeleton of of all the files. So it was a dashboard that had a sidebar and had a sticky bottom bar on scroll and that kind of stuff. So he put in all the placeholders. Like, here's your sidebar file.
Nick:Here's the main file, that kind of stuff. So, you know, I couldn't have done that on my own because I don't really trust AI to, you know, be clear and specific when I ask him, like, what would be a starting point. Like, I have no clue if that's correct. But now I know from someone with tons of experience that, you know, this is the right starting spot.
Tyler:Interesting. And I'm curious where you think you're next. So once you if you if I treat you like a Pokemon, once you've once you've caught them all, where what's next after that? Yeah. How do imagine, like, your your work evolving?
Nick:Yeah. Well, that's a good that's a good question. I I don't know yet because most of my evolving Pokemon and evolving this. I I really like Pokemon, but that's because I'm 32, so I grew up with with Pokemon in the nineties. But, anyway, my my my evolving of my role mostly happened because of, you know, perception.
Nick:You know, what I like, the main reasons I didn't get a job. At some point, you'll see a pattern.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:You know? Another pattern used to be like, well, you don't have any big clients. You know? So, you know, you probably cannot handle all the politics and stakeholder management. You know?
Nick:Very annoying feedback to get, but something that's probably right. So I found the biggest client I could find that would would have me, and then that solved that bit of feedback. So I don't know. I feel like I'm still ahead of the curve, you know, being a designer plus developer, UX engineer, like, whatever you want to call it. Mhmm.
Nick:I don't see many designers do the same thing because lots of designers I talk to are very, you know, like I mentioned before, very protective of, like, no. Do design, period. It has to be the UX way, period. So that's I feel like I'm safe for quite a while, But I will always have my radar, like, floating around, like, you know, seeing, like, do I get, you know, get that do I get shot down more often? Do I lose more leads?
Nick:If so, why? Is there a pattern? And then based on that, I will evolve and learn. You know? So, yeah.
Nick:So I have no clue where I'm going to go towards. Probably more coding first.
Tyler:Okay. That's fair.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to tell. How about yourself? Because now it's a lot of UX engineer talk about my experience, but you are in house.
Nick:You know, my father has been working in an agency for well over thirty years. Like, almost his entire career has been, like, one employer. I don't feel like that's the standard anymore today. You know? Like No.
Nick:You have a do you have a a plan or a goal, you know, five years from now?
Tyler:I think it's I think I'm it's still fuzzy for me as well. Like, I have so many I had, like, interest in, like, the UX engineer. That may not be for me anymore. I'd I see myself going to more strategy to kind of Right. Loop back to our our our session last conversation.
Tyler:I feel like that's the strategic part is where I'm gonna be focusing Yeah. While leveraging AI tools that are coming up. Whatever that turns into, I don't know what job title that is, but I just think in house job titles are changing as well will be changing as well. So product designer is now the official new this is the gold standard. So you're a product designer.
Tyler:This is what you do. You you come in. You're able to to do end to end. You're able to collaborate with all the stakeholders, speak the language of engineering, speak the language of Yeah. Of product.
Tyler:But I just I just see that, like, some of these new tools just facilitating parts of the job that I don't wanna focus on. So maybe, like, to your earlier point about, like, what a product designer is, like, it's product designer with a focus in x. So, like, maybe I'm a product designer that has a focus in the strategic part. So Mhmm. I had this thought yesterday of, like it goes along the lines of, like, why designers are afraid to let go of design.
Tyler:I feel like AI might be, like, the junior designer if we hire to do the work that we don't wanna do, and it feels less of, like, someone taking something away from me. So Yeah. We can all become the art director that we've always wanted to become. I think that's whatever you call that, I think the art director in the product spaces, I think that's where I'm heading where eventually, like, managing a team, etcetera. Yes.
Tyler:Yes. But I feel like an interesting challenge is seeing how I can art direct with some of the tools that can that have the capabilities of working on my behalf.
Nick:Right. Right. Yeah. Is that direction in any way influenced by concern about job security around AI or because of AI?
Tyler:Maybe. Maybe. I think everything I do now is it goes back to when a well, it goes back to, like, one event that happened to me. I remember when a friend of mine told talked to me about Bitcoin years and years ago. He's like, oh, you should you should invest in this.
Tyler:Like, I don't know what this Bitcoin is. Let me just leave it alone. Well, three years later, he he struck it rich. So I decided that from that day forth that I would just try everything new at least once and see where that goes. So that goes along with personal brand.
Tyler:It goes along with, like, this AI stuff. Like, it's
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:It seems to be I think initially, it was a hype, but I think now it just becomes another tool. And we can probably lose the the the prefix AI. It's just like another tool, but just like we have tools that we can leverage that can we can execute. We can hyperfocus on the things that we're good at good at and then also facilitate the things that we're not super good at.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:Which I think just encompasses, like, that entrepreneurial spirit. So if you're a CEO or a solopreneur, you're you're the everything person. Yeah. And then as you wanna grow your company, then it's about delegation. And that and that's a hard jump because you're trusting someone else to do something that you can do a 100% that may only be able to do 60%.
Nick:Right.
Tyler:Right. But I think baby steps, you can leverage AI as like, okay. If this thing fails, I can yell at it via text saying, hey. What are you doing there?
Nick:Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:Well, it gets your it dips your toes into that space, Mhmm. It might be interesting.
Nick:Yeah. So in a few years' time, when we do episode number 100 to 150, I might be talking to Tyler, the product manager.
Tyler:Could be. You never know.
Nick:Mhmm. You know? Because I feel like that's the accepted seat at a table to talk strategy.
Tyler:It is. It depends if you're yeah. I think for most companies, that might be that's the route. I think you have design, you have product management. And then once you've kind of hit the director status, it's it's usually PM where, like, a designer turns into this PM role or the PM graduates into, like, the next Pokemon evolution.
Tyler:Yep. But some companies have have a good, like, design culture. So in in those types of companies, I think you can retain some kind of design variation to your title.
Nick:Yeah. True. You know, I I cannot stop looking at that lamp you have just behind you over your shoulder since you said Pokemon because it looks like you have a Charizard's burning tail behind you already.
Tyler:Oh, it's ready to evolve.
Nick:Yeah. I It looks like you're growing wings, but that's might be just that might be a few episodes too early. Anyway, I I'm also curious about levels of seniority. I had I had it in mind since you said you were a senior designer. Mhmm.
Nick:And then you mentioned director, and and there's a difference in how companies see seniority, know, depending from company to company. As a, you know, junior designer, I felt like I was ready to jump to a senior position, then I went to a new company. And then they offered me a job, and they called me a junior designer. And I was very annoyed. Like, my little my little ego had a big bruise on it.
Nick:You know? And this is, like, 2018 or 2019 or something. So recently, I removed all the the senior prefix labels from, you know, like, what I am today, I think. I might be still on LinkedIn, but I well, I'd let let's let's be safe here and say I started removing senior from what I am. Mostly, again, you know, SEO proofness and catching more fish or catching more Pokemon to you know, I don't want to exclude a company where they do not have senior as a thing because I've also worked in companies where everyone's just a UX designer.
Nick:Like, no senior, no junior. You are a UX designer or a design lead. And And a design lead, the only difference compared to a designer is that you are managing a group of designers. Mhmm. You know?
Nick:Yeah. So I I I started removing that. Curious what you think there, but also at the same time, you know, being realistic in how these levels exist. If you have any goal or stopping point perhaps where you feel like, I don't want to go beyond this type of seniority for whatever reason.
Tyler:That's interesting. I might that might be a distinction between, like, in house and freelance, though. That seems like a strategic play on your end where it's like your to your UX product design title. Yeah. I think in house, there's like, with titles comes pay and more responsibility, but, like, back to your junior, like, title, so the more levels you go up, the more your responsibility kind of expands, at least in house, at least.
Tyler:Yep. So junior, you're hyper focused on your specific area, and then you become mid level, your error grows. And as you go up, your what you affects goes beyond just the design department. So it's less about, like, your just what you do in design, and then it affects maybe product and engineering, and then it deprecs across departments when you get to, like, senior and then staff above that. So you you have staff product designer, so you affect company wide.
Tyler:And then there's principle above that, which is, like, the overlord of design. That's the I feel like that's the the last step, unless there's senior principle. But I'm I'm not up to date in all the levels.
Nick:No. Me neither. You know, the biggest one I've seen was senior vice president of design. But that feels a few years away in terms of promotion.
Tyler:Yeah. Plus those the the two tracks. Right? So if you wanna go the management route or Yeah. Or the IC route, I think that's the IC route.
Tyler:And then the management is, like, design manager, senior design manager, principal. Like, the same the same, like, previous six supply.
Nick:Yeah. Well, you need to reach a certain company size to need a a normal plus senior version of one role.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:I I have perhaps a bit of advice for people looking for for a job still when you talk about job titles. And that's that you should have a 90% ready base version of your resume, you know, where you have you know, you the the design is ready. Your name and your picture are all there. Your experience is and the about you section and your skills, all that kind of stuff, it's it's more or less finished. And all you have to change depending to go from 90 to a 100% for each applicant job application that you fill out is the label and perhaps a few keywords.
Nick:You
Tyler:know? Yep.
Nick:So I I had a a resume for UX design for UX research and one for being a designer in a Dutch government body, you know, because they had specific requirements. And I didn't make up the requirements, you know, in in a way that I, you know, that I could have a white light to to say, like, I I have them, But they had certain way of labeling them that they didn't really need in non government work. So I had you know, it's a bit more work in the beginning, but just being in a position of having a few resume variations ready to go, you know, except for five minutes of tweaking, I think is a great way to, you know, increase your odds of getting invited for for next round. So in today's day and age, have a product design resume, have a UX design resume, and or a variation for whatever specific label of design you want to go into.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it's so I think that's solid advice. And, like, for people who think that's lying, I don't think it is. I think it's like you we have these titles, but the titles just denote what they're asking for. Yeah.
Tyler:And we Yeah. Like, regardless of, like, what they're asking for, I think most designers can fit the belt.
Nick:Yeah. For for sure. Yeah. It's it's not meant at all to be to be deceiving or lying. You know?
Nick:It's just if you, you know, if you've been in design for five years and you've done lots of UX research work, lots of UX design work, you shouldn't make one big resume, multiple pages where you put in all of the experience that you have in in both fields. You know? It's it's good to have. So perhaps that's something to to mention as well as it shouldn't be exactly the same. You know, your the the projects you mention in your resume can differ from application to application.
Nick:Like, you know, highlight your best UX research projects for your UX resume, of course, but leave them out for your UX engineering, resume if you have one. And be very strict about it. Don't fight code it. You know? It's, it's your business card.
Nick:If I can, rant a little bit more about, resumes, but my main tip was, you know, have a specific one for a specific role and grow your collection of resumes that way. Gotta catch them all.
Tyler:Beat me to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:You know, product design, if it will stick or if it will change in a few years, but we'll probably do a new episode about it around that time.
Tyler:Yeah. And then I I see it maybe being maybe a year or two out, we'll see something perk up. It'll be a shiny new thing that we that we all chase.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Curious what what you think. You don't have to answer it now, you know, we have to leave something to the imagination and also what our listeners and viewers think. You know, that main question being, will the next will the label that will replace product design have AI in the label?
Nick:You know, AI product design, AI engineer design or anything. Yes or no, that's something to think about.
Tyler:That's a good one. Yeah. My guess if if history is a great indicator, probably yes, and then we'll remove it because it's it won't be relevant.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I think we will skip that in between step and go directly towards the step that you just mentioned, like, together.
Nick:We'll we'll go directly to the and then we remove it step.
Tyler:Yeah. Probably. Yeah. I think we've we've we've unless unless vibe designer is a is a a title, yeah, I think you're probably right. I probably skipped the prefix.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. You know, I I really enjoy these talks, but talking so much outlet about labels makes me a little bit tired.
Tyler:Fair enough. Fair enough.
Nick:Yeah. I I think I think we as a as a design community, we have a bit of a identity crisis. You know?
Tyler:I think we need to
Nick:stick with one label, call ourselves that thing, and make sure the world understands what it is. And with that being said, I think product design is way more clear than UX design. You design a product versus you design the user's experience. I think that's a step into the right direction.
Tyler:I'm with you.
Nick:Yeah. Well, that's good to hear. So what's up for what's up on our menu for next time?
Tyler:I think I think we talked about it evolving. Well, it started with how many clicks is too many clicks, but I think we're going to evolve it into design myths that we are Oh, yeah. Attempting gonna be attempting to bust in our next episode.
Nick:Yeah. That's a good that's a good one. You know, the the things we believe that is secretly holding us back, but also the myths non designers believe about us, where we are like, no. No. No.
Nick:No. That's not true. You know? So it goes both ways. It's educational for us, but it's also, you know, perhaps something that can help us be better understood by our stakeholders or friends at parties.
Nick:Ah, yes.
Tyler:Friends at parties. That's that's always a harder one.
Nick:Yeah. So what do you do? Well, I'm a UX designer. Oh, dang. Now I have to explain it.
Nick:Explain.
Tyler:Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:But that's that's something for next time. Yeah. Thanks for listening.
Tyler:Chat. Yeah. Time.
Nick:See you the next time. That
Tyler:was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.