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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Today, our guest is Justin from the Polyvagal Podcast. Welcome.
Speaker 1:Morning.
Speaker 2:Good morning. Thank you for talking to me.
Speaker 1:You're very welcome.
Speaker 2:I'm super excited about your podcast. I actually just presented about Polyvagal Theory at a conference last weekend, and so many people were already listening to your podcast and knew about it.
Speaker 1:Oh, really? That's so cool.
Speaker 2:It's exciting. It's exciting. So go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit, and then we can chat about it.
Speaker 1:Okay. My name is Justin Sonseri. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of California. I'm currently working with in a public school system, so I work with mostly teenagers. I've been a therapist for, I think, eleven years now, and all of my experience has been with teens.
Speaker 1:I've worked with a lot of younger kids as well. I've done a lot of family therapy, play therapy, sanctuary, substance abuse counseling, that kind of stuff. Yeah, so in many different sort of, like I've worked in outpatient, I've worked in drug rehab, I've worked in group homes, and now in the public school system.
Speaker 2:That's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love working with kids. I I didn't when I was in school, I might I always had the private practice thing in my head. But when I once I got going, I realized that working with kids and families and and with parents is tons of fun. That's can do in private practice, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:I've I've enjoyed I I've I've gotten such a wide array of experience in different settings and also different cities, that it's I've been very, very fulfilling.
Speaker 2:That's great. That's great. Where did you first hear about Polyvagal?
Speaker 1:Last summer so, again, I work in the school district, so I don't get summers off exactly. I I still meet with kids during the summer and do some stuff. I I do have more time during the summer to do, like, research and and do program development and stuff. So last summer, I didn't feel super satisfied with my level of understanding trauma, and I thought I was, know, was a good therapist and all that. I felt confident, but I felt like there was a gap in my understanding and my ability to help people, especially ones that are more, like, shut down and more, dissociative.
Speaker 1:And that's when I started doing research on trauma, and just through, like, YouTube videos and and, you know, reading articles and whatnot, but I stumbled upon Peter Levine. Are you familiar with him at all?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And somatic experiencing, and that absolutely just blew me out of the water to see someone who could work with trauma in a much different way. So that just got me really interested about the body and how trauma stays in the body. And then that connected me just through, you know, continuing to research to, Doctor. Porges. And I saw a couple of his lectures and, was again just like blown out of the water that he was able to articulate and really bring this new understanding of how trauma works.
Speaker 1:And it's I mean, the mechanics of it seem pretty straightforward, and so that really revolutionized the way that I work with the kids that I work with, and, especially with kids that are more dissociative and have heavy trauma. And I noticed that when I started implementing these things into my work over the past year or so, that there was a significant difference in how kids were presenting to me and opening up to me, and especially in their level of safety. And I think kids always felt safe with me, but now that I was more aware of it and really focusing on the safety cues that I was giving, I was seeing a difference in how I don't think how rapidly is a good way to measure progress or whatever, but they were divulging trauma a lot more quicker quickly. You know? And that really kinda struck me as, like, well, I'm I'm doing something different here.
Speaker 1:I think they're feeling safer, and now I'm kinda getting more information out of them, and I'm feeling healing quicker as well.
Speaker 2:Wow. I worked for many years as a outpatient or home based counseling and seeing adolescents in schools and in the community. Were you surprised how much not just how much trauma was out there, but how many of them really were shut down and dissociative?
Speaker 1:Once I recognized what was happening, yes. And I knew that I was meeting with kids that were dissociating. I knew with I was meeting with kids that had heavy trauma histories. Like, I knew that. But after understanding the polyvagal theory, and especially, doctor Portis, but Deb Dana does some really good things about polyvagal theory and therapy, and then Peter Levine being able to track, you know, where trauma stays in the body and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:So once I was able to track that in session and see how the kids I was meeting with were in shutdown mode and kinda or or in flight fight or in safety mode. Once I was able to recognize that, that really kinda shook me in I don't know. It's I don't know. It's it really changed the way that I was understanding in session. Does that answer your question?
Speaker 1:I feel like I drifted off there.
Speaker 2:No. No. That was good. What are you doing differently when you talk about giving cues for safety?
Speaker 1:So the vocal prostomy thing
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Where where you use a more well, just basically a less monotone voice. And I think that as male as a male therapist that males' voices generally have a flatter, more monotone sound to them, and so I was more aware of that and really making sure that my care for the students I was meeting with was coming through my voice, and allowing my voice to kind of go up and down, and really using every opportunity that I had to speak to use that as an intervention in and of itself. So that was one cue that I really focused on. The other one was my body posture and really, I do a lot of mirroring with my clients, but providing safe cues with my body, making sure that I'm giving them enough distance and all that. And what else?
Speaker 1:Oh, my face. So really making sure that I'm giving safe, facial cues and being aware that when things difficult things come up in session, how was my face showing? Am I going flat? Am I, you know, a lot of times I'll meet the client where they're at. Like, if they're dissociating, I feel myself going there, just as part of the empathetic sort of process.
Speaker 1:So monitoring that within myself, and then making sure that I'm connected to my safe and social engagement system, and really showing that through my face, and using my eyes, like showing eye crinkles, which is a safety cue, soft, gentle sort of gaze, rather than, you know, seeing through them or something like that. So yeah, my face, my voice, body posture, spacing, all that kind of stuff really, as I became more and more aware of it, I noticed that they were it seemed like they're I know they're feeling more safe because I see them going up the ladder within the session, and it seems more rapid, honestly. So I'm seeing them go from I see, like, students that I go from being very dissociative to the by the time that we're leaving that session, that they're making eye contact with me, and we're smiling together, and that there's a shift there, you know?
Speaker 2:That's amazing. How do you talk to them about tracking in their body?
Speaker 1:Well, I I I very simply break down the polyvagal ladder, and that is, you know, safety. And then when we don't feel safe, we drop down into flight mode. If we can't, run away from the situation, we drop down to flight mode, and if we can't fight against it, then we shut down completely, and that looks different ways. So I very simply break down those steps, and so we we kinda come to that every now and then during the session. And so they're able to recognize in their body kinda where they're at, and I really encourage them to listen to their body, and I point to, like, my my chest or my gut and really sort of visually align them with, this is you know, where are you what are feeling here?
Speaker 1:What are you feeling here? Are we feeling something somewhere else? And just those four steps of safety, flight, fight, and shutdown, just those four steps seem to be enough for them to to realize where they're at. And as the session goes along, we'll check-in with that, and they can see that they're going up the ladder, you know. And so that awareness is one thing, but once a child gets into that safety mode, I like to kinda just for a moment notice it, and there's kids that don't get safety at all, outside of my session, which is, of course, super sad.
Speaker 1:But you can see them reach that point of connect like, true connection because now they're making eye contact, and they're holding it, and you I can see them experiencing that for the first time. And it's really just sort of it's really for on my end, it's a beautiful moment just to see someone, like, kinda get there and to see, like, color come back into their face, like, their cheeks get pink. And they're making eye contact, and they're smiling, and they're really sort of there's almost like a twinkle in their eyes. It's kinda weird, but they they're really sort of experiencing the moment with me and and realizing, and I I'll bring some attention to it, that what we're feeling right now, it's this feels like safety. And then they'll say, I've never felt this before.
Speaker 1:And so now we have we have an experience that we can pull from as we move forward. You know?
Speaker 2:How do their teachers or other people around notice when these kids are improving or that's translating to other areas of their life? Or are you able to teach them, the teachers, about some of that language, or what are you seeing?
Speaker 1:I'm seeing teachers desperate for this knowledge, and I do collaborate with teachers and kinda share with them, in very simple terms where the these students are at. Like, this this student you're seeing more in flight mode, that's why we see them, these certain behaviors. It's not because they're bad or because they're, you know, bad kids or whatever, or that they're trying to avoid their work exactly, it's because they're, you know, they're down the ladder, they're in this sort of like flight mode, and to ask them to sit and learn is it's not gonna go very far. So they get that, and with very simple language, they they understand that. But the problem I'm having is that not enough teachers know this, and I'm very impatient.
Speaker 1:Right. So I'm really pushing and I've done a couple of professional development days where I can teach teachers. I've done a couple of those, and they absolutely love it, and they eat it up. But if teachers I'm noticing so far that when teachers understand where their kids are at, if they can see a child that's feeling unsafe rather than having like a mental disability or something like that, mental disorder, or mental health disorder, mean, if they can see them as being unsafe, that it brings a lot more empathy and understanding and patience. And what's really cool is, as I explain these simple concepts, the teachers can look inward and be like, Oh, I dropped down the ladder in class as well.
Speaker 1:And then they, again, like the empathy really kind of kicks in, and they change, they instantly change what they're doing once they once that awareness comes within themselves as well.
Speaker 2:So they're working through the physical aspect of even the whole shame theory stuff because they are changing the quality of connection they have.
Speaker 1:I think so. I think that they're, I think that alleviating shame is a nice little byproduct, but really what if teachers can be a safe and social person consistently, even in those difficult times, that those safety cues are what that's what's gonna help the student come back into safety, their social engagement system. But it's it's I know that when these behaviors pop up, like a meltdown in class or not sitting still, or screaming in class, or whatever, of course, have a reaction to that, and of course, teachers will drop down the ladder as well. So it's it's how it's the point here is, like, to recognize that's what's happening, but can you stay in your social engagement system and not and it's okay to drop down the ladder. Get that's happening.
Speaker 1:I'm not there's no shame there, but can you stay intact enough with your social engagement system to be that safe person for the student in that moment?
Speaker 2:That that seems like it's not just because we're talking about safety, that's not just healing, but it's also preventative.
Speaker 1:Oh, hugely. Yeah. The benefit of this is, and this is, I think, kind of where my hope has shifted within the school system, is that we wait, sadly, we wait for problems to occur, and then we address it. And that's not preventative. That's reactionary.
Speaker 1:And really, what we want to what my goal is to implement these ideas into the classroom before there's a problem, because like I've talked to teachers where I say, like, even if we get these kids into like a safe and social mode, like even if we address it with this one kid, next year there's gonna be another kid. So it's not about the one kid or the two kids or whatever, it's about the classroom structure. It's about the school climate. I want to prevent these things from popping up in the first place, so we can't really wait for the problem. We really have to be very proactive about these things, and I haven't gotten that message out as far as I'd like it to yet, but I think it'll be happening more next year as I continue to do these plan development, or these professional development days.
Speaker 1:But there was a principal I talked to, and as we were talking about this ladder stuff, he recognized in himself like, oh, when I interact with the kids, I'm down the ladder, and I'm not giving those safe social cues. My face goes pretty flat, my voice goes monotone. So he realized that, and then he took it upon himself, and he said, I should probably start providing more safe and social cues, and I should probably start connecting with these students more often and really make it an effort to connect with them. So that's kind of where I'm at. That's my goal, and once teachers and principals hear this, it instantly clicks.
Speaker 1:They get it. So it's just a matter, and I'm lucky that I'm able to take these really complex ideas from actually, the pretty simple ideas from Doctor. Porges, but the language is pretty complex, And then to translate that into language that's pretty easily understandable by darn near anybody as far as I'm I'm finding so far.
Speaker 2:How have you done that with the podcast? How did you how did you start translating these this neuroscience and these concepts into simple language that's been so effective on the podcast?
Speaker 1:That actually, I've had some help with that. So I I understand I'm I'm able to understand the concepts, and then what what I was doing was for my first professional development, I I I simplified the language enough, like the word neuroception. I use that on my podcast, but rather than saying neuroception, and when I present it to teachers, I'll say body perception, which is not a % the way Doctor. Portis probably wants it, but it makes sense instantly, and if someone doesn't have to learn a new term, like body perception is pretty easily understandable right away, so that's the way my body perceives things. And it's the same concept as neuroception, so I just sort of switch it over.
Speaker 1:On the podcast, I do use neuroception, which is basically the body's detection of safety and danger cues internally and externally.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So what I'll do is I just basically, like, I I simplify it as much as I possibly can, and and really kind of streamline this to to in a way that people will understand instantly, and so far, the reaction I've gotten from people is like, this is so easy to understand. I get it. Thank you so much. And so what but my actually, my my boss at work, she when I in my first presentation, showed her the outline, and she's like, you gotta you gotta really whittle this down even more. So she helped me to even streamline it further, the basic ideas, and and really forced me to to ask myself, can I actually explain these concepts very simply to anybody?
Speaker 1:So it was it was nice to have feedback from somebody, but now I feel like I'm able to do so. And right now, the podcast audience, they're getting it really easily, and it makes perfect sense to them. And when I talk about this stuff to clients, they get it instantly. It's it's so simple, and it's once you know it, I think, in your head, and then you check-in with your body, it makes sense instantly. Like, that's what I went through.
Speaker 1:I I went through these steps in that situation or those situations, And it so it instantly kicks in, like, yeah, that's I went into shutdown during those moments. And and once they get it, it instantly brings this sense of, like, normalization of, oh, that's why I did that thing. And that's actually really normal and very expected because I'm a man when I get it now. Like, I I present I talked about this with really young kids, and they get it. They get it right away, and they're able to pinpoint when I'm in class, I feel, like running away.
Speaker 1:Or when I'm at home around my sibling, I feel like fighting.
Speaker 2:It's amazing how the truth of it is so not just understood, but experienced immediately.
Speaker 1:I I agree with you. I I I you're so right that it's this instant, like, we get it in our head, but then we feel it. I think we feel it in our bodies of, like, that that's right. That that's that's right. And when we talk about this stuff, people, and I'm sure people right now that are listening, you instantly, like, you look inward.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? So when I presented this to teachers, I predicted before the training, I predicted, I said out loud to the teachers, I know when you listen to this stuff, you're gonna think about your kids first, and then you're gonna start wondering about your own kids in your home or your family members, and then you're gonna apply this to yourself. Because, like, you just can't help it. You you can't help it, like, as I hear these things, and it makes sense to apply it to your daily life and to your own past. You just it just you just go there.
Speaker 1:My hope is that it it's on my podcast, my my hope and my goal is to present this in a very safe way. I don't want anyone listening to the podcast to be triggered into any sort of self harming or severe dissociation or whatever. And, of course, I don't have control over that, but but what I do have control over is the way that I present things. And my my old my my huge, huge goal is to present things in ways that are easily understandable and very safe to hear, but I do know that people are gonna apply this stuff themselves. But, yeah, I think it's possible to to to present this stuff in a way that's easy to understand, but also very safe.
Speaker 1:And I I'll use like, I use music during my podcast, every now and then. I'll do, like, an intro music. I'm sorry. I do I always have my intro music, but I'll do, like, a music, like, sample.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:We kinda break yeah. We kinda, like, break down how we feel during it. I've I've incorporated these chimes into my podcast just to sort of recenter and give people a chance to breathe before we go into the main topic. So things like that, just these audio sort of cues that are safe and give people a chance to sort of mentally breathe. You know?
Speaker 2:How did you get from your research last summer to a podcast this year?
Speaker 1:I when I research things, don't take it lightly. I'm pretty obsessive, and it was almost all consuming. Luckily, have good boundaries, and I know when it's family time, and I know when it's work time, but luckily with my work, I'm able to do research, and I'm able to learn. There's some that's okay, because I'm a therapist, and I work in the school system, so my boss encourages us to continue our development. So I'm able to learn at work, which is good, but this carried over into, like, I'd be awake from, I don't know, 09:00 to midnight studying, and learning and as I'm I like I like to draw a lot.
Speaker 1:As I'm drawing, I'm listening to lectures by doctor Porges. So it got to a point where I was really like, I got it, and I was reading books and, articles, anything I could find. I was just sort of consuming it, and I got it. Like, I I got it well enough to where I thought, you know, I can translate this and talk about it. And I did that at work with a couple of presentations to staff, and then I was like, know, I I really can do this, and people got it right away.
Speaker 1:They loved it, and that was the feedback that I was getting from people was that this was so helpful and instantly made sense, and a couple of staff people said, Where can I go for help? Like, they realized I need some therapy. I need to talk to someone, and where can I go for that? So it had such an instant and beneficial impact that I can't just sit on this and, keep it to myself. And I know a lot of people are talking about this stuff, but I feel like I can do it in a pretty unique way, and I think I bring a unique perspective with working in the school system, and having lots of experience working with kids and parents and families.
Speaker 1:So it's I just felt like it's not something I can sit on, and that I have to. I almost kinda felt compelled, like I just have to start talking about this out loud, because I think it can be super beneficial to so many people right away. So I just if I just sat on this without doing about it, I would feel really antsy. I wouldn't feel I wouldn't feel right. I'd feel like I'm missing out on a part of, like, who I am, which is to talk about things and sort of help.
Speaker 1:You know? I I just have this impulse within me to sort of help.
Speaker 2:How did why why a podcast? Why that? Did you like, were you already a fan of podcasts? Have you done other podcasts? Or why did why did the podcast specifically?
Speaker 1:I thought that audio would be the best way to go because it allows enough these aren't these are ideas that we can give simply and quickly, but it allows enough time to really break down ideas, and to really go in-depth into them. So I you know, a blog is fine, but there's something about like and hearing a voice, I think, it can be a safe experience, and that's some of the feedback that I've gotten from people is that somehow hearing my voice is kind of soothing. One of my listeners, she says that she does, she listens to my podcast on Sunday nights during her, meal prep time for the week, And she told me, like, Hearing your voice during those Sunday nights where I'm usually pretty anxious and prepping my meals, something about it's kinda soothing. So I think there's a benefit, like I and I think that I do better with saying things out loud. I've tried, I've attempted blogging in the past, and I'm not it just didn't feel right, and I could do a YouTube video thing, but the amount of editing time and whatnot is I don't know if I have the patience for it, And, so I thought podcasting is straightforward enough, and it gives me enough time to really go really deep into ideas.
Speaker 1:And, you know, as as far as my life goes, it's streamlined. I record it, do a little bit of editing, and I upload it. So it's streamlined. It fits into my life my lifestyle pretty darn well. I have done some blogging.
Speaker 1:I have a few posts on my website, and I don't and I wanna keep doing it. Basically, what I'll do is people ask me a question, and I'll use that on the blog anonymously, and I'll edit the heck out of the question too. But, so I have some blog stuff going, but just talking out loud seems to be more of a natural fit for me. And I do a lot of outlining, but I like to talk out loud. I've been doing parenting presentations my entire therapy career for the past eleven years, and I have so much fun doing those.
Speaker 1:And it's honestly, I really prefer talking out loud with people and getting those reactions and seeing those light bulbs go off. I love that experience. So doing the podcast is like, I get at least get half the experience where I'm talking out loud, but really I wanna transition into doing, speaking engagements, because I love the interaction. I love seeing those light bulbs go off and experiencing that in the moment.
Speaker 2:Have you been surprised how well the podcast has taken off so Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, I am. I am, am constantly surprised. I check my stats throughout the day just because I'm so curious, and it feels good. It's it's kinda rewarding to see that the amount of listens are going up daily. So, yeah, absolutely blown away.
Speaker 1:One of the big boosts that happened recently was on Instagram. I believe her name is the holistic psychologist, the dot holistic dot psychologist, I believe that's her name, or her handle. She basically just shared something in her stories that I had posted, and in one day I had gotten like 800 new followers, which is huge, and I'm sure a good chunk of those people gave the podcast a try. So but yeah, I'm absolutely blown away that people are attracted to this, that like, they've heard of the Polyvagal Theory, and so what they're doing is they're looking up the Polyvagal Theory, and they're finding my podcast, because it's not it's pretty darn niche. Like, no one else is doing that as far as I So the the way that people are finding it is surprising to me, and how many people are attracted to it.
Speaker 1:I knew I know the information's good, and I I know it's helpful, I think it's very healing, but I am surprised it's taken off as quickly as this much. I'm I'm, like, I'm only a couple months into it, and I have a pretty deep, listener base and people who are DMing and emailing me saying how beneficial it is. So, I'm pleasantly pleasantly surprised and extremely humble, like like, wow, I really have to make sure I'm taking it very of course, a lot of taking it very seriously, taking a lot of responsibility over it, because I I I know that people listening to it that are desperate for help, and so I I really put it upon myself to treat that with a lot of love and respect, you know. Keep saying you know as a way to end this sentence.
Speaker 2:That's okay. The I think that it speaks to how well you're doing it, and how connected you are to your audience, which sort of emphasizes the topic you're talking about, because people keep listening. But I also think it speaks to how badly people need to know about this and how important what a breakthrough it is to understand this. People are hungry for it in the first place.
Speaker 1:They really are, and I think that people are hungry for normalization, to feel normal, and to feel like they're not different. And I think it's sad because I think that in my profession that we don't do a super great job of that, and that therapists rely on things like saying, that people have a chemical imbalance or that they are have some sort of hereditary problem, and I can't prove or disprove that, but I don't see it as super healing. So to tell people about their autonomic nervous system, which seems odd, but that, you know, we shift to these different states based on safety and danger, that is instantly. Like, I'm just I'm always blown away about how instantly people get that, and right away it brings a sense of like, and I hear it from the clients that I meet with, and I hear it from I'm seeing it from people that listen, that like, Oh, that makes sense. That I get.
Speaker 1:Rather than leaving a therapy appointment with them being told that they have some sort of chemical imbalance, which doesn't really I don't know how helpful that is, whether it's true or not, I don't know how helpful that is, you know? But hearing that you're normal seems to help, and then being able to explain to someone, This is I can prove you're normal. This is what you this is what our bodies go through, and for them to be able like, yeah, that's it. That's what I went through. That's it right there.
Speaker 1:And then to say, yeah, that's what you're supposed to That's how you're supposed to handle these situations. You were in an experience where you thought your body felt like your body was under life threat, so you shut down. You're supposed to do that. And that right away is like, oh. It doesn't fix everything, it doesn't heal everything, but it definitely starts the process, I think.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's so powerful.
Speaker 1:It is, yeah, it's hugely powerful. But it's so simple too.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And when you hear it, like your body knows it, it's like, yeah, that's what I went through. Your body knows.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes. Yes. What would you tell someone who is a listener, just mostly adults on this podcast, what would you tell someone who didn't know anything about polyvagal that is specific for someone who is often dissociating or needing to be more grounded or more connected to their body?
Speaker 1:I would I would really encourage them to just learn the fundamentals. Is is it okay if we go through the fundamentals real quick?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You I will be putting links to your podcast, of course, up.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2:But definitely give us a rundown.
Speaker 1:It's it's so and so in the podcast, I go way in-depth into these ideas in a very safe way.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But the the fundamentals are that we, as mammals, not because we're human, but just as mammals, like we share this trait with like dogs and I think dolphins, I think dolphins are mammals, right? Dolphins and dogs and don't know, primate or other primates. So it's not just because we're human, but mammals, we have this thing called our social engagement system, and when we're in our social engagement system, we're able to do things like smile with each other and use vocal prosody, which is our voice going up and down, just like mine right now. Like when you ask a question, end the question like, Do you know what I mean? Like, voice goes up at the end of the question, like that's vocal prosody, we're using our up and down ability, and that's a cue of safety.
Speaker 1:So there's all these things that we do in our social engagement system, unlike eye contact, and eye crinkles, and like I said, smiles. So that's our social engagement system, and when we sense, when our body perceives danger, which is called neuroception, when our body detects danger, we shift down a dead band and calls it the polyvagal ladder. We shift down into flight mode, which is basically our engine starts going and we want to run away. That's the basic idea. And when we can't run away from certain situations that are dangerous, we shift down into fight mode, which is we want to fight, but we have no other option but to fight back.
Speaker 1:But in many situations where we're overpowered, or we perceive the person in the room has more power than us, like a principal, that certain or a parent that's, you know, abusive, that we shift down into our shutdown state. Like, we can't run away and we can't fight, then we basically shut down. We perceive that or we neurocept, our body perceives or detects that we are under life threat, and so we shut down, which can look like collapsing or actual freezing or even dissociation where we leave our body, their experience of like leaving our bodies. So that's the nuts and bolts of it, that's the basics of it, and it's not like we choose to do these things. These things just happen, and we it's it's not a choice.
Speaker 1:Then that's what I love about the polypical theory is that it really because I I know a lot of survivors will have a lot of blame, self blame, a lot of shame, and they'll ask, like, why didn't I do this or that? But it's not about why didn't you? It's it's about you use your body survived. It did what it had to do to survive the situation. So for the listeners that more might be more dissociative, that's the process that you may have gone through, and it's expected.
Speaker 1:Like that's kind of how it's supposed to happen when we're under life threat, and that's how possums experience life threat as well. They just sort of shut down. And so the experience of dissociation in particular from what Doctor. Portis says is that when we're in shutdown mode, our body really shuts down. Our heartbeat goes way low, and our blood pressure goes a lot lower.
Speaker 1:Like our body is conserving its energy in preparation, it goes numb. But what happens is our blood flow to the brain drastically reduces, and that's called it's the experience of dissociation. So if you're listening and dissociation is, something you're experiencing, it's part of the shutdown response. For some reason, your body is is experiencing a life threat detection. Even doesn't have to be, like, that you can drop your kids off at school, and something might trigger that, and then your body perceives that I'm under life threat, which will be, of course, connected to the past.
Speaker 1:It's not about, am I under life threat in the moment? It's about when we survive traumas, we can easily stay stuck in those defensive states. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that's what I would say is that, of course, it's tied to the past. It seems like darn near all the time to childhood and the way we were raised, the things that we survived, and that care if we don't get healing from that, we stay stuck in these defensive states. And I'll keep it there. I don't want to go too deep into that, but that's the basic idea, And as we stay stuck in these states, these states, we like we can stay stuck and shut down in this sort of dissociative state for years and years and years and years.
Speaker 1:And, so these things will like some people will be in a situation that they feel or that their body perceives as being a life threat, and they instantly go into that shutdown state, and that's because they already kind of exist in this shutdown state. They're already kind of there. So when they perceive certain things, and it could be it could be, like, the tiniest of triggers that nobody else would ever perceive, but for them, it's a it's a significant trigger. And they'll go into that dissociative state because they're already kind of there, Then and they never came out of that and into fight mode and into flight mode and then into healing because we have to go through the whole process. We can't just jump up into heal into safe and social engagement and the safe and social system.
Speaker 1:We have to go through these the latter. We have to go from shutdown into fight mode, into flight mode, and then into, being safe and social. That doesn't mean we have to fight somebody, and that doesn't mean we have to actually run away from people. But but it's it's the it's basically when you go from shutdown into that flight fight mode, there's this sympathetic energy that kicks up like your engine starts going again, and you kind of have to release that energy before going back up into your your safety and social engagement system.
Speaker 2:Can some of that fight mode, for example, be channeled a bit? Like, the therapeutic process that itself can be so intense and difficult. Can you use some of that fight energy and sort of to climb back up into the ladder to focus on therapy and that be what you're fighting? I don't mean fighting therapy, but sort of does that make sense what I'm asking?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure. I think so. Let me let me I'll do the best I can answer, and let me know if I got it if it's helpful or not. But, yeah, absolutely. There's kids that I mean, so many of the kids I work with are ready to fight somebody, and we don't, you know, we don't put on boxing gloves and fight each other.
Speaker 1:What we do is I help them to notice how they feel and talk about it, and that seems to help. But specifically what I'll do is, when they talk about wanting to fight someone, I'll say, Tell me about it. Like, Tell me what you want to do to that person. And that doesn't make it real, it doesn't make them go out and do it, but what it does is it allows them to visualize it, and that visualization, their body kind of experiences it. And so that, and I've seen kids do that, like tell me what you want to do, like tell me, you know, what is it you want to say to your mom?
Speaker 1:And fighting doesn't mean fighting, it means being aggressive. So, you know, I want to tell my mom off, like, all right, well, let's act that out, like, tell me about it. And that in itself can help them get to the next step. I've seen that kind of help. And then they go into this sort of flight mode where they're more anxious, and you can see their legs like tapping, and then they we kind of we can do the same process with that is a lot and this is what I see a lot is when they get to that flight mode, that now we start talking about like independence and getting out of the house, and what does the future look like, and I'll say, okay, tell me about it, like tell me what your future looks like.
Speaker 1:Tell me what it looks like to move out of the house. And what we're talking about is escape, and that seems to help. And then once they do that, then I see them go into making more eye contact with me, really calming down, and being able to think more clearly. So all that's just from talking, and I will do things in session here and there, like if I know someone's in fight mode and they're really struggling with it, that I'll have them like push their hands together and really use their upper muscles. And this I'm not nearly an expert in this at all, but this is a lot of, I would recommend people looking at somatic experiencing, which is something I would love to do more of.
Speaker 1:I don't do actually, let me clear that up. I am not a somatic experiencing practitioner. I am jealous of people who are. Really good, right? It's oh my god.
Speaker 1:It seems so amazing. I think I I don't know. I'll I'll I I kinda I I'm just jealous, and I know that I I don't know. I'm not ready to go back to school and do all the I don't want more I don't want more, college debt. I just or school debt.
Speaker 1:So I have my I have my stories that keep me away from doing it. But, but there's little simple things like, you know, pushing your hands together and really flexing your chest muscles and your arm muscles that seem to help. And when kids do that, they'll say like, Oh, feel like this tingling, I feel like some sort of alleviation. Or kids that are more like flight mode, even younger ones, instead of telling them, Hey, let's like, when I pick them up and walk to our session, I don't tell them like, hey, this is how we're supposed to walk. I'll ask them like, how do you wanna walk?
Speaker 1:Do you wanna hop to our session? Do you wanna like run? I'll run with you, let's run. Or do you wanna skip or whatever, that way we're using that energy, and now we're being mindful of it, and we're choosing it, and now you're with someone, you're feeling safe, there's some social engagement involved there, or I'll ask them like, Let's walk to our session, but let's count our steps. How many steps do you take?
Speaker 1:How many steps do I take? And that, what it brings is just, it just brings us awareness of how your body's feeling and what it's doing, because what I'm seeing with people, kids and adults, are in these modes is that there's a disconnect. Like their body is, their body is in this flight mode or fight mode, but there's a disconnect between the body and the mind. The mind is somewhere else. They're, you know, they're thinking about all kinds of stuff or avoiding thinking about all kinds of stuff, and their body's just sort of doing stuff, but they're unaware of it.
Speaker 1:And this really looks like ADHD, like kids that are, you know, shaking their legs all the time, they're looking all around, their body's doing stuff. They have this energy, but they're not mentally connected to their body, so the energy's not it doesn't seem to actually be being discharged. Like the energy is still there, but once we can bring an awareness to how they feel and where they're storing the energy in their body, that seems to help release some of it, and of course, bringing safe and social cues to the session, and being able to like that's that seems to be more healing to combine, some sort of physical outlet, or at least an awareness of what our body is going through and imagining an outlet. That seems to help as well.
Speaker 2:Well, and it sounds like you're not just attuning with them, like you're providing them attunement as well, but you're also teaching them how to sort of attune with themselves.
Speaker 1:You have to. Yeah. You really have to, and there's yeah, you just you have to, and sometimes it's just like, for kids that are hugely dissociative, we can still bring some level of attunement to that in recognizing, yeah, I'm not in my body, and I'll say things like, Where are you at? Are you floating above your head? And they'll be like, Yeah, I'm there.
Speaker 1:So like right away, now we're we're some there's some sort of sync happening, and I allow myself in session to kind of feel a little bit of what they're feeling. I'm pretty good with being empathetic, and when I feel dissociative, I know that they're going through those well, but the difference is that I'm able to stay attached to my safe and social engagement system, so I'm good, like I'm fine, and I can tolerate that easily. But I know that they aren't, and they're a lot they're probably I know they're a lot deeper in that dissociation, but sometimes I'll ask them, Well, how much are you in your body versus not in your body? And they can say, like, I'm 10%, I'm 50% in my body, I'm 75% in my body. And that brings an awareness, which is something, and then as I continue to provide safe and social cues, I'll check-in with them, How much are in your body now?
Speaker 1:And it goes up, and it goes up, and it goes up, as I'm just providing safe and social cues, and bringing genuine curiosity, and you know, listening to them, and all the therapeutic kind of stuff, you know? Oh, I did it again, I said, you know.
Speaker 2:Yes. I love it. I love it. It's a good example of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so them being aware of their body is, that's I think a major change that I made in how I'm doing therapy is even if I'm, like I'm not a somatic experiencing therapist, I'm not gonna pretend to be one, I wanna be one, but I can at least bring, help them bring an awareness of how are you feeling right now in the moment, and throughout the session I always ask, how are doing right now? And I'll I don't interrupt them, but I'll I'll just pause. Like, let's check-in with ourselves right now. How are doing?
Speaker 1:Because that's different than how did I feel in the past. And to bring, like, you know, an awareness of the past versus the present seems to be healing as well, and we can track in the moment, like, I'm getting better. Talk about this stuff is helping me get better, or is it helping is it making it worse? Do we have to slow down? Should we take a break?
Speaker 1:Do we need water? You know, and sort of pacing ourselves, and I don't like I know that talking about stuff makes things worse in the moment. I'm meant to make it worse, but the experience of it is difficult in the moment. And some level of that is okay, but I don't want my clients to go further than they're able to, and one of the things that I talk about in my podcast is called the bagel break, which is basically our ability to be resilient and tolerate going down the ladder, but then coming right back up. And we really have to build our bagel break or our resiliency before we push further into some trauma memories and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:So I have to be they well, the clients and I have to be really attuned to how we're doing right now as we talk about stuff, and where do we need to slow down? Do we need to take a break, or is that enough for today? And that brings, I think, big awareness, like not only an awareness, but an ownership, and I think resiliency. Like over time, they're able to tolerate more and more, and they'll disclose more and more of their story. Not the stories, but of what happened to them.
Speaker 1:I don't want to call them stories.
Speaker 2:How do they develop their vagal break?
Speaker 1:Well, that's huge question. It's a good one, though. In session, we developed the vagal break by, on my end, by providing safe and social cues, and then working their way up the ladder, which is going to build the resiliency. And once they get to the safety state, to have like that's our now we know what it looks like, now we know what it feels like, now we know what the experience of being safe is, and then as they drop down the ladder, now we can compare that to the Safe and Social system. So developing the bagel break is really is exercising going up and down the ladder in a safe way.
Speaker 1:So the kids do this, like our kids in our home, as we play with them, it develops their bagel break, because as we play, and so it's so important that parents play with their kids. As we play with them, they're exercising, being in a safe and social state with us, like smiling and laughing and, you know, being tickled and all that, but then also dropping down the ladder in a safe way. So like when we play tag, they're being mobilized, they're running around, they're using some sympathetic energy, but they're in a safe and social state. So they're learning to tolerate being in a sympathetic state, which is the flight mode, just like playing tag. I know it sounds silly, but that's really what it is.
Speaker 1:And so they're learning to go from I'm mobilized, but I can be safe at the same time. And kids that come from homes where they're not getting safe attachment or safe play, when they're mobilized, they don't know how to tolerate that. So these kids that are like, they go out to like their recess or their lunch period, and they're mobilized, they're moving around, but they don't know how to tolerate that and be interactive with other people. So their bagel break is not strong enough because they haven't gotten those safe and social cues at home to be able to tolerate things like being mobilized with play, or how to handle a tantrum, like kids that go into a tantrum are down the ladder, and they're not born being able to self regulate. As parents, we have to help them.
Speaker 1:It's called co regulation, it's huge. We have to bring them safe and social cues to help them come out of a tantrum, back up the ladder, and that, doing that process, helps to build the bagel break. It helps to build their resiliency in handling distress, in handling going down the ladder. So if you have a strong enough vagal break, things throughout the day that are pretty minute, like the example I like to use is getting the wrong item at Starbucks or something like that, those little moments that aren't a big deal for someone who has a good, strong enough bagel break, they can handle that and be like, Oh, you got it wrong, do you mind switching it out? And it's not a big deal.
Speaker 1:But for people who don't have a strong enough bagel break, those little moments become big moments and they flip out,
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And they, you know, they tell off the worker or whatever because their bagel break isn't, at least in that moment, is not strong enough to handle that mild distress. So the way we build our bagel break is by handling moments of distress, especially I think in early childhood, but it can develop as we get older as well, is handling moments of mild distress and realizing that we can access our safe and social system, but the bagel break is only as strong as it's developed, I think through childhood and with safe and social people. But of course, with therapy, as people get older, it's not like it's lost. You can totally develop that, but early childhood is so, so important in developing the strength of our bagel break. And really, the vagal break is not I want to make sure people understand, the vagal break is not a separate thing in our bodies.
Speaker 1:So what I how I understand the vagal break is the safe and social system, the top of the polyvagal ladder, that is the vagal break. So the strength of our safe and social system actually will inhibit, it'll keep down our sympathetic feel like I'm getting too wordy here but basically, our safe and social system keeps our defensive states, like flight, fight, and shutdown, it keeps those at bay. Like, it keeps those down. Like, we don't drop down into those states when we have a strong enough safe and social system. So that is the vagal break.
Speaker 1:That make sense?
Speaker 2:Yes. That's lovely. And it sounds like for survivors who missed out on those childhood experiences or had other experiences that interfered with those, then the therapeutic process itself, the experience of therapy, when once you find a good therapist that's connected and attuned and all of that Yeah. Then part of what helps is the process itself, almost in an exposure kind of way of that I am safe. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I can talk about these things, but I'm still safe at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a really good way of putting it, is that there, yeah, there is some yeah, I mean, therapy is there's some level of exposure there, even, you know, thinking about whatever happened that you survived or talking about it. Yeah, there's some level of exposure there, so you are dropping down the ladder if you're not there already, but you're also hopefully connecting with someone who is actually listening, actually understanding, and giving those safe and social cues. So those safe and social cues and that connection with that person, that's what's gonna help you either come out of those defensive states or to drop down into them as you share your story and then come right back up.
Speaker 2:It reminds me of the way the whole nervous system works itself in that loop because even the exposure to it in therapy of experiencing safety, at the same time you're practicing that. There's sort of a double feedback going on.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. I'm gonna ask you to repeat that. I'm I'm gonna say I wanna check-in with you and see if you're okay. For some reason, I feel like I just this urge to check-in and make sure you're okay because I know this is pretty sensitive stuff. So I I don't know.
Speaker 1:I I just wanna see if you're doing okay.
Speaker 2:Me? Yeah. Yes. I'm good.
Speaker 1:Is that okay? Like, I just I don't know. I've I just felt this urge to be like, are are you doing okay? Maybe that's my own stuff coming up. But are are you doing okay?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Alright. Cool. Do you mind repeating that question? Because I totally lost track there and I went somewhere else. I honestly, I I may have dissociated there a little bit.
Speaker 2:That's okay.
Speaker 1:But I'm back. I'm good.
Speaker 2:I was saying it reminds me of the vagal nerve itself and sort of how this nervous system works, in that the same time you're being and experiencing that, you're also practicing it, and there's sort of a double feedback going Yeah,
Speaker 1:that's exactly what's happening, is that, yeah, as we're talking about stuff, as we're talking about stuff, yeah, we drop, we do, we drop down the ladder, which is we activate, so the vagal nerve, it's a nerve, but it has different, like, systems attached to it. So the nerve goes from the bottom of your brain all the way down to your gut. But along the path of this nerve, it connects to your safe and social system, which which is from your heart to your brain to your face. And then it connects to your flight fight system, which is your limbs, like your legs and your arms. And then it connects to, your shutdown system, which is in your gut, and that just shuts everything down.
Speaker 1:So as we're in therapy, yeah, you're activating these different systems in therapy in the moment. You're going down into these different systems, does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you're literally activating these different states, these different defensive states in therapy. But hopefully, again, like hopefully you're with that person that is able to give you those safe and social cues to help you come back up the ladder, and I think what happens is in therapy that we really don't want to rush these things, I don't think at all, and if we let people talk about what they're ready to talk about, and they go down the ladder, or actually really kind of come up the ladder, I think, little by little by little. A long especially for people who are more shut down dissociative, it's it can be a very long process. It's a very gentle process. We have to really take our time, because if as a therapist, we're rushing people, that pressure is a danger cue.
Speaker 1:So we're actually keeping people in those defensive states of being flight, fight, or even shut down. So we really have to kinda take our time, and I just sort of trust that my client knows what's best for them and what they're ready for. And as long as I'm providing a safe long as I'm providing a safe avenue, or as long as I'm being a safe person, that their nervous system, they will get to where they need to be, and I just sort of trust that. And of course, I do my end of things, and if I see they're stuck, I'll try and do, you know, some awareness kind of things, or maybe we have to we have to, like, get up and move a little bit. So on my end, I'm I'm pretty darn active as well, but, yeah, we I really have to trust that they know how much they can handle in the moment, and and checking in with them in the moment, how are we doing?
Speaker 1:Just like it just like it did with you, honestly. I think it was more for myself. But just checking in, how are we doing right now? And that helps to bring a level of safety as I am in the moment. I'm not back then.
Speaker 1:I am here. I am with Justin. I I am with a safe person. And so, yeah, we're activating these different states of the vagus nerve. We're hitting on those.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Either coming up or coming down them. It's interesting that with the vagus nerve that it's if you heard that it's actually, it's a higher, it's really interesting, a hierarchy that our safe and social system is at the top, and that the flight fight response, which comes next, is below that on the nerve, and then below that is the shutdown system. So it really evolved in this sort of, bottom up approach. Like, it's a product of evolution.
Speaker 2:What is there anything else that a therapist who's just now learning about polyvagal theory needs to know?
Speaker 1:As honestly, the answer is as much as possible. I I think that yeah. That that's really as much as possible because, like, I've given the basic I mean, the fundamental basics, which is a lot, I think. But as I learn about this stuff more and, yeah, as I continue to learn about this stuff, it adds, like, a new wrinkle to what I'm learning. Like, I feel more light bulbs going off.
Speaker 1:So the it's it's not just like a one time thing. It's not just I don't think it's just you listen to podcast and you're good to go. I think it's like, I'm constantly constantly still. But right before you and I talked, was reading an article, with with Steven Portage. Like, I just it's not I don't think it's a one time thing.
Speaker 1:It's we have to keep learning about it. I think my podcast is a pretty good way to continue to get some sort of education in it, but I look at I'm secondary. Like, I doctor Porges is he's the primary sourcer, so really look up him, and he's understandable, he's very academic, and his book, Polyvagal Theory, is extremely academic. I couldn't even finish it. I got 50 pages into it, and I'm like, I'm out, I'm done.
Speaker 1:I do, promise I'm gonna come back and finish that book, was a huge goal of mine. But he has like, his lectures are more digestible. He's got some articles, he does interview, lots of interviews, he's fairly pretty giving with his time, he's awesome, that are more, you know, but I would really recommend therapists, and not just therapists, but like I'm hearing from like, you know, massage therapists, occupational therapists, all kinds of people who are in helping professions, teachers, and like if you you get this, it's understandable, great, but I would really encourage you to to keep working, and also to like, work, know, for yourself as well. It's not enough to learn about what our clients are going through, that we have to be aware of where we're at, and I'll use the example of, you know, when I was talking with you right now, that I went somewhere else. Like I went somewhere else, but my bagel break is strong enough to be like, do I go?
Speaker 1:Let's come on back over here. And daydreaming is kind of an aspect of that, but I kind of went somewhere else for a moment, and if I wasn't aware of this stuff, if I wasn't aware of what was happening to me in the moment, and that I was really kind of in some sort of mild dissociative state for a moment there, then I could have easily gotten lost into that. So therapy and I know therapists are extremely empathetic, and we feel what our clients are feeling, hopefully. And if we don't keep that in check, if we don't stay attached to our safe and social system, we can easily get lost into that stuff. And what happens is, when we get lost in that stuff, now we start to provide danger cues.
Speaker 1:Our face goes flat, our, the color from our face gets lost, our body posture changes. So if you heard this stuff and you get it, cool, awesome, that's a great first step, but keep learning about it. And this for me, this is now pretty much it is. Like, it's a practice of learning and learning and learning, and really being aware of myself and how I feel throughout the day now, and I know that when I go to my kids like gym class, that is the that place is I'm on like overload over there because there's so many cues of danger. Right.
Speaker 1:Like there's just the music, and there's people crossing in front of me. I have like proximity issues. I'm a pretty big person, so I have these proximity issues. I have lots of sound, and that gym class is like so overwhelming that I know that when I'm there, I drop down the ladder, and I want to get the heck out of there, I want to run away. So I'm aware of that, which helps me to regulate my breathing, I can be more aware of it, I can, make eye purposely make eye contact with like my wife who comes like we're there together, or I'll look at my kids and smile.
Speaker 1:That helps me kind of come back up the ladder, and remind my nervous system that I'm safe. So you know, learning about it's great, but we have to really be aware of ourselves in and out of session to make sure that we're providing those safe and social cues for our clients. And if you can't do that, like that's, to me that's the fundamentals of therapy, being a safe person. That's really like, if that's where it starts, that's where therapy starts.
Speaker 2:Wow, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:You're welcome.
Speaker 2:What go ahead and tell us your website and podcast where people can learn more.
Speaker 1:The website is justinlmft.com. The podcast is called Polyvagal Podcast. I'm on Twitter and Instagram. The handle is JustinLMFT. Yeah, that's the best places to reach me.
Speaker 1:I don't have a LinkedIn. I don't like Facebook. I don't use Facebook. But those are the best places. I'm very responsive to DMs or emails.
Speaker 1:I'm not overloaded so much that I can't respond to people, so feel free to reach out. The Polyvagal Podcast, again, is very safe. I do go into more depth into these concepts, but I do so in a very safe way. There's no sharing of, like, stories, because I know people are gonna go there anyways, so I don't share any, no client, obviously no client stuff, but I don't share any, you know, trauma stories. That's just not a part of it, and I don't think it needs to be, because I think people, I know people will go there anyways, and I warn people ahead of time if I feel like it's a safe episode or not, and I'll kind of give, like, I feel like it's pretty safe, but I don't know where you're at, so I can't predict that for you.
Speaker 1:But for the most part, every episode has been, I think, very, very safe and easy to understand.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. Thank you for all that you're doing.
Speaker 1:You're so welcome, and people are really grateful, and everyone, like, you're so welcome, but I get so much out of this that it's I just can't not at this point. I just have to, and it's so fulfilling on my end to know that some people are being helped by it, you know? So I'm getting so much out of this, so thank you for being a listener.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. I've listened to all your episodes so far, and I appreciate you speaking with us today.
Speaker 1:You're so welcome. I've looked at some of your stuff too, a few of them, and it's really got me interested about DID, and it's really challenging me to be like, okay, how well, you know, how well do I know my stuff? There's a big gap in my knowledge there, so it's got me so excited about learning more, so thank you.
Speaker 2:Oh, sure. Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeakcommunity.com. We'll see you there.