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From the subtleties of typography to the emotional impact of color, and the way everyday objects influence our lives, our guests share their unique perspectives on the power of design. Through candid interviews, we’ll get a closer look at the challenges they’ve faced, the breakthroughs they’ve had, and how design is not just about aesthetics, but about problem-solving, communication, and making an impact.
Join host Rae, as Type Speaks aims to inspire, inform, and showcase the voices behind the visuals.
This podcast is supported by WEGL 91.1 FM, Auburn University’s radio station. weglfm.com
00:00:02 [Speaker 1]
Welcome into Type Speaks.
00:00:04 [Speaker 1]
The show where I dive into the stories, struggles, and sparks of inspiration behind great design.
00:00:09 [Speaker 1]
I'm your host, Ray, and I'm gonna be pulling back the curtain on the creative process.
00:00:13 [Speaker 1]
But not just the work itself, but the people who make it happen.
00:00:17 [Speaker 1]
Each episode, I sit down with a different creative mind to uncover how they think and everything in between.
00:00:23 [Speaker 1]
So if you're curious about the why behind design and the stories of the people shaping our world one idea at a time, you're in the right place.
00:00:43 [Speaker 1]
Hello, everybody, and welcome into the official ninth episode of Typespeaks.
00:00:49 [Speaker 1]
It's season two, second episode of season two.
00:00:51 [Speaker 1]
It's very exciting.
00:00:52 [Speaker 1]
Today, I am joined with one of the founders and partners of Maydie, a creative studio founded by Shelton and Josh Karnley in 02/2019.
00:01:01 [Speaker 1]
They specialize in strategy driven branding for hospitality, resorts, and destination focused experiences, crafting identities that feel immersive, joyful, and impossible to ignore.
00:01:10 [Speaker 1]
Josh Karnley is joining me today and his partner and creative director.
00:01:13 [Speaker 1]
He lead the studio's vision and design and yeah.
00:01:17 [Speaker 1]
Did that sound alright?
00:01:18 [Speaker 2]
You summed it up very nicely.
00:01:20 [Speaker 2]
Thanks for having me, Ray.
00:01:21 [Speaker 1]
Thank you for so much for being on.
00:01:23 [Speaker 1]
You are also an Auburn alumni.
00:01:26 [Speaker 2]
Is this true?
00:01:27 [Speaker 2]
Correct.
00:01:27 [Speaker 1]
When did you when did you graduate?
00:01:30 [Speaker 2]
So I, I lived in Auburn from o eight to '14, and had moved up there for school not knowing that the, design program was four years no matter how you slice it and stuff.
00:01:45 [Speaker 2]
I was at I was at Southern Union doing some prereq stuff and and working and living.
00:01:51 [Speaker 2]
And, yeah, I got got into Auburn in program thinking that it would be just a four year thing and, turned into six, which was great because I was able to to stay around a little longer and be a little older in the program.
00:02:05 [Speaker 2]
And I think that really worked to my benefit as as well as getting to do some really cool things while I was at Auburn.
00:02:12 [Speaker 2]
And so yeah.
00:02:14 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:02:14 [Speaker 1]
So you started Mady with your wife, Shelton.
00:02:18 [Speaker 1]
Is that right?
00:02:19 [Speaker 2]
Yep.
00:02:20 [Speaker 2]
That's correct.
00:02:21 [Speaker 1]
She also is a Auburn alumni.
00:02:24 [Speaker 2]
She is.
00:02:24 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:02:25 [Speaker 2]
We had, she she had program, she went through nutrition, that program, and, I think there's very little to do in the nutrition space unless you wanna do more schooling, and and she didn't.
00:02:41 [Speaker 2]
And so, but we had met.
00:02:43 [Speaker 2]
So so the last two years that I was at Auburn, I was also an Auburn cheerleader, and that's how we met.
00:02:52 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:02:52 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:02:52 [Speaker 1]
So that she was.
00:02:53 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:02:54 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:02:54 [Speaker 2]
So my first year, I was assigned Shelton, who was going into her second year.
00:03:00 [Speaker 2]
We were assigned partners for the year, and that's that's actually how we met.
00:03:04 [Speaker 2]
And so yeah.
00:03:06 [Speaker 2]
And so we we had we had sort of dreamed of working together if the stars align and if it was ever possible.
00:03:14 [Speaker 2]
And, I'm sure we'll get to it when we talk about Mady and how that's going.
00:03:20 [Speaker 2]
But yeah.
00:03:21 [Speaker 2]
And and, 2019 decided to pull the trigger and start working together.
00:03:26 [Speaker 2]
So
00:03:27 [Speaker 1]
awesome.
00:03:28 [Speaker 1]
I it's I don't know.
00:03:30 [Speaker 1]
Match match made in design heaven, I suppose.
00:03:33 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:03:34 [Speaker 2]
It's I mean, it's a nice it's a nice spread in in that I handle all the sort of design and creative of it.
00:03:41 [Speaker 2]
And she had come from sales and and had really, like, grown her chops in in sales and then just social skills and working with people.
00:03:51 [Speaker 2]
And so when we originally started, she was handling most of the the outreach and the new business and client management, which honestly proved to be a really great strategy for a designer because we're historically bad at getting emailing on time and
00:04:09 [Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.
00:04:10 [Speaker 2]
Bad at delivering, project work on time and invoicing on time and going and trying to find work and make people love us for the things outside of logos and, you know, pretty colors and all of that.
00:04:23 [Speaker 2]
And it it ended up being a really great pair.
00:04:27 [Speaker 2]
And so I I know several people who have, several partners who have studios together, and they both do the design work.
00:04:36 [Speaker 2]
And and that seems that seems like it would create more challenges than how Sheldon and I have set it up.
00:04:42 [Speaker 2]
But good.
00:04:44 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:04:44 [Speaker 1]
I thought it was very interesting because, like, there's two different sides of it.
00:04:48 [Speaker 1]
Just handle each part of it as your own, which is nice.
00:04:50 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:04:51 [Speaker 2]
And and when we were smaller, you know, those first few years, it seemed like we would get work.
00:04:58 [Speaker 2]
And the people who who we would have to beat out to get the project would be freelancers, and a designer and a client side person compared to just a freelancer, you you could put a little more trust and we'd get stuff delivered on time and, you know so it honestly, the first few years, it really worked to our advantage because we could we could be a little more buttoned up than just a freelancer or something like that.
00:05:27 [Speaker 1]
So it's kind of leads into what I was gonna ask at the beginning was kind of what the inspiration was for starting Mady.
00:05:34 [Speaker 1]
Like, work I know working together as a team, but also just, like, I wanna start my own, you know, design company and firm, and I wanna do all these things.
00:05:43 [Speaker 1]
Like, what was that kind of going into that like?
00:05:46 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:05:47 [Speaker 2]
Right out of school, I took a job in advertising, which moved me to Winston Salem, North Carolina.
00:05:55 [Speaker 2]
And I had a great time in that job, but I quickly learned that the sort of, like, work hard, play hard mentality of of traditional advertising, it it seemed to be a little exhausting, for me personally.
00:06:11 [Speaker 2]
And so I quickly learned that I didn't really wanna do advertising as a career picking up.
00:06:18 [Speaker 2]
And and even through school, I mean, I I I took on mostly branding projects on the side even as a young person, all through all through college and and then all through the workforce even when I was working for someone else.
00:06:35 [Speaker 2]
And from so leaving advertising, I had we had ultimately landed in Charleston, South Carolina where I was working on the marketing side of Garden and Gun magazine, which at that time, they were doing upwards of events a year that all needed logos and emails and, menus and everything that would sort of come as, like, a bulk package for an event.
00:07:01 [Speaker 2]
And so that's what I was mainly responsible for doing.
00:07:05 [Speaker 2]
Again, I was still taking on brand work on the side, doing some work for smaller restaurant clients or or just smaller clients in general, and really ultimately kind of fell in love with that, really just in love with and, eventually, it it's probably a story that any independent designer has of of there came a time where I needed to have some courage to go out on my own Mhmm.
00:07:36 [Speaker 2]
And keeping do doing freelance work on the side, doing freelance brand work on top of a steady, job.
00:07:45 [Speaker 2]
It the scales just kinda flipped at one point and and ended up finding enough work that would justify leaving.
00:07:52 [Speaker 2]
And I freelanced on my own for a year before Sheldon and I joined forces, and got to a good got got to get a few good clients and and some stability before we both sort of jumped in.
00:08:03 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:08:03 [Speaker 2]
Talking about maybe so we had in in November 2019, we had moved back to Birmingham.
00:08:09 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:08:11 [Speaker 2]
And the the in January '20 wanted to start the studio.
00:08:15 [Speaker 2]
At that point, it was called Studio Carnley.
00:08:17 [Speaker 2]
When we started Studio Carnley, it was the two of us, and we had the intention of doing food bev and hospitality only.
00:08:24 [Speaker 2]
And if you remember what 2020 brought us, three months after we started that with the intention to to just dominate the food and bev space, all of that went away.
00:08:36 [Speaker 2]
And so staying, staying nimble and staying, trying to be as productive and and useful as we could Ended up taking on a lot of work that was outside of that, starting to do websites, starting to do work for anything from political firms to the American Red Cross to interior designers, construction crews, virtually everything other than food, bev, and hospitality.
00:09:05 [Speaker 2]
We started this was probably two years ago, two and a half years ago now.
00:09:09 [Speaker 2]
We had started thinking about how we need needed to get back to food, bev, and hospitality.
00:09:15 [Speaker 2]
And that's sort of where Mady was birthed from.
00:09:17 [Speaker 2]
This this idea of creating really interesting, really particular, almost one off destinations Yeah.
00:09:25 [Speaker 2]
Through food, bev, and hospitality.
00:09:26 [Speaker 2]
And and so we had started working on names.
00:09:29 [Speaker 2]
We had started working on strategy, brought on some outside help, in terms of consulting to to really start a sort of set the vision for that year.
00:09:39 [Speaker 2]
And April 2024, we had rebranded and reannounced our our creative firm at eighty with the intention of doing primarily food, beverage, and hospitality.
00:09:51 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:09:53 [Speaker 1]
Funny.
00:09:53 [Speaker 1]
I was gonna ask what early what were the early on challenges for Mady, but
00:09:58 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:09:58 [Speaker 1]
Here in the 2020 food, bev, and hospitality industry, I think that, I mean, that that answered my question.
00:10:05 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:10:05 [Speaker 2]
It was that was certainly a challenge.
00:10:09 [Speaker 2]
The the that first year strategy of ours for, for Studio Carnley was we we took on every single project that came through the door.
00:10:18 [Speaker 2]
We we didn't say no if if it was too quick.
00:10:20 [Speaker 2]
We didn't say no if it was too cheap.
00:10:22 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:10:23 [Speaker 2]
We said yes to everything.
00:10:25 [Speaker 2]
And that was a way to make sure that Sheldon and I could work together and stay married.
00:10:30 [Speaker 2]
And then also we were, you know, we were we were growing our family at the time.
00:10:35 [Speaker 2]
We had moved to Birmingham with one child.
00:10:39 [Speaker 2]
And by the time we started January 2020, we had another child on the way.
00:10:45 [Speaker 2]
But our life wasn't super expensive at that point.
00:10:48 [Speaker 2]
And so it was like, let's just hard as we can as long as we need to to just make sure this thing can work and Yeah.
00:10:57 [Speaker 2]
Make sure that we could have a book that would show you know?
00:11:01 [Speaker 2]
If if if we took on 30 projects that year, there were probably 10 of them that were worth showing Mhmm.
00:11:08 [Speaker 2]
Just based on that particular client.
00:11:11 [Speaker 2]
And so that's what we did.
00:11:13 [Speaker 2]
And it was brutal, and it was exciting, and it felt really scary when everything went away and really exciting when stuff came back.
00:11:21 [Speaker 2]
And so, we're five years into owning a studio together, and it still feels like in some ways we, we're still really young and and we know have having known through a pandemic and through looming talks of a recession, we know that there's, you know, there's still years and years of challenges if we, if we want to stay in this.
00:11:47 [Speaker 2]
And that's kind of part of it.
00:11:48 [Speaker 2]
Going on going on your own is is part of that.
00:11:51 [Speaker 2]
It's it's how do you be nimble when you need to be nimble?
00:11:55 [Speaker 2]
And how do you face some challenges and push through it?
00:11:59 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, I ultimately feel like like design or like branding, those restraints produce really quality work and Yeah.
00:12:08 [Speaker 2]
And and same about adversity of running a business as well.
00:12:12 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:12:12 [Speaker 1]
That was, you know, great.
00:12:15 [Speaker 1]
I mean, I met part, but the the the
00:12:17 [Speaker 2]
It was great that you faced all this terrible stuff.
00:12:19 [Speaker 2]
So It's
00:12:20 [Speaker 1]
great that you're still here and your matey's still here.
00:12:22 [Speaker 2]
That's right.
00:12:23 [Speaker 2]
I did have hair when we started the studio, and so that, that seemed to be the first to go.
00:12:28 [Speaker 2]
And so, but yeah.
00:12:32 [Speaker 1]
But, yeah, I also wanted to kind of move back to on your website and kind of the main focus as you talk about the destination minded brand
00:12:41 [Speaker 2]
Brands.
00:12:42 [Speaker 1]
Which I think is really interesting.
00:12:43 [Speaker 1]
I guess I'd never I mean, they say, you know, the the real destin the real destination is the journey, but I was Yeah.
00:12:50 [Speaker 1]
You know, I thought it was a really interesting way to describe that.
00:12:52 [Speaker 1]
Can you kind of talk more about how y'all found that as a as a way to describe your your style or I guess not style, but
00:12:59 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:12:59 [Speaker 1]
Way of working?
00:13:00 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:13:00 [Speaker 2]
I mean, that's destination minded brands is, in a perfect world, how we help our clients think of themselves.
00:13:10 [Speaker 2]
You hear you hear destination brands all the time, and that's usually reserved for, you know, hotels or resorts.
00:13:21 [Speaker 2]
And that's not where if if we ultimately end there, that is really great and really exciting because we we love that type of stuff.
00:13:30 [Speaker 2]
We love the vacation type, you know, aspirational aspect of those types of businesses.
00:13:37 [Speaker 2]
But destination minded brands are are really any company that think of themselves as providing a particular destination or experience or place of mind for their audience to land in.
00:13:50 [Speaker 2]
That was a way for us to say, yes, we wanna do the hotels and the resorts.
00:13:56 [Speaker 2]
And, yes, we wanna do the big clients, but we also wanna do the coffee shops.
00:14:00 [Speaker 2]
We also wanna do the third spaces that that people start to integrate into their lives, whether that is, you know, a church, a dive bar, a coffee shop, a gym.
00:14:12 [Speaker 2]
We've we've ended up doing a lot of, you know, work in the fitness space.
00:14:17 [Speaker 2]
But really, those those are kind of destinations that that serve as a way to sort of, open that pressure valve up a little in our lives.
00:14:26 [Speaker 2]
So we had, I think we had gotten sort of in some ways, we see we were already kind of exhausted about the clutter and just, like, the sheer amount of not very good work out there in terms of business and all of that.
00:14:41 [Speaker 2]
And so, our hope is that this destination mind is is sort of a litmus test and even even a way to stop someone from reaching out to us if they aren't thinking about the the end user and the the state of mind or the particular place they wanna immerse someone into.
00:14:59 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:14:59 [Speaker 2]
Also think with Mady and and with how we talk about ourselves, there's like a fun l and that's strategic too where it's like, you know, life is hard and life doesn't seem to be getting easier for a lot of us.
00:15:12 [Speaker 2]
And and so we we do think that brands have an opportunity to be fun or to be lighthearted or to feel inspirational or like a breath of fresh air amidst a busy schedule or a busy city or a busy life.
00:15:26 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:15:27 [Speaker 1]
I was I liked that term because it felt almost more I know it's not directly customer focused in terms of advertising, but I think when working or, obviously, I'm I've never done a full scale brand.
00:15:40 [Speaker 1]
I've only done my student projects.
00:15:41 [Speaker 1]
I can't
00:15:42 [Speaker 2]
You'll you will.
00:15:44 [Speaker 1]
But thinking about it, I like the idea of it being destination like a resort would because you're thinking intentionally about the person interacting with the brand and how that makes them feel in that space itself, which was really Yeah.
00:15:57 [Speaker 1]
A different way of thinking about it for me, you know, as a student.
00:16:01 [Speaker 1]
Sure.
00:16:02 [Speaker 2]
If if if you have in mind that that particular destination or that endpoint there, you are designing and building for them.
00:16:11 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:16:11 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:16:12 [Speaker 2]
And so it's certainly those two go hand in hand where, you know, if if and and it's why food and bev is so fun.
00:16:19 [Speaker 2]
I mean, it's fun because of that hospitality edge.
00:16:24 [Speaker 2]
It's not an app that feels cold and sterile, and you get put on a subscription service and you forget about it, and then you're upset.
00:16:32 [Speaker 2]
And, like, it's it's it's trying to make people feel better or feel taken care of.
00:16:39 [Speaker 2]
Or if it's not even that, if it's not even the kind element, it's providing something that's really good and and makes you know?
00:16:46 [Speaker 2]
And just if it's a coffee, it's a great coffee.
00:16:49 [Speaker 2]
If it's if it's a cocktail, it's a great cocktail.
00:16:52 [Speaker 2]
And so, yeah, our our hope is that we that all of that sort of gets filtered in and and passed through that filter before it it lands, like, in our cluttered inboxes.
00:17:05 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:17:05 [Speaker 1]
I did I was thinking, what kind of when when designing for brands, was was there any kind of unique or challenges?
00:17:13 [Speaker 1]
I was more thinking about, like, designing for the local versus designing for the tourist in these cities.
00:17:18 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:17:19 [Speaker 1]
So kinda is that, like, a challenge for y'all at all?
00:17:22 [Speaker 1]
Or I guess what's that trade off?
00:17:24 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:17:25 [Speaker 2]
It's it's a trade off, but it's also in some ways because of what we do with with branding and and with wayfinding, they're kind of the same challenge to solve for.
00:17:37 [Speaker 2]
I mean, it's you know, our our hope is that if it's Birmingham, it's local first.
00:17:43 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:17:44 [Speaker 2]
But Birmingham would be really great if everyone started traveling here.
00:17:48 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:17:49 [Speaker 2]
And so it's it's in in some ways, it's kinda the same challenge.
00:17:53 [Speaker 2]
How do you get someone to a space?
00:17:55 [Speaker 2]
How do you make them feel like a space is special?
00:17:58 [Speaker 2]
And then how do you guide them through the space?
00:18:00 [Speaker 2]
It's really the the the path that we think about in terms of some of the activation stuff like signage or website or anything like that.
00:18:08 [Speaker 1]
Definitely.
00:18:09 [Speaker 1]
Is is there, like of course, every design person is different when talking about this, but especially within there's a multiple people working on the same projects, not just freelance.
00:18:21 [Speaker 1]
What is, like, the internal process kind of when you start that?
00:18:25 [Speaker 1]
So you get this oh, it's a hotel, and they want this specific thing.
00:18:28 [Speaker 1]
What does that kind of look like for for y'all at Metis?
00:18:33 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:18:33 [Speaker 2]
We see it as as two camps that can sort of handle the the vision casting and and the we call it strategy the brand strategy on our end.
00:18:43 [Speaker 2]
If particular client doesn't have the story or the research or the ability to to name and get all of that in order, then I think a branding team that handles strategy would come on as early as possible.
00:18:59 [Speaker 2]
If there's a really good architect or interior design team that's sort of spearheading the the client the customer experience, then I think we sort of we certainly don't take a back seat, but we definitely are more supportive to your overall vision.
00:19:16 [Speaker 2]
So it really where we get involved is is if if there's already strategy and and, like, core philosophy or not.
00:19:24 [Speaker 2]
That's something we love to do, and it's something that as as much as possible is baked into every brand exercise that we do.
00:19:33 [Speaker 2]
But there's also really great architects and really great interior designers that handle that stuff as well.
00:19:40 [Speaker 2]
And so we either play a supporting role to them or we do it ourselves.
00:19:44 [Speaker 2]
Ideally ideally, we come on as early as just so we can oversee that and make sure it translates into some of the digital and some of the, you know, the framework for advertising.
00:19:56 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:19:56 [Speaker 1]
So y'all are more, I guess, for, like, there's a story to be told, and we we want to to tell that story for you in the sense.
00:20:04 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:20:04 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:20:04 [Speaker 2]
For sure.
00:20:05 [Speaker 2]
And it's it's strategies is still I mean, I feel like strategy is really sort of hip right now, in our space, and it's really, really valuable.
00:20:15 [Speaker 2]
And most clients are still pretty green around the idea of needing it.
00:20:21 [Speaker 2]
It sounds, in some ways, it sounds like an added expense that they weren't prepared for.
00:20:26 [Speaker 2]
But it's really I mean, it you you in in, you know, classroom projects, you see this if you don't have those parameters and if you don't set up the guardrails around the project, then it could be anything, and that's really not very good
00:20:42 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:20:43 [Speaker 2]
For for branding.
00:20:44 [Speaker 2]
It has to it has to capture the right tone.
00:20:47 [Speaker 2]
It has to speak or or at least allude to the right audience.
00:20:51 [Speaker 2]
And and that's what strategy does.
00:20:53 [Speaker 2]
It sets up those parameters in order for us to do our jobs with any sort of, objective lens.
00:21:00 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:21:00 [Speaker 2]
The word the projects that go most awry are the ones that are that are subjective and can be interpreted or open enough for for the team to start disagreeing on.
00:21:10 [Speaker 2]
And and so that's what strategy does for for our projects and for our clients.
00:21:16 [Speaker 1]
Obviously, for me as a student, it's always first question I like to you know, you ask when you're talking to professionals is like, what's Mhmm.
00:21:23 [Speaker 1]
What's working with clients like?
00:21:25 [Speaker 1]
But I think one thing that at least I've noticed with, you know, being a senior and a lot of my peers and I I are are starting to work people more, working with clients.
00:21:34 [Speaker 1]
A lot of us don't know how to set the proper expectations of what the client should expect out of us, if that makes any sense.
00:21:42 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:21:42 [Speaker 1]
How do you set those expectations with those clients ensure a a better, like, working relationship with them?
00:21:49 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:21:50 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:21:50 [Speaker 2]
We, our our work usually goes before us.
00:21:54 [Speaker 2]
And so someone has either found us from our site or a lot of word-of-mouth.
00:21:59 [Speaker 2]
And so a lot of people we we're recommended because someone's friend or someone's peer did something similar and and had a great experience.
00:22:08 [Speaker 2]
And so they're most of the times, they're familiar with our work, the rest of that.
00:22:13 [Speaker 2]
So really just making sure that you connect on, like, a relational level that that, you know, you don't have to be best friends and you don't have to be the same person or have the same beliefs or anything, but you certainly need to know that you can work together Yeah.
00:22:29 [Speaker 2]
And work productively.
00:22:31 [Speaker 2]
Most of the time, the the stuff that goes awry, it's because we ignore flags like those because we think that it'll be an okay project or we're scared to say no or we're you know, there's all sorts of reasons that we ignore red flags.
00:22:45 [Speaker 2]
Making sure making sure we connect on just a relational level, making sure they've seen our work and they're aware of, you know, they're not gonna be surprised that we did something that we have done for the last five years.
00:22:57 [Speaker 2]
And then there's a lot of talks.
00:22:58 [Speaker 2]
I mean, the majority of our projects start with hours of phone calls and proposal building, to really the pace.
00:23:07 [Speaker 2]
I mean, we most time most of the time, a client gets our proposal, and they're shocked because it's really beefy.
00:23:16 [Speaker 2]
And we are very literal on what we are providing and when we're providing it and what we're not providing.
00:23:23 [Speaker 2]
And I think that helps.
00:23:25 [Speaker 2]
I mean, if if I were to talk to a a younger person or someone that was a student, I think it complicates things when you try to get as much money as you Mhmm.
00:23:37 [Speaker 2]
As possible.
00:23:38 [Speaker 2]
You definitely need to be paid for sure.
00:23:41 [Speaker 2]
I don't think you need to be paid a ton of money because I think it's it's really important to get those reps.
00:23:47 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:23:48 [Speaker 2]
I mean, we and we can talk numbers too.
00:23:49 [Speaker 2]
I mean, tell tell me what you want.
00:23:51 [Speaker 2]
I'm happy to, you know, share whatever.
00:23:54 [Speaker 1]
I mean
00:23:55 [Speaker 2]
I'm happy to share some some base sort of, like, philosophy, especially for a younger person starting work.
00:24:01 [Speaker 2]
I I for instance, I I was told, you know, at at an internship, I was told, that you really don't give of the you don't get off the couch for less than $2,500 or whatever it is.
00:24:16 [Speaker 2]
And then a good pricing philosophy that got me got me enough money eventually to to justify freelancing was if you win something so say you won a project for a $100 Yeah.
00:24:29 [Speaker 2]
You don't need to do that work, but I'm just doing easy math because it's Friday, and and, you know, I draw pictures
00:24:34 [Speaker 1]
for it.
00:24:36 [Speaker 2]
The next one charged 200.
00:24:37 [Speaker 2]
So double it.
00:24:38 [Speaker 2]
Constantly double it until you get some resistance.
00:24:41 [Speaker 2]
And then if if you get if you get three no's in a row, then drop it down to the tier Mhmm.
00:24:47 [Speaker 2]
Previous to that.
00:24:49 [Speaker 2]
And that works its way up pretty quick.
00:24:51 [Speaker 2]
I also think if you are a student or if you are a full time worker, I think freelancing, if you can manage your your quality of life and and not just on a screen twenty four seven, it's a really great way to get reps in that you can kinda control.
00:25:07 [Speaker 2]
And so say no to work that you don't want to to do because a full time job.
00:25:14 [Speaker 2]
Or you can say yes, and and then you can, you know, work all night if you if that's what you want to do, and and make sure it's really good and really presentable.
00:25:22 [Speaker 2]
And then, eventually, you'll have enough of those that can justify, like, a good book and good numbers and and hopefully get some clients from that.
00:25:31 [Speaker 1]
I really like that explanation of money because I think Yeah.
00:25:35 [Speaker 1]
I mean, with me and with other peers, it's like, you're like, I don't wanna set set a standard rate.
00:25:41 [Speaker 1]
I'm I'm only, like, two year like Yeah.
00:25:43 [Speaker 1]
Two years old.
00:25:44 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:25:44 [Speaker 1]
I can't charge full price for a logo.
00:25:46 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:25:47 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:25:47 [Speaker 2]
I think I was doing I think I was doing, like, $1,500, thousand dollar logos as a as a college kid.
00:25:55 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, it's I'm sure I'm sure everyone understands what they're gonna get.
00:25:59 [Speaker 2]
You know, it's a young person or it's a student.
00:26:01 [Speaker 2]
And and, you know, they get that.
00:26:04 [Speaker 2]
But you are also able to, you know, to kinda do some cool stuff that'll be seen around the community.
00:26:10 [Speaker 2]
I mean, when I was at Auburn, there was a lot of cool stuff happening in Opelika.
00:26:15 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:26:16 [Speaker 2]
I graduated or at least was sort of immersed into, like, the maker's boom of, like, the early like, the 2000 into 2015 or whatever it was.
00:26:29 [Speaker 2]
And so there were a lot of people that were like, I'm just gonna start a leather shop, or I'm just gonna start a coffee shop.
00:26:36 [Speaker 2]
And it's like, that was great for us because we got to, you know, we got to work with our friend Yeah.
00:26:41 [Speaker 2]
To do stuff that was cool and visible.
00:26:44 [Speaker 2]
I I think it's I think as much and and something we've also learned as a young creative firm that, you know, with with Sheldon and I working together and we now have three children.
00:26:57 [Speaker 2]
The times where times where work was really slow is when we were like hunkered down in the four walls of our house.
00:27:03 [Speaker 2]
It's like there there is an element to having your own business where you have to be out and you have to be visible because you can just strike conversation with people.
00:27:11 [Speaker 2]
You can people can see you in your right setting.
00:27:15 [Speaker 2]
People can see you at settings that they appreciate.
00:27:18 [Speaker 2]
And so it's it's always it's always comes down to just meeting new people and being out and and seeing, you know, just living in the world.
00:27:27 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:27:28 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:27:28 [Speaker 2]
I I can think where it was like we, you know, the clients were it was like crickets.
00:27:35 [Speaker 2]
We're like, where is everybody?
00:27:36 [Speaker 2]
Like, why isn't anyone looking at our work?
00:27:38 [Speaker 2]
Our work is amazing.
00:27:40 [Speaker 2]
But it was like, you know, we had just had a third child, and we both wanted to be home and both wanted to to, you know, in some areas couldn't go out because he was so young.
00:27:50 [Speaker 2]
And and so it's like, to some degree, like, part of being a good designer is also just being a a living, breathing
00:27:58 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:27:58 [Speaker 2]
Person and going out and in world outside of a screen.
00:28:02 [Speaker 2]
So
00:28:03 [Speaker 1]
I did wanna talk and ask.
00:28:05 [Speaker 1]
You mentioned red flags for clients.
00:28:08 [Speaker 1]
Are there any, like, I guess, standout ones that are kind of almost universal in for designers?
00:28:13 [Speaker 1]
You don't have to go into specifics.
00:28:14 [Speaker 1]
I understand that.
00:28:16 [Speaker 1]
But is that something that I can ask?
00:28:19 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:28:19 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:28:19 [Speaker 2]
I would I'm happy to honestly, I'm happy to answer, like, almost anything.
00:28:24 [Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.
00:28:24 [Speaker 2]
Red flags, how you're treat you know, if if one of us isn't addressed by our name and the is not if if it feels like someone is just expecting a vendor or just a quote from the get go, that's a that's a red flag.
00:28:43 [Speaker 2]
If you can sort of sense some, like, AI, like Mhmm.
00:28:47 [Speaker 2]
Emails, that's that's becoming a new red flag.
00:28:51 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:28:53 [Speaker 2]
If there is I mean, honestly, it's if it's your first time having a business, that's, that can feel like it's it's not a rep sink the ship by any means, but it comes with a lot of other things.
00:29:09 [Speaker 2]
Most of it is is financial terror, is being scared and money, being being scared that your your concept's not good, not gonna be successful.
00:29:18 [Speaker 2]
And when I say concept, I mean, your your business idea.
00:29:22 [Speaker 2]
You know, we get we get emails from people that are like, boom, boom, boom.
00:29:27 [Speaker 2]
I've thought of this.
00:29:27 [Speaker 2]
I've done this.
00:29:28 [Speaker 2]
Here's where I'm going.
00:29:29 [Speaker 2]
It's happening whether you're a part of it or not, and it's like, sweet.
00:29:33 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:29:34 [Speaker 2]
Like, you you flicted towards starting this business.
00:29:37 [Speaker 2]
That is really great.
00:29:39 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:29:39 [Speaker 2]
And then I have some that are like, well, talk to me.
00:29:43 [Speaker 2]
Hold my hand.
00:29:44 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:29:44 [Speaker 2]
I'm a little scared.
00:29:45 [Speaker 2]
I don't know what's gonna happen.
00:29:47 [Speaker 2]
And it and that fear sort of infiltrates into every aspect of what we do.
00:29:53 [Speaker 2]
We're presenting concepts.
00:29:55 [Speaker 2]
It's never it's it's never landed on presenting the strategy and the verbal identity.
00:30:01 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, it's it gets really tough if there's some tip in this.
00:30:06 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:30:07 [Speaker 2]
If you're just a jerk, if you're, you know, sped I mean, Sheldon and I, we are fifty fifty owners of Mady.
00:30:15 [Speaker 2]
And more times than not because she's on the client side, if she's getting getting treated poorly or or if they're responding to her role in the business, it's like, see you.
00:30:28 [Speaker 1]
Like Yeah.
00:30:29 [Speaker 2]
So, I mean, you're and and to avoid a lot of that, you really just need enough you either need enough cushion to, to say no to feel like you're you're missing a you know, to not feel like you're leaving something on the table, or you just need to just be courageous enough and trusting that work's gonna come in because sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.
00:30:54 [Speaker 2]
But the ones that we the ones that go awry, and we've had a few of them that that have been really challenging, I don't think we've ever been fired from anything.
00:31:05 [Speaker 2]
But we have had projects that we're not proud of or that in a lot of tension.
00:31:10 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:31:11 [Speaker 2]
And it's because we've ignored red flags because we, like, really wanted the money or we didn't wanna or something like that.
00:31:18 [Speaker 1]
Do you find, like, more freedom working, obviously, not freelance, but, like, having this this company Yeah.
00:31:25 [Speaker 1]
To say no?
00:31:26 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:31:27 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I think it's, we're on year five, and I feel like that's a relatively new feeling.
00:31:32 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:31:32 [Speaker 2]
So the first few years, it was like, you gotta say yes because these people reached out to you.
00:31:39 [Speaker 2]
Like, they wanted and it's kinda I mean, it's it's sort of any relational process.
00:31:44 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:31:44 [Speaker 2]
It's like how how you were as a freshman versus senior or if you're dating somebody, what those first few months were compared to the you know?
00:31:53 [Speaker 2]
But, yeah, we're five years into it, and I feel like we've, in the last year and a half, have had the the courage backed by positive feedback or a good looking book to to say no.
00:32:06 [Speaker 2]
We try to make it we when we say no to a client, we try to make it their idea.
00:32:13 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:32:13 [Speaker 2]
So that could be like, oh, by the way, like, our prices start at this.
00:32:20 [Speaker 2]
Well, we we this is something we're interested in, but it's gonna be another Yeah.
00:32:25 [Speaker 2]
Time to do this.
00:32:27 [Speaker 2]
But there are definitely times where we're like, hey.
00:32:29 [Speaker 2]
I just don't think it's I I don't think I don't think we're what you're looking for, and I don't think you're what we're looking for.
00:32:35 [Speaker 2]
But here's a recommendation if it's you know, if if we if you wanna stay around here, here's a few people that that do really good work and might sit a little lower in price point or or might be open to work like this.
00:32:49 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:32:50 [Speaker 1]
Was there ever, like, a time that you may you you think at the beginning you should have said no, but it kind of do, and you're like, oh, actually, this this rocks?
00:33:00 [Speaker 2]
I don't think so.
00:33:02 [Speaker 2]
I I can't I can't think of one.
00:33:03 [Speaker 2]
I mean,
00:33:04 [Speaker 1]
honestly, it's
00:33:04 [Speaker 2]
like to to get to get to the back half of a project and it not go well
00:33:11 [Speaker 1]
The beginning is, like, super important.
00:33:13 [Speaker 2]
Had ignored we had ignored a lot of red flags that we sort of, like, stuff down of, like, I could change him.
00:33:20 [Speaker 2]
He'll he'll he'll be he'll be he'll be right.
00:33:22 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:33:23 [Speaker 2]
It's it's like those types of things where it's it's you know?
00:33:26 [Speaker 2]
Anytime a project goes bad, it's like, we saw this a mile away, and Yeah.
00:33:31 [Speaker 2]
We still just, like, sprinted towards it.
00:33:33 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:33:35 [Speaker 2]
So, yeah, I can't think of something that was that did the other the other way around.
00:33:39 [Speaker 1]
That's good to know.
00:33:41 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:33:41 [Speaker 1]
I think I think a lot of younger designers are like, oh, yeah.
00:33:46 [Speaker 1]
Like, they're emailing me and, like, not using Crepe or Grammar, and they're telling me it's too much money.
00:33:51 [Speaker 1]
But if I just keep working with them, they'll see my true my true passion and and true talent, and they never do.
00:33:58 [Speaker 2]
We had a great so I'm I've I've spent the last I've I've spent today working on getting a case study on our website for a a, a restaurant up here in Birmingham called Piece of Grace.
00:34:12 [Speaker 2]
And it was the it was the quickest, best process we've ever had with a client.
00:34:18 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:34:19 [Speaker 2]
And it was like, we picked y'all because we've seen your work, and we know what you can do.
00:34:25 [Speaker 2]
We think we work together well together.
00:34:27 [Speaker 2]
Just get to work.
00:34:28 [Speaker 2]
We're we're busy doing we're busy you know, they had purchased Pizza Grace as an existing restaurant, and they were they were adding new stuff to the menu.
00:34:36 [Speaker 2]
They were Yeah.
00:34:37 [Speaker 2]
Offering their existing staff.
00:34:41 [Speaker 2]
They were doing some construction.
00:34:43 [Speaker 2]
They were raising kids.
00:34:45 [Speaker 2]
It's another, husband and wife team.
00:34:48 [Speaker 2]
And it was like, we trust y'all.
00:34:50 [Speaker 2]
Do this.
00:34:51 [Speaker 2]
And they and they provided feedback.
00:34:53 [Speaker 2]
It wasn't, you know, the best the best gig in a world in the world for us is not someone that's just, like, have that at and run free and back to us.
00:35:02 [Speaker 2]
They I mean, they provided feedback, and they were very direct.
00:35:05 [Speaker 2]
And and we presented three concepts, and they didn't like two of them.
00:35:09 [Speaker 2]
And they were vocal about it, but they really liked one.
00:35:12 [Speaker 2]
And it was so great.
00:35:14 [Speaker 2]
It was the easiest it was, I mean, it was like a dream.
00:35:18 [Speaker 2]
I mean, Sheldon and I were we were smitten by the end of this because it was like, we got paid on time.
00:35:24 [Speaker 2]
We we we got to do really high quality work.
00:35:28 [Speaker 2]
You, yeah, you you know going in Mhmm.
00:35:31 [Speaker 2]
From those early conversations if there's something to look out for or not.
00:35:35 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:35:35 [Speaker 1]
When I was, like, first working with with people, I think I at least was looking like, oh, I wanna be able to do whatever I want and whatever.
00:35:42 [Speaker 1]
But the more I've worked with clients, the more I'm like, no.
00:35:44 [Speaker 1]
I want them to tell me exactly what to do and what they like and what they dislike.
00:35:48 [Speaker 1]
I'm glad that is is very common with your work is, like Yeah.
00:35:51 [Speaker 1]
That is what you prefer is someone giving those firm opinions and firm, almost, guidelines on things.
00:35:57 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:35:58 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:35:58 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:35:58 [Speaker 2]
We definitely don't want them solving the problem.
00:36:02 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:36:03 [Speaker 2]
We have had clients that we have said no to for saying, I want this exact thing.
00:36:08 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:36:08 [Speaker 2]
That that's just not how we work because we ask we ask a lot of time and a lot of money to do what we do.
00:36:15 [Speaker 2]
And so for someone to already know what they want, I think we're probably not the best firm for that.
00:36:21 [Speaker 2]
We definitely don't want them to not know anything, though.
00:36:24 [Speaker 2]
The world is not our oyster.
00:36:26 [Speaker 2]
And and for any designer, by the time you're done with strategy.
00:36:31 [Speaker 2]
So by the time you're done nailing down what the business is, who the business is, what the target audience looks like, how you talk about yourself, what your competitors look like.
00:36:41 [Speaker 2]
By the time you answer all of those, And then by the time you put mood boards in front of your client, you have you have taken something that was a very wide runway and you have brought the guardrails in pretty close.
00:36:53 [Speaker 2]
And so by the time we're actually building concepts, they already know the the essence of the brand.
00:37:00 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:37:01 [Speaker 2]
They already know where we're going.
00:37:02 [Speaker 2]
It may look different or may have different flavors visually or tonally, but it's not something out of left field that they would feel disappointed that that we spent all this time and money getting here only to not like it.
00:37:15 [Speaker 2]
And so we have found that that creating grills is a really good way to to end a job on on a high note and not feel any of that stress or you know?
00:37:28 [Speaker 2]
We also as a as a firm, we also include some a few revision rounds.
00:37:34 [Speaker 2]
I I know studios that present just one concept, and there it is.
00:37:38 [Speaker 2]
That's not what we do, although I wish I had the courage to do that.
00:37:42 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:37:42 [Speaker 2]
I think it's, like, really cool that people do.
00:37:46 [Speaker 2]
There may be some it may feel irresponsible since it's ultimately a a client's reputation on the line and not our reputation on the line.
00:37:55 [Speaker 2]
So giving them some freedom to to choose and select and collaborate and refine what we present, we have found that that's that's how we like to work.
00:38:04 [Speaker 2]
It's really we set up really intentional checkpoints amongst the project scope that have collaboration time with the client.
00:38:14 [Speaker 2]
And then we also set up times where we are building stuff and they don't know what we're building.
00:38:19 [Speaker 2]
And and we have found that a good way to get quality work that makes sense and is justified for the the client.
00:38:27 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:38:28 [Speaker 1]
Maybe the answer you gotta answer this a little bit earlier, but do y'all have to or how do y'all kind of handle, like, scope creep sometimes with with like, in the middle of project, someone's like, oh, I actually want more, and I want this, and I want this.
00:38:39 [Speaker 1]
It's they kind of almost get more inspired as the process continues.
00:38:42 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:38:43 [Speaker 1]
How Yeah.
00:38:44 [Speaker 2]
Do you
00:38:44 [Speaker 1]
have to do
00:38:44 [Speaker 2]
that?
00:38:44 [Speaker 2]
It happens a lot in what in just the sector that we work in
00:38:49 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:38:50 [Speaker 2]
Because it can get really dreamy.
00:38:53 [Speaker 2]
And then when you're thinking about how the end user can use this stuff, it it happens there quite a bit.
00:38:58 [Speaker 2]
What we try to do, unless it's totally pressing, is is we we explicitly state what is and isn't in scope, and then we'll push that where it's like, this is a great idea.
00:39:10 [Speaker 2]
If it can wait until the end of the project, let's circle back there because what you're ultimately doing is we we find this a lot with merch, which is a really hard thing to design for.
00:39:20 [Speaker 2]
But it's like people get really excited about merch, and then they all this time on it Mhmm.
00:39:25 [Speaker 2]
And and go back and forth and come up with stuff.
00:39:27 [Speaker 2]
But then the website's now delayed.
00:39:29 [Speaker 2]
And so it's like the whole project seems like it's sitting in disappointment over, like, a T shirt design.
00:39:35 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:39:36 [Speaker 2]
And so and and we've learned that the hard way where it's like, we'll say yes to a bunch of stuff thinking that that it's worth it or they'll leave us alone after we do this.
00:39:45 [Speaker 2]
But then it it ultimately pushes stuff back.
00:39:47 [Speaker 2]
And then what they're it just taints the whole relationship because it's like they're disappointed that we didn't deliver stuff on and all of this was over something really, really small within the project.
00:40:01 [Speaker 2]
There's also times I mean, if if I'm being honest, I look at some of our work, and I think of Highland Smokehouse, which is a cool sort of, like, campy barbecue shop in North Carolina.
00:40:14 [Speaker 2]
And then the one we recently did was was for a cocktail bar here called Bygones.
00:40:18 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:40:19 [Speaker 2]
Those went over scope.
00:40:21 [Speaker 2]
I mean, those were I mean, you just bought you just took the the timeline and just crumbled up a window.
00:40:28 [Speaker 2]
But you know what you're building, and you know that it's gonna be super visible and super cool and super worth it.
00:40:36 [Speaker 2]
And And there's times where you just have to do it to get it across the line or times you have to do it selfishly because you know it's gonna be rad.
00:40:45 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:40:45 [Speaker 1]
Looking at it, I'd I was like, this is rad, the red.
00:40:49 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:40:49 [Speaker 1]
It's like Yeah.
00:40:50 [Speaker 1]
All red, and you have the the red and almost gold match boxes.
00:40:54 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:40:54 [Speaker 2]
For bygones.
00:40:55 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:40:56 [Speaker 2]
We were able to do these, like, old produced cocktail swords that were the logo.
00:41:02 [Speaker 1]
Were the logo.
00:41:03 [Speaker 2]
And it's just like
00:41:04 [Speaker 1]
Oh, so
00:41:04 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:41:05 [Speaker 1]
So good.
00:41:06 [Speaker 2]
You get to do this kind of stuff and and to get to see people obsessing over it and, like, geeking out and really sort of I mean, I think brands are a dime a dozen, and and so it's really easy for people to, like, love brands.
00:41:20 [Speaker 2]
But for someone to really love the brand or what you created, it's like scope doesn't matter at that point.
00:41:27 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:41:27 [Speaker 2]
Staying late doesn't matter at that point because it's cool and it's, like, widely adopted by people around.
00:41:34 [Speaker 2]
Pretty sweet.
00:41:36 [Speaker 1]
Hey.
00:41:37 [Speaker 1]
Thanks for listening to Time Speaks.
00:41:39 [Speaker 1]
Hope you had a good time because I sure did.
00:41:41 [Speaker 1]
But, unfortunately, the episode is over.
00:41:44 [Speaker 1]
But don't worry.
00:41:44 [Speaker 1]
You can check us out in other places.
00:41:46 [Speaker 1]
Be sure to follow the show to listen to every new episode or listen back to some old ones.
00:41:51 [Speaker 1]
Check us out on Instagram at typespeakspod.
00:41:53 [Speaker 1]
And remember, always keep creating and always stay curious.
00:41:56 [Speaker 1]
I'll see you next time.
00:41:57 [Speaker 1]
I've been Ray.