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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
Tyson (00:01.202)
Recording. Yeah. Sweet. Man. So excited to have the opportunity to actually be able to sit down with you. Like I know we've gone back and forth a couple of times through phone calls and trying to find a good time to do this, but the, the subject of sports psychology is one that I'm really fascinated in. I've been fascinated in the subject for a whole variety of reasons, like not only for myself as a runner, but just on a daily basis of, um, you know, the things I try and check off, like I'll look at nutrition, I'll look at training.
I'll look at mindset and it just, it seems to be another, um, tool in the belt that can be really effective in, in just helping me not only feel good, perform better, but just feel as though I'm ticking the box of, you know, everything that I should be looking at in terms of how to operate at a higher level. And I know we've got so many listeners out there who are obsessed with the idea of improve improving in the world of distance running and so many of these conversations seem to operate around training, around coaching, around weekly structure.
But often the forgotten topic, I think in so many of these chats is the actual psychology behind performance. And I say all that as a, as a little bit of a launch pad. And I'll let you tell us a little bit more about, you know, what it is that you do and who it is that you work with. But I'm so keen to talk, um, you know, about the role that psychology plays in performance, some of the strategies you use with the athletes that you're actually working with, but I guess to kickstart the conversation man, like
Yeah, Abel is to give us a little bit of an overview of who you are, where you're working and what it is that you're actually doing on a day-to-day basis.
darren everett (01:35.55)
Yeah, so I came to psychology in a sort of backwards fashion. So I was a road cyclist and I was based in Europe. And for all the great Tour de France cyclists you see, I was one of the struggling guys who wasn't that talented, but was living overseas. And in our team, we had a doctor and we had a physiotherapist and psychologist. And I loved what all three of them did. And when I retired, I thought, look, I was quite fascinated by psychology and mindset, but I felt like I never actually really got.
given great advice at the time. And I was like, well, I'd love to do that, but to do it even better. And so now, once I retired and then got qualified, I was the Olympic psychologist for a lot of the sports from the London Olympics through to Rio. So I was in attendance then at the 2014 Commonwealth Games at 2016 Olympics. And then after that, went into the AFL.
and the rugby league and have been there ever since, which is, it's a fascinating sport, both Olympic sports and the professional codes.
Tyson (02:44.77)
For sure. I mean, the, the psychology in elite athletes are so interesting. And there seems to be so many athletes with such different attitudes towards the sport that they're a part of from like the most extreme example that I often think of his Lance Armstrong. He just seems like a bloke that at the drop of a hat could, you know, turn and kill his opposition if it meant he would win and then the flip side of that in, in some degree is an athlete like Usain Bolt, like obviously when it comes time to go.
he's ready to go. But just the playfulness that you see behind the actual performance or before the performance, I always found really interesting. And I often look at psychology as a little bit of a spectrum. Like you've got that really intense character, like the Lance on one side. And you have, I don't know that Usain Bolt's the best example of the most relaxed athlete, but you know that kind of athlete, that real playful, the Haley Gebra Selesis for you distance runners out there. Yeah, I'm glad you got the Gebra Selesi reference. I thought it might've been a little.
darren everett (03:37.462)
Yes, yes, yes.
Tyson (03:42.73)
too niche, but very playful, very bubbly, very optimistic. Like are there many similarities on that spectrum, despite the vast gap that there appears to be? There's gotta be some elements of just similarities between the approach that these athletes are taking into the performance, despite what the surface may say.
darren everett (04:03.814)
One of my highlights at the Rio Games was being at the warm-up track when Yusame was preparing for the one and the two. And I wanted to just basically track him because he got access to the fastest man in the world at the time. I wanted to watch him and how he warmed up. And what was really evident is that with his team, he was mucking around with his squad, he was mucking around with his coach. But you could...
clearly see the time that it was a go time. So when he was rolling and activating, you know, he was still in a very free and playful mindset state, if you will. But the minute it started to come to, when did he walk onto the track? There was a massive switch. Like, you know, you could see him flip the switch and it was all about getting done what he needed to get done and getting it done in such a way that was gonna propel him to Olympic gold. And that's...
I suppose one of the things I find really consistent is whether you're in an AFL change room, a Rugby League change room, the best of the best know when to flip the switch. And you can, it's funny, AFL, you get there two hours early, you can feel the shift in energy like the boys turn up, they're chatty, talking about golf or cricket or their private life, and then just slowly across the two hours, the energy.
Tyson (05:10.808)
Yeah.
darren everett (05:29.774)
It's just progressively building until it's go time. And that's something I think that all athletes need to get really clear on is, what state do I need to be in when I'm about to perform? And be really clear on that and then, okay, how do I get myself into that state? And when do I actually need to be to hit that state? Does that make sense?
Tyson (05:33.207)
Yeah.
Tyson (05:42.787)
Hmm.
Tyson (05:53.318)
Yeah, it's such a good, oh, for sure it does. It's such a good question. It's something that I probably should have paid more attention to had I just had the education when I was actually performing it, you know, the higher level of my own career, uh, was what do you actually need to be at this moment? Because for me, I had very similar warmups. I had very similar routines, pre-race in terms of what I was doing physically. But mentally, I don't think I could have told you an actual process that I had in place, like I might.
darren everett (06:09.742)
Okay.
Tyson (06:22.69)
have a playlist of some sort, but wasn't a particular series of songs. And often I would get to the start list, the start line. And for whatever reason, some days you'd take a certain element of confidence to the start line. And some days you take a certain level of lack of confidence. And for me, I was always really interested to find that there didn't necessarily always seem to be a correlation between the confidence that I felt going into a race and the performance. But some days I might feel a little bit, not run down, but...
just a little more mellow, a little more reflective. And if I was looking at an athlete that I thought was about to perform really well, I would have guessed that there should have been a little more hype involved. And maybe this is different based on the fact that I was a distance runner. So hype only takes you through the first 150 meters before that starts to settle down. But when you're working through a process with an athlete and it comes to actually developing a pre-race.
darren everett (07:07.372)
It's cool.
Mm.
Tyson (07:18.366)
a mental program or mental repertoire for lack of a better term. Where do you even start that process?
darren everett (07:26.166)
I mean, I'm really big on the psychologist and the mindset person, ideally should be spending a lot of their time with the athlete and the coach. Because often we find the athlete, you know, they know a hell of a lot about themselves and about their performance, but they also don't know what they don't know. So having the coach present is really important, unless it's around confidential discussions, then it's athlete and psych. But it's really about, if you're about to run...
marathon, so you're heading off on a 42k race, you certainly don't want to be wound up and jumping out of your skin half an hour out from the race because you've got a couple of hours of effort there. So it's sitting you down with the athlete and the coach and going, hey, back to what I was saying before, hey, what state do we need to be in? So you can use history as an example. So tell me about your best ever run.
What was it like before the race? What were you thinking? What were you feeling? Now tell me about your worst ever race. What was it like, say, before the race? What were you thinking? What were you feeling? And trying to understand, getting into athlete to try to understand themselves, because self-awareness with athletes is really, really critical. You need to know exactly what gets the best out of you. And again, you're just using football, because there's 22 guys in the change room.
you'll see guys there on boxing gloves, you know, a minute or two to go before they run out, and you'll see other guys who are so zen, they're meditating in the corner because they need to be nice and chill. So it's again, really understanding yourself and understanding your events. Like, you know, are you running in the 100? Are you running in the 15? Are you running in the 10K or the marathon? And going, well, what do I need? And what does my sport actually require of me as well? What state do I need to be in?
Tyson (09:15.834)
Yeah. It's such a good point. So the idea that I wasn't taking a whole heap of hype into a five or 10,000 meter start line probably sounds as though it's in line with some of the actual, um, strategies that athletes look at. Like, is there any correlation between an athlete in a hundred needing to be hyped for performance? Like, is that something that if you had a sprinter come in or a real high intensity, high contact player come in. Is.
That's something that you're going to try and structure a little more specifically than what you would like a marathon runner.
darren everett (09:50.666)
Yeah, absolutely. So they, you know, and we can all relate to this. They, they need to be really activated. They need to be absolutely on the edge, really, really ready to go. Because, you know, tens of tens of a second, determine whether you come first, whether you win the gold medal or whether you go home with no medal. So you need to be super, super activated. And then you also, and this is, this is where experience comes in. You will learn over time, oh, wow, I was actually too activated.
for that event, and so as a result of that, because when you're too activated, basically all that we're saying is that your body's sympathetic nervous system has become activated, so you've gone into fight or flight. So it's your body's stress response system, and if you've gone into fight or flight or your stress response system's been activated, then what happens is certain parts of your brain actually start to switch off, because that's what's required in fight or flight. Now, in that,
Tyson (10:20.268)
Yeah.
darren everett (10:48.594)
is the frontal cortex, the part of your brain that's responsible for executive functioning. If your coach has talked about how you want to start and your movement off the blocks, if you're too wound up and you're in a state of fire and flight, you're gonna forget some of those really critical cues that you and your coach have been working on. So, to answer that question, we need you to be pumped up, we need you to know what that feels like, we need to know how to get you up if you're a little bit under.
five minutes from the start, but we also need to help you know how to bring yourself down if you're a little bit too peaky so that you're in the exact frame of mind required to fly out of the blocks, but be really clear on the technical cues that you need to be following as well.
Tyson (11:34.994)
Yeah, that makes so much sense. I've never really thought about it like that. Like it's so easy to, I guess, throw a blanket over athletes and go, okay, when it comes to psychology, here are the focus points. Like obviously, depending on the event, depending on the length and duration, it's going to really dictate that. But are there any sort of standout features from what you see in elite athletes that, that do sort of correlate pretty well between different sports? Like, I know that's a broad question, but
I'm really curious because beneath the surface of Lance and beneath the surface of Usain Bolt, I'm guessing there's, for example, a high level of confidence of, you know, of some degree in their ability to actually be able to perform. But I had an old running coach and he used to say, no, you want to be confident. You want to be confident in your competence. And it sounds like a funny little play on words, but it really connected with me because it was
darren everett (12:22.062)
Mm-hmm.
Tyson (12:27.338)
this idea that, okay, well, you know, you're capable of performing at this level because you've done it before, or you've been very close to it in training. So the goal that you've set for yourself is, is a reasonable goal. Now, when you get to the start line, there's no guarantee that your legs are always going to feel as though they're a hundred percent fresh and bouncy and ready to go, but you don't have your confidence in that you've got your confidence in the ability that you actually have to be able to perform.
And so there are a couple of things that from my perspective seem to stand out or at least really resonate with me. But from, from where you sit with athletes of so many backgrounds, what are some of the characteristics of highly successful athletes that are almost essential in the arsenal of, you know, what is required to perform at a higher level or at least to be able to take your own performance to a higher level than you have in the past.
darren everett (13:16.67)
Well, I've been lucky enough to work with a lot of Olympic level runners in Australia and some of them, you know, base themselves here and some of them basing themselves out of the US in the university system or running professionally over there. And one of the most important things that I always talk to them about is you have to be crystal clear on your race plan. Like we can talk about what sort of state you want to be in, we can talk about, you know, about confidence, but what it has to come down to, you have to be crystal clear on what your race plan is.
that you, because then if, because if you're going to the start line, and let's say I saw them, you know, as they, five minutes out, or I saw them on the fence as they're coming out of the call room, and they might, they might say, look, they might call it, Taz, I'm not feeling it, I'm not feeling it, and they might whisper it, okay. What I'd be saying to them, you know, in terms of preparation for this is, well hang on, if you're not feeling it, what is your race plan? Oh, well, you know, and say it's an 800, well,
the first 200 metres is, so they've chunked their race plan down, so the first 200 metres is X. Okay, let's just focus only on the first, if you're not feeling it, let's only focus on the first 200 metres. Can you do whatever you and your coach have agreed to do? Yes, I can do that. Okay, well let's focus our attention only on that. And as your brain wanders off onto, oh I'm not feeling it, my legs are heavy, jeez that warm-up wasn't great, jeez my lungs feel like they're blowing a little bit harder than they should be.
hang on a minute, let's grab our brain and let's take it off that and let's focus 100% on the first sector of the race. The first 5Ks of the marathon, the first 200 meters of your 800. Can you relate to that when you were running? Like could you have dialed more into the first, say two or first four?
Tyson (14:59.618)
Absolutely, absolutely.
Tyson (15:04.61)
For sure. I think the idea of breaking it into chunks was very helpful for me. Like the way I often saw a 1500 meters, like I saw it as three laps and then you had 300 to go. That was pretty much just the way it works. And, uh, you know, I always knew that when I was trying to run around 345, all right, I want to be slightly under 60 seconds for 400. And what, what was really beneficial with that for the level that I was running at was like the idea of me going out and trying to run 335.
darren everett (15:14.95)
Yeah.
Tyson (15:32.438)
would have absolutely blown my legs apart. So if I hadn't had a race plan, I could tell that I was the kind of athlete that I would have got excited and maybe gone out with the 335 run of 300 meters and just cross my fingers and pay for it dearly. So I think having some kind of race plan was always beneficial to me because it helped me just let go of the emotion that I felt and actually stay true to the goal that I was trying to set. And I guess, um, when it comes to actually
darren everett (15:45.891)
Mm.
darren everett (15:52.779)
Mm-hmm.
Tyson (16:01.086)
not getting too caught up in the emotion, a race plan, regardless of what happens is beneficial because if your goal is to win, then you want to be somewhere near the lead, like that could be the race plan. If your goal is to run a PB, then like even more importantly, have some kind of structure in place. It's one thing I actually work with quite a lot with footballers before a 2k time trial. They'll say, I'm unfit. I can't run fast as I did last year. I'll go, well, I watched you do the 2k time trial and you ran your first 400 meters in a minute one.
which is a pace that an elite level footballer is going to go at. So it's not that you're not fit. It's just that you didn't have any clarity on the actual time that you're trying to produce. So on a personal level, this makes sense because this is something that I work with quite closely with the athletes that I'm actually coaching as well is to go, okay, hey, let's break down what your goal time is to into 400 meters chunks. And then we'll sort of just tick a lap off at a time and we'll reflect on that and adjust.
darren everett (16:28.943)
Mm-hmm.
Tyson (16:54.482)
accordingly. But what do you think that is from your perspective? So yeah, from my own experience, it feels like that logic just keeps me a little more grounded and allows me to go out with some sense of confidence in what I've got to do. But why is it that that's such an effective strategy? Just I guess that single minded focus is just really important in helping you not get distracted by all the variables that might come up.
darren everett (17:15.85)
Yeah, so I'll sort of digress a little bit to answer the question. What I talk to, whether it's whether talking track and field or whether talking tennis or professional ball sport is high performance basically is your ability. So the ability that you have or the ability that you've built minus any distractions. So, you know, you might be at 90, we use an arbitrary, some numbers here. If you're at 90 out of a hundred in your ability.
you're so easily distractible and your distractible score is 50, then your performance is only probably going to end up being around about a 40, okay? Whereas you might not be, you might be a 70 out of 100 athlete, not a 90 out of 100 athlete, but you've worked so hard on nailing your distractions and you've nailed your distractions down to maybe only a 5 now, you're gonna be a much better, right? You're gonna be a much better and much more consistent athlete than that 90 out of 100 athlete. Now they might have flushes of brilliance every now and then.
because their ability to shine through and it's a bit of a perfect storm on the day. But if we can really get you to know what distracts you and have strategies to overcome those distractions, and that's why, talking about the 1500, three laps plus 300, if you're really clear on what that first lap looks like, but not only in the time, because often the time can be, as you know, sometimes there's fast races, slower races at the start, it's around, well, what's my process in that first lap? So.
Are we talking about sitting in third spot with really relaxed shoulders? Are we thinking about knee drive or hips high? Like what are the real cues that you need to be focusing on across? Because in 400 meters, it's still a long time to get around. And if you're just focusing on the time, that can also become a distraction. Because you might be going, well, I'm not feeling it, or this feels too fast, or this feels too slow. But if we can get you to anchor back into
Tyson (18:45.55)
Hmm. Yeah.
darren everett (19:09.938)
or technically what's going to enable you to run at that speed. Did you have particular running cues for you? Like was it around knee drive or was it around like, yeah.
Tyson (19:19.714)
Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's actually a direction. I didn't think this conversation would take, but it's such a good breakdown because you know, from a psychological perspective, when you're talking about race plan, a lot of the time people say, okay, well, what's our focus in terms of speed, but what you just said is actually something that relates even more closely to what I did and what it is that I do with athletes. Cause one thing I notice, especially with athletes who are going out with the intention of running a really fast
darren everett (19:36.548)
Mm.
Tyson (19:47.742)
race, regardless of what the distance is, is they might have the race plan in place. They're ready to go. They know clearly what it is to do. And they'll go out and try and execute it based on speed and completely ignore the built up tension that's come with, uh, you know, the pressure that's come on them to run a certain time. And so technically as they've gone out at the pace that they've got to run to run their goal time, they have built up tensions, whether it's through their jaw or their shoulders, their hands.
darren everett (20:13.899)
Yeah.
Tyson (20:14.922)
And you can see the effort there clearly, but you can also see that technically something's off, it's almost as though that tension has, um, you know, built up one of the things you asked is, did I have any cues and you actually said it like relaxation through the shoulders was one of the most helpful cues that I ever had because it's so easy to tune into. And even though there's a lot of coaches out there who love to get really buried down in the science of technique and that's fine, like it's a really interesting subject.
But I think for 99% of the population, like community runners, which seems to be the majority of the audience who listens to this podcast, that simple cue is so beneficial because you can feel it. Like we all know what tent shoulders feels like when we're just getting around our day and we know what it feels like when we're running and we know how it feels when it gets more tense. But a lot of the time it's just the awareness of what, what's actually taking place seems to be forgotten. And so that was huge. Um,
A lot of the time, my old running coach, Joe Carmody, he passed away years ago now, in 2005, but he was a huge guide teacher to me on the subject of technique. So a lot of his cues were very much revolving around the subject of relaxation and sort of freedom through the shoulders. So they're the ones that come to me most, more than knee drive and things like that, because obviously I was more focused on the longer distances.
darren everett (21:28.916)
Mm-hmm.
Tyson (21:38.454)
But how far does that boil down? Because obviously when it comes to pace, sure, it makes sense. When it comes to technique, sure, it makes sense. When you're looking at an actual performance on the track, are there any other things that come under that category of race strategy that the average runner might just forget to even think about?
darren everett (21:56.83)
Yeah, so another thing we talk about, I talk about a lot, is what it's called what if planning. So you've got to be clear on some critical what ifs. So what you don't want to do is something happened in a race that you haven't thought about and haven't got a strategy for. So I had a Nike sponsored professional athlete last year and there was a particular race that he was doing in the States. And he was like, well, for me, this is actually.
essentially a training race. You know, I'm still coming back from injury and so I'm trying to build fitness, but you know, there's gonna be two guys in this particular race that are gonna go out really hard. And he was, so we were like, well okay, if they go super hard, you know, that's a what if. So what if they go super hard, what's gonna be your approach? What if the race is really slow, what's gonna be your approach? So, not sure if I'm answering it right for the park runners, but for the elite runners, I want you to have a really
clear, do some what if planning. What are the three critical scenarios that could happen in this race and how are you going to respond to those scenarios rather than trying to work it out on the fly, which usually means if someone takes off, if you haven't thought it through, often you'll go with them and then you'll find yourself blowing up at 600, 800 and then the race is over. So I'm not sure I answered that question correctly.
Tyson (23:12.343)
Mm-hmm.
Tyson (23:20.646)
Oh, no, that's a great answer. It makes a lot of sense. No, no, a hundred percent. That really, uh, really resonates in terms of the park runner. Like, uh, I guess it just depends on the individual, but some of the challenges that might come up, whether it's, you know, trying to run a particular distance or navigate your way through a stitch or a pain, are there many community level athletes that come in to try and get some level of benefit here, or is this something that, you know, when we're talking about sports psychology.
From what I can tell, it seems to be an industry which lends itself towards the upper echelon of high performance athletes who are trying to get that, that next 1% to go from a very, very good athlete to, you know, one of the best athletes.
darren everett (23:50.754)
Yeah.
darren everett (23:59.338)
Yeah.
darren everett (24:04.658)
One of the things I'm trying to do is, essentially psychology is born out of the clinical model where if you're feeling sort of mentally unwell or mentally not at your best, then you might go to your GP and head off to a clinical psych. And then essentially sports psychology has evolved off the back of that. But what I'm trying to do when I go into teams, when I say teams, I can be an individual athlete and their team is their coach and their physiotherapist or a-
a sports team is go hang on a minute, let's integrate this. Let's look at it as you can only train three things. You can train your mind, your body, and your craft. So whether you're doing a park run and wanting to get the best out of yourself, you've gotta be training your body, so your physiology obviously. You've gotta be training some sort of technique to make sure that you're efficient in your movement. But you've also gotta train your mind. And...
they shouldn't be seen as independent. Like, oh, look, I'll just go for a run. I should be like, well, no, I'm gonna go for a run and I'm gonna make sure my technique's as good as it can be and I'm gonna make sure my mindset's as good as it can be. So you should be looking to train your mind, your body and your craft at all times, no matter what level you're at. In professional sports, I'd often have sometimes arguments, sometimes debates with the coach and he'd say, oh, look, so-and-so is going really well. I mean, he doesn't need to come and see you. I'm like, but if so-and-so is going really well in the gym.
Do you give him three or four weeks off and say you don't need to go to the gym anymore? Or he's training really well, so let's not let him kick today. Let's give him a week off and he can go to Bali. It's like, no, let's get a professional athlete or the park athlete to train their mind, their body and their craft to get the most out of themselves.
Tyson (25:39.786)
Yeah.
Tyson (25:48.894)
I love that. It relates so well. Mindset is one of those things that I notice is often the first thing to slip. When I'm in a good mood, I do exactly that. I go, okay, I'm going to Bali for a week. Do you know what I mean? And I forget about it. Whereas when it comes to exercise, like there's very, very few days where I haven't gone out and actually done something. And I think part of that is the external sort of proof.
darren everett (26:02.627)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tyson (26:16.658)
of what you've been doing. Like it makes sense if you're looking at an athlete who is going to the gym, um, you know, the skinny athlete like me, when I left middle distance running, I always said, all right, I'm going to put on some weight. And what I loved was the work was obvious. I would go places and people go, Tosh, your arms looking bigger. I go, yeah, I've been in the gym. But with mindset, apart from the, the feeling of maybe being down in the dumps, it's just so, it seems so nuanced and it seems so sneaky in the way that it works in the, you know, for an hour in a particular day, I might feel great.
darren everett (26:25.505)
Mm.
darren everett (26:31.934)
Yeah.
Tyson (26:46.378)
And then another hour in a particular day, I might feel slightly off. And so you don't get a really good, clear gauge on where you're at mentally sometimes. And so one of the things that I've found really helpful to me, which I actually, I need to be more disciplined with than I am. I've actually got it written up on my, my wall next to me, a little bit out of shot is like, I like to a couple of times a day, just stop with, uh, like a thought monitoring sheet and just gauge what it is that I'm allowing just to roll around in my mind, like that cognitive behavior therapy.
darren everett (26:53.939)
Yeah.
Tyson (27:14.658)
Cause I'll often, I'll get caught up. And this was something that I did a lot after a negative or a performance, which I didn't think was great in athletics is I'll dwell on it for so long. And before I knew it, I just convinced myself I was in terrible shape and training wasn't working. Whereas it wasn't true at all. It was just a story that I'd created. And so the idea of actually stopping to challenge these faulty patterns of thinking for me is, is really helpful. But when it comes to the, the psychology, I mean, there's so many.
darren everett (27:14.719)
Yes.
darren everett (27:28.759)
Mm-hmm.
Tyson (27:43.962)
angles that you can have this discussion from, which is why it's so interesting to me. Like obviously you've got the preparation phase, but then I know the struggle of being between races, like whether it's a weekend to weekend or over the course of a week or depending on the sport over the course of hours, if you've got like a first and second round or whatever it might be is you've got to try and navigate your way through those frustrating emotions that comes with a disappointing performance. And one thing that I actually spoke to Ryan Gregson about on here,
couple of years ago, which has stuck with me since was after a bad race, he said he would give himself a certain period of time to be pissed off about it. And then as, and he was talking like a matter of hours. And so he would get to the end of six hours after a bad run and he goes, okay, the rule is there's no dwelling on it anymore. That's done. That's dusted. Let's move forward. And I mean, it's probably easier said than done, but from a mental perspective, so much pressure is just taken off your shoulders when you refuse just to.
darren everett (28:19.072)
Mm.
Tyson (28:41.398)
sort of linger in that half depressed, half frustrated phase. Is that something that you notice a lot with athletes who come in? Like what kind of an impact does a negative performance have on an athlete's ability to be able to back up?
darren everett (28:56.51)
Yeah, massive, like it's huge. And again, whether it doesn't matter whether you're playing under 14 football, you're, you know, you're going in your 5k park run or you're pushing for the Olympics. A bad performance. Will impact your mood, it will impact your relationships, it'll impact your sleep, and we don't want that to be the case. So what Ryan's saying is spot on and in a bit more detail, what I will say to any athlete.
doesn't matter what level and what sport is, you know what, you've got 24 hours to be upset about this because it matters. Okay, again, if you're trying to run, you know, your first sub 20 in a park run, that matters to you. You know, you've put in a fair bit of time, you've made some sacrifices, you've got up early before work, or you're another 14 footballer, it matters to you. So it's okay to be disappointed and, you know, we'll give you 24 hours. But then after that,
If you're serious about getting better, you've then gotta now go, right, what are the learnings I can take from that performance? That's the critical next question is, okay, I've given myself 24 hours, I've essentially been upset or I've sooked up a little bit and that's completely cool, but hey, now let's sit down and go, let's find the learnings out of that performance. And I'm really big on the four to one ratio and it's based on the brain's negative bias. So the human brain is hardwired to be negative. And...
Without going into too much science, the reason why is because in the hunter-gatherer days, we had to have a negative predisposition, otherwise we would wander across another tribe. And if we thought, you know, we took this friendly, everyone loves me mindset, you wouldn't have survived very often, for very long back then. So you were hardwired to be skeptical, to be negative, to make sure that you stayed alive. So what we say to athletes, okay, right, 24 hours, right, and now let's sit down and talk about what learnings can we find out of that event.
Well, I did this wrong and this wrong and this wrong and this wrong, and I'm like, hang on a minute. Let's go with a four to one ratio. Okay, so if you want to tell me four things you've done wrong, great, let's go. But now you owe me 16 things you've done well. Okay, and I don't want to do that. So, you know, if you are another 14 football or a park runner, hey, even though you think you did a really, you know, you set out to run sub 20 and you end up running 24, 30, okay. Well, let's first of all get into what are four things you're really happy with today? Well, happy with my nutrition, you know, my pre-race nutrition.
Tyson (31:01.57)
Hehehehe.
darren everett (31:21.734)
my sleep the night before, hey I heard Darren talk and I had a really clear plan. So there's four things I did really well, but hey, okay, what's the critical learning there? Well, maybe it was my pacing, maybe it was X, Y, and Z. But Darren, I don't wanna just have one bad thing, there was actually two or three bad things I did wrong. Okay, great, let's find those learnings, let's document them. But hey, let's now lean into the things you did well, because we wanna constantly over counteract that brain's negative bias.
Tyson (31:49.154)
For sure. I really noticed this in myself. Sorry to interrupt you there. I really noticed this in myself, whether it was after a race or I don't even know if I've told you that I do standup comedy, but standup comedy. Yeah. It's become, it's become like a lot of the energy that I used to invest in my running training is now being invested in standup comedy and I almost, I definitely approach it like I did athletics. And, and one of the things I often notice is, uh, after a bomb, like after I go out and I try a new joke.
darren everett (31:52.689)
I know.
darren everett (31:58.826)
You know, you did mention it. Yeah, yeah, I'm fascinated by that.
darren everett (32:17.314)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tyson (32:18.814)
or I try an old joke that usually works and it just falls flat. I'll be driving home. And it's amazing just how many little doubts creep into your mind. Like despite the fact you've had good nights before or for the sake of this conversation, good runs before, I'll catch myself going, oh, you know, perhaps it's, I hadn't put enough work in, just not as talented as I thought, I didn't connect with the audience. And it's so easy, like it's the easiest thing in the world to get caught in a negative emotion of what's taken place. So this idea of counteracting like that four to one.
It makes so much sense to me because I definitely noticed that predisposition in my own mind. And in fact, uh, for the last 12 months or so, I've just got like a little notebook that I take to each gig and I'll have like my set list. And then at the end of each gig, I'll usually just do three little dot points. Like didn't connect well with the crowd. Uh, this joke amazing or whatever it might be, but I might even implement that four to one strategy. Cause it actually forces you to be honest with yourself. Doesn't it? Like, yeah, sure. You can, you can notice.
darren everett (33:13.654)
Totally.
Tyson (33:16.867)
and write down the negative aspect, but let's also keep that confidence afloat with everything you're doing well. And it's very easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater, isn't it?
darren everett (33:25.858)
Totally, and what we want to do is get away from those really global slash general thoughts of maybe I'm just not good at this. Because then the other thing, so let's say I was hanging out with you backstage post-performance and you started saying that, I'd be like, oh mate, Tyson, is that a helpful thought? Like, is that going to help you be better next performance? Maybe I'm just not good at this. Maybe I'm just not a good runner anymore. Maybe I've lost it. Well, come on, how helpful is that thought? Let's get specific.
Tyson (33:51.81)
For sure, yeah not at all.
darren everett (33:55.37)
and try to understand what worked and what didn't work. And if you're sitting back going, well I don't wanna do four to one, well then let's go two to one. You know, like four to one is the science, but if you go, oh, that's a bit too positive for me, then you go, right, let's go two to one. Let's go two to one, let's find two things you did well, Tyson, and what's that one thing that you really think you're stuffed up on? Okay, now, between now and the next performance, how do we go away and practice that?
Tyson (34:06.871)
Yeah.
Tyson (34:18.378)
Yeah, it's really good. I like it because it's so actionable as well. Like between that and giving yourself a cutoff time for how long you're allowed to sook at or sook on it for. Is I feel pumped up just hearing it because all of a sudden, like if you're carrying negative energy from one particular session or gig or whatever it is that you're doing five days into the week, like how much of a negative impact that having on every other element of your life and more than that is.
darren everett (34:26.402)
Mm.
Tyson (34:42.442)
What I notice is if I do get myself into a little bit of a funk, I bring up a real lack of confidence to the stage the next time I get up there. And there's something in comedy, particularly, where it's like the audience can sense when you're slightly off. And if I'm getting up there and like my confidence is low, you just, you know, whether it's acknowledged or whether it's said out loud or not, you just notice you're being picked apart.
darren everett (35:08.526)
Mm-hmm.
Tyson (35:08.622)
And it's very rare that you get up there with no confidence and deliver a good performance. So yeah, that idea of just cutting it off, giving yourself a positive reflection points makes so much sense. But in terms of like, one of the things that's such an interesting conversation as well is goal setting. And I know so many runners, very obsessive group of people, very goal oriented in many respects. There's so many different ways I've noticed that people set goals. Like I've been through so many in my own life.
of, all right, I'm going to say goals five years in advance and two months in advance. And, um, at the moment I'm pretty much in like a little sweet spot where had a conversation with a guy actually this morning, but he's been on the podcast, uh, previously as well, Gordo burn. And he's known for his, um, what do you call it? Like a thousand day journey towards elite performance. And his mindset is that like consistency over the course of a thousand days can produce incredible results, regardless of where you're at.
darren everett (36:05.206)
Yeah. Correct.
Tyson (36:06.814)
in your journey right now. And so I've sort of taken that philosophy and applied it to marathon running. So at the start of this year, I said, okay, I'm going to give myself three years of consistent running and trying to run a really good marathon. But within that is obviously like little bite sized chunks that in six months. I, for me right now, I just like to develop that consistency to build up calf strength, which, you know, so many listeners know, cause I was going on about it so much last year had been a problem. Is there a particular form of goal setting that
that you sort of lean towards when you're working with an athlete in terms of how to structure it, what it is you should be shooting towards, how to measure it, anything else you might want to throw on top of that.
darren everett (36:46.218)
Yeah, so goal settings are really important, but it's also really tough because the standard model that people who are familiar with this space will know is that, hey, we've got to set smart goals. We've got to set smart goals. They've got to be specific and measurable and achievable and real and time-bound and whatnot. But the trouble with that approach is, now I want to run a sub three hour marathon in 12 months time. Well.
each marathon that you run as a practice, as a lead up, as a build up, to that, even though you're not gonna hit that time then, you're actually failing, and that's how your brain processes it. Oh, I'm not at three hours yet, I'm not at three hours yet, I'm not at sub three hours yet. And so goal setting's tough, because you're always failing until you actually hit the goal. And then what happens as humans is then when we hit the goal, we're like, ah, geez, sub three hours was great, now I wanna go sub 255.
And so you never actually allow yourself to stop for very long and enjoy it. So it is really important to set the long-term goals and then the intermediate goals. But the most important thing is to set the right system. Okay, so I definitely will talk about goals, but then I'm like, right, let's now really get into the system. So what system is going to enable you to run that? So let's say we break it down.
So maybe a three month goal, like we've said, a two year goal or a one year goal, let's break it down, so what would it look like in three months time? Okay, it's maybe running this particular time. Okay, what's our system gotta look like to enable you to hit that in three months time? And then even going a bit shorter than that, going, hey, what's our system gotta look like for the next month? So you mentioned calf strength, so you might say, I'm gonna do, based on, you could say, physiotherapy advice, I'm gonna do...
Tyson (38:27.234)
Yeah.
darren everett (38:40.886)
you know, four days, five days, whatever the advice is, of calf work before I go to work. And so then straight away, soon as you've done that at say 5 a.m., bang, you've met that system. So there's a little dopamine hit there, like bang, I've done that. So I'm all about yes, set your goals, yes, narrow them down, but then critical question is, what system do I have to design to enable me to hit that? And that can be based around working with
Tyson (39:08.624)
Yeah.
darren everett (39:11.146)
your husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, parents to also enable you to have the space to be able to do that. I digress a little bit. My wife often laughs at this. I have a clinical practice in Sydney as well and I'm carved out of niche in marriage counseling. And it sort of came about by accident. I've done lots of study in it since my wife often laughs going, I wish you could nail your marriage like you're trying to nail everybody else's.
It's quite interesting, most of the couples that come in are reasonably well educated and half an hour, and they'll tell me that problem's in the first half an hour, and I'm like, you know what? I'm here to tell you right now, it's your system that's letting you down. And they often get very cranky at me, and they're like, I'm not paying you good money for you to sit here and tell me our system's stuffed. I want better advice than that. I'm like, give me three sessions, and I promise you, we'll be in a better place. And then by the end of it, they're like, you're a genius. And of course I'm not, but it's...
Tyson (40:06.838)
Yeah.
darren everett (40:07.958)
But it's around the system is the system that they're functioning in together is what's not allowing them to fly. And so goal setting, you've got to get your system spot on. Otherwise, that's what's going to let you down. That's what's going to inhibit you from your goals. Does that make sense?
Tyson (40:23.11)
Yeah. It's funny you say that. Oh, absolutely. It makes a lot of sense to me as well. Cause it's something that I've been thinking about specifically. I read late or in the middle of last year, uh, the power of habit. I can't remember the guy's name who wrote it, but it was a really popular book. I'll link it for anyone who's interested and he talks about it. And I think he uses the word process for where you say system. And it made so much sense to me because yeah, the idea of trying to run a, you know, three hour marathon to use your example is great.
darren everett (40:37.514)
Mm-hmm.
Tyson (40:53.494)
But there's three years where you're not achieving your goal. Whereas with that process or with that system, it's almost like daily, you're taking practical steps towards achieving that goal. And if you do sort of like what we were saying before with the race strategy, like if you have it broken down into smaller chunks and you can see on a daily or a weekly basis that you're, you're ticking the boxes, you're taking steps towards it, then that confidence and momentum that you build really stands out. I listened to, haven't listened to him for a while, but I used to like this guy.
in America called Dave Ramsey, like he's a money management guy. And he talks about the snowball effect. And he says that when it comes to trying to pay off debt, one of the things he encourages people to do is to get all their debts, rank them from smallest to largest and people often go, okay, and then we pay off the largest and work our way down. He goes, no, the opposite. He goes, if you've got a $23 debt, pay that off first, cause you can probably do that today. And that's already developed a little bit of momentum.
darren everett (41:26.158)
Okay, yeah.
darren everett (41:30.414)
Mm-hmm.
darren everett (41:51.928)
Correct.
Tyson (41:52.086)
and then you pay off your $51 debt and yeah, you've done two. And when he speaks about it, I go, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. And in the same way, what you're saying about systems, it gives me that feel. It's like, oh, look at us, we're making progress, we're making traction, we're seeing benefit, we're seeing improvement. All of a sudden that three hour benchmark doesn't seem so big and lofty a goal because you've taken so many steps in between.
darren everett (42:16.382)
Mm-hmm. And look, you're 100% right, and I can give you another example. Sometimes in the clinic, you'll have people come to you and they might wanna lose something massive like say 40 kilos, okay? And you go, right, well we need to get you into the gym, and they're like, but I just can't get myself going. And you're like, right, I don't have problems. All I want you to do four days a week is get out of bed at whatever time they agree. I want you to put your running shoes on, and I want you to walk all your gym shoes or whatever.
and I want you to walk out the front door. But we're talking about going to the gym, I can lose 50 kilos. No, no, no. Let's just, because they haven't trained, haven't moved, haven't gotten out of bed for God knows how long. No, no, let's just get those shoes on and get you out the front door. And then you can turn around and walk back and jump back in the bed. Can you do that? I can do that. Because it's all about trying to reduce the friction in your brain as well, when there's some inertia. And then the next week, you know what? Let's get you to walk into the gym. And then if you go and lift after that, great.
But it's around just trying to go, and if you go, all I'll have to do this week to hit my goals is I have to do my long run on the Saturday, I have to do my hard workout on the Thursday, and I've got to do my calf work every night. Well, that's not that hard to do. But if you string that together for one week, two weeks, three weeks, a thousand weeks, a thousand days, then you're gonna go and hit your goals. So.
Tyson (43:38.734)
Hmm.
Tyson (43:42.953)
Yeah, it's so good.
darren everett (43:43.638)
Get your system refined, get it clear, lean into your system, and then the results will take care of itself.
Tyson (43:49.802)
And when it comes to actually clarifying what the system is, where do you start there?
darren everett (43:56.211)
That's what having a good coach comes in and having a good team, whether it's your mum and dad, your husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, is like, what are the basics? So you bring your goal down to just the next four weeks. I'm really big in terms of bookending your goals. So you've got your big lofty three-year goal. Okay, what might that look like in a year's time potentially? But what's the next month look like? Well to achieve my goal in the next month, I need to run.
darren everett (44:25.683)
24 days, or I need to run 20 days. Okay? Or based on the constraints of your life, around your work and your travel, or your study, or your family, let's start to design that system. So, oh well I need to be running at 6 a.m. every morning. Okay, well what time do you need to go to bed the next day? The previous day, oh, nine o'clock. Okay, so, you know what? One of my goals is I'm gonna go to bed at nine o'clock every day for the next month.
just really, that's the simple level. Does that make sense? Like, what time's your bedtime? What time's your uptime? How many times a week have you gotta run? How many times a week have you gotta do your stretching? How many times a week have you gotta do your calf work? So it's really narrowing it down to a four week goal, but then a what's a one week system look like?
Tyson (44:58.242)
show.
Tyson (45:14.63)
Yeah. It's so good. I mean, all of this stuff on paper, it makes a lot of sense, but then I know the experience of just having a negative, uh, like a negative experience or missing a day, losing that momentum and just witnessing myself or someone I'm working with, just lose a bit of motivation. And I mean, I know resilience has become such a hot topic in, you know, mainstream as well as sport. But in terms of actually being able to maintain, um,
some element of resilience throughout the process, the highs and lows, like the moments where you're hitting the goals and then the week where you get sick and you didn't hit any of them. Are there any just little simple strategies as a way out just to be able to get your mind back on site? Like I mentioned for me, that thought monitoring was really helpful. But what else is a standout practice that someone can do who might be struggling with confidence, resilience, or commitment to what it is that they're doing?
darren everett (46:12.854)
Yeah, I mean there's a lot in that question, but like there's one, to give the listener something to sort of anchor to, there's this little model called AAA, and it goes awareness, acceptance, action. Okay, and what that means is, you first of all have to become aware, when you're starting to get wound up or disappointed or frustrated, okay, so you become aware, okay? And then the next level is acceptance. So if you...
starting to get wound up or upset or disappointed because you've been sick for the last week. It has to be, it's really important that there's a level of acceptance. Like in life, acceptance is really, really important. And there's a whole clinical psychology approach called acceptance and commitment therapy. But we wanna accept that, okay, look, I've been sick. Okay, can I learn from that? Like, you say anything I did wrong, like obviously wrong that led to that sickness, or did I just pick up something that was in the environment? Okay, so I'm aware that I'm getting wound up.
Hey, I've accepted that, hey, it sucks that I got sick, it sucks that I missed a week's training, but what's the critical next action that's now gonna propel me forward? Well, you know, running's time on legs. You know what, I've just gotta get out and get some time on my legs again. So today I'm gonna, it's my first day back, I know I'm not gonna run well, no, I might not run well, sorry. It might not be as long a session as I thought I did, but hey, I just gotta get some time on legs.
Sounds like, let's get awareness of when we're going a bit off track mentally. Let's accept that stuff's gone down, I've got sick or I've got injured. But now what's the first or the next action that's gonna take me forward again? What are your thoughts on that?
Tyson (47:50.886)
Yeah. Awesome. No, that's really good. Oh, it makes a hundred percent sense. It's so interesting to me how often that momentum builder, that confidence builder is just that small step. I'll just say, forget the big stuff. Let's just take a practical step back towards what it is you need to do. And it doesn't, it doesn't seem to matter what it is that we're talking about, whether it's a, you know, a weight loss goal, a running performance goal, a goal in, you know, my relationship or whatever it is, just take that small step.
And do that daily and you'll be amazed if you've got some form of clarity on where it is that you're trying to get to, how much does that consistency each day can, can lead you towards it? So, man, I mean, that makes a whole heap of sense. I'm, I'm often surprised at how it's just the commitment to the simple things, which makes the biggest difference. And this is one of those examples where it's like, okay, you don't have to overcomplicate it, just rock up, do the simple thing, put your shoes up, walk out the front, as you say.
And do that until you're at a point where you can, you know, take the next step. I think this is something that's going to relate a lot with a lot of community. We've got, I've got endless emails from community athletes all around the world, just saying that, you know, commitment to the goal is so difficult because they just feel like they're so far off it. And I mean, I think what you just said is, is the answer, but sometimes just how simple it sounds often puts people off because they're like, no, I needed something really complex and hard to digest.
But it's the commitment to the simple stuff that really seems to make a difference from, you know, what I have experienced and from what I can tell you.
darren everett (49:29.298)
is that, well look, I've been around the best of the best, I've been lucky enough to be around the best of the best for many years across many sports, and the number one trait of great athletes that I've come across is they're certainly very obsessive about their performance, about their development. Doesn't matter what level you're at, they're just very obsessive about it. But simplicity is key, and in psychology, when you really break it down, there's only, or mindset, there's only two levers that you can really pull, and that is the levers of thoughts and the levers of actions.
Okay, so, and the actions are the easiest things to do. So again, if you've been sick, if you've been injured, and you're starting to worry about the setback, and hey, it's just like, no, come on, let's just go and take the immediate next action, or what's the right action to take right now?
and you go and commit to that. Because what you don't want to do is let the mindset start to impact the actions. Because there's another little model, say from cognitive behavioral therapy, as you mentioned, how you think impacts how you feel, then how you feel impacts how you behave. So to your point earlier, which was spot on, we have to be so critical about what we let swim around in our mind. Okay, so we often can't control what comes into our mind, but we can absolutely control what we do with it.
Tyson (50:21.518)
Mm.
Tyson (50:41.546)
Hmm.
darren everett (50:48.182)
So if something comes in that you don't like, well we challenge it and replace it with something more adaptive.
Tyson (50:54.058)
Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Man. I seriously, it's a conversation that, uh, it could have for hours and hours as you probably do each day and still have plenty more to teach, plenty more to discuss, but I've got my eye on the clock. I know you've got plenty on, so I'm going to love you and leave you, but maybe we do a round two at some stage when you've got room in your calendar. Cause that's a subject that I'm fascinated by. And I know, I know, uh, the audience of relaxed running is going to love what you've had to say, man. So thanks for making the time to come on.
darren everett (51:20.35)
No, thanks so much. I loved it. Thanks Todd.
Tyson (51:23.334)
Easy. We'll leave that there. I'll see you later everybody. Man, you're a legend. That was great. I'll cut that recording off. Um, that was a, that was a fun chat, man. I'm sorry. I felt harder. A couple of times I was trying to
darren everett (51:26.968)
Thank you.