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Is grit really the secret to success—or have we oversimplified it? In this episode of The Shrink Down, Too Legit To Quit: The Truth About Grit, we unpack the psychology behind grit—what it is, what it isn’t, and why it matters. Drawing on the work of Angela Duckworth, we explore how passion and perseverance shape long-term achievement in academics, sports, and life. But we also examine the nuance: when does grit build resilience, and when can it turn into unhealthy persistence? We discuss how anxiety, fear of failure, and perfectionism can interfere with grit in today’s youth—and why a growth mindset is essential for sustainable motivation. Most importantly, we break down practical ways parents can foster perseverance without pushing their children toward burnout. Because grit isn’t about grinding at all costs. It’s about knowing when to push, when to pivot, and how to stay in the marathon.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
The Shrink Down (00:01.484)
Welcome back to the Shrinkdown. Today we're going to be talking about grit. You've probably heard this concept. So today we're going to explain it from a psychological perspective. We'll talk about what is grit, how can we build on grit, and can you maybe have too much grit. So before we get in today's topic, let's do our four minute faves. Does anybody want to start?
Wilhelmina (00:14.775)
.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (00:21.131)
I'll go. So I'm actually reviewing two of the faves that in thinking about my four minute fave today, I realized I don't really have anything meaningful that's new or I'm excited about right now. But in looking at past purchases and things I keep repurchasing or like I've been really enjoying, it's two of your faves. So Wilhelmina had recommended in either the previous episode or the one before it just recently, The Amazing Generation.
Teri (00:22.854)
So I'm reviewing two of the things that, speaking about my core, I realized that hopefully, you see all that view, or I'm excited about right now, but looking at how this is.
Wilhelmina (00:45.132)
Ahem.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (00:47.765)
and I can concur. think it's a great, I think it's just a great tool to like have, it's sitting on our kitchen counter and we're kind of, know, yeah, we've got it right there. We're starting to go through it. The boys definitely gave me big eye rolls when it came out of the Amazon package, but I think slowly, I like the way that it's formatted in that graphic novel kind of format and with like quick little sound bites of information, which is really nice too.
Teri (01:04.945)
I think slowly I like the way that it's formatted in that graphic novel kind of format.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (01:16.067)
So I would definitely support that as a recommendation. And then this one was a while back. Vanessa had recommended Mismouth's Messy Eater Stain Treatment. Gosh, this was probably over a year ago. And that's one of the things that I have realized, like in looking back at purchases, I keep repurchasing it. In fact, I just got like the big bottle.
The Shrink Down (01:27.83)
Yes. So good.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (01:38.243)
So we all in my family really like it. I love that you don't have to let it sit for 15 minutes or whatever before you launder because that's always my downfall. Like I'll treat something and walk away and then I realize I've got like uniform pants that have the treatment on them and I never washed them. So, highly recommend that one Vanessa. That's been a good one for me.
Teri (01:40.358)
love it. don't have let it sit for 15 minutes or whatever before you launder because I've always been downfall like I'll take countries one way when I realize I've got like uniform pants and have to treatment on them and I never washed them. I highly recommend that.
The Shrink Down (01:54.062)
Yeah, I love that stuff. I have the little bottles because I leave them everywhere in the house. I'm like, there's one downstairs, there's one upstairs. I'm like, go spray! When I see food. Yeah. It probably makes more sense to buy a big bottle.
Teri (02:00.326)
because I see them everywhere in the house. I'm like, there's one upstairs, there's one upstairs. like, so great. So I went to the little one because I just realized I have to leave those in the locker room. like, I'll probably make for a big bottle. Well, can you undo it? You probably get the big bottle filled up in a couple of ways. I bet you there's even an option to that because there were some different options that you can get to it, but I bet you there's a pretty cool option.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:04.523)
Yeah. Yeah. So I was doing the little ones, but then I just realized I kept putting those in the laundry room. So I'm like, okay, the big bottle, everybody knows where it is.
Wilhelmina (02:16.555)
Well, can you unscrew it? You can probably get the big bottle, fill up the little bottles and then.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:19.595)
You probably can. I bet you there's even an option for that because there were some different options. I didn't even get to it, but I bet you there's a refill option.
The Shrink Down (02:21.262)
We'll back.
Yes.
Wilhelmina (02:27.509)
I'm a big fan of the refills.
The Shrink Down (02:27.607)
I'm like 99 % sure I've seen a refill option for that stuff, but it's so good. I tell people all the time, it's so good for getting food out. Really good.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:30.305)
a good idea. Yeah, I really like it. Yeah. Yeah. So just reflecting back on faves, and I would highly recommend both of those kind of two different, totally different topics. But will let me know what about you.
Wilhelmina (02:45.003)
Well, we watched a lot of Olympics this weekend and my absolute very favorite Olympic sport to watch is figure skating. So I love watching the individuals figure skate. I love watching pairs. Actually, pairs is my absolute favorite. And I was saying to some of the people I was watching with, was like, I love all entertainment that has to do with figure skating. I was like, if there's a movie with figure skating, if there's a TV show,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:48.502)
and
Teri (02:55.526)
Mm.
The Shrink Down (02:56.91)
It's a good one.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (03:14.307)
Cutting edge.
Wilhelmina (03:14.773)
Cutting from cutting edge back in the day. Yes. And one that I actually watched last year, the year before. and I was actually questioning whether I talked about it on this podcast, but I don't think I did. I might've mentioned it to you guys, but it's called spinning out. It was released in 2020 on Netflix. and it has, I don't know the guy, his name is not familiar to me at all.
Teri (03:25.176)
actually questions.
Teri (03:32.486)
Mm-mm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (03:35.757)
Okay.
Teri (03:39.526)
And it has, I don't know the guy. His name is not clear to me at all.
Wilhelmina (03:43.81)
The girl is Kaia Scodelaria, Lario. She's in like The Gentleman, the TV show The Gentleman, and a couple other, she's actually in a fair amount of things, so if you saw her, I bet you'd recognize her. And it's a little bit, I would say like a grittier Hallmark show. So it's about an Olympic hopeful, and she has had this very significant head injury, so you'd,
you are with her on the other end of it after this has happened. And she's trying to get back into skating and recovery, but she definitely has some like PTSD from the fall. And then she transitions from singles to pairs. And of course, then there's a romantic pairing between the two, right? But what makes it just a little bit different is that January Jones is also in this as her mom and both the mom and
Teri (04:17.862)
and she's trying to get back into skating and recovery.
Wilhelmina (04:43.659)
the skater have bipolar disorder. So it becomes a prominent thing in the show. So the mom kind of when she's stable, she's okay, but when she starts to get off her meds, that's an issue. And then at one point, the skater also decides to get off her meds. And I think about it a lot from like a bipolar standpoint, because they talk pretty openly about how they feel great when they're off their medication.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:12.779)
Yeah, the manic piece. That's very real, yeah, for people.
Wilhelmina (05:13.299)
and the manic piece and she thinks, right, I know. And she feels she skates better, she's more just like with it, but then she, it ends up always causing issues, right? And so you actually witness this process where you're like seeing her be very reserved when she's on her medication and then start to, I actually think sort of realistically sort of like unravel.
The Shrink Down (05:14.434)
Mm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:20.227)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:25.155)
crashes. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:40.227)
That's I was going to ask. Is it a good depiction?
Teri (05:40.246)
It gets little crazy towards the end of the season. But I actually think about that show a lot.
The Shrink Down (05:42.67)
I was gonna ask the same thing of like what?
Wilhelmina (05:42.72)
Yeah, it gets a little crazy towards the end of the season, but I actually, think about that show a lot when I think about Bipolar, and I have recommended it to other people. So it's it's fun for the ice skating, it's fun for the Hallmark romance, but then there is this other piece that I think is interesting. It did end with a bit of a cliffhanger and then never went back.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:00.163)
Yeah.
The Shrink Down (06:10.574)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:10.659)
What was it called again? What's it called? On Netflix, you said? Okay. I feel like I would like that. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (06:11.927)
So that's kind of a bummer. Spinning out. Netflix. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
The Shrink Down (06:17.838)
they call that one? It's got like the two meanings. Double entendre. Yes. Okay. Spinning out.
Teri (06:20.55)
Double entendre.
Wilhelmina (06:22.207)
Yes, yes. So very good.
Terry, what about you?
Teri (06:29.476)
Mine's also a show, I guess, a documentary, movie. John Candy, I Like Me, from just from last year from 2025 on Amazon Prime. Shit, you did it. You know what? I watched it. I knew it. I was like, I think I couldn't, I know. I'm faving a fave.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:40.535)
Didn't I do this? Yeah, it's good. You watched it? So you can just do what I'm doing and say it's like you recommended also. I'm like, this sounds familiar.
Wilhelmina (06:41.803)
You this. Yeah. Yeah.
The Shrink Down (06:44.002)
Hahaha!
Yeah. Okay, good. You're faving the fave. There we go.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:54.413)
So you're faving a fave.
Teri (06:55.524)
I couldn't think of anything today. I watched it a week or two ago, but you know what's cool about watching it now is Catherine O'Hara is featured pretty prominently in it. Yes. And such a, I'm such a huge fan of hers and yeah, her just passed very close, both from Canada. She gave a eulogy at his funeral mass and there's video of her at the mass.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:59.213)
That's good.
The Shrink Down (07:05.293)
in it.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:05.897)
So I watched it prior, yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:12.154)
I love that. Yeah, they were very close.
Teri (07:22.348)
speaking, giving the eulogy. They were super duper tight. So she's featured in interviews and there's flashbacks of her and all the different things they did together. They all came sort of the same origin story in terms of how they came about in the comedy scene. So it's sort of it's about John Candy and Ryan Reynolds, I believe, is one of the producers or something. I am not a fan of his. So I had to put that to the side. I have that's a whole different conversation. I have lots of theories about him and Blake Lively.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:25.763)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:42.627)
producer.
Teri (07:52.102)
But I think, mm-hmm, I know. And he did. yes, yes, he did. Yeah, he did a good job. And so it's sort of an ode to her too, like Catherine O'Hara.
Wilhelmina (07:53.109)
I love your theories.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:54.499)
He's a Canadian though too. So there's those links of the Canadian actors and producers.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:06.115)
Yeah, I saw Christopher, Chris Columbus, that producer that did the movies Home Alone. And he wrote when Catherine O'Hara died, something to the effect of I love the idea that he she and John Candy are like sitting in a bus making or like sitting in the back like that scene from Home Alone, back of the truck making music together or something like that. Yeah, like a really little sweet comment. So yeah. Oh, that's a good time to watch it if you haven't.
Teri (08:11.835)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (08:11.905)
Home Alone.
The Shrink Down (08:18.446)
I saw that.
Wilhelmina (08:22.719)
Back of the truck. Yes.
Teri (08:25.988)
Yeah.
Yeah, so it's good. Okay, I knew it. Yes, so fave and a fave again. How about you Vanessa?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:33.698)
Yeah.
The Shrink Down (08:33.838)
There you go. So my fave today is a documentary. This was actually a recommendation from my friend Heather. She watched it with her daughter. I think her husband watched it too. So they did like the family watched it. I think it's like six episodes. It's on Netflix. It's called Pop Star Academy. So when she said, she was like, they started watching it because their daughter. And she said, I think Everly will like this.
She's like, but it was really good and we enjoyed watching it too. And so we're always looking for things that like she wants to watch and that we can, you know, tolerate sitting through. And so I thought, yeah. So I was like, okay. And she was like, it's a show called Pop Star Academy. It's about that group Cat's Eye. Have you ever heard of them? And I was, yes, I have because when I started watching, when I first watched the K-pop Demon Hunters, it was K-pop.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:05.123)
like actually engage with also.
Wilhelmina (09:19.863)
K-pop Demon Hunters.
The Shrink Down (09:22.634)
and my daughter got into it and I thought I had never heard about K-pop, we actually, BTS, think years ago, BTS, remember that song Butter? If you heard it, you'd be like, it was on the radio 1000 million times, that's K-pop. But I didn't realize that until I started, until we watched K-pop Demon Hunter. So we started listening to Pandora's K-pop radio station just so that we could hear other artists in that genre and Cat's Eye came up. So I said, yeah, I know.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:28.727)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (09:29.797)
Hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:34.102)
Yeah.
The Shrink Down (09:48.153)
who that is because, well, no, I've heard of their music and we'd like some songs. My daughter likes some of their songs. I do too. And so I was like, okay, we'll give it a go. We'll watch it. And so my husband watched it. my gosh, we all got so invested in this show that to the point where Mark had a happy hour and he was like, please don't watch the next episode without me. So it's about these girls who are trying out to be in this pop star group.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:00.675)
Aww, I love that.
Teri (10:01.158)
No.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:08.427)
HAHAHAHA!
The Shrink Down (10:14.734)
And it kind of is a little bit American Idol, kind of. So if you like to watch American Idol or The Voice, it kind of is in that kind of genre. But it dives deeper into the girls' lives. So you get to learn the background on some of them, where they came from. But essentially, they create this academy where these girls train. And I think by the end of the series, they've been training for almost two years. And they are using the K-pop.
Teri (10:35.437)
it's a long time.
The Shrink Down (10:38.392)
kind of method is what they call it. So in Korea, they have this specific method on how they train these like, it's like intense dancing, coaching, singing. I mean, it was, I was like, wow. It was like a machine. Yes. And so it's the same, one of the biggest, K-pop kind of, I guess, companies that, know, where these K-pop, musicians come out of who joined with a U S based group and to, come up with this concept of picking these girls from like all over the world. And so.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:49.099)
a machine. Wow.
The Shrink Down (11:08.47)
out of the 20 that they kind of are in this documentary, they narrow it down to like the final six. So you get to watch them train. You start rooting for some of these girls because you're like, my gosh, she's working so hard. She's so sweet. So it was just like we're all invested. At one point I was like tearing up because I was like, my gosh, that poor girl. So it's cute because it's more, it sounds a little bit maybe silly because it's like a pop star, but it's actually really good. was so interesting, fascinating to like learn behind the scenes of like the K-pop world. yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:16.365)
Sure.
Wilhelmina (11:29.333)
No.
Teri (11:32.592)
There's a lot of money in that scene.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:35.717)
yeah.
The Shrink Down (11:35.855)
Oh, they talked about marketing. I mean, it was really interesting. And I thought I really liked too, because I think when you may think of girls, a few of them were like 17, 16, but most of them were like between 18 and like 21. So there's like a range you would think like a lot of cattiness, a lot of drama. And it really wasn't. So it was really also, I think, nice to see. And how much of that was like producer induced? I don't know. But it seemed like based on the
Teri (11:37.369)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:38.914)
Let's see.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:56.631)
Yeah.
The Shrink Down (12:04.46)
the documentary that these girls got along. They were very supportive of each other. There was a little bit of drama, but it wasn't like cattiness kind of drama. So it was good. I thought that was good too for, you know, my daughter to see, girls getting along, girls, you know, encouraging each other. Their mentor was, I mean, all these people who worked with these girls were like just so endearing and it was just really good. So if you're looking for like a quick documentary, something kind of just...
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:12.418)
Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:20.333)
Yeah.
The Shrink Down (12:30.894)
you know, kind of fun to watch. It was interesting. It's called Pop Star Academy. It's about the Cat's Eye forming of the Cat's Eye group and it's on Netflix and it's not new. was from 2024, but it was good. We were all invested. We had our favorites by the end. So it was good fun.
Wilhelmina (12:39.319)
Love it.
Teri (12:43.425)
good.
Wilhelmina (12:44.263)
I love that.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:44.355)
Interesting. Didn't they do like the Gap commercial or something and they were all dancing. It was like a big deal last year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
The Shrink Down (12:51.342)
Yes, they were in, yep, and they were nominated for Grammy and they performed at the Grammy. The song they performed is not one of my, ones that I really like, Everly really likes it, it's not one of my favorites, but yes, they were, they got nominated for a Grammy and they were, they performed this year at the Grammy. So, but yes, Cat's Eye, Pop Star Academy. It was good. It was a fun watch.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:59.394)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (13:07.277)
fun. can tell we're all hunkering down right now and watching a lot of television. I know, everywhere.
Wilhelmina (13:11.072)
I
Teri (13:11.43)
Yeah, I know. I know.
The Shrink Down (13:12.174)
I mean, when it's like minus how much single digits, you you kind of don't want to go anywhere. So all right. So today we're going to be talking about grit. I thought it'd be a good idea to just talk a little bit about the like where this concept came from. And in modern psychology, this concept was coined by Angela Duckworth. And I hadn't heard of her, but she wrote a book.
Teri (13:18.905)
I know.
The Shrink Down (13:37.145)
But she coined this term and defined grit as having kind of two core components to it. So perseverance and passion. So those were kind of the two main themes that came out of this. She created a questionnaire. So it's a 12 item questionnaire. So if anybody is curious about how much grit they have, can just Google it. You can come up with it. My recommendation would be don't look at the scoring because it's like the second page. So take it honestly, answer it honestly, and then you can score yourself up to see how much grit you have.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (13:52.12)
Yeah.
Teri (13:56.974)
My recommendation is don't look at the scoring. Take it honestly, answer it honestly, then can sort yourself up.
Wilhelmina (14:07.031)
You
The Shrink Down (14:07.438)
But this is such a good topic, I think, because we hear this a lot. Terry is the one who mentioned this as a topic for us more like, yeah, we hear this term. So how are we seeing this term kind of being tossed around? How can we help people create or increase their grit? Because I think that that's one of the things that we talk a lot about, people, young ones these days don't seem to have a lot of grit. And then is it possible to have too much grit?
Teri (14:34.55)
I think this is such a timely topic given a few things happening in the zeitgeist. one is Lindsey Vonn, the Olympic skier, injured herself pretty severely, right? Yeah, broke her leg. I think as of this recording, she had been recovered. I mean, I don't
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:44.973)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (14:48.705)
broker leg.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:49.015)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:53.901)
Well, after she had busted her ACL. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (14:55.844)
Yeah, after she tornary cell was in recovery and obviously any Olympians that were watching for watching the Olympics now, I would assume possess a fair amount of grit. And again, this has become this personality trait that psychologists like Angela Duckworth have been researching and there's some good empirical support for it. There's comparisons of grit compared to IQ compared to talent. And can you dissect those as different variables and what are the predictive factors related to each of those?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (15:11.117)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (15:18.701)
Yeah.
Teri (15:24.942)
And so I think we have people like Olympians, like Lindsey Vonn, like, wow, she must, we assume at face value, well, she must have a lot of grit. And then the other person I'm thinking of is the Superbowl was just last night and the Seattle Seahawks won and their quarterback had been on multiple different teams until, what's his name again? Lauren, do you know? That's it. So my kids would be like, mom, yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (15:45.26)
Yeah.
Yeah, five and eight years.
Teri (15:52.624)
Five different teams in eight years finally had a Super Bowl win last night. So obviously if you think about his pathway to success and all the different teams and the trades and different coaches he's had to deal with and teammates, et cetera, one could assume that he's an athlete who also possesses a lot of grit. But I think about grit from an athleticism standpoint. I talk about grit in my practice with academics, with kids.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (16:19.939)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (16:20.218)
So for kids who have dyslexia or ADHD or other types of neurodivergences or learning differences, how much grit do they possess in order to keep that effort sustained plays a large role. And I've actually used the 12 item grit scale that Vanessa mentioned. I actually have teenagers and young adults complete that sometimes just more qualitatively as part of my evaluation, because it's so quick. I can just give it to them because I do think when you have kids, especially kids who have high IQ,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (16:42.871)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (16:50.328)
And low grit, that can be a tricky combo in the classroom setting.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (16:50.467)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 100%. I would second that, that talking with parents in feedback sessions, particularly following an evaluation, and I have had parents that are disappointed in their child's IQ, and it's not an IQ I'm concerned about. Like a very solid, average, well-developed intellectual profile, and you've had these parents that are, they'll say things like, I'm surprised. I thought they were brighter than that. And it's like,
Wilhelmina (16:53.868)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (17:10.042)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (17:20.043)
Having that conversation in that moment becomes so important about the difference between, this is part of the reason Angela Duckworth became so, I mean, famous in the world of research, but she did a Ted talk, and this was probably like 10 years ago, but that has been going, that Ted talk is still widely regarded because she really focused in on,
Wilhelmina (17:33.717)
Yes. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (17:43.843)
that grit is a stronger predictor of success than IQ. And so people picking up sound bites of that and then we are using this from a psychological standpoint in our practices to just help people understand that it IQ is certainly nice in terms of having or being able to recognize strengths that you or a child might have, but it's not the predictor of success. And so to Terry's point, being able to talk
Teri (18:09.04)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (18:12.651)
to parents in particular about IQ is something that's fixed. There's not a whole lot we can do about that, but guess what we can do? We can work on your child's grit, their resilience, their ability to come back from failure. And often that's something that people are overlooking in terms of how they're, mean, you know, she's got all of these studies. It's a better predictor than academic achievement. She's really gone more recently on this route of kind of,
encouraging parents, families, educators to not look at these high achieving or taking all of these AP classes, high achieving classes, depending on how you honors AP exactly, because it's just not as good of a predictor at how your child is going to succeed going forward as their ability to kind of bounce back from failures and things of that nature. So I think it's a really good concept to introduce
Teri (18:50.956)
Honors, AP, yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (19:09.091)
people to because then there's so much more behind it that you can really work on like you know to Terry's point an individual work you can you know work with a young adult or a teenager on okay let's figure out you know ways to build that characteristic.
Wilhelmina (19:22.274)
Well, and like what you're really.
The Shrink Down (19:22.724)
Yeah, they talk about.
Wilhelmina (19:26.081)
What we're really talking about is like a growth mindset, right? So like you start out here and you do things, try things, and when you fail, then you try again. And failure is actually part of that growth. And so you really can't increase your grit without trying and failing. And so I think we look at
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (19:28.417)
Yeah, versus fixed. Yeah.
Teri (19:28.505)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (19:55.316)
know, kids today, we've talked about this on this podcast and the anxiety rates. And I would imagine that we, I mean, there haven't been any studies that I know of, but like, I'd be curious to look at the grit of adolescents today, young adults today, compared to past generations, because with so much anxiety, often you don't want to do something you're not going to, that you're going to fail at. And so, and then you have these parents that are
pushing their kids into things and lanes that they're already good at. And are we creating this generation of kids without as much grit, a lack of grit? Yeah.
The Shrink Down (20:32.258)
Black.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (20:34.723)
100%.
Teri (20:35.49)
There's two things that I think about when I, both as a parent, think about parenting in the community that I live in and know, fellow parents, etc. And then what I see at my practice.
And there's two things that strike me that are the antithesis to grit, where I'm sort of like, gosh, I feel like you're moving backwards and you're not, you're actually decreasing their effort and their likelihood. And one of those is what you guys are speaking to is still being so outcome achievement oriented, grades, GPA, how many AP classes, I think.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (20:59.779)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (21:03.619)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (21:10.369)
Yeah. Yep.
Teri (21:15.8)
I naively thought, I wasn't quite as aware until I became a parent myself that parents are still so focused on grades. And I'm not saying this to sound, you know, higher than, I don't really check my kids' report cards. Yes, they bring them home and I'm like, today was report card day. I look at it, I sign it, we don't discuss it. We don't talk about it. They can look, I want them to look at it, to have ownership of it so they know what their grades are.
Wilhelmina (21:31.233)
Me neither.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (21:32.022)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (21:43.223)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (21:45.86)
and they look because they're their grades, they're not my grades. And it's not a reflection of me as a parent. And so they get their grades, they go about their business. But the amount of parents that still in modern times who are so focused on grades is shocking to me that they feel like it's a marker. Yes, paying their kids for A's, celebrating report cards. Like this goes.
The Shrink Down (21:46.04)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (22:04.035)
paying their kids for A's and... Mm-hmm.
The Shrink Down (22:10.71)
My parent used to pay me for my ace. Yeah. What I look at, so Everly doesn't have grades yet. She just has like satisfactory or whatever at this point. But what I look at is I'm reading the comments because I want to get a better sense of what is my kid doing with her friends? Yeah, like the comments is what I want to hear. Is she a nice kid? Does she get along with the other kids?
Teri (22:14.406)
I got my ears pierced in fourth grade because I got straight A's that year. And that sticks out to me.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (22:20.995)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (22:30.338)
Yeah.
Teri (22:32.986)
The comments, the comments matter more. Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (22:37.815)
Yep. Yep.
The Shrink Down (22:39.97)
that and you know, when we meet for these parent teacher conferences, my first question is like, you know, tell me about her socially. Like, is she getting along with, you know, the other kids? Like, is she making friends? Like, that is kind of my priority at this point with her is, you know, like, how is she, you know, how is she making friends? And, you know, how is she feeling in the classroom is really my concern at this point with her and not so much her grades. And it's funny, because I feel like when I have parents come in and they all say this, and I, but then I wonder,
Teri (23:01.902)
And.
The Shrink Down (23:08.43)
they'll like, I don't care about the grades. They say that, right? They all do. So I just, then I'm always like, and the kids like so anxious and so nervous about their grades. so I wonder if there's, even if you're not saying it explicitly to your child, if there is some kind of just implicate, like you're implying that that's important in some way. And so being mindful of that, maybe you're not saying like you have to get straight A's, but maybe you're sending that message without even realizing it.
Teri (23:11.556)
Mm-mm. They do. They do.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (23:12.631)
Right, right, right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (23:36.611)
But I think there's a trickle down effect too. And it's not totally dissimilar to the conversation that we were having about the NIL money in sports in that it comes from somewhere, right? So even well-meaning parents, I think get caught up in this idea. And if again, trickle down. So you are what grade is Everly in third? Yeah. Okay. So you're at a grade level where there's not yet grades. We're still doing like the satisfactory or the developing or secure like all those different like acronyms.
The Shrink Down (23:48.174)
Mm-hmm.
The Shrink Down (23:52.526)
Third.
The Shrink Down (23:59.523)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (24:03.895)
but at some point they're getting grades. And then at some point they're getting extra points for being in the honors or the AP classes. so you can see where is it starting, this idea that you have to be in all of these advanced placement classes in order to get into that higher level of education. And so I can see where well-meaning parents feel that pressure as, again, as a parent and then seeing it from, to your point, in the office, we see it a little bit differently.
Teri (24:06.406)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (24:33.603)
because it's coming from somewhere and we're all gonna be, you know, we're all gonna experience that of like, they tested so well, they could be an advanced, blah, blah, blah. And then what do you do? And again, this is not the only aspect of grit, but to Terry's point, when we all become achievement oriented for us in this age and stage of life, it's very much that academic piece. But I mean, it crosses all.
different areas of functioning for kids when it's achievement as the goal, then we lose a really important part of the process. But it's not just us doing it as parents. There's a whole system.
Teri (25:11.312)
But the other...
Teri (25:15.664)
But the other, yeah.
The Shrink Down (25:15.724)
Yeah, I mean, even the kids, the kids put pressure on each other. Like when I talk to lot of teens, they're, what I'm getting out of what they're saying is that the other, peers, like, so then it becomes this, you know, the snowball effect, right? So they're all feeding off each other's anxiety about like, how many AP classes am I taking and how many, so that's also, I think, contributing to it.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (25:27.767)
Hmm, self-fulfillment, yeah.
Teri (25:33.158)
If they're in, yeah, if they're in that tier. And I would say though, also with the achievement, the second piece to it is parents not getting comfortable with their kids having failure. And what I see parents doing is either saving them from failure, what I'm rescuing them, but what I'm also seeing is them not even creating opportunities for them to fail. They'll go, he hasn't done sports yet because I don't know what he likes.
Wilhelmina (25:45.43)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (25:46.241)
Yeah.
The Shrink Down (25:49.442)
rescue, yeah.
Wilhelmina (25:56.085)
That's it.
Teri (25:59.152)
He's not doing art classes, because I don't know if he'll like art or not. I'm going to sign him up, but I don't know if he'll really go. if it was up, yes, if it was up to your seven, eight or nine year old, which sport they were going to play, they can't make informed choices. That's where parents can come in and say, why don't you try this? And if you don't like it, you're going to finish the season and then you can discontinue. But I think parents are, it's very child led what they think kids will and will not do because they're afraid to fail.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:05.763)
keeping them safe and secure.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:20.011)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (26:28.243)
And what I would add to that is parents checking the grades, so back to the grades, and well into high school, and micromanaging. You haven't turned in this assignment, you haven't done this, you haven't done that. I tell parents all the time, I'm like, why are you, so, well, if they don't turn in these assignments and this, I'm like, okay. And then,
The Shrink Down (26:52.366)
called a natural compliment.
Wilhelmina (26:53.639)
Literally, I will be talking to parents of juniors and seniors and they're like, I'm just really worried how they're going to do in college because the kid has, yes, I'm like, you absolutely should be because if the kid is only turning in stuff and getting extra credit because you have intervened, whether it's intervening with the teachers, intervening with your child, it's you need to let them, if they fail a class, they fail a class. And then we get to see what happens when they fail a class or
Teri (26:54.65)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:58.136)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (27:01.05)
You should be.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:05.187)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (27:23.265)
get a bad grade or whatever.
Teri (27:25.232)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:25.399)
You're not giving them that opportunity for discomfort.
Wilhelmina (27:28.445)
Right. And, you know, it reminds me of working with people with eating disorders and when they used to like, people would be checking their weight all of the time, like multiple times a day. And I was sort of like, okay, so what if you just checked your weight once a week, once a month? Like, you're going to get the general trend, but if you keep checking it all of the time, you're actually, nothing good is coming of that.
Teri (27:28.516)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (27:57.58)
Like you're seeing these like little changes and then you're attaching what you ate to meaning to the change versus like looking back at the bigger picture and looking at that. And I feel like parents need to check in. Yeah, check in at the end of the semester or the quarter, whatever. But if you're in the weeds with them, you're not doing them any favors.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (28:02.389)
Meaning. Yeah.
Teri (28:20.538)
So how do we, so what do we know? What does the research say? How do we make our kids grittier? Buy them cigarettes. No, I'm just kidding. I said buy them cigarettes. They can walk around smoking cigarettes like people did when we were younger. No, I'm just kidding. Different kind of grit.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (28:27.885)
So, Terry, you talked about... They'll be real gritty. One of the things you mentioned, Terry, in terms of trying different things, right? And not being afraid of failure and not being afraid of not liking it. One of the things Angela Duckworth talks about in her research is, don't put on a bad day. I love that phrase.
The Shrink Down (28:30.126)
Cigarettes.
Wilhelmina (28:31.2)
What'd say?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (28:56.643)
Don't quit on a bad day. Right. And so the idea being is like, you can find out you're not good at something or you don't like something, but you're going to see it through because there's so much you learn from actually completing that task, whether it's, okay, you know, turns out I don't love gymnastics. Okay. We're going to finish the session and then you can try something different. Um, because if you allow them to quit the second they don't feel like it, or this was
Teri (29:16.442)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:22.669)
hard or, you know, I didn't, felt uncomfortable. I didn't like it. I, you know, I fell down and I didn't do the thing that everybody else did. Then they're going to learn that that's the safety net. And, and so the opposite of that to, Terry's question to build that grit is to not allow them to quit on the bad day.
The Shrink Down (29:23.8)
They don't like it.
Wilhelmina (29:42.296)
Yeah, this summer, Griff, or this was the summer, a couple summers ago when Griffin was first learning to bike without training wheels and was one of our longer bike rides. We were coming back and he fell and he of course got scared, scraped up his knee. And then the next day we actually were like, let's go for a bike ride. And he was like, I don't want to do it. And we're like, why? He was like, because, you know, I'm scared or whatever.
Teri (29:53.936)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (30:10.485)
I feel like maybe that day we were like, fine, but it was not long after that. We're like, let's get back on this bike. We're like, you're, if you go for the rest of the summer and don't get back on the bike, all you're going to remember is the fall. We need to get you back up there so that you remember, wait, biking is fun. And I only felt that one time, but for the most part.
Teri (30:17.584)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:22.839)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:30.849)
Yeah, I have 10 other instances of great bike rides with my family.
Teri (30:33.766)
All right. A phrase that I love to use with kids, my kids, all kids, I actually said it to a kid I was evaluated in my waiting room last week and the parents said that he's been saying it at home. And it's so simple is you can't be brave unless you're scared. And that's a package deal, right? You can't develop bravery unless you experience anxiety or fear or worry about getting hurt or failing. So you can't be brave unless you're scared. And it's a quick one-liner.
Wilhelmina (30:34.463)
Right. Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:49.687)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (30:49.932)
I like that.
The Shrink Down (30:50.156)
Yeah.
Teri (31:01.958)
that I think really resonates with kids. I think of all ages and even adults. So I think that's just about creating more of those exposure opportunities for your kids to have to do it again. I also like, and the research, this comes more from the research, is pointing out when they thought something was gonna go poorly and then it didn't. So pointing out when they thought something wasn't gonna work out or it wasn't gonna go well after the fact, obviously, not like a ha-ha, told you so. But hey, you maybe the next day or two.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:06.808)
Mm-hmm.
The Shrink Down (31:21.518)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (31:21.643)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:22.007)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:27.935)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (31:31.27)
But hey, I know you really didn't want to do that thing or whatever. You felt like it was going be really hard. Be like, I don't know. What do you think? From what I saw, it didn't seem like it was that bad. But you know, what did you think?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:37.922)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (31:43.018)
Another thing is to let your kids get frustrated. And this one I struggle with because Griffin gets frustrated very easily as do I. So I see myself in him and he loves to build these like models and some of them have really, really small pieces that you have to like push in really hard, but they're tiny pieces and he will start to like lose his shit. it...
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:45.6)
Mm-hmm.
The Shrink Down (31:52.27)
Mm.
Wilhelmina (32:09.815)
I am quick to come in there to be like, oh, let me see if I can help. And then often lose it myself. But really good modeling. Owen is much better about being like, you got this bud. He got him something that he could lean the piece up against, a piece of wood. And then he's like, you just got to keep going at it. And he is much better at stepping back.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:16.963)
You
Teri (32:17.158)
Really?
The Shrink Down (32:17.582)
you
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:20.419)
Great.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:26.401)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (32:37.641)
allowing him, calming him down and then letting him do it and sort of getting him back in there with trying it instead of like you trying to do it for them or fix it. Let a kid be frustrated with the process because again, the process is the journey. It's not the end result.
Teri (32:56.934)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:59.241)
One of the things that I really like, the phrase that we use at home, as well as that I use in my practice is reframing their discomfort. So anxiety just means you care about this thing. Like, so if you're feeling anxious about something or you're feeling frustrated about something, like you care, you wanna figure it out, you wanna do well, you care about what's gonna happen next. And so sort of reframing the discomfort because I think so often,
Teri (33:10.47)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (33:25.397)
One of the things that I have been concerned about that I have observed in my practice, and I know we've all talked about it, is this, and we've been sort of talking about it today, but this idea of just like totally protecting kids from every feeling they experience that they might label in a negative way. And so just reframing it of like, so yeah, so you're anxious and two things can be true. I'm anxious and I'm gonna do this thing.
Teri (33:47.766)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (33:51.575)
It's just a reframing of it as a way to sort of empower, this is what's teaching my resilience, my grit here.
Teri (34:00.198)
Mm-hmm.
The Shrink Down (34:02.712)
When you brought, I was gonna say, when you brought up this topic, was trying to figure out like, how does this differ from resilience? Because I think the two terms are very similar. And so I read this thing and I was like, such a good way to frame this, that grit is the engine that moves you towards your goal. And that your resilience is the oil that keeps the engine running. it says, there can be a conflict between the two. And I think this goes back to, can you have too much grit?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:02.723)
What are the other things? I'll go ahead.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:10.231)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (34:14.406)
Wilhelmina (34:23.595)
Mm, I like that.
The Shrink Down (34:30.698)
High grit can actually lead to like reduced resilience. So they called it like blind persistence. And so they gave a good example. So if you have an athlete who gets injured and There you go, and the doctor says You can't play and the person says i'm gonna play anyway That's a problem now if Right, so that's that's where it becomes your grit becomes a problem, right? Like you don't realize that you are going to have a negative outcome by doing this versus
Wilhelmina (34:39.991)
Hmm, Lindsey Vonn. What the Rats.
Teri (34:43.206)
The doctor says you can't play and the doctor says I'm going to play anyway. That's the problem. Now if you play, that's where becomes your greatest problem, right? You don't realize that you're performing.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:49.431)
Yeah, CTE.
Wilhelmina (34:50.827)
Yes. Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:55.415)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:59.907)
Yeah.
The Shrink Down (35:00.662)
someone where, you know, maybe they're injured, but the doctor says, you're okay, and you're in pain still, but the doctor says, you can still play safely. And so you say, even though I'm in pain, I know that I am cleared to do this, I'm not gonna cause any more significant, I'm gonna just like hustle through this, even though I'm in pain, because I know there's not gonna be further injury to me. That's a good way of having grit and getting you through it. So I thought that was such a good.
Teri (35:01.254)
where there may be an injury but the doctor says you're okay and you're pain so but the doctor said you can still play safely and if you say I'm in pain and I know that I am cleared to do this going cause any more significant I'm going to just hustle through this even though I'm in pain because I know there's not going to be further injuries to me that is a good way of having the risk of getting through it so I have a such a way to define having the problem
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:26.627)
That's interesting.
The Shrink Down (35:27.764)
way to define having perhaps too much grit versus how the resilience plays in this role, right? Like I'm in pain, but I'm still going to get through this safely versus I'm being told I should not do this. This is going to cause further damage, but I don't care. I'm going to continue to do it. That can be kind of a negative way where the grit gets into play.
Teri (35:48.435)
I think that's such an important concept that you just described. What is that term again? Blind resilience? What's it called?
The Shrink Down (35:54.467)
Yes, blind persistence. Blind persistence. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's like hybrid. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:54.743)
Yeah, I like that.
Teri (35:56.122)
blind persistence. So when we, when we, okay, when we introduced this topic, Lindsey Vaughn and her being in the news sort of spurred it. And one of Wilhelmina's responses to our group text thread was she went into the Olympics, clearly injured, recovering from this ACL injury. Why would she do that? Is that blind persistence? I wonder when it comes to that level, what I said to them is I wonder how many people are on her payroll.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (36:03.171)
Hmm.
The Shrink Down (36:04.664)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (36:22.99)
in terms of how many people's salaries is she funding with her career? Probably 10, give or take, maybe, trainers, agents, you know, maybe not 10, but who knows? But the average Olympic athlete at her level probably has several people who their full-time salary is paid for by Lindsey Vonn. So I don't think it's all about money all the time, even though sometimes it seems like that, but I do wonder if sometimes at her level,
Wilhelmina (36:23.083)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (36:28.886)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (36:50.904)
if that blind persistence is completely motivated by wanting to have athletic success, or if there's also lot of monetary gain and that pressure pushing on her from outside people.
The Shrink Down (37:04.27)
Yeah, the key there is, right. I was just gonna say, the key there is your wellbeing. if it's going to impede your wellbeing, then you can't follow through with it. So you're right. I think that there are probably situations where, because of money or because of like fame or whatever, where they don't think about their wellbeing and that's where it becomes an issue, is that if it starts to impact your wellbeing, then you should not be persisting through this situation.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (37:04.491)
Or is it, go ahead.
Teri (37:09.647)
Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (37:31.841)
And it's interesting, we don't know to Vanessa's example, we don't know if a doctor said, this is going to hurt, but you're not going to injure it any further, the ACL specifically. So you might as well, but just so you know, it's going to hurt and you're not going to do anything, any further damage. And so in, in her frame of mind, that might've been then, well, then I'm going to demonstrate the grit that I have and compete one last time or whatever it was.
The Shrink Down (37:33.996)
Get low down.
The Shrink Down (37:39.168)
Exactly. Right. Yeah.
The Shrink Down (37:57.389)
And maybe because of all those reasons Harry said, right? Like I've gotten the clearance and I have these people relying on me, so I'm just gonna do it. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:02.699)
Yeah, so there can be other things that then further influence it, even if it didn't start off as blind persistence.
The Shrink Down (38:09.41)
Yeah, yeah.
Teri (38:09.794)
And that and that I didn't come up with that idea. I mean, I follow a lot of basketball and basketball players, tear and ruin their ACLs on the regular. Right. And they spend seasons recovering and come back. And they I've seen basketball players in interviews make comments going, I have mouths to feed. I have X, Y and Z. So should I keep playing? I don't know. But a lot of people need to pay their bills.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:28.515)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
The Shrink Down (38:28.718)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:34.967)
But in those instances, and I think that with, do not know what Lindsey Vonn was told by her doctors, although I feel like I have had multiple friends who have torn their ACLs and I can't imagine a doctor being like, your ACL is completely torn. What? No, you are fine. Like, feel like that doesn't feel like something a doctor would say. It might be like, well, it literally is torn, so you can't.
Teri (38:39.78)
Right. We don't know her financial background.
Teri (39:01.872)
How long ago did she injure it? Because basketball players take a...
Wilhelmina (39:04.147)
nine days, nine days or a week. Yeah, I mean, no, this is not this is not literally she needed surgery. But and so someone actually I saw something that was like, yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (39:05.643)
A week before. No, yeah, it was ruptured. Yeah.
Teri (39:07.558)
Teri (39:17.67)
Do you know the difference money-wise though, if she was not to compete?
Wilhelmina (39:21.845)
Right. Well, it probably was to your point, Terry, if she even crosses that starting line, she gets paid X amount of money.
Teri (39:23.512)
sponsorships.
Teri (39:29.242)
the spot she honors. She honors her sponsorships.
The Shrink Down (39:31.47)
But then, but I mean, on the flip side of that, what if she is so injured now, she's never gonna, she's never going to compete again? Was it worth it?
Wilhelmina (39:36.091)
I agree. Yep. She's just completely fucked up her leg.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (39:36.279)
That's what I think. Yeah.
Teri (39:40.278)
But it could be worth it.
The Shrink Down (39:40.876)
Yeah, so I mean, think that has to play, right? Am I going to do this for this one moment in time, knowing that I may never be able to again? Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (39:43.276)
No,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (39:48.311)
That's what I think. Not like the second injury, the broken leg. I think what Vanessa said, which is she knew it was ruptured. They gave her the I think she actually got the clear because she was going like, this is it. I might as well go down the mountain and see what I can do. And she had done a practice run successfully the day before. So, yeah. So I do think I mean, I love this idea of this blind persistence.
The Shrink Down (40:02.732)
Yeah, she thought.
Wilhelmina (40:07.873)
Two, two different plastic practice runs.
Teri (40:09.846)
okay.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (40:17.475)
And it's interesting because I could see somebody arguing that's what they're doing when they're achievement oriented for academics. Like I could, we've seen those people that are coming to us for anxiety disorders or things like that, right? But Vanessa, what did you say earlier? If it impacts their wellbeing though, that's where it's...
Teri (40:24.826)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
The Shrink Down (40:41.346)
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (40:42.497)
Right, which is like our general, if it's impacting their functioning, that's always what we look at when we are looking at diagnosis of any kind of disorder is, is it impacting their functioning? So if it's impacting their wellbeing, then we can no longer call it grit.
Teri (40:42.779)
which is.
Teri (40:47.664)
but it's so subjective.
The Shrink Down (40:56.59)
Yeah. I mean, I think something like an injury is like a very clear example, right? Like a doctor tells you, you can't. So I do think it gets a little gray in other situations where there you go. where you can't, there isn't this like 100 % way to define that. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (40:57.077)
Well, and here's the thing.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:02.561)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Teri (41:02.938)
Yes.
Teri (41:07.27)
Right. The teenager telling you it's not impacting. Yeah. The teenager going, I'm fine. I can take my AP classes. I'm fine. Well, because it's so subjective. How do we, that's self-report. For many times it's self-report or maybe that's in contrast of observer reports. Well, okay. I know you're saying you're fine, but you don't seem fine. You seem like you're really struggling. And then there's that tension there between what you are reporting you're experiencing.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:07.341)
But like anxiety.
Teri (41:34.884)
in terms of your wellbeing being impacted versus what others think.
Wilhelmina (41:38.944)
You know, one of the things that Angela Duckworth talked about, I think she actually talked about this in her podcast around grit, was she was like, we need to teach kids, people that the journey of what they're on is a marathon, not a sprint. So if you are looking at school and like, it's fine, it's fine. was like, you really like, look at your study habits, not for this.
The Shrink Down (41:55.907)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (42:04.767)
week or this month, but like look at it big picture. What do you need to do? You probably need to get regular sleep. You need to get, know, have a calendar. think one of the things she talks about is like routines and being able to like set things up so that you don't have to be putting all of this energy into the go, go, go, go, go. Grit is actually a marathon. It's not the like...
put all your power into this moment, is spread it out and keep standing back up, keep getting back up. So to like Lindsey Vonn's case or an athlete, it would be, okay, you're out for this one. And I get Olympics, I get it. But like you're out for this one. Now we heal, now we recover, we do PT. then, Terry, like your basketball players, then we get back on the court. That is what that looks like. Not, I don't know, that's just.
Teri (42:55.642)
You sure?
The Shrink Down (43:01.134)
Well, unless she's this was her last like she knew in her mind like this is my last time I'm going to do this. So I'm just I'm going out in a blaze of glory. Literally.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (43:03.999)
Could have been it. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (43:04.009)
This was her swan song. This was for sure her swan song.
Teri (43:06.694)
Yeah.
Teri (43:10.95)
I... helicoptered. Right?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (43:11.074)
Right?
Wilhelmina (43:11.351)
And then she did over the crowds. Yes. Well, and I want to be like, can we interview her when she is 80? I want to know what her knees feel like. Like I like I think about all of the inks. Well, one of them is already.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (43:15.755)
Yes, you know.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (43:22.287)
they're not going to be hers. They're going to be all mechanics.
Teri (43:22.438)
I don't think you want to ask. think anyone, no one in their 80s has good knees.
The Shrink Down (43:23.49)
Yeah.
The Shrink Down (43:27.554)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (43:28.759)
Well, right, but I sort of think like some of that, like, well, this is it. I'm like, she's 40, like 41. I was like, she still has like half her life to live and she's gonna be potentially in pain for half her life. like the Olympics, like, I don't know. Yeah, it's like one of those like, where's the line? Who gets to define where the line is? Like, I don't get to define it. Lindsay gets to define her line. And it was the starting line. And then 13 seconds later, the air.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (43:47.373)
Push pull.
Teri (43:55.364)
Right. And I bet her sponsors, I bet her contract was a much bigger payday if she crossed that threshold. And I could see her being like one million. Off I go. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (43:55.843)
Right.
Wilhelmina (44:03.252)
Absolutely. All she needed to do is
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (44:04.323)
course.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (44:09.992)
I was thinking about ways to, when we were talking about ways to sort of increase this sort of grit. And one of the things that we know in the research is teaching delay of gratification. Right? So not the end. What's that?
Teri (44:22.362)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (44:22.519)
Huge. Huge.
The Shrink Down (44:23.086)
Yeah, big one. Mm-hmm. I said that's a big part of this, having great, because it's the long-term journey.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (44:28.083)
yeah. Yeah. And how do you teach that in small ways, especially now with everything being at people's kids fingertips, right? AI, we've been talking about things like that. And I always think about the marshmallow test. We all know that from, yeah, I mean, it's been on things like, you know, 2020 and stuff like that. So everybody kind of knows it in pop culture, but it's definitely like like a classic psychological experience.
Teri (44:30.329)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (44:37.988)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (44:43.455)
Yes, I was just gonna bring that up.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (44:53.717)
experiment of how long can that kid wait for the marshmallow and if the examiner walks out of the room and it comes back and it's still there you get two marshmallows whatever it is. I was thinking about that now with my kids watching live television and sitting through commercials. It's like what a good way to teach them delayed gratification because they're so used to streaming services now.
Wilhelmina (45:06.519)
Yep.
Teri (45:06.886)
Hmm.
Teri (45:12.386)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (45:17.581)
that if we're watching something live that they have to actually sit through the commercials, it's like a really good exercise in like, you gotta wait to see what happens next in this program or whatever it is. And it's, only have to wait two minutes. So it's like a nice small way, unfortunately.
Teri (45:31.908)
That's a good simple way.
The Shrink Down (45:32.739)
Our new rule in our house, so our new rule piggybacking off that Lauren, is that if you watch one episode of something, you have to watch something, a totally different show. You are not allowed in my house anymore to just go one, yes. That's for the child. I mean, if you're an adult, you do whatever you want with your brain for the child. Because I realized some of these shows are.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (45:44.942)
no more binging.
Wilhelmina (45:44.983)
Yeah.
Teri (45:46.086)
that's better for your brain. That's much better. That's much better for your brain. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (45:48.257)
We are big bingers.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (45:49.985)
I like that.
The Shrink Down (45:57.333)
actually, because there's no commercials, are kind of short. And so you'd be like, well, I have an hour. I get my hour of screen time. And it would just be like rapid fire, like these. Because I was like, why are we watching so many? Because without commercials, they're like 20 minutes long. Yeah, that's really short. But even other shows, found, they're not even a full 30 minutes. So I was thinking, this feels like YouTube videos, which we banned from our house forever ago. So now it's like, you can still watch TV, but you have to watch a different show.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:00.269)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:00.664)
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:02.755)
There's three shows,
Wilhelmina (46:09.313)
Bluey is short. Bluey is very short. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:09.749)
Yeah.
Teri (46:10.828)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:14.837)
No, no to your point. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:20.833)
Right, right.
Teri (46:21.446)
and
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:24.811)
Long format programming. Yes.
The Shrink Down (46:26.048)
You have to wait. it's like when we were kids, you watched once a week, your show came on, you know? I'm not even making her wait a week. I'm just like, you can wait till tomorrow to watch episode two, watch something else. So she has a couple things that she's watching simultaneously because she's not allowed to keep watching to the next one. So we did that. It's great. Delay gratification.
Teri (46:27.023)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:29.975)
Right. Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:30.007)
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:42.305)
Yeah. Yeah. But it's a good, it's crazy that we have to now teach it, but it's a good way of, it's a very natural way for a parent to be able to teach it of like, no, like we're not fast forwarding or no, you can watch one and then you have to wait for the next one to come out, right? Which is tomorrow or whatever. Yeah.
Teri (46:43.578)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (46:44.927)
Meanwhile.
Teri (46:50.49)
Mm-hmm.
The Shrink Down (46:59.49)
Yeah. Yeah. So we started doing that.
Wilhelmina (47:01.557)
Meanwhile, I'm watching Tell Me Lies on Hulu and I'm like, God damn these commercials and then I upgrade it so it is. So there's no commercials. I'm already old enough. I got my grip. I got my grip. I have limited time. I don't want to waste it on commercials. That's where I'm at.
Teri (47:09.413)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:10.243)
Now, you have a fully formed brain you're allowed to, but it's terrible for children.
The Shrink Down (47:13.546)
Yeah, you can do it every longer.
Teri (47:14.446)
Yes, you're done. Yeah, yes. We don't care about your brain anymore. You're fine. We do. You know what I mean.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:23.874)
Alright.
Wilhelmina (47:25.567)
I keep thinking about that marshmallow experiment though. I think about that with my kids and I just laughed myself because I think if you had Maddie in one room, she would have literally a tower of marshmallows. She would just be like, I'll wait. Meanwhile, Griffin would have none. He'd be like.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:28.285)
Yeah, I'd love. Yes.
Teri (47:38.661)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:39.181)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:44.855)
I've got one of each also. Yep. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's.
Teri (47:44.856)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I've got one and a half ish. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (47:46.207)
It's like, Like Griffin might wait for one, but then after it, like, he would never, he'd be like, I think three marshmallows is good. Gobble, gobble, gobble.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:57.719)
Yeah, think it's, I mean, it's interesting. I like that we can teach it because there are so many things that are fixed, whether by our circumstances or genetics or whatever it is. And so it's just really nice that she has Angela Duckworth has really kind of brought this more to sort of the forefront in terms of psychological research that can be, what would you guys say? Like digested.
Teri (48:03.121)
Mm Yes.
The Shrink Down (48:23.438)
slide.
Wilhelmina (48:24.043)
Yes. And applied.
Teri (48:24.134)
And applied. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:25.397)
in a way that people can understand. Like, yeah, intelligence may be fixed, but this is not. And this is something that we can teach and we can model. And there can be some really good that comes of it for a child whose brain is still developing.
The Shrink Down (48:39.01)
Yeah. Well, I mean, you mentioned she has a podcast or she was on someone's podcast.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:44.387)
I think you meant to say Ted Talk. You said podcast. I think she meant to say it because I knew what you were talking about. Well, I mean, yeah.
The Shrink Down (48:46.294)
the Ted Talk. OK, OK. OK, because I was like, she has a book. But if anybody wants to hear more about that, obviously there's a Ted Talk. But she has a book. It's called Grit, The Power of Passion and Perseverance. So if anybody wants to learn more about that, that's a good one you can look into. And then also look up her Ted Talks. Any other thoughts on Grit? Sure.
Teri (48:48.538)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (49:04.868)
I have one quick one. It's a sort of a one-liner that a mentor said to me, someone I worked under when I first came to Rush, gosh, 14 years ago, I guess. And he said to me, and he was probably in the seventies at the time, and he was referring to this. I don't think the term grit specifically, but he said, I will take, and he said this towards the end of his career. said, I will take a kid's butt in the chair over a high IQ any day of the week. And,
Wilhelmina (49:05.324)
Terry.
Wilhelmina (49:30.411)
Hmm. I like that.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:31.276)
I love that.
Teri (49:31.95)
I always think about that. He's like, your kid just needs to have their butt in the chair. They need to be doing what they're supposed to be doing and persevering. I will take and not give up. So I always think kind of a weird way to put it, but I always think of that when I think of grit, butt in the chair.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:36.269)
Yeah, not give up.
The Shrink Down (49:44.879)
That's good one. All right, ladies. Good talk today. Please join us next time on the shrink down.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:44.931)
I like that, button the chair.