Future of XYZ is a bi-weekly interview series that explores big questions about where we are as a world and where we’re going. Through candid conversations with international experts, visionary leaders and courageous changemakers- we provoke new thinking about what's coming down the pipeline on matters related to art & design, science & innovation, culture & creativity.
Future of XYZ is presented by iF Design, a respected member of the international design community and host of the prestigious iF DESIGN AWARD since 1953. The show is also a proud member of the SURROUND Podcast Network. For more information, visit ifdesign.com/XYZ.
00:00:02:11 - 00:00:25:21
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Future of XYZ. As always, I'm super excited about the topic and thrilled about today's guest. We are going to be speaking about the future of greatness. We'll get to what that means and in what context with Pascale Sablan. Pascale, thank you so much for being on Future of XYZ today.
00:00:25:23 - 00:00:31:06
Speaker 2
Lisa, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and to talk about greatness.
00:00:31:08 - 00:00:50:11
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, we're talking about greatness and we'll get to it because you just released a book called Greatness, which is really about diverse designers of architecture, ta-da, by Oro Editions. It's only for the moment in preorder, but it's being fully released in early 2025. But what's the timeline?
00:00:50:13 - 00:00:51:14
Speaker 2
Early 2025, yes.
00:00:52:04 - 00:01:23:19
Speaker 1
I love that. But the reason you've written this is because you have quite a stellar background as an architect. I mean, first of all, you're the CEO of Adjaye Associates in New York City's studio. For anyone who's not an architectural buff, David Adjaye is an incredible iconic architect who, I mean, most known in the United States, I'd say, for the National Museum of African American History and Culture at the Smithsonian, which opened in 2016, which I was there living in D.C. when the building started going up,
00:01:23:19 - 00:01:53:20
Speaker 1
and it is a stunner. I've seen it since and been inside, which it makes it even better. But seeing it in both phases was amazing. You went to Pratt undergrad with your B Arch. You went to Columbia for your masters. I mean, you are the youngest fellow, African-American fellow ever of AIA in all of its history. You just recently were the president of NOMA, which I mean, I let you speak to, but also were just inducted into their council.
00:01:53:22 - 00:02:19:02
Speaker 1
You’re a LEED accredited professional. I mean, you've done so much advocacy work. You've been on, I mean, you're going to Saudi Arabia, you know, to speak to 120,000 people. I mean, you do a lot plus, of course, you have Beyond the Built Environment, which is your nonprofit. With all of that in mind, which is always kind of overwhelming.
00:02:19:05 - 00:02:53:14
Speaker 1
You're also an iF Design award juror 2020 in architecture, but we always start these out, Pascale, by talking about how do we define the topic at hand? And in this case, we're going to be talking about greatness, But your background is in architecture. so with the the book title named Greatness, I really want to talk about like this certain kind of greatness that, you know, not only emerges in the built environment, but emerges out of diversity from consideration for diverse people, diverse needs, diverse perspectives, diverse lives, right?
00:02:53:23 - 00:03:02:20
Speaker 1
Diverse places. I mean, it’s diversity in all of its forms. So in the context of this, can you define greatness for the purpose of today's conversation?
00:03:02:22 - 00:03:42:05
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Greatness is when individuals and groups and collectives, communities come together and push beyond their boundaries for the betterment of others. And I really resonate and have kind of fixated on the word greatness, really after volunteering with some elementary school kids for the NOMA Project Pipeline Architecture Camp, where we engage the day with kids and explain them about architecture, talk about the community, walked around the community and through construction paper they designed and built their own kind of vision for how they want to design their environment.
00:03:42:07 - 00:04:15:19
Speaker 2
And when I thought about what those kids do to continue to research architects, what would happen? So I went home and I ran an internet search in the words “great architects”, and the banner came up with 50 names and faces, and one was a woman, Zaha Hadid and zero were African-American or black. And being the audacious person that I am, I went to the headquarters of Google and asked the question of why that was.
00:04:15:21 - 00:04:43:11
Speaker 2
And they said, Pascale, because there's not enough content out there that lists you all as great. And that really resonated with me because we've been so fine to digest the terms greatness for so many people in architecture, but they're rarely for women and people of color. And so I started to create these exhibitions that was called Say It Loud, they’re traveling exhibitions where we elevate women and people of color of a particular location.
00:04:43:13 - 00:05:11:14
Speaker 2
We have exhibited 49 Say It Louds since 2017 when we started. The 50th one is going up next month and through that has elevated the work and identity of 1130 amazing diverse designers across the world. And so the book really is a curated collection of 40 projects within it. And so that's why it's called Greatness, because I am trying to create the content that lists us as great.
00:05:11:18 - 00:05:54:03
Speaker 2
Every person who's featured in my library in the exhibitions is also in my library, which is called the Great Diverse Designers Library, which is completely free, fully accessible for everyone. When you click in it, you can see their names, their faces, their work, bios, etc. And their bios begin with the great architect, the great interior designer, the great urban planner, using that word to create the content that says that is lacking with us, and also heal these diverse professionals for them to hear and get to smell the flowers while they can so enjoy them to know how incredible they are and what their contributions to the built environment has been and ultimately to the profession.
00:05:54:04 - 00:06:08:18
Speaker 2
So for me, greatness is acknowledging a talent in other people. Greatness is seeing that within oneself and not being shy about that. But greatness is really about giving and really recognizing others.
00:06:08:20 - 00:06:14:02
Speaker 1
I mean, I feel like we can just end the conversation there, but we won't.
00:06:14:04 - 00:06:15:17
Speaker 2
No, I’m having too much fun, can't do that.
00:06:15:21 - 00:06:47:05
Speaker 1
So I want to talk about this because the book, as you just mentioned, is a curated, very small subsection of kind of what's the best out of these, you know, over a thousand projects and people who you've showcased since 2017. And it really talks about how architects and designers around the world address unique challenges and opportunities. Can you talk to us a little bit about some of the challenges and opportunities in architecture and urban planning in the built world in general at present as we look towards the future?
00:06:47:07 - 00:07:10:18
Speaker 2
Sure. And it's it's powerful because how I structured the book is through four chapters where we focus on cultural, institutional, master planning, and residential projects. And each chapter begins with an essay written by me that talks about how there's harm and opportunities for healing of each typology and selected ten projects that speak to the healing process of that segment and that typology.
00:07:10:20 - 00:07:41:10
Speaker 2
So we talk about architecture in the practice now, some of those examples of those harms is things like affordable housing projects, which we have a lack of and we need to create more to have homes for people, right? But sometimes developments that have both affordable housing and mixed income would benefit from the tax breaks that they get from having affordable housing, but still would create a separate door, a separate entrance, right, for the affordable housing tenants versus those whose paying market rate, right?
00:07:41:22 - 00:08:03:05
Speaker 2
And so that's a level of injustice that's happening there. Or when we talk about urban planning and I was specific about not necessarily calling it master planning because of the term master and what that holds in terms of the challenges and pressures that they put on it. So you might have a community of color that is overwhelmed and overburdened with the infrastructure for an entire city to run.
00:08:03:07 - 00:08:37:03
Speaker 2
Meaning the wastewater treatment plants and facilities are all in the communities of color or the socioeconomically challenged communities. Meanwhile, the prestigious and affluent communities, all their waste is being piped, tunneled through to that community. Or you have these incredible, thriving boulevards with diverse and small companies and diverse ownership in shops. And that is the line and path where highways and intersections are being put down would decimate the financial progress that those communities have made.
00:08:37:03 - 00:09:03:05
Speaker 2
So we have to be clear, architecture can be and has been used in the past to harm. And I love the example that I talk about is the Robert Moses Bridges, where he found us to be undesirable. And when I say us, he considered people of color and immigrants to be undesirables. And he also understood at the time that our main mode of transportation was buses.
00:09:03:05 - 00:09:28:16
Speaker 2
So he mandated that the overpass bridges on the southern state parkway be nine foot or lower because then that meant bridges, I mean, buses could not pass those bridges. And so again, now we still have like 20 plus overpasses that are at that height. But this is the manifestation of this person's ideals to protect Jones Beach because he didn't want us to frequent this
00:09:28:18 - 00:09:30:02
Speaker 1
Non-inclusive design.
00:09:30:08 - 00:09:56:09
Speaker 2
A non-inclusive design. But it's not incredibly obvious to those who see it. But please know, those histories are embedded, especially when and we are often not taught about these dark sides of these narratives and how cities are put together. So I really appreciate the book and the people who've done great work and shows how they've designed in a way to be inclusive and create a just world.
00:09:56:11 - 00:10:16:10
Speaker 1
I mean, there are always so many threads in these big conversations, right, that we can pull on. But I mean, you've just alluded to the fact just even how the book is structured, right? I mean, architecture is really such a vast field of practice. It includes all of these things the residential, the commercial, the institutional, the urban planning plus, plus, plus, right?
00:10:16:23 - 00:10:31:14
Speaker 1
I mean, and all the layers. Are there ways in which these practice areas, for lack of a better term or typology, I think you said before, are either seen or approached differently through the lens of designers from various backgrounds?
00:10:31:16 - 00:10:57:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, and I think that's the point. We are not a monolith, right? All women designers design differently, right? All people of color design differently. So it's not to say that we have a particular path or a particular way of approach, but just to showcase the variety of ways of addressing a particular issue or addressing a typology. And that might be from a sustainable approach for one designer, that might mean about community building and community spaces
00:10:57:15 - 00:11:24:03
Speaker 2
for another, you know, that might be about material palettes and leveraging sustainable resourcing to make things happen. So really it has a range, and I guess that's the point. The point is great architecture and great architects don't necessarily do it all the same. And it's also the interaction or the intersection of the thought process, their design process. And those who are impacted by what is designed and how they're included in the process that we really want to highlight.
00:11:24:08 - 00:11:44:10
Speaker 2
So when we set this as an example for aspiring up and coming architects and designers, when we tell them what a great firm is, it's not just the firm that has the highest revenue for the year. It's not just about the money, right? It's about, but if all their projects are completely toxic and our structures that incarcerate and harm bodies,
00:11:44:12 - 00:12:15:05
Speaker 2
are they truly a great firm, right? So let's pull apart the definition of what great architecture is and give ideas and multiple avenues for people to consider. Because if it's so narrow, then many of us will look it down that path and don't see it fitting for us and we just avoid that pathway altogether, which would be a greater disservice to all of society if we don't have more women and people of color in the design process bringing their personal sensitivities, identities, and culture into the way we practice and to the way the world is built.
00:12:15:07 - 00:12:48:17
Speaker 1
And the research that goes alongside asking different questions and thinking a little bit outside the narrow scope of what's the profit margin on this, what’s the zoning regulations, how do we, right, the materiality? You said that here, and I know in the book and in all your work with NOMA and everywhere else, that architecture has an important role to play in emphasizing the importance of community centric approaches, especially in residential design, but not only and in shaping equitable and sustainable environments and futures.
00:12:48:19 - 00:13:14:19
Speaker 1
When I look at the built environment, especially given my work with iF and just in general, architecture is my favorite design discipline has been for ever, basically. I'm wondering if we can do a quick like trend catch up, like where things are evolving and what's your over under on them as as they might impact greatness. So the first is kind of thinking innovation, right?
00:13:14:19 - 00:13:27:17
Speaker 1
Innovations in terms of materials, again, building materials, advanced technologies, things that like are kind of new in this space. Like what's your take on it as it will impact the future of greatness?
00:13:27:19 - 00:13:51:21
Speaker 2
You know, it's I'm going to bring my CEO hat on for us to answer that question. And I say that because we really try to push the envelope in terms of studies and ideations of trying to identify what are ways of doing things. So it's not providing a template or creating a level of efficiencies, but really finding ways of how do we bring ideas about sustainable practices and materials search and even ways of construction
00:13:51:23 - 00:14:23:12
Speaker 2
that might not be easy, if you will, or even familiar to the local municipalities. But through us delivering, our projects have opened up a whole new avenue for more structures and more buildings to design and be executed in this mindset. So we are great at working through the headwinds against some of these things to ensure that the designers and the other communities that see value in these processes are able to just move a little bit stronger, a little faster without having as much resistance.
00:14:23:12 - 00:14:55:09
Speaker 2
So for me, a lot of it is the ideation and study and research that goes into, let's say it's mass timber, which our New York office is really great at. Or it's rammed Earth, which our Accra office is, is powerful at. Or low carbon concrete, which our London office is an expertise at. So really thinking through and figuring out how to push forward that those material typology which is allows us to apply it to various typologies on various continents, but pushing that knowledge sharing between us is really powerful.
00:14:55:11 - 00:15:15:19
Speaker 1
That makes sense. Now, what about sustainability? I mean, it's such a hot topic. You're, you know, LEED accredited professional, LEED is the U.S. I mean, it also crosses over into Europe, but there's also BREEAM. There are a number of accreditation models now in architecture, in the built environment, among other things, right? Energy Star and everything else.
00:15:15:21 - 00:15:26:03
Speaker 1
What is the role in the building world today and as we look to the future? Like where and is it different in different parts of the world for different audiences and different typologies? Like what's that look like?
00:15:26:05 - 00:15:54:24
Speaker 2
Absolutely. I think every project that we build across the world has a responsibility to not just extract resources and be designed for comfort and convenience, but really how do we design in a responsible way? And us leaning into that will save thousands, if not millions of lives because the the sustainable, the sustainability push in our profession is really a bit late.
00:15:55:01 - 00:16:22:18
Speaker 2
We are behind, so we need to be extra aggressive as it relates to it and the ramifications of how we've been building and how we've been treating our planet has already started to show real signs and have been devastating for many communities. And as people do urban planning and identify higher locations or more robust sections to put affluent communities, those who are socioeconomically challenged are those who are put in more vulnerable spaces.
00:16:22:20 - 00:16:44:08
Speaker 2
And so now you have people who are being harmed by weather conditions. That is a direct reflection of how we've all been impacting. So when we think about our projects, it's not just a sustainable or green wall with some plants on it, really, it's about the materials, it's the sizing, it’s the adaptive reuse opportunities. It's about local sourcing materials.
00:16:44:10 - 00:17:05:15
Speaker 2
It's about both active and passive responses to being a sustainable project. And it's also like subscribing to a lot of these metrics and certifications that are out there, and are they perfect? Absolutely not. But I really, how can you manage something that you don't measure? So I appreciate a ruler to be provided and whether we can exceed that ruler, great. If we don't exceed it, but we just meet it, sure.
00:17:05:19 - 00:17:37:23
Speaker 2
But at least we know we're fighting towards something and we have a shared goal in getting it. So I'm so excited and proud of being a LEED AP, but also any other designation that's been out there that's been put out to kind of really push that agenda forward. And as we think about A.I. and it's not just about leveraging it to kind of Photoshop cute pictures, but how do we leverage A.I. to think about efficiencies there as well and how we can work in tandem with it or in lockstep with it to really help us be that much more strategic and smart in processing our projects.
00:17:37:24 - 00:17:44:24
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And optimizing once they're live. Because the thing about architecture is, it's meant to be lasting.
00:17:45:01 - 00:17:45:22
Speaker 2
Correct.
00:17:45:24 - 00:18:19:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. So that's interesting. I don't dare ask it in light of some of the things that we can't anticipate yet with a new American administration, but in the world at large, since Adjaye is an international organization, you've made NOMA global in your presidency last year and a number of other things. I mean, are there policies and regulations that are happening in any kind of governmental or non-governmental level around the world that you think are especially inspiring or helpful to the future greatness?
00:18:19:14 - 00:18:45:23
Speaker 2
You know, I believe I'm beginning to join into those global conversations. And part of it is not to just share what we are doing here, but it's also to learn and to document and to make bridge connections between some of the strategic thinkers and, you know, forefront designers here with those in other spaces. So I'm actually looking forward to and excited to learn more about them and about the possibilities that are out there.
00:18:46:00 - 00:19:11:19
Speaker 2
But I will say one model that I had seen that I thought was absolutely phenomenal, it is U.S. based, so a caveat. There was an architecture firm that has a position called a Community Fellow. So whenever they have a project, they actually pay a community member a salary almost to not just come to one meeting, but to come to the design meetings regularly.
00:19:11:21 - 00:19:30:04
Speaker 2
And I thought that was so powerful because it's in their fees, it's in their fee structure, and it's in a way where we're not saying to a community, “Hey, can you volunteer your time to participate and provide expertise and knowledge that we literally could not get anywhere else for being an ambassador for the project for information in both directions”?
00:19:30:06 - 00:19:42:13
Speaker 2
And I love this idea. And it was by a firm out in New Orleans called Concordia that did it or does it. And I just think that that's absolutely brilliant. So it's not an international framework.
00:19:42:13 - 00:19:43:11
Speaker 1
No.
00:19:43:11 - 00:19:53:04
Speaker 2
We’re inspired by where it is. But I thought that that is the future of greatness, because it's a future that is inclusive of the community that's participating, which matters.
00:19:53:04 - 00:20:27:05
Speaker 1
And it's a small thing that's actually not mandated. It's a choice. It's great. I love that as an example. well done, Concordia. You're clearly on many levels and as I know you as well, an outspoken advocate for the power of diversity. As I said before, buildings and cities are meant to last a long time and reflect a wide range of lifestyles and cultures and socioeconomics and all sorts of, you know, aspects as things change and as they continue to evolve.
00:20:27:07 - 00:20:46:06
Speaker 1
How does that really, how does this diversity really play out in reality at both a practical, strategic as well as executional level? Like what do you, as we look towards the future of greatness, are there any like best practices that you're like, besides what you just mentioned that are like, yes, that's that's that's the way we do this?
00:20:46:08 - 00:21:28:15
Speaker 2
Well, again I'll put back my CEO hat for a hot second because I'm really proud of this. Our office is over 80% BIPOC designers and over 70% are black. And that's significant. So I say that to say when we talk about, and women are 51% in our office globally. And so I say all that to say it's not just the output of what we build, but also the team members in which we're engaging to do so and how we create opportunities within our practices to allow and to source and to truly seek out diverse talent and to give them an opportunity to learn and to participate in this awesome profession that is architecture.
00:21:28:17 - 00:21:57:19
Speaker 2
And so I say that to say, you know, it doesn’t, it’s not unintentional. There's a lot of work into increasing the exposure and the region, the connection to these diverse groups. It's about thinking about schools, universities that are not necessarily your alma mater, but those who have diverse student bodies. I just am fresh off of a tour that I did as a NOMA president with the NCARB president, Ken Van Tine, and their head of engagement, Emily Anderson.
00:21:57:24 - 00:22:31:12
Speaker 2
But we visited six of the seven HBCU schools, Historically black colleges and universities, that have the seven, that have the accredited architecture programs and the range of resources and materials and spaces and programs that are out there is incredible. And there’s such amazing talent. So really encouraging more firms to engage with those schools to get them as a space to participate when they have career days or when they're seeking to fill positions is important.
00:22:31:24 - 00:22:32:19
Speaker 2
00:22:32:21 - 00:22:38:12
Speaker 1
What percentage of architects in America, for instance, are actually people of color or black?
00:22:38:14 - 00:22:40:18
Speaker 2
We are 2.19%.
00:22:40:20 - 00:22:49:14
Speaker 1
So to have 70% in your Adjaye offices is major. That's really incredible. But less than two and a half percent, wow.
00:22:49:14 - 00:23:27:11
Speaker 2
Yes, and that, I believe we're at 2597 licensed African-American architects in the country. NOMA runs and maintains the Directory of African American architects, and that was officially started by Dennis Mann and Bradford C Grant and we've taken it over since and have maintained it and continued to grow. And that's actually how we're managing and measuring our growth in the profession and how our success models are for some of the programs and initiatives that we have out there to again, continue to push the agenda of diversifying our profession as much as possible.
00:23:27:13 - 00:24:02:21
Speaker 1
We're coming up on time. I have a couple more questions. I actually have three more questions. But, the last unique question for you, because otherwise we get into what we ask every guest at the end, but you've got in this initial like preordering of the book, you know launch, you've been known to say that the book is, I'm reading it, a call to action for architects and designers to create inclusive, sustainable, and responsive environments that foster community, dignity, and a sense of belonging for all.
00:24:02:23 - 00:24:07:03
Speaker 1
Why do you think this is so important for the future?
00:24:07:05 - 00:24:36:03
Speaker 2
Because it's documenting the past, right? And it’s putting the present so accessible. This is critical because our role in architecture isn't a passive one. It's a very active role and responsibility and it's an awesome responsibility. We do not, we as the architects and design professionals, do not control the built environment. We are stewards of protecting society. And that protection is not just from physical harm, but it's also from emotional, spiritual, mental.
00:24:36:03 - 00:24:57:04
Speaker 2
And so how does our projects, the products that we put forth, how do they heal through that work and through that effort? So, yes, this is absolutely a call for action for you to become knowledgeable about these individuals, to seek out identity and work of those individuals, to inspire the next generation to participate and engage the profession in design process.
00:24:57:06 - 00:25:26:14
Speaker 2
Really, it's about creating respect that we are documenting the roles and the contributions of women and people of color, because if not, where, when, and how would it ever be showcased and be able to be shared and be able to be a position in a material to help teach. And then also finding moments within our architecture and our designs to also keep history and to also reach and to also scaffold the future aspirations of that community.
00:25:26:16 - 00:25:51:20
Speaker 1
It's quite beautiful. I feel like that might come back in our last question, but before then, I like to ask in this new season six of Future of XYZ, we're asking those of you subject matter experts to share some resources for people who are watching or listening who might be interested in the topic. I mean, obviously your book and I'll have a link in the show notes for where people can buy it.
00:25:51:22 - 00:26:02:24
Speaker 1
But I also, are there one or two other iconic references on the topic of, it can be podcasts, it can be music, it can be art, it can be a building, it can be a book. What article?
00:26:03:01 - 00:26:30:14
Speaker 2
I would say number one would be Jack Travis's book that was published in the nineties called Black Architects. That was the reference and the inspiration for this book as well, to see what he was able to do almost 25 years ago is powerful and compelling to see the evolution of how we showcase our work and documents it. And then actually it would be the directory of diverse architects.
00:26:30:17 - 00:26:57:22
Speaker 2
And that's something that NOMA is putting out this year. So we're not just tracking African-Americans, but all diverse groups, and it's a searchable kind of component where people are able to look and research and build their profiles and be able to be connected more strategically and easily to diverse professionals of their community. So I, I want to kind of give an example of a past component and book as well as a future resource that you all can leverage for many, many more months to come.
00:26:57:24 - 00:27:10:12
Speaker 2
If I want to slide in one more in there, it would be my Great Diverse Designers library, which is the searchable component of everyone who's ever been featured in a Say It Loud, and that continues to grow with every new exhibition that we put forward.
00:27:10:17 - 00:27:14:09
Speaker 1
I love that and NOMA, by the way, stands for what? We haven't even discussed that.
00:27:14:14 - 00:27:18:04
Speaker 2
I'm sorry. It’s the National Organization of Minority Architects.
00:27:18:06 - 00:27:20:22
Speaker 1
I love that. And it’s NOMA.org is the website, I believe.
00:27:21:03 - 00:27:21:18
Speaker 2
Dot net.
00:27:21:24 - 00:27:31:01
Speaker 1
Dot net, sorry. And then the last and final question, even though I don't want to wrap up this conversation about greatness, Pascale,
00:27:31:03 - 00:27:32:05
Speaker 2
Because you are so great.
00:27:32:07 - 00:27:47:00
Speaker 1
I always ask this like, let's look out 25 years from now, like roughly 2050, what's your greatest hope for, you know, really what the future of greatness in this context of the built environment holds?
00:27:47:02 - 00:28:11:18
Speaker 2
Sure. So I would say 25 years, if not sooner, for me, greatness in the built environment is one that is free from racism, sexism, and all forms of oppression. So that is the beautiful future that I see that we will attain well before 25 years from now, where we'll be able to create a just and inclusive society where we are no longer fighting to remove the shackles that hold us back.
00:28:11:18 - 00:28:16:21
Speaker 2
We're really just excelling and thriving and soaring in all of our greatness.
00:28:16:23 - 00:28:19:13
Speaker 1
From your mouth to God's ears.
00:28:19:15 - 00:28:20:09
Speaker 2
Always.
00:28:20:09 - 00:28:31:07
Speaker 1
And doing the work. It's what matters, right? And you certainly are, as are all of your peers. And thank you for all of that. And thank you for joining us on Future of XYZ today.
00:28:31:09 - 00:28:47:11
Speaker 2
Thank you so much. This has been an absolute pleasure. I really hope you are inspired to grab a copy or two or five or ten of the book and get to know these amazing, great diverse designers and their incredible contributions to the built environment. Thank you.
00:28:47:13 - 00:29:13:02
Speaker 1
For everyone watching and listening, make sure you check out the show notes to see where you can purchase Greatness by Pascale Sablan. It's by Oro Editions, amazing publisher of beautiful books so there's lots of inspiration. And for everyone watching and listening, make sure you follow us on Instagram and if you can leave us a five star review, that's how other people will find us on your favorite podcast channels.
00:29:13:02 - 00:29:19:01
Speaker 1
So we will see you again very soon. Pascale, thank you again for joining us.
00:29:19:01 - 00:29:22:03
Speaker 2
Thank you, you're the best. Bye.