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The "No BS" version of how startups are really built, taught by actual startup Founders who have lived through all of it. Hosts Wil Schroter and Ryan Rutan talk candidly about the intense struggles Founders face both personally and professionally as they try to turn their idea into something that will change the world.
Welcome back to the episode of
the Startup Therapy Podcast.
This is Ryan Rutan, joined
as always by my friend, the
founder, and CEO of startup com.
Will, Schroeder will.
Will come as no surprise to
you that burnout is a big
thing in the founder space, but
does it happen to everybody?
Like have you, you
ever been burnt out?
Has that ever happened to you
every single year?
Like clockwork,
September the eighth,
if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah, exactly right.
Like we talk about this concept
of, you know, what's gonna
happen if I run outta gas,
if I burn out, whatever, you
know, with our startup, but
we never actually quantify.
What will actually happen?
Right?
What does transpire So today,
I think we should talk about
like, you know, how we fear it
and we fear this reaper of, you
know, I'm gonna burn out and
everything's gonna go to hell.
Then what actually happens then?
How to plan for it, right?
How to actually get past
it and see through it.
So Ryan, when you think about
getting burnt out, what do
you picture in your mind?
I, I just wanna set this
up, you know, what is
that apocalypse scenario?
Yeah.
So I'm gonna go back in time.
I'm gonna go back in time to
the first startup and because
I feel very differently
about it now, right?
Like, I now understand that
burnout isn't a bug, right?
It's just a capacity ceiling,
right?
And it's not a surprise
that we burn out.
It's a surprise that
we pretend that we.
Don't.
Right.
So look, if I go back in
time, I distinctly remember
thinking like, I don't
have the energy to do this.
I can't keep this up.
I can't possibly keep all
these plates spinning, and
if I don't, it will all
just collapse in on itself.
Erupt into flames, and when I
do wake up from this little nap
that I need, there'll be nothing
but a pile of ashes for me to
stare at and, and lament right.
It, it was scorched earth.
Right.
It wasn't like, well,
this little thing could
go wrong, or that little
thing could go wrong.
It's just like, just immediate
full destruction every time.
It's the equivalent of you
going up to play soccer.
Yeah.
And saying, the goal is
for me to never come off.
Is it the pitch?
Did I get that right?
It's the pitch.
It is
the pitch.
I guess that was the only
soccer terminology I knew.
But let's call it the
field for a second.
Like literally you saying,
I'm gonna go play this game.
Yeah.
And I'm never gonna
come off the field.
Never
at all.
Or any other sport.
Right.
And magically I'll still be
amazing at it all the time.
Exactly, and And that's
actually how we go
into building startups.
Yeah.
We're like, I guess I have
to be on the field 24 7
all the time
and never rest in what world
Does that make any sense?
Only the founder world
apparently, because we
keep seeing people do it
even though it doesn't
actually make any sense.
Yeah.
So, you know, from my
standpoint, I think
the first thing.
We have to recognize
that burnout is actually
part of the process.
It's not this freakish like
cancer that, that we've, and
we can't believe is terminal.
It's one of those things where
we have to say, okay, this is,
this is going to happen to me
over and over and over again.
It took me 20 years
to figure that out.
It took me 20 years of
running myself into the
ground and for the longest
time, the only time I stopped
to recover from burnout.
Was when I injured
myself so badly.
Yeah.
I didn't have a choice.
I basically just ran until I
got sick every single time.
That's it.
And, and look, the
founder pace like is not
sustainable indefinitely.
Right.
While we're out there building
traction, you know what
else is gaining traction?
Cortisol, sleep, debt,
decision fatigue.
Right?
All of those things are gaining
ground at exactly the same time,
and so we, we have to take a
break and, and I think that
most of us do start the same
way that you just described
will, which is that I'll stop
when they have to drag me off
the field and they carry me
off the field on a gurney.
It'll be time to rest.
Right.
Which I guess there's a certain
point in life where maybe you
can kind of get away with that.
Like when we were in our
early twenties, you can
kind of get away with that.
Late twenties, less so.
Early thirties, less so,
late thirties, probably
not early forties,
definitely not late forties.
Mm-hmm.
No way.
Not doing it.
We've, we've played attached
to this one, but I guess what's
interesting about startups
is that unlike jobs where you
know that if you work a lot,
you're gonna get a vacation.
Like there is a
break at your W2 job.
There is no set break.
No there isn't.
And in our minds like
this, chaos continues.
Forever.
And it will actually,
it will if we let it.
I think that's the
dangerous part, right?
Because we just keep saying,
just one more milestone, right?
Like it's the last hill.
But, um, startups are all
hill all the time, right?
There's always something
else to be done.
And so I think we, we really
have to be careful there, right?
To your point, there isn't
some marker in time, right?
There's not a
spring break coming.
There's not, you know, X
number of vacation days.
No, we better use those
before the end of the year.
There isn't anything that's
gonna make us do that.
Right?
Short of the physical
collapse, like you described,
I wanna draw a parallel.
If this were a job, if
startups were a job, here's
what that job would look like.
Every week, your boss would
come in and say, you're
probably gonna get fired
on Friday every week.
Okay?
Yeah.
He would indicate that you have
no vacation time whatsoever,
and that on Friday when your
paychecks come out, yours
might be zero or even worse.
You might owe the company money,
right?
That would be the job
you work at, right?
In what place in the world.
Would that be okay with anybody?
Yeah.
And yet that's actually our job.
That's what we signed up for.
Yeah.
Right.
And so like what version is
that gonna leave us with?
You know?
So like pumped up
and excited forever.
Yeah.
Because most of this
shit sucks, right?
Yeah.
Most of what we do, and most
of these outcomes are painful.
And the idea that we
just forever absorb and
somehow magically it never
gets to us is bananas.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that we look
at it as though we've
failed in some way.
Right.
If we do that right,
it's not that right.
Burnout isn't some character
flaw or something you
should have overcome.
It's just an unpaid bill.
You've been burning the
candle at both ends, and
at some point it's gonna
meet in the middle, right?
You're gonna flame out.
How you handle that, I
think has a lot to do
with how you approach.
Now, of course, I think you
and I would both argue, let's
keep that from happening
to the extent that we can.
Let's be smarter about this.
But there are also times
where you just feel like,
regardless of how tired you
are, like I do need to sprint.
I want to run, I want to
hit that next milestone.
Right?
But I, I just, I don't think
anybody at this point should
be shocked by founder burnout.
Right.
I agree.
Also, we don't have
obvious milestones where
it's okay to stop because
shit breaks all the time.
Yeah.
There's only two outcomes.
Outcome.
One is things are getting
way worse and we have
to save everybody.
Or outcome two is things are
growing and we have to be all
in it in in order to maintain
that growth, either outcome
just drains the hell out of
us, and I think the problem is.
There's never an obvious,
this is our free parking
where, you know, where
we can pause for a second
never
and not be in some sort
of danger like that.
Everybody thinks that it must
be obvious when that happens.
It's not.
You don't have any funding.
You get funding the moment
you get funding, it all resets
whole new set.
It all resets.
You gotta go complete.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think the part of
the problem is that I
think everybody's plan.
Is it they have to be
Superman or superwoman.
That is the plan.
And that's a bad plan, right?
It's a bad plan.
If your plan is, I just
won't burn out, that's
gonna fail, right?
We cannot rely on that because
it's certainly not gonna exist.
I didn't understand burnout for,
like I said, about 20 years.
I assumed burnout is just
what happens when you cannot
function anymore, which is true.
I mean, technically that that
is true, but I ran to physical
failure year after year.
All the time, and I
assumed that was okay.
I assumed like what you're
supposed to do is run your body
and your mind as hard as you
can until it all breaks, and
then, then you're sick for a
while, so you physically can't
work and then you come back and
you just do it all over again.
Yeah,
and I guess nobody tapped me on
the shoulder and said, Hey dude,
that's actually a terrible idea.
Stop doing it.
No one.
Right.
Nobody in 20 years.
Yeah.
Ever told me to stop doing it.
I think part of it is
that it's, it can be hard
to see from the outside.
Right.
I think it can be hard to see
because it's something else that
founders were, we're really good
at is running ourselves into
the ground while masking it.
Right.
We are that need.
Oh yeah.
The fire all around,
like this is fine.
Right.
Like that's us to a t Well, do
you have a burnout trigger list?
Like do you have a, a
list of symptoms or things
that you watch out for?
I do now.
I didn't before I do now.
It's a great question I do
now, because before again,
I just was like, oh, just
push harder, drink more
caffeine, push harder, right?
Sleep less, whatever.
And I realize now that at which
point I lose my creativity.
That's my health bar.
Uh, you know, Uhhuh, we always
talk in video game terms.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's my health bar.
Like at which point my
creativity has gone into zero,
that's when I can tell like,
I can't write, you know, I
can't write copy, I can't come
up with a new product idea.
Like at that point I'm just
like, I'm this the rolled
up tube of toothpaste.
Yeah.
And it happens
left to squeeze
in fourth quarter of
every single year.
Yeah.
Like now I see it, right?
Yeah.
Oh, now we, we start
talking about it.
We start talking about
it in October, right?
We start talking about
where you're at with the
gas tank and the fact
that it's coming, right?
It's coming.
We're about to run outta gas,
and I'm not good
at taking breaks.
I wish I could.
Tell you like, I have this
great, you know, secret
weapon of taking breaks.
I'm not good at taking breaks.
Like I sit at my computer from
the moment I wake up, and so the
moment I go to bed, I don't take
any breaks during the day when
I work, like when I'm building
my house on the weekends,
I don't take any breaks.
I mean, you've been
with me like doing this.
I've been there.
I know.
It doesn't occur
to me it should.
Right.
And this a rational thing to
do, and I'm not knocking it
and I'm not championing the
fact that I don't take breaks.
I'm saying it's, it's a failure.
But because of that, I'm
constantly like taking myself
into hyper speed toward burnout.
Yep.
Right.
If I took breaks, I'd probably
be able to pace myself,
but unfortunately I don't.
However, the one thing I
have come to learn is that
there is a breaking point.
Mine happens in Q4 of every
year, but by the time I
hit Q4 specifically by
December, I am useless.
Yeah, I'm absolutely useless.
And I used, used to
just pound through.
Right.
And now, you know, and we
will talk about this later.
I don't like, I'm hyper aware.
Here's why.
Because I used to picture.
What would happen if I stopped
and it was apocalyptic, right?
It was.
It was the walking dead the day
after tomorrow, apocalyptic.
If I stopped killing myself
for one day, the whole
house of cards falls down.
Right.
That was the picture in my mind.
H how, how do you see it
when you, when you think of
I'm no longer contributing.
What's the chain of events?
Yeah.
Oh, it was the, it was
the same thing, man.
Right.
You know, I, I used to
grossly overestimate my
uniqueness and, and input and
underestimate the team, right?
Like, it's just that, that's
a great way to put it.
Look in the beginning, and I
think it does come from a very
specific place, right in the
beginning, there is no team.
It's you,
right?
It's just you.
It's you.
And so if you stop doing.
Everything stops, right?
But at some point, like that
changes, but we, we forget that.
I think it's one
of those things.
At some point we start to
realize that like we can
start to move from this
scarcity mindset into more
of an abundance mindset and
go like, okay, it's, it's
not actually like I, I'm
not the only resource here.
There's abundant resource,
we can take advantage of it.
And honestly, the more we
communicate that kind of stuff,
the more open we about this.
The fact that you know the
team, everyone knows there's
gonna be this point in the
year where you're gonna need
to disappear for a bit and
recharge your batteries.
Great.
Everybody's geared up and
ready for that, right?
It's when we try to keep it a
secret or we pretend that we are
like this, this sole resource.
That can become a
self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
Because then all of
a sudden I agree.
You just dip out and
everybody's like, what
the hell just happened?
That's bad, right?
Our fear story, I think,
is that like product stops,
customers flee, investors
riot team collapses, right?
And it gets published on
the front page of every
major news outlet, right?
That's the way we think
it's going to happen.
It reminds me of, you
know, the concept of Atlas
holding up the world.
Yeah.
And we get this concept in our
head that if we shrug again,
Alice shrugged, my favorite
book, if we shrug, the whole
thing goes away, right?
Yes.
And here's what's
interesting about that.
It's true.
It just takes a lot
longer than you think.
Yeah,
right?
It's not as like
cause and effect.
Now there's some founder
that's listening right now,
and it's like what you're
saying is, doesn't apply to me.
I'm billing hours every month.
If I stop billing hours,
I stop getting paid.
I get it.
Totally get it, but
what's missing there?
When we think about the major
categories that are of failure,
like our apocalyptic categories,
let's break 'em down.
We've got customers,
we've got staff.
We've got investors.
Assuming we have
investors, right?
Those are usually the big three.
From the customer standpoint.
Sometimes they
don't even notice.
Like sometimes you're gone
and they don't even notice.
Oh,
you were gone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, think about
that for a second.
Imagine you were so hung up.
If you took a break, your
customer would go ballistic
and then you're sick or some,
you know, life event happens
or whatever and you're gone
and they didn't notice.
Yeah.
Like, huh.
Okay.
With your team, and again, we'll
break this down a little bit
more, but with your team, it's
like, if I'm gone, the team
is gonna be in total chaos.
Yeah,
maybe.
Yeah.
Are they?
Yeah.
And then my favorite is if I'm
gone, the investors are gonna
like grab the pitchforks and
like come mob style to my house.
Nope, that's absolutely
not gonna happen.
How do you see of those
different categories, how do you
see that actually breaking down?
Look, it's just
not reality, right?
Look, at some point it might
be, again, like if it's really,
really early stage and you're
the only thing, but then also
like what is actually gonna
be lost at that point, right?
Right.
If your business is still so
young and so fragile that it
could completely fall apart.
How long is it actually
gonna take you to put
it back together again?
Right,
right.
Your six Legos in, it's
not a whole lot of rebuild.
Right,
right,
right.
So I think that we have to
recognize that at some point,
what you should be trying to do.
Right.
Let's just assume that in the
early stage that the founder
is the load-bearing wall.
Right.
You should be trying
to become one of many
buttresses at some point.
There should be a lot of
other things that are holding
that business together,
whether those are people,
systems, tools, whatever.
Right?
And so I think that the
reality there is that.
Most of these systems
aren't as fragile as we,
as we would like to think.
Part of that is I think just
our own ego telling us that
we're we're super important
and echoing back to the
beginning when we were the
only thing, and part of it's
just fear of identity, right?
It's if I'm not constantly
producing, what am I worth?
Right.
Biggest problem with all of
this is the irony here is that
this apocalyptic fantasy is
what keeps founders grinding
until it actually becomes real.
Because we do wear ourselves
out, we wear the team out,
and then all of this stuff
can actually come to pass.
But if we, if behave more
realistically, right, and
we do give ourselves those
breaks, and we do become
a little more cognizant of
what will actually happen.
Then I think we can become far
more comfortable with the idea
that we don't have to hold the
entire world on our shoulders
all the time, some of the time.
Sure.
Right.
But burnout, panic is just
your ego writing disaster.
Fan fiction, right?
Like that's what
this shit is, right?
Believe me, mine was quick with
the pen in the early stages.
Now, like I said, I think we,
you and I have both gotten
more comfortable with this over
time, but at the early stages,
like get it, it is terrifying.
It feels like it is
not, but it feels like
getting out of the car.
While it's still moving, right?
And expecting bad things
not to happen, right?
You can't do that.
The reality is that's
just not the case.
When I was first learning to
play hockey, my hockey coach
said, I want you on the ice
for two minutes, no more Uhhuh.
And he said, I want you to
skate as hard as you can for two
minutes so that at the end of
two minutes your legs are mush.
For folks that haven't
played hockey before, try
skating as hard as you can
in the middle of a game.
If you can make it for two
minutes, you are, you either
have amazing stamina or you
probably play in the NHL, right?
Like if you do this, this
right and you skate as
hard as you can, which is,
you know, parallel to, to
working hard, you're gassed.
Yeah.
Meaning if you were still
on the ice in minute
three, you're useless.
You were a liability.
Yep.
Right?
So, which is why he said
get the hell off the ice.
And I, I never forgot that.
I never forgot why I was
getting off the ice in two
minutes because there was
another guy that I was tagging
in that was fresh legs.
Yep.
That was actually
gonna score a goal.
Yep.
Three minutes.
I wasn't gonna score a goal.
Right.
Yeah, he was, I was a
liability at burnout.
I, it took me a long time to
understand how that worked.
Yeah, and I think it does also
go back to something else, which
is that there, there is a bit of
a fear component there, right?
Meaning that if it feels
like I can just tag somebody
else to do that, there's
this feel that am I.
As necessary as I thought I was.
Right.
And I think that as founders,
we do struggle with that.
Right?
Right.
So it's like, do I really,
do I even want to be able to
tag somebody else in to do
what I do, but I, I'm the only
one that can do what I do.
Right.
Well, probably not true.
You know, something
that's really funny about
everything we talk about
here is that none of it.
Is new.
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.
You may just not know
it, but that's okay.
That's kind of what
we're here to do.
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing
about what to do, let us just
give you the answers to the
test and be done with it.
So, aside from taking a
break, if I say if I burn out.
If I run outta gas, my
customers are all gonna bail.
The product will never see the
light of day, blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
Everything's gonna fail.
My staff will go crazy.
Right.
They, they'll, they'll
ride in the streets.
Right?
Uh, my investors will
all pull out, they'll get
angry at me, et cetera.
This is what we picture though.
All of these things will happen.
What we don't understand
is that these nightmares
usually never come to pass.
Yeah.
Like, not even remotely true.
Yeah.
It took me getting burnt out.
Being forced to see those
outcomes, to be like,
dude, what the hell?
Right.
Like none of that
stuff happened.
Yeah.
And now because Ryan, you
and I work with countless
other startups, we get to see
the world through their eyes
and it like these nightmares
rarely, like, hardly ever
happen, and certainly not
see the extent that we
think they're gonna happen.
You know what I mean?
I think, you know, as, as
we learn to step back, we
realize that the, the system
often self-corrects, right?
The team rises to the
occasion, the customers stay.
Investors didn't give a shit
before, still don't give a shit.
Right.
They know that most of
these are gonna gonna
fail, doesn't matter.
Right.
The thing that I think
is important to remember
here is also if we wait
until it truly is that
nightmare moment where we're
completely beat up and burnt.
Yeah.
And just gone and gasp before
we decide, we, we somehow
think that this is noble.
I'll just go until I break.
Well then you're stress
testing the team all at once
or the system all at once.
Whereas if we just take
some of these little breaks,
give ourself a little more
grace as we go, you actually
get a chance for that team,
for the customers, for the
systems to build a little
resilience as it goes.
Right?
It's like building any muscle.
I think when we save it all
until, until it really does
look apocalyptic, then it has
a better chance of actually
being APO apocalyptic.
Right, right.
But I think really the
point here, like the
world doesn't stop, right?
Neither does your
business gaps get filled.
Things continue to happen.
I remember we had raised
our series seed, right?
And we'd burnt through it
and we've been looking for
a series A for a long time.
Uh, we had a term sheet, it
was gonna get closed and the
world changed and we didn't.
And I remember I sat down
with one of our board members,
and I remember I probably
spent every bit of a year
playing scenarios in my head.
As to what he would say
when I said, Hey, like,
I think we're screwed.
Like actually screwed.
Like, like we're beyond the
point where if anybody's
gonna give us money, they
would've given it to us by now.
Uh, and we're not there.
And I had all of these same
thing, nightmare scenarios as to
how this was going to go, like
how this was gonna transpire.
And his response was more
like, oh, that's interesting.
Like could not care less.
Right?
Yeah.
I was blown like I thought he
was G like it was gonna be this
big explosive boardroom battle.
Yeah.
I basically told him that
McDonald's didn't have
his favorite Happy Meal.
Yeah.
And he was like, oh,
that's unfortunate.
I mean, with that
level of caring.
Right.
And I was like, dude, I've
been racking myself for
12 months worrying about
this conversation, thinking
it was gonna be something
else and it was nothing,
nothing.
I don't know that investors
love surprises, but I also
don't think that any of them
would be surprised to find out
that a founder needed a break.
Right.
And I think the, the problem
there is generally like, and
even in this case, like you
said, you tried to keep it,
you know, kind of hidden for
a, a long period of time.
Yeah.
But I, I think the problem
really there is, is more
secrecy and not recovery.
Right.
Like, had you just taken
the time you needed to
recover, it would've
been fine as well, right?
Like, I think they would've
been equally fine with that,
but that's why I ran
myself to the ground.
Because I thought
this was gonna be some
massive, you know, revolt.
And what I didn't know,
again, this is 20 years ago,
what I didn't understand
is that I am, but a piece
of everybody else's life.
Yep.
I am not all of
everybody else's life.
Yeah.
You only need to be central
character in one movie.
Exactly.
And so my information to him
was one of 20 things that
happened to him that week.
Sure.
It wasn't the only thing that
happened to him that week.
It was the only thing
that happened to me.
Relative to life.
It was not the only thing
that happened to him.
Here's another example,
and I just think it's,
it's kind of interesting.
Whenever you read something
like in social media and
it's a big news item or a
terrible news item, whatever,
and you swirl right past it.
Yeah.
Right.
Such and such famous actor
dies at whatever age.
Huh.
That's interesting.
Before I passed it, right?
Yep.
Like, your world doesn't stop.
Right,
right.
Like it's amazing because in
that person's mind, like their
death would, you know, cause
this mourning and again, closer
family members, stuff like that.
But like what we forget is
that we are, like you said,
not the central character in
everybody else's life in that
moment doesn't mean nearly as
much to them, but we treat.
As if it's this cataclysmic
it, it affects everybody
the way it affects us, and
it pretty much never does.
It's not that investors don't
care about founders or that
customers don't care about
founders, but what they really
love is outcomes, right?
So if the product delivers
at some point, if the
investment delivers, at
some point they stick
around, they're fine, right?
They don't.
And look, man,
need you to be on 24 7.
There are higher
stakes conversations.
Sometimes there are
a-hole investors.
Right.
For, so I'm not saying that
for all investors don't care.
I'm saying we tend to
forget that we are one
of 20 investments and
18 of us are gonna fail.
Yeah.
So it's not like two of us are
gonna fail and they're shocked
that one of their portfolio
to be It has to be one of the
two.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They probably had five
conversations this month
about the same thing.
Right.
So it's unfortunate, but
it's not like, like they're
running home crying now again.
Lots of different investors,
lots of different portfolios,
but I think what's interesting
is we always picture those
moments as being way different.
Like when we talk to our staff
and we say, like in my case,
hey, you know, I'm gonna take
some time off to recharge.
No one cares.
Like literally Ryan.
It took me years to even
propose that in this
whole time, no one cared.
Sweating bullets
while you do it.
And then everyone's
like, yep, it's good.
See you in.
See you in January.
Yeah.
And no one cares.
And here's another side to it
that I've also found interesting
in other people's businesses.
In some cases it's
an opportunity.
So if we step back from doing
something so we can recharge,
whatever, it's an opportunity
for other people to step in.
Yeah.
And maybe crazy idea.
Maybe that's what
the business needs.
Yeah.
Maybe the business does
need some people to kind
of fill that vacuum for a
minute so you can see what
other people had to offer.
Yeah.
Right.
Give 'em the opportunity.
Right.
If we keep the business
in a death grip, it can't
do anything without us.
Right.
It has to.
It relies on us at that point,
but the minute we release
that and relax a little bit,
it can breathe on its own.
Right.
At least has the chance to.
Right.
Again, mileage will
vary, but like we can
be sure of one thing.
If you don't give the, the team
the opportunity to step up,
they can't and then we won't
know what they're capable of.
Right.
And not, maybe they don't
get everything perfect, but
everything doesn't have to be
perfect all the time either.
Right.
Like I'm a big fan of they,
they call good enough.
Good enough for a reason.
Right.
It's good enough.
Yeah.
Right.
It'll get you by and it's not
like you're, it's not like you
take a six year sabbatical.
Right.
You take off part of December.
Well, and, and here's the
thing for a lot of folks,
they don't need you all
the time in that capacity.
Especially, you know, if
you're in management, like
in a key management role,
sometimes you are absolutely
needed and there's a reason
you're earning your paycheck.
Sure.
But most of the time everybody's
doing their own shit.
Like they're not super
focused on where you are
right
now.
Think about this.
Had I never proposed that I'm
gonna take some time off to
recharge, it would've never
occurred to me that I could.
Right?
So now, you know when, when
Q4 rolls around, everybody
kind of knows that that Will's
gonna check out for December.
Right.
And it's not a giant surprise,
but for me, the amount
of refresh that buys me
Yeah, yeah.
Is off the charts.
Right?
Well, the amount of refresh
and just, but play out
the other side of it.
If you don't take that, it's
not like things just keep going.
I think this is
the fallacy, right?
This is, this is a big part of
where founders get this wrong.
It's like.
They assume that just,
well, okay, well I don't
need that big refresh.
I'll just keep limping through.
Limp turns into crawl,
turns to rollover, turns to
die at some point, right?
And I think that's where,
yeah, you're right.
You're right where this
goes really, really wrong.
And so yes, you need that
refresh, but it's not just that
you come out like, and you do.
You come outta January like
a rocket, which is amazing.
But it's not like you would've
just continued the same pattern
as October, November, December,
had you not taken a break.
Right.
Super, super dangerous
assumption for people.
I also think psychologically
for all of us knowing that
there is a break to be had.
Yeah.
Makes it easier to pace.
Yeah.
Right.
So like I get less anxious,
if you will, that I'm less
effective in October than
less effective in November
because I know I'm gonna reset.
And so my, uh, anxiety about,
you know, not being as effective
is quelled to the extent that
my anxiety can be quelled.
Yeah, it's, it's similar to
like, you know, when you're,
when you're young and you're
paycheck to paycheck, right?
Yep.
And you know, you're getting
near the end of that paycheck
and the account's getting
thin, but you know, the
next paycheck is coming.
You know, the next payday's
coming and so you can feel
comfortable, you know, I
almost outta gas, but I
know where the next, the
next gas tank's coming from.
Right.
And I think that that's,
that's important.
Yeah.
I was talking to a buddy of mine
that was, uh, came to visit a
few weeks ago and he had started
doing quarterly retreats and
he said he is like, I have no
idea why I wasn't doing this
the entire time for whatever
it cost me in time and money.
It bought me back in
energy focus, creativity,
all this stuff.
It's like, and it, it
just, it never occurred
to me that I could, right.
To your point.
Right.
Hadn't given himself permission
to even think about it, let
alone to do it until he did.
And he is like,
actually this works.
I gotta say, you know, as much
as we're been talking about
it, as I think through it in 32
years of being a founder to this
day, I still look at vacation.
I still justify vacation as
an opportunity to work more.
Not during vacation, but post
vacation, I look at any time
off is an opportunity for me
to be more productive when
I come through the time off.
Yeah.
And if I don't feel like I
am, I don't take the time.
I'll give you an example.
My wife and I go on vacation
and she'll be the first to
admit I suck at vacation.
I'm not good at vacation at
all, because the entire time, my
mind's just racing about work.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Uh, I can't turn it off.
And when I'm sitting on
a beach and I'm staring
at my toes, I'm like.
This is boring.
Like, you know, I wonder how we
could increase our, our landing
page or I wonder how, you know,
we could do this or whatever.
Right?
My mind's constantly
on something else, so
I suck at vacation.
My wife on the other hand,
she's like, I don't care about
anything when I'm on vacation.
Right?
She goes full vacation
mode, which is awesome.
So I look at my vacation as if,
when I go on it, if I don't do
a good job with it, like if I
know I'm not gonna like rest
or recharge, why take one?
And so because of that,
I'm not good at planning
or taking vacations.
Yeah.
Most people do this crazy thing.
Yeah.
When you're looking at
the ROI, that specifically
I think is tough.
Yeah.
Most people do this crazy
thing where they take
vacations just 'cause it's fun.
Yeah.
They want to.
Yeah.
Which doesn't occur to me.
I remember.
This is years back, I'd
taken a March vacation,
like spring break, you know,
for the kids and stuff.
I don't remember where we went.
Whatever we did.
And it was rare because it how
much you enjoyed the
actual vacation part.
Exactly, exactly.
Like, you know, spring break's
coming up and uh, to give you
a sense for it, family's going
on vacation for nine days.
They're going place in
Florida and I'm not going.
Yeah.
Because I have work to do.
This says it.
All right.
So anyway, my point is,
I remember I went on
that vacation and I came
back and it felt great.
It felt great, and I
remember talking to you
guys and I was like, man, I
should do this every year.
And you're like.
Like literally
everyone else does.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just,
I thought I'd come back with
some special knowledge no one
else had ever shared before
Lightning.
You got lightning in a bottle
here will, you should name
this something like vacation
and sell it to people.
Yeah.
And I remember saying, I
remember saying, dare to dream.
Imagine if I, how I'd feel
if I did this every quarter.
Yeah.
You mean like literally
every person does?
Yeah.
See, it doesn't
even occur to me.
But here's what's
been interesting.
Okay, so I'm not great vacation
guy, but here's what I have done
that I think is very valuable.
I understand burnout is real.
I've taken command for it,
and I planned for it, right?
Like I've actually started
to say, I'm not gonna
pretend it doesn't happen.
I'm not gonna look at it
as a failure of my ability.
I'm gonna look at it as
an absolute certainty.
Yeah.
And I'm gonna plan around it.
And I, I think a lot
of people miss that.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And, and I think that that
is the important part, right?
Is you gotta, you gotta
accept that it's coming and
you have to plan for it.
It's like, it's
like taxes, right?
You don't get to just
not pay them, right?
You're gonna pay the tax and it
comes around, and if you plan
for it, it's a lot less painful.
If you don't, you
can get very painful.
We gotta stop thinking of, of
recovery as time off, right?
It's maintenance.
It is a required piece of this.
I'm sure you'd agree,
but I can't think of a
single great startup that
was built on somebody
that just looked burnout,
drag ass and empty tank.
Right.
It just doesn't happen.
You can't, because that
spreads too, right?
Yep.
If that's you, then that's
the rest of the team too.
There was, somebody said
this once and I, I couldn't
help but agree a bit.
Like if you can't take time
off, you don't own a company,
your company owns you, right?
Yeah.
You're so involved in
every single process that.
You are required for everything.
You don't have employees either.
They have you.
You have to build these things
in a way that don't rely on
your input a hundred percent
of the time if you have, you
haven't really built a business.
I agree.
It's also reflective.
I mean, if you're saying it's
okay to, to run to failure
and, and operate at failure,
then you're also telling
the rest of your staff.
I remember like, you know, yeah.
Elon Musk does this thing all
the time where he is like, you
know, I've got engineers working
a hundred hours a week and
blah, blah, blah, and I'm like.
Okay.
Like neat, how long
does that last?
Right?
Like, like who's at peak
performance when you do that?
You can do it leading up
to a, a unique event if
you go back and replenish.
Yeah.
But if you're like, that's
our standard work week.
Like I remember the old
adage, I think it was Goldman
Sachs, it said, if you don't
come in on Saturday, don't
bother coming in on Sunday.
Yeah.
And I remember that was
such a classic eighties,
you know, Axiom at the time.
I remember thinking
that was awesome.
Yeah.
And I look back, I'm like, wow.
Like, like all those
miserable people.
And I get it, you know, I get
the, the hard work ethos, but,
but I'll say this, I think for
a lot of us that haven't done
the startup thing before, we
don't realize that there aren't
scheduled breaks, you know?
Yeah.
Like, like a W2 job.
And we don't realize that
we are gonna run ourselves
into the ground in a way
that we've never done before
at a freaking epic level.
Well, and that's
the thing, right?
It, because we've never had an
opportunity to do it before.
Yeah.
Regardless of whether,
you know, where you were,
there would've been.
Built in break points, right?
It's like you can't just go and
play on a soccer team and just
play and play and play and play.
They, they blow the whistle and
they make you get off the field.
'cause the next teams right,
like it, there are forced and
built in stops and breaks.
And I think you enter startup
for the first time and you,
you run into two things.
You run into a machine
that will take as much
as you can give, right?
There will always be
something more to do.
Endless torrent,
endless right?
Endless consumption.
And.
Simultaneously, all the people
who would've told you to stop,
who would've blown the whistle.
Gone, right?
Yeah.
And so in the beginning,
we think that it's our
goal to be tireless, right?
That we have to just be
able to keep doing this.
And what I realized over
time is like my goal is
actually just to be durable.
I don't need to be tireless.
I just gotta, it's
well said.
I gotta be able to
outlast this stuff, right?
And that does mean resting.
That does mean stopping.
That does mean taking
a beat here and there.
I don't think we should worry
about running out of gas
so long as you plan for it.
I think it's, it's
okay to run hard.
It's okay to do those a
hundred hour weeks or, you
know, whatever you're doing.
So long as you plan for
what's on the other side.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
So long as you, you plan for,
for your, for your time out.
And when I think about great
startups that are built.
I don't think about great
startups that are built
where everyone just runs
to, uh, to the end forever.
Yeah, it's unsustainable.
You cannot run a business.
You cannot run yourself
by running everybody
into the ground.
It doesn't last, right?
So if you're planning on
building for long, team
term for yourself, for
your, your company, for your
staff, et cetera, you've
gotta plan these breaks.
There are no great companies
that have ever been
built on an empty tank.
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors
helping them win in the
startups.com community.
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com
to see if it's for you.
Could be just the
thing you need.
I hope to see you inside.