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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: The Chief Technology officer of EY Oceania, Katherine Boychuk recently said, I'll be damned if I watch another technological revolution. Leave women behind. Well, she's right to be worried. AI adoption by women, trails that of men. But how should women approach the workplace to get the most for themselves and also give their best to their teams and their organizations?
[00:00:22] Dan: In this episode of We, not Me, we talk to Sheila Subramanian, author, former VP at Slack, an advocate for women in the workplace so that we can all contribute to making our teams fairer and better for all.
[00:00:38] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:45] Pia: And I am Pia Lee, Dan Hammond. I've read a very interesting LinkedIn article today, um, about AI and women in the workforce. Apparently nearly 60% of women are quite worried around job loss as a result of ai, but only 22% of women are actively adopting it and are interested in it. So there's a quite a concern around another digital revolution passing over the heads of, uh, women in the workforce.
[00:01:17] Dan: it's really interesting actually.
[00:01:18] Pia: you know, and another sort of Narrow band of males benefiting from from it. And yeah, just really interesting actually what, what we need to be doing to educating the next generation, educating ourselves.
[00:01:31] Dan: Yes, indeed. And actually it's, it's a strange coincidence. Be uh, because I met, um, you know, we were at, I was in London last week with, um, Ian, uh, our CTO presenting at an AI meetup, which was about all the AI we are using in the, in Squadify. And, I met a woman called Susie O'Neill, and she's.
[00:01:51] Dan: Very much into this topic of, uh, technology adoption by women and says that, there's 21% less adoption by women. Of ai. So it's, it's definitely a real gap. So, and so it's, it's troubling. It's another technology, I think, um, another technology revolution, as you say, that could pass, pass women by, it's, it's persistent problem.
[00:02:10] Dan: I think we see this in society, don't we? When things happen, it just. Disadvantages, people who are already, um, sort of struggling to keep up or establish a space, uh, for themselves. So, um, and so it's a great time to talk about women in the workplace, actually in the modern workplace. and, uh, that's exactly what we're gonna be doing today, um, with Sheela Subramanian, who is, as well here.
[00:02:34] Dan: Salesforce executive and really campaigning now and getting really stuck into this topic of how, uh, women can, can approach the workplace for the, to have the best impact on themselves, but obviously the workplace itself. So, um, let's go and hear that conversation now, which we recorded a little bit of time ago now in Berkeley, California.
[00:02:54]
[00:02:57] Pia: So here we are again. Uh, we are still on the west coast of the US and um, and we're very excited to have you, Sheela, as our we Not me podcast guest. Welcome.
[00:03:09] Sheela: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:03:10] Dan: Welcome. Well,
[00:03:11] Pia: we are really looking forward to the conversation. Lots of common ground on teams to talk about. we have a question to ask you first. Um, as we do the conversation starter cards, I dunno why they're call starter cards 'cause we don't actually have a conversation, we just. Ask a question.
[00:03:26] Pia: Yeah, it's true actually. And the poor person at the end of it has to speak. And we
[00:03:29] Dan: call them starter cards, and they're conversation starter cards, aren't they? Anyway, anyway, that's a side, that's our problem. I'm now having, but your problem is your problem, Sheela, is this question I'm going to ask you.
[00:03:38] Dan: and the question we've selected, um, is this one, the hardest lesson I've learned.
[00:03:45] Sheela: Yes, this is a great question and also a challenging one because I'm a parent of two young kids and I feel like I learn new lessons
[00:03:53] Sheela: every single day about. About myself. Um, but when I think about lessons that I've learned that have shaped my life today, I think back to, um, my climb of Mount Kilimanjaro.
[00:04:05] Sheela: Uh, see, I decided to climb Kilimanjaro for my honeymoon 10 years ago. Um, it was my husband's idea, not mine, and I'd never climbed a mountain before. And I, um, I asked my guide at the time if he had any advice for me. And over the course of the five days, the three pieces of advice that he gave me to actually get to the summit were, take the next step, but go slowly. Don't look up, and you're exactly where you need to be. And those three pieces of advice were really important for me because at the time I was someone who was like, okay, what's the next thing I need to climb? What's the next accomplishment? Nothing felt like enough. And he reminded me that like life is about the next step that we take.
[00:04:47] Sheela: It's not about the five-year plan. and the piece of advice of do not look up was because I kept looking up, especially the day of the summit, which just happens in the middle of the day. I kept looking up and comparing myself to others, and he reminded me of the importance of looking within versus.
[00:05:04] Sheela: Comparing yourself to, to others in their own path. And then the last piece around you're exactly where you need to be, um, was a reminder that like, we're always looking forward, or my tendency is to look forward. My tendency is to think about what's next. My tendency is to say, okay, like, um, this is how much, how much further I have to go.
[00:05:22] Sheela: And he reminded me that like, we should celebrate how far we've come. Rather than how far we need to go. Um, and so I think that the lesson there was just learning to trust myself. It's an ongoing process, but learning to trust myself, to carve my own path, um, to have trust in my own route, to sometimes take the scenic route and also, um, to ultimately celebrate like where, how far I've come in my life versus all the progress I still need to make.
[00:05:48] Dan: that's a, that's an excellent answer, I have to say. Very profound. And so, yeah. Good advice. Yeah, really good
[00:05:53] Pia: advice. Very good advice. At, at
[00:05:54] Sheela: Very hard to follow. Very hard to follow. It's a lifelong
[00:05:57] Dan: Yes. Yeah. simple but not easy as so many of these things are. Yeah, I bet that's hard, particularly. Yeah. It sounded for you like you were having to flip quite a lot of the things that had made you successful to that point, to take on those lessons, which is Yes.
[00:06:11] Dan: Sometimes get becomes quite hardwired, doesn't it? But actually this is a good segue into the next question for you, which is to just give us a little bit of a bio.
[00:06:18] Sheela: Yeah, so I expect the past 20 years, leading and building organizations at companies like Google, slack, and Salesforce. Um, most recently I was vice president at Slack, where I was also a co-founder of Future Forum, which is a research consortium. That was founded in 2020 when the pandemic had upended the way in which we work.
[00:06:39] Sheela: I'm also the co-author of How the Future Works, which is a bestselling book about flexible work and teams. But more importantly, it's how leaders can navigate change with intention and with purpose. In terms of bio as well, I'm not just an employee. I. I'm a mother of two young daughters, um, wife, daughter of elderly parents, and I'm constantly figuring out how to navigate, how to reframe my relationship with all the shoulds and the supposed toss in my life and figuring out who I truly can be.
[00:07:12] Pia: a lot to juggle.
[00:07:13] Sheela: It's a lot to juggle, but it's also getting comfortable with. Dropping balls and, and, uh, and maybe only juggling a couple things every once in a while, you know? Uh, so, so dropping the ball and realizing that that's not a reflection of you or, uh, your own worth.
[00:07:28] Dan: So, um, I think a really good place to start with maybe, your book?
[00:07:32] Sheela: Yeah. So, um, I know it's been a blur for many listeners, but in 2020 we basically changed the way in which we work overnight, and that was one of the reasons behind Future Forum was to guide leaders through a change in terms of not just how we work, but ultimately the experiences of employees. Uh, across organizations and making sure that people felt valued, seen and hurt.
[00:08:00] Sheela: So with Future Forum, we, um, conducted quarterly surveys to really understand the shifts that were happening in terms of how we were working, and ultimately like to give leaders a sense of, okay, these are the things that you need to focus on a couple years into our journey. So, 2021. Um. The feedback we were receiving was like, okay, I understand as a leader that we need to change how we're working, but I don't understand, like I don't have the guide, I don't have the tools, um, to help me get from where I am today to where I need to be.
[00:08:31] Sheela: You all seem like the perfect, um, set of people to, to write this book that gives us a guide. While the way that we work continues to change and will change in the future, I think that the underlying principles of the book and the seven steps that are outlined are focused on how leaders can shift from knowing all the answers to actually guiding their people with intention and with purpose.
[00:08:55] Sheela: And you know, there, there's a. Big chunk of this book that's dedicated to also, like, how do you hear from your, your employees, how do you input their, um, perspectives in your decision making? And ultimately how do you build a culture where people feel like they're trusted and they feel like they're appreciated versus continuing with the status quo.
[00:09:17] Pia: And, and what Sheela do you think has been sort of like the emotional journey for leaders from this time? So the, the changes that they're facing.?
[00:09:26] Sheela: Uh, a story I like to tell is about, um, one survey that we received that basically pointed out that leaders need to get more comfortable saying the dreaded words of, I don't know, uh, like how employees are basically saying leaders. We, we want our leaders to actually show a bit of humanity, some vulnerability.
[00:09:46] Sheela: They don't know all the answers. We have never been through a pandemic like this before, and it would, it was pretty funny. Like you'd go into a room full of leaders and you'd say, you need to get more comfortable saying, I don't know. And leaders would respond with like, the body language would just become so inward and be like, no, no, no, don't make me do it.
[00:10:03] Sheela: That's not my job. Uh, because we aren't hired to be, to say, I don't know, we're hired to be decisive. We're hired to know all the answers. so to answer your question, in terms of the emotional journey during that two to three year period where there was changes every single day for leaders to get more comfortable being like, I don't know what the five year plan is.
[00:10:26] Sheela: I don't know what this business is gonna look like in a year. That was hard for people to, to accept because that's not, that's a changing definition of what a leader is. But, um, you know, a, a big reframe is similar to the Kilimanjaro story.
[00:10:39] Sheela: It's like to be able to say, okay, this is, I don't know all the answers, but this is the next step that I think is best for this organization based on what I am hearing from my employees based on what I'm hearing from my peer group. Based on what my experience is running this business. but I think, I think that emotional journey of not having all the answers has been trying for, for many.
[00:11:01] Dan: that is a reward cycle, isn't it? And actually, when we are junior, when we're, when we're first in work, that is, that's what people expect of you. And it's quite difficult to break. Break that habit. And we certainly saw through that period where people had trouble getting that longer term clarity, it, they didn't create short term clarity.
[00:11:20] Dan: So people ended up with none.
[00:11:21] Pia: No, it,
[00:11:22] Dan: it was sort of left, left in that vacuum. So that Kilimanjaro approach of the next step, um, seems to be a very wise, wise approach. And
[00:11:31] Pia: I think we didn't know. When you're in it, you dunno how long that journey is. So you dunno whether you're making a step that's gonna last a month, six months, a year.
[00:11:40] Pia: Yeah. And, and there was just a lot of, lack of being sure of what any future direction was gonna look like and where we fitted into it. So I think people became very transactional too.
[00:11:52] Sheela: And it's still happening. And this is not at all a criticism, but I, I was just counting in my head where it's like this Labor Day was like the fifth RTO, like full-time, RTO mandate that we saw from a lot of leaders. So 2020 Labor Day, 20 21, 20 22, 20 33, 20 24. So for five years, leaders have been like, okay, now I have the definitive answer.
[00:12:12] Sheela: Without acknowledging like things have changed, and that we need to like kind of make some adjustments because things have changed. So to your point, there's like the short term clarity that fits into the long-term clarity. But one practice that I think we should take from that pandemic is like the short-term clarity is really, really, really important.
[00:12:31] Sheela: And so it's important for you to listen to your employees to develop that short term clarity, which will ultimately fit into the long term. Versus feeling like the long term strategy is your end all be all, and you need to figure out the steps to get in there.
[00:12:42] Dan: And um, Sheela, what are you, um, what's keeping you busy now?
[00:12:45] Sheela: Yes. So I left, um, slack in Future Forum last year, and I am, um, one of the millions of women who suffered from burnout, um, post pandemic and, and the way that I define burnout is the act of getting the same results over and over again with no agency to fix it. And I think that that definition might be interesting for this conversation around building teams today.
[00:13:08] Sheela: but I now feel like I have the agency in terms of my life, in terms of building areas that I'm truly interested in. Um, and so a lot of work I've been doing is writing and speaking particularly to, uh, audiences of women about how to reframe aspects of your life. Reframing your relationship with the ambition, with the word no, with Happiness and relevance with power as well as your mindset and, um, and the people that you surround yourself with as a way to reclaim the life that you wanna live.
[00:13:41] Sheela: Um, so a lot of it, a lot of the work I'm doing is how do you become unburdened by the shoulds and the opposed tos, and actually focus on who you can be as a human, as well as as a leader.
[00:13:52] Dan: I mean, that sounds amazing. Just, how would you describe the experience of the, if there's no such thing, but, uh, the typical woman that you are meeting along the way, you've had the, who have sort of under pressure from the woods and the shoulds, what's the typical work experience of that person who ends up in that burnout state?
[00:14:09] Sheela: Um, I could talk about this for hours, but I, last week I spoke to an audience of, um, 1200 women in Hawaii, and afterwards I had the honor of meeting with a round table of, um, women leaders. And the common theme was essentially. How do I, how do I like show up in a way that's true to me and offer that to my team?
[00:14:32] Sheela: How do I show up in a way that I, where I know who I am and what I stand for, versus feeling like I need to show up to prove myself. You're feeling like I need to show up to fit in with everybody else. And so when I talk about burnout, it's oftentimes a result of, um, the system in which we work not being built for, for many of us, for, for working parents and caregivers, for employees of color, for employees with disabilities.
[00:15:01] Sheela: Um. And for women as well. Like, I think it's, it's, it's trying to fit into the system and spending years and years trying to assimilate into a system that you have little agency to fix starts to wear on, on people. And I can, I can speak for myself that, that'll warn me.
[00:15:14] Dan: Yeah. And what, What does that feel like and where, where are those subtle? I'm sure these are subtle messages that are received. You know, it's, it's not, what does that feel like and what are, how do you receive those, those messages that might even be invisible to the people who are sending them.
[00:15:27] Sheela: Yeah, so, so a but a bunch of what I'm, um, talking about these days is the advice that I wish I had heard versus the advice that I heard. It's the mentorship that I wish I received, like the mentorship from the guiding Kilimanjaro was far more powerful than some of the mentorship I received throughout my career.
[00:15:43] Sheela: And, um, I'm just putting it bluntly, but uh. You know, so when I was a student at Harvard Business School, an alum gave me a piece of advice. This is just cracks me up to this day, to burn the candle on both ends until I'm 50 years old, and then to reacquaint myself with my friends and family. So essentially it's like hustle, grind, suffer until you're 50, and then maybe you'll meet your kids, or maybe you'll reacquaint yourself with your spouse or with your
[00:16:09] Dan: Yeah.
[00:16:11] Sheela: Yes. Um, and you know, in many ways, like I would say that women oftentimes receive the advice of like, hustle, grind, suffer in order to maximize your potential. But I make the argument that doing so in a way at to prove yourself versus to actually. Show up in terms of who you are. Like it, it's detrimental and it takes a toll.
[00:16:36] Sheela: And so I have, I've, I've received a bunch of advice, like, you know, keep up the game to show that it can be done. Keep playing the game to show it can be done. And I've realized it's not keep playing the game to show it can be done. It is play the game in a way that's true to how you wanna navigate your life and your career.
[00:16:53] Sheela: And then you can show what can be done. From that.
[00:16:56] Dan: Okay. Yes.
[00:16:57] Sheela: so, so I think oftentimes it's like this mindset of you need to assimilate, you need to, you know, do these, check these boxes. You need to adopt these rules of power in order to be deemed successful. But I think it's important for people to define either as a leader or you know, as an employee on a team.
[00:17:17] Sheela: Like what does success truly mean to you? And how do you structure your, your approach, the way that you think about your work, how you structure a life to reflect that?
[00:17:26] Dan: Uh, that, that seems like too tempting, a theme not to follow. Have you got another piece of advice, terrible advice that you've received?
[00:17:34] Sheela: Oh God. Most of them fall under the theme of like, do the thing, do the thing, conform. Conform, you know, prove yourself at some point, and then one day you'll be a model for others.
[00:17:44] Sheela: Um, or like, you know, I've gotten advice, I've very curly hair, so like I've gotten advice of like, you need to straighten your hair because you need to look professional. Um, You, you, you laugh too loudly. Like you need to tone that down because of these outdated norms of professionalism.
[00:18:00] Sheela: And
[00:18:01] Sheela: I can understand like people feel stuck as a result.
[00:18:04] Dan: even presidential candidates get that feedback.
[00:18:07] Sheela: That's true. Yes.
[00:18:10] Pia: Tell us how, how this could apply within teams.
[00:18:14] Sheela: Yeah. Uh, there's, there's a few things. I mean, I, I can talk all day about reframing areas of your life, but it's how does it actually. Um, apply PR practically in, in the team context. And I would say, I've spoken to hundreds of women at this point who are like, I have this way of living in terms of like, I have shelter and I have parents to, to help take care of.
[00:18:35] Sheela: I have other things. I can't always jump on that eight o'clock call, 8:00 PM call or have brunch at. You know, 7:00 AM on a on a Sunday. And something that we talked a lot about is how do you actually, um, codify how you work? Like how do we get teams to, on an individual level, codify? Like what is the way that you approach work, how do you like to be communicated with?
[00:18:56] Sheela: And ultimately, like what helps you succeed? And one thing that we did at Slack and a bunch of women actually spearheaded this, and I'm pulling mine up right now, is the personal, um, is building a personal user manual. And a personal user manual is basically a guide to yourself. It's the first thing that I ask people on my team to do when I was at Slack.
[00:19:17] Sheela: In terms of like the first project, does it actually fill out their own personal user manual? So I'm pulling mine up right now. Um, but my personal manual, consisted of like how I communicate, how I like to be communicated with, digital, like Slack specific and in-person communication styles.
[00:19:34] Sheela: What makes me happy at work, things that shaped me and things I'm a fan of and things I'm not a fan of. And then the last section is the most vulnerable, but it's like my own self-perceived flaws or things that I'm working on. And anytime someone joined my team, I had them fill out their own personal user manual and then we'd talk about it and I'd talk about mine as well.
[00:19:56] Sheela: And it was a great way to kind of get to speed in terms of like, what are people's motivators? We don't all share the same motivators. Um, what are people's boundaries so they can specify 'em versus learning trial by error that like, this person can't take that evening call because of x, y, and Z. So I think that that's like one real applicable, um, hands-on thing to do is like having people on your team build a a personal user manual.
[00:20:20] Sheela: And with that, uh, something that we write about in the book as well is team level agreements. So how do we get teams to then talk about how they wanna work together? And this was my favorite activity to do as a leader, was revising our team level agreements every quarter because it offered a conversation in terms of, Hey, this is what's working for our team, but like, we're really struggling here.
[00:20:44] Sheela: So a, a great example of this would be, um. I'm a night owl, so I do like my best work after 10:00 PM and people oftentimes I'd like get into Google Docs and comment on stuff and respond to things at that time, and people felt like they needed to respond in real time. And so while we're doing our team level agreements, I got the feedback of like, Hey, those late night. Google doc alerts, like are actually distracting. So I learned from that and I was like, how queue things up? But I'll press send, like, you at 10:00 AM the next morning. Um, so team level agreements have also been really, really helpful in terms of building psychological safety across teams, um, for people to talk about things that are working.
[00:21:22] Sheela: And that are not. and then the last thing I always think in threes, but the last thing I would say are even just like one of the rituals that you're bringing to your team, uh, on a regular basis. And rituals don't have to be long, elaborate practices like people think of like fasting for 18 hours or meditating for seven days. It's small habits that you can adopt on a regular basis that reflect. Priorities and the values of your team. And so what are the rituals that you can bring so that people do ultimately feel valued, seen and heard, and can speak up within your organization?
[00:21:55] Dan: The personal user manual I think really jumps out for me, as just a bit of genius idea. So, Particularly, let's say, if we talk about the, women in the workplace who are trying to fit in, What are the dangers there and how can you avert them that people just play it safe? They actually, their user manual is actually a, a sort of con, a manual of conformity. Um, and how do you sort of make that into a a genuine article rather than just, uh, oh, look how easy I am to work with. Don't worry about it.
[00:22:23] Sheela: Oh my gosh, 20-year-old Sheela, or 30-year-old Sheela would be like, look how easy I am to work with. Look how, yeah. so I, I, I can identify with that question 'cause I always, like, I used to always proud pride myself on like going with the flow and being very easy to work with. Um, things change I think when you become a leader as well.
[00:22:40] Sheela: And I think we need to celebrate like leaders who actually do the work on themselves and are self-aware. I don't think we celebrate that enough. Um, and so I think it's important for leaders to set the tone. As well in their own personal user manual in terms of like the things that they're working on and the things that for all works in progress, but the things that they need, you know, that they, that they need to continue to invest in. Uh, so I think that's one thing, especially as a woman leader, like it's to really set the model of. Of not having, trying to be everything to everyone trying to set the model of not conforming and playing the game. So I think that's one thing.
[00:23:17] Sheela: I think the other thing is, um, I've actually as a, as a leader, read someone's manual that's very like diluted, is that the word? Like not very strong. And I've actually given them the feedback where it's like, all right, this is your first project for the team is to do this and for us to talk about it. And like. Is this really all, is this it? You know? Um, so even getting comfortable having a conversation with people, like, what else would you add? Or it's, it's the responsibility of the manager and the leader to say, okay, like in this situation, let's role play. Like, how would you wanna operate
[00:23:48] Pia: yeah, that, that responsibility I think is a really good point. Uh, and, and I'd like to delve into that a little deeper. So, you know, considering sort of self-care on one hand and that you don't burn out, what's the absolute non-negotiables? A leader should have, what are they responsible for
[00:24:07] Sheela: Yeah. You know, it's funny, the, um, I feel like the words self-care and burnout go hand in hand. And when I think of like self-care, I think of like doing Like going, taking the day off. Right? Whereas burnout is like a sy systematic issue, right? Where it's like, it's, it's like you are facing the same results over and over again, and you have no agency to fix it.
[00:24:25] Sheela: and I learned because I would be like, oh, I'll just take a vacation and then I'll come back refreshed. And then did not have the agency to fix things. And so it, it, it ended up taking a toll after 20 years. Um, but to answer your question, in terms of what can leaders do, I think like. This could be a very interesting follow up conversation, but like even like what does leadership self care mean?
[00:24:45] Sheela: And I think the first thing is not necessarily how you lead, but also how who you surround yourself with. So are you getting, do you have the right feedback, best mechanisms in place, upward, downward in terms of continuing to grow and learn as a leader, but also laterally? Do you have a community in place?
[00:25:02] Sheela: Um, they always say like, it's lonely at the top. They also say like, um, the people within an organization that are the most lonely tend to be in the middle. So middle managers, and I think that it's important for leaders to invest in relationships of Pearse that can. That they can guide one another, especially during, during tumultuous time.
[00:25:23] Sheela: So that's, that's check one. In terms of, of self-care things, I think, I think, um, the second thing that leaders absolutely should invest in is some sort of coach. we, we oftentimes talk about executive coaches as like nice to haves, but to have that one person that you're talking to on a weekly basis, it's, it was instrumental for me.
[00:25:44] Dan: Yeah, that's good. There's, there's so much, so much there, Sheela. Thank you. But, and if you boil all this down, if you think about our listener, it could be team leader, a team member. It could be a, a woman working in a team. um, and they want to make a change tomorrow to make all this make, make the future work better for them and others. What would, where would you point them to start?
[00:26:04] Sheela: so we've talked a lot these last few minutes around the importance of taking the next step, if you need to move beyond the next step. The piece of advice that I would, would also give is we are so centered and focused on what are our goals, what's our plan? Um, what do we wanna achieve?
[00:26:21] Sheela: And I would encourage you to just think about on an individual level, what is your mission like, you know, asking yourself the question, who do I wanna be and where do I wanna go? And what does the mission look like when you ask yourself those questions? As an example, when I was in my mid thirties, my goal was to make it to BP by the age of 40.
[00:26:41] Sheela: And I did it awesome. But it wasn't life changing. It wasn't like, okay, I checked out this box and I'm like, I'm, my life is complete. It was like, okay, now I'm onto the next goal. But I've recently kind of, uh, explored more along the lines of like, how do I shift from my goal to my admission? And my mission now is to help women and girls feel valued, seen and heard.
[00:27:02] Sheela: And when I have a mission like that, there's so many different opportunities that now open up, like new paths have opened up as well for me. And so that has helped me. That reframe has helped me, make a big change in my life that I previously didn't think was possible 'cause I was so constrained, constrained by like the next goal I had to achieve.
[00:27:19] Dan: So it sounds like the difference there might be that you had a previous goal, that your goal was a sort of a role. A position, which is, which is, uh, definitely ambitious to a mission, which is more about the impact you'd have on a specific, other groups, on, on other people.
[00:27:35] Sheela: Yeah. And, and it's also just opened up opportunities that I, that probably wouldn't have fit under the constraint of the goal. Like it's getting involved in organizations that promote robotics for girls in the classroom. It's an opportunity to coach my kids' soccer team. It's an opportunity to speak on stage in front of thousands of women. Something I never thought I would've been able to do 'cause it didn't fit under this nice, gift rappa bow, of a goal. So it's, it's, yes. It's all, it's, it's expanded my view of what's possible for my own life as well.
[00:28:05] Pia: And finally, for our, for our listeners recommendation media book. I couldn't say record. No. A record. A record. Could be a record. Yeah. It could be
[00:28:14] Pia: vinyl's
[00:28:15] Dan: back. Vinyl back could be,
[00:28:17] Sheela: It.
[00:28:18] Sheela: That's a tough question. I, I read a ton. I read about a book a week, and I'm looking right now on my bookshelf as to like, what's one book. But I would encourage you all to, um, to also not necessarily combine yourself to just reading business or self-help books, but also reading books that are, um, fiction
[00:28:36] Sheela: because they, they, I, I, I have found that a mix of fiction and nonfiction actually help expand my worldview. As well as, expand, like just my curiosity and my imagination. And I think that we haven't talked much about this, but curiosity and imagination are critical traits for a next effective leader. And so mix it up versus feeling like you need to just continuously be reading self-help in order to, to grow and learn as leader.
[00:29:01] Pia: Perfect.
[00:29:02] Dan: That's a helpful tip. That's gonna help, I think, in our listener in many ways. I think. Yeah, I think we do the same, don't we? We, we mix that up a little bit and um, yeah.
[00:29:10] Pia: I've got into historical fiction,
[00:29:12] Dan: his Yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:13] Pia: Which I never, ever thought I would do.
[00:29:14] Dan: And it's amazing.
[00:29:15] Pia: But I think sometimes you wanna be able to see things over a longer period of time. Yeah. And now I actually get the life lessons. Particularly when things are tough. 'cause then you realize that there have been many, many, many tough times and people have overcome them. And so you draw strength from how other people have, have approached that, I think.
[00:29:32] Dan: yeah, it's really good and a great bit of advice. Thank you Sheela, and among many great pieces of advice we've, you've given us today. So thank you so much for being on the show. It's been wonderful to talk to you.
[00:29:42] Sheela: Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun.
[00:29:44] Dan: One thing I found really refreshing about what she just said there was about this women being clear about, About them, you know, their own self when they are entering the workplace, when they're in the workplace. I was very uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable about Cheryl Sandberg's book and Lean In, and I've never used that expression because I just don't like, I mean, it's not up to me to like, it's for women to like it or not, but I, I understand that I'm
[00:30:11] Pia: You're, you're gonna be on shaky, privileged white,
[00:30:13] Pia: white ground.
[00:30:15] Dan: So it's not for me to like or not like, but I felt uncomfortable with her saying that women had to basically be more like men to fit in. I can see there might be a need for that, but I just thought, well, it just feels like a really. A transitional phase somehow. And then I feel that if, if people can, if it's possible, despite the sort of the, the strong current in the other direction, can women establish themselves as their, as their true selves in the workplace rather than just imitating men?
[00:30:48] Dan: that seems to be a better way to go if, however hard that is.
[00:30:52] Pia: You've gotta have space to do that though, Dan. You've gotta have a safe spot to be able to do that. And a, and some of those environments are not, they're inherently patriarchal. And so women I think
[00:31:04] Pia: feel that they they have to make a noise. They have to, then we have to sort of almost. Push the dial the other way in order to be able to, to be heard, to feel safe, to feel, feel like they're able to contribute. So we don't have enough of the middle ground sometimes. I mean, that's the, I mean, you can't go in there with a genders approach on either side really.
[00:31:27] Dan: yes, I, I just, I, I think that's exactly right. I was just disappointed that Cheryl's answer, which unfortunately for me got a lot of legs was well be more like a man just doesn't seem, that doesn't seem helpful for anyone. But equally not fitting in, not aligned, not sort of subjugating yourself to the culture is so hard and, um, and actually disadvantages women.
[00:31:49] Dan: So I can absolutely see,
[00:31:51] Dan: see why that would be.
[00:31:52] Pia: and it's more about what's the right behaviors that are gonna, deliver things for the customer that you're serving and, and enable you to get the most out of everybody around you.
[00:32:01] Pia: and now that we are, we have, we, we are seeing the sort of. At the beginning, ramifications of post-election.
[00:32:09] Pia: This is going to be interesting because we may have a mindset where we see that this more bully boy tactic, regardless of which sex you belong to
[00:32:19] Pia: is sort of equals power and equals success. You know? Trump may elect a very strong set of individuals, but they may never make a team and may never be able to
[00:32:32] Pia: make the effect that they're creating.
[00:32:35] Pia: So, standby listeners
[00:32:36] Dan: Yes. Is this gonna be a team in name only? I, I agree. And, and I, I think that's a really good point, Peter, that, that this is a really important message that we want women to be able to be themselves, I think, and, and not to be able, not just map themselves to, to these old male, um, stereotypes which have to change anyway.
[00:32:56] Dan: And, and it's that sense of self team system, isn't it? Yourself is important, but you do fit within a team and within a system where the customer needs to be served. So I I know that, um, you know, psychologically and I think in developmental psychology, we have our sort of sense of self and this, uh, but we then grow up and we need to fit into it.
[00:33:16] Dan: Into a group and we subjugate ourselves a little bit, our self-worth to fit in with the group. And that's what tends to happen. And of course, that can be overplayed. and there's, it's, yeah, it's just that middle ground of holding that balance where you are adapting enough but not feeling like you are betraying self, um, to do that.
[00:33:35] Dan: And certainly women in the workplace who are, as we said at the top of the show, are still disadvantaged In terms of opportunity pay, you name it, that, um, there's a real pressure on them to, to just sort of Yeah. Subjugate themselves and, and we need to resist that as much as possible, I think.
[00:33:54] Pia: you, end up being what you think everybody else wants you to be rather than actually being, you know, your true self. I've just finished, the audio book of Miranda Harts. I haven't been entirely honest with you, so listener, if you want a slightly English eccentric. a bit of honesty there, but also some really great lessons about actually do finding your real identity of who you are as a person Living your life from that rather than what you think you should be or what you have been shaped to be, but what you can be. And I think that's probably the, the essence of, of what our conversation with Sheela is about. It's like, who can you be and how do you be that person rather than what you should be.
[00:34:35] Dan: Love it. Perfect. I, and I know p, she's in many ways, you're one of your role models, Miranda hart. So.
[00:34:41] Pia: she's more trip overs and horsey jumps and gallops than I would. I'm just in insanely jealous that I'd like to be doing that.
[00:34:49] Dan: just a brilliant one. And I think also, let's not forget the, the ability to bring some lightness, some levity to this, to these situations in some cases. So, um, but, uh, great recommendation. But that's it for this episode. We, not Me, it's supported by Squadify. Squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening now and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:35:20] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.