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Non traditional relationships are becoming more common and yet are at odds with a lot of societal norms. We asked Magenta, as someone who hosts workshops and coaches people, what do they say makes it worth it?
BiCurean takes typically combative topics and teaches them to play nice. Our view is the mainstream reactionary rhetoric divides us and only helps those invested in the status quo. We seek to find answers beyond the most obvious.
Join host Aicila as she digs into topics ranging from social and political to geeky and fun. Aicila is looking for the "BiCurean Moment"- the point where contradictions meet or are embraced.
BiCurean was conceived of in 2011 by Aicila as a podcast and originally created as a blog. On hiatus since 2021, she's been eager to start back up, and 2025 will be the year she does. Watch for new episodes, a new format, and just her as the host.
https://bio.bicurean.com for more info
1.21 Freedom to Commit with Magenta
INTRO: Welcome to the BiCurean podcast. Where we explore and embrace the seeming contradictions of life. What actually is BiCurean you ask? What's happening right now in terms of the divisions between us is a focus on that which is different. And lack of understanding and empathy for people's beliefs is no longer an excuse. And it is in the differences we carry in ourselves that we find the BiCurean moment. When you really dig into something you are going to see some depth to it. It's not just a race thing, it's not just a conservation thing. It's letting go of the 'or' to make room for the 'and'. We embrace all of you. Welcome to the BiCurean.
A: Hi, I'm Aicila.
E: And I am Erik.
A: And I'm very excited to have Erik introduce our topic today.
E: So while we were at Burning Man several weeks ago, ... we were in center camp and there was a stage where people can share stories. A certain co -host of mine may have been sharing her stories on that stage/ And the host really got my attention talking about workshops that she does ... in the polyamory community. And we ended up talking to her and she is a polyamory coach. And for those not familiar with the term polyamory, it refers to the act of having multiple relationships ... It means many loves, but maybe, you know, a married couple that dates outside of that. There's a lot of different options for it. And I thought it'd be fascinating to have someone come on the show and kind of talk about that. So this week we have a special guest. And if you'd like to introduce yourself?
M: Hi my name is Magenta, I am a poly relationship coach. I specialize in ... obviously polyamory and kink, queer issues. Mostly just kind of trying to help people navigate their way through.
E: Excellent, well we are very pleased to have you on the show. And we and we should say that we actually met while we were at Burning Man, something our listeners are familiar that we did. And I saw you... essentially you had run of your stage and you took an opportunity to kind of work through some of the things that you were doing at a workshop. And I was fascinated by the things you were talking about. And the stories you were sharing so ... I made it a point to tell Aicila that we'd love to have you on. So
A; He gave me a job, and said go talk to her.
M: Very gracefully done!
E: Exactly, but ... so maybe you can tell us a little bit about like day to day what you're actually kind of doing in that community?
M: Well ... so I do do workshops ... I try to, one of the things I focus on is helping people transition from monogamy to polyamory. It can be a fraught process. It sounds really hard. It can be ... I read somewhere that the first six months are the hardest. And I think that that's true. So I kind of, one of my goals is helping people get through that first six months. And you know try to avoid a lot of the the standard pitfalls. ... I give workshops on you know, yeah intro to polyamory ... I occasionally give workshops also on on kink issues, consent, ... communication that kind of stuff (interruption) sex education stuff ... yeah.
A: What would you say the common pitfalls are? Or the way to avoid them which is probably an even better ... one or two. You don't have to give your whole secret list away.
M: No actually I don't really you know I don't really have any secrets. I actually to be very open because as much as this is the way I make my living, it's also something I feel really passionate about. And like my whole goal is to help people feel better and more whole in their relationships. So like, I have no secrets. ... I think one of the things that I keep running across is people who are, who get into, who discover polyamory. And then they'll say to me ... that it's hard and therefore they must be bad at poly. They'll say you know I, I feel jealous sometimes. Of course you do. That doesn't make you bad at poly, it means you're human in this society. And I think one of the things that really gets people is that ... we have so ... we've been trained to not think polyamory is possible. We've been trained to see anything like polyamory as danger zone. And so people get in there and they don't realize how much social emotional baggage they're carrying. And it kind of bites them in the butt. Because all of us here they're, they're philosophically, theoretically all about it. But when it comes to the reality of it, it triggers us in ways we don't expect. And I think that's what, you know, where a lot of the the initial stuff comes out.
A: You say that about the social piece and it just made me think of, you know I've been married to man, and I've been married to a woman. And when I would talk to my parents about problems in my relationship with my husband, they would say things like marriage is hard or it takes work. And when I would talk about problems in my relationships with my wife, they would say things like maybe you aren't gay. So, I just, it's interesting to me that you say that because I had that experience in terms of my communication. So I can understand that someone would also have that inside of themselves.
M: You know one of the reasons I went into this field was because I had several friends who were poly. They tried to go to a therapist ... you know a couples counselor, whatever, and ... for example I had two friends who were absolutely incompatible in every way except for the way they handle polyamory. One of them was a slob and one of them was a neatnick ... They wanted different thing., They didn't want to live in the same places. They were completely incompatible. Their communication around polyamory was beautiful. It was the only thing that worked. And when they went to relationship ... coaching or therapy or whatever it was ... the only thing that that there therapist could talk about was the idea that the reason that they were struggling was because of the polyamory. Not the fact that they don't even want to live in the same state.
E: You know that actually brings up something interesting because ... part of what I find fascinating is that, you know we talk a lot about L. G. B. T. Q. + issues. And- and Aicila has experience in both of those worlds. And I think poly is one of those things in society right now that people are getting their head around but it's still, like, not even to the point of wondering you know about trans gendered bathroom use or something right? Like people... and in some ways it's not gonna intersect in the same way but ... like you just said you know therapist would just gravitate towards "here's your issue, it's cause you're poly". What ... what do you think society does to a lot of the people you talk to just in general because I don't feel like this is something that's just widely accepted?
M: No, it's really not. Dan Savage said something about he feels like poly people are kind of where gay people were fifteen years ago. ... And I think part of that is polyamory goes against so many of our social norms right? So ... even with with things like, say, gay marriage. The way that that became acceptable was it was this idea, Oh! Gay people want basically heteronormative relationship models too, so they can be like straight people too. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with ... monogamy or any of that. But it was all if you want to get married too, and you want to have a dynamic that we recognize in our culture as acceptable, well maybe we can make a little room for you.
A: Well and..
M: But polyamory is just like, it's not acceptable. It's so far out and it is those of us are ... sorry let me just finish this thought is that it's so unacceptable, that when people are trying to find a dynamic that works for them, all of that social condemnation and fear gets in the way of them finding a dynamic that can work for them as individuals. So it hamstrings them.
E: That makes complete sense.
A: Well and it was the argument against legalizing same sex marriage.
E: Yeah Aicila did a lot of work on -
M: They're gonna want, you know, group marriage -
A: And I'll just never forget, like, the first presentation I ever did for the Legal Marriage Alliance of Washington to this classroom of students and someone asked you know will this make poly, polygamy or multiple person marriage more possible? And I was like well it's a different legal argument. And I don't really understand why you care.
M: I don't know, Yes?
A: But you know the the legal arguments are really different but I just didn't get... for me it was just sort of like why do you care? But for a lot of people that, that argument like what you're talking about, that was the slippery slope argument.
M: You know one of the things that I see in with polyamory is that ... I had a... it's a romantic notion. The polyamory can allow relationships to work that don't work under the monogamous dynamic. ... When ... for some people having polyamory in their lives allows them to maintain the sort of socially acceptable version of like ... our idea of a committed relationship. It's just a set of committed relationships,. But for example, I know a couple where they'd been married for a number of years. They love each other dearly. She realized she was a lesbian. In the standard monogamous dynamic, it's over. They're done.
A: That's what happened to me!
M: Right! And instead the two of them, it was really hard. It was challenging. ... It, it was not easy. They had to both grow a lot. But what they ended up doing they, they decided to become polyamorous. They stopped having sex with each other cause that wasn't working for her. But they realized that the life that they had built together was important. And the love that they had had not changed just because she recognized that ... sexually she wasn't there with him. And so instead now they have a long healthy beautiful marriage. She has another partner, a woman that she is very you know she spends about half of her time with both of them. And she also has this amazing relationship that she deeply loves and honors with her husband. ... With the, when you when you think of monogamy has been the absolute requirement, if there are things that don't match you are screwed. It's just over.
E: Well and I think -
M: Though polyamory allows people. It's actually you know it's it's a beautiful romantic sweet thing. It allows people that under the monogamous dynamic could not stay together to build individual dynamics that work for the both of them.
E: To that point, I'm I'm going to borrow a term that I've heard from polyamory and polyamorous people a lot but serial monogamy is something that gets solved a lot of the time with polyamory. Because some people you know whether it's newness or ... not knowing how to stay committed for long term and not really being able to lock into a relationship. I I personally have plenty of friends that I know that have broken out of the habit of basically dating somebody for two to three years and then ending it. And then starting another relationship ... and actually had long term relationships that work by embracing exactly what you're talking about.
M: Right. I think I am always a little wary when people think that sometimes polyamory really does fix all the problems. And and so you have friends that that way that worked with. I always always worry a little whenever somebody has been a- a serial cheater; that always raises some red flags. Because sometimes that dynamic is more about the subterfuge. You know, the excitement of the sneaking that kind of does it. ... So with with people that have had years of serial monogamy are like just that you know the date somebody and that as soon as the newness wears off I'm gonna date somebody else, poly can be a great thing. But there's also probably going to have to be an amount of therapy and self analysis because those habits are hard to break. And with polyamory having a determination to nurture and grow an existing relationship. And not be wooed off by excitement for new relationship energy, a new person, is something that's really important and sometimes gets forgotten. Poly people ditch partners for new exciting shiny partners just as often as monogamous people do.
E: Yeah. And and again I think that makes total sense too. And I... cheating I do think is something inherent to certain personality types and people who don't necessarily understand what aspect of them... I ... I would not guess that being poly would solve many issues for a serial cheater. But as far as people who are seeking newness and stuff like that ... I have one friend for sure, who definitely, it's easy to tell they like the newness but they have one solid relationship and then they kind of go through the new relationship cycle over and over ... And they always end amicably, y'know, with their other partners- if they end at all. Sometimes they just become a loose, long term loose thing ... But yeah that's definitely a lot of... there, there's something to that. I don't think, I don't think it's something in my mind that would ever solve cheating.
M: I've occasionally like when I've been on ... on my own dating adventures ... I meet people a lot who will say that they ... found poly because ... monogamy didn't make sense and they they tried it but it never really worked, it never felt satisfying, it felt unnecessarily restrictive ... And then I have met people who are like you know yeah I cheated on everybody I've ever been with and then I finally found poly and I... That does set off a little, my like, okay have you done the self work? Because deep deep honesty and brave communication are so requisite, and self awareness, are so requisite for being poly. ... That those habits, yeah there are things that have to be nurtured. And ... so when people have a long history of of cheating I always want to suggest a lot of self work before pulling more people into that. And making sure that this isn't just a way to excuse not having to be fully present or fully honest. You know people sometimes jump into polyamory when really they just want no strings attached sex. And they just call themselves poly because it's more socially acceptable.
A: Yeah ... I'm wondering, so I I'm a, not only do I do a podcast, I listen to them. And one of my favorites is "The Hidden Brain", I don't know if you're familiar with it?
M: No I haven't.
A: Okay, so they, they had a podcast sometime in last few months called "Why is Marriage Hard?". And at the end of it actually they talked about non monogamy as part of, which I thought was, I mean this is an NPR podcast, like so I thought that was really kinda neat. And one of the things that they talked about, the theory this one guy had, was that marriage used to be more about survival. And ... his theory is that some of these different relationship structures are the result of marriage kind of moving up on the hierarchy of Maslow's needs. And so now relationships are more about ... connecting and thriving than just about surviving. So the a good quote unquote marriage ... would, is now more a part time job. Whereas it used to be more a survival mechanism for the the people involved. And therefore just two people. Yeah. I recommend that the episode but also was I thought it was a really interesting way to look at that, that difference between, cause when I look at like what my grandparents had and then when I look at what people today expect from their relationships, it's a very different set up. M: Very different. Yeah I think we we... when you don't need a partner to survive, when it when a woman doesn't need a partner in order to you know be accepted in society or have a place to live, you know ... it becomes much more about is this relationship satisfying. ... At a deep emotional level does it feel /supportive? Do I feel like I can grow as a human being? ... Whereas I think that wasn't, it was more, yeah like you were saying, it was more... can we stay employed and pay our bills and raise our kids? And then we're kind of done. We don't really look at relationships that way anymore.
E: And and I can even you know bring up something that I've seen ... I've, I've seen plenty of people bring up poly as kind of the ultimate expression. I saw this on CNN at one point, this was years ago, I don't even know if we could find the story for the show notes. But it was a woman being interviewed about being poly and she said I see this as part of the women's sexual revolution; it's kind of the culmination of that. So... and it it brings me back to a book that I know a lot of people who are poly have read or heard of, and it's worth checking out if you want more information, called The Ethical Slut. Which did sort of talk about a lot of, you know the ways in which women can be empowered to reach the things they want for their own sexual needs. ... so yeah I mean along those lines it is I think for some people that I've talked to definitely a key part in them feeling expressed as full humans at this point. Absolutely, and actually there's something, something in that where ... sexism, patriarchy kind of pops up in some parts of polyamory culture too. There's a thing called the "one penis policy". Which is a dynamic... it really pretty much is never going to work. ... And for once- I actually just recently interacted with somebody who has made the "one penis policy" work for them mostly because she's primarily queer. So she's comfortable with her husband, she said you know he hasn't come around yet. And she's like, she knows it's hypocritical, but that's where they're at. So I have interacted with one person where the "one penis policy" worked. But this sort of idea that, you know, ... even within polyamory there are still people carrying on to this like old cultural baggage that says, you know, queer relationships aren't real. They're not legitimate. They're nothing to be worried about or threatened by, but only one penis. I actually I also met a woman who she had a a one vagina policy for her ... bisexual boyfriend. You know, he was allowed to sleep with other men but not other women. Because in her mind, only hetero relationships were a threat.
A: Well I also wonder if there's a... there's also a piece, cause I can hear that as 'I understand why you want to be with someone who is offering an aspect of something that you can't have with me'.
M: Right.
A: And and I'm not saying that this is a good ... and I don't know a way to go. And I get the threat part. And I also can see how it would be difficult to wrap your thinking around or come to terms with what is it that makes that intriguing .. if we have it? And ... it boils down to parts which is from well my background not a great way to go... sorry No you're fine I'm just thinking it through, I'm like it boils down to parts which isn't what I would say a good way to go based on my own background. But but there's something in there that I can see, there's a way, I don't know. ...
M: Often people when they come into when they decide to go for the one penis policy ... it's... that would be the case of usually it's that a hetero couple ... where there's a declaration that the guy gets to sleep with other women and the woman gets to sleep with other women so... And in that it's expecting... because it's scary to have your partner be with somebody who seems like you. You know for exactly the reasons you're mentioning. But it is expecting that the woman in the the partnership, the wife or girlfriend or whatever, ... has to do all the emotional labor of dealing with her husband having another girlfriend.
A: That makes sense.
E: That he doesn't have to do any of that emotional labor to be okay with his wife having another boyfriend. ... There... women is something that pops up a lot; movies, music, historical, you know I I do a lot of a living history stuff; women so often, our whole value is in our ... fidelity. You know, the the romantic story of the woman who waits while her husband, while her boyfriend, goes off to sea for ten years. And when he comes back, if she has gotten married because she thought he was dead? She is a failure as a woman. It is a tragedy and a betrayal. But, if she has waited on that cliff side pining away for the last ten years, she has value. And so there's a lot of, that kind of dynamic comes up a lot where men are often still, and we're we're working really hard to get rid of this kind of dynamic, but there's still an expectation that it's okay for men to go kinda tramp it up but a woman loses value if she sleeps with a guy. She's less special. Women often get really scared that if they sleep with another man that their, their male partners are going to devalue them. And men often worry that their wives aren't gonna want them if they sleep with another woman.
E: And that just sounds indicative of where we're at in society though right now. That's...
M: absolutely.
E: I don't even know that that's specifically has anything to do with poly. That's very much does the cultural norms that poly goes against.
M: And it it's something that pops up within polyamory. And polyamory when it's done well, and right, it's something that actively addresses those tropes and stands them on their end. ... You have families where men actively support their wives or their girlfriends or whatever. And I am talking alot about hetero relationships. ... ... But where men are actively supporting and celebrating their female partners having other men in their lives and vice versa. And there are relationships where, you know, women are celebrating their male partners' queerness. Which is also a thing, which within standard society is just not something you're allowed to do. Yeah. So ... it's, there's a lot of turning these tropes on their heads and trying to redefine what it means to be ... a loving, connected, valuable couple, or not couple, but like a relationship.
E: Yeah absolutely. so I had one last question and this one's kinda deep but, ... I'm just curious to get your opinion on it. ... Obviously we talk a lot on the show about LGBT Q. ... issues and that sort of thing and and how those relate in society. I have gay friends that are poly, straight friends that are poly, and even some poly friends they consider themselves to be Q. or plus on the LGBTQ scale. I'm curious how you've run into and interacted with people around the idea of poly being a choice as a lifestyle or an imperative that maybe some people feel this is who I am or whatever. ... Just curious just to have your thoughts on that.
M: Well you know, I think that is it a choice or is it innate ... if you're gay you can choose to be in a hetero relationship for your entire life and you can just be miserable. It won't make you straight... So you know yes everything, to a degree, is a choice but that doesn't mean that it's a choice that should be taken away. ... Let's see if I can collect my thoughts on this. ... Poly is ... polyamory is a choice just like every life decision that we make is a choice. ... Sometimes it's a choice between joy and satisfaction in one's life and emptiness and sorrow in one's life. And you, so, for example for me, I 'm - I was poly before I met my husband. ... And ... then we were functionally monogamous for a decade. It was just the right place for us to be at that time, polyamory was always on the table, but it wasn't where we were at. So at that point in time, we chose to be monogamous. And then later, we realized it wasn't working for us anymore and we chose poly. ... At this point, I don't think we could go backwards. So yes and no. ... I think the reason that whether ... or not it's a choice is so loaded is because the people who want us to choose differently think that, well if it's a choice just choose what I want you to. ... Yeah?
A: I was going to say, I know that ... coming out that was a big question. .... Coming out, I was in a very conservative religion and so there was a lot to that for me; and people definitely had the, you know, 'this is a choice' thing going on. And I'm actually bisexual so in some ways I could choose to only have romantic relationships with men and fit in just fine. And what I really got to was I don't choose how I feel, I do choose how I act. And, and I can, like you were saying, I can, I can act in accordance with what I know to be true about who I am and how I want to build my life or I can act in opposition to it. I do have that choice. And the other thing that I, I feel like is really important to also express is that- let's say it is a hundred percent a choice. There a lot of choices we protect, for example the freedom of religion, and no one would ever say well -
M: You're choosing to be a Christian why don't you just choose something different?
A: Exactly, no one would ever do that because it would be so disrespectful. Because it's such a personal and intimate choice to show up in a faith and to practice that faith. And and yet somehow there's this belief that the equivalent of love and relationship is somehow not to be respected. And I find that to be disappointing at best. And I'm interested in changing that.
M: Same here. I think I think you answered the ... that is exactly how it doesn't... Everything's a choice. ... And the choice between whether you want to feel happy and whole in yourself ... that is a valid choice to make. ... And so the idea that you know ... because the argument's always if it's a choice, just don't do it. Well I can choose to be miserable. ... That's not the choice I choose to make. Exactly the same way ... gay folks forcing themselves into marriages and staying there and sticking it out. Yeah, they chose that. That didn't make them love it. It didn't make it healthy or happy or joyful for them. Probably messed everybody in that relationship, including their partners and their children pretty freaking miserable, but you can make that choice. I don't know I feel a little strange about the idea of poly being labeled as queer except that I do see queer is a wonderful umbrella term for people that don't fit the standard narrative. ... I don't know actually I think I probably don't want to pontificate about that because I don't ... I'm on the fence but I've been seeing it lately. ... I'm not sure where I stand with it. I think anything that allows people to recognize- It's just looking for validity. ... Queerness has become in like especially, you know, ... amongst people in my ... on the left and everything being queer has become acceptable. Being queer is, is recognized and it's ... it's accepted and it's recognized. And so by trying to make poly part of that it's saying "please recognize me too, please see that these relationships are real". And ... and there's one of the reasons why ... I recognize that as so important is for some people poly is like, I've got a primary partner. I've got a main whatever relationship, nesting partner. And then I've got people that I kind of play around with. And then it's like, well that it is kind of like ... it's fun time. But there are people for whom their poly relationships are their partners. I mean I have, I have my husband, I have my nesting partner, and I have another life partner. And that is a relationship that were I not in the East Bay and a poly relationship coach, I would probably have a lot of a harder time having that recognized and seen and accepted. ... And so it is really understandable for poly people to be trying to say like, look we're left of standard, we are out of the norm, and we are being ... treated as poorly as queer people are and have been.
E: Well and that's a whole 'nother ball of wax for another show, but, I mean realistically ... getting lumped into the Q in that would possibly have some recognition from a legal standpoint because recognized is recognized. And recognized legally is a whole different thing. And right now the majority of poly people do not fall under that. They may have protections from being fired at work for being gay but they would not have a protection from being fired at work because their boss just isn't into their weird poly lifestyle. So- M: Yeah. E: You know, I think that's something that we probably do a whole 'nother show on. ... but to wrap up here maybe you can share some information about yourself and where people can find you on the internet and that sort of thing. M: Absolutely thank you. ... So my website is poly coach dot org, poly coach dot org. ... I'm also on Facebook @ polyamorycoaching. ... I offer a free thirty minute phone call or skype call. I do a lot of stuff ... on phones and Skype because... I want to be accessible. Like, in my area, in the East Bay, there's, there are a lot of poly coaches. There are a lot of poly therapists, not as many as I want there to be but they're out there. ... So yeah, like, I want to be accessible to people where ... contacting somebody who understands this lifestyle is maybe a little more challenging. ... So I offer a free thirty minute phone conversation. So if you have like a, just a quick question or a thought, something you want to work out, we can just talk for half an hour and I will give you whatever help and advice or whatever support that I can. And you can also use that time to find out if we resonate, if my style of coaching resonates for you, if you're wanting to pursue getting coaching. ... Because of course just like with a therapist you know it's such an individual connection. ... So I just, you know, you can call me, you can look at my website, poly coach dot org. I think that's about it.
E: Excellent.
M: And I love talking to more poly people. Connecting with me on Facebook at polyamory coaching is also a great way. I try to a post interesting articles and host good conversations and love to grow that community.
E: Yeah.
A: Well thank you so much for being on the show, we really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today.
E: Yeah we'll definitely have you back.
M: My pleasure, thank you.
E: Thank you take care. Welcome to the BiCurean moment. And on this show, we're going to do something we haven't done before.
A: What are we gonna do?
E: We have a dual BiCurean moment.
A: Whoa!
E: Because we both had this one and so we're just gonna talk about it shortly here instead of talking about individual ones. And it came up a few weeks ago. And we live in a world where I got a DNA test a couple of months ago and found out exactly what percentage of various different things I am, and I was surprised to see some African in there. Very little, point one percent, actually I think that the total on that was like point three. ... Primarily European, mostly Italian, all things I knew and I could corroborate based on my experiences of growing up. But a few weeks ago Trump said a derogatory statement- Pocahontas, the word itself and the person itself is not derogatory but calling somebody that ... in an insulting way is derogatory. About Elizabeth Warren, who felt the need to go get a DNA test to prove that she actually had some some amount of Native American in her.
A: She had, I guess, told stories of her family and these family stories of native ancestors and... so went and got the DNA tests simply to corroborate the story that my family shared actually are rooted in some form of genetic accuracy.
E: Well and not to mention that she needed to .... defend herself against something the president said. Which is disgusting in and of itself but I'm not sure I want to live in a world where we have to do that because it got even worse after that.
A: Yeah well after she released her results then there was the little or a certain amount of backlash also from the Cherokee Nation, which it looks like retr- retracted when she was able to express that she wasn't saying I took a test and that means I'm part of the Cherokee Nation.
E: Well and she even came out right after it's not trying to lay claim to being a part of that group. ...
A: I'm simply trying to corroborate that these stories in my family have some connection to some form of fact.
E: So the whole thing disgusts me.
A: Well there you go how do you really feel about this Erik?
E: I mean the whole situation, not, not any, not Elizabeth Warren, but just you know like the backlash on both sides. We talk on the show and with people in our daily lives about inclusion and different ethnicities and all of that stuff and now we have to prove it? And, and face backlash if we prove it from not only the people who insulted us but also the people who, you know, are concerned about the amount somebody is of something? I mean...
A: Well and I think it's the distinction between heritage and experience. So you know I walk through the world and I look really white and my heritage happens to also be primarily European and Celtic so they kind of match... However, somebody who's heritage is more diverse and yet also appears white or has been created white in the case of Italians ... I think there's something there for folks in terms of the ways in which as much as we don't want it to be true that that experience and the ways in which people of color are treated is so different. And I think people take it to mean Oh I know what your experience is. And and I don't feel like that's what's being said however I can understand why would be taken to mean that.
E: Yeah. And I mean for me, I just think we have to be careful because different groups want diversity and inclusion and ... as a culture we have to be careful not to draw those lines in the sand to keep people out of it because they're not something enough.
A: That's a dangerous line.
E: Yeah so, ... yeah it was just something that's been on my mind for the past few weeks. Just thinking about that and where we're at as a society trying to build bridges and have inclusive talk and have people okay with being who and what they are. And then facing any kind of backlash from that's just, you know... my advice to people listening would be-
A: Calm down!
E: Yeah.
A: Sorry!
E: Calm down. But primarily just just make sure that you don't become the monster you're fighting.
A: Yours is a better message.
E: So thanks for listening. If you have ideas, feedback, thoughts please find us on social media. BiCurean on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Or you can always give us a call at 720-507-7309 or email us at podcast at BiCurean dot com. Thanks for listening.
A: And if you like the show, please to review it on your plat- listening platform of choice. Your reviews make a big difference. Thank you and have a great week.