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This show is made for B2B marketers who are tired of the same old advice. Ugi Djuric, CEO of ContentMonk and B2B Vault, sits down with some of the best minds in B2B to talk about what’s really working, what’s broken, and what nobody tells you about growing a company. This is the show where people share their deepest insights and secret knowledge they wouldn't otherwise share on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (00:00.108)
reasons that there's so much noise and crap in the market is because we're not growing by market demands, we're growing by venture capitalist or PE backed demands. What we're trying to do through these AI generated or mass outbound programs is manufacture demand, which won't work if you try to do that at scale with no personalization or relevance to your market. Apparently CMOs at those stages don't actually care about revenue, they just care about growth metrics. If you're going to build an ABM program,
It should be based on your best fit customers. can guarantee that a company that doesn't know you exist is significantly less likely to buy from you. But nobody wants to run awareness programming because they're like, it's a waste of money. Our sales team's comp plan is actually incentivizing them to not close our target accounts because they get more money by selling volume versus by selling a high deal value. We should spend some time breaking their beliefs and reshaping how our target audiences actually think about whatever their problems are.
Speaker 2 (01:01.358)
Hello guys, welcome to another episode of the B2B show. I had the pleasure of interviewing Mason Cosby and Mason is probably one of the biggest experts that I had a chance to meet when it comes to the ABM campaigns for small, medium and a bit bigger businesses. Mason, the founder of Scrapey ABM, shared with us a lot of great and unique takeaways on
how to create a strategy around your ABN campaigns, what campaigns are better, one to many, one on one. How deep should you go with personalization in your campaigns? How to execute? What are the best tools? What are the best systems? And many, many other, other things. So enjoy. The first question that I have for you is, perhaps you would agree with me, right? So right now we are everywhere, wherever you go online, go to Google, go to LinkedIn, wherever you go.
You will find a lot of noise, right? You will find a lot of crap. You will find a lot of AI generated bullshit. You know, everyone is being the same. So from your personal experience, how can companies B2B companies stand out from that noise and how are they winning in, in the next five years?
So my perspective on this comes from a guy that runs a privately held business that I actually don't need money. like, I want to pursue, like I need enough money to like pay our bills, but like I'm good. Like I'm actually really happy with my life. So this comes from that perspective, which is I only grow as the market demands. So I actually think that a lot of the reasons that there's so much noise and crap in the market is because we're not growing by market demands. We're growing by venture capitalist or PE backed demands saying,
We have to have this growth in order to generate a return for our investors. And as a result, it's actually not market focused. It's more investor focused. for starters, recognizing it's way easier to not be so stressed out about the demands of growth when you actually grow based on market demands. And that's why we focus so much on generating lots and lots of helpful content. Because if we are helpful to the market, the market will demand our services.
Speaker 1 (03:20.332)
That's pretty much it. What we're trying to do through these AI generated or mass outbound programs is manufacture demand, which won't work if you try to do that at scale with no personalization or relevance to your market. So if you have to do something because again, I don't think I'm going to convince anyone to become un-PE backed. That's a very difficult web to untangle. But what you can do
is get really specific to your cohorts of accounts and actually create personalization based on cohorting, not to the individual. What I have found is when you do individual personalization, it actually doesn't help that much because I don't care if you know where I went to college. I've actually seen it be detrimental because I keep getting outbound messages from clearly AI saying, we've helped marketing agency owners like you in Whitetown, Indiana. I live in a city that is four blocks.
There are no other marketing agency owners in the work in white's town. And even if there were, that wouldn't be relevant. That's not, I don't serve my local area. I serve a global scale where a remote first agency. So in short, if you cohort by accounts of growth stage industry, specific personas, and you're personalized and super nuanced to the individuals in that context, you will have a higher likelihood of actually being relevant and helpful. Last thing that I'll throw out on this, and this was just a mind bender for me, like
two weeks ago and I feel like an idiot. But I don't primarily serve Cedar or Series A. I was talking with an agent center that served Cedar Series A and he said, yeah, the big unlock for me was when I stopped trying to sell them agency services based on revenue generation. What do you mean? And he elaborated that Cedar and Series A actually don't care about revenue. What they care about are making their growth metrics look really, really good so they can go get further investment for their Series A or their Series B.
So they then have the revenue runway or the growth runway or the investment runway to generate significant sustainable revenue. But seed and series A apparently CMOs at those stages don't actually care about revenue. They just care about growth metrics. So making sure that you're actually personalized nuance by that cohort of accounts to what they care about in the weird nuances of how they care about.
Speaker 2 (05:33.902)
How do you approach cohort personalization in your Arabian campaigns?
So it's typically problem based and I know that sounds very basic in nature, but getting really granular and specific to the exact problem that they're experiencing and obviously using their language. I guess here's the and I kind of hate this answer because it is the right answer, but it's the same answer everyone says, but then they try to do it in ways that are not actually the right way. meaning they're like, yeah, we co-ordered our accounts by like fintech.
And it's like, Fintech is a huge cohort or like HR tech. It's like, you how much stuff is in HR tech? Like there's payroll, there's benefits, there's ATS systems, there's performance improvement. like there's tons and tons of cohorts just within HR tech. So when I talk about it that way, it's not just, oh yeah, we serve B2B SaaS as our cohort. No, that's not a cohort. That's like a.
business model. What you need to do is get to the example that I heard from someone yesterday is like we actually got down to expense management software as a cohort of accounts that we served extraordinarily well. It's like that's incredible. So it's not just HR or fintech or B2B SaaS. That's stupid. You need to get more granular to we help expense softwares increase win rates or
decreased churn within their customer. However you can get that granular and specific and speak their language is how you then effectively cohort your accounts and such way that is actually personalized in a way that is somewhat scalable.
Speaker 2 (07:13.848)
But when you're talking about these problems, right? How do you what's your personally go to approach to actually identifying these problems, know, but but proof back so it's not just, know, assuming what are the problems, but actually knowing what are the problems.
I guess one way to do that is by actually talking with your ICP on a podcast or you know, something like that. But if someone is, you know, to start creating the ABM campaign right now, before he actually goes out to, you know, talk to these people, what are your ways of identifying these problems on a little bit, you know, bigger scale?
fast. Yeah, I understand what you're trying to say. You shouldn't do that. Like it's a, if you're going to build an ABM program, it should be based on your best fit customers. Meaning like you look at your current customer base, you're like, who do we serve super, super well? It stays for a long time. That's really happy. And like, it's highly profitable. Like that's how I think about ABM programs, which means you got them at some point already. what I find is for most organizations, they need to start
again, super problem based of just like, what's the premise of the problem that we saw? So I'll give you a quick context. Scrappy EBM started with messaging that was around, you don't need a 200k text stack to get started.
That was fine and dandy. Here's the real problem with that. A third of our customers still use like a 200k tech stack and we didn't recommend that they buy it, but they have it. That's actually not the problem because some of these people like actually have the budget and the problem is they just don't have a program or a process that's repeatable in nature. So like we had a premise of a problem. We've gotten way more refined in our messaging to talk about ABM enablement, meaning you need support.
Speaker 1 (09:12.59)
building out repeatable systems and processes that are your ABM program that you can inevitably own in-house. So that's how we got more specific. And then as a result, when we go out to market to specific accounts that we now know, we typically serve the 20 to $100 billion range mid-market space with three to eight marketers and a dedicated sales team that's already doing some form of outbound. Like that level of specificity came because we worked at our customers and said, are the top 20 % of our most effective customers.
that get the best value from us. Why don't you go get more of those? So I'm not guessing at the problem that I solve. I know it, like, because I just said, these are our best customers. I want to go get more of these. And that's an ABM program. It's just getting more of your best customers.
Now, when you say it like that, we also had a very similar situation before our messaging and positioning used to be like, we help you get leads from content. But after quite some time, we realized that messaging actually resonates the most with the companies who are doing half a million, one million, up to $2 million in annual current revenue, which is not something that we are going after.
No, we want more companies doing five, 10, $15 million in annual crew revenue. And that's why we later, you know, repositioned to being something, something completely still like a content marketing agency of sort, you know, delivering, still delivering leads, but also delivering some other, you know, wrapping it up differently. So tell me once someone knows who are.
you know, the problems that their ICP has, you know, what are the next steps for creating a, you know, a winning predictable, ABM strategy in place and execution, course.
Speaker 1 (11:09.71)
Yeah, I mean, there's two core frameworks to look at. So framework one would be the account progression model that we use. And just as a quick outline, that's awareness, initial engagement, meaningful engagement, MQA, SQA, opportunity. So those are kind of the six I missed, Re-engagement, SQA, opportunity. There we go. So there are seven stages. And the reason I want it like that is I can guarantee that a company that doesn't know you exist
is significantly less likely to buy from you than a company that you exist. But nobody wants to run awareness programming because they're like, it's a waste of money. It's like, well, do you want people to know about you? Sure. Great. Awareness programs. Initial engagement is primarily focused on problem education. So like, do they even know that they have a problem? So again, for many of our clients, they don't recognize, yeah, I bought 200k in technology, but it didn't actually take anything off of anyone's plate. And as a result,
There's actually no one to run this tool. Okay, great. Or another one would be, our sales team's comp plan is actually incentivizing them to not close our target accounts because they get more money by selling volume versus by selling a high deal value. Like, that's tough. So those are problems that they don't even know that they have that we then help educate them on at the initial engagement stage, meaningful engagement. How do they actually explore viable solutions?
MQA is I qualify as product page, pricing page, schedule, call page. Like they were right there and they didn't book, which is where you then get into re-engagement, which is primarily focused on further product education and case study type content that validates that you are the right solution. SQA is based on timing and budget, not fit because fit should have been determined before awareness and even opportunity that enters into your pipeline. like once you've nailed down what those definitions are in your organizations and how you measure those things,
You then need to run specific programs at every stage of each of those of the account progression model. So we then map out our programs through four D's, which would be data distribution, destination and direction. So data is just who we're going after. So what's the target account? Why are we reaching out? So what's the trigger or the signal that starts that playbook? And then lastly, how are we speaking to these people? What's the message? So taking problem language and getting that more specific
Speaker 1 (13:32.534)
to at this stage for this persona. So that's data. Next is then distribution, which is just how are getting in front of these people based on who you're going after. That'll be very different. But once you nail down data, it should kind of inform distribution. Next is in destination, which is just where we actually sending them. So it's the content they need right now to take the next step in their journey towards becoming our customer. The last is direction, which is just how do we plan to track it? So if you know who you're going after, why you're reaching out, what you're saying to them, how you're getting in front of them, what you're sending them to it, how you're tracking it.
You have a highly repeatable program that you can run over and over and over again. So you do the account progression model and then map out the 40s every stage of your account progression model. You've got a repeatable program that you can execute across multiple verticals.
Tell me from your experience, is it better to go one-to-one, to have a one-to-one approach, one-to-many, one-to-few? When I'm saying one-to-one, I mean to have personal level communication with each and every lead and to have a very personalized, very...
very, very personalized, you know, reports, example, being sent to them kind of a content written just for them, or you it's more like one to, you know, 50 accounts, 100 accounts in the, in the ICP bucket.
Yeah, I mean, it's just a, it's gonna sound.
Speaker 2 (14:53.42)
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I'm going to say it sounds simple, but it's actually somewhat complex. This is just looking at your LTV to CAC analysis. So like how much money do I get based on how much it costs me to acquire them? So there was a client that we spoke with. It was like, yeah, I ran an ABM on my last organization. We had a million dollar budget and a dedicated team of four to go get Rivian. I was like, that's insane. But for that company, if they had closed Rivian,
I think the numbers were like 20 million a year at a 50 % gross profit margin. So they spend 2 million bucks in year one or 3 million bucks in year one. But Rivio is going to stay for like five to 10 years paying $20 million a year. Okay. Like, yeah, that's, that's a one-to-one program all day long. Like that's, but most of us don't live in that world. Most of us live in, again, when I live in mid market, they're selling typically six figure or like
Speaker 1 (16:56.358)
mid five high five figure deals or six figure deals. So I actually view the account progression model then as the continuum of one to many one to few one to one. So as an example, at the awareness stage, you should likely not be one to one because these people don't know that you exist. So here the goal is just, can I get them to know that I exist? At the initial engagement stage, it's probably still fairly one to many. Now as you get towards meaningful engagement, it depends on your
on your LTV to CAC ratio. If you are getting lots and lots of dollars for the cost to acquire them, maybe go one to few, one to one. And, but I think typically at the MQA stage, once they've converted and you actually know that they understand your product and your solution uniquely, this is where I always recommend it. At least sales is getting involved or in some capacity. Like we're doing some form of outreach at this stage. And that's kind of where I like.
Some accounts or some companies we work with get sales involved at the initial engagement or the awareness stage. But certainly once they've actually viewed product page, pricing page schedule, a call page, they've like looked at a lot of product content. We should get sales involved. So at that point, sales is then highly one-to-one. It's like one of the most one-to-one channels of all time. So then you're in a one-to-one state. But my answer on that is first, how much does it cost to acquire a customer? And is that cost worth it?
in retrospect to how much profit you generate off of that customer. And that will tell you how one to one or one to fewer, one to many you should be. And if you're not sure, the more engaged they become, the more personalized you should be because you actually know there's a higher likelihood of them converting based on their current levels of engagement.
So from what I could say is that content plays a very important role in all of your ABM campaigns. Like what kind of content are you creating for different stages?
Speaker 1 (18:54.626)
Yes, I mean, if you think about awareness, it's primarily thought leadership. So, well, let me just take a step back on that front and just make it really simple. I typically recommend we spend 70, like 60 to 70 % of our time talking about problems and like framing up how we should think. I want to be super clear. I'm a founder led brand. I spend a lot of time on thought leadership. It's the main thing that I actually do as my job. So that's my perspective on it.
but if people don't think about solutions the same way that you would like them to think about it, they're never going to really buy from you. the other thing that I, that I heard is from somebody that was like, well, I don't really want to focus on thought leadership because like, I don't want to have to do like all this belief breaking and all this kind of stuff. I'm like, that's, so I heard this, some of that, that respond and is that it was, if you didn't do belief breaking, would they need you? Like if they already knew exactly what to do and how to do it, would they need you?
Probably not. So we should spend some time breaking their beliefs and reshaping how our target audiences actually think about whatever their problems are. Because obviously the other thing, thing on that front, you've seen their problem tens, hundreds, thousands of times. They've seen their problem once, which is why it's still a problem. So you genuinely know how to think about it better than they do, which is why thought leadership content at the awareness and engagement stage is pretty important. So I spend 60 to 70 % of our time there. The next thing.
is then really, really deep dive content around viable solutions. So think 20 % of your time here. So for example, you should go check out user Jim's website under the resources tab. There's a scrappy idiom master class that is viable solutions. It's a 10 session course. That's three hours that is completely free. And I have to just put in any email address. I don't even get it. Like I don't actually get anything from that other than you spend three hours hanging out with me.
And from my perspective, if you spent three hours and it actually helped you do your job better, whether you buy from me or not, great. You're going to probably tell somebody about it. And for me, that's great. That's all I'm looking for at the meaningful engagement stage is they've explored viable solutions and they understand from the viability. So that's that and MQA is probably about 25 % of our time, which then leaves roughly like five to 15 % at which point it is hard conversion based programs. like.
Speaker 1 (21:21.614)
case studies, testimonial videos, like things that just are, we are the right solution. Because as you've shaped how they think already, and they've already engaged the deal the whole way through, then they're probably already going to buy from you. And I this is different from some other people's perspective on, like, I don't actually do a lot on just specific demand capture, like keyword betting. Cause at that point you're just a commodity.
And I don't really like to play in a commodity space. I prefer to have shaped the perspective and opinion from the beginning. And as a result, I of become the only option or vendor that they're even exploring. So it's like either they're to work with us or they're going to network with anybody. So that's my perspective on it. If you would like to do demand capture keyword commodity based stuff, that works. You're just going have a lower close rate. it's just it's an efficiency cack engine at that point and less focused on the LTV side.
Yeah, yeah. Tell me, how do the entire operations behind the systems like this look like? What are the systems in the background? What's the software that you're using? Is it something more sophisticated, explicitly built for this stuff? Or you have a bunch of your own, let's say,
home-based solutions that you build with like Airtable, Automation, Zapier, whatever it is. Like how the entire operations look like in the background.
Yeah, it's a great question. So all of our stuff is framework based by design. The only things that you typically would need as a basic requirement would be a marketing automation platform and then a CRM, which to be clear, most companies have if you're doing modern marketing. So we try to make it really easy to access, but I will be just fully transparent of like, it's hard. Like it's not, you can do it with that stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:21.23)
And we, most of our clients are, you just have to know how to set up workflows in such a way that can be triggered. You have to reset up some of the things around, uh, like contact and company property association to be more account focused in nature, which does require some setup. Uh, and then the last thing is just learning how to build out dashboards. Like there's a lot of work that goes into dashboarding to tell the story and the journey. Cause you shift from like, well, this com or this person at this company.
did the thing. I'm actually less concerned about the individual. The standard B2B buying committee is in involves like eight to 14 people. So I get one person that's great. Like that's kind of table stakes. I need like six to at least know that we exist before we really have a shot at winning the deal. So from my perspective, you can do it with basic marketing automation. You can do it with a CRM. That's what we use for probably half of our clients is just that. But
inevitably, I'll be super clear, there's going to be lots of problems with that. Like it's hard to scale. And that's why a lot of these platforms exist. But the reason we take this approach is in building out with just what you have today, which is what I recommend everyone do is one, it's like way easier to get started. It's harder to scale, but it's easier to get started. And two, you have a higher likelihood of success because you actually build momentum. And then three,
When you solve a current business problem, typically that creates more problems downstream. So what you're doing, you're actually solving today's problem, knowing it will create tomorrow's problem. And then the right solution might be, buy a tool. But you solve the actual problem versus what I've seen lots of people do is they buy all of the tools and they only end up using like 20 % of the functionality. So they're like way overspent.
And then it just ends up being a mess. as a very prime example, the other thing I like about our 40 framework is it's a diagnostic tool. So if you're at the awareness stage and you're like, I don't have great awareness level programming. Okay, well, what is it? Are we not targeting the right people? Do we not have enough data? That might be the problem. Oh, are we not getting in front of them in the right places? Maybe we need tooling that allows us to do better targeting and distribution channels. Okay. Do we not have the right content? Maybe we need...
Speaker 1 (25:44.206)
support from agency or maybe we need a different content tool that actually allows us to scale content in a more personalized way or do we just not know how to track at the awareness stage? So like what is it on those problems and you actually solve the actual problem versus saying my problem is that I have an effective AVM program. Well, no, that's not a problem. Like it is a problem, but it's not it's not a solvable problem. Like you have to get really specific and what what's the actual reason the AVM program isn't working right now. And as you actually map out the account progression model and the 4D framework.
you can say at this stage we have this problem let's solve that
When you're working on the ABN campaigns, do you a fixed set of accounts that you're working with? How many leads per each account you're working with? Do you have like five, six, seven leads from one account or just one?
I'm standard consulting answer here of it depends, but to elaborate along that, um, the number of accounts is largely dependent on again, like how much money do we actually have to spend here? Because if we have $0, it's gonna be very different than a million dollar budget. So what I typically look at from a personalization perspective is I don't think any single rep should have to manage more than 300 accounts every half year. Uh, I think that that's.
planning. If you look at it through the lens of. If we're going to do outbound. Then that's a hundred accounts a day. Every three days. That's that's too many. So what I want to do is I want to make sure we've mapped our accounts to the number of reps. We actually have to manage those accounts and that we're then running marketing programming and then we're potentially doing in the same way we would do pulse advertising. We could do pulse outbound to where we're targeting different people.
Speaker 1 (27:31.886)
in the context of those companies. And then from the number of people that we're targeting, again, largely depends on the buying committee. So like, for example, we do need to get the CFO bought in at some point on buying an ABM program, but they're not person one that I'm marketing to. Like they're actually one last, they're like in pipeline advertising. So when I think about it in that way, let's say we're going after an organization that has a marketing team, the sales team in total of like,
30 or 40 people. I am likely targeting sales leaderships like SDR director, sales director, VP of sales with different messaging, but I'm also still targeting marketing manager, marketing director, VP and CMO. So in a target both sides of the people involved in the APM program, and that may end up being 10 people at the awareness and initial engagement stage.
But that's, that's how I think through it. It's like who's involved in the buying committee, end users who are the actual influencers in those organizations and then who's the decision maker. Final thought that I'll make on this is I run a 15 person organization and I am the CEO. have our only company card. So like if anyone wants to make any purchases, every purchases is run through me at this moment. If you cold email me, this is nothing that like, I just don't even open them because I like.
I logged off my email for like two days and I got back. had over 400 emails after just like two days. So like, it's not even a thing of like, you may have the right solution for a problem that I don't even know I have. I just don't have the time to look at it. Whereas when I told my team, got 400 emails in two days, like, Oh, I get like 30. Like their inboxes are way more clean and way more open than mine. So I am way more likely to listen to my team than I am to listen to anyone.
that just like pitches me something in a cold email. So that's why we like the bottoms up approach because if you get a slack from a team member that you like care about and want them to be successful, you're way more likely to respond to it than a stranger that you don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:41.56)
How do you usually start engaging with TupiKey accounts? Is it like to call the email or sending a LinkedIn connection request or pay that?
Great question. Two answers here. So we think about channels as indirect and direct channels. So direct channels would be email, LinkedIn, DMs, calls. People don't love to be engaged in direct channels when they don't know who you are, unless there's a really, really, really good offer. So as an example, I'll use this. I didn't know you like four or five weeks ago, but then you slid into my LinkedIn DMs and said, Hey, do you want to
join a podcast episode. Good offer. I'm having to join a podcast episode, make some content. It's like I responded, but it was like, Hey, do you like buy our tool? Not a good offer. So if you're going to use direct channels at earlier awareness level stages, it has to be a really, really great offer for them to engage, which is why we typically prefer to engage in indirect channels. So things like paid media programming, things like organic social, things like events are typically really good for this.
And then you do follow ups and more direct channels after you built relationship and indirect channels. So that's the like categories we think through. And the last thing here is just where's your audience show up. So like we have a client that was bullish on cold email and he came from a different industry and he was selling, he sells an ed tech product. And like one of our account managers is a former teacher. My father-in-law is a head of school. Like.
We have actually a surprising number of people at our company that have either been in education or like have a spouse that's in education or like have a family member that's in education. And we've served the space for probably two years at this point with like dedicated clients in the education or ed tech space. We know the space pretty well. And we're like cold emails, not going to work. He's like, I'm confident it will. It didn't work. So I could say cold emails are a great way to go, but like if your audience doesn't show up there,
Speaker 1 (31:47.406)
probably not as good of a channel. figure out where your audience actually lives and then use those channels appropriately in such a way that prioritizes earlier in the relationship, indirect, and then becomes more more direct.
Yeah, yeah, makes sense, makes sense. Okay. So, so we pretty much covered a lot of things regarding the, you know, ABM programs. What, how did your best performing ABM program ever look like from start to finish from creativity, content side aspect, know, loud tree, charity.
There have been a few, but I'll give you the one that truly was the most simple that took about three weeks to set up and revolutionized a business. I mean that very sincerely. So there was a company that we worked with that ran there than America's number one escape room company, which you're like, on earth are they running a Navy program? I thought the same thing. They had a B2B arm of their business that was not doing super well. Like they made almost no money there, but it
Like they had had count, they believed in the idea of a B2B arm of the business. They just had that crack the code on how to actually get people to book meetings because most people don't think B2B totally I'm going to do escape room. Um, but they had good offers and they just needed awareness. So what we did is I just had the thought of like, well, why don't we build some kind of a referral program? And then as we dug into the data, uh, what we found is that there were actually roughly
200 to 300 people every week booking an escape room experience using a company email address. I was like, well, why don't we just like say, hey, thanks for playing the game in the past week. Couldn't help but notice that you booked using your company email. It was just like a fun team outing. We actually have team experiences that use things from Patrick Linciani or Storybrand that actually make
Speaker 1 (33:48.846)
that we have people analyze the ways in which your teams interacted during the game to then help you understand how to do conflict resolution and understand motivations for your team. Did not know if you knew we had that. Well, that was it. Like that was, we found the data in their existing CRM. We already had the offers. All we did was we followed up in a seven day timeframe from when they last played. So it was time bound every week with a single sequence that took the sellers.
about 15 minutes to enroll the contacts into like they did a list scan just to make sure they were all mapped by territory. And because to your like to your earlier point, it was not personalized to the individual. Like we never met them or they lived with the college. Like it was a cohort. Well, that single sequence books them an additional nine to 15 meetings every week. It's the only thing that their B2B team does now as they just like enroll people in that sequence. And then they take meetings and it is
printed cash for them. It's incredible. So I reference that because often it's not this crazy, massive ABM program. Like there's likely something that's in the chain of events that is your overall revenue generation process that's got a broken link. So you just like fix that link using a 4D framework and you likely unlock
a lot more opportunities and then something else will break and you fix that link. So that's the thought process is just what's the process overall that gets someone that doesn't know we exist to become a customer and where does it break down and how do you fix that part and then just do that a lot.
What is the best marketing sales, ABM growth, book or a resource that you read?
Speaker 1 (35:37.25)
The one that like shifted my perspective on marketing overall, it's a very basic one, which is building a story brand. It's a note that's a fairly standard answer, unfortunately. But like if you haven't read the book, it's a very good book that like is just problem and solution oriented language in a repeatable framework that helps guide your customers. So that was super helpful. And then the other one that I have referenced a lot.
And this is more thought leadership in nature, like story brand in my mind or marketing made simple, like the other books, very tactical. there are some things in there that I don't fully agree with on the marketing made simple front, but like really, really great primers that are super tactical, move, which is the four question go to market framework that was written by saying or Verge and Brian Brown, that came out like three or four years ago. That book, helped me understand how to diagnose large scale.
systematic business level problems. So those are the two. then I've gotten really hooked on Alex Hermosy stuff. So I actually have a million dollar offers here. So I'm about to start reading that. Well, I haven't read it yet. So that's wild. So I'm about to read that. And then the other book that I'm about to start reading is How to Win Friends and Influence People. So I've got a couple of books that I'm about to start reading that I've heard are just classics that I'm ashamed that I haven't read yet. So
Those are the four that I would look at today.
Yeah. Nice one. Nice one. Nice list. Tell me one thing that I always ask everyone at the end is, okay, business, you know, that's all good. That's all great. Right. but that's not the core of our lives. Right. how do you, according to you, how, or from your personal experience, how do you win at the game called life?
Speaker 2 (37:35.99)
And what is that winning for you?
very openly a Christian online. like, this shouldn't be a shock to anybody. But like one, I think to win at life, quote unquote, is to first accept Christ as a savior. So that you, I mean, it's just recognition that like, we are very flawed people that have committed lots and lots of sin. And as a result of that sin are no longer going to be in relationship with God. So that's the first thing. And then from there, it's to live deeply sacrificially.
I am going to die. Like can guarantee it. it's another stuff on this side of eternity super matters. other than my ability to lead other people to join me on the other side of eternity. So like, for me, that would be winning a life. So I do, I've been pretty open about this. I like, we even started this way. It's like, I don't actually need that much money at this point.
I need $40,000 a year. Like that's about it. Um, but I do all of this because I enjoy one, I enjoy what I do, but then two, if I make a of money, I can give a lot of money and spread the gospel far further. So that for me is winning at life.
one nice one Mason we had a blast thank you very much for being the guest today
Speaker 1 (38:59.586)
Thank you so much for having me.
Okay guys, that's a wrap. What an amazing episode that was. Before you go, just let me ask you a very quick question. Do you know that your B2B company might be in a great danger of AI commoditization? And if your company out there is not sending out, if you're not fighting for the attention, which is the most important currency right now, then
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