055 | Georgie Bell | Taste Profile & Storytelling | The Heart Cut

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 55, I enjoyed chatting with The Heart Cut's co-founder Georgie Bell. She has extensive industry experience, having previously worked at Diageo, Bacardi, and the Scotch Malt Whisky Society.

We discussed how to explain a product, starting from a liquid, going into taste profile, storytelling, and target occasions. We closed with a dive into the life of a start-up with learnings and course correction to build bottom-up. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

0:00 Intro

2:03 Brand or Liquid?

6:43 Social Currency

12:43 Story Telling

23:22 Taste Profile

25:39 Target Consumer Vs Target Occasion

36:35 Women In Whisk(e)y

36:24 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Georgie Bell

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Georgie Bell

Co-founder | The Heart Cut

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

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For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

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Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Maffeo.
In episode 55, I had the

pleasure of chatting with
Georgie Bell Co founder of The

Hard Cut.
She has huge industry

experience, having previously
worked at the Agio Bacardi and

at the Scotch Mold Whiskey
Society.

We discuss how to explain a
product simply starting from a

liquid.
Going into taste, profile,

storytelling and target
occasions, we dive into the life

of startup with learnings and
course corrections to build.

Bottom up, I hope you will enjoy
our chat.

One last thing, if you enjoyed
this podcast, you will also like

the Mafair Drinks guides.
You can subscribe free or paid

on mafairdrinks.com.
Hi, Georgie.

How you doing?
I'm very well.

How are you?
I'm fine, thank you, and welcome

to the Mafair Drinks podcast.
It's real honor to have you.

We've been exchanging some
thoughts on LinkedIn through the

the last month, so it's a it's a
real honor to finally see you

and and get to speak to you.
Oh.

Thank you.
My husband and I are long time

listeners.
First time callers.

That's that's so great.
That's so I see, I see.

Remember your your post on
LinkedIn when you wrote that you

were listening while taking care
of your twins.

And it really made my day and I
and I felt like it must be so

fascinating.
I should do like a poll on

asking people like what do they
do, why they listen while they

listen to the podcast.
They get all sort of things from

running to driving to commuting
to feeding.

To to feeding, to walking your
twins endlessly around the same

park to ensure that they carry
on sleeping exactly.

Maybe the next step is letting
them listen to to my voice.

Maybe we'll help them to to fall
asleep.

Maybe.
I mean, we are setting up a

family business here, so one
that hopefully they'll inherit.

So start them young, right?
No, that's that's great.

So let's start with one of my
usual questions that I always

get.
We are marketeer salespeople,

You know, like I like to call it
like a community.

I don't like to separate
marketers and sales people.

You know we all part of the same
family within the ecosystem.

So, but what what's your take
on, on building a brand, like

does it start with the brand or
with the liquids?

Ultimately, I believe we're all
here because the spirits are

being made or liquids are being
produced.

That's why we're in these jobs,
you know.

So for me, it always starts with
with the spirit.

You can have a really compelling
brand story.

You can have an incredible
brand.

While it can be vibrant, it can
be something completely

different.
You can have an exceptional

team, but if your spirit or your
liquids that you're selling and

pushing tastes like garbage,
then you know people will see

through that instantly.
So for me, from my background,

working in advocacy and now as a
business owner, everything for

us starts with the liquid
itself.

Everything starts with the
spirit and then the brand walks

and the messaging and the story
is built up after that and the

brand is built up after that.
Yeah, I agree with you.

Like I'm a big believer of the
liquid because ultimately for

me, I mean nothing to add to
what you were saying.

It's mainly the fact that you
elevate that story and then you

build the brand on the
foundations that the liquid

allows you to to work on unlike
learn the recently, last month I

was in Dubai at Gulf Food and I
joined a panel discussion and it

was on functional drinks and we
were talking about functional

elements of you know, functional
food and beverage and and

something that came to my mind
was an old Apple advert.

You know like I don't know if
you remember when the iPod was

called and I said we should stop
talking about gigabytes and we

should start talking about
songs.

Because back then the app when
the when the iPod was launched,

it was 1000 songs in your
pockets.

So they they they blocked that
narrative of like 5 gigabytes,

10 gigabytes, 20 gigabytes, you
know and but I don't know how

big a song is.
You know how many megabytes that

song is.
So I cannot do the math.

So for me it's how do we elevate
the conversation from a very

technical spirits conversation
and we get it on what's in it

for the consumer.
Not because you know you can

talk about taste profiles and
everything, but what is the

average Joe tasting?
That's a very important aspect.

And then you build the brand
after that.

But then to the Apple example, I
mean, if Apple wasn't what what

Apple is, you know, like people
would see through it and then

they would just rush into
technical service and have it

repaired all the time, because
then, you know, there wouldn't

be foundations in it, right?
Yeah, I I I couldn't agree with

that more.
Actually, as you were speaking

there was thinking back to some
of the whiskeys that I looked

after at Bacardi.
Aberfaldi was one of them.

And we used to say you see with
whiskey and we'll talk about

this I'm sure quite a bit
because it's quite a particular

spirit with a particular
audience or drinker.

And we used to say with
Aberfaldi that it had a longer

fermentation time, the honeyed
richness.

Say what you want about that,
But actually I think that was a

good way of putting it because
longer fermentation time or what

does that really mean, you know,
to the average Joe fermentation.

Why should I care about that
honeyed richness?

Oh, I know about that.
That means when I drink this

whiskey, I'm going to taste this
beautiful, honeyed, rich

character.
But you could say that that

story in itself was built up
from the liquid character.

First, we knew that it had this
honeyed richness.

Why does it have that honeyed
richness?

Because of that longer
fermentation time.

So it's that functional benefit
that was tied in together.

So you would we would never just
say it had a longer fermentation

time.
It was always something for

something.
It really helps a consumer not

only educate them, so they
they're learning something.

They're going, oh, now I
understand what a longer

fermentation does, and I can
tell that to my friends, but

they also understand what that
means to them.

Why should they care about that?
And it's because of the taste

profile.
To build on what you're saying,

I mean, now listening to you is
also how do you make it easy to

remember so that, let's say,
average consumer, but even,

like, educated consumers can
actually repeat it to their

friends.
And if you allow me even look

cool, you know, with them,
you're during a dinner or like a

business dinner or a private
dinner or whatever.

You know, like just like when
you take out that bottle of

whiskey and somebody says, oh,
actually, like, it reminds me of

honey.
And there's like, did you know

why?
Because of Dun, Dun, Dun, Dun,

Dun, You know, but in a very
simple way without being

allowed.
You're a nerd kind of thing now.

And it reminds me actually on my
previous life when I was working

on the on the Pierce and Rourke
brand and you know on beer

there's all this, you know,
sweetness and happiness balance

the hope brings bitterness and
you know the the rest of the

body, you know, like the sugars
and everything.

You know, of course we just
witnessed and when I attended

the training from one of the
advocacy trainers back back then

and despite I was working on the
brand, I mean I was sitting

literally at the brewery that
was my office.

So, you know, I was living and
breathing the the word and and

the smells and everything, but I
remembered a visit I did in

prosciutto future.
You know, like where they make

prosciutto in Parma and when the
guy was explaining to me like

the saltiness and the sweetness
because we call, you know,

prosciutto Dolce, you know, like
we call it like a sweet

prosciutto, which doesn't make
sense because there's no sugar

in it.
It's just said what it means is

actually that it's less salty
then another that is much

saltier, you know?
And what he explained to me was

that the salt doesn't permeate
the fat of the Parma ham.

So actually when you take a
slice of Parma ham now I'm

getting geeky on this, Like you
know if you remove the fat it's

actually much saltier because
you are removing that balance of

sweetness.
It's just like sweet because

it's non saltiness.
It's not sweetness technically

but what I what I used that on
my trainings back then on beer

was that when you drink the beer
and there you have the the foam

head and the and the body of the
beer.

If you if you remove the the the
you know, I mean if the head of

the foam goes down it make it
becomes much more bitter because

the foam, the bitterness doesn't
permeate the foam.

So the foam is exactly like the
fat of the ham and you feel it

much bitter because you know you
don't get that balance of

foaminess and you know on foam
that brings you that perceives

witness so to say.
You know, the point is that it's

very easy to to replicate
because maybe they, you know,

you are discussing this over
dinner and maybe you, you serve

them some Palmer ham and they
can immediately relate on that,

you know, taste, perspective and
perception.

And then all of a sudden it's
like, wow, now I got it, you

know, And nobody told me that.
I mean, it just came to my mind

when I did 1 + 1 and I said, oh,
I remember last year when I went

to that, you know, that guy
explained it to me that way.

And now I hear it.
I hear foam and sweetness and,

you know, the difficulty of
bitterness to permeate the foam.

And 1 + 1 I can connect the
dots, you know?

And the more we can do that in
trainings, the easier it is for

people to actually say, oh, I
like that kind of taste profile

rather than anything else.
You touch upon two things that

are really important to me.
One is sort of story the social

currency, you know, you learned
that so you're able to bring

that out at dinner party.
You're able to say, hey friends,

did you know this right piece of
social currency for you that

you're able to give out.
And I think that when we're

talking about stories about our
brands and you know, taste

profiles or brands and why does
it taste a certain way.

So one of our whiskeys that we
have with the Habitat is from

M&H Distillery and it's matured
in a pomegranate wine cast.

Phenomenal.
A phenomenal whiskey is

delicious and it has this
beautiful sort of metal date

cherry pie character to it.
And so when you taste it, and we

have on the label that it's a
macramegranate wine cast.

So you when you taste it for
someone who's bought it, they

can bring it out with friends.
They can say this tastes like

this, tastes like cherry pie,
tastes like sticky Mitchell date

because it's been matured in a
pomegranate wine cast.

Isn't that cool?
And they can go on further.

That's a piece of social
currency immediately gives you a

cool point, which is great and
it's what we're all looking for.

We all like to tell stories to
our friend.

And secondly, you want that
story to be they used to call

them bar bites.
You want it to be a bar bite of

information.
It's very easy to pick up and

carry on.
You're sitting at a bar, you see

a you're sitting with a friend,
you see a bottle behind the bar

and you go, hey friend, did you
know X about this?

And actually on top of that, one
thing I'm a huge fan of, which I

think is really important is A
through the bottle.

Because ultimately your design
is also telling your story for

when you're not there.
And I think it's really

important that we all create
these through the bottle

pitches.
So that each part of your bottle

or different parts of your label
is helping give key identifiers

to that story.
So that when you're not, there

is that clue for the bartender,
for the friend who's introducing

the brand to another friend
through word of mouth, which

were pen like causes so
important but they can go, hey,

I see this heart stencil cut out
on the front.

This is because of that you know
so.

Absolutely, Absolutely.
I love, I love that bar bite.

I will.
I will steal it, if you allow

me.
Yeah, like a little bath nap,

You know, a a bar stack of a
story that you can pick up and

go with.
And and I love that and and what

one one thing that I that I talk
about is actually like this

because sometimes I very much
challenge my own thinking and

and I've been against
storytelling and probably like

there's some old posts of mine
or LinkedIn like that still say

is like something against
storytelling.

But to correct myself like
through the years is that like

I'm against what I call fluffy
storytelling.

I'm for pragmatic storytelling
So the storytelling that gives

you something and I don't want
to tell you the storytelling

that is about me and my family
and you know for the sake of it.

I mean, if there is a place
there because we're talking

about something and then my
family is relevant in that

barbite, then so be it, you
know?

But then if it's something that
I just stick in because it's

like, Oh yeah, because when I
was a little child, I used to go

with my mother and I've always
wanted to be, you know, to

create a whiskey brand.
And it's like, OK, but tell me

or something more.
What am I supposed to taste now?

Like, you know, we, we're
talking tasting notes and we're

not talking you in the park and
you in the forest with your

parents.
What's your take about that that

story because I mean you've been
doing advocacy for a while and

you know, like you've been in,
you know in marketing and what's

your perception on that and and
how do you think like the right

way should be on storytelling?
I'm smiling here because I'm

like, oh, am I going to say
something that you might

disagree with?
But please, I spent eight years

as a global whiskey ambassador,
OK?

And I agree with you.
Functional storytelling is the

most important piece, right?
And as you said, no one really

cares about your family.
And you're going to tell this

beautiful story how it reminds
me of the bread that was cooking

in my grandma's kitchen on this
day that this happened and that

happened.
You know that I can't, I can't

relate to that.
I do believe that there is a

slight sort of area where you
can put in a little bit a

sprinkling of fluffy
storytelling to sort of heighten

potentially the romanticism of
the category that you're putting

out there.
For instance, when I'm talking

about whiskey, usually, and this
isn't with the heart cut as

much, but when I'm talking about
whiskey usually and I'm doing a

tasting for a group of consumers
and I am talking about the

production process, let's say I
might say at the end that the

whiskey will be slumbering in a
cloak of oak, for instance.

Now that's pretty romantic and
it's pretty fluffy, but it does

make a consumer go, oh, that's
quite nice actually, I get that,

I understand that.
So that's what I mean by every

once in a while there can be a
sprinkling, a sprinkling of

romanticism, especially for a
category like whiskey.

But at the end of the day, it
does have to be pragmatic, and

it has to be.
You have to be able to relate to

the storytelling and actually
you bring up tasting notes

there, which I think is a really
important one.

For the hot cut, we put on the
front of our bottles 3 tasting

notes, which we've now expanded
to five.

But they're tasting notes that
you can relate to.

So things like mature dates,
cherry pie, fresh Peaches,

banana bread, candied pecans,
for instance, but tasting notes

that make the whiskey unto
light.

Because too often we use tasting
notes like vanilla, toffee, oak.

The number of times I see the
tasting note of taste of oak or

has a final flavour of oak, what
does that mean?

I don't know what I've never
chewed on oaks like.

I've never chewed on oak.
And I going through all of these

tasting notes online from from
the from I I went through

recently the Drinks
International most admired

whiskey brands and they looked
at some of their tasting notes

and they say that their whiskey
tastes of oak like OK I I know

as as as someone who has a
degree in whiskey what you mean

by that like oak lactones.
I know you mean that it's like a

vanilla toffee coconut character
coming through but my brother

and sister-in-law they're going
to read that and they're going

to be like oak like what what
does that even mean It's matured

in oak so it tastes of oak.
How does what.

So in a long winded answer to
your question.

I do think they're the
functional storytelling is the

most important piece in a bar
bite or bar stack style format.

That is that people can relate
to, especially when it comes to

tasting notes.
And on top of that, when you are

telling a story on the other
page and there is, there is

space for a sprinkling of
Romanticism depending on the

category that you're working in.
No, I I agree.

I mean, I am I I take it.
I take your, I take your

challenge because this is, this
is part of my myself.

You know, like sometimes they
call me like a like a tank

because I just go in and just
like smash through the wall and

you know, like I forget about my
romantic side, so to say.

But I agree with you.
It's just that like my allergy

so to say, to the fluffy
storytelling is that sometimes

it's this only sparkle and not
enough meat underneath.

So it's just like, you know,
there's the, there's the pepper

on the steak, but then the steak
is overcooked and then I think

like, OK, so it's a bit of a
balance and I get it, you know,

like and I agree with you to be
honest, it's is this like how do

you ensure that?
And this is some of the

challenges that I I get also on
this bottom up thinking now and

it's like I was talking to
Julian Marsilia an old colleague

of mine, a previous podcast
guest is evokes about both ISM

like it's a bit of both you know
it's just like top down and

bottom up and and my take was
like I I shouldn't remind

anybody to build top down
because that's the path of least

resistance know.
So that's why I, I don't remind

people to add to your point the
sparkle because if you give it

to a market, to an average
marketing department, they will

just put sparkles in and stars
and flashes, but they will

forget to to put the basics.
And also those barcals were

relayed back to things that
you're like, oh, that's really

great, but why does that really
to At the end of the day that we

often talk about, you want to
have three key stories about

your burn, right?
Or three key things.

What are the three things you
want people to take away from

this?
So you're working in Scotch

whisky, for instance, from one
of your key things is your

beautiful water source.
Well, that's lovely.

You've got a river running right
next to your distillery.

That's wonderful.
And that why your distillery is

probably built where it is,
because water is heavy and you

need more water than anything
else to make whiskey.

You know you need it for for
cooling, for product, for

bottling, for cleaning.
So you you need water and it's

so important to have a
beautiful, pristine water

source.
But but when you talk about and

when a marketing team gets hold
of and I'm not putting my finger

to anyone here.
But when a marketing team gets

hold of that story of the water
and they say, and it's this

beautiful water source and it
causes this love labor of the

whiskey, that's.
Yes, Rubbish.

No.
And that's.

And that's.
The thing is, it's a little bit

like, like when you were talking
about the river, you know that I

was thinking about cities.
No.

And I mean, come on, all cities
were born.

I mean all major cities.
Come on.

Like, we're born either on the
coast or on a river, you know,

like starting from Rome to
whatever other city was ever

built.
And it's always like you.

You cannot say, like, Rome is
beautiful because of its river,

You know, Rome is beautiful.
And by the way, there is a river

running through it that enabled
the development of that city.

You know and this is, this is
the interesting thing that like

what I mean by like sometimes
you get stuck on what you

inherit, you know, from previous
people, from previous stories,

from previous thing.
But then people get lost now.

And to to build on what you were
saying about the functional

storytelling, there is this
element like I was discussing in

a previous episodes and and we
were talking about like the

layers about building the story.
Now, you don't rush into the

kind of, like family tree of
your history.

You know, you start with
something more tangible that,

OK, like I went to school here
and I like this, you know, And

then you talk about your
grandfather's, but you don't

talk about your ancestors right
away, you know, so it builds.

And to your previous point about
the bar bites, you know, give

something.
And then if, if the person wants

more, it's like, oh, wow, What
do you mean?

You know, like, tell me more.
Oh, that's really interesting.

Tell me more and then you build
it as a as a ladder so that it's

easier.
No.

And when I did the WSCT, the
trainer like Nick, Nick, Ryan

and I did it online during
during COVID and he's based in

Ireland and and I was the only
let's say non Anglo-Saxon of the

of the group of students.
Now they were like Americans,

Irish, British people.
I couldn't relate to their

tastes.
You know, they were talking

about candies I've never tasted.
They were talking about some

flavors that I never tasted.
And then it was clear because he

he was trying to actually create
something for me, dedicated to

me because I have AI mean an
Italian Mediterranean, of

course, I I've lived in quite a
few countries so I developed

some different tastes.
But the paleo taste of of my

mouth is very Italian, you know.
So when you talk about certain

Toffees, I have no idea what
what you mean and it goes back

to your oak thing now.
So it's it's always good to

replicate it in a easy to
consume kind of way so that

people can understand what it
means.

Otherwise, if you're launching
the hard cut in, I don't know,

Spain, you know, maybe you're
tasting notes will have to be

adjusted to a Spanish kind of
like taste profile, because

otherwise they have no idea what
those sort of things taste like.

I find that exciting.
Absolutely.

I, I, I, you know the thought
that we will taste different

things and one person's white
chocolate is another person's

rose is great and actually
that's you know what you just

touched on.
There is such a key thing that

we can all do from a global
marketing, global drinks

perspective is there is no
one-size-fits-all.

We know this when that comes to
marketing strategies.

We know that when it comes to
sort of activations you can have

a global clan but it always has
to be locally adapted to the

local culture.
You should take the same thing

in with your tasting notes as
well.

So when you're creating
marketing material for different

countries, make it relative.
Don't try and create one set of

bland tasting notes that you
think will work everywhere

throughout the world, because
one, that aren't inspiring, and

two, they're just not going to
set your brand apart from the

rest, but change them so that
they really do relate to the

local country.
And again, working in whiskey

and working here in the UK, we
often use sweets as references

or baked goods and stuff.
And then you go and you do a

tasting at Whiskey Allen in
Shanghai and they're like,

what's a rhubarb and custard
sweet, you know?

So you do have to make it
relative.

And when I used to do a lot of
travelling and when I used to do

a lot of tastings before I do
any tasting, I would try and

spend, at least today in
markets, going around to bars,

speaking to bartenders, Also
speaking to our local team.

So that when I was presenting
whiskey I could say this tastes

like XYZ, that was familiar with
their palates and not mine.

But also be able to call out
specific bars in those

neighbourhoods and say, hey, oh,
last night I was at Speak Life

instance, so I was at the union
trading company, you know,

rather than trying to speak
about bars on the other side of

the world.
But it does help put your brand

into perspective within that
country that you're doing or

tasting.
Absolutely, absolutely.

No, that's that's a great point.
I mean I I didn't think about it

that way like on on really
seeing and spotting the city

because you need to be relatable
to those people because

otherwise it's just like a
ethereal like fugizi Fugazi as

they said in the Wolf of the
Street now.

And I mean building on this like
you know the the taste profile

and everything, let's have
another fight.

Let's have a fight about target
occasion versus target consumer.

Then like now that we are warmed
up now, you know I'm a big, I'm

a big believer of the target
occasion and the target consumer

doesn't really fit in my world
much anymore in the sense that,

you know like I've I've
mentioned it many times in

previous episodes, you know,
like I I can be different types

of consumers.
Maybe I'm a little bit weird

that I can adapt to many
different kind of taste profiles

and I can drink different kind
of drinks and different kind of

things.
But for me, ultimate it's about

the the target occasion and I
like to build brands based on a

target occasion rather than on a
specific target consumer.

What's your take on that one?
I.

I do agree with you that we
should be looking at a target

occasion layered into that for
us, we have a consumer.

I wouldn't say it's a target
consumer per SE in terms of this

is their age, this is their
gender, this is the way they

should look, this is where they
live.

But we have more of a consumer
mindset piece that sits

alongside that target occasion,
but that only comes off the back

of the type of brand that we
are.

So for the heart cuts, we are a
single cask whiskey company and

our whiskeys are stronger than
most.

We're not cask strength,
sometimes we are, but we reduce

our whiskeys down to strength.
The bottling strength which we

find is delicious as is or you
can add more water.

What I mean by that is our
strength for whiskeys grow from

anything from 49.9% ABV for our
East London Liquor Company

bottling all the way at the
moment up to 57% ABV and that's

for our M&H bottling because of
some of those packs that I've

just thrown out to you there.
So single cask whiskey and

stronger, that means that our
target occasion is quite

tailored to that and for
whiskey.

So I know that our whiskeys
probably aren't cocktail

whiskeys, so we're not pushing
that as a brand.

I also know that they're
probably not whiskeys that

you're going to sit while having
your main meal, right.

So we're not pushing that as a
brand.

And I know that because of those
facts as well, that these aren't

whiskeys that we're going to be
pushing for a very high volume

buzzy you know, party sort of
vibe or a nightclub sort of

vibe.
Because that's not sort of the

sort of place where people would
drink that style of spirit if

they do wonderful and that's not
what we're going after with a

brand for the heart cut for our
occasion.

It's very much in the on trade.
We're going after whiskey bars,

hotel bars where we know that
they'll have brilliant cocktails

but also an incredibly well
curated whiskey selection.

And notice that I say curated
there instead of volume, because

I think it's better to have less
that that are curated rather

than saying we have all of these
whiskeys.

But you know, they're all not
much of A muchness because

everyone is different, but
they've just been thrown out

there because the bar itself is
looking for a volume of whiskeys

rather than creation of whiskeys
and restaurant bars because we

are very much going after that
in restaurant pasta after dinner

occasion.
We want to be on dessert menus.

We would love to be on dessert
menus.

We're so small right now though
we're not there yet, but that is

our dream, to be on the dessert
menu when they have the mixed of

spirits that they recommend to
go with dessert or to have

instead of dessert.
That's where we at The Hard Cut

would like to be with all of
that in mind, so that that's the

target occasion that we're going
after.

No, we're not painting.
Painting as much of a picture as

you know, the apple spreads, you
want the sun shining, you want

sort of a terrace bar and all of
that.

But this is as a very new brand.
That is what we're going after.

Now one other thing about the
hard cut, I hope this isn't

answering your question, but one
other thing about the hard Cut

that I haven't mentioned.
So I've said that we are single

car squishies and we are
stronger than the average,

right?
Not only that, but the hard cut

spotlights New World whiskey
distilleries.

So New World whiskey
distilleries you can look at.

It's always got two lenses to
it.

One is for whiskey distilleries
that have come from outside the

big fives or the traditional
whiskey making country.

So Scotland, Ireland, America,
Japan and Canada.

OK, so any distillery that comes
from outside those five or a

distillery from within, those
fives who are making whiskey

unlike everybody else.
So they're taking this sort of

what if mindset and putting it
to their distillery.

So a brilliant example of that
is nickname in Scotland.

It's in Scotland which is seen
as a more a more traditional

whiskey country.
But you have brilliant,

incredible distilleries there.
I mean all of them are amazing

in their own life and you also
have these incredible new

distilleries there who are
trying to do something a little

bit different like nickname like
Ported Leathers just opened in

Edinburgh for instance.
So we're focusing on that.

Now the reason that I say that
this then leans into our target

consumer is because within the
world of woodsy and within the

world of whiskey consumers, you
have those die hard fans who

would drink Scotch or nothing as
a result of that.

And because of the way that
we're trying to position the

hard cut, which is very much
based on accessibility,

collaboration and education, it
means that instantly when not

appealing to that audience,
there are no age statements on

the front of our bottles.
You have in very small type the

date distilled and the date
bottled.

And so because of that design,
we're immediately not attracting

the attention of those die hard
whiskey fan, which is fine.

That's what we wanted to do with
this because that sets us apart

from everybody else.
And that's what my husband and I

are so excited about.
And we know that there is the

growth of that because actually
when you look at IWSR data, wild

whiskey is on fire.
New World Whiskey is like, it's

so exciting and that's why
you've got the passionate

distillers with these in making
amazing spirits laden with

stories about why they're
bringing them to life.

So in answer to your question, I
do believe it's I, I, I do lead

with target occasion.
I think that occasion is very

much based on your liquid
profile.

Well, for us it is anyway, if
you look at the hard facts about

what we're bottling, but then
you can also layer on top of

that your target consumer
mindset as it were that lays

back into it.
So for us with the heart card in

his people and consumers that
are excited to discover new

distilleries who are excited to
explore the world, people who we

talked about there.
My husband and I, in terms of

the person that we're going
after is a, we call it as

curious, curious foodie, someone
who's excited about flavor.

Now, there's no demographic
associated with that, there's no

gender associated with that, but
it is a I'd say it's more of a

mindset.
As it were.

It's very interesting.
I mean first of all like thank

you because there was a very
nice, I think you answered

another question as well within
that question.

So I like that because I mean I
would have asked you about you

know like the target occasion
and what's your target occasion.

So you you have answered that
question already and what I like

about it and I was listening to
you and and I really you know it

really match my thinking of what
I'm I'm doing when I when I'm

advising brands.
You know, like I'm really going

through all these points now
because you know, the ABV, How

does the ABV place do?
You do cocktails?

You do neat.
It's a set of, you know, two

roads, crossroads.
And then it's like you go left

or right, you go left or right,
you go left or right.

And it doesn't mean that if you
went right, right, right, you

cannot go left.
It's just that that's not what

you push in your narrative, in
your communication.

Then.
I mean if people want to drink

it, you know, if they want to
drink a 5957% EBV with sushi, I

mean so be it.
I agree with you on that on that

point that you know it's about
you.

You call it like consumer
mindset.

For me, it's also like, it's
it's the slash of like consumer

mindset and the state of mind of
the consumer in that moment as

well as the type of consumer or
even like the type of palate,

you know, that that consumer
had, you know, recently like it

it, it was just published today.
I was a guest in another

podcast.
It's called Marketing with Vani

and with Vani Gupta.
She's from India and the

marketer and also a professor at
university.

And we were discussing taste
profiles of people know and it's

like some of the things could be
cutting some people off because

of price, you know, and then
automatically you think it's an

older consumer or because of
taste profile and automatically

you think it's like it's a kind
of like rougher palate.

I mean it's more sophisticated
on one end, but it can handle

harder things on the other
hands.

But then at the same time, it
could be a rich kid that has a

father with a huge collection of
single molds and maybe he

started at 21 drinking cask
strength single barrels.

You know, of course they are
outliers but what we're trying

to do in the industry to make it
more you know, inclusive, you

know, so for women and for, you
know other people that don't

show up in the regular kind of
like whiskey drinker like 50

plus tweed jackets on a on a
leather armchair by the

fireplace kind of thing.
Now and and and this really,

really pushes this, this thing
is like I don't care.

I mean you could be a girl that
is like 29 and you may love cast

strength whiskey and I, you
know, it's totally fine.

So I don't want to do the
communication targeting a

certain type of consumer.
I want to target certain type of

people that like certain type of
things in that certain type of

occasion.
Oh, there is so much to unpack

there.
Yeah, yeah.

And if I could have my way.
Look, I'm not a one class

marketer, OK?
I own a brand with my husband,

which I love and I I know well,
I love him.

But I love the brand and I I
love being a brand owner and a

founder and facing all of these
challenges.

And also my background is in
brand advocacy, which obviously

straddles marketing and
commercial and strategy and

everything all in one.
If I could do one train, I would

ask people to throw away your
age and gender portrait of your

drinker please.
Because the number of times I

read whiskey decks, and I guess,
well, whiskey, we're really

targeting here someone who's,
you know, 30% of our audience

will be female and 70% will be
male.

Chris I I was 24 when I became a
global brand ambassador for the

Scotch More Whiskey Society who
deals in cast strength, single

cast whiskey.
And I was flying around the

world for six months of that
year doing presentations and

trainings with people twice,
three times my age talking about

whiskey.
Do you think that my pen

portrait was the pen portrait
that was on any deck I've ever

seen for any whiskey company?
Absolutely not.

And yes, I'm a bit of an
outlier, but I'm not alone, you

know, and I was thinking this
morning about target occasions

as well.
And obviously, we've just had

Mother's Day in the uki would
love to know from whiskey

companies whether they've spent
as much marketing on Mother's

Day as they do on Father's Day.
Because the number of times in

my career, I've spoken to people
and they've said, yes, well,

we're focusing on Father's Day
and they've said, well, what

about Mother's Day?
And I've had people say, well,

what about Mother's Day?
Said, well, if you're going to

market for Father's Day as a
whiskey brand, you need to do so

for Mother's Day.
Oh, you know, that's just not

seen to be as big an occasion.
And I'm like, well, it's not as

big an occasion right now
because we're not making it an

occasion.
Marketing tells stories, which

then creates the stories of the
future and the trends for the

future.
I mean, really little example

that I don't know, it's a silly
one.

But de bears, diamonds, you
would used to propose with

diamonds for engagements, right?
And then marketing came in the

way and they were said we should
have diamonds And and all of a

sudden whenever you propose you
have a diamond, you know, if we

all don't work collectively to
change how inclusive the wiki

industry can be And it is, it's
come and it come on so much in

the last 15 years I've been in
this industry.

But if we all don't work
collectively to do that, we're

going to carry on with some of
these stigmas that are out

there, such as Marcus Day and
Father's Day.

It's just one little example.
And sometimes it can also be

like a part of the blue ocean
strategy.

I mean like how how crowded is
Father's Day, You know, even

let's say I'm just like being
devil's advocate now, even if

you don't believe in that, you
know, try it.

Just because you know, no, no
whiskey brand would ever

advertise in in a supermarket
chain on Mother's Day.

So do it, You know just take
take the opportunity as a

commercial opportunity because.
You know, your promotion on

Father's Day most probably is
not going to work because

there's there will be all the
possible whiskey brands in the

country doing Father's Day
anyway.

And also it's like it's a bit of
a kind of like challenger

thinking again in in this kind
of things.

Because we know that, you know
there are some outliers out

there of course.
But at the same time it's like

those are the you know this
whole thing about super

consumers and like buyers, you
know the Byron Sharp, you know

how brands growth kind of growth
kind of things.

There will be a lot of like
buyers that will do you know the

thing with your brand anyway.
So just leave it open.

You don't have to do it like,
you know, be specific because

you have to be very specific in
the in the targeting, but in the

targeting of the venues, you
know on the outlets where you go

to the targeting of the
occasion.

Because if it's a cast strength
and it's over a certain price,

people will not have shots in a
club at 3:00 AM kind of thing.

But then leave it open from a
consumer perspective because

then you know the invisible
hands will sort it out somehow,

you know, you know, within those
boundaries that you have

created.
But don't set boundaries

everywhere for the sake of set
in them.

Totally.
I'd like to know one more thing

on top of that as well, which is
try something different again,

using the Mother's Day as an
example, you know, do some

campaigns, maybe put some of
your marketing spends towards

Mother's Day.
OK, it doesn't get the result

that you really were looking
for, but it does get a result.

Great.
Don't just say next year.

Oh, we tried it last year and it
didn't really give us what we

were exactly looking for.
Try again, but try it with a

different language.
Take a read.

Because from a cultural
perspective around us, culture

is changing year on year on
year, right?

So try it again.
Don't just do the same thing.

Have a read on what's going on
from a cultural perspective.

Speak to the outlets that you're
working with the year before.

Ask them how what they thought
it, how it went, what they would

change this time around.
Did you pick the right places?

Do a good audit of what you
think worked and what didn't

work and then try again the year
after.

Because again, so many times
I've spoken to people and said,

oh, we, we did a campaign for
Mother's Day last year and it

didn't work.
So we're just not going to do it

this year.
And they are.

Cool and.
OK, that was one step forward, 6

steps back.
And I I agree.

And and and it brings me to
another point that is one of the

things that I'm really hammering
on is that it's about like

accepting the right objectives
and KPIs.

No, because it could be that you
know, how are you judging that?

You know, like, and why are you
doing it?

You know?
Are you doing that because you

want to sell, you know, seven
more cases in a supermarket?

Or are you doing it because you
want to change something in the

communication of what you're
doing?

You know, because maybe what you
know what you should target.

It could be like what is the PR
that got out of it?

You know that maybe you were the
the challenging brand and then

some newspaper wrote about the
the Mother's Day, the only the

only whiskey that did it on
Mother's Day or one of the few

whiskeys that did it on Mother's
or whatever.

You know, maybe you got APR
exposure.

You didn't sell anything in that
supermarket.

You sold 3 bottles, but you got
a such a huge PR that is

enabling a change into
something.

And then next year there will be
all the mothers that like

whiskey that miss that, or all
the husbands that don't like

whiskey, whose wife like whiskey
you know will spot and there's

like shit, you know, I missed it
this year, you know, next year

I'm going to buy her a bottle
because she mentioned it.

She sent me that article, you
know, her friends were talking

about it.
So now it even sorted out a

present issue.
You know, it's like, I don't

know what to buy.
I'm always buying the same

stuff, you know, like, OK, next
year I buy her a bottle of

whiskey, you know, and then you
may be changing.

There is 2 lenses, as you said
before.

You know, one lens is the is the
purpose of how we want to drive

inclusiveness into the whiskey
industry.

And the other thing is it's even
just like let's call it like

collateral things like at the
agencies now of people that

don't really mind about that
aspect, but you are serving them

a solution to a problem.
You are driving something, you

are doing something else.
You're driving a novelty, you're

driving some new way of doing
things.

Even if you don't mind about the
other aspect you know, just do

it for what you care about.
Just do it for what you care

about.
And also do it because of a

moral code of trying to
collectively part of one

category help change and adapt
that category.

It might not end in sales, You
might get a pick up on your own

PR and your own sort of.
You might get a little spike in

your Instagram followers.
Brilliant.

You might not get as big as you
want, but what you have done

it's you've helped your category
slowly change And we all have

our own brands, yes, and we all
want our own brands to succeed.

But you know what's the saying?
The rising Kide helps sail all

ships.
The end of the day, you want

your category that you're within
to also succeed.

And so there are certain things
out there that you should do

that helps that category that
will then help your brand and it

will help other brands and then
it will help your brand again.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And if you're a challenger, you

know, like that's your excuse to
challenge the bigger players.

And if you're a big player, then
that's your way of doing

something for the industry, you
know, as such.

Now that's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, 55 and 56.
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