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SCP Chazara - Hilchos Basar Be'chalav
This is Khazar Shur number 8, where we'll discuss 2 main topics. Number 1 is tata gavr, and that's when you add meat and milk, where one of the ingredients is cold and the other one is hot. Whether we're gonna say that everything becomes forbidden. And number 2 is the sugya of a kfela, whether a non Jewish chef is trusted to say that when he tastes a piece of kosher meat, if there's some milk flavor in that meat or not. So, let's begin with the sugya of Tata.
Speaker 1:Gomorrah will basically open it up with 3 important and three important questions. Question number 1 is what happens if you have a piece of hot meat that falls into your iced coffee? You're serving, cholentan chambas and a piece of meat falls into your iced coffee. Question number 2 is what happens if your freezer, God forbid, melts, breaks, and then all the all the let's say you have melted ice cream there and and and meat, then everything gets mixed together. Or more common case, most people keep their milk on the door of the fridge.
Speaker 1:And your kid, he comes home and he doesn't close the milk properly. He slams the door. The milk falls into the fridge, and now you have now you and and it falls onto your leftover food from Shabbos. Are you allowed to eat that? And most commonly, this is a question that Rabbanum gets sometimes fairly often is that someone is taking a piece of meat from, from the oven.
Speaker 1:He's taking it out of the oven, or he's taking it out of a frying pan, and it falls on a dairy banyomo, let's say, pan or a dairy banyomo, tray that that came out of the oven and they made cookies with with in the morning. So what's going to be the alakha with all of these situations? That's where we're gonna try to to answer. So let's start with the the sugah itself. The gemara says that whenever you have hot food, hot meat and hot milk that touch or that they they get they come together, we assume that there's a full fusion of flavor because they're both hot.
Speaker 1:So the flavors of the milk and the meat fuse completely, and both are going to be asr, both the milk and and the meat, everything is going to be asr because everything is hot. What happens when one of the ingredients is hot and the other one is cold? So here the we the Allah says the shokar and potskins like shmuel, that tata'a cover, the bottom one overrides. So if you have a pot of boiling hot milk and a piece of meat falls inside, we're gonna assume that the meat the the hot the hot milk, which is on the bottom, overrides the top, the top meat, and and all the flavors fusion, all of it. And if it's a big piece of meat and there's no shisham against it, both the pot and the milk and the meat, everything is going to become asar, everything is going to become a trife.
Speaker 1:What about the other case where the top is hot and the bottom is, is cold? For example, a piece of meat, falls into my schnitzel. Excuse me. A piece of meat falls into my iced coffee. Right?
Speaker 1:What's going to be the alakkav here? So here the shukha, we can passkin, tatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatahatah therefore, the is that you can you take the the piece of meat out. You'd be able to and and all you need to do, though, is remove a kdiklipla. You need to remove a kdiklipla of the of the meat, and you need to remove a kdiklipla of the milk. Now how do you remove a kdiklipla of the milk?
Speaker 1:So here, the shulchanark poskins, like they were shown in that says that you're right. When it comes to liquid, there is no and everything is going to be. When would you need to remove a of the bottom piece? When it's like a brick and cheese, you have a hot piece of meat that falls on a brick and cheese, so then you would have to remove a of the meat and a good day clip of the brick and cheese. But when the meat falls into, falls into an iced coffee, since you can't have a good day clip in the coffee, you just drink the coffee by itself.
Speaker 1:And by the meat itself, what you need to do is just remove a good day clip on, and then you're allowed to to eat that piece of meat. So that seems very straightforward, very and very easy. However, if you go to Siv Zain, the over there has, as quotes the there's a a three way between the the and the gras on how to learn a gemara. The gemara that basically says that when you have a piece of chicken that falls into is this dairy dip, the alakht is that it's going to be mutter. But then the gemara adds a few caveats.
Speaker 1:The gemara says, one is a mutter when it's when it's raw. But if it's grilled and it's going to you need to remove a. Another Gamar adds, but if the if the meat has crevices or it's highly spiced, the whole piece is going to be awesome. So how do we learn that line in the Gamar? So the way the shulchanar of Paskins is that Gamar is talking about a hapisamit, and the Gemar is basically telling you the din of Tata Gavar where you have a hot piece of meat that falls into something that's dairy.
Speaker 1:The law is that you need to remove a kdiklippah of the hot piece of meat that's that's on top. But if the meat has crevices and if the meat is highly spiced so then the whole piece of meat is going to be asked. So in my chilling case, where I have a piece of meat that my stomach has crevices and it falls into my iced coffee, what the Shulchanark now is pasting that the whole piece is going to be, is going to be asked. That's how the Shulchanark learns the Gemar differently. He says that Gemar is talking about a cold piece of of grilled meat, meaning you grilled a piece of meat, and then you left it in the fridge.
Speaker 1:Where there the Gemara says that when when you have a a cooked piece of meat that touches milk, you need to remove a kadiklipa. But if that piece of cold meat also has crevices and also a spice, so then the whole piece is going to be kamas. And that's our fridge case. That's the case where milk spills in your fridge. If we assume that our piece of meat that's in the fridge has crevices and milk falls on it, even though everything is cold according to the shukan har Huat salaha according excuse me according to the rama what's alaha the whole piece is going to be asr and then you have the the gra who passkins like the other set of rishonim who says that really the what the what the Gemar is teaching us is that when we said that crevices then when the meat has crevices or it's spiced, the whole piece is going to become usar when it comes in contact with milk.
Speaker 1:That's even if the piece is wrong. That's even if it's not cooked. Right? So then even then the whole piece is going to become, is going to usar. So let's say with our our 3 questions.
Speaker 1:Right? Let's travel around the world and try to get get an answer. We have we have our questions or or or 2 questions. I have the the milk that falls into my into my, into my, my frying. I have the milk that falls into my kitchen, and it goes on raw meat, and it goes on cooked meat.
Speaker 1:Right? Right? And then let's say we also wanna ask the question of the of the piece of meat that falls into the iced coffee. So we've traveled to Tzfat and we asked the Rebbeos of Kara. We say, Rabbi, what's going to be the lachah?
Speaker 1:So we say, a piece of meat fell into my iced coffee. So the first question the is going to ask us, is the piece of meat, does it have crevices or not? If it doesn't have crevices, just remove a and enjoy. If it does have crevices, since the meat is hot, it's coming right out of the frying pan, right out of the chong pot, and it's and it has crevices. The is that the whole piece of meat is going to be usr.
Speaker 1:And the arkashokhan, by the way, says that most of our meat, almost all the meat has has crevices. Fine. So he said, Shkoyikh, Rabbi, we have another question, Rabbi Yosef Kar. What's our other question? My son closed the door and the milk spilled in the fridge, what do I do with it fell on raw meat and it fell on cooked crevice spicy, uh-uh spiced meat?
Speaker 1:What's going to be? The Allah says, what would the makha ber say? Rinse them off and enjoy, eat it, great. Now we travel to Krakow, we go to the Ramah, we knock on his door and we say, what happens to the piece of meat that fell into the iced coffee? He says, because it has crevices, everything is going to be And then we say, one second, we have another shayla, we have our fridge case, our fridge case where we spilled milk inside the fridge and it got on all the leftover it fell on all the leftover cooked food from Shabbos.
Speaker 1:So their mother is gonna tell us one second. If it has if it has crevices, if the meat has crevices, even though everything is going to be everything is cold, the is that all the meat is going to be Asner because the milk travels throughout all of the pieces of, throughout all of the pieces of the of the meat. And the whole thing is also though, there are masses that you could be make of the shah argues on that. He says even if you have some rub, you should be makmir, but, but, but there are my holds that bimalkem has some rubi. You could be you could be maple.
Speaker 1:But if it's not have some rubi, but it's a little bit of leftover food. Throw everything out, though. There are my is going to be maple if it's raw meat. If it's raw meat, we don't care about, crevices or not. Come, if we travel now to Vilna, and we go to the ground, and we ask him about our question that that the milk spilled in the fridge, what's he gonna tell us?
Speaker 1:Not only is the cooked leftover meat from Shammuz going to be usr because it has crevices, even if we have raw meat that's in the fridge and that raw meat has crevices and it has, or it has, or it's spice, The is that it's going to be, it's going to be us. So now how do we pass it on a laqam? So the says, like, Ashfaradim, he says, Svartim should hold like the Svartim. He could be Mahmur. But Ashkenazim, we try to be Mahmurim like the grub.
Speaker 1:Unless it's even by raw meat, we're going to be the chachmas Adam says that we should, we should, we should be machmir. So that's the that's the case of the of the fridge, which could taka happen. But what's the what's the very common case that does happen that, Rabaan, we get questions about this a lot, and that is when you have a piece of meat that falls on a tray that's milkuk. Right? So you I made cookies in the morning directly on a tray.
Speaker 1:They were milk cookies. I put them into the oven, and I took them out. And now it's 12 o'clock in the afternoon, and I'm making schnitzel, I'm making meat, and a piece of the meat falls onto the tray. So you have here a case of tatagavar where the Ramah Paskins that Tata Gavar applies even tequila. So if the bottom is cold, right, which is the tray, the tray cooled off and it's clean, and I have a piece of meat that falls on top.
Speaker 1:So Tata Gavar to go on top, what would I need to remove? I would need to move a kiteklipa. But one second, if my tray, if my piece of meat is, is, it has crevices, maybe the whole piece of meat is going to be asr. So comes the adhudo, and he says, no. He says, the only time we say that crevices, the whole piece is going to become asr, that's when it's a solid and liquid.
Speaker 1:Like when a piece of meat falls and gets mixed up with with milk, when my milk spills in in the fridge, that's when we're gonna say that the milk has the power to it spreads through the whole piece of meat. But when I put a piece of meat, a hot piece of meat on a brick of cheese or on a cold tray, then we have the actual din of tata gavar where you'll need to just remove a tata gavar and it's not going to travel into the crevices. The Ramah says, in another case, what happens if I need to remove a tata gavar and I need to remove, excuse me, tataig klippa and I don't, I forget to. So the Allah says, he says it's going to be matr, the Tas argues on it and the shav says that if the tataig klippa gets mixed up, gets mixed in, so then the Allah says that it's going to be matr and you don't even need shishim. And therefore, if you have a hot soup that you're serving in a dairy ben yomo bowl, that's dairy, let's how did that happen?
Speaker 1:Let's assume you put it in the microwave, you made cheese in the microwave in the morning or some way where we have a real dairy benjomo bowl. And I take my hot soup and I pour it directly inside. So if the bowl now is clean and cold, so we're going to say tata agavar. Tata agavar means that all you need to remove is a kediklipa, but a kediklipa of the soup, there is no kediklipa of the soup because the soup gets all mixed in together. So therefore, the Allah would be that the soup would be mutter, meaning even though the soup is fleashek and the bowl is a benjomo, dairy bowl.
Speaker 1:But since it's clean and all you need to remove is a kediklipa, so the lachiz that is going to be, it's going to be matr. So that was the sugah of Tatakah, very fascinating and very relevant Shailas that sometimes do arise. We briefly mentioned the sugah of salty meat, if the salty meat touches one another. So the shulchanar says it also, it's mafliya kaday klipa unless it's fatty and then it's the whole thing. And the Rama says, we don't really know what fat is.
Speaker 1:We don't really know what salt is, but we didn't really get into so much into the details. And we went right into the sugya of, of Simit Sadiq Bey. Simit Sadiq Bey discusses is basically here are all the the main, of, of. We're gonna learn about. We're gonna learn about.
Speaker 1:That's gonna be all all of that in or whether you can have it when you have an oven. Could I use it for milk? And then for but we just wanted to have to basically to start off and really get a few of the of the column down pack, a few of the the main the main things. How do you know bitl barov, minbimino, minbsheino minok, faila, tamkiker? What are what are all these things?
Speaker 1:So, we started off with the gemara that basically says that Allahkha is that you go after the rove, it's learned out from the just like in a base day, when 2 out of the 3 that the guy is high over mutter. So too, when it comes to meat, I have 3 pieces of meat, 2 are kosher. One is not kosher. The is that you can eat all 3 pieces of meat, and that's how we there's a machlokas whether one person can eat all 3 pieces of meat. But, you know, maybe you need to split it up amongst 3 people.
Speaker 1:But But but everyone agrees that all three pieces, lechora, are going to be are going to be mutter. So if the case is achirabbelmahatos, so we go after the rolf. So I understand. If I have a soup that's 51% meat and 49% milk, why don't we say akhiraba mohatos and, and the whole soup is mutter. I can eat the whole thing.
Speaker 1:Why suddenly is it going to be asaf? So here there's another concept that's called tamkeker. Tamkeker means that just the flavor is like the food itself. The Gemara brings a ride to this from Nazir. Let's say you have a Nazir who takes a cup and he fills it up with grapes, and then he adds water, and he lets it sit for a few hours, and then he drains out all the grapes.
Speaker 1:He takes the grapes out, but now you have a cup that's left with, that has water inside. So the Pasic says Mishra San Avim is also Asr, that even the soak, why? It says the Gemara, because the flavor of the water is like the ikr, just like because the nazar can't have the grapes, you also can't have the flavor of the grapes. So now when I have, even though I have a dish that has 59 percent 51% meat and 49% milk, because there's the fusion of flavor, there's tabka ikr, I I taste the the flavor of the milk, so the whole thing is going to be, Asr, meaning when we said that you go after the rove, that's by 3 individual pieces that when I approach each one, can I say, okay? Can I eat this piece?
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's a rove. Can my friend eat that one? Yeah. Because there's a rove.
Speaker 1:Could the 3rd guy eat that piece? Yeah. Because there's a rove. But tell me, he has the he has the the kasha piece. But once I cook the pieces together, once there's a flavor, once there's a fusion of flavor, so now we say tomkehika, that there's a main flavor over here, and, and and roll by itself won't won't be won't be enough.
Speaker 1:So how do we differentiate? How do we figure out whether you need to when you have a mixture of foods where the actual flavor, fuses together, how do we determine? So here the Gemara Paskins, that there's 3 ways to determine the the flavor food. 1 is by having a Jew taste it, which we'll discuss in a second. 1 is by having a non Jew taste it, and one is with Shishim.
Speaker 1:So what's the case of a Jew tasting it? That's when you have something that's permissible to some people and prohibited to other people. So let's say there's a little bit of an apple here that is Truma, and it was mashed. And I also have mashed, bananas, and that little bit of the mashed apple sauce fell into the bananas. Right?
Speaker 1:I'm not a Kohen, so I want to know, could I eat my banana mush? Right? So if it if the taste of the apple is there, it's going to be awesome. If the taste of the apple is not there, so maybe it'll be bottled. So what do I do?
Speaker 1:Says the Gemara, ask a Koi to taste it. He'll taste it, and, and it'll be mutter. A more common modern day scenario would be is that I make a neder, I'm not having apples. Right? And so then I can give it to you.
Speaker 1:You didn't make that nadir. So you can taste it. Does this banana mixture have, have bananas or, taste it tastes like apples or not? That's that's when, you can taste it. What about a nadir?
Speaker 1:What could a nadir taste it? That's when the food is awesome. I have a piece of meat and a little bit of milk falls on it. So do I need shishim, in this piece of, so excuse me. So it says the I just give it to a guy and he can taste it.
Speaker 1:And if he tastes in his chef and he says, I don't taste any of the milk in here. So it's going to be, it's going to be what's the last case? The last case is shishim. When do you need shishim connected something? You need shishim connected something when it's What does it mean?
Speaker 1:Is when I have 2 items that they both taste the same, where some is matur and some is is when I have 2 different types of food where one tastes different than the other. Right? So I have a piece of meat and a little bit of milk fell in it. So I can tell the non Jew, do you taste the milk inside? That's so that he can taste.
Speaker 1:But let's say it's let's say I have mashed, grounded meat, and I have a little bit of ground meat that's kosher and a little bit of ground meat that's not kosher, and and they mix together. So giving it to Anandu, he can't he can't taste it. There's not, it's not gonna be able to determine whether, meaning they both taste the same. One is it happens to be one's from Koshershid, and one's not. So what do you do in such a situation?
Speaker 1:In such a situation when they taste the same or there's no guy that's around in a case of min bashin. That's how you use then you use then you use shishim. So that's the those are like a few of the the important just to start off the seminar. And then we started off the seminar and we basically said, do today, do we trust on a non Jew? Meaning, in a situation where you have a piece of meat and a little bit of milk gets mixed up.
Speaker 1:Could we give it to a non Jew to taste the Shokinar Paskins? Yes. We can give it to Akfilah, and the shach explains it needs to be a professional chef who has a reputation to live up to or someone who is a guy that's Mashiach Mashiach Lafi Tuma, he mentions it in passing. The Rama argues and Rama says that you cannot, we do not rely on a guy and you always need shishim. So, therefore, if you take a piece of meat and you cook it by accident in a dairy frying pan, according to the shulchanarg, what do you do?
Speaker 1:Have a guy taste it, and if the guy tastes it, doesn't taste any meat, doesn't taste any milk, because of you can eat it according to the Ramahu, it's Alaka, you need shishim. And since you do not have shishim, you need 60 times the size of the pan. Since you don't have the piece, you don't have shishim. So the whole piece of meat is going to be, is going to be, Asar. The says to be like the Ram.
Speaker 1:But Rav Avabbadhi says that the you can rely on on. There was a fascinating case in in Eretz Israel, there was a family that was making, like, a Simcha bar mitzvah or whatever it was. It was, back in the day, and the people didn't have a lot of money, and they accidentally cooked all the schnitzel in a dairy frying pan. So So and they were Ashkenazi. So the question is, is there any way out?
Speaker 1:It doesn't seem like there is a way out, but there was a big rough, a big, a big, a big, whose name was Shimon Polanski, who, who who thought of a of a fascinating clap. He said when the Ramaz says that we that, Ashkenazim don't trust the guy, but who do we trust? He quotes from the that Ashkenazim trust another Jew. Meaning, if you have a case of of, of of, like, the Tuma apple that gets mixed up with with a banana that's not Truma. So I can, even though I'm Ashkenazi, I can ask a Koi to taste it and if he doesn't taste the Truma apple, the Allah says I can eat it.
Speaker 1:Why? Because the Ramah says we don't trust the tasting of a guy, but the tasting of a Jew, we do trust. So he says, He says, You have the frying pan over here, that's dairy, that meat schnitzel, that's fleshy. He says, So Ashkenazim, there's not really a way out, but what could Sfarin do? A Sfarin can ask a guy.
Speaker 1:You have a guy taste it, and if the guy doesn't taste any of the meats, so then what can happen? Now the can taste it, he's allowed to taste it. Now once the taste it, I'm in Ashkenazi, do I trust the I do, because the Ramaz says, we only don't trust guy, but Ashkenazi, we do We are able to trust and, but but Ashkenazi, we're able to trust other other. And therefore, the that, that you have the Guy, taste the food. If he doesn't taste in the milk, this is fine, you will taste it.
Speaker 1:If he doesn't taste any milk in the in the in the meat, so then Ashkenazi can trust him and Ashkenazi could, can actually eat it. So that's what wanted to suggest and, there are where the quotes others who who do argue on this, but that would be the the to be able to to do this.