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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
hello and welcome to the Moon chots
podcast it's episode
263 I'm your co-host Mike Parson and as
always I'm joined by the man himself Mr
Mark Pearson Freeland good morning Mark
hey good morning Mike good morning
listeners good morning members
subscribers viewers everybody who's out
there who's part of the moonshots family
thank you for tuning in on what is bound
to be an incredibly exciting kickoff
Mike for our brand new series on
creativity yes I'm ready to rock and
roll Mark oh you know who else is ready
to rock and roll that's right it's the
subject and topic of today's episode
that is the legend the renowned music
producer himself Mr Rick rubben I'm Mike
I know we're probably going to touch
upon him a little bit during this
episode we're probably going to
reference some of his accolades some of
his impressive uh behaviors around
creativity but I just want to name drop
a few people that know that he's worked
with they are people you know small fry
like the Beasty Boys or Run DMC Red Hot
Chili Peppers Johnny Cash Metallica
maybe Kanye West Adele oh yeah and Jay-Z
Eminem Tom Petty Black Sabbath you know
you get the idea it's a lot of
impressive people from a lot of
different musical genres and verticals
and I think Mike That's What attracted
you and I as well as the moonshots
members I think towards getting into
somebody as unique and creative as as
Rick Rubin right he's managed to
penetrate a number of different musical
genres and still be able to have almost
a record-breaking volume of Grammy
nominations and musical accolades to his
name yeah it's so true man like this guy
can play any genre he can play any game
and deliver the goods but I think even
more importantly than that I don't
remember a book on creativity that so
clearly outlined a methodology that you
can follow super down toe super
relatable super
doable and can really give you a
framework to produce truly great
creative work I think that's what we
have in his new book the creative act so
if you're thinking to yourself how do I
stay the course how do I actually get a
project from a to zed that has a lot of
creativity
requirements this show this book is for
you
what a setup mic you know what I don't
think there's anybody or anything that
you and I could do at this point better
than handing over to himself Mr Rick
Rubin himself that is uh to help
introduce us and kick off today's show
so without any more further Ado why
don't we hear Mike from Rick Rubin he's
going to be talking to Andrew hubman
about his creative process and how we
should all start by holding things
lightly when I engage in a particular
project whatever it is I I
dedicate all of
myself for that period of time whatever
it is whether it be 20 minutes or
whether it be 5 hours whatever it
is um total
focus and no um outside distraction
whatsoever and when I leave that process
I do my best not to think about it when
I'm away from it I don't bring any
materials with me I don't leave the
studio with Works in progress and spend
time listening to them during the day or
looking for ideas I I stay as far away
from it when I'm not directly engaging
in it as possible and in the best of
situations I have something else to
totally engage myself in in between so
instead of working on Project day for 5
hours and then leaving and doing nothing
I'm hoping to engage in a project b or b
c and d with all of myself before going
back to project a again which might be
the next day let's say this um relates
to an amazing uh chapter and series of
writings in your book that I'm not going
to describe because I want people to
find it for themselves about disengaging
about disengaging from the process one
question I had as I read that chapter
and as you're saying this now is even
though you're
disengaged do you believe that your
subconscious is working it through that
I believe so I believe so and I think in
general to Stew over a problem is not
the way to solve a problem think to
hold the problems
lightly uh this is really interesting
mark because in one way you might argue
that those two
ideas somewhat Clash he's saying go all
in which has an intense heaviness to it
and then hold them lightly I think it's
like packaging in discreet boxes right
you go in you go really deep like I get
the feeling when I hear him in this like
if you tried knocking on his Studio door
while he's in the Deep mode I I think
like World War
[Music]
II yeah I think you're probably right um
so what a great parallel to what we
learned uh from Cal newort on on his
book uh deep work but I get the feeling
Rick goes all in and because he does
this he can say look I'm all spent on
problem a for now I've gone deep for
several hours I can close up the box and
I can put it away and then I'm not like
constantly like trying to multitask it I
can move on to something else and
because I have a deliberate practice I'm
not worried about meeting deadlines
because I've allocated the time so then
he can go to something else and this
this works with another idea that we've
found quite a lot which is you know we
often use the analogy if you're giving a
speech in three or four weeks from now
start by writing down your first few
ideas and then say you know in a couple
of days I'm going to come back and go
deeper and then let the subconscious
start working its way through it there's
somehow very deep sense of preparation
and Readiness that you have when you can
allocate the Deep work over days and
weeks and I think we're our greatest
enemy here is trying to multitask and
never actually going deep um and that's
why I think we kind
of hold creative ideas
heavily because we never reached that
satiation that
satisfaction from a three-hour Deep dive
on a problem
and so as a result we're kind of still
doing that ad hoc throughout the day
over several days rather than the Deep
stuff and just the last round out on
this Mark is is this just not the modern
manifestation of what Einstein did is he
just thought about one problem
incredibly deliberately
consecutively until he got somewhere
with it and he he quite openly said I
think the only difference between me and
everybody else is I just focused on the
one thing for longer
right he actually said I'm no smarter I
just focused more and I think Rick's
giving us a hint on how to focus right
yeah I think look your summation Mike is
totally spot on in my mind I love the
call out that you had there around this
friction you know knowing that you're
going deep in something and then you can
step away you don't have that anxiety
where you know maybe subconsciously or
or consciously huh there's something
else I need to do but you're totally
right
Einstein creative genius in his own way
yes in science and math but specifically
a creative himself entrepreneur to a
certain extent you're right he was able
to probably do these deep Dives that
Rick's calling out have a real hard
Focus project a and then leave it give
yourself breathing space go and find
something else and that I think is a big
call out and that's where I can see a
project B being something like family
being something like maybe another
project you're doing for work or maybe
it's a personal Entre urial building
block or studying even or maybe it's
exercise maybe you're just trying to get
a little bit healthier it's a really
interesting call out from Rick where
he's basically trying a little bit like
Cal as you spe specified he's blocking
his days he's doing focused work on
Project a during his work time and then
he's doing those other projects in the
rest of the time to ensure that he is
the best version he can be when he comes
back to project a right yes and I I
would just give you this as a summation
imagine if we could spend just two hours
a day five days a week on our biggest
priority totally uninterrupted doing
deep deep work imagine how much progress
you make in a week or a month I
mean I mean that's progress I mean the
only other thing you could do once a
month I think is become a member of the
the moonshots podcast right you know
what I think you're totally right Mike
and the one of the things that really
stands out to me is not only it being a
kind of monthly um dedication to the
moonshot family via a little thing
called patreon but also it enables you
to get the good time feels but also get
your name c out every single week in the
moonshots weekly show as well as the
moonshots Master Series so please
welcome in those lucky and loved
individuals including Bob Niles I Trion
dmar Mar Connor Lisa Sid Mr bonjer Paul
Berg and cman Joe Christian samuela and
Barbara Deborah lass Steve and Craig
ravy evet R nikara Ingram Durk Vata and
Marco jet Roger Steph raw nimin Diana
kristofh Denise Laura Smitty Corey
Daniela Mike and Antonio are legends who
have been with us over a year as well as
Zachary Austin freden Ola Andy Diana
Margie Ron Jasper Fabian and our latest
addition into the moonshot members
family goong thank you guys so much all
for joining us day in day out week in
week out on the moonshots show and um
big tip of the hat and and thanks to all
of you who are members if you'd like to
become a member head over to Moon shots.
that's where all the goodness lays you
get your own podcast the moonshots
Master Series and frankly you get to
spend some more time with Mark and I
what more could you want in life well I
can answer this question I think want to
think about the creative process Mark I
would even go far saying you might want
to seed your creative
thinking well you know what I think
that's going to be the perfect segue mic
into our next clip of this show because
one of the key steps within Rick rubin's
book the creative way is uh a phasing of
creative work and effort and that one
like you just said is a little bit about
seeds let's hear from Doug Neil from
verbal to visual break this down for us
in a little bit more detail while Reuben
does not encourage you to stick to a
rigid creative process he does outline
for us four broad stages of the creative
process in the first phase of the
creative project you gather seeds you go
out and look for what might be the
interesting starting points for whatever
piece of work that you've decided you'd
like to make you collect these seeds and
for this beginning phase of the creative
process it is important to not compare
but simply gather as the seeds arrive
forming conclusions about their value or
fate can get in the way of their natural
potential we don't want to form
conclusions about what these seeds might
turn into too early on in the process
because that can get in the way of their
natural potential so here your work is
to collect seeds plant them water them
with attention and see if they take root
when I'm reading a book with plant of
creating a visual summary of it the seed
collection stage looks like underlining
interesting passages as I read and then
for this book I decided to use sticky
notes to do some quick sketches take
some quick notes one of these per
chapter of the book because they're so
short and Punchy so these are the seeds
that I gathered some of which decided to
take root and became incorporated into
the visual summary that I'm starting to
sketch out here in writing a book
collecting seeds is deciding on some of
the main ideas I want to share the
stories I'd like to tell the research
studies I'd like to reference Gathering
those individual pieces without yet
worrying about how exactly they'll all
fit together so I think the the catch
here Mark is when we do gather the
inspiration for a new project I think we
can rush to judging right oh that's the
way to do it for sure that's the one and
again it's this B battle with time and
and focus and and what you put your
attention on it's
almost everything is conspiring against
us to take our time and just gather
right um one of the things I like to do
if I'm working on a visually creative
project is to scan Pinterest and create
a board for something that's my
gathering seeds so I'm interested to
know M how do you try and make this
happen the Gathering of of seeds
look Mike I've I've been pretty guilty
in the past and and you probably
remember when we collaborate I do tend
to jump into Logistics pretty quick and
something that I through working and
partnering with a lot of people in the
past I'll try nowadays to be a lot
slower uh rather than trying to jump
into action stations and I think that
the trick for me has been um providing
more breathing space into the ideas
being shared
and creating a bit more of an
environment where myself and other
people around me maybe teammates and so
on can ask questions maybe um answer
questions to each other or share the
initial concepts with a broader team and
seeing what sticks so really for me
being curious in this early stage for
some people they won't want to share
those ideas with others that's okay too
you can just run it up stick it around
your house and whatever sticks as you
know we were just hearing from Doug and
lays a seed or a root then you can come
back to and you give yourself that
permission to explore and be curious
with those ideas rather than exactly as
we heard jumping straight into action
stations which I think can be a little
bit subjective can't it yeah it really
it really can but you know the thing I
notice about when you do create a
pin a Pinterest board or whether you
create a mood board behind you in the
office is you are bound to draw more
meaningful conclusions in insights about
what could be if you've gone through
that process over a period of time like
the thing that I really witnessed which
really is hard with creativity is when
you're like hey I need to basically
brief the design today and I've only
just started thinking about it today
invariably you will go to the easiest
most obvious
idea as opposed to the best
idea because you're you're so like oh my
God I got to deliver this brief by the
end of the day that there's no there's
no contemplation no rumination you're
like H let's just get it ship it let's
get it out and you know you're only
going to get mediocre work or or just
unsurprising and not very unique right
yeah yeah exactly it's it's the loow
hanging fruit what can we get out so
that we we stop getting bothered by our
manager or some other team who wants us
to do something you're right instead of
doing something that feels a little bit
of a disservice to their time as well as
your own spend more time do it properly
really allow that creative muscle to
stretch maybe with others yes and
because because we
defer um too much jumping to conclusions
because we
defer
um too much of that Rush that we often
get ourselves into oh that's the way by
allowing that seating process that
contemplation being open to
possibilities what I think is
interesting is arguably do you think
this next stage the experimentation do
you think this could be the I don't know
the peak of the Rick Rubin process what
do you think M well it's true if if the
first stage is all about Gathering and
figuring out where something's going to
take root this next stage which we're
going to hear from Doug again definitely
continues that threat and that process
but before I commit Mike to whether or
not I think it's important or more
important let's actually hear from Doug
himself break it down for us in a little
bit more the second phase of the
creative process is experimentation in
the experimentation phase you start to
see where these seeds might go you
explore different
directions you let them make their own
way toward the sun move in the direction
that they would like to go as opposed to
being overly controlling you want to let
them develop in their own way at this
stage of the process as Ruben says allow
the seed to follow its own path toward
the Sun and as You observe that path pay
attention to what you get excited to so
there's an encouragement here to follow
your excitement Reuben says often the
most accurate signposts are emotional
not intellectual excitement tends to be
the best barometer for selecting which
seeds to focus on but in that selection
process don't narrow your options too
soon Reuben tells us to first try
everything don't be afraid to explore
paths that you might not initially see
potential in because you could be
surprised and even if a given Direction
doesn't work out you can take solace in
the fact that quote every unsuccessful
solution gets you closer to the one that
works so in the experimentation phase
you're trying everything and you're
paying particular attention to what get
you
excited I like this Mark
because I think the emphasis once again
is pursuing path that you might even be
a bit skeptical but being open to Let It
Go its natural path because a worst case
scenario at least you know what doesn't
work right yes exactly that's right now
now the thing is
though by just naturally following the
past and seeing what works one of the
other things that I find that happens is
that even though you went down Route
four and it didn't quite feel right
there was one thing you discovered that
did work really nicely and you take that
and put that into idea two and then you
combine ideas one and two and you get
some unique thing and all of a sudden
you got a hit on your hands right it's
the ability just to like follow those
natural paths and don't close it out I
think what I notice is
particularly people feel the need to say
oh that one W work or um this is the way
to do it what you almost feel like Rick
saying is just suspend those judgments
just go down the natural paths and if
you just do enough
iterations emotional patterns oh I'm
always drawn like for example if I was
looking at three different art
directions if you're always seem to be
drawn to a direction as you're
developing all three at some point it's
good to ask why am I so drawn to this
what is it that feels really good and at
some point you will feel
confident that it is just so much better
than routes two and three but you have
to let that happen as opposed to trying
to judge that with insufficient creative
stimulus I think this is how it plays
out what do you think M yeah I I think
you're totally right I think
particularly with a genre like music an
industry like music where it's a very
emotional process you're trying to
communicate an idea or a feeling I think
it's very easy I would imagine for
artists to bin anything that they create
and think no no no this isn't it this
isn't it and it's like Rick like Doug
was calling out for us then it's that
intelligence rather than emotion sorry
emotion rather than intelligence yes and
I think you're right if we all take that
beat and think ah this isn't quite right
but what I do like here is this bit of
an idea this product you know going back
to Sarah
when she was founding Spanx you know she
knew that selling fax machines wasn't
part of the movie that she wanted to be
in but what she did know is that she
quite liked sales so she wrote it down
and came back to it later I think rather
than throwing the baby out with the bath
waterer and instead spending time to not
only consider what you like in life but
also what you might enjoy in your
projects in the art that you're creating
in the work that you're producing spend
that time to see what sticks and kind of
the things that you know probably make
you smile when you're doing them you
know for me when I'm doing quite a
difficult or intense project and I catch
myself you know circling a few words
that I keep on coming back to or things
that I really want to communicate to a
client or a partner those are the things
that I realize ah that that's kind of
the thing that's getting me up in the
morning that's giving me that little bit
of passion to continue going on this
process and exploring it further so
you're right finding those little
breadcrumbs is the secret I think to
continue continuing uh a joyful
exploration of the work that's at hand
yeah so I would if I think about
practical ways I get this done is you
know I love to have a couple of mockups
of an idea a couple prototypes of an
idea and I start to use those with other
people to gauge their
feedback just for example um I was work
walking working on on the launch of a
new uh television channel earlier this
week and uh this great brand expert that
I'm working with showed me three
directions and we did exactly this we
did the
experimentation and we asked ourselves
like what did we think of this then we
brought some other people into the
process and um we def we we basically
had three treatments of three very
different um
Brands and it was really good to see the
expressions and to hear the rationale
behind it so we didn't just have one
design say oh that works we deliberately
pursued three in fact the uh the brand
specialist was saying to me oh listen I
I really liked one but I still kept
doing the other two and it was really
good
because what I could see here was doing
with me is like hey so this is how I'm
feeling how are you feeling and I think
if you want to see a natural path that
creating a prototype
comparing um And discussing are what
it's how you get the experimentation
feedback because any experiment is truly
about I do this and what happens right I
create this how do I feel how do others
feel what does this evoke and I think if
you want to go out and experiment just
think of have a prototype
and to get people to give you feedback
on this prototype yeah I I love that I
remember working with an art director
many years ago who we were doing a
Rebrand of of a business in Europe and
he found a route that he really really
loved and said no no this is it this is
the only way they can do it and the
client would say no no no let's let's
see a couple of others and you know the
team would all say come on mate let's
explore maybe one or maybe two more and
he said all right so he started
exploring a couple of different routs
you know in in Rick's anguage maybe
Project B project C and eventually over
time he realized actually I was
incorrect with my first recommendation
because it doesn't work in the long run
when I actually explored the other areas
that's when I realized oh no this is it
and now I prefer these ones so maybe
another trick Mike is to have to force
yourself into creating more than one
thing much like your brand specialist is
doing in order to Quality assure some of
the other work that you're doing
alongside it it's kind of fun keeps the
creative Journey going doesn't it yeah
yeah and if particularly at the
beginning if you've really explored a
lot of different approaches uh you get
this sort of this Magpie effect that I
talk about like you still oh even though
we didn't go down Route four we can take
one of the techniques that they used or
one of the ideas and put that in here
and remix that I think that's where you
start to get those combinations which
lead to like new exciting formats that
that are a bit outside of of of what we
might
expect now mag now some of this that
we're talking about touches upon the
work of many people that we've covered
in the past I mean I'm thinking about
Walt Disney I'm thinking about Elizabeth
Gilbert uh John C these are all great
creative folks that we've studied in the
past and um mark look if people are
really getting their creative juices
going listening to this episode
obviously there is a destination you can
go to where you can get the whole back
catalog we can get all
263 episodes of the moonshot show by
navigating over to www.mon shots. you
can get transcriptions for every single
episode you can see the upcoming shows
that we have planned and you can even
click on a little button up at the top
and become one of those highly valued
members that you heard of earlier in the
show but Mike in addition to that all of
our listeners can go and check us out on
all of the podcast platforms as well as
places like YouTube we want to spread
this idea of learning out loud so as
many people who can join us as possible
please do so yes and if that's got you
feeling crafty then we've got the
perfect clip for you because the Rick
Rubin Adventure Continues Mark yeah it
does the Rick Rubin Adventure Show is
here upon us with another clip now Mike
this one again coming from Doug is going
to help us understand this phrase that
we're going to hear a little bit about
this idea of a winding staircase oh that
sounds challenging already Mike I don't
know whether I want to fight or flight
for that so let's hear from Doug helping
us help helping us think about refining
idea now that you've got through the
seed and the experimentation and into
the next stage which is all about
execution and
crafting this is when you bring in a bit
of focus and you start working your way
up what Reuben calls this winding
staircase
where instead of experimenting with a
bunch of different directions you focus
on a steady climb
upward as he says look away from the
open field and turn toward a winding
staircase 100 stories tall that probably
sounds a little bit daunting that's
quite a long way to walk up but what's
interesting about this stage compared to
the previous two is here is when you
bring more of yourself into the work
Reuben suggests that in these first two
you let the ideas guide the way way this
is when you bring in your personality
your taste your perspective which when
combined with the let's call it natural
potential of that particular seed I
think makes it easier to do this steady
climb upward So within my work in this
experimentation stage I am focused on
what excites me about the ideas that I'm
reading or the potential things to
include in the book that I'm working on
but then it's not until the crafting
stage when I start to actually bring my
full self into the process to perhaps
share some of the personal stories
related to the ideas that stand out to
me in the case of making a visual
summary like this and the same with a
book when you move from an outline to
actual writing it's not just about the
ideas and stories that you decide to
tell but how I choose to weave them
together in my own voice in this
crafting stage momentum is important so
Reuben encourages us to not rush but do
work quickly yeah I like this so this is
that shaping right and you can almost
feel like we just did a bit of a pivot
from Divergent thinking to convergent
thinking um it's sort of like now you
need to make your choices about the
Avenues or the staircases that you want
to climb to use a rick rubben um
metaphor now I think the important thing
here if I was to use writing a book
analogy if you've got your book outline
you know you roughly know look I want to
do 12 chapters each chapter has two main
parts I think you want to kind of get
into the rhythm of writing those because
once
you get this crafting stage going you
want to re the the tempo that I sense is
it's it's almost like you know the
playing field you know how to score the
points you just want to play now right
you've you've done your preseason
training you want to get into it you've
made your choice
this is how you go so I think this is
where you know you really want to have a
daily practice what I find is chipping
away at creative projects on a daily
basis is really effective because when
you switch into
it this focused recurring Rhythm means
that you don't have this oh where did I
get to last week I haven't touched this
for 5 days there was a weekend in
between and you know how sometimes you
can be a bit slow on the uptake if you
haven't got the high frequency of
creative activity like I think to me to
make crafting happen it's like even if I
don't feel like it today do it today
anyway keep the the connection to the
work high so you're in the mind space
otherwise like the critical thing for me
is if I'm not WR like I really do try to
write three articles a week and I know
that there's a rhythm to that and that I
need to work on that Contin ously so if
I don't feel like writing today like a
full
article I will then hun around for well
what are what's a topic list maybe I get
five or 10 topics where I kind of only
write this the headline and then um I
can come back to it the following day I
think the real problem here is if when
we're on a creative project and we allow
too much time to dissipate between the
activities we we're B Dusty you know
we're like where was I so I like I like
to get into like these rhythms of three
times a
week twice a week four times a week this
seems to be roughly my frequency for a
creative effort what about you if you're
going to get focused on something let's
say you're writing uh the tales of Mark
Pierce in Freeland like what would be
your focused effort what would be your
Rhythm once you're at that shaping and
crafting stage look I think by that time
I've gone through the seaing spot and
I've got through that sort of
experimentation moment into this new
phase of crafting I'd like to think that
I have a little bit of a a habit but as
we know habits are only as good as when
you can actually uphold it and I think
what we've heard from Doug and by proxy
obviously Rick today is there's a fine
balance between being super super
disciplined and focused as well as
having enough Freedom around yourself
I'm reminded of Julia Cameron with uh
joural you know having the morning Pages
going out for a walk and so on really
specifying your own time and being quite
strict with your own Freedom which
sounds kind of counterintuitive I need
to be strict and disciplined around how
much time I'm not working yeah but I
think actually that's one of the tricks
isn't it it is in order to maintaining a
a Cadence with the work that you're
doing yeah because what I've observed in
the times when haven't prioritized rest
um the artist's way as well was another
great book um I think that was Julia
Smith I think if if I remember I will
have to get our listeners to go into the
back catalog mic and and find us that is
that is the that is the quick uh the
quiz question who wrote journal and who
wrote artist pages I think Mark might be
throwing you on a on a bit of a curve
ball I think he may have mixed his
authors there but that we still love you
all the same makim Mo but here's the
thing for you like when you think about
the patterns in both of those books but
also what we learn a lot a lot from
different
Superstars is to prioritize first things
first meaning in my practice I write a
journal before I open my email in the
morning because I know as soon as I'm in
into email I'll have got all of the
European and American emails I'll be off
to the races things to do so I just know
that I need to write that journal in the
morning before I look at my email before
my first call now in the case of today I
had to dictate my journal on the way to
the cafe to get my coffee before my
first call at 8: a.m in the morning now
the point here is I knew if I didn't
sneak in a quick dictated
Journal that I was running the risk of
not writing today so I will even do this
MK to ensure that I write in the morning
every day if I'm really busy if I've
started a call an early call and
realized I haven't written my
journal I will take a moment and write
one word entry for the day one word as
just about the focused effort and the
continuous repeatable habit because as
as James Clear an atomic habit says once
you've skipped a Hab skipped a habit for
two days in a row that is the new haveit
it's
gone that's it they disappear like that
don't they and I think you're right Mike
in in the tales of Mark Pearson Freeland
the way that I would do it is through
that yeah repe repeated effort but with
enough space around it to find that Joy
of life and also not to let it become um
a difficulty you know we heard you
obviously referenced Einstein earlier
I'd say that another great creative
genius would be Dyson you know going
through that volume of iteration as well
as crafting and experimentation similar
to the process we're doing today yes he
was able to then create a product that
did uphold his ultimate goal yeah and I
think that was just from repeated Strain
To be honest but also having the ability
to rest review have a look at what
worked and then like you said be a
magpie and take those good ideas onto
the next thing what do you think
um once we've got a regular habit going
let's just say we're writing your book
and you said I'm going to write just one
page a day that's it and it's going to
be like a 300 page book so that'll get
me done in a
year going up this staircase doing the
shaping and the
crafting what do you think the greatest
challenge after making sure you do it
every day what comes next as the
challenge what's the hard thing about
completing this stage what do you think
is the is the is the real hard
stuff one word ego I think that is the
blocker for a lot of a lot of the
individuals that we've covered on the
show you know particularly you know
Elizabeth Gilbert I know we've
referenced her a few times already today
she makes a big case for ego being the
reason why people get blocked or better
said why people don't release the work
or even don't start the work that
they're to try and do
so if I understand what you're saying
you're like as I'm like getting into
writing the the book I'm looking at my
writing and being my own worst
critic yeah I I believe you know going
back to our series with Austin Cleon
yeah he obviously had a great call out
just start give yourself time permission
to explore see what
happens I think in addition to the work
that he said shared as well as some of
the other individuals from our creative
series
you've also got to work on being
comfortable with the job that you're
doing and how it aligns to you as a
person you know I think ultimately the
project the product or the book that
that maybe I'm writing is going to have
to be something that I'm comfortable
with releasing you know I sure that
there are authors or musicians out there
that hate the work that they create
right um I'm not sure who but I'm sure
it's much more difficult to to do that
in instead I feel as though it's worth
more of your time to get comfortable
with the idea comfortable with you being
the face let's say of that product or
the facilitator of a workshop yeah to
then be the best version of of you in
that situation you know if you're
uncomfortable I think other people are
going to kind of see that and instead
simultaneously while working on the job
while keeping the habit of getting up
every day and doing Journal if you're
also working on yourself from a
confidence or um transparency
perspective I think that can only only
do good so it's interesting the way I'm
relating to this is that um you know I
would really like to write a
book and I'm I'm G to be very open in
saying I don't think I'm like naturally
talented writer like it doesn't come
particularly easy so I have to work
really really hard on it it's a bit like
you know goggin actually says that I'm
not like a natural Runner which you find
hard to believe given how he runs and
how good he is but he just says he has
to work harder and um I also by the way
relate to that I'm also not a natural
Runner
work um anyway but back to what I was
gonna say is that the way I have process
this in the crafting phase is that my
goal my intermediate goal for writing a
book is just to write three posts a day
on the blog for my company
and I know that I am writing to and
about and covering the subjects that
will be in my book so I'm going through
almost a prototype of every page and
every chapter of the book as little
bite-size posts and honestly I think I
have another year and a half of blog
writing before I get to the moment where
I actually start on the book yeah but
somehow there was an unlock for me and
remaining
focused because I'm literally covering a
whole series of
topics and I'm quite comfortable and
satisfied because I'm hitting three
posts a
week and in a funny way I can just enjoy
that and I can know that in one and a
half years from now I'll be ready to
write the book and I'm in no hurry so
the ch of that goal was quite powerful
for me to sustain the effort yeah and I
think the key call out there and even
I've scribbled it down on my side Mike
start today you know at the end of the
day these projects are the culmination
of a lot of time a lot of effort a lot
of discipline and somewhat sacrifice in
certain situations and what you're doing
is exactly that early stages you know
you're doing all the hard work so then
it becomes that a little bit easier in
the long run doesn't it I think so like
I feel that having covered all those
topics what'll happen is when I do turn
to the book I'll have already kind of
written the book in my head because I've
done all these blog posts so I'll be
able to go oh I don't really agree
exactly with what I said a year ago so
that gives me a more powerful point of
view in the book rather than discovering
it as I go through I'm also playing with
different writing styles different
formats and structures so that to me is
a great way to enjoy that that crafting
phase and not getting dispirited or or
bummed out or just changing the goal so
that you're not classic you know don't
want to get six back ABS in 30 days I'll
do it in 30 months yeah exactly yeah
that's
it
wow some amazing stuff that we've
already learned Mike I mean I think if
I'm putting a quick lid on it we're kind
of getting to that culmination stage now
aren't we I think we are but you know
the great thing is Rick Rubin ain't done
yet I know if you can believe it we
still have yet another tip from Rick
rubin's four stages of the creative way
and this time Mike we're actually going
to close out with Doug as well he's
going to reveal this final moment this
moment of perspective this moment of
finalization and this moment where you
can put the product out into the world
ready for people to
see once we've done lots of crafting
we've worked our way those 100 stories
then we get to the completion stage as
Ruben says this is where we leave behind
Discovery and building with a beautiful
volume of material crafted before us the
final form is refined to be released
into the world so this stage is about
refinement and it's also about
perspective this is a stage at which
Ruben encourages you to maybe start to
show your work to a few different people
not necessarily to get their specific
feedback and incorporate that feedback
into the work you can do that but that
perspective is more about viewing the
work that you've spent your time
individually it's helpful to see your
work through the eyes of someone else
and when you share it with someone that
kind of happens automatically if you
play the song for one person or a crowd
if you read your essay out loud to
someone else even without getting any
feedback from those other people you're
still going to have a different
perspective on the work because it's not
just existing in your head it lives in
between you and the person that you're
performing it for and that will allow
you to perhaps do a little bit of the
final stages of refining as you
recognize the things that work and don't
quite work once you've got that audience
there to change the perspective with
which you're viewing the
thing yeah so the one thing I would say
here on what Rick is recommending I
would bring forward that feedback in the
process I I don't know whether that's
from the prototyping work we've done
together mark
I quite like getting early stage
feedback I think maybe the the the care
to take is don't just because one person
says I don't like it doesn't mean you
stop I think when you when you're
refining your work you it's it's good
that if it evokes a strong response be a
good bad or
otherwise strong response is good right
but I don't think you want a sample size
of one and like throw away all your work
just because one person didn't jive with
it right yeah that that's EX exactly if
I'm going to show my partner or a
colleague and they don't necessarily um
align with it that's okay maybe it's not
for them maybe it's a different
demographic different Target AI yeah you
know going back to Sarah Blakeley
selling fax machines you know just
because she wasn't a big fan of doing
the job doesn't mean that it's not a
great job for others you know there's
total subjectivity in all of these
things isn't there and you're right I I
do somewhat agree I I think my image of
Rick is in his uh Production Studio Beav
away he is the master maybe the goat
beneath Quincy Jones as we were talking
about prior to the show but I think for
a lot of us seeking you know some
feedback is going to be valuable and
helpful uh maybe earlier in the process
only because then you can get a sense of
H is this what customers are looking for
okay well no problem maybe we refine it
and to steal your word again be a magpie
and kind of take it over and it kind of
feels maybe more in within the
experimentation and the crafting phase
that moment of sharing with a with a
customer um doesn't it yes and I think
that um refining and polishing something
I mean I think the the big thing in my
mind there is how do you
know when you're
done now I think this is a really
interesting question so if you're
writing let's go back to your book Mark
okay so you're writing the book how
you're in the refining phas but here's
the question how do you know when to
stop refining and launch your
book well I suspect it
is helpful to have a deadline in mind
you know I think given time we all can
delay and want to delay uh the final uh
deliverable of anything that we're
working on I'm sure when asked a lot of
people would say no no a little bit more
time for that project a little bit more
time would make it better and the truth
is having a deadline is actually
incredibly helpful because then it
provides that focused effort that we
were hearing from Rick earlier in
today's show so in answer to your
question where I'm sort of rounding up
here is I think you know the project or
the product is nearly done because
you're reaching that final moment when
you said it was going to be done
otherwise you at least for me Mike maybe
others are different but I think I would
be uh uh I would continually look to
extend it just a little bit more to get
maybe a little bit more value out of it
maybe push it a little bit
further what about you when do you know
things are ready look I think um put
everything
aside if the main feature of a product
can generate a wow from a tester a
genuine oh wow that's pretty good and
it's not induced it's not coerced it's
just wow that's pretty good regardless
of how much else is Rough and Ready and
not complete if there's some wow in it
some strong oh that's neat even if it's
missing some pages and functions and
features but there's some wow in it I
think when that's
like missing
wow and it's just like oh I guess that
would be good when that's bit works like
that's a Telltale that it's not ready
right yeah but if your primary your
killer app your key feature has the
power to genuinely wow someone in
testing then I'm like ship that let's
get it going right because the wow is
what you're truly looking forward to if
it is
wow but in the case of your book the
cover designs really doy or um some of
the reference and citation is is is not
there dude like let's go let's go let's
get that because if people are like oh
wow this is really good then like get it
out there I think there's too many
products that go out that have literally
zero wow that don't do their core job
well whether it's to inspire to inform
entertain they just don't do it if
you've got genuine wow and and I would
say you test it with some someone you
don't know and they're
like genuine unprompted unaided wow or
the equivalent thereof man get that
thing out there stop stop refining Mark
launch publish go go go yeah that's it
well like Rick was saying you know
you've got to work uh not rushed but
focused get that completed fast and keep
that momentum going so I think you're
right Mike you and Rick you'd probably
have a lot of time on your hands to talk
about music as well as getting things
out the door yes yeah he's a cool cat
imagine how great that would be to meet
him now you've met him on this show
youve studied his work what is your
homework assignment Mark well I think
Mike maybe coming into that final piece
you know where we were touching upon how
to know when things are ready I think
that's probably revealed to me straight
away that I have a tendency to maybe
leave it for a little bit longer I think
I need to work on figuring out exactly
when project or a product is about to be
done and when it's injecting that wow
that's the work I'm going to I'm going
to do review some of the projects and
see what's sitting on the on the red
light on the medium colored light what
about you Mike after a day of Rick Ruben
deep diving what's standing out to
you uh so somewhat step two of his
process with the
experimentation I think I could let
things go their natural path for long
um I I can be a bit of a rusher when I
think I got it I can be a bit of a rush
rush rush so yeah like experimenting a
bit more and and creating time for it as
well I just don't think I create enough
time for it you know well yeah time is
going back to one of your questions
earlier what's the thing that blocks
people doing it it's either ego or time
yeah yeah yeah yep and if you don't
control and manage your own time the
truth really is nobody else will nope
nobody else will well Mark I want to say
big thank you to you Great Clips what a
great creative opener for another
creativity series wow get ready
everybody here on show 263 with Rick
Ruben and the creative actor I want to
thank you our members listeners and
viewers for joining us on what was not
only a four-part action pack way of
being creative but it all started with
getting all in and then when you come
out just hold things lightly don't let
them bog you down and there was four
steps seed experiment craft and
completion do those things and you will
let
things grow and incubate in your
creative being you'll be able to put
things out into the world that truly are
the best version of yourself which is
exactly what we're all about here on the
moonshots podcast that's a wrap for