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UNLOCKING CHANGE is a production of Colorado Radio for Justice (CRJ). It's an in-depth conversation between CRJ's system-impacted hosts and reporters with leading voices in the criminal-legal space. What is “justice”? What is “freedom”? How might these aspirations become real in our communities & across our culture? www.radioforjustice.org
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[00:01:24] Javier Mabrey: I believe that we can provide free college to everybody. We have enough wealth in this country to make sure that everybody's needs are met. We should have guaranteed education, guaranteed healthcare, guaranteed housing, guaranteed food, and then after that, great. We live in a capitalist society. Make a better phone, make a better computer. Sure.
[00:01:53] Introduction To Javier Mabrey
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[00:01:53] Herbert Alexander: Today we're gonna be talking with you a lot about things that pertain to the criminal legal system, criminal [00:02:00] justice system, however they put it.
We can start off with you, your title, and you know what it is that you do.
[00:02:06] Javier Mabrey: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to, chat with you all today. I appreciate that you called it. The criminal legal systembecause I think a lot of people don't feel like there's much justice, in the system.
My name is Javier Mabry. I am a State House representative. I represent Southwest Denver, in the State House, and I am the chair of the House Judiciary Committee. I'm a renter's rights attorney. I represent renters across the state who are facing eviction or harassment for their landlords.
When I went to law school, I knew I wanted to do some form of anti-poverty work. Proud to have helped start one of the biggest anti-poverty nonprofits here in the state.
[00:02:47] The Legal System Works as Well as Intended
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[00:02:47] Javier Mabrey: Could you give a broad explanation on how you feel about the criminal legal system?
I believe that our criminal legal system is working exactly as it was intended to work. I believe that system is a system that is not focused on keeping us safe. I think all of us, everybody, regardless of their walk of life, would agree that one of the highest and most important functions of government is to keep us safe.
Of course, we all agree with that, but in the United States, the way we're doing it is not working.
[00:03:28] US Prison Population and Criminalizing Poverty
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[00:03:35] Javier Mabrey: We have 5% of the world's population, but we have 20% of the world's prison population. Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, these countries that we learn about in middle school and elementary school as being overly oppressive.
Lock up fewer people. Than we do here in the United States. Now, that's not to say their systems are good or something we should aspire to, it's just an example to show that the land of the free actually locks up more people than these countries that we hold up as examples [00:04:00] of being particularly unfree.
Our system criminalizes poverty. I've dealt with the criminalization of poverty firsthand. When I was in the fifth grade, my mom who has disabilities, me and my brother, were raised by a single mom whose only source of income was her social security disability check.
One day, she didn't come pick me up from school. Five o'clock, most of the kids are gone, six o'clock, almost all the other kids are gone. And then eventually it's just me and the principal of the school sitting in her office. Around nine o'clock at night, a Denver police officer shows up at my elementary school, picks me up, tells me that my mom had been arrested.
Turned out that my mom was arrested because she had an unpaid ticket, the original ticket was related to our dog barking too much and we got like a municipal violation. Then she didn't show up to that court date. Then she got a failure to appear. Failure to appear fine was $500. My mom never paid that.
And then she got arrested, spent a week in jail.
[00:05:01] Pretrial Sentencing
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[00:05:01] Javier Mabrey: We see this, play out in how we deal with pretrial sentencing, right? Cash bail is not something that keeps us safer. Whether or not you can afford to pay bail and walk free is not a measure of the danger you pose to our communities, right?
You could be a murderer that's a millionaire and be able to walk free. We should not be basing decisions like this based on how much money you have and we see it with the president of the United States and up to the highest levels. Right. It seems like there's criminal impunity for the wealthiest individuals, while poor people can get locked up for not having enough money.
[00:05:49] Personal View of Poverty in Our Systems
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[00:05:49] Herbert Alexander: I wanna go back real quick. when you were in the fifth grade and you saw your mom getting arrested and you knew at that moment, did you know what the circumstances were with the situation you were in at that moment as [00:06:00] a child?
[00:06:01] Javier Mabrey: You know, it's interesting to, to sort of think back on it because as we get older we can kind of like project our perspective back on our younger self.
I didn't really understand what was going on. I definitely understand that the circumstances that we were in were unfair. I understood that we were poor. I definitely didn't conceptualize in the fifth grade that this only happened because my mom was poor.
[00:06:28] Herbert Alexander: Did she go to jail actually?
[00:06:29] Javier Mabrey: She was in jail for a week.
Again, my mom is disabled. A couple years before I was born, my mom was in a really serious car accident. She had to relearn how to walk. When I was born, my mom was actually in a wheelchair. But by the time I was in fifth grade, she could walk again. The fact that she has those physical disabilities, my mom also has some mental disabilities that resulted from that car accident.
I was scared for my mom that she was in jail.
[00:06:53] The Path to Reforming The Criminal Legal System
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[00:06:53] Herbert Alexander: I'm formerly incarcerated and we tend to think that nobody really cares about, like the work that you do.
We don't know that there's people like you doing this type of work.What led you to this type this type of work?
I definitely am very
[00:07:08] Javier Mabrey: motivated by my life experience.
One of the lanes that I focus on as a lawmaker is reform of the criminal legal system. To deal with some of these unjust systems where people are getting disproportionately punished.But I also dealt with a lot of other economic issues. My family, we were poor growing up.
My mom's only source of income was her social security disability check, and we grew up knowing what it was like to get your power cut off, knowing what it was like to rely on food banks, knowing what it was like. To not have water in your house. I remember going up to the Safeway down the street from our house, and they had this little hose where they would water the plants that they have out there in the summer and we would basically steal water from them to pour
in the back of our toilet so that we could flush our [00:08:00] toilet and eventually, when I was a teenager we got priced outta Denver. I was homeless for almost a year and we relocated to Oklahoma, which is where my mom is from Originally. I grew up having grown up here in Denver.
I dropped outta high school in the 10th grade and I went back to school, got my GED because I wanted to fight to make the world a better place for people like my mom. Through the course of my education really sort of latched onto a few issues.
Like how can we build a better world where people aren't worried about putting food on the table.How can we keep our community safe while doing so based on evidence.So in college, when I'm learning about how the system is working and I'm learning about situations, like my mom is in, study after study, after study, after study, show that
[00:08:56] More Likely to Recidivate
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[00:08:56] Javier Mabrey: locking people up for more time and having people more involved in the criminal justice system does not keep us safer. Those people are more likely to recidivate. We need to be focused more on rehabilitation.
If we're living in a community where people are unable to afford housing, unable to feel that they can advance themselves in life and feel hopeless. Of course, we're gonna see more crime. I went to law school to fight, to build a world where our neighbors and people like my mom and families like mine could thrive.
[00:09:35] The Habitual Law and Its Effects
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[00:09:35] Javier Mabrey: You touched a little bit about locking people up for a long time. Could you maybe expand a little bit about what you think the habitual law is and what the negative effects of it are?
These systems are incredibly flawed. We hear about circumstances where people have done a paperwork crime, like written a hot check and maybe a nonviolent theft. Like maybe you write another hot check and then you end up in [00:10:00] jail for 64 years for the rest of your life. How is that treating people fairly? How is that due and fair process under the law because people who are poor are more likely to be in those circumstances in the first place.
As a society is it something that we really want to be doing? Locking people away for this long, especially when there's the racial disparities.
[00:10:29] White Collar Crime Disparity
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[00:10:29] Javier Mabrey: I will say that individuals are operating in the system as it's designed, you know, and so I feel like a lot of times these individual district attorneys are just doing things the way that it is.
I'm sure certainly that there is some of that vindictive nature there. But what about after the 2008 financial crisis where there were these peopleBernie Madoff, Fannie Mae, all these huge banks. And they committed fraud.
And did they go to jail? Did the prosecutors really go after them that hard? You know, what about, I say this a lot. Here in the capitol, there was a bill on wage theft and holding contractors accountable for not paying day laborers for their jobs. We treat theft very differently depending on who is doing the stealing, right?
If you're an unhoused person and you are like trying to steal a meal just something to eat the way society comes down on you, versus if you own a huge company and you are stealing the work of your laborers, it's reflective of what our priorities are as a society. And are we trying to lift up people who are struggling?
Where do we decide to put accountability? And we put the hammer down so hard on people who are doing sort of these one-off crimes to get [00:12:00] by Where is the accountability on the people who are literally destroying the lives of thousands, if not more. I'm not saying the solution there is lock up the Bernie Madoff guy for 64 years either, to be clear.
It's just a reflection of what our priorities are as a society.
[00:12:15] Who Belongs in Prison?
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[00:12:15] Herbert Alexander: Do you feel that there's people that do belong in prison as well oreverybody should do a little bit of time and go free?
[00:12:24] Javier Mabrey: We need to totally be clear about the fact that the most important function of the government is making sure that people are safe.
There are instances where people commit crimes that are so heinous that they should be locked up for a very long time Mass shooters, people who are murderers. Mm-hmm rapists. Like these crimes that are violent and terrorize our communities.
[00:12:50] Herbert Alexander: Like absolutely real violence.
[00:12:52] Javier Mabrey: Yes.
[00:12:52] Herbert Alexander: Not just titled violence.
[00:12:53] Javier Mabrey: Absolutely. Now within that can there be reforms to make sure that the system is more fair so that, there are people who are charged for life sentences because their cousin might say, "hey take me to the gas station", and they take their cousin to the gas station and maybe they didn't know their cousin was gonna
rob the place,
rob the place, or whatever.
And like if the cousin gets in a gunfight and the person driving the car. Had nothing to do with that they get charged for life in prison.That is absolutely a place where a terrible crime has occurred. And we should be looking at reform in sentencing.
[00:13:35] Vote for Community Safety
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[00:13:35] Javier Mabrey: We need to elect more leaders who are willing to have the courage to go to their communities and have honest conversations about community safety.
We have too many politicians who tell themselves they're gonna do the right thing when they get to the higher office.
We should be asking people who are running [00:14:00] for state legislative office, what are their feelings on mass incarceration? How do we deal with the racial disparities in the criminal legal system and what are their plans that are based in evidence to keep us safe?
I believe that we got to the point six or seven years ago where there was a lot of momentum in this direction
in the immediate wake of the George Floyd murder and protests Now that reform wasn't necessarily focused on specifically habitual offenders, but it was a moment in this country where elected officials who had power were thinking critically about the system that led to an injustice, like habitual offense sentencing.
We need to have, , conversations as a community so that leaders understand that this is important and we gotta make sure that we're trying to elect leaders who understand that this is important.
[00:15:01] How Is Incarceration Discussed in The Government?
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[00:15:01] Herbert Alexander: Is there ever a time where the topic comes up about incarcerated inmates and what we can do for them for people who've been in there long term?
[00:15:10] Javier Mabrey: Yeah, absolutely. We had a bill this year that dealt with release of people who are incarcerated, who have like terminal illnesses. And that was something we actually debated this year. Yeah. A couple years ago we had a bill dealing with clemency.
What I was talking about, like the power of the governor to commute sentences to pardon people. There was legislation clarifying the process here.
Another thing we talk about is there are prison population management measures that DOC can look at for people who were nonviolent offenders, have a pattern of, doing all the right things, checking all the right boxes. Mm-hmm don't show any inclination to cause danger in community.
There's options for early release in certain circumstances. I think we should [00:16:00] continue to have conversations about policies like these.
[00:16:03] Having Hope for Incarcerated Individuals
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[00:16:03] Herbert Alexander: So just being recently incarcerated, just being released a coup after a couple years, I still have a lot of friends in prison who are under habitual under long sentences. And just so we're clear, there's really good men in there who checked those boxes and have nothing, to look forward except just the satisfaction of being a good man walking through there. Do you have any hope for them in the future?
Absolutely. And I think that a big part of it is the work like you're doing with this programming. We are trying to have conversations here in the state, in the city, just as a society about the harms of mass incarceration. This is one of the venues where we can do that.
[00:16:50] Javier Mabrey: I also know that there are advocates like you all, all across the state. People that are volunteers with the ACLU, people that are working with the Colorado Freedom Fund and other civil rights based organizations who for years have been doing this work.
I believe that if we continue to have open and honest conversations about what's actually keeping us safe and being real about the fact that mass incarceration is doing nothing to keep us safe, we are not safer than countries that lock people up for less time or less frequently that we'll continue to see the ball move in the right direction.
[00:17:38] The Ebb and Flow of Progress
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[00:17:38] Javier Mabrey: Now sometimes you take two steps forward and it's one or two steps back. And I do think we're sort of in one of those moments right now where we got a president who's pushing a narrative that, we need to lock everybody up forever right? Mm-hmm. I mean, they're sending immigrants
to foreign gulags, with no due process. This is a very scary time for [00:18:00] the rule of law and for vulnerable communities, in this country. But as we continue to push back on that and to have real conversations about how, Donald Trump isn't respecting the rule of law, the Trump administration isn't respecting people's rights in court.
I believe that opens the door for more conversations. Well, okay. You were so concerned about people's rights in court when Donald Trump was doing things you didn't like. Let's talk about how this is also acting out in reality in your state. I think the conversation's gonna be a slow moving, but I definitely have hope for progress.
[00:18:40] What Does the Upcoming Legislative Session Hold?
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[00:18:40] Herbert Alexander: As my inside guy for what's going on in the legislation session coming up. Do you know or can give us maybe what's going on, what's what we have to look forward to?
[00:18:53] Javier Mabrey: I first just wanna address like some of the work we did last legislative session.
So last legislative session, I worked on a bill, it was house bill 1147 and it was to reform municipal court sentencing. So what we have happening in the state of Colorado right now is we have these state sentencing guidelines, right? And there are state sentencing guidelines that if you charge somebody in state court for a petty offense, the maximum sentence is 10 days. While petty theft is a petty offense trespassing is another one that fits within this. We see municipalities throughout the state of Colorado locking people up in their municipal courts under the municipal code for much longer than would be allowed under the state sentencing guidelines.
Last year I was proud to work on a piece of legislation that said the state sentencing guideline is the cap. So what did this look like in reality? What this meant was there were some places where people were like, stealing food or stealing like under $50. Worth of stuff and [00:20:00] being locked up for 300 days or trespassing and being locked up for 180 days.
This sort of reality means there's a patchwork judicial system where if you do one thing on the east side of Arapahoe Road or the west side of Arapahoe Road, then you might go to jail for 10 days or you might get a sentence for 300 days.
[00:20:25] Herbert Alexander: Depending on what side of the road you're
[00:20:26] Javier Mabrey: depending on what side of the road you're on, because you might be in a different city. I think that is a fundamental violation of equal application of the law. I brought a bill with Elizabeth Velasco, Mike Weissman, Judy Amabile, to change this, it passed.
We passed out both chambers. The governor vetoed it. We're gonna bring some changes from that piece of legislation back. There were some transparency things there were. Some clarifications about like when the right to an attorney triggers in these municipal courts. But the Supreme Court heard a case about if this was even legal from municipalities to do this under the state constitution.
Did we preempt municipalities from doing these longer sentences when we, as the legislator said, no, this is the cap. We're waiting on a court decision there. If the court tells us we need to make this change, then we'll bring back the sentencing piece in this legislation.
[00:21:23] Herbert Alexander: That's just for municipal court? It, it wouldn't go into like county courts or anything like that?
[00:21:28] Javier Mabrey: If you're getting charged under a state violation, you can't go to municipal court. So it's only
[00:21:34] Herbert Alexander: for city stuff, basically.
Yes, yes, yes. But it's the same stuff.
No matter what it is we're saying that the sentence in the state of Colorado is this. Okay. And it's the state sentencing guidelines.
Yeah. And that's it. Yep. Gotcha. That's right. it just brings up a memory of a guy who's, who was fighting a case. Yeah. And I think he was arrested on one side of Parker and now he's fighting , Hey, you guys didn't have jurisdiction over me.
So that's funny.
[00:21:59] Javier Mabrey: [00:22:00] Interesting. Interesting. another piece of legislation that, and this sort of goes in with some of the longer conversations we've been having today, but another thing that we're considering bringing this year might be later on is technical parole violations.
There are people that are maybe out because of the parole process and, maybe they didn't meet a paperwork deadline or, maybe they were drinking, but like the underlying thing that they did had nothing to do with drinking. why are we putting them back in jail when it's like legal for everybody else to drink?
I think we should be looking at if we're putting people back in DOC for violating their parole I think that should also be evidence-based.
[00:22:45] What Does Utopia Look Like (Where will The Billionaires Be?)
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[00:22:45] Herbert Alexander: I guess my final question I would like to ask you is what is your vision of a perfect future, utopian future, and how do we get there?
[00:22:59] Javier Mabrey: This is a big question but I have some thoughts since 1970 in the United States the vast majority of wealth that has been created has gone to the top 5%, 2%. 1% of this country. Workers, people who work for a living have not really seen an effective wage increase over time once you adjust for inflation. Meanwhile, everything else is becoming more expensive. Rents are becoming more expensive.
The biggest companies in the world are figuring out how to use technology to spy on us, to set individualized pricing, to price gouges even more. Landlords are using hidden algorithms to fix the price of rent. And I believe that we should be pushing for a society that values. Workers and everyday people more [00:24:00] than the 1%.
We live in the richest nation in the history of the world. We should be able to afford healthcare for everybody we can house. Everybody. Estimates indicate that it's $50 billion a year to end homelessness. That is change in the cushions of the pentagon's budget, which is close to a trillion dollars a year now.
I believe that we can provide free college to everybody. We have enough wealth in this country to make sure that everybody's needs are met. We should have guaranteed education, guaranteed healthcare, guaranteed housing, guaranteed food, and then after that, great. We live in a capitalist society. Make a better phone, make a better computer sure. But we need to push for a society where everybody's needs are met and not one, like where we live now, where there are a hundred billionaires in Aspen and we can't even fund our schools in the state of Colorado. So we gotta deal with wealth inequality in this country and fight to make sure that everybody has housing, healthcare, and education.
I believe that what happens over the next few years will dictate the future of this country for decades. I think that the reason why Donald Trump is the president right now is that too many people in this country had gone for too long without seeing their lives improved.
Like for example, my generation is the first generation since World War 2 to be worse off than my parents' generation. We can't afford houses, we're straddled with student loan debt. Everybody's living paycheck to paycheck. If the electorate can make clear to politicians on both sides of the aisle that they are sick of them serving the oligarchs and want them to serve working people.
If working people [00:26:00] can build a coalition that overcomes the racism that the president of the United States is trying to put out there, right? The president of the United States is trying to split us along racial lines, demonizing immigrants, so that we're blaming our problems on immigrants if we realize that all of us are suffering because the wealthy at the top.
I don't mean business owners here in Colorado. I seriously mean the billionaires. The billionaires are breaking this country. And if we can build a coalition that comes together and says we want to build a better future. For everybody. Then yeah, I think we can get there. I think there's energy for change and right now that was channeled into destructive change under Trump.
And I think if we have leaders who can offer a positive vision then yeah, I think we can get there.
[00:28:00]
[00:28:05] Ryan Conarro: