Darrell Hall - Why Don't Pastors Understand My Generation?

Show Notes

Darrell Hall - Why don't pastors understand my generation? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert: Hello. Welcome to the Why God Why podcast. My name is Peter Englert. I am one of the co-hosts of this show. We have a guest producer, her name's Perrin. She's one of our interns and we also have a guest co-host. They are both illustrious and remarkable. Aaron McGinnis, how are you?

Aaron McGinnis: Oh, good to be here, Peter. Yes. I'm excited to talk today. I'm really passionate about what Darryl's written about and talked about. So, this should be a really good one. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Peter Englert: Well, we will be introducing our guest in the moment. Aaron McGinnis is our student ministry leader. The question we have is why don't pastors understand my generation? And we are here with Darrell Hall, who is the author of this book. Your first time hosting and you put the book up as a display. That's a boss move right there.

Aaron McGinnis: Well I was just reading it and it's so beautiful. I'm sure Darrell designed it himself. So, I had to put that up there.

Peter Englert: Well, hey. Why don't you kick us off and get us started? Go ahead, Aaron.

Aaron McGinnis: Yeah. So, Darrell is a campus pastor at the Elizabeth Baptist Church in Conyers. Is that right? Conyers, Georgia?

Darrell Hall: That's correct.

Aaron McGinnis: There we go. Got it. Where he regularly preaches. He teaches across five generations, which we're going to hear a lot about today. He recently wrote a book, Speaking Across Generations. So, the focus of our episode, we're going to dive into that. And before we get deep into the intergenerational discipleship and those types of talks, Darrell, would you just share a little bit about your story?

Darrell Hall: Yeah. First of all, thank you for having me, Peter and Aaron. I'm so glad to be able to meet you and be a part of your first-time hosting in this space. And so, I'm glad to be here.

Darrell Hall: A little bit about me. I'm born and raised in the Metro Atlanta area. I am a son of my city and a son of my church, if I could use those metaphors to describe myself in the sense that I was raised in the inner city of Atlanta, educated in our public school system and live pretty much in Atlanta proper my entire childhood and most of my adulthood. The church that I'm a part of now, which I get a chance to serve as one of the campus pastors for a five campus, a multisite church is the church I was born and raised in.

Darrell Hall: So, I'm a prenatal member of this church. I accepted the Lord and Jesus at this church as a child, was baptized there and was discipled through VBS and Sunday school and children's choir and youth usher board. And I've been able since accepting my call to preach, to also contribute on the ministerial side as pulpit assistant to my senior pastor, which was one of my many honors as a team preacher, believe it or not, also as a young adult pastor and youth pastor, and now pastor of one of our campuses. I've been married for 15 years and I met my wife in my church as well. So, been married for 15 years. We have three boys and we reside, as I say before, in the Metro Atlanta area.

Peter Englert: Before we get all too serious, I just got to check. Are you full into Atlanta sports or do you have different allegiances?

Darrell Hall: Oh, I am full baptism by fire into all Atlanta sports teams. My favorite teams in any league or sport that I watch is Atlanta or Atlanta based. So, that means, Atlanta Dream are my favorite WNBA team. The Hawks are my favorite NBA team. The Braves, the world series champion Braves are my favorite MLB team, Georgia Bulldogs are my favorite college football team.

Peter Englert: The only thing I'm just going to press that you left out the Falcons. Are the Falcons in there?

Darrell Hall: Oh, and my favorite NFL team. I'm grief stricken, Peter. I am in counseling regularly and tarrying before the Lord on behalf of the Falcons. So, I think my grief calls me to forget my beloved dirty birds. Yes. I'm a Falcons fan.

Peter Englert: Well, you're in good company because you're in Buffalo Bills country and we will not name that team, but anyways, let's-

Aaron McGinnis: Let's just say we had a whole sermon series on lamentations after the class.

Darrell Hall: Okay. All right. You all understand?

Peter Englert: Yeah.

Darrell Hall: Y'all are looking good though. Y'all stock is rising and, as a avid fantasy football coach and participant, I know that you guys got a few studs on your team, too.

Peter Englert: Hey, that's what we love to hear. You come for the theology, get free fantasy advice. That's what we're talking about. Let me kind of start here before we jump in and kind of hear a little bit more of your story, our culture seems to play up the generational differences. I'd say positively and negatively everything from stereotypes to just a phraseology, just to the conflict. And I guess for someone that wrote a book about kind of sending the message of Jesus to generations, how do you manage that tension of, are we overdoing it? Are we underdoing it? What are some of your thoughts on that?

Darrell Hall: That's a great question. My first inkling is that we're overdoing it in the sense that we overdo everything. And when I hear these private spats or one generation taking a shot at another generation or people throwing out lingo or sociological terminology that they don't really know the accuracy of it, like calling people in the children's ministry millennials.

Darrell Hall: When I hear that kind stuff tossed back and forth as slights towards generational cohorts that are not the one that the speaker or whoever's talking is within, and sometimes I think we overdo it. I think we can definitely cause differences where God meant for diversity. And I think we can make enemies of people that we should be trying to have a rich fellowship with. And we do it in every demographic area or subset that divides our nation, whether that's political, racial, socioeconomic, gender. These differences are real and they matter in the fabric of humanity. And I think God allows or created these differences for diversity, but we use them and we overuse them to create division. So, in that sense, I think we do the same thing generationally. I think we overdo it.

Darrell Hall: Then here's the flip side. I think we overdo the criticism and I think we underdo the potential for a beautiful bouquet of intergenerational beauty. I think we underdo that part. I think it's easier to step on another generational group and overdo some of the minute differences than it is to subject oneself to the study of what makes that generation tick and be willing to adjust one's preferences, to give honor to brothers and sisters of their generation. So, I think we underdo in the sense of the opportunity that is ours to do something great in the Lord's church.

Aaron McGinnis: Yeah. No, I love what you say, the beautiful bouquet. And I feel like I've been hearing that more and more, maybe not that exact terminology, but this idea of how can we get back to one church? How can we get back to generations discipling one another? And I was talking with Darrell, Pete, right before this and the beauty of, one, growing up in the same church and being at that church. And it's a church your grandmother started going to. So, we're talking decades of investment and just the generational discipleship that's happening there is beautiful.

Aaron McGinnis: And when we look at culture right now, I'm sure you'd agree. We use those generations as ammunition to blame for what's wrong. And I think sometimes that can seep into the church, too, where we use those generational differences as the main cause of what's wrong with this church. "And that's why I'm going to take my group here and you take your group over there," and it's just tough to see. But I'm super glad we have people like you analyzing this stuff and working for a better future. And I'm curious. As you've kind of done this research that we haven't done. I was looking through your book. So many great graphs. If you're an Excel user, you'd just be living life reading Darrell's book. As you've researched this generation, how have you personally changed and grown in the process?

Darrell Hall: Oh, man! What a great question? I think that, so what has now become a book that I'm amazed that God let me write started as just an inkling of an idea, just like a, "Hmm. I wonder," kind of a hunch-type thing. And it started as a project for my dissertation for my doctoral degree in seminary.

Darrell Hall: Once I finished the academic portion, that's only part of, that's not even the full gamut. That's maybe 30% of what became the book. There was more research on the back end I was able to go back and do, in addition to that, with my friends at Barna, and what I discovered through researching the generations or how it shaped me is I think it gave me even more of a compassionate heart than I presumed I'd already had.

Darrell Hall: I thought I was loving towards people who are different generations and different life stages and I thought I was perceptive to their unique needs, but having researched it and understood that, for example, that baby boomers are in this new life stage called second adulthood. And reading through that and understanding the complexity of it, fears involved for that generation in that life stage, I think it deepened my heart of compassion for each and showed me that, though I'm starting at what it means to speak to or communicate with these generations, that is so much more churches could be doing to meet the static generational groups in their dynamic life stage progressions.

Darrell Hall: So, boomers are always boomers, but they haven't always been in second adulthood and senior adulthood. So, what does it mean to be a static group going through a dynamic experience from a generational standpoint?

Darrell Hall: And just, it made me deeply compassionate and it made me less defensive as a millennial because oftentimes my generation is much maligned and I didn't go into the book hoping to defend us, but as I got into the research, I realized my generation didn't need defending. My generation needed to be understood within its sociological and cultural context so it could be appropriately loved and so that the gospel as a real solution could be adequately contextualized. And it wasn't just for millennials. It was for every generation. It really gave me a heart of compassion that I thought I already had but you can't have until you go deeper on some stuff.

Aaron McGinnis: Yeah. There's two things I hear you saying that I absolutely love. One is just that biblical idea to know is to love. And it seems like, as you did, research on these groups that society doesn't help us interact with. It likes to put us into little groups. And once you did research and got to know these the stats on these people, maybe even talked with these people, they turned from a statistic or that generation that we blame into humans who are all going through things. And the more you knew about them, the more you grew in love and compassion for them. So, one of the things you probably talk about is, yeah, getting to know people in those demographics, getting to understand and try to figure out more about them will grow you in compassion and make you want to have those connections and do intergenerational ministry, which is amazing.

Aaron McGinnis: And then the second thing I heard you say is that it was really interesting to me, these static groups that are in dynamic changes or moving dynamically through life. And it makes me think about how can we, as a church, do even transitions better, recognizing that these parents of high schoolers in my sense might be empty nesters soon. Their life's going to radically change. These young adults who don't have kids are now married. Now they're having children. Their life's going to radically change. And sometimes we, as the church, don't even think about the movement of it. We only think about the static groups. So, yeah, that might be an area that we can come together and think harder and harder about to love our congregation and our generations.

Darrell Hall: Yeah. If I could, Aaron, to that last point, I think that's great insight by you and that's definitely what I was trying to communicate. I definitely think we're in sync on that piece. My hope was I added a tool into the appendices that is a graph that I advocate for speakers or ministry leaders to update once a year and to keep somewhere visible wherever you do your ministry work or your ministry planning or your sermonic writing, because it keeps it, to your point, in our face.

Darrell Hall: And that graph is just an example, is something that had in Robinson advocated in Preaching Magazine that I took and adapted to add the generational static. It's static on one side, boomers are always boomers, but it's dynamic on the other side. They won't always be in these life stages that they're currently in. But even to your point of experiences, that parallel those stages, like being an empty nester, being a first time homeowner, being a college graduate now out in the job market. I think if we keep this complex experience of the people we address before us somewhere, I think it will help us as we shape the way we try to reach them.

Peter Englert: I love where this conversation's going. In some ways I feel like a bystander to you and Aaron, and that's a lot of fun, which is great. But just to help our listeners, because again, like we said, you've done most of these podcasts to leaders and I think it's kind of fun to talk to actual listeners and kind of people in congregation.

Peter Englert: So, one of the hallmarks of why I would tell anybody to read your book that's even not a pastor or speaker is you go through the gospel message for each generation. And if I could just be so bold to ask, I don't want you to give too much away, but can you just kind of explain how you're trying to contextualize the gospel for each generation, even help our listeners understand the complexity of sharing this message that doesn't change, but how do you contextualize it? So, why don't you walk us through each generation?

Darrell Hall: Okay. Yeah. I'll be glad to, and you are right, Peter. Most of the time I am addressing vocational ministers, but in this scenario I think there is a significant opportunity to speak directly to the heart of people who may not be, quote, unquote, "Leaders in the church," or have some authority or title. What's interesting about your question is right before I answer it, I've been getting as much, if not more feedback from non-preachers who, via email, social media, inbox have informed me that reading the book helped them reconcile family relationships. And many of them are from Xer and boomer parents who needed to reconcile with a millennial adult child. And I'm getting this feedback that the way that I try, to use your term, contextualize the gospel to the language or that generation better help the readers understand where them and someone they deeply love was missing, that it wasn't per se in the right and wrong of the conversation as much as it was in the understanding of one another's linguistic preference, how one communicates.

Darrell Hall: And so, I've been getting a lot of from just normal people who are not preachers. And so, I thank God for using the book in that way. What I try do in each chapter that is [inaudible] is to give those sociological factors in America, meaning political factors, technology realities, how the previous generation may have shaped them, economic experiences. I tried to give that historic context in American history as key to shaping the way these generations adopted communication styles and what I describe as their coming of age years.

Darrell Hall: And so, my argument is that most generations are shaped and static in their value system communication style by the time they're in their early 20s, based on certain factors that would come and during their time were coming of age. And so, from that, I deduce that each generation then is its own people group. And as its own people group, it has a culture, a language that is distinct and other than any other generation.

Darrell Hall: And so, though boomers may get older, Xers are getting older, millennials are now entering adulthood and in adulthood we have been greatly shaped by how technology, politics, economics, family factors shaped us during our coming of age years. And so, from that language and culture is shaped for each generation. And then, I think the hard part was just trying to figure out how do I give a name to each language and show how it stacks up against the other generation.

Darrell Hall: So, I'll just give a couple examples. For the elder generation, the silent generation born in 1945 and before, I would describe their language as propositional, meaning that they were shaped through some of the worst economic times, through the Great Depression and wars, and also through hearing one-way communication via radio, some of the most pivotal messages that affected their way of life as Americans came through one-way radio. Their parents lived in simpler times in the sense of their authoritarian or autocratic type of leadership.

Darrell Hall: And so, this preference for one way, direct, authoritarian communication that doesn't really shift to the right or the left, right on the nose, make a claim. That's the way I was trying to describe their language. And the example I gave was how do we preach John 3: 16 through that lens? I think if I wanted to connect with people born in '45 and before, I would preach John 3:16 right on the nose. "Love the Lord Jesus, God sent Jesus, repent of your sins, or die and go to hell, but God didn't want you to go to hell because God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world. Can I get a witness in here? God is good, isn't he?" Right.

Darrell Hall: Very direct. One way, propositional. I was shocked to discover that generation also prefers some practical application, but my point is they don't need a lot of tease as it relates to the point that you're preaching from the text. And so, when you start to move from silent towards now to youngest Generation Z in between what you have is a continuum away from propositional towards more of a dialogical/relational communication. And I just try to track how boomers moved a step away. Boomers appreciate, understand, and can fluently converse in proposition language because they were shaped by parents and preachers and teachers and leaders from their generation, but in their moving away from, they moved towards more of a skeptical, hmm, questioning. Boomers push the limit. Boomers lived on the edge. Boomers bucked societal norms. Boomers left rural upbringings. Boomers built major cities and corporations and the world retrofitted itself around baby boomers.

Darrell Hall: And as a result, they tested the norms, even though they appreciated them and understood them. So, I try to use that realistic sociological experience to describe how they moved away from. So, with boomers. I would put a little bit more tease in it. I would use something like C. S. Lewis's trilemma of Christ. Is he liar, lunatic, or Lord? If I was preaching in a room full of boomers and I want preach the gospel, I'm bringing C.S. Lewis to the table. Which is he? Is he liar, lunatic, or Lord? And we would spend some time. He could have lied when he such and such. How can a 30 year old claim to be before the father of the Jewish faith and Hebrew people. Was he a lunatic? What you mean you destroyed his template and then, three days out, build it. You know how long it took Solomon to build his temple? Or was he Lord? Was he really who he said he was? And there's a crescendo, there's a consummation, so to speak, that boomers appreciate with some tease.

Darrell Hall: Then, we move to Xers. Xers, I think is really where the hinge between. And it's not just because they happen to be hinged generationally, but maybe it is. Xers is on a smaller generation wedged between the two largest. Xers are where intellect really became unnecessary in communication because Xers are where they use intellect to self-protect. Xers use their brains to guard their hearts because their hearts were broken by so many institutions that they were told to trust in. And so, you got the increase of postsecondary education. You have the internet becoming the thing, the worldwide web and their ability to seek out knowledge for self as defense against what they were sold is a bill of goods, whether it was religious, political, family. Xers were let down in many ways and also skipped over if we think about how marketers in major cities have reshaped themselves from attracting boomers to now on millennials, Xers didn't get a lot of time in the limelight.

Darrell Hall: And so, as a result of that, Xers got a chip on their sleeve/intellect that they use to protect their heart/inherent distrust, "Because my mom and my daddy got divorced when I was three years old, five years old. I watched my daddy leave and never come back." Regardless of race or where you live in this nation, this concept of latchkey kids, independent, really shape the Xer generation.

Darrell Hall: And so, preachers have to stimulate intellect, Xers refuse to leave their brains in the car when they come into church. That's not to say silent and boomers are stupid or non-intellectual. What it is to say is that Xers demanded more. It's a higher priority that you be intellectually stimulating, historically accurate with extra biblical sourcing, proof, argue, prognosticate, litigate, all these defense terms. Apologize in the sense of being an apologist. All of these defense terms of the gospel really land on where the Xers are.

Darrell Hall: And then my group, millennial group, we remain intellectual, except we add this interesting dynamic that communication must be too way. We will be heard. Dialogue is necessary whereas, for the older generations, they'll appreciate dialogue, but they don't need it from their preachers. But millennials, if you want to reach us, you have to sound like a listener. You can't preach like an authoritative, autocratic man of God based on whatever rank or ordination or woman of God, you have to communicate like a listener and it has to be palpable. It can't be faked and you have to be authentic and less mystical.

Darrell Hall: If you think about it, some of the older generations, the more spiritually authoritative you were, the better. They didn't want to know much about their preachers. They just want to know, "Do you preach the bible good?" Millennials are different. They could care about how good you preach the bible. "Is your life accessible? Can I periscope into your daily life? Do you go live on social media? What do you like when you are not preaching? Is there a difference between personas of Darrow and Dr. Hall?" And wherever that gap exists is where you'll lose my trust. And so, dialogue, you have to sound like a listener.

Darrell Hall: So, in preaching the gospel in a dialogical way, I have to affirm intellectual otherness and I even have to do something most preachers in previous generations may not have been as comfortable with doing. When you are making a sermon, so I'm so pretending like I'm in a workshop right now, building my sermon. There are a lot of things. I'm trying to give you an example. Once the sermon is finished as a product, most generations would just take this. "Here's my sermon." Millennials want to know, "What did you leave out? What buttons did you leave out? What was left on the cutting room floor? Why?" Not just, "Here's the finished product of my proposition and biblical principle, but here's how I wrestled to even arrive at."

Darrell Hall: Hey, y'all. If I'm preaching the gospel to a room for the millennials. Yeah. I'm degreed, I'm ordained, I have this religious responsibility as preacher, but they want to know where I struggle to believe this, too. And not in a way that I'm pandering, but in a way that I'm authentic, that yeah, even with a doctorate degree and 15 years of theological training, I still struggle at times to accept the biblical account of this woman caught in an act of adultery.

Darrell Hall: So, I'm just giving an example. So, dialogue, you have to like a listener and affirm the otherness of their point of view to earn as an exchange, I affirm to earn an audience to give God's point of view on the subject matter or the biblical narrative's point of view. So, that's the short of it. I can go on and on but I don't want to belabor the point.

Peter Englert: Can you give Generation Z?

Darrell Hall: Yeah. Okay. And Gen Z is, again, and I include this continuum in the appendices of the book. We're moving from proposition towards dialogical and then I would describe Gen Z as relational, meaning, and I wrestled with this. I'm going to just be honest with you all. In the research when we did it, Gen Z only had adults from 19 to 22. So, the bulk of Gen Z was still children. And we couldn't factor in that adjustment and point of view from childhood to adulthood.

Darrell Hall: So, I struggled to clarify if their relational leaning was primarily because they were children and teens at the time, or because that was their generational thumbprint, would this remain static with them and my friends at Barna, they believe that the relational language or nature of Gen Zers will remain static as they grow older.

Darrell Hall: So yeah, Gen Zers are more relational, meaning they have to trust you before they'll listen to you and it's less intellectual and is more transparent. And a part of the breakdown between older and experienced people and ministers and the Gen Z group that we're trying to reach is that none of the credentials that matter in the older generation translate, if you're not transparent, meaning transparency, you can't preach transparent. You can only be transparent. It's either you is or you isn't regardless of credential, regardless of experience. Are you translucent? Are you transparent? Can I see through you in the sense that you are open? Are you warm? Are you approachable? Are you trustworthy? Are you consistent?

Darrell Hall: And that's where it gets a little tricky, because now it's moving out rhetorical skills and hacks and rhetorical approaches. Now, it's moving to personhood, who I am as a person and Gen Z is going to require more of your personhood than Xers will. Xers just want to know, can you intellectually prove, defend, consider, argue. And I may perhaps might believe. Zers want to know, are you authentic and real and can I trust you and will you be here next week, the week after? Are you a dependable? And I mean, I'm saying that particularly because I know Aaron is in youth ministry and I've spent five years there as well. There's a trust factor that comes with dependability. And those are reciprocal. As you are dependable, you will be trusted. And as you are trusted, you will be depended upon. So, the relational nature of Gen Z is something that can't be faked. It can't be hacked. It challenges the preacher or person in any capacity to really be who they present themselves to be.

Aaron McGinnis: Yeah. I mean, everything you say resonates so much with me. You know what? Practically how this played out, in one talk with my students was we we're talking about vaping. And reading your book, if I was talking to the silent generation, I just, bam, bam, bam. "This is what the bible says. These are the truths. This is why you need to stay away from any unwholesome, any," boom, boom, boom.

Peter Englert: Your body's a temple. Don't do it.

Aaron McGinnis: Your body's a temple. Don't do it.

Darrell Hall: Praise the Lord.

Aaron McGinnis: As I go down the ladder. Right? You get the claps. And then as you go down the ladder, like, "This is the study. This is why it's bad for you. This proves that this is a bad way of life." And I remember preparing that for the kids and I'm like, "Man, none of this is going to hit them at all." So, what I ended up doing and I got feedback that it was effective was I personally, as Aaron McGinnis processed through how I would make the decision. And I did the pros, the cons, the what I called the good, bad, the biblical.

Aaron McGinnis: And then I came to my own conclusion and was like, "You don't have to come to that conclusion, but this is how I came to that conclusion. You go ahead and make choices for yourself." And hoping that the relational equity we've built over the years from talking with them makes them latch on and be like, "You know what? I'm going to try to think about this the way that person thinks about it," or, when I ... There's just so many decisions youth ministers have to make.

Aaron McGinnis: For example, I film in my house and I do house tours for the kids and I show them my cats and I do prayer requests for all of them and talk about my grandma's illness in order to build relational equity, which you don't quite get from a stage where it feels like there's a barrier, but with a silent generation, man, the stage is where the truth comes from. So, it's really interesting how it plays out on the practical level for these kids and for me to be in and out of that is really, really fascinating. Yeah. I don't know. I just was resonating so much with what you were saying.

Darrell Hall: Man, that is so cool. That is so cool. Just from your description, man, you nailed it. And I know that God is pleased, man, and blessing your faithfulness and your sensitivity to their unique needs. And I do believe that the relational equity that you're building, you're giving them the frame of mind to think through, not just the answer, even if it's a biblical answer is here's how I would process it as a person. So, man, that's dope. Thank you for sharing that.

Aaron McGinnis: Yeah. Well, and thank you for writing things that put language to that as well so we can talk and process through that.

Darrell Hall: Yeah.

Peter Englert: Well, one of the things that I'm hearing and I don't want to pander to myself as a pastor or all of it. So, we had a guest on named J. R. Briggs. And we talked about the question why are church leaders so messed up? I think you're even painting a picture of, there's a ton of churches and I've met every generation from Gen Z to the elders. I always want to say traditionalist, but it's the elders and-

Darrell Hall: Either one. Yeah.

Peter Englert: Yeah. So, you're painting a picture of actually how complicated it is to do intergenerational relationships. And what J. R. Briggs said was, he's like, "Your pastor's human." And I think what you're even saying to the non speakers, and this is why you're getting the positive feedback, oh, there's a lot of grace there. I'm going to offend someone when I preach through a throwaway line or something like that. And I need to hear when a different generation says that didn't resonate with me, but on the other hand, it's got to be like, they're coming from a different generation. That's not a dealbreaker for that. I think what I hear you saying is there's a ton more grace in these conversations that we need to have.

Darrell Hall: I mean, yes and yes, because I think earlier you asked the question, Peter, how has this research shaped me? I can't remember if it was you or Aaron, but when I said that it deepened my compassion, I think the deeper one's compassion, the more grace you're positioned to give. You're right.

Darrell Hall: What it says is, okay, let's, instead of talking about me as Dr. Hall or what have you as preacher, let's talk about me, Darrell and my dad. Big Darrell. I'm Little Darrell. My dad had me when he was 19 years old. My dad is a Gen Xer. I am a millennial and I'm 35. My dad is 50 whatever 35 plus 19 is. He's 54. Me and my dad have had disagreements and still do not agree on some areas in life, whether that's political, relational, we may just have distinct differences, but because I understand how my dad was shaped, I give grace to him in listening to him explain his point of view, unsolicited advice, unsolicited advice he'll give me.

Darrell Hall: And I recall me and my dad having a disagreement about something and it came to a head and I was more than excited to prove to him how different I was for my siblings, though he must think he's talking to one of my siblings. He going to learn today he's talking to ... And I can recall after we kind of calmed down from it, asked his advice about how to better disagree with him. And he said to me, "Son, just always be open to me being able to speak and give unsolicited advice even if you don't accept it, be open to at least me giving it to you." And when we reconcile after that spat and that disagreement, I realized then the grace we both have to give each other at how we've been shaped.

Darrell Hall: And that is so many lenses, Peter, racial lenses, socioeconomic lenses, gender lenses, regional, where region of this country, where my hope in writing this book was just to bring in another lens that's equally as viable and maybe more viable that we never talk about how generations shape the way a person thinks, which gives me grace for what I don't understand or grace for where I may disagree. And I mean, not in the sense of right or wrong, in the sense of preference is what I'm getting at. That if they prefer a different approach that it gives me grace because I don't understand, they've been shaped in a way that they can't unshaped myself. And it's amoral. I mean, we're not talking about immoral things. We're talking about things that are amoral, neither good nor bad. This is perspective. This is point of view. It's just preference.

Darrell Hall: It's not let's say the Lord and thou shall not. It is just preferential things. And I think that is what we give grace to each other for. And when we don't, that is what creates generational stratification and splits in the church and, "I'm going to take my group and you keep your group," when it then boil down to, "Wait. Are we disagreeing about the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the bodily resurrection? What are we disagreeing about? Music preference? What are we disagreeing about? Time of service on Sunday? What are we disagreeing about? Can the preacher wear skinny jeans or should the preacher wear a full suit every week?" There's a lack of grace in those differences. I kind of answered your question and added something to it, but I hope I answered it.

Peter Englert: No, I think you did. And you know, you've brought up a couple times diversity and just racial issues. And I guess I would think it would be unfortunate for us not to ask you this question. Aaron and I are two white guys. You're a Black person of color. How did you process generational differences differently than maybe the way Aaron and I or some of our listeners? I'd just be curious of how you process that because now we're adding another lens to the conversation. I just want to hear from you.

Darrell Hall: Yeah. Man, that is a great question and I appreciate you asking it. So, my work was greatly inspired by my friend Haydn Shaw, who wrote my forward. Hayden is a white guy as well, lives in the Midwest. He's a boomer, I believe. And I was greatly inspired by one of his books, Generational IQ. And he and I disagree on some things from a practical standpoint of how to apply this in the church. But speaking specifically racial, through the racial lens, when I wrote this work, what I tried to do was not just give the general factors in American history that affected all Americans, but in each of the generational chapters, I tried to speak specifically to how African Americans were uniquely shaped in that generation and also women. So, I looked at a racial and a gender minority and tried to give some specific sociological factors to how millennial Blacks or millennial women were shaped during that coming of age time, because I felt quite frankly the responsibility to do so, that being a man of color from the South and having this tremendous opportunity to partner with Barna Group and published by IVP to not just leave it racially sterile.

Darrell Hall: And I also was writing a book during the pandemic where a lot of racial tension was just spewing because of the George Floyd case and Ahmaud Arbery here in Georgia. And so, I was writing a book during the early part of the pandemic 2020. And so, I just felt like I would be less of a steward, a poor steward to not kind of address those and try to give some insight into them. That's because I think sometimes we can assume that American history and African American history are one and the same when the reality is it isn't. It is and then it isn't. And we, as Black folk, have developed this flexibility that Jared Alcántara, he writes a book about a great Black preacher and he talks about how he use protean reflexive. I had never heard of the term before. Protean reflexivity and how this Black preacher was able to preach in Black and white settings in the early 90s and this protean reflexivity, or this ability to be in both worlds almost seamlessly. This adaptability is a better word to describe it.

Darrell Hall: I just thought it was so amazing how he was talking about Gardner C. Taylor. I thought it was so amazing how Gardner C. Taylor personified it as a preacher, what Black people do in everyday life. We live in both worlds and we are able to engage in both because we have to. We have to in order to be productive members of society. So, I try to speak to that and how each generation was uniquely shaped, how women in that generation and Black folk in that generation were uniquely shaped, not because the general experience of Xers wasn't enough, but to add that nuance just for deeper understanding, and my hope for deeper compassion. Did I answer your question, Peter?

Peter Englert: No. You totally did. What's a specific example of, again, processing through the last question, you can pick any generation just to help our listeners understand. And I guess I'll kind of pitch this out there. I've heard from some African Americans, Black people of color that sometimes the younger generation is a little bit more pushing towards change and the older generation is kind of a little bit more flexible. And again, that's not general, that's just what I've heard, but I guess I'd be more curious on the personal side of you not at large, but just when you think about maybe the way you relate to ... You talked about your dad, but also the way you relate to Gen Z, help our listeners understand how those generational differences might play out in a practical sense in your life, especially in terms of being a person of color.

Darrell Hall: Oh, man. That is a great question. What I would say is ... So, let's just take ... I think I can use my family in this scenario, my dad and me and my siblings. We have a family group chat. And when we have certain political or religious conversations, we collectively, the millennials in the group are either we just let him. We let my dad be dad because he going to state his point of view or give it, or we push back in ways that could be a little uncomfortable if not discussed.

Darrell Hall: And so, this happens ... When I say political, I mean, how do we, as Black people, respond to what we still see happening as relates to police brutality, voter suppression, or these various issues that we interpret through the lens of racism. And the older generation will have one way of responding to it and the younger generation would say, "No. We need to do this and do that. And it's not about just the bible and the gospel, and now we're all one. We need to," blah, blah and boom, boom. I do think, even in my own world, in my own life, I see more of a fire. And what I see the older generation is more of a savvy. It's a savvy. It's not a lack of fire. It's the presence of wisdom of how they navigate. And what I see in the younger generation as we want to respond is I see a fire, an anger, what I hope is a righteous indignation, but a fire, a righteous indignation, this motion to action. And in the older generation, I see a savvy, a more of a knowledge of how to navigate, more of a here's how we could strategically do it.

Darrell Hall: And, at times, the younger generation could think the older generation has lost it. "What happened to the marching and this and all this stuff we read? Y'all are kind of over the hill." And the older generation at times with the younger generation is as on the edge of being lost so to speak, which I think cyclically, every older generation accuses the younger generation of being too far gone and maybe lost. And if they don't stop, it could be too late, over the hill type of thing.

Darrell Hall: So, I see that in my own family, but I think in a greater Black community, we see that as well, which is why, if you notice during the pandemic, much of the marching and rhetoric and political action was not with church leaders at the forefront. Whereas the civil rights movement did have church leaders at the forefront. That is a big thing in the Black community where the Black church has been this, not just safe haven, this embassy, this racial embassy, this headquarters of organization and movement where the younger generation now is saying, "No, y'all older Blacks. Y'all keep going to church, but we going to handle this our way," more of a fire, more of an action, more of a doing without necessarily wanting to have a minister or the gospel or the Black church at the forefront of that. So, its playing itself or has even in the way respond as Black people to what is going on in our nation, and the generations are responding differently.

Aaron McGinnis: Wow. Yeah. That's really good. I mean, being a millennial, I've heard that, too. I like the fire analogy or I was even thinking of, I don't know, driving a sports car or something where the younger generation's like, "There is something wrong. Pedal to the metal. I don't care how many turns there are. I'm going to knock over some barriers, but I'm going to do something. I'm going to try to slide around the side, but I'm going to put the pedal to the metal. We are going for it." And the older generation might be like, "You know, we did that in the past and it wasn't the most effective. I'm going to slow down on these curves and I'm going to take a more angled approach." And that could be seen as taking no action or being slow and unchanging when maybe it is wise.

Aaron McGinnis: And even so, even the older generations could maybe a better view would be to look at the younger generations and take them under their wing and say, "That fire is good. It's coming from a great place. Let's harness it, let's put it towards social change and let's go for it." And instead of the two appreciating both approaches, we're writing and what we're seeing is that they're just hating and separating and saying, "One is bad. One is good," and moving forward with no unity, which is cool.

Aaron McGinnis: I do have another question for you. And that's a very practical question and it is this. As Christians, we look to him as the example. How do you think Jesus would engage generations differently than we do? And what are some practical tips to become more like Jesus in the way that we approach generations than generational gaps?

Darrell Hall: That is a great question. Okay. So, one of the awesome things about being a believer is we have to guess less about how our deity would respond in real time. I mean, we still have to do the theological work, which is you just asked me a theological question, take what you know about Christ from the gospels and what you know about the context we live in. And could you make some practical connections? The beauty is that we have to less guessing, praise God for the incarnation and for him being God with us.

Darrell Hall: What I think Jesus would do differently is first of all, I think Jesus would be more compassionate to ... I'm trying to figure out how to say this. I'm going to say it this way and hope that I'm connected across generations. Jesus would be more compassionate to the varying standards each cohort needed to believe. I don't think Jesus would play one generation against another if one generation just has a different expectation to help their belief. And I don't think this is just me. I don't think it's just a hunch. When you look at the end of John, the post-resurrection narratives, the disciples are in an upper room, the door close. Jesus appears in the room and the disciples are amazed. Well, that first upper room appearance, all the disciples weren't there. Thomas is one of those disciples. Now, Thomas, we know is a twin. Thomas we also accused of being this doubter and Thomas gets a bad rap for his unbelief. The next time they're gathered in this upper room, similar to the first time. The doors are closed. Jesus appears in the room in bodily form.

Darrell Hall: But, now, between these two appearances, they go tell Thomas, "We saw Jesus." And Thomas says, "I won't believe unless I put my finger in his hands and my finger in his side." The next time they gather, Jesus appears. Thomas is present. Jesus goes straight to Thomas. It says, "Thomas, here is the proof you need. See my hands. Here is the proof you asked for. See my side. Do you believe now?" "Oh my Lord and my God. Oh, you believe because you've seen. Blessed are those who believe without seeing."

Darrell Hall: Before Jesus chastened him for needing to see to believe, Jesus offered the proof he asked for to believe. Jesus was not bent out of shape about, "Okay. If I've gone this far to convince you of God's love, I'll take another step further."

Darrell Hall: Now, to me, that's the Lord's compassion, a varying standard for belief. Here's what's interesting, though. What Thomas was asking for was only what the other disciples had already experienced. He just needed it in his time. And through his experience. The other disciples had already seen him appear in his room, already seen his nail-marked hands and his spear in his side. They had already seen this and they were convinced. So, them being convinced and him not being convinced is not a demerit of him. It is to say he needed an experience they had already got.

Darrell Hall: So, when we think about how the generations relate to our faith in Christ, I think Jesus will be more compassionate with the generations who still need to see something before they believe instead of comparing them to the generations who've already seen enough to know. The silent traditional generation, they watch God keep them through the Great Depression. Why wouldn't they believe? You know how they love propositional communication because they are convinced. They know the Lord is good, but now we've had a global pandemic. We are heading into, I think, a recession now. So, now Gen Z will get to see, "Oh, that the same guy who could be depended upon 110 years ago, it's the same God who we'll be dependent upon now." So, I think Jesus would be more compassionate to the varying standards each generation would have before they place their faith. And he would be willing to adjust, within reason, within reason.

Darrell Hall: I think another thing that Jesus would do is I think Jesus would keep, and obviously we saw him do this. He was a master of keeping truth and grace in perfect tension. I still don't know how he did it. It was one of those things we marvel at. How did he know to call the Pharisees a brood of vipers, "You snakes!" But, then to turn to a woman calling adultery and say, "All right, I don't condemn you, but don't you do it again." He then it turned to a Syrophoenician woman and say, "I can't feed the dogs the kids' food." And then she responds in faith and he's like, "What an amazing faith."

Darrell Hall: I don't know how Jesus was so present in moments. That's the other thing he would be, very present. How was he so present in moments to keep grace and truth in tension? I think sometimes in generations, we miss each other when we emphasize one over the other and vilify or criticize the other generation for its imbalance emphasis in other direction.

Darrell Hall: So, if a boomer pastor emphasizes truth, the bible says truth, but the millennial pastor is emphasizing grace. You got to see this from different points of views. There could be an inherent disconnect when both could be imbalanced in that tension. I think Jesus, I don't know how he would do it, but we saw him do it then. I'm pretty sure he would do it now. He would know where to give grace and where to hold a standard for every generation. He would know, and he would know how to do it in a way that was foolproof or he could address the Xer's need for intellectual stimulation and show compassion to their collective broken hearts.

Darrell Hall: I think he would, "Okay. Millennials, let's dialogue, but that dialogue wouldn't be only me hitting you over the head with truth," or only him giving grace for what all of your different opinions. I think he would engage in dialogue, keeping truth and grace in perfect tension. So, I think he would show compassion for the various levels of needs for belief. I think he would keep grace and truth in perfect tension where generations tend to have a preference to be in balance in one direction. And I also think Jesus would be very, very present, very present. Jesus would be awesome for Gen Z because his relational presence would, even as it did then, to younger generations, his warmth, his approachability. I think his presence would do the work that we try to do with our sermons, but we should be doing with our presence. But because he practiced, I can't remember .... A book called Faithful Presence. He practiced faithful presence with God. It made him able to be fully present. I think he would be the same with us. I think his presence would just be effective. It would help to get beyond some of the barriers without frustration.

Peter Englert: Man! This episode went by way too fast. So, Darrell, well, I'll have to go Dr. Hall on you right now, but you have an open invitation on this podcast and we're definitely going to have you back. So, we always end every episode with the question, what does Jesus have to do with this topic? I know you kind of just answered it, but I think you have more. So, this is how it works. Aaron, and I answer that question and then you get to clean up whatever heresy we messed up. Does that sound good?

Darrell Hall: Okay. All right.

Peter Englert: So, Aaron, do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?

Aaron McGinnis: I mean, I'll try to be quick. I'll go first. What does Jesus have to say about this topic? Thankfully, he's shown us. I think you're right. Compassion, love, grace, perfect tension, seek the father's will in all relationships because how are we supposed to know that perfect tension of grace and truth, love all people, know and love so that the compassion in our level will be evidence to all that he is near. So, there's so much here about bridging generations, about talking to one another, having actual conversations in community and a community that Jesus would want us to have where we are in agreement, we're of one mind. And unless we do the work to love one another, we're toast in that sense. There you go, Pete.

Peter Englert: Oh, man. I thought that was good. Darrell, as you were, just throughout this episode, I kept on thinking Jesus, for being an all-knowing savior, asked way more questions than we give him credit for. And I'm thinking about two situations, two conversations I've had within the last 48 hours. And the first one was I had an older generation person say to me, they were in a professional environment and they felt like the person went too far and they asked me, "What would you do about it?" And I owe all this credit to my mental health therapist wife and I said, "There's certain statements that you can make that actually elicit responses like questions." And the thought that came to me was I would respond to that person. "I'm a little surprised that you shared that much." And I think the way Jesus would handle this question, and as a pastor, I'm looking into my own soul of when someone says something that, it doesn't sit with me. Well, what questions do I need to ask or my wife's classic line, which is, "Tell me more. Tell me more."

Peter Englert: And just for our listeners, the second story is I just met with someone that's Generation Z this week. And they came to me and the line that will just forever be ingrained because of this book. I just want to see things from all sides. And if you don't understand generations and again, this is practical, not just ... I mean, we believe everything is influenced by faith, but this is practical for work and they had questions about science and the bible. And it took a little bit to kind of engage and kind of say, "Hey, help me understand before I respond and give you the answer that I think, I think what Jesus would do is, 'Hey, can we get behind the question that you're really asking?'"

Peter Englert: And I think every generation from the eldest elder, "Hey, help me understand why this truth is so important." And then to the youngest Gen Z, "I hear you pushing me on this. There's something there. Is there a personal story?" I think Jesus would do that. And yeah, "So, I just think Jesus would ask a lot of questions and would see people in ways that we don't."

Peter Englert: And I'll close with this, because anytime you get a pastor going, they just keep going. But you talked about seeing people like Jesus. There's a portion of him that he knows hearts, he's all-knowing, but then there's a portion of that that's our responsibility. Are we really seeing the people that we're with, each generation? Are we seeing the body language? Are we hearing the tone in their voice or where I've been sinful and where I've messed up. I'm crafting my response before they've even finished talking. And I think Jesus was a master with that. And yeah. So, that's all I got. Go ahead and clean up what ... You know, yeah.

Darrell Hall: No. Those are awesome. I heard you and a community. And that's what Jesus I think would expect us to do or what he would have to say about this. And I agree with you as well, Peter, about the ability to position oneself as student of a person, to win a person by helping them get beneath the layers of what they present. Trying to think. I could think of a couple things. The first thing I think Jesus would have to say to us about this is that the sons of darkness are more true than the sons of light, meaning, as believers, we shouldn't let the business world and the political world take generational science and leverage it for their agendas more than we take it to leverage it for the kingdom agenda.

Darrell Hall: I think Jesus will challenge us in the area. Don't let Amazon and city planners who are developing these live work play spaces. Don't let them outdo you in adjusting their approach and using data and information to further their agendas when you have an eternal agenda. I think Jesus would say that.

Darrell Hall: I think another thing Jesus would say is after all he did to reach people where they were, we should be willing to do more to reach people where they are. I know we do a lot to try to understand people and I don't want this research to be a burden like, "Oh, I got to learn something else," but I would say that there's no effort we can expand in the process of trying to reach people for God's glory. That's not worth it. And that our motivator is fixing eyes on Jesus to often finish the [inaudible] faith. He left no stone unturned. He went the full distance to reach people where they were and that's even before he went to the cross.

Darrell Hall: And so, our motivation is him. I think he would tell us, "As we represent the Lord Jesus, that, hey, we can add this to our tool belt, even if it's a new tool we're not as adept with." We can see people through the generational lens on top of the other demographic lenses, if it means being able to reach them because Jesus was one who was willing to exemplify. He set that standard for us. And he gives us hope for that. If there's anything else I think Jesus would say about this is I think he would say to us, and I don't want to sound all heavy handed with this, but I think he would say that especially the church leaders and family leaders, if you are the entrenched generation who doesn't want to share territory with the emerging generations, I think Jesus would say, "What was yours must become ours if it's really going to bring God glory." What do I mean? I'm a father of three Gen Z boys, 14, 12, 7.

Darrell Hall: Me and my wife, we're millennial parents. This is our house that we're sitting in. We pay the note on the mortgage. We pay the utilities, but what's yours, meaning what's mine must become ours. If this is going to be a home that really glorifies God, it has to have space in this culture to be shaped by the seven year old who pays for nothing as much as it is by the daddy who pays for everything if it's going to truly be ours. And to see my role as father, provider, and breadwinner as this is my stewardship of grace. This doesn't make my intrinsic value higher than my seven year old in our family unit. I'm a steward of the manifold grace of God as father. I'm not more important to the family unit as father.

Darrell Hall: And so, I would say that to the generations who are entrenched, who have done well, who led well, who have worked for the Lord for a long time, that though you have significant responsibility compared to the younger generations that you hope to meet, to reach intrinsic values equal your authority and influence is your stewarding of God's grace. No. It's not your church. It's our church, regardless of what all you've done for it. And we appreciate you for that. And to the younger generation, I would say, "As loving older generational leaders make room for us in our families, in our churches, and professional arenas that we show due honor and respect for those who come before us to be faithful stewards in their generation." And hopefully we can be faithful stewards in ours. I think that's what Jesus would say. I think he would say. Yeah.

Peter Englert: Wow. Well, just as we close up, we'd like to thank the great Krista Clayton, because two weeks after this episode airs, you can go to IVPpress.com, put in Why God, you get 30% off this book. So, we want to make sure we let all of our listeners know that. Go buy Darrell's book. Darrell, where can people find you online? Where's the best place?

Darrell Hall: Oh, the best place is social media, Instagram and Twitter. My handles the same, @IamDarrellHall. That is I-M-D-A-R-R-E-L-L-H-A-L-L, or you can find ... We have a YouTube channel with various sermons and devotionals on there. If you like some more content, you can find me also on my YouTube channel as well. And if you want to email me directly, you could email me. My email is [e-mail]. Again, D-H-A-L-L at IamDarrellHall dot com.

Peter Englert: Man. What a great episode. As always, you can find this episode and other great episodes by going to whygodwhypodcast.com and then click the subscribe button. You'll get this episode and other great episodes. We thank you so much for joining us. We hope you have a wonderful day.