056 | Georgie Bell | The Early Journey of a Founder-led Brand | The Heart Cut

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 56, I continued the conversation with Georgie Bell, The Heart Cut's co-founder from Ep.55. She has extensive industry experience, having previously worked at Diageo, Bacardi, and the Scotch Malt Whisky Society.

We discussed how to explain a product, starting from a liquid, going into taste profile, storytelling, and target occasions. We closed with a dive into the life of a start-up with learnings and course correction to build bottom-up. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

0:00 Intro

0:24 Where Do You Start

4:46 Importance Of Follow Up

7:41 Importance Of Normal Bars

13:05 Importance Of Off-Trade

15:18 When To Wholesale?

17:09 One Bottle, One Case, One Pallet

23:40 Building Demand With Partners

30:56 The Drinks Ecosystem

34:20 Start Up Challenges

47:34 Contact Details

49:19 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Georgie Bell

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Georgie Bell

Co-founder | The Heart Cut

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafair Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Maffeo in
episode 56.

I continue the conversation with
Georgie Bell from the Hard cut

from episode 55, so feel free to
listen to that as well.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
One last thing, if you enjoy

this podcast, you will also like
the Mafair Drinks guides.

You can subscribe free or paid
on mafairdrinks.com.

We spoke a little bit like about
targeting outlets and places and

typologies about that.
You mentioned before the hotel

specific hotels, bars, hotel
bars, specific type of place,

you know, you know whiskey bars
and so on.

So how do you start when
building your brand?

I mean you've been working
previously on big companies

where you know the distribution
was pretty much done I guess

unless it was a a a new launch
so to say.

But how do you target like we
got without going into, you

know, trade secrets of the hard
cut, but just like where do you

start?
Do you start from, from a city,

from a country, from, you know,
I discussed in a previous

episode like Ilias,
Mastroiannis, like you had this

thing like saying like adult
ponds lakes see, you know, like

to really grow in that, that
kind of element.

So what's your, what's your take
on that?

What's your approach to that?
So we've about caught taking a

city LED approach, it's multi
LED actually.

Apologies, when the Hot Cup came
into fruition and launched

originally in September of last
year, so September 2023, it was

pretty much behind the scenes
party, the only ones heard about

us.
That's wonderful because it's

meant that over the last six
months we've been able to tinker

behind the scenes and actually
figure out what's working,

what's not working, figuring out
our distribution, figuring out

like just that, figuring out
timings et cetera, et cetera

which I'm sure we can get into
later on.

But we've also had AT to C focus
the first six months, so selling

through our own website and
that's been sort of almost the

primary is D to C So for D to C
less of a city approach but more

of a country piece.
We are AUK based brand.

We know that that's where our
audience will be.

That's where we can distribute
from, from our D to C set up

with the third parties that
we're working with who helped us

bring that to life.
Now as we're starting to go into

on and off trades because not
only are we set up as a company

to do B to B so we can filter
bars and to to off trade

accounts.
But we've also been able to set

ourselves up with two
wholesalers who have taken a

chance on us.
And I say that because coming

from big corporations and big
company background, you really

take for granted distribution.
You really take for granted

distribution and then you start
your own company and you go,

gosh, I'm starting from nothing.
Even if you're launching a new

brand within a big company, you
already have those relationships

in place and you already have
sort of deals in place with

certain accounts.
So you can be like, hey, I've

got this new brand, bring it in
as part of that deal.

So you already do have it set
up, but we're starting with a a

city approach of London because
that's where my husband and I

are based.
And then we're also looking at

Edinburgh as well, because
that's where I lived for 10

years.
And it's where we have some

relationships and where there
are some brilliant cocktail bars

that we know that we have
friends behind the bars there

who love our brands when we're
looking at the right venues to

go in.
And I think when you're, when

you're doing your distribution
list, you can look at it in

terms of three different lenses
you want to be in bars that are

helping build your credibility.
You want to be in or let's say

bars, but accounts that are
helping build your authenticity

and you want to be in accounts
that have geographical

proximity.
So what I mean by that is

obviously credibility building.
So those award-winning accounts

that are out there that you know
will help build your credibility

within the trade because you're
found behind those bars, places

such as Lioness in London for
instance, authenticity is you

building up your space within
the category.

So for us that's very much your
whiskey bars.

So in London we're looking at
DRAM and also mill rides which

are really important to us and
we say a whiskey Club and

BlackRock and all of these other
brilliant whiskey bars that are

in London and then geographical
proximity which is sort of

helping that mental availability
for a consumer through a

neighbourhood.
So really that's that puddles

approach, you know, building up
in a post code.

Now you can write stuff down on
paper and you can save.

And I'm talking now from a hard
cut perspective, we can write

down, right, we want to be in
all of these accounts.

These are our dream accounts.
These are the ones we're going

after.
That's one and good if there are

accounts.
But what matters, and I know

you've written about this Chris,
is the bar manager already knows

what brands they want to bring
into their bar and if they've

not heard about you, well you're
not going to get in there.

You've got to make it your job
and your mind to be able to get

that bar manager to hear about
you, to then bring you in.

But not only get the bar
managers here about you to say

that they're going to bring you
in, but then get them to place

the order that isn't going to
bring you in further and that's

that's another stepping stone is
getting them to place that

order.
So we've picked accounts first

of all for the heart cut that
very much focus on credibility

and authenticity.
So first and foremost is the

authenticity bars are with the
bars in London because we know

that that is where people want
to drink a whiskey, where the

button is get what we're doing
and get they get why the hard

cut is doing something very
different to all other

independent bottlers out there.
With this new world whiskey

approach, with the
collaboration, with distinerism,

with the education aspect that
we're bringing in, which you

don't see across the others.
And we're also focusing on

credible accounts.
Again, some top 50 accounts, top

100 accounts, but also accounts
where we have friends behind the

bar while we're like cool, you
know us, you know what we're

about.
You know that we're pouring our

heart and our souls into these
brands.

And you know that at the end of
the day that the whiskeys that

are in these bottles are
incredible whiskeys.

And so that's that's what we're
going after right now.

Nice.
Now that's very, that's very

interesting and we discussed it
offline in the sense like with

you know with the with the MAFA
drinks guys like when I send out

these emails I know that it it
lands on something now because

it's it's very it's very
interesting.

I've been doing this strategies
for many, many years now like

this city strategies and and
what I felt and always as as an

issue when when I was let's say
I was getting a deck from the

global team in any company I was
working in and then it's lucky I

know the theory.
I know more or less what this is

about.
I know I need to pick the right

accounts, but then how do I do
it?

In Italian we say like between
saying and doing this, there's

AC in between.
No Alder, El farish, Adima

zumare.
And it's just like, I know it

and and I know that that
bartender promised to buy a

bottle, but my wholesaler hasn't
received that order anyway, you

know, so you know there's
something in between.

So I've done all the steps.
Right now it's not up to me.

But then of course I need to go
back and remind to place that

order.
No kind of thing.

You need to go back in and
remind and place the order.

But you also don't want to be
there, sort of being like, hey,

hey, Remember Me, that you place
that order, you know, pick that

annoying brass.
No.

And that and that's the that's
the thing.

But also it's important like
listening to you to what you

said about, you know, where you
have, let's call it like a

friends and family of the
bartending scene.

No, that sometimes you may, they
may not have to be super fancy

bars and you know, award-winning
bars, but they are the ones in

which you have a relationship
and you can test waters.

No.
And also like what?

One thing that I'm I, I write
about this in the guides because

I I've done it myself and I I
saw the mistake in that thinking

is that I used to think, I give
you a tangible example.

I used to live in Stockholm and
I there was a neighbourhood that

I really loved and we were used
to call it like Restaurant St.

because all the restaurant it
was really like in and out of

restaurants and bars and so on.
When I did the strategy on on

Peroni back then I blindly I
said that's the that's one of

the neighbourhoods that I want
to focus on.

But then when I placed the ping
on the pins on Google Maps, I

realized it was just like 5
places because I I did my own

segmentation on like it has to
be this type of venues.

So it's not like I don't care
where geographically they are

sitting, I want to have that
type of venues.

And I realized that there was
another neighborhood in

Stockholm that I would have
never thought of you know from a

top down perspective that was
really like over indexing on

those type of places.
So sometimes you have to

challenge yourself and you have
to let the map tell you back

what the reality is versus what
you thought because you will.

You may think, OK, this is like
shortage or this is like totally

Mayfair or this is totally so.
And then all of a sudden you

find out, I don't know, Clapham,
it may be a better suitable

place for the those particular
venues that you're looking for

because maybe those people with
that mindset hope that open the

bar that are looking for that
particular type of offering they

were looking for.
I don't know, cheaper rent then

short ditch and then they went
to Clapham and I think we we we

discussed it on what you think
is your target and what your

actual target is.
You know there is always more of

a bit of a lag and a difference.
Yeah, I I would also say that

when you're starting a brand and
you're you're the brand owner

and you're in the very early
day, you can't be too pressure.

We're counting bottles.
You know, we're not counting

cases.
And yeah, I saw one of your

postings, something about how to
sell your first 1000 cases.

I'm like trying to sell my first
1000 bottles here, let alone

cases.
And when you're selling bottles

and counting bottles, which
we're very much doing, and I

mentioned before, we're going to
the Wild Whiskey Awards tonight,

we have to buy a ticket and buy
that ticket.

I'm like, cool, how many bottles
do we need to sell to be able to

buy a ticket to go to this.
But when you're doing that you

can't keep be too precious.
And it's all very well and good

having down on paper, as I just
said, you know, we want to be in

our credibility and authenticity
building accounts.

That's wonderful then.
And I said we want to be in

London and Edinburgh and we have
this narrow and deep approach

into it.
But then there's this wonderful

spirit shop in Bristol called
Spirited who have heard about us

and they're like, we'd love to
stop your brand.

I'm not going to say no.
Amazing.

The woman, Katie who runs the
shop is incredible, of course.

Yes, we want to be in there
because you've got the right

mindset for us.
So what I mean by you can't be

too precious is you can have a
city approach 100% and you can

try and go after your puddles
and then ponds, etcetera.

But you also have to go where
there is desire with the right

mindset for what you're doing.
And when you're trying to do

something different, which is
again what we're trying to do

with our risky.
You have to go where people

understand you and where their
appetite for that and appetite

isn't restricted by geography.
Absolutely, absolutely.

And and let's say the, the only
caveat to that, you know, like

just to clarify is that you need
to be able to have a supporting

route to market to enable.
Yes, because that's what many

brands do wrong at the same time
when they go after

opportunities.
But then sometimes these

opportunities are in another
markets, you know, in another

country, in another state, you
know.

And then all of a sudden it's
like do you have that

distribution And then don't
appoint A wholesaler just

because you have one account and
you're still like a tomb people

band kind of ran.
So try to focus on that

particular place.
But nevertheless nowadays like

you know there there are ways to
bypass that like with you know

either D2C or you know shipping
a Bolton and some because I

think that the important thing
is also to clarify you know what

kind of categories are.
You know some categories like

yours are value adding
categories.

You know, you know like they are
probably like more expensive

bottles then like a a random, I
don't know, gin brand or vodka

brand.
You drive value before volume

you know.
But with some other brands it's

more like they need to to build
a little bit more scale.

So there is also like a a, you
know a clarification to be done

on that now but what is like you
you you mentioned before like

what what is your take because I
used to be known as a non trade

guy and now I'm I'm pushing this
you know bottom up trade kind of

approach.
Now that that actually merges on

trade and off trade together
where you can do the brand

building, you know, because I
must say like before working on

whiskey brands, I didn't really
include those kind of like

bottle shops and more like off
trade, independent off trade

outlets.
And then I, I started working

with whiskey brands and then I
started to challenge my own

thinking on this.
And then it's like actually they

play a huge role in the brand
building aspects because a shop

clerk or a shop owner is playing
exactly the same role as a

bartender or a bar manager, you
know, in that sense.

So what's your take on that one?
Like what?

What is the importance of of
trade outlets in building the

brand?
For us, off trade outlets are

hugely important and independent
off trade as well, because

that's why we're going to be
able to, again, as a small brand

that's striving, as you said,
value instead of scale.

We we have in total 2000 bottles
right now.

We've bottled 6 casks of whiskey
from around the world from

brilliant distilleries and we
have in total about 2000

bottles.
I mean we don't have all of

those right now because we have
sold quite a few.

So independent of trade is
hugely important also because

the people that have often built
those accounts are in those

accounts understand what we're
about and they look up, they

look for good favours.
They look for brands that are

doing something a bit different
and brands with value added

components to it, which is what
ours is because the hard cut is

one of those social currency
stories, something a little bit

different.
That means for an off trade

venue they can go to their
regulars that come and hey we've

just had this whiskey brands,
it's super cool, it's new on the

market, let me tell you a little
bit about it.

And for them as an off trade
account that's brilliant.

We've given them something
that's different that they can

then pass on to their consumers.
And also in some of these off

trade outlets, you're sat
amongst your peers.

You know, I always keep
perspective.

There are people behind those
shelves that you want to be seen

with.
So they are really important.

And I say independent.
They're more than chain only

because often it's easier to
work with one venue than it is

with 345 just right now for us
because we don't have that scale

and we don't have that manpower
to you.

As I said before, 1 massive
thing we didn't overlook.

But one thing that has become
more and more and more important

is route to market and
distribution.

You can be the most brilliant
market chair.

You can be the most brilliant
whiskey person.

I'm not, but you can be.
You can have the most brilliant

idea.
You can have the most incredible

whiskeys, which I really do
believe we do.

But if you don't have the right
route to market, if you don't

have the right belief from a
wholesaler.

Because as I said, we're set up
to sell to bars and we do sell

to some bars, but a lot of bars
will only buy 3 wholesalers.

So if you're not set up through
the right wholesalers who take a

chance on you because you are
new, if you don't have the right

connections with the accounts
you're going after, if you don't

have the time to go into those
accounts, to chase those

accounts, to get them to go
from, yes, we're placing an

order to actually placing an
order.

That's such a big area that if I
was to go back and relook at how

we were planning this as a
brand, I wouldn't change

actually anything for the world
because I do think we we've

built this brand in the right
way from the bottom up, from

very, very small learning along
the way and also not within our

own echo chamber, which is
important.

But one big thing would be
placing more of an emphasis on

how are you going to get a
conversion from yes, I will take

your brand to actually having it
behind the bar.

Yeah, and this is, this is like
what I, what I often stress

about what I call the unsexy
stuff when creating a brand.

Because of course it's it's more
fun to create, you know the

label and the story and and
everything.

And that's why, like I don't
work with that part because I

just inherit whatever the brand
owner has has developed.

Like, I don't want to challenge
anything.

You know, I could, I could say
whatever like about I like it, I

don't like it or whatever.
But then it would be like a

subjective conversation.
What I'm interested in is, is to

really convert that into a, what
I call a commercial essence, you

know, from a brand essence to a
commercial essence.

So what does that mean in terms
of bars?

What does that mean in terms of
typologies of bars and and

typologies of people?
And then you deep dive and you

go into what is the occasion
there, who are we fighting in

the menu who are we going after
And then you know you really

make it available.
No.

And to and to your previous
point like you know the the step

between being, you know the the
non wholesaler type of stage.

I call I call it the one bought
the it's funny because I'm I'm

building a course, a digital
course about this.

It's taking me a long, long time
because of time struggles, but I

call it the one bottle stage and
then there's A1 bottle, one

case, 1 pallet and these are the
three stages of a brand.

And it's funny because you
mentioned that like when when

you read my post and I was like
we're talking about the one case

1000 cases, no.
And then the first is there's

1000 bottles and there is that
moment that that is A1 bottle

stage, which you're thinking in
bottles, you're not thinking in

cases and you're probably
haven't appointed A wholesaler

because no wholesaler wants to
talk to you.

We are, yeah, we are in.
We're in bottle stages but we

are dealing with like we had a
had a six case order from the

wholesaler, 6 cases, my
goodness, one, it's huge.

That will pay for our PR company
for a month and a bit in my past

life if you were to say to me in
a sort of a Bacardi, if it's I

am sure if it's like how we've
sold six cases to a wholesaler,

I'd be like what starting.
But for us we're like that's six

cases.
It's so much so at the end of

the day, Chris, honestly and I
hope you're getting and it's

owning your own business.
Yes, it it's incredibly

stressful and everything, but it
it's so fun.

It is so fun and it's so
exciting because it's

challenging you in so many
different directions that you've

never been challenged in before
and you're figuring stuff about

out about your brand.
You're building it as you go

because with every new
conversation that you have with

a wholesaler, with an account,
with each time for me we do a

consumer tasting.
We're like picking up what,

what's dropping, what's
sticking, what's sticky here,

right.
And you're building as you, your

brand, as you're going on, as
long as you can have that

flexible mindset and a mindset
that's based on absorbing.

Information and then filtering
it out into a brand in different

ways.
It's it's really fun.

Absolutely no.
And I I mean, I'm, I'm smiling

because I, I like what you say
about 6 cases or like 1 bottle

or whatever that that amount is,
is that it reminds me of, let's

say for me is the same thing
with, let's say, listeners or

subscribers to the guides or you
know, like sometimes even when I

saw that message, it wasn't a
message.

It was like a post that you did
about you listening to the

podcast while you know, watching
your twins.

And it's one of those things.
And I really urge any listener

to reach out to me, you know, if
you feel that way now.

Because what I feel is that I, I
save all those messages.

By the way, you know, I have a,
a screenshot of every single

message that I receive because
for me it's like it's first of

all is the fuel to keep me going
because sometimes, like, it's a

lonely work now.
I mean, I'm sitting in front of

the screen typing or the, you
know, recording and everything.

But it's also like when you know
you when you think like if

somebody took the time to
actually go out there and either

write me a note or write me a
review or write a message or

share me with their peers.
It means something because it's

it's an effort and it may take 5
minutes, but it's an effort, you

know, from from people.
So it means you touched

something on that person.
No.

And it's the same thing when
they want to get a bottle from

you.
It's just like, you know, they

love your story.
So I I bet that at the

beginning, it's almost like when
they say I'll place an order,

like, you almost don't believe
it.

No.
You know, it's just like, no,

OK, like he said it, but he
didn't mean it.

Like, OK, let's let's carry on
And the conversation.

Yeah, I want it.
You know, I'm buying it.

And then it's just like, really,
you know, because that's the the

power of that moment.
No.

But one thing that I want to say
about what you were saying

before about the, let's say, big
players is that don't

underestimate the fact that even
big brands, they are bought in

bottle quantities because we
think in, OK, like wholesalers,

of course, they're buying
pallets of brands.

But when I work with big brands,
I'm also surprised sometimes

that you know that the majority
of the outlets, they buy

bottles.
Maybe they buy a bottle per

week, but they buy bottles
because they don't want to have

stock.
You know, very few people buy a

case or something unless they
know that they're going to sell

3-4 bottles out of those 6
bottles.

So you know, sometimes there is
this thinking that there is this

kind of like small brands versus
big brands and so on.

But ultimately at the bar, it's
a pretty even fight.

And that's the old thing about
building bottom up that if you,

if you think top down, of course
you're thinking pallets and

importers buying a container and
ultimately especially in

spirits, I mean I come from beer
and beer was, you know, it's

really like a bigger volume
business.

But in reality, like on on
spirits, people still buy

cocktail by cocktail that makes
a bottle and and so on, because

there's so many bottles on that
back bar that is quite

challenging.
Then it's another story on

actually being in the cocktail
menu and being able to support

with, you know, money or
investment and so on.

But that's another story.
But like what I'm interested in

knowing is like you mentioned
before that bartenders like they

already know what what they want
to get.

So how do you build that demand
before you enter the bar and

because you're working with
other distilleries, because

you're a bottler, you know how
do you play with their demand?

So they say you know like
because they have probably built

already, you know they are a
step ahead of you in building

that demand.
So how do you work with that and

how do you partner with those
distilleries to actually build

kind of like a mutual demand and
and get in?

Yeah, great question.
So as I said before,

collaboration is really
important to what we're doing at

the Hulk up.
So where some independent

bottlers stop, we start or we
carry on.

So obviously an independent
bottling model is we buy cars

from distilleries and then we
bottle them.

And for the most parts, I'm
saying for the most part here

because it's not everybody, but
you'll see the independent

bottlers name front and centre.
And then you might seem tiny

little typo underneath the
distillery from which the

whiskey inside or the spirit
inside came from.

But it's about the independent
bottlers.

And if you look at our labels,
our labels are spliff in half,

1/2 is about the heart cut, the
other half is about the

distillery.
It's a collaboration.

We pick our tasks in
collaboration with them.

We're here to help tell their
story of their distillery

through a different voice,
through our voice using the

whiskey that we have from that
bottle.

So the whiskey is the
storyteller, as it were.

Again leading with the liquid.
Why does it taste the way it

does?
Because of some of the the way

it's made and let's talk about
that from a distillery

perspective and we as a hard cut
are curating that and we're

helping consumers explore new
old whiskey through the single

cast collections that we create.
Now with that in mind and that

model, we're looking to be seen
as a force for good, as it were,

for that distillery, to help
them get more share on the back

bark.
So you'll be able to see on our,

for instance, our bottle number
six is from the Cotswolds

distillery just outside of
London.

So for the Cotswolds, the
brilliant thing about our

bottling is that they might
already have two bottles on the

back bar and then they'll have
the hard cut bottle.

So it's the Cotswolds, that's
another bottle for them.

It's great for us and it's great
for them.

So in an ideal world, in the way
that we carry on this

conversation with the
distilleries, OK, we've bought a

bottle from you, that's a cast
from you.

Sorry, that's wonderful.
Can we send a bottle to your

brand ambassador that's based in
the UK?

Hey, are they doing any
tastings?

Can we give you some of our
stocks so that they bring that

in?
Because ultimately our bottle is

just a different guys of what
your whiskey that you've made.

We are here because of you.
Let's work together on this.

We're an extended voice for you.
We are almost an arm of your

marketing department because of
how we're positioning ourselves

as the heart cut.
So as we grow, that is one piece

and we've started doing it now
with some of the six

distilleries that we're working
with to date and we have some

more lined up.
But as we grow, it's about

working with those distilleries
to say, hey, you have a

relationship with this bar.
Brilliant.

Would you mind giving us an
intro?

Would you mind, you know, if
you're again doing a training

with them, would you bring us in
as part of that?

But hey, you want to be in this
bar?

We've already got conversations
over here going, so why don't we

bring you in and talk about it.
We have an event coming up where

they want to start with
cocktails and we're like cool.

We're not cocktail brands, but
astounding one of our partner

distilleries, an incredible
distillery from from Denmark,

you might have had it before.
That whiskey is wonderful in a

highball.
So why don't we start with

astounding highball to begin
with, again as a way of talking

about their brands.
So basically, the way we're

looking to work with our
distilleries is who holds the

relationship where, And let's
play this as a force for good to

help both sides out.
But yes, we're talking to bars,

but there's also a massive
online audience as well.

And there's also a massive
consumer audience, especially

with whiskey, with whiskey clubs
and whiskey shows, right.

And that's one area, I think
with whiskey clubs and whiskey

shows that you perhaps don't see
as much without the spirit

categories.
So that's why yes, for whiskey

bars are important, but also and
also off trade is important and

these whiskey clubs and whiskey
shows.

So as we're doing whiskey club
tastings like I have a tasting

with a women's whiskey night at
Drum coming up, I'm going to be

talking about the partner.
I'm talking about the heart cup

50% of the time, but 50% of the
time I'm talking about these

other distilleries.
And these distilleries might not

have had a chance to speak to
this club before.

So that's where the nice,
mutually beneficial piece comes

into play.
Yeah, I I love that because it's

an evolving relationship.
I would say now because

especially when there is that
element of like who holds the

relationship and then there's
another element that with those

distilleries growing most
probably at a higher pace than

than the hard cap, because you
know, it's obvious that they

will be like that.
You know, like just from a

production perspective they will
at some point whether they have

done it already or not, like
they will lose control of their

distribution.
What you're doing there with you

know you are basically like a a
reminder like what I have in my

profile now on LinkedIn is like
I I have brands secure and sell

repeatedly their first 1000
cases in a city because that's

what brands do wrong now that
you know they forget about the

the foundational 1000 bottles
and cases in a city when they

grow.
When you become like 100,500

thousand bottles or cases brand,
you know you forget about first

fundamentals no.
And you will be a constant

reminder of the first handful of
brand building bottom up trade

accounts.
And maybe you know that

particular distillery in that
particular account is becoming a

little bit dusty and you are
like there like to remind them

and to take the dust off their
other two bottles that they have

with your shiny new bottle, you
know.

So it becomes like a constant
reignition.

It's a little bit like when in a
fireplace, you know, when you

put the new wood in, you know,
and then the older woods, you

know, gets light up a little bit
more at the beginning. 100% it

is that and it us talking about
the other expressions within

their range.
And every time we get a mention

from a journalist, it's not just
about the hard cut, but it's the

hard cut.
X bottling, hard cuts, Downing,

Butting, Hiro Bottling, Easton
and Liquor Company bottling.

It's always a reminder of this
other branch.

That's why, as I said, always a
collaboration.

I love that because it's it's
part of what I always talk about

about the drinks as an ecosystem
now because there is this

tendency like to to think in
silo like the sales versus

marketing and the sales and
marketing together against

production in the S and OP
meeting.

And then again like the
logistics are late and this one

is late and so on.
But ultimately we all part of

the ecosystem but also with
importers, wholesalers,

distributors, chains, bottle
shops and everything.

You know, we all there together
and it's very difficult to to

know where you know, to
attribute, you know where that

sale came from.
You know it could be that you

sell a bot.
So because somebody listen this

episode or it could be that they
were on a on a stand and they

saw they were in an airport and
they saw an Instagram post about

maybe was the distillery that
mentioned in their profile that

you were launching it.
You know, it, it can be

anything.
And you know, like getting out

of this attribution thing and
getting more into this.

And my friend calls it like
karma points.

You know, it's just like you
just do something good for

others and then somehow it will
go back to you.

I remember one of the best
feeling when I used to live in

Antwerp.
Yeah, when I did my thesis.

And one of the best feelings
there was was that, you know, I

used to go into a pub and they
have this pinch.

And like these small pints, like
they are 02, I would be sitting

at the bar and then I was
ordering around for people.

But you would buy around for
your friends and then people

would buy another round and
another round.

So it was that kind of like
buying around, but to the

extreme level because at some
point during the night you were

buying it to random people and
some random people came to you

like knocking on your shoulder,
giving you a beer for free.

You've never met that person.
You know, it wasn't like part of

your inner circle.
It was just like a random said

because everybody we're always
at that so we were all regulars

of that pub.
So at some point you know I

would have paid back that pint
you know, and but you were not

doing for the immediate return
of lyokam buy.

Some nights I bought 10 pints
and got back to you know some

other nights I got in and I
drank for free all night because

I never get.
I never got the chance to

actually pay that round back and
then you pay to a random people.

Then I I like this feeling about
the on trade as as an ecosystem

now because it's not about like
getting a Commission or getting

anything.
It's just like you know you're

doing something, you know like
sometimes you just mention the

name and you get a listing
because you know you just did it

that way.
Sometimes like you did the extra

work you you brought the bottles
of your partner distillers to

that training and they got a
listing with their products on

top of your product.
You know and it's this nice

mutual looking after each other
because ultimately there is

space for everyone if you are
differentiated enough to

actually know what you're
looking for and communicate to

consumer what to expect from
your liquid and brand.

Just to wrap up, we were smiling
before because one of the

questions that I wanted to ask
you was if you have a team and

then we laughed together about
that, What is your take on the

challenges of this startup and
building with the team, with not

having a team And tell us about
that because this is something

that resonates with a lot of
people.

And I was talking to a girl from
Texas the other day that is a

listener of the podcast.
And and she said, you know, she

said, like, I love to hear these
stories on the podcast because

of course, when you're
bootstrapping, you're always

kind of like in in that
continuous struggle, even in a

positive way, you know?
And she told me, you know, it's

so nice to hear that everybody
has similar kind of like

struggles, you know, that I'm
not the only one.

And she said something that
resonated with me as like I hear

that in their voice when they're
explaining, you know their

passion but also like what
they're going through and we all

this in in it together now.
So I want to give you some space

to to talk about you but also
like to alleviate the pain of

many other listeners in a solo
or dual band.

And they say like, hey, this is
not only me, I mean like this

everybody has similar challenges
than than we do.

Yeah.
So Chris, as I was mentioning

before, when you own a startup,
you are always on, you are

always on.
There is no 9:00 to 5:00.

So my husband and I that that
own the company and it's just us

working on that.
And yesterday we had an e-mail

through from a Japanese
distillery and they were like,

hey, we'd love to, we'd love to
work with you.

And we're like, Oh my goodness,
instead of us reaching out to a

distillery, A distillery to come
to us, which is wonderful.

And in the e-mail they said that
they're coming to London and

they'd like to meet us and our
offices.

And I'm reading this e-mail on
my phone and I look around me

and I'm standing in the kitchen
And then my husband, we're on

day two of weaning, so my
husband's trying to feed the

girls pureed potato.
We have a whiteboard next to us,

which is just a dumping ground
of everything to do with the

business scribbled on so many
times.

And then to do lists cross off
And then what if we do this, How

about we change the story that
way?

You know, it's incredibly
because you have to be dynamic

in these first instances.
You can't be too precious on

one's sticks.
This Is Us, you know, everything

is changing and this
flexibility.

And I'm like, well, this, this
kitchen right now is, this is

our office right now.
And I don't really think they're

going to want to come here.
We took a picture of it.

We've got bottles, we've got the
whiteboard, We've got the girls

eating potato, you know, stuff
on the floor, me answering

emails while trying to prep for
the day ahead while prepping for

this podcast as well while
putting in an order through our

ordering system.
We don't have a team.

We have us and we have a way of
working and actually we haven't

spoken about this, but when
you're working husband and wife

together, you have to be.
That's a different working

environment as well, which as I
said, you know with this brand

has been building up for a long
time.

So we found a really good way of
working together and we both own

certain parts of the business.
I he is very much sales and

operations and I am marketing
and brand and distineries,

right.
And that's kind of how we split

it out which works really well.
We each have the primary voice

on it, but then the other will
come in and check over if it's a

sensitive e-mail or
brainstorming.

And you know, we always run
things past the other, but we

ALS also have own relationships
that we own and parts of the

business that we own.
And if things get a little bit

heated and we don't understand,
we're like, cool, let's just

take a break, let's step out
couple of minutes and then we

come back and we're like, how
OK, how do we actually see this

coming to light.
There can be challenges within

that.
As I said, I, I, I loved your

podcast with Paul, the founder
of Few Spirits.

We've bottled from Few Spirits
Incredible Whiskey #5 for us.

And he said that as a founder,
his main job as he grew was to

fire himself.
He needed to fire himself from

every role that he had picked
up.

We're at the other end.
As founders, we need to hire

ourselves.
So every day is a school day

while learning new things All
today, right?

I have to do social media.
How do we do this?

What songs do we need to put on
our reels to capture attention?

That can be quite challenging.
But it also helps you realize

that when we do get investment
in and we will be going out for

investment, what are the type of
people that we're looking to

hire that could not only fit
within that ecosystem?

I'm not just talking about being
in our kitchen flinging potato

around, but you know, within the
dynamic ecosystem that we're in.

But because we've had to learn
some of those skills, what are

the skills now that we're
looking from for these people

that when we do eventually hire
that we'd like to bring in?

And to build on what you're
saying, is that because when you

said that I got it right away
what you want to say because

it's I'm doing the same but from
a kind of like software

perspective now.
So to say, you know, like I

started with, I was editing my
own podcast.

I look for the right platform, I
change.

I'm a little bit of a nerd
probably like I could write

about like software and
microphone and everything

because I digged into everything
that I wanted to buy.

But you know when you want to
offload yourself with things,

it's a totally different way of
doing it.

If you have done it because you
mentioned like choosing the the

music for the reels, what is the
volume what is the the

thumbnail, what is the thing
where the the software that we

are recording now on, you know,
I had another software, I didn't

really like it.
Now I I like this one better.

I cannot just hire a digital
agency or someone.

That will come in with their
tool because I know all of them.

So whenever I haven't, let's
call it like an interview with

anybody that I want some help
from.

I already asked them which tools
you're using.

What is this?
This is my practices.

I have all my systems, I have
all my nerdy things for saving

files, Dropbox, all these kind
of things.

So you have to match with me,
but also you have to match with

the flexibility that I've
developed in that and juggling

many balls at the same time.
Which makes it tougher to hire

someone because you just don't
hire someone blindly because you

know what to expect.
You know if they're organized or

not, you know if they are doing
certain things or not.

Which makes it very, very
challenging for a a founder LED

business to really fire him or
herself.

No, because all of a sudden you
know and and this is what we

were discussing before like
about do you sell by yourself?

No, obviously you do.
But sometimes it's a bit of a

chicken and egg because we were
discussing this before.

Sometimes it's like I am self
funded.

You know, I pay for this
podcast, you know, I don't, I

don't have sponsors, I don't
want sponsors.

So I want to keep it
independent.

So I pay for now for the editing
of the podcast and and

everything, all the softwares
and everything.

But what if I had done a
different choice in the

beginning?
What if I had half €1,000,000

funding because I had pitched
the podcast to someone?

Would I do the same things that
I'm doing now or would I do them

differently?
And I wouldn't change anything,

but probably I would have done
many things differently because

I would have hired people
relying on their knowledge.

Now it's my knowledge and I want
to transmit it to the people

that will be hired in my
business.

And there's no right or wrong.
Don't don't get me wrong, it's

just like between bootstrapping
and being funded and so on, but

it's just like that.
You need to be able to have a

clear understanding of what what
you are going to get in for you

know, be careful what you wish
for.

I would say, you know, because
you know, do you want to get,

you know, sometimes like I get
some not really offers, but

people like asking me like to do
businesses with.

And that's like I don't want
funded businesses because I left

corporates to be on my own and
to manage on my own and not not

to not have any boss because in
the end of your clients are your

bosses, your listeners are your
bosses, your subscribers are

your boss.
You know, you always have a boss

anyway, but it's just like on
what you want to do.

And I want to be able to adjust
the strategy.

I don't want to have a corporate
meeting with investors to decide

that I want to change certain
things in my company.

But you may want to do that
because you may be a different

person than I am.
And then you may not want to

have that freedom.
You may want to have more of

those signposts to guide you.
And that's totally fine.

There is a brilliant book.
You've probably read it.

It's called The Founders Dilemma
and it talks about why you're

setting up your company, you're
setting up for money.

It's I think you talk about
being money or power and kind of

the two don't go together.
It's a it's a brilliant book,

that book.
I mean we've kind of believed it

so many times, but I think you
know ultimately you can't wish

for the other thing.
I'm so happy we've done what

we've done with our business
that we've set it up just us and

we funded it just us because
it's meant that we've been able

to be dynamic to learn as we
grow, to grow as we learn and

actually really shake the
business out and to what it is

now compared to what it was six
months ago, right.

And we've been able to be
incredibly with that.

And we've also been able to be
on our own time scale again,

working out logistics, working
out really the practicalities,

getting a cost from a country to
our boss wing hall to our

distributor to get it to the
photographer, to then realize

there's a packaging problem to
get it back here, to get it back

there.
You know, now if you've got

investors coming on and they're
expecting things to go out as

clockwork, when you say they're
going to come out at the right

pace, well then you've got a bit
of a problem.

So I love that we've we've done
what we've done over the last,

you know that the business has
been through that over the last

six months and now that we've
been able to iron some of those

pieces out now you can go and
for us, I'm just talking us as a

business now we can go OK.
Now we figured some of that out

now we could probably OK
bringing investment in because

now we have our ducks in a row,
we thought we had them in a row

and we very much didn't.
So I'm keen to speak to many

other founders on this and what
point did you get investment in?

Did you know it was the right
time?

How do you know it's the right
time to bring investment in?

Is there ever a right time?
Do you just go with it?

But as I said, I do not regret a
single thing about how this

business is going to what it is
today because it's been really

helpful actually being on our
own, dying and figuring that out

from the get go rather than
exposing ourselves too quickly.

Yeah, I can imagine.
I can imagine this is also

something that I I mentioned to
you to you earlier like you just

need to go with 80% good.
It's better than 100% perfect

especially because no matter if
you are a perfectionist or not,

it it's a matter like that
perfection doesn't exist.

You know like and you cannot get
it because until you go and test

the market it doesn't work.
And if if it was you know if it

was a science, it would be much
easier for big brands to nail

every single launch, right?
You know, but they don't, you

know, they still do mistakes
with billions of dollars of

investments cumulative all
around the world, there are

still huge companies that do
really bad launches, big

mistakes and so on, because it's
ultimately like human

interactions.
We trade with wholesalers, with

distributors.
There are opportunities that are

saying and the important is to
be agile.

That's the first thing, you
know, like not to build that big

infrastructure that you cannot
really move anymore, but also

like to really be able to get
opportunities and and just play

with it and sensei, OK, does it
work?

I was reading something about
Spotify.

You know, you know, they don't
launch a novelty.

You know, they launch maybe in
one market only to some people

they tested, they let you test
the updates and then they roll

it out to other people, you
know, so you could test

something in five bars, see if
that works and then you roll it

out to your other thirty 5100
bars.

You know, it doesn't have to be
like we are used to thinking big

companies on we're going to
launch in 600 wholesalers on the

same day, you know, because it
it doesn't have to be that way

and especially like you cannot
even do it as a as a small brand

anyway.
You literally don't have the

time or the manpower.
You you just you just can't do

it.
You can't.

So let's wrap it up.
I don't want to steal more of

your of your time.
I want to give you some space to

tell our listeners where they
can find you the hard cuts.

You know anything you want to
mention on here?

Thank you.
Well, the hard cut, as I've

mentioned a couple of times
during this chat, is an

independent bottle there that
spotlights New World whiskey

distilleries.
And what we do is create a range

of incredible single cut bottle
things to help consumers explore

and discover new distilleries
that they might not have come

across before.
So we are very much an aid to

consumer discovery of this new
world whiskey landscape.

We have 6 casts out to date or
incredible whiskey, very, very

different depending on your
taste.

From our head of Smoked single
Malt finish and Madeira cast,

from Astounding Distillery in
Denmark all the way through to

our rye whiskey from Few Spirits
in Chicago that's been finished

for three years in a so
turncast.

Phenomenal.
We're available via our website,

theheartclub.com.
We're also available through the

Whiskey Exchange, and you can
find us from a wholesaler

perspective through Speciality
and Three Drinks One.

Fantastic.
So thanks a lot Georgie for your

time and I hope to thank you in
person at at some point.

For a whiskey.
Absolutely.

Of course.
That was a given.

Or a whiskey, of course.
All right.

Take care.
Thank you.

I will come to one of your taste
things so I can taste them all

in in the same time.
Thank you so much, Georgie.

Thanks, bye.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, 55 and 56.

If you enjoyed it, I have a
small ask.

Please rate it, comment and
share it with friends and come

back next week for more insights
about building brands from the

bottom up.
One last thing, if you enjoyed

this podcast, you will also like
the Mafair Drinks guides.

You can subscribe free or paid
on mafairdrings.com.