Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Slava and Jonathan discuss Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell, a short story by Brandon Sanderson from the Dangerous Women Anthology edited by George R.R. Martin and Gardner Dozois. The guys look at some of the elements of the short story that fascinated them. Jonathan admits he is only the second biggest fan of Brandon Sanderson.
Our IG Channel | Our TikTok Channel | Music by HoliznaCC0v
Creators and Guests
What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?
If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.
Good morning, good afternoon, and good night wherever you're tuning in. We are Jonathan and Slava bringing you the SideQuest podcast where we talk about stories, literature, and character development, all the things that are and then we occasionally take side quests because, well, frankly, that's how conversations work. So we're here to talk to you today as 2 literary fans. I don't know. Do you consider yourself an expert?
Slava:Ex no. Not in literature.
Jonathan:Alright. So Slava's an expert, and I am an amateur. And we are very we're here to talk to you about a short story. What is it called, Slava?
Slava:The shadows for silence in the forest of hell.
Jonathan:Yeah. It's a long title, so sometimes I forget. It is written by Brandon Sanderson. It is a short story. Not even technically a novella.
Jonathan:It's so short, but it's set on I wanna say let me start from the beginning. It's set in the Cosmere. And for those who don't know, the Cosmere is a long term project that Brandon Sanderson has been working on. His first published book was in 2005, but he's been working on it since way before that. I'm one of I was gonna say I'm one of his biggest fans.
Jonathan:That's not true. I'm a big fan. I only say that I'm not one of his biggest fans because I can't remember the name of the title of the book or the planet that it's on. So one of the things about the Cosmere is that it is set in this universe where each series takes place on a different planet, And those planets have different magic systems, but they're all interwoven and connected because they're part of the same universe. That's where we're tuning in today.
Jonathan:Slava, this is your second Sanderson piece that
Slava:you That's right. To open it. Like I told you the other day, this is 2 for 2 for me. Liking it. Liking both the first book we read, which was Warbreaker and, this one.
Slava:I don't think I was a big fan of fantasy when we started this project, and then you gave me 2 fantasy books to read, one of them being Sanderson's Warbreaker. And I enjoyed both the fantasy books and both Sanderson books specifically. I think because the pace of the writing kept me engaged. And then you can call I guess you can call me a convert now because I will explore other authors and literature as time goes on Yeah. Irrespective of this project.
Jonathan:Slava wasn't super into fantasy before, and I frankly, we fantasy as a genre has been on coast mode, and I don't this is just gonna come off as offensive. I wanna give it a precursor that finishing any piece of artistic work is really freaking hard. I am a filmmaker by trade. Back in the day, I've switched over to marketing at this point. But so finishing a feature film, even if I watch one that I'm like, meh, it wasn't very good, I know how hard it is to make.
Jonathan:The same thing is, the same thing applies to writing books. I have tried to write a number of books and have failed miserably each time. So I say this next set of things with the precursor. I have the utmost respect for people who have accomplished writing a book and then publishing it. And that's just even self publishing, more even more so for people who've been attached to publishing companies because that's where you can actually make a living.
Jonathan:So that preamble leads to some fantasy books are just not good. They've been on coast. Like, Tolkien is looked at as the grandfather of fantasy for Lord of the Rings, Hobbit, which is great. Lewis, I think, can I would consider him to be part of the fantasy genre with Narnia? Mhmm.
Jonathan:Not so much his sci fi series, but also the sci fi series. Like, that helped push, you know, sci fi and fantasy is normally held together as a single genre when you're looking for books in in on the Internet. But for a long time, there was just this copy and paste style fantasy, Jordan Magic. Just, hey. This is going on.
Jonathan:Hey. There's a dragon. Hey. There's a this. Hey.
Jonathan:There's a that. And it's fun, but it's not riveting. And I try to only recommend things that are actually of quality because there's no point in you know, all the memes I send you, there's no point in me sending you memes that aren't actually funny. But even then, it's like, well, you can only send so many. Anyway, that's a lot of talking from me.
Jonathan:What was your preliminary thought? Because we're gonna do a 5 episode short miniseries here about horror, thriller, and just kind of, like, darker pieces. So when I gave you that list of here's what I think we should do for our first five episodes, what what are your give me give me a little rant here. You've read Sanderson before with a full novel, so you had some idea of who he was. But when I said, hey.
Jonathan:We're gonna read something that's more darkish. What were your initial thoughts?
Slava:Coming into this second reading of Sanderson, the liking Sanderson, and for the reasons you just mentioned, because my exposure to fantasy was the dragon and sword and knights of the round table only transposed into an other world, which sometimes is okay, but after a while, it gets stale. And, also, I agree. As somebody who's tried to write and wrote as when I was a kid, I tried to write stories and was somewhat successful, I guess, for whatever you you can call successes for a kid writing short stories for a class. It's taken me about 5 years to get through about 4 pages, 5 pages and always refining, and maybe that's my problem. So, obviously, if you get a book published, you've done something, but there's good books and bad books.
Slava:So going in going into this one, I was excited because I like darker fiction. I like horror. 1 of my favorite horror books is The Exorcist by Blady or Blady. I think his name is Blady. That's how you pronounce it so.
Slava:Like dark fiction, I like short stories more than I like long novels, So I was excited going into this, and I was I was happy with the outcome. I wasn't surprised that I liked it because I already knew Sanderson at least Sanderson's pace of writing and how is he develops characters and how he, I guess, the word is telescopes what might come in, next couple pages. How he does that, like, he builds suspense. Yeah. And he makes you care for the characters.
Jonathan:Give us a rundown. What are the characters that we meet? Oh, I shouldn't have to say this, but there will 100% be spoilers in every book that we discuss ever. Deal with it.
Slava:Yep. Even more. So there are 7 characters that are, like, the main characters or both points of view who we get. Right? Or, like, there's about 2 characters of from of whose point of view we get.
Slava:Well, the story is set on 1 of 2 continents on a planet in the Cosmere. It's a dark continent. People who live here I heard a podcast. I listened to a couple podcasts discussing this book too. One of them said that this is a wild west frontier of this planet.
Jonathan:Look, you've been achieving.
Slava:Yeah. I try. But we're not gonna I'm not gonna repeat what they said because I think they took it a different way than what we're gonna talk about. But, anyway, one of the things that I did find interesting is that they described this continent as the frontier of this planet. People have ran away there or pushed there, and these people live a harsh life, a dark life.
Slava:It's a difficult life.
Jonathan:It certainly looks that way when they're like when she's talking about the fact that the only safe place out here is her inn. You know?
Slava:Yeah. Right. So you have the protagonist whose name is Silence Montaigne, and she's the owner of this waypoint or this inn. And we quickly find out that she is also she is also a bounty hunter. Everybody assumes a man.
Slava:It's actually this woman who runs an inn in the middle of the forest. We have her daughter, Willia Mann, which is an interesting name, but Willia Min Montaigne. We have another daughter, I guess, an adopted daughter, at a Silence House whose name I forget.
Jonathan:Sabruki.
Slava:Sabruki. That's right. Yep. And, I'm a tax collector. We have 2 drinkers in the in the inn, and they talk, and you get bits and pieces of the story through their dialogue.
Slava:And that's all I remember right now. Then there's a bad guy named Chesterton who ends up dying an unpleasant death.
Jonathan:Right. So there's technically 10 people or, like, 10 characters because it's a short story that we meet overall. Some of them have very minor parts like Dob at the end. Like, you he gets mentioned as a as the stable boy somewhere near the beginning and then has a minor role or major role depending on how you wanna count at the end.
Slava:So, like Minor character that does a major thing.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. And then Silence's grandmother, right, who pops up at the end as a shade. Did I say that right? Shade?
Slava:Yeah. As a shade. That I wasn't expecting.
Jonathan:Right. Isn't that fun? That is great. She's got this monologue because we're mostly following Silence's thought process and her feelings on everything, and she talks about things that her grandmother taught her and whatever. And then at the end, she her grandmother has been made a shade, and she's kept her in this closet.
Jonathan:So, like, how did you tell me how you thought she was gonna get out of that situation before that happened.
Slava:See, I was going into it. It brings us to remember we decided 3 interesting things about the story? Yeah. One of the things I found very interesting about the story is that the heroes live. Right?
Slava:They're and they survive pretty well. It wasn't like they don't come on come out unscathed, but Yeah. They win. The good guy wins here. Mhmm.
Slava:So what I found interesting was that, but it go as I was reading, I'm like, somebody's gonna die. There is gonna be a death and it's gonna be horrible and sad. And so I was just waiting for something to happen, whether she was going to kill the tax collector or try a sleight of hand and somehow the tax collect collector was get the 1 up on silence defeat silence. And then the story ends with Sabruki and William Ann somehow trapped or in his debt. The debt will transfer over.
Slava:So I didn't think she was gonna get out of anything. I thought she was gonna do something drastic as she as she did on the, in the forest. It turns out it was just a grandma in the closet. Yeah.
Jonathan:So I'm looking at the Coppermind, which is, like, a very big Sanderson wiki that the real fans contribute to, and Shades are vaguely based on Jewish tradition. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Slava:I heard that as I was perusing a few different podcasts, so somebody mentioned that. I don't have any thoughts on that because I was confused as to where they made the connection. Is it the Sabbath rules or something like killing fire? Because I don't see a direct correlation because well, let's explain to the folks. Like, so the shades will attack.
Slava:They're all they're always in the forest. They have green eyes. They're these almost almost immaterial beings, but yet they can interact with the material world at times. Like, they can grab you and touching them shrivels up your skin and kills you eventually. But the 3 three things that throw them into a rage is drawn of blood, the kindling of fire.
Slava:What else? What's the third one that
Jonathan:Fire, blood, and oh, man. I'm drawn a blank. I don't remember the third one. So this is why I pause this is why I pause where I'm like, I'm his biggest fan. No.
Jonathan:That's not true. I'm I 100%. I regularly think about this because I've had had people be like, oh, wow. You seem like such a big fan. And I go, I'm a I'm a I'm a fanboy where, like, I haven't put the work in to I haven't gone to any of his conferences, but I did just buy a couple pins for my leather not leather jacket.
Jonathan:Jacket, my denim jacket to put that are only given out at the conference. So I'm So you're a
Slava:fan fan?
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's just like tourist.
Jonathan:I don't have an answer to your question, but back to the Jewish mythology thing where it's like jades are spirits or demons in the Tanakh. They're they're the shadim. And so, like, Sanderson's not he he's smart. He takes something that exists in the world that has been developed over centuries or millennia and makes it his own. Right?
Jonathan:So the shade mythology of a spirit from the underworld coming back and, like, roaming the Earth, that's not new. That's not unique necessarily, but his take on it with them being set into a rage by blood, fire, or did you look it up?
Slava:I'm looking
Jonathan:it up. Okay.
Slava:Yeah. So do not kindle a flame. Do not shed blood of another, and do not run during the night. So I can see a little bit about Jewish theology and mythology. I can see where he draws it from and it's not like a direct here are rules in this Jewish book of mythology or Jewish book of theology.
Jonathan:Jewish mysticism.
Slava:Mysticism. Yeah. So do not kindle a flame. That's a Sabbath rule. You should not kindle a flame on the Sabbath because considered work.
Slava:Do not shed the blood of another. That's my 10 commandments. Do not run at night. That's probably from the Proverbs or
Jonathan:Could be work as well on Sabbath.
Slava:Yeah. Like But
Jonathan:no working on Sabbath.
Slava:Do not travel during the Sabbath. Do not do anything extraneous during the Sabbath. I think I'm not an expert on Jewish mysticism, but I can pinpoint where
Jonathan:But you play 1 on TV?
Slava:I do sometimes, but I can pinpoint where Sanderson, drew from. Maybe he's less of an expert on Jewish mysticism than we are, and there's something wrong with that. But I can tell probably where he pulled these out. So that's interesting. That's and I like it when authors do that because then you're it's easier to immerse yourself in the story.
Slava:It's not a completely other world. Sometimes it is. Right? And that that that shows Sanderson's ability to craft a good story and to craft a good world. Right.
Jonathan:So yeah. Sorry. Did you have a final No.
Slava:That's it. That's it.
Jonathan:Move on to the I'm gonna shift to a topic that Sanderson fans and specifically Cosmere people will, well, they they should know about. So in the book, there is this mention of the God Beyond.
Slava:Mhmm. Yep.
Jonathan:Okay. This is actually the most notable story that Sanderson has written that focuses on the god beyond. So little more about the cosmere. The cosmere, it one of the main narratives that's woven throughout all of his series is this general god named Adonalsium who was shattered into 16 pieces, which then became shards, and the shards are what become gods on the different planets. However and I was having this conversation with my friend who is a Sandersonite cosmereite cosmereian.
Jonathan:We're gonna have to come up with a word for this. See, this is why I'm not, like, the biggest fan. There there are things I just indulge in the fantasy that is Sanderson where he had mentioned, oh, yeah, the god beyond, and I was like, what are you talking about? This is, like, 2 months ago because Sanderson in November released The Lost Metal, which is the 4th book of Mistborn era 2. So Mistborn was gonna be a trilogy of trilogies, but now it's evolved into something a little bit bigger.
Jonathan:But in we were talking about it, book 4, because one of the characters, Wayne, mentions the god beyond, and he's like, oh, yeah. The god beyond. And I was like, what are you talking about? So I had to go look it up, but the god beyond is actually mentioned in a variety of books that Sanderson has written as, like, this little piece. And Sanderson's really smart.
Jonathan:He drops these one liners that he'll connect in a different book Mhmm. As he's been planning this stuff out for ages, which is why the books feel so real. The books feel so well thought out. They feel the characters feel notable, but I was actually texting my friend while I was going through this, and I was like, oh, yeah. Actually, God Beyond is mentioned, like, a dozen times in this short story.
Jonathan:And one thing that I wanna note is that the grandmother who's trapped in the closet, the line goes, the closet was covered by 3 sets of silver because the shades are also, like, averse to silver, but it was only covered by 3 sides. The closet was covered by 3 sides, and the closet also had a shrine to the god beyond in it. And so the presumption here, at least on my part, is that the 4th wall is the god beyond, but the grandmother just willfully goes back in. And we don't know anything about the god beyond. We don't know that the god beyond is a shard because each shard has, like, a word as a little additional note here.
Jonathan:So you read Warbreaker, and the shard that is living on it and the power the god of Warbreaker is endowment. So that's the shard. Sometimes the shards actually get character time in these books. A book that I really want us to get into, but it's a strong commitment, but it's definitely worth it, is the Stormlight Archives. And it actually just picked up the paper book copy because my girlfriend's starting to read it because this is what I do is I date these women and then make them read these thick they think they're thick, but these books are actually really thick, double c's.
Jonathan:I make them read
Slava:Well played.
Jonathan:Thank you. These thick fantasy novels in endowment. But the character time, sorry, that happens on the Stormlight Archives is passion and cultivation and honor have time as characters in this narrative, and so the god beyond is just curious because we don't really know a lot about the god beyond. There's a character who's a world hopper named Hoid who refers to the god beyond in a parable when he's talking to one of the characters, But it's just an interesting fact that happens in this book that as a cosmere person, it's notable, but there's no real conclusions that can be drawn at the moment far as I'm aware. And Sanderson has this thing where whenever he gives talks, if someone will ask a question, and if he either hasn't decided on what the outcome will be or he doesn't wanna ruin anything or he simply doesn't wanna give the answer, he'll say, Raffo, which means read and find out.
Jonathan:So he's just always driving people back to the book.
Slava:Right. So the, yeah, the god beyond here on copper mine is he's described as the unknown god that is worshiped on multiple planets in the cosmere. It is a belief in the greater god of the universe beyond the entities known as the shards. So this is, like, the God of gods. That's what it was in some way in the cosmere, which is interesting because drawing from the real world, as you mentioned earlier.
Slava:This is drawing from Mormon theology, and Sandersonism is part of the LDS church, and their belief system is that there are gods out there of planets, and then there is the God of the Bible that rules them all, and that's an oversimplication of Mormon theology, so don't at me in the comments. But, basically But
Jonathan:you should add him anyway.
Slava:Basically, if you asked a Mormon who knows their theology, they would say that's the starting point. So that you're correct. So interesting to see where he takes as I will continue reading Sanderson. Again, outside of this project or for this project, I'd be interested to see where he goes. And this is me 2 books in, so I'm sure Sandersonites, as you call them, would probably be able to give me a rundown on where he's mentioned, how he's mentioned, where else he pops up in the stories.
Slava:But
Jonathan:So, yeah, more on that more on that when I get you to commit to reading the Stormlight Archives. Some people so there's this argument that folks who read the Cosmere sometimes have, which is where do you start when you're trying to pull someone in? Which book do you start them on? I started on Warbreaker. I think it's it's it shows his writing has evolved enough because it was released in 2007 or 2008.
Jonathan:It shows that his writing has evolved enough, and it's interesting enough to provoke questions. It's also, in my opinion, the most fun, and inclusive is not the word, inviting prologue because the first line, and I always remember this because it just has always stuck out to me, is it's funny, Vassar thought. How many things begin with him getting thrown into prison? That's it. That's the opening line.
Jonathan:And you go, excuse me. Like, I have a lot of questions. It's one line. It's one line. But and Sanderson probably would he he's a pretty humble guy, which I appreciate, but it's one of the things I love about Tolkien is Tolkien was so enamored by the world that he built that single lines that are just alluding to something like the witch king of Endor.
Jonathan:One little comment about the witch king of Endor over in the mountains, and then the story continues on. And, like, we don't talk about it ever again. It's okay. I know Tolkien, and that's not nothing. That's something.
Jonathan:So the fact that he can start a line where it's like, it's funny if I should've thought how how many things start with me being thrown into prison. And it's okay. So tell me about the history here because the character clearly has been around for a while long enough to get thrown into prison more than once and long enough to be thrown into prison enough to for it to be a path, and so it just it provokes you to be like, tell me more about this character.
Slava:Yep. And that's one thing I appreciate about Sanderson and other authors. If you can read not every book is gonna be this way, but if you can read, like, the first page, even if that's just in a small paperback marketplace edition, like, it is like the first hundred words, let's say, then you can be like, oh, okay. And it makes you wanna read the next page and the next page. Or as of the prologue, you're like, oh, crap.
Slava:I do wanna read the rest of the page. And it's usually a line or 2 that evokes that. It's not like you read the first three chapters, and this could be it for somebody, but you read the first three chapters and you're like, oh, okay. Alright. I can stick with this.
Slava:I enjoy books where there's, like, a line in the prologue or a line in the first chapter. Very early on, they just kinda where's where's the hook? And then just something clicks, and you're gonna wanna finish this book.
Jonathan:Yeah. Exactly. Yep. So let's dive back into the story itself because we've gone on, as we say, a couple side quests here. Yeah.
Jonathan:Okay. So in the off screen talking that we had, you also mentioned the cognitive abilities of the shards. So tell me what your thoughts are about that and how that relates to the forests of hell. And silence montane, which is just a really good good name, anyway.
Slava:Yeah. And even even the title, maybe we can touch on that a little bit later, but silo shadows for silence in the forest of hell. It is interesting, I think, a way of really tying the title to the story.
Jonathan:Let's just talk about that now then because I am just now realizing that. This is why I'm not the biggest fan. So I'm a fan. I'm a fan, but I was like, oh, yeah. No.
Jonathan:It's literally just staring me in the face and yeah. So what other things have I missed, Slava? Please enlighten me because clearly I'm ignorant and blind.
Slava:The shadows, I guess, are could be taken Shades. Couple of ways, but they're the shades.
Jonathan:And her history with her grandmother.
Slava:Yeah. Yeah. That could be yeah. See, that's interesting. Shadows?
Slava:Yeah. Because her grandma didn't get along. There's a lot of tough love there, and she hates and loves her grandma at the same time, which I can relate to. Not the grandma thing, but I've had people in my life, family members who are just complete asshats. Like, outright Haven't
Jonathan:we all?
Slava:Horrible people. Right? Like, in power and authority over me. I'm thinking of a particular person, and his influence on me really guided some of my music tastes, some of my literature tastes. I can fully admit that, but overall, can I say me and this person had a good relationship?
Slava:Not at all. He treated me like absolute garbage most of the time. And the time that he did treat me well or imbued upon me some sort of wisdom or help or offered me some help that made me a better person, that wasn't out of any feelings of commitment or whatever to me personally. It was just this is my duty as a human being to slap some sense into this into this person, and it worked. Right?
Slava:It's I can't take that away from me, but I can understand the characters. Wow. If it wasn't for this person, I'd probably be in an not at such a good place. I'd be in a worse off place than I am now. Or dead.
Slava:Like, really. Given my childhood, I could have been dead. But at the same time, he treated me like carbon Sure. Oftentimes. So I understand how silence feels.
Slava:And so getting back to the story, yeah, there's shadows there in that relationship. If it wasn't for grandma, silence wouldn't know half of the stuff that she knew.
Jonathan:She wouldn't have survived.
Slava:She wouldn't have survived. Yep. And even the fact that the grandma has a shard still sticks around, like, she willingly goes back in the closet where she's kept for years, probably decades or at least 1 decade. If I'm reading the story correctly, she would have been dead right around the time that William Ann was born or shortly after. Because we don't get a sense from William Ann that she remembers.
Jonathan:Little bit, Yeah. Yeah. It's a little obscure.
Slava:Right. I don't get the sense from William Ann that she knew her grandma for her great grandma because there's a silence as grandma. Right?
Jonathan:True. True.
Slava:Yeah. We don't we don't
Jonathan:have any info on the silence's parents.
Slava:Yeah. Because they died, and grandma took her in.
Jonathan:Right.
Slava:Yeah. So what were we talking about? We kinda we went on a psych was for sure. What was your question?
Jonathan:Asked you about the shards. Right. One quick correction. You'd mentioned that the grandma was a shard, but she's actually a shade, but it's just like a word. Like, they're very close words.
Slava:Yes. Yes. Shades. We're talking about shades. Yeah.
Jonathan:So Cosmere boys will be in the comments. Or Oh, goodness. Cosmere folks will be like Yeah.
Slava:Yeah. So the shades. So what I found interesting about them or what I wanted to learn more about them, I found them interesting as a as an entity. But what I wanted to know more is what are their cognitive abilities? How do they know what's around them besides it?
Slava:Because they fly into rages. Right? So there's this entity that are
Jonathan:Oh, they're the shades. The shades, not the shards.
Slava:Oh, goodness gracious. Yes. The shades. The shades in the forest, they go apoplectic if you spill blood or light a fire or walk faster than 2 miles an hour.
Jonathan:Yeah. Okay. Tell okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah. So shades. I really thought you were gonna talk about the shards because the shards are so prevalent in the cosmere. I was like, oh, he probably did some research and has thoughts on what the shards relevant even though there's no shard on this particular planet. So I'm a little disappointed right now that you actually met the shades, and it's just been, like that the words are similar, and so you've made a mistake.
Slava:I made a mistake.
Jonathan:I'm a little bit let down here, and I'll take that out on you later when we're off camera. But so, yes, the shades, they have some sort of sentience. Right?
Slava:Yeah.
Jonathan:They have some sort of so do you know about investiture?
Slava:In my research, my exploration of the copper mind and other podcasts that have talked about Brandon Sanderson and the Cosmere, I've heard it mentioned and even explained in bits and pieces, but not enough to speak to it in confidence.
Jonathan:Okay. So the Cosmere is made up of 3 realms, the physical realm, the cognitive realm, and the spiritual realm. And when we get to the Stormlight Archives, because we are going to get to the Stormlight Archives, it's a full commitment, but, you will not regret it, and I would stake money on that. I stake a $100, yeah, on this or a nice bottle of whiskey. Right?
Jonathan:Nice bottle of whiskey. Side note, you still owe me one, from agents
Slava:That's right. You do.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's on record. You guys heard it first.
Jonathan:He still owes me a bottle of whiskey. Anyway, so I will stick a bottle of whiskey.
Slava:So I'll just call it a wash. If we make it through this Storm Ollie icon.
Jonathan:No. No. No. No. No.
Jonathan:Yes. We make it through the Stormland archives, and you don't like I owe you a bottle of whiskey.
Slava:Okay.
Jonathan:But the gift giving also matters, bruh. Like
Slava:This is true. And it's keeping your word.
Jonathan:Also matters. Awesome. That's true. Highest values is personal responsibility and keeping your word. So, anyway, the cosmere is made up of the physical realm, the cognitive realm, and the spiritual realm, and you see that more prevalently in Stormlight Archives.
Jonathan:That's what I'll say about that. But what most likely is happening with the shades, because I've read other cosmere books, is they have to have some sort of investiture, which is this energy that this is not a great way to say it. This energy that comes over from the spirit realm, I'm so this is another reason why I'm, like, not the biggest how do I explain investiture to someone who doesn't know investiture? The cosmere has laws, and some of the laws are this magical essence called investiture. It's an energy.
Jonathan:It's a mass, which is why each planet has a different manifestation of the investiture. So, like, on Warbreaker, part of the investiture is the gods, the returned gods. Right? Require investiture to be returned. That example given, the shades must be tapping into some sort of investiture on Threnody, the planet, even though it's not currently connected to Shadesmar, which is the spirit realm.
Jonathan:And I only say that because of extra reading that we know of where Threnody doesn't have an oath gate, which lets you get to which lets you easily get to Shadesmar. Like, you can actually just get to Shadesmar through other means, but the easier way is through an oath gate or a gateway of sorts, a perpendicularity. Sorry. Took over the conversation. Your thoughts on the shades, you wanted to know more about them.
Slava:Yeah. Because what I found interesting is, obviously, shades, demons, they're spiritual immaterial entities. Or as I started reading the story, that's an impression I got. And I'm like, alright. So these shades are immaterial spiritual beings.
Slava:They're obviously aware of their environment. They're absolutely they can send blood feet away, miles away maybe even, and they under they are in tune with their environment. And then you have this moment where William Ann falls through a shade. She's pushed through a shade by, one of the 4 people, red. But at the same time, there's a shade that grabs the elbow of silence in one of the little skirmishes they have.
Slava:So my curiosity stems like, alright. So either material or material can how they interact with the physical world and their cognitive abilities, specifically more details on how they can sense blood being spilled, whether it's 2 feet away or a 100 yards away. Somehow Mhmm. One shard senses the blood, but all the other shards sense it too. Right?
Slava:So the how they interact with each other and how they're able to because if you strike a fire, fine. Now there's a fire over there. Yeah. If you hear somebody running or see somebody running, k, I understand a shark can see that. Goodness.
Slava:Again, shard. Shade. Shade. Shade. I understand a shade can see that.
Slava:But how do they sense blood being spilled if they're not and then, like, looking at at the people? But then again, you get the feeling that they're always around in the forest, and there's many of them.
Jonathan:Yeah. The references to And they had I don't remember the exact sayings, but it's like green eyes
Slava:Red eyes.
Jonathan:Run, red eyes, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because you're you're more of a deep thinker. It's one of our one of the re one of the things we connect with for our friendship, and it's like there's a lot of presuppositional logic that takes place in world building of shades exist.
Jonathan:Here's how they function. Here's how we've seen them function. Is that everything that a shade is? No. We also see a shade at the end of the story that has additional cognition with the grandmother.
Jonathan:Right? Right. So he uses control.
Slava:Mhmm. And that's what prompted my thought because, obviously, when you before you get to that, it's obvious to the reader or at least it was to me. I'm like, okay. Spiritual beings, demons, I could go without knowing exactly how they sense the blood and stuff like that. I you don't have explain it to me for me to enjoy the story.
Slava:But when you get to that place where the grandma chooses to be in the closet, chooses to stay there for probably a decade at least, and knows who silence is, presumably.
Jonathan:Right.
Slava:Protects silence and is able to, again, either touch somebody or let them fall through them as we saw with the 2 little skirmishes before we meet the grandma. So there's this it's a complex creature for lack of better term. And I wanted the mystery of not knowing, but at the same time, the other side of me is I wanna know how these shades are able to grab people and be completely immaterial.
Jonathan:Yeah. That's interesting because they have to become corporeal.
Slava:They don't really have to. Right? You can as a immaterial thing, you can envelope somebody, and that could be a holding of sorts.
Jonathan:That's an option. Another option is that because of the principles of threnity, like, the natural laws of threnity, like, it's possible that their hold is, like, a gravitational, like, handoff of sort sort like Yeah.
Slava:It could be a lot
Jonathan:of things. And, frankly, we're probably overthinking it. But That's the point. Why we're here. That's the whole point.
Jonathan:We're here.
Slava:It's a side quest.
Jonathan:Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I didn't put a whole lot of thought into that.
Slava:See, so I listened to the book as I drove into work, and it's about an hour on a good day, it's about an hour to drive into work. And where I drive, it's actually just a clear shot because, you know, I take the express lanes in and think I'm the only fool in my in my area that takes the express lanes because you see hundreds of cars backed up for hours. I'm I'm the idiot that pays $25 to get there in in an hour instead
Jonathan:of 2 and
Slava:a half.
Jonathan:Worth it.
Slava:So I hit the express lane, and I'm able to listen to these things, and I'm constantly thinking through what's going on in the world. That's why I had to listen to this thing twice for me to And a couple more
Jonathan:additional podcasts.
Slava:Yeah. And some additional podcasts. But, that's where most of my overthinking happened or a lot of my thinking happened when I was listening is who these shades are. Because, obviously, if a shade gets you, you turn into a shade. Yep.
Slava:It's maybe it's not obvious, but that's it was obvious to me at least because there is descriptions of the bodies that the shades eat or destroy or kill that are turned into oblivion. Right?
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Slava:So that's one way a shade can kill. Does that mean there's a second way a shade can kill where it turns you into a shade? Or once your body is destroyed, withered up, whatever the shade does to you, does your spirit become a shade?
Jonathan:Right. So that gets into the spirit realm, which is why we need to read the Stormlight Archives because we don't get into the spirit realm. How do I just so many here. Sanderson's 20 books deep, bro. So
Slava:Yeah.
Jonathan:For the Cosmere as a whole, he just came out with another one January 1st because he's got 4 secret novels that are coming out this year, 3 of which are Cosmere related, and I just finished the first one. And it's more like a kind of a kid's fairy tale princess bride type thing. But you we don't really see the spirit realm except for some short stories, which are tied into an anthology called the unbounded arcanum, which is like stories from each of the different planets, just kinda like hodgepodge stories that he wanted to write. But there are these your spirit dissociates from your body when you die, and we get to see some of that in the background of a few different books, but it is curious that the shades still remain on threnody after the fact. So definitely some questions there that we'll hopefully, one day, learn answers to because he's not working on that as a book at the moment even though he's talked about wanting to.
Jonathan:Yeah. Anyway, we've been jabbering on unless you have some final thoughts.
Slava:Just a quick final thought. Maybe I've said this earlier in this podcast, but I definitely said it to you leading up to the podcast is I prefer short stories, both reading and writing, and for a lot of reasons, but I like this one. I thought it ended well because I don't need every story to have a happy ending and put a nice bow on it because who cares?
Jonathan:That's not how life works.
Slava:It's not how life works and okay with everybody dying, like, all the good guys die in a book. It's okay because if the story takes you that way, that's fine. Or what I appreciate about Stephen King in the couple lectures that I have seen by him is people ask him, where do you get your ideas, or how do you decide to finish? And he just he describes it. Yeah.
Slava:I'm gonna not do it injustice. But he goes, the story takes you. Right? It's not at some point as a writer, you understand. I created this world.
Slava:I created these characters based on those presuppositions in terms of presuppositions of the world and the story and the characters themselves. There is nothing to do but to kill off this character. There's nothing to do for this hero but to sacrifice him or herself for the greater good. There's nothing that can happen in this little, snippet of this world that I created that evil wins. Right?
Slava:It just happens, and I'm okay with a a story that has a bleak ending. But once in a while, you want the good guys to win. Right?
Jonathan:No. Right. Right. Because and I think this goes across all cultures and peoples and time groups, but every story and mythos that we tell, at some point, needs to have the good guys win. Like, as the story as the story goes long enough, Norse mythology, Odin loses an eye.
Jonathan:Okay? If the story stops there, you go, that's a bummer. But the story keeps going on and eventually becomes wise and etcetera, etcetera is like, and he ascend. Same thing. Horus.
Jonathan:Right? Like, Horus loses an eye. Same thing. You stop the story there. Like, oh, well, that's a bummer.
Jonathan:Like, he kinda sacrificed it for his dad, but okay. Or something. But the hero eventually has to win. That said, we read The Name of the Wind last year sometime.
Slava:Mhmm.
Jonathan:And I think that people forget because we're still waiting for book 3. This is my final thought. Speaking about stories that don't have good endings, the story starts for those who haven't read name of the wind, the story starts with a wonderful opener about the 3 silences and the way stone end, and it talks about the cut flower sound of a man who's patiently waiting to die. So that's the opener. It's also the closer of every book, but the story takes place in 2 time frames.
Jonathan:Present day, where our main character is a washed up forgotten legend who lives in a podunk town running an inn, and then he's regaling us with all of his life story that led to him becoming a legend. But the thing is it's not a it's not a happy story. Mhmm. We know the ending. The ending is staring us in the face, and I feel like people forget this.
Jonathan:The adventure that happens in the middle part is interesting. The journey, more interesting than the destination. We know the destination. It's like when you go see Titanic. You know the boat's gonna sink unless you're born pre, you know, 1914 or whatever.
Jonathan:I don't remember what year it was, but if you know? Yeah. The point is, like, you know the ending when you're going in, and and we love that sometimes. Have I got a story for you, which is the Stormliner Archives, Because there is harsh realities that take place in the Stormlight Archives that are very human. They're very dark, and Sanderson did a lot of research in his beta readers when he asked people with actual mental illnesses to read his book and give him insights on how to better write his characters, and I'll just leave that at that.
Jonathan:Thanks for coming to listen to Sidequest today, everybody. Stay tuned. We are going to be going through another 4 episodes of darker pieces short stories. We're looking at HP Lovecraft at some point, Stephen King, Neil Gaiman, and Edgar Allan Poe.
Slava:Some Neil Gaiman.
Jonathan:Yeah. Well
Slava:Neil Gaiman? We can play Neil Gaiman in the background this time.
Jonathan:Get sued for that even though we're nobody's
Slava:We're probably gonna get sued.
Jonathan:So Neil Gaiman
Slava:for HP Lovecraft, Stephen King, Neil Gaiman, and Edgar Allan Poe. No particular order. We'll figure it out. Maybe in that order, actually. We'll Maybe.
Slava:I'm reading off our list, and it's in that order.
Jonathan:Okay. Well, spoiler alert.
Slava:Spoiler alert. Yeah.
Jonathan:I don't mind spoiling books, but I don't wanna spoil our master plan.
Slava:Well, now we're gonna have to re redo the order in which we do it.
Jonathan:I'm looking forward to Lovecraft. I really Me too. Really liked his style. The the gothic writings are very different. Yeah.
Jonathan:Anyway, that's it for us today. Thanks for joining us on Sidequest.
Slava:Yep.