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Let us know what's up Can discipline truly be separated from punishment, especially when it comes to special needs education? Join us as we unravel this complex relationship, beginning with a humorous nod to the Miami Dolphins’ most recent game, before transitioning to a deeper conversation about guiding children toward positive behavior. We promise you'll discover how effective discipline focuses on growth and safety rather than punishment, using real-life stories and professional insights ...
Can discipline truly be separated from punishment, especially when it comes to special needs education? Join us as we unravel this complex relationship, beginning with a humorous nod to the Miami Dolphins’ most recent game, before transitioning to a deeper conversation about guiding children toward positive behavior. We promise you'll discover how effective discipline focuses on growth and safety rather than punishment, using real-life stories and professional insights from both home and school environments.
Explore the nuanced world of reinforcement and discipline with us, where we demystify negative reinforcement and its distinction from punishment. We share practical examples, like the strategic use of seatbelt warnings or classroom techniques, to illustrate how removing discomfort can lead to desired behaviors. It's all about setting priorities and understanding each child's unique challenges, and you'll hear how we balance kindness with the boundaries necessary for positive development. Through personal anecdotes, we reveal the thoughtful balance required to nurture healthy behaviors in children with special needs.
Finally, we delve into strategies for tackling behavioral challenges one step at a time, preventing overwhelm for both parents and teachers. Learn about the blend of positive and negative reinforcement tools—like sticker charts and treasure boxes—and the grace needed to foster good behavior. Our improved recording atmosphere even made a noticeable difference in our conversation, and we’re excited to share actionable advice on identifying and addressing behavioral priorities in a way that's manageable and effective. Let’s embrace the journey of guiding children towards better choices together.
Join us as we dive into the world of special education with two educators who have walked the same path as many of you. In addition to teaching in self-contained and collaborative settings, our hosts bring a unique perspective to the challenges and triumphs of raising a special needs child. From classroom strategies to heartfelt family moments, they offer practical advice, empathy, and a community of support. Discover how their personal experiences can shed light on your journey and gain valuable insights into navigating the complexities of special education both in and out of the classroom. Welcome to the tribe!
Speaker 1: welcome back to the
newest episode.
I don't know why I always say
welcome back.
So welcome back to life in the
life in the iep tribe.
This is the newest episode, um,
and, interesting enough, it
it's our second attempt at this
week's recording because, well,
if we're going to be honest, we
recorded an entire episode and
we thought it was doo-doo, so
we're giving it another try,
right, because that's what we do
.
I'm a little upset because
we're recording this on Sunday
and I just got done watching the
Dolphins lose again, and so
this should be an interesting
conversation.
I'm going to do my very best to
not be stuck in like a dark
headspace because I allow the
Dolphins to mess with me too
much.
I've been pulling for this team
since I was like six, seven
years old, and all they do is
play with my emotions.
It's like probably the most
abusive relationship I've ever
been in in my life, because I I
mean, I buy stuff, right, I wear
dolphins gear and what do they
give me?
Heartache, that is it.
Speaker 2: And finger nubs yeah,
I like to eat my fingers.
I mean, yeah, I like to eat my
fingers.
Speaker 1: I mean I don't like
to eat my fingers, but that's
kind of my response.
What's crazy is it doesn't even
matter.
It does not matter one bit what
happens on that television,
because you know what, at the
end of the day, I don't play for
the Dolphins, I don't get paid
by them, no, I don't have to do
any of that.
But I tell you what it's an
interesting sport.
So in the game that we watched
today there was a receiver for
the Dolphins that got hit with
like this head-to-head tackle
and the poor kid I mean they
took him out on a stretcher and
everything.
It was pretty crazy.
And of course they make all
these rules now to try to help
protect the players.
So, like you know, they can't
spear each other in the head.
It's going to be a penalty.
You can't grab somebody by the
collar of the shirt and pull
them down.
They have another rule where
it's like you can't do a what do
they say?
A hip drop tackle.
And they do all this because
they want to keep these guys
healthy and allow them to keep
playing the game and enjoy the
game.
But anytime you have groups of
people and you have uh,
competition or you know, you're
in a situation where you're
trying to progress and be the
best you can be at, whatever
your specific skill or
employment or whatever the case
may be.
Discipline has to be involved.
We have to be able to direct,
we need to tie our decision
making to something.
We can't necessarily just
respond based on feelings.
Discipline is very, very, very
important.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I'm willing to bet
there's not many people that
have heard me say this in the
last 15 seconds that would
disagree.
However, things get kind of
weird when we start talking
about discipline and we start
talking about our children.
It even gets a little more
weird when we talk about
discipline and our children that
might have special needs, and
so what we're going to do is
we're going to take the next
handful of minutes and we're
going to discuss what part
discipline plays in our
children's lives.
Now we can talk from a teacher
perspective as well as from a
parent perspective.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So tell me, Laura,
what place does discipline have
in the house of a child that has
special needs?
Speaker 2: What place does it
have?
Yeah, as we've discussed before
, there's not a whole lot of
things that Xander really really
likes or really really dislikes
, and so disciplining can be
difficult.
However, for him to progress
and to learn and grow, you have
to have discipline.
So you have to find that thing
that will make the difference
and help him learn and grow and
stay safe.
A lot of times, our children
with disabilities engage in
unsafe behavior, and so you have
to have that discipline and
we're going to get into.
There's many different forms
we're not just talking about
physical discipline, so there's
several different types, and so
you have to find out what works
best.
Speaker 1: Well, what we found
is that our kids, whether it be
in our house or in our classes,
they respond best to discomfort.
And now, of course, we would
not ever, like you know, try to
hurt a kid or anything like that
.
So when we talk about
discomfort, it is what can we do
to position this child in a way
that they just they don't like
the circumstance?
And every time I have this
conversation it reminds me of
this one student that we had
that I remember he was being
brought to the school and when
he got out of mom's vehicle he
started kind of acting all crazy
, and so I started counting to
the kid.
You know, kind of like we do
with ours All right, one, two,
and then the mom was like what
happens at three?
I said, watch this.
So I went over and I held the
boy's hand and that was it, and
you would have thought he was
just about to lose his mind.
Because it's like you're making
me stand still by holding my
hand.
I can't stand this, you are
making my life miserable.
And so then what happens is,
you know, you get down the road
and you start doing that
counting.
Well, the kid knows I don't
want to have to stand there and
hold Mr Curtis's hand.
That's boring, that's no fun,
and so they'll come over and
walk with you and now not to say
that worked 100% of the time.
However, what had happened is
this particular student learned
if I don't follow the rules,
then I have to do something I
don't want to do, something I
can't stand doing.
And so when we talk about
discipline, we're talking about,
you know, training these
children up in the way that they
should go, shaping them and
molding them.
Not I'm mad at you, so now I
want you to suffer, because
that's abuse Absolutely, it's
not discipline, absolutely.
We don't want them to do right
and wrong just based on whether
or not a teacher is there in the
room, but instead to learn that
I need to make safe decisions,
and when I make, safe decisions,
I have a pretty good time with
my life versus.
Speaker 2: If I make unsafe
decisions, then there's
consequences that I don't want
to have to deal with.
So what are some of the ways
that discipline can take place
in the home and in the classroom
?
Well, first, you have to know
and identify the needs of the
child, because, as we've talked
about before that they're all
different, they all respond to
different things and they have
different needs.
So you need to find out what it
is that they need, what they
understand, what they like, what
they don't like.
Speaker 1: So it really is
individualized, much like what
we talk about as far as what we
do in the school building, it's
individualized.
You really have to take the
time to get to know the student
and kind of find what makes them
tick.
Speaker 2: Right, right.
And then what we like to try
first is, of course, the
positive interventions.
You know we've talked about
before how, if we're trying to
make sure that a student is
something as simple as coming
and sitting on the floor to
engage in our whole group
activity and it's something that
they've been struggling with If
they come over and stand on the
carpet, then make a big deal
about it.
So that's one of the things
make a big deal about every step
towards the behavior that
you're wanting the child to see.
Speaker 1: Well, and it's good
that you mentioned steps.
Yeah, it's good that you
mentioned steps, because the one
thing that we have found is
that nothing changes overnight.
Like there's a process to help
a child get from one point to
the other, and like you're
saying so, you're talking about
okay, so I want this kid to come
down and sit on the carpet.
Well, is sitting on the carpet
really the goal?
Like, do we just want to see a
kid sit on a carpet?
Absolutely not.
We're working towards something
that will help direct him in
life.
Okay, well, at this time,
here's appropriate behavior.
Right, at this time, this is
how I listen to the instruction
given and then wait for
direction.
So it's not just a I just want
you to sit on a carpet, right,
because that's not going to help
a kid at all, but it does have
everything to do with helping
them make those good choices.
Speaker 2: I've encountered some
students that don't like to sit
on the floor, and so not only
do you reward them for the good
choices they make, but you also
give them choices good choices
that you also they make, but you
also give them choices Okay,
you can sit.
You know, a lot of times I'll
say, all right, you can sit on
the blue carpet or you can sit
in the blue chair, because
they're still following
directions, they're still facing
the where I want them to face,
where the learning is going to
happen.
But if they really have an
aversion to sitting on the floor
, then they're not uncomfortable
, and so that positive praise
and reinforcement and giving
them options and sometimes the
kids don't respond to the
positive praise and there's been
times where it's like, okay, so
look at you, you walked right
on over here and found a seat so
you might hand them a Skittle
or a cheese ball or sometimes a
little sticker.
So finding those, so they know
what they're supposed to be
doing, is important.
Speaker 1: So let me ask this
question what if so?
So what if you have a student?
That is, what if you have a
student that you said you want
to give them?
Maybe they just don't want to
sit, maybe that's a big deal for
them, and so you might look for
a different option, right,
right, like maybe.
Well, instead of sitting here,
maybe they can stand in this
particular area, or you know,
whatever the case may be.
So my question is so what about
being fair?
Is it fair to let this kid
stand where all the other kids
have to sit?
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Explain that to me.
Speaker 2: Okay.
So in our house and as our
family, and as well as our
classrooms, we do what is fair.
However, a lot of our kids feel
like fair is equal.
We don't necessarily do equal
things, because equal is getting
the same thing as everybody
else, whereas fair is getting
what they each child needs to be
successful, or each individual
needs to be successful.
So it may mean that so-and-so
is permitted to walk back and
forth at the back of the carpet,
while others, who we know do
not have an inversion of sitting
on the carpet, are not allowed
to.
But if this individual is
pacing back and forth but
they're also engaging, then
that's what's fair for them.
If I make them sit on the
carpet or sit in a chair on the
carpet or sit in a chair, it
could be something that's
painful for them sensory-wise
and they will be focusing more
on that or getting upset and
then all learning ceases.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we got to be
.
We have to be fair, All right.
So we talked a little bit about
the positive reinforcers.
So anytime you have a positive,
there's always a negative.
So what is a negative
reinforcement?
Speaker 2: A negative
reinforcement is when you take,
take away something, but not
necessarily that's different
than punishment, so you're going
to take away that thing.
That's uncomfortable.
So, like we were saying, if the
child does not want to sit down
and I make him sit down, then
when I allow him to walk, that's
negative reinforcement because
I'm taking away that
uncomfortable aspect of the
directive and reinforcing the
behavior that I want.
Speaker 1: So negative
reinforcers are not the same as
punishment, correct Right.
So one of the things I know
that I had an instructor tell us
is it's very similar to the
like that beeping noise that
you'll get in the car if you
don't put your seatbelt on Right
.
So the seatbelt beeps, beeps,
beeps, beeps.
Put the seatbelt on, noise
stops.
Right so there's a negative
reinforcer by making this
decision, that something's being
taken away to make the
experience better for the child.
One example that might be
something like you know little
Jimmy had a great day today.
He followed the rules.
So you know what Little Jimmy
didn't have to do homework.
Tonight we're not sending
homework home right.
So it's not punishment and
negative reinforcement is not
the same thing.
So, but what was?
What would something like that
look like in the classroom
setting or or even the home
setting with our, with our
children that have special needs
?
Speaker 2: The negative
reinforcement.
Yeah, I have a student that has
a work inversion.
We have a student that does not
like to complete tasks and one
of the things that they really
do not like is having to cut and
then so if we go and cut the
pieces for him and present it to
him already cut out, he will
independently complete his work.
So we're taking that piece that
he really does not like because
in the grand scheme that part's
not that important.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: And so that he's
going to fight back if we try to
make him do that.
But if the end game is that he
completes his work, then we're
taking away the part that's
uncomfortable for him.
Speaker 1: so he still completes
his work, it's uncomfortable
for him, so he still completes
his work, and you made a comment
that I think is really
important too.
Is that looking at in the grand
scheme, what is it that we want
to accomplish?
So I know one of the things and
we'll probably touch on this a
little bit later is what hill
are we willing to die on, right?
What are the things that we are
going to?
You know, tie down to that.
This is important.
You know this has to be done
Because, like you said, if the
kid doesn't cut the paper
himself, but by presenting the
pieces and the student takes
those and completes the work,
that's what we're looking for,
right, right, we want to see
them complete a task.
We want to see them, and so and
there's going to be all kinds of
different opinions and
perspectives on what that looks
like, but it really is important
as parents, as teachers, as
anybody that may work in the
education system, because again
we've got a growing population.
You know the number of students
that receive services under
special education.
Speaker 2: Or even other family
members of you.
Know the children with
disabilities too, because
sometimes you have family
members that believe that this
child should be doing this or
this child should be doing that.
So it's important to talk about
what do we want them to do,
what do we find important and
what are we willing to overlook.
Speaker 1: Well, I know that
just in our home there's
numerous stories, but one in
particular that comes to my mind
was, you know, early on in our
relationship when Xander and
Brandon they were just little
tykes then and we're staying
with you and I don't know if I
was at school or work or
something, but you want to go
ahead and tell that story
Because I think you know the
story I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: I think I do.
Yeah, go ahead.
So at that time I think Xander
was a little bit of a screen
fiend and he liked to watch
movies.
He liked to be on a computer
and he would want to watch any
screen that he could get.
Speaker 1: At the same time.
Speaker 2: Yes, and so he was
sitting at the table and he had
a computer and a portable DVD
player, and this is before.
I think we had done a lot of
research into the harms of
allowing that.
And one thing he liked to do was
he would watch a scene and back
it up and watch the scene and
back it up.
And so he already had those two
and his brother was in the
living room on the PlayStation.
Well, he decided he also wanted
to watch a movie on that
PlayStation.
And I told him no, and he did
not like that.
And so he started to get upset
and Brandon, being the sweet big
brother he is, was like oh,
it's okay, I'm done, he can have
it.
And I said well, that's great
that you're done, and if you
don't want to play, that's fine,
but he's still not going to get
to watch the movie on this.
He has two things already that
he has, and so you can.
If you don't want to play,
that's fine, but he's still not
going to get it.
So go ahead and decide what you
want.
And so I believe that was the
time that Xander got so mad at
me.
He proceeded to walk into the
other room and vomited all over
the floor.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
So he walked from a tile floor,
wood floor, to a carpeted floor
and then threw up on purpose.
Yes, good times.
But and I have you tell that
story because there are going to
be people who know your family
or are part of your family that
they want to be kind, and that's
good.
But by allowing, by allowing
xander to just do whatever he
wants to does not help him
progress in his life.
As a matter of fact, what
you're doing is you're building
this, this perspective of you
know that he can just do and get
whatever he wants.
Oh well, he has autism.
So right you know, just let him
do whatever because he can't
help it, right?
And what we have found is that
is definitely not the case.
You know, we've had the
privilege of teaching some
fantastic kids over the last
golly.
I mean you've been in the
school system for much longer
than I have.
I mean you've been in the
school system for much longer
than I have.
But what we have found is that
there's very few kids that we
have come into contact with
whose negative behavior is a
direct reflection of their
disability.
Right, that there's usually a
combination going on on, and
oftentimes what we see is what
you experienced with with xander
is that we, we don't want to
rock the boat, we want to keep
our kids happy and we may have
the best intentions, but then,
but we, we grow monsters when we
do that, when we don't teach
them discipline, when we don't
teach them right and wrong, when
, when we don't teach them the
importance of following
directions, and so that's kind
of.
One of the things that we want
to make really clear in this
conversation is that every kid,
I can almost say with 100%
certainty that your child can
learn to do the right thing, can
learn to be respectful, can
learn to engage with people in a
way that is acceptable.
Speaker 2: Right and I think a
lot of misconceptions that we
found with people in Zander I
think that there's other people
that have the same
misconceptions is that because
they have a disability, they
don't understand what they're
doing.
And a lot of times they have
gotten that manipulation down
and they do understand what
they're doing.
And so I think that's that
conversation I had to have with
Brandon afterwards and I told
him I appreciated him doing what
he thought was being the kind
big brother and I wasn't just
trying to be mean.
But if I allowed Xander to just
do what he wanted and have
everything he wanted, I was
enabling that negative and
undesired behavior and as he
grew it would do nothing for him
but get him in trouble.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've talked
about positive reinforcers,
negative reinforcement.
And then here's the one that,
like nobody likes to talk about,
and I get it is punishment.
Now, what is punishment?
Speaker 2: It is according to
our notes here.
We had to make notes because we
found we were just rambling
sometimes.
Yeah, so it's discouraging
undesired behavior by providing
negative consequences when the
behavior occurs.
Speaker 1: Okay.
So what this does not
necessarily mean is it does not
mean that punishment is
inflicting physical pain.
A lot of people have different
ideas on whether that's
acceptable or not, and that
conversation we're not even
going to have right now.
But what we do want to discuss
is the importance of discomfort
and we started talking about
this at the beginning and that
is you and putting the children
in a position where they realize
that this I don't want to do
this.
Putting together the when I make
this type of choice, these are
the repercussions, right?
I mean, we've got students that
you know, things like missing
out on certain free times, right
, like not you know, okay, okay,
so you weren't following the
directions today, um, you've had
multiple opportunities to do so
and because of this we're not
going to be.
We can't allow you to play with
your race car or have some
computer time, or right, and so
we remove things, because we've
learned that I'll quote my dad
People don't change when they
see the light.
They change when they feel hate
.
That's pretty good, wasn't it?
I should start doing some
voiceover work.
I should start doing some
voiceover work, but no, but
there's an awful lot of truth to
that.
Is that the times that we learn
the most.
I mean, I look at my own life.
It was pain that caused me to
realize this was not a good
choice.
Discomfort, this was not a good
choice.
Oh, look like, I have no money.
I have no money, I have no job.
I have no house.
I have no right, these
different things that made me go
.
I don't want to live like this
anymore.
Right, and so the same concept
can be worked out with our
students, with our children, and
that when we make decisions
that are harmful, there's going
to be consequences.
We are going to be
uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: I remember one of the
things that we used with Xander
was we had his sticker chart.
Oh, yeah.
And it was, you know, and he
made the good choice because he
was going through some things
and we would give him a sticker
and then, at the end of whatever
chosen period, there was a
reward.
And at that time it was
typically a movie which we had
already scaled that way back,
movie which we had already
scaled that way back.
But, you know, it got to the
point where he understood what
putting that sticker on or
taking the sticker off meant
that he, if he didn't get to
this point by making these
decisions, that he was not going
to get that movie at that time,
that movie at that time.
Speaker 1: Well, and what we've
learned is not effective is,
from the standpoint of
punishment, not giving any grace
.
Speaker 2: Oh right.
Speaker 1: Right, so so
realistic expectation.
I can remember when I was in
kindergarten I think it was in
this class that I was in we had
these, we, we built these little
boxes.
Well, we didn't build them,
they were like milk cartons that
were cut, but they were little
treasure boxes.
And so every day, at the end of
the day, the teacher would give
us you know, if we made the
right decision, we got like a
gold coin or but that that and
so then at the end of the week,
if you had four gold coins would
have been five.
On friday, you, you got this.
Like you got to go to this
treasure chest and pick out
something cool.
Well, I never had that.
Like, by tuesday, I've lost a
gold coin already.
Like, in particular, I think I
think I got a boot or something
like that.
I don't remember what they stood
for, but what I do remember is
thinking, well, there's no
chance for me to do this, and
who cares?
Like, why am I going to bust my
rear end to be good?
Well, you should be good just
because you're supposed to be
good?
Okay, cool, but I'm right, okay
so, but we found too that in in
dealing with our students, that
there has to be, there has to
be grace.
Right, there has to be.
You know, if you've got six
opportunities during the course
of the day to earn this prize,
okay, well, you need four, right
, right, because you know what I
mean.
I've been on this planet for
over 47 years and I constantly
make poor choices, like when I
say constantly, I mean over the
course of my life.
I might go days where I, hey, I
did pretty well today, right,
but typically there's going to
be something at some point in
the day where I think to myself
wow, that was just stupid.
Speaker 2: Right, I shouldn't
have done that, or I shouldn't
have said that.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: And so if we our
children, are smart enough to
figure that out, that if okay.
So during my first block I blew
it, so I did not get to move my
car around the track.
Then I have to move it every
time I move classes.
So if I didn't do it this time
then I'm not going to earn it
for the rest of the day.
So I'm just going to do what I
want and it makes sense.
But if they know that, hey,
it's okay.
So you struggled during this
class and it's okay because
you'll have another chance,
let's go on to this one and you
have another chance to earn your
reward.
You still can earn your reward
because they figure that out Yep
True story.
Speaker 1: So negative
reinforcers, positive
reinforcers, punishment, grace,
grace, right has to all be in
there, um, and so what is the?
I think we've kind of already
answered this, but what is the
best approach?
Speaker 2: Best approach?
Yes, combining them all.
Speaker 1: The best approach is
yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, there's you
giving them those that positive
reinforcement and negative
reinforcement, and also when
necessarily having consequences.
So it has to be a balance, a
consistent balance, excuse me
for it to be beneficial.
Speaker 1: Right, and I think it
goes back to what we opened
with, and that is, you got to
look at the individual and see
what is going to help motivate
them the best.
Because, again, at the end of
the day, it's not about just
doing like do what I tell you to
do, it's let's learn positive,
healthy behavior.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So when I'm older,
I'm carrying that same idea.
So, real quick, at the very end
of this, Mrs Curtis, what is
something that we could tell a
parent that they may have, or
even a teacher they may have, a
student, they may have a child
that has multiple behavior
issues trashes the room he or
she punches holes in the walls
he or she does, and there's this
long list of things that are
destructive or are negative
behavior.
How in the world does a parent
or a teacher address a child
that has all of these issues?
Because it can be overwhelming
All of these issues, because it
can be overwhelming.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, you
pick one.
Pick one at a time, pick the one
that I mean.
You can go either way.
You can either pick the one
that's the most challenging,
that you really feel that the
child needs to work on first,
that the child needs to work on
first, or you can maybe pick the
one that the child is going to
be able to extinguish first,
thereby receiving a lot of
praise and positive
reinforcement and also probably
some negative reinforcement,
because if they're not doing
this behavior anymore, they're
not receiving consequences for
it, and so if you do something
that seems like is a little
easier to get rid of, then they
I think I feel that they will
make that quarter correlation
and then you work, work on the
next one and, yeah, you might
have to deal with this one that
you really struggle with, but
it'll get there or if you really
just cannot and it's not safe,
then absolutely go for that one
first.
So I think, once again, that
goes back to identifying the
needs of the student and the
needs of the class or the needs
of the household.
But pick one, because if you
try to work on multiple
behaviors, it's going to get
hard and confusing.
Speaker 1: For everybody
involved.
Yeah, so with that, I think
we're going to wrap up this
episode.
I'm certainly happy that we
trashed the other one and did
this one instead.
I think our conversation was
much better.
Speaker 2: We're also not coming
at this after a day of work in
the middle of the week.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, so that
was the point I was going to
make, is that?
Well, we're recording on a
Sunday, so outside of the
Dolphins game, it's been a good
day.
Yes, all right.
So, yep, we'll wrap that up for
now and we'll talk to you next
time.