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The Faculty Chronicles (TFC) podcast, sponsored by the Touro Center for Excellence in Teaching and Learning (CETL), is about building community, connection, and conversation. It will bring to life the stories behind the great works of Touro faculty, across disciplines in all our schools, focusing on classroom innovation in teaching and learning, science, business, medicine, education, wellness and more.
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Unknown
Hello, everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Faculty Chronicles sponsored by the Tara Center of Excellence in Teaching and Learning. I'm Elizabeth Rooney, co-host of this podcast from Victoria College of Pharmacy in New York.
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today, we have Dr. Stacey Fanning, the best of the guest. Dr. Fanning is an associate professor with the Tara College of Osteopathic Medicine in Harlem.
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She's also the chair of the Department of Basic Biomedical Sciences. She's the assistant dean of research and assistant director of the master's program at Oracle. She's also active with the Torah Comm, Student Labs and organization, and also leads the near Peer mentoring program, which bears the undergraduate and professional students. Welcome to the podcast. Dr. Fay Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
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I'm so excited to be here today.
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Unknown
tell us a little bit about your journey at oral, like where you started, how you started, where you started. Amber, are you now? Sure,
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I came to Touro in
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2014 as an assistant professor of immunology
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and the course director for immunology.
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So I've been
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running the whole immunology curriculum here and then,
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just gradually got myself interested
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and invested in some other programs.
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I would say I probably started heavily with our admissions program, became the chair of the admissions
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committee
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did a lot of work there, and then gradually started getting more involved in student clubs,
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student
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mentoring activities,
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just kept going with the titles,
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got involved in our master's program where now
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I act as assistant director. I help
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with admissions in that program, help with student advisement in that program.
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Then I became the chair of the Basic Science Department, and then most recently, just this summer, I was appointed as the Assistant Dean of Research. So that's my newest journey and my newest task, trying to to get used to that position and everything that it entails.
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Unknown
congratulations on the new roles that you have taken. And, you know, looks like you have been doing a lot in the college, which also means that you have been working a lot with the students and the student services.
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Unknown
So the one thing that we hear from students is the workload or the content overload for that, or teaching them too much or giving them too much work.
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Unknown
Now, since you work a lot with students and students services, what have you been observing about any of these things that students talk about? Yeah. So I think while this is definitely become a problem globally in education, it's been particularly evident in medical education because if you just think about what we have learned in the field of science and medicine, it just continues to keep growing and keep increasing.
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Unknown
We keep learning more about the ways the human body works. We keep developing new technologies and new medicines, and these are all things that now we require students to learn when they're in medical school. But the amount of time that they have to learn it has not changed the structure of medical education. And if anything, there's a big push in some schools to have more early entry into the clinical years and shorten the didactic years, which just adds extra stress
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overload on the students because now we're acquiring so much more of them.
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this really has been evident, like I said in our program, I also think just the
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environment is with things like social media where attention spans across the board are decreasing. Most of us have experienced that ourselves and with younger generations you see it in particular, the content they consume is in short bursts.
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They get immediate gratification. So again, that's all going to impact their ability to take in a lot of content and curriculum at once. So that's definitely been a problem for us. In addition, with a lot of programs, there's high state exams that are required. There's a competitive nature for medical programs. The competitive nature of residency puts an extra emphasis on performance and grading.
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So that's definitely been a big problem that I've seen with our medical students.
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Unknown
Got it.
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now when we
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take it out of the med school and we'd be talking about the regular higher education by the undergraduate level
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or any of the other professional programs.
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Have you heard or have you read the same kind of stress and content overload
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or the stress on exam performance happening in those fields still?
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Unknown
Yeah, absolutely.
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There's definitely across the board, like I said, globally, just a lot of stress and overload on students. They more expected of them. They put more pressure on themselves. You know, medical school is not the only thing that's competitive. They come out of college with sometimes huge debt and now they're looking for jobs. They're looking for jobs that are going to pay well.
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So they want to make themselves the most attractive candidate for their jobs. And the best way they probably know how to do that is by showing really high performance, really great grades in their undergraduate programs.
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they're definitely feeling it at all levels.
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So based again, on your experience and what have been reading and what you have been hearing, is there any or can there be a potential solution for reducing the stress or taking away the pressure from this performance?
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And I think it's coming to that how good you can perform on an exam. So is there anything that we can do to reduce this? Yeah. So the way we structure and thinking about the way that we structure our classes and how students are assessed in those classes is going to be really important. I think we need to foster an environment where we're not so much focusing on the outcomes, but really focusing on the learning experience and really fostering that genuine intellectual curiosity.
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I find that a lot of students are losing that the whole joy of learning, being there to actually learn and be curious about things and ask questions without worrying about what the outcome is going to be. So I think taking that approach to the classroom and to student learning is going to be really important and devising ways and strategies for both the faculty and the students to assess themselves because assessment is important.
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But a way to do that, that's going to focus more on the learning process and learning and growth and and feedback rather than something like a numerical grade.
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Unknown
so are we talking about I'm grading exams, you know, like I was saying that maybe maybe we should assess them in a way where it is not a graded exam that they're used to. Right? So we are not talking about A, B, C grades, but maybe they surpass
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or teach mastery. Is that what we are talking about?
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Unknown
Yes. So there has been this big discussion in the education field recently about this concept that's referred to as grading. I don't know that there's any definitive definition of what grading is,
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but what the concept of grading allows for is the shift shifting of the focus away from the outcomes and more to the process. So we're again looking at the students improvement and growth over the course of the semester, the course, rather than just a final outcome depicted by a numerical value.
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That in and of itself has very little meaning.
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on grading can be a way
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for us to implement
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this type of learning experience that's going to be more beneficial for the student and allow them to get a better assessment of what they know, what they don't know. So
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when I explain
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the benefits of
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upgrading to me, I think of an example where you have a student who starts out in a course and say it's a course that's challenging for them.
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Unknown
Maybe it's content that they're not familiar with and so they start off a little bit on shaky ground. Maybe first exam comes around, they get 70%, maybe lower. But throughout the course of the semester, they work hard. They see the professor do office hours. They put in the work. So by the end of the semester now, their assessment scores are much higher.
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Unknown
Maybe they're receiving in the A's 90%, 95%. But by traditional grading standards now, when you might take those grades, average them together, the students receiving a B in the course. So is that B really reflective of the students learning and growth throughout the course? And if you compare that student maybe to another student who from the get go was scoring in the nineties, you know, maybe they just got it right away scored in the nineties and they got an A But if we think about it who really demonstrated more learning in that course.
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Unknown
Right. So the grades aren't always going to be reflective of that process which is really what I think we should be looking at.
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Unknown
I think by rethinking the way that we're assessing students and incorporate adding
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things like on grading into the course, we can get more value out of
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the whole process.
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Unknown
that's a very interesting concept,
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Unknown
focusing on students growth, actually, instead of just the pure outcome, but in a practical way, how can you actually do it? So can you give us an example of
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Unknown
how it may actually work? Right. So I think when it comes to different models of grading,
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the sky's the limit. Faculty can be creative. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, You know, you don't have to go into a course saying, I'm not going to grade you.
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Unknown
Just we'll talk, we'll try to ask you to do some things. And at the end everybody gets an A, because that's also not beneficial, right? Students do need to be assessed. They need to receive feedback.
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Unknown
The feedback is
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not only beneficial in the assessment are only beneficial for the students. They're beneficial for the faculty as well, because the faculty need to know if they're doing a good job or not.
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So
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still need to
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assess students. But depending upon the course, the content, the number of students in the course is really going to impact how much a faculty can maybe incorporate these
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different models
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strategies into their
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classroom. So I think what's important to remember and maybe clear up a misconception is that ultimately for every course that a student takes at the higher level, when that course culminates, they need to have a grade on their transcripts.
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Unknown
So by saying of courses on graded, it doesn't mean that at the end there's not going to be a great link to it. There's still going to be a great link to it. But the information that you use to attain that grade is what we can change and vary. So,
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if faculty want to fully embrace
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an ungraded course, they still need to have
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expectations, learning goals that they set for the students.
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Unknown
Make sure the students are clear on what's expected of them. And then either the faculty is providing frequent feedback on how the students are meeting those goals throughout the semester, or in some cases the students are self assessing. So the faculty lays out the goals and asks the students themselves to assess how they're meeting those goals.
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Unknown
And
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Unknown
from what I've read, I've I've never implemented that myself.
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Unknown
But from what I've read, a lot of faculty have been very successful with that and have been really happy with how students self assess. I think there's a quick assumption to say all students are going to give themselves A's, but when you actually implement that, that's not the case. And oftentimes students end up being harder on themselves when you give them that opportunity to
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self-reflect.
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So
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Unknown
I think there's multiple ways that you can you can incorporate this into a classroom,
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Unknown
even if it's just deciding to make certain select assignments
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ungraded or, you know, so get some more on
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obtaining certain expectations
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Unknown
setting certain standards and evaluating and providing feedback in that manner rather than linking it to a hard numerical or hard letter grade.
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Unknown
Beautiful, beautiful. So it really needs some amount of creativity from the faculty side, depending on the course and their content. And that kind of students who are in the course. Maybe, maybe it is not the best for the first year students, but maybe it may work perfect with the finally students who already have gone through a lot of these things.
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Unknown
Now, though, we talked about all the advantages of already, right? I'm sure it also comes with its own challenges when you decide to do I'm ready. So can you talk a little bit about what can be some of the some of the challenges that the faculty should be prepared for if they decide to take the step of I'm grading,
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Unknown
I think some of the biggest challenges for faculty are
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maybe time and resources, right? So if you're dealing with a larger class,
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can be much harder to provide the same feedback
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on ungraded
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assignments or activities.
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Unknown
So for example, in our medical school class, we have 135 students. So we frequently talk about what are some other assessments that we can
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assign students that are going to foster more creative thinking, focus more on the process, rather
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than the outcome, give students feedback.
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Unknown
But as the sole professor in a class of 135, there is no physical way that I could sit with all those students and give them feedback. So. So that can definitely be a challenge. And again, relying more on self assessment or even peer review, having the students
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Unknown
evaluate each other's work is is a way that you can work around that.
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Unknown
And something that we've discussed
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here in our program.
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Unknown
One of the other struggles that I've had with
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Unknown
some of my switch to on grading is
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we work in a flipped classroom model where our videos are recorded. Students watch on their own time. Historically, we would then have students come into the classroom and we would do some formative assessment in the form of eye clickers.
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Unknown
And those eye clickers were attached to a 10% grade
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of the course.
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we found that students were coming to get the points and weren't really engaged in the learning process. They would just be asking their neighbors, What's the right answer? I just want to get my point so I can make sure I have that extra 10% at the end of the semester.
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Unknown
It also wasn't good for the faculty because we
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would typically see 90
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100% of the students answering correctly. So I see that. I think everybody understands the concept.
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Unknown
I'm going to move on when in reality that wasn't the case. So we decided to flip this to a more ungraded model. So we
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Unknown
in our class highlighted no points linked to the session.
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Unknown
You come in, we're still going to do the same types of questions, work through them the same exact way, but you're not getting any points for it. That's it doesn't count. This led to much better engagement. Students were more open to discuss. They were more comfortable asking questions. They were more comfortable working through the question on their own and attempting an answer whether it was right or wrong.
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Unknown
So that also gave us in the classroom a better feel for how well the material was being absorbed and conveyed. Now, I typically see 60 to 70% of the class answering correctly on some questions. So now I can pause and say, okay, clearly that, you know, there are some of you who still aren't getting this. I can see, you know, which answer choice they're choosing go into a further explanation.
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Unknown
So I definitely think as part of the learning process, it's made the classroom a lot more creative and open to discussion. The downside is, is that we've lost a lot of attendance. So now that students aren't getting any points from coming to class and we don't have any required attendance for our program, our our attendance has dipped down quite a bit.
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Unknown
So, you know, we still need to work on other ways to motivate students to come into the classroom. So so that could be problematic. I think one of the other problems that we have experienced and it could be a problem in some other programs as well, is when different courses have different models of grading, it's going to cause students to put certain emphasis on probably the courses where they're getting an actual grade more.
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Unknown
So we had an issue where a few of our clinical skills courses wanted to go pass fail. They thought that, you know, most students do well in their course. It was just a better model for their course. But we still had a lot of courses that had traditional A-B-C grades, you know, with numbers attached to those. And we found pretty quickly that the performance in those pass fail classes actually started to dip dramatically because now students weren't gunning for an A, they just had a pass.
00:18:49:17 - 00:19:09:12
Unknown
So they were putting way less time and effort into those courses and focusing on the courses where they were going to get in on that transcript. And that was going to carry more weight moving forward. So that's definitely been problematic. And I could envision in courses that are using more ungraded
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Unknown
activities that students might decide to spend less time on that coursework, put in less effort, which ultimately doesn't benefit them, but I don't think they see that up front.
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Unknown
So those are definitely some of the challenges and disadvantages that have
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come with this shift and it's progress. You know, it's constantly working, coming up with new ideas and finding a balance that works for your program and works for your course.
00:19:39:05 - 00:19:40:10
Unknown
Wow.
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Unknown
so how do you find that balance? You know, it almost seems like there needs to be a cultural shift from the students side.
00:19:49:11 - 00:20:10:15
Unknown
Why they coming to college or even at the college level? Because most of the courses have to be offered in the same way there, as you said student speak, it goes over the other. So how do we strike this balance? Do you think it may need more faculty development activities or seminars, or is this something that has to come down from the academy level,
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from the professional organization level?
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Unknown
Where do you think this may
00:20:14:24 - 00:20:24:12
Unknown
well, how do you think it may help to make this actually work out? Yeah. I mean, I think it starts just with conversations among faculty.
00:20:24:12 - 00:20:29:12
Unknown
Just sharing ideas with faculty can be hugely beneficial.
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Unknown
things I've learned so many things just by talking to faculty in my program and in other programs, things that I just had never thought of, never experienced.
00:20:38:02 - 00:20:47:21
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And, you know, you just have a conversation and a lot it's a good idea. You know, let me try that. So I think definitely open conversation, definitely, you know, faculty development
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is going to be useful.
00:20:48:19 - 00:20:56:08
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do think that having also a shift from the student and is really important
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that
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have yet to have any solutions for,
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because
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does seem to be
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a huge cultural shift.
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Unknown
I don't know if it has to do with generations, you know, this younger generations just have different experiences that lead them to,
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Unknown
have different ways that they think about things. So
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but I do think really
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trying to shift the focus with the students on what's
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the
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overall goal is of the educational journey.
00:21:28:24 - 00:21:39:00
Unknown
I try every every semester I begin my first class by telling students I am not here to teach you how to pass your board exams.
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Unknown
I'm here to teach you how to be a doctor. So I'm teaching you everything that you might need to know. You cannot have a patient who walks in your office and you say, I don't know that that that wasn't on my boards. So, you know, that is the attitude that you need to have. You are here to learn to be the best doctor that you're here for.
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Unknown
And the same should go for, you know, any program, any student you're you're there to learn and use that knowledge to make you successful in whatever ways you want to be successful. And the only way to do that is,
00:22:14:18 - 00:22:26:17
Unknown
through really critical thinking, active learning. I've always been a big fan of the the phrase, you know,
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teach me
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how to learn, not what to learn.
00:22:30:03 - 00:23:00:17
Unknown
I think that really needs to be the focus from both ends of the spectrum, both the educators and the students. And I think at Toro, we really have a great opportunity to kind of do that because as you said, you have the near peer program where you collaborate between undergraduate and professional students. Toro Being a really big university, we have a lot of undergraduate programs and many of our students from the undergraduate program end up in a professional program, right?
00:23:00:19 - 00:23:25:15
Unknown
So maybe this is a place where we can have collaborations with a faculty at the undergraduate level at trying this idea, because if they if they if their cultural shift happens from the time they're in college that I'm in here to learn how to learn and not what to learn. And then when they come to a med school or a pharmacy school or a graduate school of business, it doesn't matter.
00:23:25:16 - 00:23:48:23
Unknown
They know this is what they're here for, Right? So. So are you open to the idea of collaborating with others from across Victoria University to try this out, to see how can we. I'm great and how can we make how can we find that balance right between the students and faculty and of course, so that this becomes a creative process and not something, you know, we struggle with.
00:23:48:23 - 00:24:14:10
Unknown
And finally we say, you know what, I don't want to deal with this anymore. So are you are you open to the idea of collaborating with other Toro faculty to make this work? Yes, absolutely. We are very lucky to be at an institution that has such a large footprint in all areas and a faculty with so many diverse experiences that I definitely would love to collaborate on.
00:24:14:10 - 00:24:45:23
Unknown
Faculty think some ideas, pilot some things, and then share it with the faculty as a whole. That's that's how we're going to ourselves. Learn and grow to become better educators. So absolutely perfect. So to the audience, if you're listening to this and you think that this is something that you thought you wanted to do, here we have Dr. Fanning from the Toro College of Osteopathic Medicine in Harlem who has added an aide who has some good ideas about it.
00:24:45:23 - 00:25:14:05
Unknown
And she would like to collaborate with you to try this idea out. Well, thank you, Dr. Fanning, for that beautiful talk. I think this is really good to look at students and see how we can actually enrich their student life and education experience and not just focus on the assessment on the outcome of what happens. The journey is the journey should be equally beautiful and rewarding as the outcome too.
00:25:14:05 - 00:25:34:22
Unknown
So thank you so much for that wonderful chalk that you gave to the audience today. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you everybody, for listening. And I'm looking forward to working with my colleagues and coming up with some new ideas. Awesome. Well, thank you to all our listeners. Signing off is Elizabeth Mooney, your podcast co-host.
00:25:34:24 - 00:25:37:22
Unknown
And in the next episode,
00:25:37:22 - 00:26:20:02
Unknown
Thank you for tuning in to the Faculty Chronicles TFC Turtles Podcast featuring the projects and work of faculty throughout the Turtle College and University system. TMC is sponsored by the Office of the Provost and Kettl, the Center for Excellence in Teaching and Learning. We hope you like what you heard and will keep listening. So join us next time on The Faculty Chronicles as we highlight and share faculty achievements that build community connection and continuous conversation.