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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Silvan (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome to the long game, a heated rivalry podcast. My name is Sylvan and I'm joined with Declan. And today we're going to be breaking down episode four of heated rivalry called Rose. Now, just as a recap, this episode marks a actually a two year span from 2014 to 2016. So here we see Shane win two cups back to back. We also see
the infamous visit to Ilya's home and we also get the introduction to Rose, a different character and where Shane starts a very public relationship with. Now, I wanted to start with how this opens up Declan because we do see a lot before they even open up the credits. So you see what happens in the off season between both these characters where they're training and they're sexting each other still, but
Declan (00:38)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (00:56)
there's a lot of time that passes through.
So I'm curious as to how this is managed in the book, Steklin, because it's really fast paced. know, we get the span of these two years before the opening credits have even started, really. And, you know, there's this focus on what happens in the off season for both these characters.
Declan (01:15)
So in the book, you know, you have the privilege of being able to just like write time passing. So you can and I think it's very similar in this. It's not actually kind of like the way Jacob Tierney's done it. He's done this sort of montage that gives this illusion of time passing and also shows that these two are still doing this and it's been going on for a while. Now in the book, I think.
It's not really even more than like a few pages. It's just sort of thrown in there. And the important elements of the relationship are obviously, you know, kept a central focus because that's going to help with the pacing. I think Jacob Tiner has done sort of the same thing where he's kept it very condensed and sort of kept that time period condensed and like a short amount of scenes so that it's not like dragged out and it's not overly boring or overly repetitive. And so he's just taken a sort of creative way of showing that sort of time passage from the book.
in a way that sort of translates really nicely to TV.
Silvan (02:12)
think you're right, and I think that condensation has really sort of cemented sort of the relationship as well, because how much can you really sex someone before one person loses interest? Speaking of, you know, from previous experience, perhaps.
Declan (02:18)
Bye bye.
Yeah.
It's the fact
that it's still going on. It's like at this point, this is just like kind of ridiculous how long this has been going on now. the fact that it's still sort of happening, lead you to believe that these guys, you know, there's something else there. Like this is just beyond the physical at this point. It isn't a casual relationship in the traditional sense. And the fact that they've committed to so much time together and so much
sort of repetition in their relationship. Yeah, it just goes to show that they sort of clocked in a little bit and they're quite content. Well, not so much content, but they're sort of happy to maintain the status quo that's been going on at the moment.
Silvan (03:09)
Yeah, and you're right because the pacing of it makes it seem like you've got the hockey scenes initially and that's interspersed between some of the sex scenes. But from a casual viewer it looks like, they're meeting up quite regularly but you don't actually realise these are months if not years apart.
Declan (03:25)
Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah.
And all in the while, it leaves this impression that they're also always sort of contacting each other. They're always sort of messaging each other why this is happening. And then obviously they get those brief moments together where, you know, they actually get to be with one another. And what's interesting is it's going to very quickly become not enough. So it is. And I think this is where Rose comes in because something needs to disrupt.
sort of flow of this something needs to change and she is sort of like the catalyst to let this happen because Shane is starting to realize that Ilya is not really available to him whenever he wants him to be and you get lots of sort of input from external factors in Shane's life as well and some for Ilya too about you know why don't you settle down why don't you find a nice girl or there's always comments about
you know, this person's dating that person or, you know, ⁓ I can set you up on this date and take you here and yada yada yada. And you can very much see that the pressure is on because these guys are now starting to get into their sort of like mid to late twenties. And so the pressure to be in a long term relationship is starting to ramp up. And because of the way in which their current situation is unfolding, they don't really have
an option to do together. They kind of have to figure out some sort of alternative relationship arrangement for themselves that don't involve each other anymore. And that's a very hard thing to do because you're breaking up this cycle that's been going on for years.
Silvan (05:03)
Yeah, in a way I'm surprised Shane's mum or momager, as I like to call her, hasn't PR'd this kind of relationship with someone for a PR perspective. Yeah, so that's quite interesting that that hasn't happened yet and you see it happen in this episode, not because of momager of course. But actually what you're talking about reminds me of that scene where Shane's with both his parents and they're talking about going to Wimbledon the next summer or something like that.
Declan (05:07)
Momager.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah.
Silvan (05:29)
And I thought that was really interesting because you see this this little bit of pressure like we can set you up. There's someone from royalty from Sweden going or something.
Declan (05:36)
He could be dating
a royal. Now this is probably one of the more toxic elements of Shane's relationship with his mother is that she sort of turns every event in his life into a PR stunt and every aspect of his life into a PR stunt. This is his sort of life, his romantic connection. You would think that you would want him to do it for love, but she's quite fixated on the idea that it's in this very public place and that it is very open.
Even though Shane has indicated multiple times that he's a very reserved person, I think that's a disconnect between him and his parents. They don't seem to quite understand that Shane feels differently from what they want to push out. Do you get the feeling that those ads he does are kind of awkward for him? Like he kind of doesn't want to be there and there's like a stiffness to him that doesn't quite look right.
I feel like that is such a big aspect of his relationship with his mother where he kind of feels pressured to take on certain roles as a result of what she sort of wants for him. And all he really wants and what he really loves is the hockey but everything else that goes along with it he feels this obligation to sort of do to keep her happy. That's at least the read that I got from it. Now that relationship is much less complicated in the book.
⁓ the relationship between Shane and his mother is massively expanded upon the TV show in a really good way because it makes for really strong content and characterizes Shane a lot more as well. but you do get the feeling that, you know, Shane doesn't want to disappoint his mother in a lot of ways. And that frustration of the fact that he's lying, the fact that he is, unable to pursue the person that he actually wants.
And this pressure as well coming from his mother, he was looking to turn everything into a PR stunt. Shane doesn't want to go watch tennis in London, he has no interest in it or anyone else. he sort of fobs it off and that sort of rebellion begins to come out in that dinner that they're having. And it's so interesting because it's such a contrast to the Shane that we've seen in the exact same restaurant only a few episodes before where he is basically saying
yeah great we got the Rolex thing that's really good wow okay and you could see that he's just not bothered by it but no it's a lot different because basically he is no longer that interested in appeasing her he's getting more frustrated and you can see that in the way that he's coming across.
Silvan (08:00)
I think it's really interesting that you noted that that's in the same restaurant because I didn't.
Certainly from Shane's mom's perspective, you it sounds like she wants to go to Wimbledon. He's like, I really care. Like you go and she's like, well, they're not going to invite us as the parents. You're the main attraction. So that really cements that sort of drive from Shane's mom. And you're right. I love that you picked up on the advertisements and how stiff he is because
Declan (08:20)
Yeah.
Silvan (08:29)
In the first advertisement that we see in this episode, know, he's partially clothed, but it's like a wet t-shirt contest. Like he's all wet. And then the second one, it's an underwear ad. And again, it's very, very stiff.
Declan (08:34)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, it's, it's painting this idea that he is like putting up this front that he's not being authentic. He's not being his real self. And it's coming out in this really awkward way, previous advertisements. Whereas Ilya is sort of trying to drown himself in his, his vices and everything that you know, he does in terms of like sex, the drink and the partying and stuff like that. And he's sort of
enjoying living his life like that until their relationship starts to get called into question essentially where you know is it the best thing for these two to be together should Shane look for something different should Ilya look for something different and yeah it just creates this very interesting dynamic
Silvan (09:24)
Well, there's that conversation between Ilya and Svetlana in the limo in the car where she's like, how's Jane kind of thing. And you really see in that montage, like, or maybe it's after the montage, I can't remember. But, you know, Ilya spends his off season very differently to Shane. Shane is out there doing commercials and doing all this kind of stuff. And Ilya is back on presumably in Russia, taking care of his father in one of the scenes where he's handing him water and pills and things like that.
Declan (09:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
you
Silvan (09:50)
So their life is very contrasted off season. But then when it comes back to the hockey, it's the same thing that draws them together.
Declan (09:57)
Yeah, exactly. They fall
back into that routine. And it just shows that they come from very different worlds. And it's another difference between the two of them that's kind of stopping them from being together. Ilya is the party animal, but he's also the, you know, parentified child. He's the one that's looking after his father. He's the one that comes from the abuse of home. And then you have Shane, who is the very organized, he's very put together. He is pressured a lot. His parents have
drilled in a sense of perfectionism into Shane and I do think that comes across. I Shane is a perfectionist. Like you could tell from like the earlier episodes whenever he lost to Ilya he was like really annoyed about it. Like frustrated. I feel like Ilya takes his losses a lot better than Shane does. So he does. I feel like Shane takes his almost a little personally to himself. It's like they're personal failures for him. It definitely comes across that way in the book.
But yeah, they're they're so different in personality and in life. And it's interesting that the only time they kind of work is whenever they're doing it this way behind closed doors and whenever they're finding moments to be alone and only then are they actually sort of together in any real sense. So, yeah, it's curious.
Silvan (11:16)
Yeah, and that's when they're almost their authentic self in a way. you talked about sort of behind closed doors and immediately I think of when Shane goes to visit Ilya at Ilya's home and there's this really funny but awkward knock on the doorway. He doesn't knock on the door and he knocks on the window or something like that. And I don't know if he mistakes one for the other, but I thought it was quite funny and quite humorous. And then immediately he walks in and I love Jacob Tierney for doing this, but
Declan (11:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Silvan (11:42)
Shane asks Celia, do you want me to take my shoes off? Like that's such an Asian drilled in thing that you do, like you automatically take your shoes off, or at least you ask.
Declan (11:51)
Yeah, I think
in Ireland and in the UK, like it's not as common a thing to take your shoes off at the door. No, that's completely changed because my boyfriend is continental European and you take your shoes off at the door, you do not walk through the house with them on. So, yeah, it's such an interesting little bit of characterization that they put in and it matches his personality as well. He's very clean, he's very organized, he's very put together.
he definitely takes his shoes off before he walks in his house. But yeah, that whole part of that episode is also very interesting because it's Ilya letting Shane into his world in a way in which he hasn't before. And this is Ilya sort of extending the sort of or rather developing the relationship somewhere further than it's been. And for Shane, this is like a shock because this is not
the usual flow of things. Shane is structured, Shane has a rhythm to his life, it's scheduled and all of a sudden the schedule is interrupted and all of a sudden this new dynamic is appearing and he has absolutely no idea what to do with it. And I find that so so interesting because in his panic he really hurts Illya so he does and it creates this rift between them that just turns into this massive issue then.
for the rest of the episode.
Silvan (13:18)
Yeah, and I suppose before we even get to that, because there's so much to dissect with that alone. But here I see this real role reversal. Shane's out of his comfort zone, like you rightfully mentioned. But even in the first time they have sex at Ilya's house, Ilya's very affectionate. He's very kissy. He's very touchy. And you can see Shane is very cold. And normally it's the other way around, at least from previous episodes that we've seen.
Declan (13:21)
⁓ yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (13:44)
So I thought that was really interesting how there's this complete role reversal happening here. And it makes sense that Shane might be like that because he's not in his environment.
Declan (13:53)
Yeah,
I think Ilya has established the rules. He is usually the controlling force within their sort of romantic encounters and whenever they're having sex or anything like that. But all of a sudden now he's changed the rules and being affectionate and being loving almost in a way and showing that sort of emotional sort of care as well. All out of the blue after being invited to his house.
Like Shane doesn't seem to be someone that deals with change very well and it seems to really overwhelm him. Especially whenever Ilya is acting sort of out of character. When it's actually his true character, he is actually just, he gets in the ginger ale, he makes him the tuna melt sandwich. He's caring for him, he's looking after him. And we've seen aspects of that in the earlier episodes, which then Ilya went ahead and shot right down in those earlier episodes as well for you like that hotel scene.
where he sort of reestablished the sort of control of the relationship and you had that that last line that we didn't even kiss. But now he's just sort of turned it on its head like they're both kind of all over the place at the minute. Ilya doesn't really know what he's doing or why he's doing this. All he knows is that he sort of wants to and he's trying it out with Shane and Shane is like what the hell is going on? I don't understand. This isn't part of the agreement. This is getting messy. You're freaking me out because you're making me
you know, think that we have a chance at feelings here and you get that blank panic then.
Silvan (15:21)
Yeah, and like you said, know, Ilya is in his environment and Ilya is by nature a caretaker. So as I was watching this the first, the second and even the third time, you know, the notes on Ilya being a caretaker just kept coming because we see that, you know, with, you know, Ilya's father, he's caring for his father. And when he's not caring for his father, literally, he's also paying for his treatment or paying his brother to look after him.
Declan (15:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (15:46)
So he's making sure other people are good. And when you extend this to what I call the tuna melt scene, which by the way, I had no idea as a vegetarian, no idea what a tuna melt was. had to Google this. Do you know what a tuna melt is?
Declan (16:01)
It's just like cheddar
and cheese.
Silvan (16:04)
I did not know this. I did not know there was cheese. It's a grilled cheese sandwich with tuna. Also, who's kissing? Well, who's also kissing after eating tuna? anyway, but when we see this scene here with the tuna melt, you know, before we get into that, I would like you and I apologize for people who are listening to this and not watching this. But can you count on your fingers up to two for me and show the camera?
Declan (16:08)
hate you, no. Someone made me a sign once I got there, divorced immediately.
Not that.
Silvan (16:34)
Okay, cool. So you do it like most, I think 99 % of the population does, you you stick your index finger up and then your middle finger. Have you noticed Ilya counts from his little finger backwards?
Declan (16:46)
Does that have do with the way that Russians spoken and written? I had no idea. I was just guessing. had no idea, yeah. All Russian speakers out there, please verify whether or not that's why he does that.
Silvan (16:48)
So it's one, two. Is it? I don't know. We need someone who speaks Russian on here to help us out.
Yeah, I thought this was a really interesting, I don't know if it was a stylistic choice or just a Connor Storrie thing that he does. So I thought it was really interesting, something I picked up on. And then I got validated by someone's TikTok. So that helped. But when we see this, mean, TikTok validates most of my life now. But when we see this scene, know, he went coming back to the caretaking, you he makes sure that Shane has he's bought food for Shane, but he's also bought ginger ale specifically.
He's asking Shane if it's cold enough, which means he's thinking, have I put in the fridge long enough? Did I buy it soon enough? You know, he's taking care of Shane in a way that we haven't seen before and in a way that maybe Shane isn't accustomed to.
Declan (17:35)
Yeah.
and it
freaks him out. So it does scare Shane that because Shane likes it. He does like being looked after and he likes being cared for, but coming from someone that's, you know, is having such, you know, complex feelings about it.
I think as well the fact that Ilya's father is relying so much on him at this point in time and Ilya's beginning to feel quite vulnerable. I think it's another coincidence that he's now chosen this moment to sort of open up to Shane. He's realized that outside of Svetlana there isn't really anyone else he can rely on or that he can talk to about this stuff. And so whenever
Ilya does sort of return to the sofa then. takes that opportunity to, after the conversation with his father, his brother, takes the opportunity then to open up to a little bit about what's been going on in his life. Only for Shane you run out on him. And it's absolutely awful. It's emotional immaturity at its worst and it's sort of typical of Shane.
Silvan (18:37)
my gosh.
Declan (18:47)
Yeah, it's the two of them have created a really toxic dynamic and it's resulted in this sort of situation now where neither of them really know when is the right time to say things or to not say things and it's all become so messy as a result of it and now people know everyone's hurt and Shane's hurt, Ilya's hurt and they've created a real mess out of nowhere and the solution is apparently to jump ship.
Silvan (19:17)
Well, and before we get to Jumping Ship, AKA Rose, I wanna break down that conversation that Ilya has with his father, because I think there was so much to that, and not just in the content, but in the way it was shot as well.
Declan (19:24)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (19:32)
Ilya is in a wide pan shot and he's in the right hand corner of the shot. And it's a very artistic choice. I'm pretty sure it was deliberate. But when I looked into it I kept watching it over and over again, you know, it makes Ilya's character seem really small and that he's not taking up a lot of space around him. And for me, you know, putting Ilya in that side of the frame really pushes him into the corner of the shot.
Declan (19:51)
Yeah.
Silvan (19:59)
And there's a lot of psychological sort of undertones to that where you've got a lot of negative space or space that isn't being used. And for me, that represents, you know, that sort of isolation that Ilya feels that Ilya has, especially, you know, when it comes to sort of, you know, taking care of his father and being alone and doing that alone. And there's this emotional distance between the relationship between him and his father where, you know, Ilya doesn't take up much space. His, I feel like
Declan (20:05)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, he deliberately makes himself small
so he does in their relationship. He never challenges his father. He just goes along with what he wants. And it's also a way of showing his vulnerability as well. Like the one, the only person that seems to be able to get under Ilya's skin really is his father. Even his brother in a lot of ways, like he has plenty of fire to throw back at him whenever he's having his phone calls, but his father, he just takes on the chin every single time and it makes him small. makes him
Silvan (20:28)
Yeah.
Declan (20:51)
vulnerable but also almost childlike. It's like those conversations with his father reduce him back to being a child where it's just, yes, dad, okay, dad, yes, dad, I will do that, dad, you're right, dad. And it's just that really sad sort of belittling of himself that you see going on that's a result of their relationship.
Silvan (21:11)
Yeah, there's this regression that you see for Ilya back to being more childlike, but even his body language when he's having this conversation, it's tense. You can see the tension in his face and his neck, for example, and it's very controlled. Like he contains his language. He doesn't lash out his father in a way that you might expect him to do in that kind of situation. But it very much contrasts the Ilya we've seen where he's confident and he's bold and he takes up space and he's loud.
Declan (21:31)
Yeah ⁓
Silvan (21:40)
And so for me, this sort of dialogue is almost like a reminder that in Ilya's father's world, or even maybe in Russia, on the Russia side of it, Ilya exists within the margins of it. He's learned to survive by making himself smaller. even when he returns back to Shane, there's this moment where he shakes it off almost. So it's almost like a nervous system regulation thing that happens there, where he shakes it off, he fixes himself.
Declan (21:56)
Yeah, by hiding himself, yeah.
Silvan (22:10)
and then he goes back to caring for Shane's needs.
Declan (22:11)
It's almost like he's putting
the mask back on again. And very curiously, he then takes it off again for Shane whenever Shane asks him. So he does and Ilya does finally begin to actually reveal things to Shane that he has never revealed before. And Shane's response is to freak out because all of a sudden he doesn't know who this person is. He doesn't know this very kind.
nurturing vulnerable person and he cannot square these sort of versions of Ilya with each other. The sort of cocky one that wears the mask and always has a quick wit to sort of snap back with and trying to square with this other version that he's now seeing of vulnerability and sweetness and you know, a little bit of sadness as well. Like that.
Shane is disconcerting because he doesn't know what to do with it. He's not had a relationship like this before. And their previous dynamic has not sort of given space for this kind of thing to occur.
Silvan (23:18)
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because Ilya sort of instigates this by calling him Shane for the first time. I think that's the first time I hear him say this first name. But then Shane responds in the same way. So he says Ilya in return. And so I can see how this whole episode is sort of built up to this, or even the episodes preceding this are built up to this, where there is this moment of emotional vulnerability. And when that's reciprocated, like you said before,
Declan (23:24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Silvan (23:44)
Ilya takes things off the chin. He's okay with things. He can, you know, keep going. Whereas Shane that sort of, you know, freaks out, pulls back almost immediately. I mean, the guy is still straddling him, let's be honest, you know, and he's literally like, can't do this. But I wanted to ask you how many times in real life, because that is quite accurate, has someone had like a freak out like that or felt there's a moment of I can't do this. I don't want to do this anymore.
Declan (23:55)
Yeah.
Silvan (24:12)
and literally pulls the rug under another person. Because I know I've probably been in both those scenarios.
Declan (24:19)
Yeah, I've definitely been in a scenario where I pulled the rug 100%. I think a lot of it comes down to a defense mechanism. So it's like you're trying to protect yourself from something. And I think in Shane and Ilya's situation, it's Shane trying to protect himself from the pain of the inevitable end of this relationship, even if it does become something more. at this point, they're already in love 100%.
They're in love with the versions of themselves that they see. And I think this new layer being peeled back has made Shane like Ilya even more. And now he's freaking out because he's going to get his heart smashed to pieces when this thing blows up. And it has to blow up because in Shane's world, cannot be. There's no, they have not even, he's not even entertained the idea. He's not even thought about it at this point.
know, what would their relationship look like? How would they make it work? In his head, it's well, it wouldn't, it's just not going to work. We can't be together. And now Ilya is trying to develop this relationship to a position where both of them could be hurt really, really badly. And Shane is immediately going into a sort of avoidance state where he's like, no, I'm not dealing with this. Goodbye. I rather not have to deal with the emotions. I'm backing away and
sorry, that's it, I need to protect myself. you know, realistically, in a real life situation where they couldn't work out and where things just would never get better and they risk losing so much. What Shane does is really cruel in the way he does it. And I don't appreciate the way he does it. I don't think it's fair on Ilya and I think it's really pearly times.
but him withdrawing at that moment whenever the emotion is getting very serious and very deep is correct. It is the right decision to actually make in like a logical sense, but you know, love's not logical.
Silvan (26:17)
See, I'm going to play devil's advocate here and I think that's actually a really typical Shane response because if we look at the moments just preceding that, you know, they're on the couch, Ilya is sort of like playing with Shane's head, sort of watching TV and I'm like, this is a really nice tender moment. Shane can't handle that. Shane starts to touch Ilya's thigh and makes it sexual. I'm like, he can't tolerate the emotion.
Declan (26:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (26:44)
So I think, you know, there
is an ownership of shame, like not being able to tolerate it, but that's also really realistic for guys in that age bracket, perhaps, or guys with that experience or lack of experience in terms of emotional sort of intelligence, for example, where, you know, if you can't deal with the emotional side, you make it sexual because that's something that you can control. That's something that you know how to deal with that makes sense and that feels safer in a way. I mean,
Declan (26:55)
you
Yeah
Yeah.
Silvan (27:13)
I can't tell you the number of times, and I'm not going to include myself, of friends who have hooked up with guys and then said, I didn't even know his name. So, you know, I mean, there is that sort of distancing there.
Declan (27:23)
Yeah, it's,
yeah, it's the thing about their relationship now though, is that it's been going on for a while and this has been happening over and over and over again. And this is Shane trying to do what Ilya did in the hotel, which is sort of take control back of the situation and turn it back into the sort of just sexual dynamic and away from the romance, away from the affection, away from the emotion. And he does it really badly.
he does because what they end up doing is having like a really intimate tender moment on the sofa then and whenever they're at the end of it they're having this like really emotional like bit of silence between each other where they're just sort of being each other's company and then he really freaks out because it's like my god that didn't work i need to get out of here now because actually that made it worse and all of a sudden my feelings have just sort of exploded at this point and i need to get the hell out of the situation immediately
So I think it's at that point Shane realizes that there is absolutely no turning back now. Ilya has completely changed the relationship. He's changed the dynamic. They can no longer be together in the way that they were before because they're too close now. And there is no way of returning to that state without addressing it. And Shane doesn't like to address things directly. He is an avoidant.
Silvan (28:20)
Yeah.
Declan (28:45)
and he will try to skirt his way around it and find ways of not being in Ilya's company and not having to those awkward conversations or those difficult conversations. It's the same with the relationship he has with his mom and his parents. He doesn't want to the awkward conversations about what he actually wants or what he actually wants to do. He doesn't challenge, very rarely challenges. He sort of just goes with the flow. He doesn't even challenge on the ice whenever he's in hockey. He doesn't fight. He doesn't really argue.
And there's like very few moments where Shane is actually like confrontation with somebody. You have that one scene with Scott in the previous episode where he has like the most beige insult ever thrown at Scott and Scott just like cuts his knees out from under him. And the commentator makes the commentary of like, that's very unusual for Hollander to get in a fight. Like we've never seen this before. And he is so unconfrontational that
His immediate response is just to run away and that's exactly what he does. And for Ilya, I don't think Shane realizes how badly a moment that he's chosen to do this. Ilya invited Shane over because he needed him at that point in time. He needed him emotionally. He needed that support, that he needed the boyfriend. And all of a sudden Shane rejects him.
Silvan (29:46)
Right? Right?
One of them, yeah.
Declan (30:06)
in the worst possible way and thinking of Ilya's current mental state when he does that my god it's not good it's not good
Silvan (30:14)
It's rejection on two parts. It's rejection from his family, but now it's rejection from someone he cares very much for. in a way, this reminds me of like, know, when you watch like a romcom and one or not even a romcom, but a TV show or movie where one person says, I love you and the other's like, thanks. It kind of reminds me of that. It's like I'm putting something out there and I've just been rejected and it's hurtful and it's hard. But even thinking about sort of the response afterwards. And this is where like Connor Storrie is a phenomenal actor
Declan (30:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (30:44)
You know, when he says Hollander and he just says the name twice, but there's such a nuance, like the first one feels like really, you're going to go really seriously. And then when he says it again, there's this don't go behind it. Yeah.
Declan (30:56)
don't leave you. It's so heartbreaking
and you get so mad at Shane for what he does and how he does it. Even though he's rationalized in his head as to this is the right decision but he's not making the decision out of practicalities, out of fear. is and that fear is driving him to make all the wrong choices. And then enter left field Rose which is so
Silvan (31:06)
What
Speaking of wrong choices, no I'm
kidding. ⁓
Declan (31:22)
perfectly timed,
honestly imperfectly timed you could almost say like for Shane because he has come to the conclusion now that if he can't have Ilya he doesn't want anyone else so he is just going to try to be straight. He's just if I can't have a man in any way or form and it can't be Ilya then I'm not gonna try and date men I'm just gonna try and date women instead.
Which, know, ⁓ yeah, definitely is gonna work for him.
Silvan (31:52)
Yeah.
What was your, I really liked the character of Rose and I liked the way she's introduced. I think she's introduced in a really smart way because of what she talks about. So when we see Rose in the booth at the restaurant, which Shane doesn't even go out, the fact that he goes out and starts drinking is a whole nother level. But when we see Rose Landry, they say she's filming something like X Squad and I thought, that's a little too X-Men Suicide Squad-y. Like, okay, you could have picked.
Declan (32:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's
Silvan (32:22)
have picked a better name. Like that's my only thing with the writing was like really that's the name but anyway you know when we see that I do like the Bill Paxton reference because in in reality he would have died a year after that scene would have happened so the fact that she's building a movie with big Bill Paxton sort of took me back to like Titanic and and and twisters or twister rather but
Declan (32:42)
Yeah.
Silvan (32:46)
know, Rose immediately engages him in deep conversation in those scenes. There's no small talk. So for me, Shane doesn't have to sort of work hard at sort of masking in a way. But even when Rose talks, you know, the commentary that she makes is on women in the film industry or in her industry not being able to eat certain food because she won't be able to fit in her costume the next day. And I thought, there's a whole layer that Jacob Cherney is bringing in here.
Declan (32:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (33:16)
And it's such a feminist type of writing from a female gaze, I thought, because, you know, and then she comments on sort of the lack of diversity for female roles and that she's been kidnapped in four movies already kind of thing. And I really like the way she's introduced here. I don't know what it's like in the book though.
Declan (33:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
In the book, she's also quite like a bright personality. Shane talks about her a lot in the way that he just really, really likes her. He just likes the kind of person that she is. And it's portrayed very well in the show as well because she is immensely likable, which is something absolutely needed to get correct because keep in mind, this woman is going to be the obstacle between our two main love interests.
And you don't want to turn her into a villain. You don't want to turn her into some demon that's keeping them apart. And so I think the way that they approached her character was done very well with a lot of care. She is smart. She's really insightful. She's kind. She's patient. She's funny. She is generally everything you'd want in a girlfriend. So you can sort of see why Shane chooses to gravitate towards her and was thinking, maybe I can just try with Rose because I actually like her and maybe I can turn that into something else.
You can sort of see Shane's internal logic sort of running through his head as he's sort of meeting her and making this new friend, which he then allows to turn into something different. But yeah, I think the way that they did her character was done very well. And I think it was quite true to the books. Again, a little bit more expanded upon. We get a lot more of the conversation between the two rather than just saying that they had conversation. That was really good.
And it was portrayed really well. And I liked that their first meeting was extended out a bit more than from the books. You really get a better sense of Rose's personality and the kind of person that she is. Yeah, I think she was done really well and I'm glad that Jacob Tierney had the foresight not to try to demonize her or turn her into this basically whooping post for their bad relationship. yeah, definitely a smart move of Rose, I think.
Silvan (35:16)
Yeah, I think where I differ in my appreciation for Rose is her choice in Friends in Miles. I get the ick. I get the ick with Miles in the nightclub. Let's go to the nightclub. You know, I love this opening scene where you have Ilya sort of walking into the nightclub and you have the TATU song, all the things she said playing. I immediately scream.
I'm not going to lie about this.
Declan (35:45)
That was
just absolute peak song choice. It just says everything. A song that's all about struggles between two lesbians in the closet in love with each other and not being able to be together. what?
Silvan (36:02)
and the way they shoot this scene and they pair it with them. And I'm going to get into this. But but even and I as a avid fan who's consuming a lot of Heath rivalry sort of interviews and and fan edits and everything, I immediately go back to the premiere of the show where, you know, there's three of them, there's a few more of them on the panel. And they ask Connor Storrie I don't know if you've seen this. They ask Connor Storrie like, what would Ilya's theme song be or something?
And Ilya's like, ⁓ sorry, Connor Storrie is like, you know what? I really like him to sing the TATU song, all the things she said, and he sings like four bars. And you don't think anything of it. And I'm like, was that a cue? Was that just by chance? I'll send it to you later. And I immediately go back to that point and I'm like, my heffing God, they used the song.
Declan (36:42)
Yeah, I don't know that. Yeah.
clever,
clever sort of spoiler put in there so he did.
Silvan (36:56)
or genuinely didn't know it was going to be used. There's lots of fan theories out there. I don't know who's right.
Declan (36:59)
true yeah because a lot
of that music comes sort of post-production so it would come during the editing but you know I don't know sometimes they'll write in the scripts what music will be playing so that the actors get an idea of sort of the mood and the feeling and stuff behind it so I don't know I wouldn't put a pass on to try and drop the little hint in there just to see but yeah I would say they spent all their sort of licensing money on that song alone
Silvan (37:22)
Let me live in my fantasy.
Declan (37:27)
So they did because it was such an excellent choice and it was perfect for the mood and it just fully captured the moment that was happening. have two queer people that just cannot be together, longing and yearning for each other in the middle of a dance floor.
Silvan (37:44)
And then to use the Harrison cover, which to me almost represented Shane's inner a monologue, was, I thought, Because it's a male singer singing the same song.
Declan (37:53)
Mmm, yeah, yeah.
the male equivalent
of it happening. Yeah, yeah. It was very, very clever. was, I can see why everyone loved it. It was such an amazing moment and really memorable as well. And yeah, that whole nightclub scene is just, ⁓ there's so much in it. And then the sort of, takes it back to the beginning of the episode where you had the contrast of their lives going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
Silvan (38:15)
Yeah.
Declan (38:23)
then you have it again at the end where you're seeing how their lives are contrasting now that they're sort of not together anymore where the sex scenes are no longer happening with you know they're no longer happening with each other they're happening with different people ilia is having it with himself because obviously he couldn't bring himself to i know did you notice that as well at the end of night shane is with rose at the end of night ilia is by himself he doesn't take that girl home probably because
has no interest in her and the only person that he did have an interest in that has gone home with somebody else he's probably quite heartbroken at that point in time and it's just it's so hard to watch as someone that's trying to root for these characters to be together and a really bitter pill to swallow that they've allowed themselves to get to this point now in the relationship where they are literally doing anything but doing what they want
which is to be together. I think, yeah, Shane in particular is, he looks so emotional in this scene. I think the way Hudson Williams plays it, like Shane is by nature because there is like, you know, there's definitely a sense that Shane is on sort of like the autism spectrum. He's somewhere on here and that he
Silvan (39:21)
like that.
Declan (39:40)
doesn't always sort of outwardly express his emotions in the same way that other people do. Which when you actually see how Hudson Williams is in real life, he's very animated. And how he manages to draw that back and completely express all his emotion through his facial features, through his eyes, and through just his little sort of things that he does with his face, how he's able to portray that emotion.
You can see that Shane is devastated watching Ilya on that dance floor. So he is, you can see it in his eyes, you can see it in the performance and it's so sad. And yeah, the way the whole thing plays out is just the perfect wrap up to sort of break in their relationship which has happened.
Silvan (40:24)
Yeah, and I think, you know, especially when you talk, when you're talking about that sort of that sex scene between Shane and Rose. And can I just go on a side quest here? The actress that plays Rose has a gorgeous ass like when she's walking up the stairs and she seductively drops the dress. I was like, I could be suede maybe. I don't know. But second to Ilya, I think she has the second best ass in the whole show for me. ⁓
Declan (40:37)
Yeah, yeah.
yeah, the Gerrits definitely, yeah,
100%. They got good representation there as well. ⁓
Silvan (40:57)
But I think, and my question is, because this is what I was thinking about when they were having that sex scene where they have, you know, the shot of Ilya and then Con and their faces sort of go back and forth. Do you think Shane is thinking of Ilya when he's having sex with Rose?
Declan (41:10)
Yes, I knew what you were going to say before you said
it. Yes, I think the idea of putting it in between is to show that they're actually thinking about each other why this is happening. So Shane is thinking about Ilya and Ilya is thinking about Shane. So 100 % you're right. is, it was definitely caught to portray that, which is just, it's not good, is it?
Silvan (41:32)
It's not, but actually it adds this whole other layer to it because I mean, I've never done that in real life. I'm going to be honest, but I can see why somebody might, you know, like I get the appeal of it. And for someone like Shane, yeah, either, okay, get hard or get there or get to that point where you could.
Declan (41:49)
trying to get yourself for you. Yeah. You see.
Yeah, get to yourself
to the point where you're actually working and you're actually able to participate. It's This is where I Lose it with Shane a little bit. He is making incredibly selfish decisions and he's doing it out of a place of fear and Fear dominates so much of Shane's life like his fear of disappointing his parents his fear of losing hockey his fear of getting hurt in his relationship with Ilya but
his fear leads him to make worse decisions. So it does. He thinks he's protecting himself, but he's sacrificing everyone around him to try and do it. And he's not thinking about Roses feelings in this. So he's not, he knows he's not going to be able to give us all the Rose, but he's still carrying out this relationship. He's still going through it. He knows he's hurting Ilya by doing it. But he's doing it anyway, because he would
He's just so internalizing, he's just so internal in himself, he's just so wrapped up in his own world and this fear of what's going to happen if he sort of lets his relationship and his feelings with Ilya develop. you do get the feeling that Ilya is sort of the more emotionally intelligent out of the two.
And I think you can see it here as well. Now, Ilya is trying to be petty with Shane when he goes and tries to find a girl in the club. He's trying to make him jealous, completely backfires and he ends up being the one that goes home alone. But Shane can be very selfish in his decisions so he can and it is coming out of a place of fear so he can empathize with that. And it does make him a much more layered character. But you will see that, yeah, it's his sort of lack of...
emotional intelligence that's causing this sort of issue to happen. mean Shane should be self-aware enough not to drag Rose into this, but he's doing it anyway, all to sort of protect himself from his feelings in relation to Ilya's relationship with him.
Silvan (43:50)
Yeah, and that's so interesting because for me it's almost like it adds this layer of authenticity for me because Shane gets hurt so he hurts Ilya in return. So when they've got the scene at Ilya's house and Ilya is talking about other girls that he slept with and then he talks about Svetlana and we get a little bit of backstory for Svetlana, you can see Shane or ⁓ Hudson making the choice perhaps in the acting.
You know, Shane retreats. gets quiet when he's processing or when he's hurt. And that's very typical of a lot of people. Not not being on the spectrum or not, regardless of that. But that is very typical because I identify with that. And not to get you really psychodynamic with this. But it's interesting how I'm really coming through this episode feeling connected to Shane because of some of the the ways he's portraying the way he's being portrayed.
Declan (44:19)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (44:44)
but also I'm feeling huge amounts of empathy for Shane and also for Ilya, of course, but I'm much more interested in the dynamic between Ilya and his father in this episode here, whereas you're really almost disappointed with Shane or irritated with some of the choices he's making.
Declan (44:58)
Yeah, but that's
that's my personality. I am like a moral exceptionalist. I am I am like, which is not always a good thing, but I. It's a very understandable thing that she's doing their very human responses to what he's what he's going through and what he's experiencing. He's doing it all out of a place of, you know, a negative perspective on his life and what's going to happen and this this fear of the unknown and his.
choices are completely and utterly understandable. they are. But ultimately they're still his choices and they still end up hurting people. And so it's kind of like, how much are we letting him off the hook here? How much? mean, he is, he's drag rose into this. He is really hurt Ilya in this episode as well, even though he was doing it in response to what Ilya sort of said to him. But Ilya, I think is just lacking in self-awareness. That's just sort of the way he is. And yeah, it's
creates a very complex dynamic around him so it does which is interesting because that means that he's a three-dimensional character that actually has flaws but you're supposed to have I mean nobody's perfect and you can see how messy and just destructive this relationship is being and funny it's not coming from the outside world it's coming from within so does Shane and Ilya are assuming that the one
like the thing that would break apart their relationship is if someone were to happen, if they were to be found out and they have to deal with all the toxicity around hockey fans and all the way that homophobia is treated in the media and sports personalities and just the general wider sort of entertainment sphere and how they would be treated in that way and how that would ruin the relationship and ruin what they have. They're doing it to themselves. So they are completely and utterly.
they are creating more issues than what they actually have. And I think that is kind of what this episode is trying to establish is that a lot of the destruction of the relationship is self-destructive. It's sort of, it's coming from within. It's the fear of things that haven't even happened yet, which are ruining this dynamic, which, you know, they are already in love with each other like big time.
And they enjoy each other's company. They enjoy the time they spend together. They are constantly sort of in contact, even when they're not seeing each other physically. And it's that fear that it will be taken from them or ruined for them in some way that's actually causing them to ruin it themselves. And so in that sense, it perfectly makes sense why Shane is making these decisions and why he's having such poor outcomes because
This is what's meant to happen. You're blowing it up yourself. Like you did this.
Silvan (47:41)
Yeah, and I like that there's this introspection and you know how you talked about sort of it's coming from within. Yes, it's definitely being destructed from the inside out in a way. And this is what I love about being able to talk to somebody, talk to someone else in the fandom about it, because this kind of conversation gets me excited. You know, knowing that you're irritated with Shane and I'm like, I'm not so irritated with him this week. Like, that's interesting to me. Like, what's what's going on behind that? And I think that's what this
Declan (47:49)
Okay.
Silvan (48:09)
sort of whole phenomenon has created and especially through like social media where you've got actual conversations about some of this stuff going on. That's what interests me. It's what happens to real life people when they talk about this show and what does that bring up for them?
Declan (48:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
For me, it's a lot to do with the sort of selfishness of Shane's decisions. That's what annoys me about the way that he's acted in this. He's been so reckless with everybody else's feelings just to sort of protect himself. And you can completely understand why, but just because you understand something doesn't justify it. So that is sort of my, that's where I come from in life. Like if I'm wronged,
I can have enough empathy for someone to understand why they did something but I'm not letting you off the hook just because I know why you did something. An explanation is not justification. unfortunately Shane you're just on my shit list for this episode anyway. You have two more to pull it back. Don't worry about it I have faith in you. I think you're genuinely a good guy but you're going to need to make up for some of this mess that you've made.
Silvan (49:10)
you
Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next and how, because there has to be some sort of coming together or resolution and I'm interested in how that might play out. So yeah, we've got two episodes to, you know, these characters have two episodes to sort their shit out.
Declan (49:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
100 % yeah.
based on where they are in the book at the minute, I know what happens in terms of how this all more or less gets resolved. But it's actually quite a dense part of the book so seeing how it gets paced out and stuff like that there will be interesting.
All right, so we're gonna wrap it up there. Thank you so much for listening. And we're flying through these episodes, but we're really enjoying having our sort of deep dives and getting to talk about it more. if any of you guys have any thoughts on this stuff, by the way, make sure you leave comments, ask questions, know, sort of get more of our perspectives. If there's something that we mentioned that you sort of want to hear more about, then let us know.
keep an eye out for the next episode we'll be looking forward to.
Silvan (50:20)
Yeah, thanks everyone. And if anyone who is Russian out there, please tell us if you wear shoes indoors as well.
Declan (50:24)
Yeah, like is there
a reason why he kind of backwards on his fingers or is just like a little ilia-ism?
Silvan (50:31)
Thanks everyone.