Rev. Dr. Jessica Rochester - Power & Attraction 2

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Rev. Dr. Jessica Rochester is the Madrinha and President of Céu do Montréal, a Santo Daime (Ayahuasca) Church she founded in 1997 in Montréal, Canada.
She is a transpersonal counselor, she trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Assagioli and trained with Dr. Stanislav Grof.
She worked with Health Canada from 2000 until 2017 to achieve an Section 56 Exemption to import and serve the Santo Daime
Sacrament (Ayahuasca).
She is an ordained Interfaith Minister with a Doctorate in Divinity.
From 1986 to 2018 she has been a workshop leader, teacher, and in private practice.
She is the author of Ayahuasca Awakening A Guide to Self-Discovery, Self-Mastery and Self-Care, Volume One and Two.
She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, health and well-being and personal transformation

https://www.revdrjessicarochester.com/

https://psychedelicscene.com/2024/06/20/entheogens-psychedelics-nosc-and-the-search-for-wholeness/

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody is having a beautiful day. I hope that the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. I got another great show for you today with... If you watch the show, you know who this is. But let me just go ahead and give you a wonderful introduction for a wonderful individual. Reverend Dr. Jessica Rochester is the Mahadrina and president of the Sioux de Montreal Asanto Daime Ayahuasca Church. She founded in nineteen ninety seven in Montreal, Canada. She's a transpersonal counselor. She trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Asagioli and trained with Dr. Stanislav Grof. She worked with Health Canada from two thousand until twenty seventeen. to achieve a section fifty six exemption to afford and serve the Santo Daime sacrament. She is an ordained interfaith minister with a doctorate in divinity from nineteen eighty six to twenty eighteen. She has been a workshop leader, a teacher and in private practice. She is the author of Ayahuasca Awakening, a guide to self-discovery, self-mastery and self-care volumes one and two. She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, health and well-being, and personal transformation. We have had an incredible series of talks, and I am so thankful you're here today. Dr. Jessica, how are you? Well, thank you so much. The last time we were together, I took a sling on my arm, so I had a PRP surgery, and I'm coming along slowly but well from that. I can't lift anything heavy yet, but hopefully things will normalize I've got another three weeks before I have a scan and see how successful it was so fingers crossed okay and it's been busy it's been busy lots of things shaking and moving I guess before we want to start I just want to say up up here in Canada the leaves have turned magnificently and then the November winds come along and we start to remove them all and And as we really see the season change, I understand that depending on where you are, people don't have the level of season change that you have. And what's fascinating about it is being close to the seasonal changes makes you more sensitive somehow to nature and to the activities around you. And so, you know, you see all those girls and all the little critters, they're storing up for the winter and People who live in southern climates, they don't understand it's all about survival up here in the cold weather, you know. Can't live in a hammock and just lean out and snap some fruit off a three-year-old and pull a fish out of a river. I'm not suggesting that people's lives are easy. I'm sure everybody has their own challenges and difficulties. But not everybody has to face the cold winter we have up here. So that's what's coming around the corner for us is digging out all the winter boots and the heavy coats and the You know, until you can't hardly see us because we're so bundled up. And at the same time, today is an important day for all of my dear friends and colleagues and people south of the border. You know, our dear neighbor to the south. And so all I want to say to you guys is may wisdom guide you. May you have peace and respect. And today and in the coming days, May those higher qualities be the ones that motivate everybody's words and actions. That's my hope for you guys. My dear neighbors to the south. Thank you for those kind words. I think we need some civility more now than we ever have. I have faith in the American spirit and I have faith in my brothers and sisters and neighbors and, and a force bigger than we know. I I'm, I'm hopeful that everybody goes out and does the work to become the very best versions of themselves. Cause I think that that's how we get through these, these tricky times. Yeah. And, and whatever, however the chips fall or whatever happens, but that is still the same commitment. Yep. But the commitment is okay. The people have decided. whatever they do decide. And now we're all going to be the best version of ourselves. And that's, I think the only way that we can really strive to live the kind of things that we talk about on a regular basis, no point about talking about things and then not living it. So anyway, we were talking about attraction the last few times we met and we were going to be talking about power. And so just in case people didn't, you know, have a chance to listen to the other shows, then, you know, we were talking about attraction, what it is, and that attraction is a universal principle. You know, planet Earth moves in attraction to the sun, the moon moves around the earth in attraction to the earth. This whole solar system is moving in attraction to our galaxy. Our galaxy is moving in attraction. This is all real. Okay. All real. A few billion years from now, our galaxy looks like it's going to collide with another one that's aiming for us. You know, this is all, everything is attraction. And everything in our body is, you know, the minerals in our body, you know, potassium is attracted to other, you know, you can take any aspect of the human experience and say that attraction is happening on every level. So we're trying to open it up from just romantic or sexual attraction, okay, to help people understand that this is a force of nature. And understanding that may help us with our areas where we can get stuck so we can be attracted intellectually to a person. Just simply on all the levels on which we are human, we can have a deep intellectual attraction. to somebody that doesn't, in any way, isn't romantic or sexual or anything else, okay? It's an intellectual attraction. We admire their mind. We want to spend time in conversations with them. We read their books. We go to their lectures. We have you, okay? We study or train with them because we are attracted to their teachings. We're attracted to their message. So it's an intellectual attraction. It can be a creative attraction. Artists get together with artists. Musicians get together with musicians, you know, and it's like, hey, let's, you know, you've got your drum, I've got my piano, let's make magic, okay? So attraction exists everywhere all the time. And it can be, it certainly can be physical, it can be intellectual, it can be emotional, it can be a strong emotional attraction to somebody to share deeply. Still doesn't mean it's romantic or sexual, okay? but people tend to kind of confuse all of these things. I'm attracted to you. Therefore I must need to have sex with you, which is ridiculous. Okay. It's just ridiculous. Okay. And we need to sort those things out. And that takes, you know, a little sense of humor, some calmness, some respect and understanding ourselves in a larger place. Okay. We'd also talked about the kind of the, Oh, and I pulled it out again because I really love this quote. Okay. And, and I, in HuffPost by Jenny Mustafa Chulak, talking about the law of attraction, the book that we mentioned before, and how it really hooked a lot of people into believing some things that are actually contrary to the basic principles of either experience in life, okay, or true spiritual traditions. It's easy to cherry pick out a word here and there and turn it into you know, your own story. Anyway, what she said is it's a playbook for entitlement and self-absorption. And I think that that's just something that we have to take ownership of. Are we attracted to things that tend to boost our image of who we think we are? Or are we attracted to things that will say, hey, honey, I'm going to tell you some things about you that your great things and your strengths, but you know what? You also, you're real, you're human. You've got some limitations, shortcomings going on for you, you know? And can we put that in balance and talk about both? Or do you just want me to sit here and puff up your ego, you know? And so we have to look at, hmm, the law of attraction is exactly that. What are we attracted to? And that tiny truth in it that we are a co-creator in our experience, right? So we live in a world of rampant narcissism, self-entitlement, and it's all about me and what I want and how I want it and what I'm going to do to get it. So that's about attraction. Is there anything you want to add to that? I think I've tried to do a little overview of my last couple of conversations. How did I do here? I think you did excellent. It's a great summary of, of where we've got into not only in the last discussion, but a couple before that it was, I think we had mentioned prior to going into that last conversation that there's so much to cover in an attraction. And so many of those wires get crossed in, in communication, whether it's verbal or nonverbal, it's so easy to mix the signals and, and not thoroughly understand the communication. But I I think you did a great job of summing it up. And, and if those people want, if people want to know more, they should go back and listen to that previous podcast because we dive into detail there. Yeah, that's right. And, um, and, and understanding that it's larger than us. Okay. Yes. Um, try to explain to my, one of my granddaughters, um, what fear means. You know, and, and sweetheart, You can't smell it, taste it, feel it. It's actually, you know, I always use nature. I'm a great admirer of like David Attenborough and all his series and Professor Brian Cox. So, you know, the little bit of time I have for TV, I'm always on, you know, BBC Earth or Love Nature and these extraordinary programs they put on about nature and the cosmos and the universe and stuff like that. And it's so educational and so nourishing on a soul level. And some of it tearful, as you see, okay, another endangered species. And, you know, last week, three went extinct. But anyway, so trying to explain that often the things, you know, first year high school, very attractive young woman, looks a little older than she is. And all the older guys in high school are following her around. Okay. And so we're teaching her how to manage those situations. And I'm explaining to her what fear homes are. You know, sweetheart, they're invisible and you don't realize. And then I explained to her, okay, I'll give you an example. A male clothing moth can smell a female clothing moth a kilometer away. That's impressive. Humans can barely smell something next door unless it's burning. Barbecue a light. So, I mean, oh, I need clothing. Okay. A kilometer away. And animals such as, you know, let's say snow leopards, they will mark off in their huge territory. They will go and they will be rubbing themselves off. They're marking everything they're sent on this rock and that outcrop and, and, and then, trusting as they traverse that there's going to be a female who's going to come along and smell it and they're also looking for where females left a trail and all of these things are operating in humans so far below our ability to sense them and so we we may not even realize that whatever it is that we're leaking okay may have some appeal to you know and and that's the stuff that we're aware of and that's the stuff we're not aware of that's happening all the time and then what happens when you decide to take your power and use whatever power of attraction you have what happens then so let's talk about power yeah should we define power first so that somebody doesn't think that we're talking about hydroelectricity or... Okay, what's power? What's personal power? What would be your definition? It's such a big topic. On some level, on a surface level, I think power is applied dominance. It's your ability to dominate something on a surface level. But then as you really begin to dissect what power is, it's sort of this amalgamation of attraction and scarcity and ideals. I don't have a real great understanding of power. of all the forces that come to create power. I wish I had a better one and I think I'm going to learn more today, but I think too many people are trapped in the idea of dominance as power. Wow. Okay. I wasn't expecting that. Okay. So that's certainly, you know, some definition of power and that it's dominance. Okay. Right. So So I have a different view. Okay. A little bit map. Okay. The cartography back to that cartography is fascinating. And so those of you who are familiar with my work and my book, you're going to see that I believe that our personal power is part of our will and it's in your chakra. So I devote quite a bit of, you know, whole chapter to the will. Because in the end, it is our will, our personal will, that utilizes this power. It may be motivated by thoughts. It may be motivated by feelings. It may be motivated by beliefs. But in the end, it is our willpower that engages our words, our actions, our decisions. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Okay, good. So third chakra, willpower. In third chakra is also our sense of self, who we are and who we are in the world. Okay? Now, if we dial it down to when we were children, let's dial it right down to the age of two and three, that delightful stage. They're so delicious and wonderful and challenging. You know, as a parent of children and grandchildren, I can say, and having been one myself, okay, is there's challenges in the developmental stages, okay? And what we're seeing is the first go around with willpower, no, tantrums, okay, don't want, won't do, you know, and the best word, of course, being no, which is only second to want, want that now, okay? And how it depends on a person's, a child's character and how things are managed in the environment. Okay. It's not just the environment and it's not just the child's character. There's a combination of factors there that are at play. Okay. That help the child navigate, you know, the boundaries around what I want and others and what I want and what is healthy for me, you know, what is good. what I want and what is fair or reasonable to the rest of the family, you know, and want doggy now. Yeah. But your older sister is terribly allergic. Okay. So you're not going to get your doggy now. Okay. I want a goldfish. And so you have to navigate all of that, the struggle with personal power, you know, the, the children's children in the sandbox in the park. Okay. There's always going to be the kid. It's going to grab the toy, right? Bop somebody on the head. I want that toy, you know. And, you know, somewhere I'll have to, you know, the rules of the kindergarten, everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten, you know. I can't remember his name off the top of my head right now, but it's a wonderful little book. People don't know what they should look it up, you know, hold hands when you cross the street, hug both ways, okay, play nicely. Don't take other people's toys. It's all right there. If we kept those rules, we'd do just grand as adults. And a big part of it is how to manage our willpower. And part of that is tied up in what is considered in some traditions to be a deep spiritual truth. Some dress it up as the ability to resist temptation. That's very kind of old Christian. And others, and Declared as the ability to delay satisfaction. The ability to delay satisfaction. That requires a certain amount of willpower and maturity. So we get past the, I want this and I want it now and have a tantrum. Oh, plenty of battles. Don't do that. Okay. in a healthy environment that we are taught to manage our personal willpower as it pertains to our self-development and our relationship with others. Now, is it a question of character, nature, nurture? Is it a question of character and environment and society and religion and the schoolyard and everything? That we all have all these layers of influences and experiences that contribute to our understanding about these things. But then how do we, we can see that in my book when I talk about the will, we can see that there's The will can go out of balance. The balanced will, which means that we're using our power, personal power and balance, is when we're not willful or will-less, we are willing. Okay, so we're not allowing other people to just simply dominate us. Right. And we're not busy dominating other people, but we are willing. to work in certain ways that are healthy. So we can work in a team. We can work with a group. We listen to other people's ideas. We need to react in a way that's respectful without compromising our values. Does that make some sense? Are we, yeah, are we still on the same page here? Yeah, absolutely. So that's just kind of the background. How do we arrive as an adult with an understanding of our personal power? And I'm suggesting here that what I believe is that it is all connected to our will, our will power, what I want, what I choose, what I can do, what I won't do, okay? That all of that is part of an action of willpower, working with our thoughts, our beliefs, our emotions, and hopefully a level of maturity so that we can live dynamically and wherever we are with whoever we're accompanying and whatever work that we have. And that this can be a, not just a life experience that we have, but it's one that's constantly being balanced. Because moment by moment, we have different, it's like walking. Every step that we take, our body has to rebalance in between the steps, right? Anybody who's ever had a surgery from the waist down okay, knees, hips, foot, okay, you're on crutches, a walker, what have you, a cast, something like that. You have to learn how to walk again. The first thing you notice is, whoa, there's a whole reorganizing of balance. And so it's the same with our willpower. It's constantly in the process of kind of testing, assessing each situation and seeing where we're at. Now, the more conscious we are of this, that's terrific. Then we can consciously make decisions constantly. consciously assess what's for the higher good. The more unconscious we are, the more we may act out. The more issues we have with our own personal power and our willpower, the more we may act out. And what are the things that can happen? That was the question. Yeah. I think our emotions tend to be triggers that make us out of alignment, whether it's fear-based or whether it is something based out of scarcity or just greed or selfishness. I think so much of beginning to understand our ability to exercise our willingness to from understanding that you have a choice. And I don't know that everybody understands that. It took me a long time to get to this idea that I actually have the willpower to make the best decisions. It's sort of what Viktor Frankl talked about, that small space in between stimulus and response. There it is, right there, if you can see it, but it's slippery. So there's a lot of triggers there. It is if you zoom past it, that if you learn a very zen way then you find the spaces there. Yes. Yeah. Loving, loving the Viktor Frankl quote, you know, full honors to him, full honors to him. Okay. I printed out some quotes that I felt might be helpful for this discussion. Is that good for you, George? Yeah. I love it. Let's hear them. Okay. Okay. The first one, he who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still. This is from Lao Tzu. It's good. Yes. A little quote from Mark Twain. Laws control the lesser man. Right conduct controls the greater one. That's very Buddhist, really. I didn't realize Mark Twain followed the Buddha, but it is right thought, right word, right action. Alan Ginsberg, who controls the media, the images, controls the culture. And we start to see, whoa, it's not just my personal, something larger going on here. Bonaparte, Napoleon Bonaparte, the battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemy's. Pretty astute. Of course. One of the greatest generals. Yeah. I mean, we can't necessarily agree with everything he did, but then... Strategy-wise, strategy on some level. He was a brilliant tactician. Yes, yes, we agree on that. If only he'd kept it to little figures on the top of a tabletop, we'd be all good. But we could say that about everyone. Sam Groff once said, there's a way to stop all these wars in the world. What they should have is they should turn them into war games. Instead of actual people going out and fighting, okay, they should have it like, you know, like I said, like on the tabletop. And they should have, or they should choose like gladiators, their representatives. And okay, he wins, he loses. Right. And so this was a whole conversation. How do you stop war? And he was always saying there's too much aggression in the human experience. You're not going to stop war. I a hundred percent agree with him. There's too much aggressivity in human nature and too much competition and neediness and greed for us to ever think that we're going to get to the place where it's going to be gone. All we can do is try and keep finding ways of mastering ourselves and educating others, you know? Here's something from Robert Anthony. The one who loves the least controls the relationship. It's an old one, but it's a good one. The one who loves the least controls the relationship. We're going to talk about that in a minute. Why is that? Why is that? One from Henry Ward Beecher. Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right using of strength. And strength is not used rightly when it serves only to carry a man above his fellows for his own solitary glory. He is the greatest whose strength carries up the most hearts by the attraction of his own. Good, eh? That's Henry Murphy Jr. So do you want to come back to a couple of those? So we're going to talk about power and the great use of power. And that's why I picked these out because they went the gamut of power. You know what I'm saying? Power over armies and power over your own soul. Power in personal relationship. And we can see that it's the same thing all the time. And so personal power, where do you want to start? Out there? In here? Personal relationship? Yeah, I think, I think, I think we should start with the personal relationship. I think we can get there either way, but you know, it's the love of power versus the power of love on some level. But I think starting with the individual is a good way to radiate outwards. Good. Okay. So if we have a compromised will and enter into a relationship, our compromised will We'll be leaning us either one way or another, the willful or willless. Willless means we allow others to dominate us. We go quiet. We go silent. We bury it down inside. We're a pleaser. We say yes to everything. Oh, whatever you want, darling. Of course, sweetheart, it's your choice. You choose. You choose. I don't mind. Whatever you choose, I'm fine with it. Okay? And then slink away and mash your teeth when we don't get what we want. Okay? Okay, the great teaching there. If you choose to give away your power, you cannot be angry when somebody does not do what you want. How many women I've met in relationships who come to this huge awakening that they have been handing power over to their partner. And that happens a lot in heterosexual relationships. I can't really speak so much to other dynamics. Other people perhaps could contribute more fully than I could, just simply because of the couple work that I did. The large, large percentage of it was basically heterosexual couples. And it was more often the women conceding to the men, going along with the men. And this is a more deeply rooted experience in the human. I mean, come on, women only got their vote here. in Quebec in what, nineteen forty something? That's not even a hundred years ago. It was, was it twenty something years ago that the law was changed here in Quebec? Where it was no longer, where it became part of the law that because it hadn't been, it was considered like kind of domestic violence. So a man could basically beat up his woman or the way that grief is life. And it was, there's no law against it. This is marital. So society and the laws were in place. Example, in Brazil, up until the year two thousand, and the women in Brazil had worked twenty eight years in the courts. So some women died without seeing it accomplished. They were twenty eight years in the courts, have equal status to men. Up until two thousand, it was written into the Brazilian law that the man was the head of the woman and a woman could not make a decision for her own life or her children's life without the man's approval. This is all about power, isn't it? That's a sad little face you got going on there, George. Yeah, it's. It's a, it's a giant power dynamic there. And I, I, I'm just struggling to think of the long-term consequences of identity when that is, when a person has been kept in that position for so long. Yes. Yes. And again, depends on your character. There's there's some people will shrink down into being the good, you know, the Stepford wife. Okay. What do you want, darling? Dinner's ready. I put on a cute dress for you, a vacuum. You know, here's your drink. You know, that nineteen fifties image of what women should be. Just buy me a new oven, darling. And I'm absolutely thrilled. We'll bake you cookies. OK. What if they were all taking tranquilizers? And or you have the opposite. You have the women who rebelled. and either didn't marry, how many women in history refused to marry because if they did marry, it meant that their inheritance would be handed over. That still was happening not so long ago, and it probably still happens in some countries where individual power is affected by personal power, rights and freedoms are affected by laws, social norms, regulations, cultural norms, religious norms. And so everything that is outside that imposes itself on our personal will. And I use the word impose because there are rules and laws that we support and agree with that are for the benefit of everyone. Traffic laws, for example. We can all agree that there should be stop signs and red lights and and speed limits and things like that. And that people should learn how to drive and not be smoking a cigarette, eating a hamburger, drinking a cup of coffee and talking on the phone while they're driving. Okay. Right. So we all agree that laws are necessary and most laws are good. We should all pay school taxes and income taxes to support the of society. So a lot of that that's good. And then there's this dark area that gives power to one set of people. If we can look back, and we don't have to look that far back, okay, we can see where women couldn't vote or where certain people had no rights at all in years of slavery. And so we can look and see this is all about power. And it's about taking away people's personal power instead of empowering people into their rights and freedoms. Did you have something you wanted to say about that? Well, it's... It's interesting how we don't even need to go that far back when you start looking at some multinational corporations or some governments. Like we can see that same power dynamic playing out right now in the world. And it's a force that rules us. It's a relationship that we don't, maybe if we're not being conscious of, that plays out in our, whether we're being conscious or not conscious, this idea of power is playing out in our lives right now. families and workplaces and everywhere. Yes. And we can think, okay, well, we're in a democracy. Aren't we fortunate? Like they can always be here being a Canadian. Okay. Please God, may your democracy survive. Okay. And healthy, intact, thriving with rights and freedoms appropriately for all. Okay. That, you know, I look here at, or, you know, people think comedians are dull and Canada is so boring and hat, what have you, but you know what? Every morning I get up and thank it. Thank you, Canada. When I look at all the difficult places around the world that struggle with the abuse and misuse of power, either through religion, society, government, belief systems, and we can look at the layers and layers and layers of how people develop and build things through the history of the human race, to disenfranchise some people in order for other people to have what they want. So people use their power, again here. Back to Lao Tzu, he who controls others may be powerful. So we can look at Napoleon and we can look at all kinds of other, we can look right now around the world that are leaders of countries who are doing their best to inspire their people. They're doing their best to ensure that the people in the country, in the nation, have access to housing, healthcare, education, a good possibility of achieving a good life, the opportunities needed. And we can look around and we can see, you know, that there's nations that just want power and control. And they will... do whatever they can to eliminate whoever disagrees with them or whoever wants to remove them from power. And so from the individual up to the global level, it's the same dynamic. So whether it's with a man and a wife, where one or the other is being subjugated to the other person's will, and it goes all the way up to the global experience where you have countries saying, oh, God, nuclear. They call it nuclear power. The threat constantly of power being abused and used. And now, what do we do with this in our own life? Okay, we can look at that large scale thing and we're going to bring it right back down to us. How do we do this? Okay, right thought, right word, right step, right action. We have to just bring it back to this is me. Okay. Whoever's mastered himself is mightier. Okay. Well, I'm going to do my best to master me. What does that look? That looks like me respecting your autonomy as an individual to be able to make your choices and your decisions. Have your viewpoints that may differ from mine. Okay. And respecting that there's some boundary there. that you can have your beliefs and you can have your ideas, and that's okay, that I can be open to listen to them. And then if I still disagree with them, that's okay. We agree to disagree. It doesn't have to be problems or fighting or difficulty, you know. And so how to use our power, personal power effectively, is to live the healthiest, best life that we can. It's to empower ourselves into good care of our body, good care of our mind, making healthy decisions each day. That's what we use our power for. Or do we use our power to involve ourselves in stories and psychodramas and ridiculousness and crazy ideas? It takes a lot of energy. Would you agree? Yeah, absolutely. It's the distractions that steal our power that we give power to. Yes, we give our power away. We can give it to habits. We can give it to other people. We can give it to activities. How many people spend how many hours scrolling through and doing all kinds of things. Now, all of the things can be healthy and balanced. I'm always complaining about that. is it part of a balanced and healthy life? So do we have a good understanding of power, how to use our personal power, taking care of looking into our life, making decisions? What happens when we encounter a situation where there's an imbalance of power and we can sense that there's, you know, you used the word dominance before. What happens then? What do we do in those circumstances? I think people fall back to their default mode network. You know, they fall back to the argument they had with their parents when they were four or five or the fight that they saw. You know, it's like we almost fall back into that lower level of consciousness where it's just that default mode with fight or flight. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. That's what happens. You know, and we have three. survival responses. We have freeze, flee, and fight. Okay, not hard to forget, easy to remember. And some people freeze when they are in a situation of conflict or where there's a dominant person around them, a person who, now, you know, maybe we better take a moment there. There are some people who naturally kind of, because of their their character, their wisdom, knowledge, experience. They're not dominating. Do you know what I'm saying? But they have a place. You go into a classroom and there's a teacher. Okay, the teacher isn't dominating the class. Okay, I just want to make that distinction. Because some people get confused around these things and don't understand it clearly. So if you're in a situation with somebody who knows a whole lot more about you within a subject or has abilities that you don't have, then they're not dominating you. You know, maybe they're showcasing your abilities or maybe they're sharing about things that interest them, but it's not a dominating. That is an energetic thing that requires a motive. Do you understand? Yeah. Yeah. It's an energetic thing that can become, it can be just body language and, You know, if you watch animals, you're going to see like animals will fluff their tail or they'll fluff their fur around their shoulders and make themselves look bigger and they'll strut and they'll growl. And, you know, there's all these things to do that this is, I'm now, you know, accepting your challenge or I'm now looking at you and you're a threat to me. So I'm going to I'm going to display behavior that might look dominant to you, but it's really because I'm scared. Can I give you an example of this? Yeah, please. My son and his family have a wonderful dog named Maggie. She's a red golden retriever, and she has been beautifully trained, but she has just got a real beautiful soul and character to her, okay? And we've learned come Halloween, I've gone over, it was just Halloween last week, So I'd gone over because I like to see my granddaughters getting dressed up and going out and doing their thing. And so I'd hang out with either my son or daughter, whoever's not accompanying, and hand out candy and chat with neighbors and do stuff like that. And what they've learned is they can't let Maggie out. They need to let her kind of see that it's happening so that she's remembering. Because she reacts to any costumes. that has big teeth showing. So people who have like a skeleton with the teeth showing, and the kids that have these dinosaur, blow up dinosaur things with the big teeth, okay? It took a little bit of time for us to notice, okay, those are the things she's reacting to. She's seeing the teeth, okay? And so she'd go like this. So we've learned that we let her watch through the second glass door, all the kids coming. And so she gets, oh, yeah, okay, it's this thing again. Okay, all the kids in the costumes, and then she can come out. But if something comes along with the accused teeth, she's going to start barking and growling and show her teeth. All we have to do is say, she's not going to hurt you. She's scared. She's scared because she's seen this. that if we let her approach you, you're going to see she's going to go back to her belly, she's going to sniff you a little bit, which is exactly what she does. So if we learn from that, that what we look and see, a lot of it is just fear. A lot of it is a fear reaction. So that's the fight reaction coming in. I'm scared, therefore I'm going to start fighting. Now what scares some people may completely not scare somebody else, The threat of loss of faith, the threat of loss of something is probably the scariest thing for most people. So power is energetic, the sensation of being dominated. Have you ever been in a situation as an adult where you felt energetically, it's not verbal yet or physical, they're not touching you and they're not saying things to you, but energetically, that they are attempting to dominate you just through body language. Yeah. My, my wife and I, uh, about a year ago, we were visiting some friends here in Northern California and we drove down to the city and we were having lunch and this individual came up and was, we was just my wife and it was sort of an intimate setting. We were out on a patio and this guy, gentleman comes up, he was, he was homeless and he came up and he sat down next to us and he's like, I want you to buy me some food, you know, but before he sat down next to us, like he just stood by us and you could feel the contemplation going on. You know, it was the uncomfortable presence of the other weighing upon us. the, the relationship that we had. And it was, it was visceral. Like I could feel him. I could see him walking up. I could, I could anticipate the things that were going to happen before any words were said. And there was this sort of decision point, whether he was going to be physical or not physical. And he, he, I think he felt my presence. And so he stopped and rather than act out or do some things, he felt a little challenge. So he stopped and he sat down, which I saw as a sign of, okay, this is not going to be at this point. It's not going to be physical, at least not yet. We've stopped that with nonverbal communication and energy. Like he came into the presence of something that was equal. Oh, what is this? Maybe I shouldn't do that. You know, but I know that feeling well. Yes. And that's something that, you know, we have to actually, we have to learn because it's not something that's taught at school and most parents don't know how to teach kids that unless you're a smart enough person that you send your kid into sports and you talk about those things or you send them into martial arts and you say you're going to learn how to breathe and ground yourself and you're going to learn how to really be in your body and how to project confidence and strength and not kind of shrivel down. Because here's what happens, and that's an excellent example, thank you for sharing it, of how you kind of affirmed yourself. Right. You sensed this presence, and the person's intention was not, it wasn't clear yet, but it was an uncomfortable vibration that you were getting, you know, and You did the best. Yeah. In the, in the moment. Yeah. I think that that it comes from confrontation. The more confrontations you have, be it verbal or actually physical, you begin to sense that vibration before it happens. It's becoming comfortable with the environment. Yes. Yes. That would be a non-ordinary state of consciousness, right? Well, the thing is, is we have this ability if we're not so busy in our head or on our phone or, you know, those are all distractions from consciousness. And if we are to the best of our ability, keep ourselves aware of ourselves in our environment. You'd think sitting on your back patio that you should be able to just be comfortable and enjoy your time there. Yeah. Maybe you need to put a fence up. Yeah. You know, up to you. And the reality is, is it's energetic. And we sense it. I mean, the example I always use is get on an elevator with five strangers. Nobody needs to say a word. And you can tell who's in a good mood and who's in a bad mood. And it's just neutral. And you can tell it's all there. We're leaking that. We're leaking it. We're leaking so much energy. information energy okay we're dispensing it the same way that you know the snow leopard is rubbing himself or herself on the outcrop we're leaking information about ourselves all the time energetically and how do we firm up so in the presence of uncomfortable energies in the presence of dominating energies staying calm being firm, being confident, assessing, what's healthy for me in this moment? You know, what's the next right step in this moment? Now, in the personal relationship, that gets complex, okay? In the personal one-on-one relationship, there's the opportunity for, you know, great intimacy, And by intimacy, I mean intimacy, emotional and intellectual and, yes, physical, of course, but don't confuse intimacy with sexuality. Intimacy is the ability to fully be yourself, to share your deepest hopes and longings and fears and that you know you will be cared about and loved and received, right? And so, you know, if there's an equality in a personal relationship, then that's the great potential. If there isn't, and because of whatever reasons, social, cultural, religious, belief systems, okay, there's an inequality, or one person is so used to taking the one down position that they actually unconsciously go out and find somebody who's used to taking the one up position, the marriage made in heaven, okay? He or she is used to being one up, and He or she is used to being one down, and so they just keep doing that until somebody cracks, okay? Yeah. And when they crack, they crack. So we learn to not give away our personal power to others. We learn to keep our personal power to ourselves, to use it wisely. Now, are we ready to take the next tentative step? Yeah. What about abuse of power? What does that look like? Talked about attraction, that we're going to, attraction and power, how connected they are. They're deeply connected for so many reasons. And what happens, what is abusive power? What is that? It looks like someone throwing someone around the dance floor. Like you have a partner that just is constantly leading. And it's not a dance. It's more of like a pulling people around. Okay. Horrible dance on the dance floor where you're being pulled around. Okay. I wasn't expecting that. That's a great image to work with. So what does a person who's being pulled around on the dance floor do when there's an abuse of power? I think they enable it on some level. They put on a pretend smile, a painful smile. Yes, that is one area that happens far too often. And why does it happen? Why does a person in a situation where there is an abuse of power happening, and that can happen in many different situations, you're talking about the personal relationship where there's an abuse of power. It can happen in the workplace. It can happen in the school system. It can happen in religious settings. There is no place that this is exempt. This is a human thing. It's not just a, oh, over there, that school, or over here, that center or something. No, this is a human dynamic. So you're saying that one of the things that allows this to happen is that on some level, the person is enabling or allowing. Why? I think that there could be multiple factors. One would be a learned behavior. It would be maybe an unrealized generational trauma that is continuing to play out. The one up, the one down thing that we spoke about earlier. And I think maybe something more genuine might be fear, a person's fear of loving themselves at a level that they deserve to. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yes to all of that. So at the core can be a number of things. There can be a, and it's all coming back to third chakra. Remember in the beginning I said third chakra is where I believe our willpower lives? and that it is tied up with our sense of self, who I think I am, and my perception of reality. So if we have a healthy, you know, reasonably confident, reasonably resilient, all of us can get an ouchie in life, okay? And we're not superheroes, we're just people. Okay, but if we have a fairly confident, fairly resilient sense of self, we will be able to recognize when there's something wrong happening, and we will Put a stop to it. We will seek help. We will seek professional advice. We will check our reality. Like, is this happening? A lot of gaslighting goes on, right? So, is this really happening? You know? But that depends on that. Now, if we have third chakra wounding, in other words, as a child, either we were abandoned, so we developed a false sense of self, I'm unlovable, no one will ever love me. If I love and open my heart, people will abandon me, etc. I will be rejected unless I please people, unless I'm good with people, unless I do what they want, okay? And then the flip side, if you've been invaded, so things happen to you that shouldn't have happened, either energetically, verbally, physically, etc., then you might develop the, I'm not worthy, this is all I deserve. So if he slaps me around a little bit, well, that's all I'm worth, okay? And so those are like extreme, okay? Then there's everything in the middle that can be happening. So yes, a lot of the times people will tolerate or enable abuse because of their own inner woundedness, not realizing that they have the right to protect themselves and stop and say no. Now, What happens in an abuse of power where it's in a situation where it's with an abuse of power with an authority figure? I mean, we've talked about the personal relationship, the two people in a personal relationship where there's an abuse of power in the relationship. There's abusiveness going on. But what about if it's different? What if it's about a teacher with a student, a doctor with a patient, a coach with an athlete? a religious leader with a member of the congregation. What about then? What happens? This is a slippery place. We're talking about abuse. We're talking about power. We're talking about will. We're talking about attraction and how people can confuse attraction and power issues. I think on some level, it diminishes personal... Like, authority diminishes personal responsibility. And... Not a whole lot of people, at least in my opinion or myself, have as a young person been trained how to respond to authority in a way that allows for a peaceful confrontation. So I think people fall back into this stimulus response, this Pavlovian dog. You know, I blow the whistle, you begin salivating. Here's this thing called authority. I better do what I'm told. Mm-hmm. Especially if you had the parental upbringing of do what I say and, you know, don't you cry. I'll give you something to cry about. And, you know, more of those things. I told him, see what you made me do. Yeah, look what you made me do. Okay. Now I have to get you because you deserve it because you're bad. All of these things. On the one hand, we can understand that, yes, raising children can be difficult. every parent can get frustrated, but you have to notice that you're doing that. You have to clean it up. Okay. So having said that, okay. And then you have to help your child be empowered to say no and to say stop and things like that, you know, but if that hasn't happened and child goes up and then gets into a situation as a young adult or as an adult where they're now, you know, a student in the classroom, And they're being cajoled by a teacher that come and see me after class. And I see this, but I can give you a better mark. That's a serious abuse of power, whatever it is that somebody's after. And it's usually money, sex, substances, power issues. Those are the common, the usual suspects. And so there's this now the dominance of will in the position of authority, right? What is it that, how do we help people awaken to this dynamic? Because we see it everywhere. And we're seeing so much of it in the entheogenic psychedelic world. I mean, you know, so-called leaders and so-called teachers and so-called shamans who are misusing people for money, for power, for status, for their own sexual needs, okay? What is it that we can do to educate? How do we support people? How do we support people to pay attention I mean, we have an ethics code on our church website. We have an advisory for external events. Check the certification. Do they have a code of ethics? What are their principles? I mean, we do what we can, our little church and I do, to try and educate people so that they are aware that there are problems and they are on the lookout for them. And that if they start to happen, that they report them. Okay. What else can be done? I think on some level you can look for those. If you're in that situation, you can look for that nonverbal energy transfer. It may not be easy, especially if you are already in a nonordinary state of consciousness. But I think that there are warning signs on some level if you're willing to pay attention to them. How am I giving my power away? Is that what you're saying? How am I giving my power? Yes. Yes. Thank you. Because here's where it gets really tricky. Okay. is sometimes it's an out of loop thing that you're not expecting. And you haven't been aware that you've been giving away your power, but all of a sudden something's happening. And that needs to be painted the first checking, which is how am I, what am I doing that? And even if it's just, I'm here, then I need to leave. Okay. I've bought into a belief system. I've bought into this rock star is the greatest person on the planet. Therefore, yeah, sure. I'll go to the after party and sure. I'll take that drink. And cause I'm with the rock star. Right. And, and so we all need to, there's two sides to this and it is tricky. Okay. Because there's absolutely no way that I want any of this to ever be understood as blaming victim. I'm absolutely not. Any person in a position of authority, and or power who so abuses that position should be removed from office immediately. It's as simple as that. There should be dire circumstances that have consequences. So whether it's a teacher in a classroom, whether it's a doctor with patients, whatever it is, a religious shaman, a religious leader with, you know, people in a retreat or a workshop or a congregation, So on the one side, the more, you know, there is the person and the office. And the people don't get this. You know? That there's the person and the office. The office itself of teacher, doctor, religious leader, member of parliament, whatever, okay? Coach to the National Hockey League. the office, the role, the position, the title President of the United States, that has its own power, that seal of power. And that office has its own set of responsibilities, its own moral code, ethics code, and duties and responsibilities. That's separate to the person. You know, we have We don't have presidents. We have prime ministers here in Canada. Prime minister is an office. I'll use Canadian politics. Prime minister is an office. You can remove the current one, and whenever we vote again, he may go back in, or it could be a different person from a different political party. Every approximately four years, we go through a voting process. And so it's the office. And anybody who steps into that office, whatever it is, prime minister, president, teacher, doctor, religious leader, has to understand that the distinction between their own personal willpower and wants has to be aligned with that office. We don't just get into position of power and it's the three-year-old they want. You have that toy, I want that toy. One thought, yeah, okay, I want, I want, and the tantrum, well, I don't get it. And so how do we help people on both sides understand this? How do we help people who are in positions of power understand the sacredness of office, that it is its solemn duty to uphold the dignity of an office and its power? And how do we help people understand that when you, go to church or when you go in a classroom or when you, you know, join the hockey team or the soccer team or whatever it is, you have an individual right to the autonomy of yourself and that you have a right to speak up if you have concerns or questions about that and to trust your instincts and your own inner resiliency and do your best to make sure that you report any concerns. Does this make sense? It does. It's, it's on some level, isn't there a, I hesitate to say leap of faith, but doesn't there have to be some leverage and some trust going to somebody like you have to give away a little bit of your, like, let's, let's take the word surrender for a moment. We see this word put all over the world of entheogens and psychedelics and ceremony and rites of passages, this idea of surrendering power to the experience, right? But what you're simultaneously reclaiming personal agency. Yeah. But this is where it's all confused up. Okay. Yeah, totally. Yes. You're right down into the atomic level of it now. Okay. Right down to the atoms of it, which is you go into a situation that requires a certain level of trust. Can I give you a silly example? Okay. My dear, dear friend, dermatologist of thirty five years who diagnosed and saw me through I had cancer thirty some years ago has retired last year and so you know she gave me a copy of my file and wished me good luck and I thanked her and wrote her a lovely card and wished her well in her retirement and I thought boo hoo I've got to find a new dermatologist okay so I got a referral to one and I thought well being a woman and because I had melanoma I have to have like the full body screen maybe I'd prefer a woman at my age you know and so I got a referral and went to my appointment to see this doctor. And she walks in and there's, you know, I'm down to the little gown. Okay. And she walks in and there's somebody behind her. There's another woman, but there's somebody behind her. And I say, good morning, doctor. I won't say her name. And it was like, good morning. And so I waited and I looked at the person behind her and I said, good morning. And who are you? There's no way I was going to have there in that little blue and laid down. I was just going to surrender and allow, you know, I mean the back of my head, I'm assuming it's a medical student shadowing her. That's my assumption. But I was putting my boundary very nicely, very respectfully. I was putting my boundary down. I'm going to be like basically naked in front of it. One stranger is bad enough, okay, but a stranger I'm not even introduced to? Now, the burden of duty should have been on her. Maybe she's busy, stretched, whatever, to say good morning to me. With me today is Dr. So-and-so, medical student, doing her residency in dermatology. She's shadowing me today. That would have been the right thing to do. to keep the power balance proper in the room. It fell on me. Fortunately, because of all my work, I have the skills, the experience, the tools, what have you, to make sure that I don't get in an uncomfortable situation without respectfully doing my best to try and affirm it. And so that's how even small little situations like that a different person from me might have just felt like, oh, I'm in a doctor's office and they're a doctor and I have to do what they say and I can't question them. And needless to say, I got a different referral to another doctor. She was so brisk and rough and, and fine. I was like, okay, thank you so much. Have a great, thank you for seeing me today. Bye. I know we're done. So, you know, it, It's those moments, small little things, small little encounters where you just calmly and quietly lean into your confidence, lean into your knowingness of who I am. I'm a person who deserves respect the way all people do. I don't deserve more respect than you do. Equal respect. So all these little situations where you are unconsciously demeaned, diminished, how do we learn to manage them? With respect, kindness, and if possible, a little sense of humor. And then when we find ourselves in a situation, do we ask ourselves, okay, what do I learn about how I got here? okay, maybe I shouldn't have left the club with that rock star and decided to go to an after party. You know, rethinking our decision process. And I'm not blaming victims. You should be able to be free to go places and walk down the street and, you know, go into a club without someone slipping a roofie in it. You should be able to enjoy your life and live. And at the same time, there has to be some kind of common sense involved in which we're aware of our environment and not in a fearful way, but that we are aware of our environment. We are aware that not all people are asking or acting with the highest of intentions and the best motivations that some people will have ulterior motives or hidden agendas. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. On that note, I asked you before we started saying that there's something it'll probably be hitting, you know, there's statements being, letters being published about it and stuff like that. I've even written an open letter on the situation. And here's a perfect example of the next level of this. kind of power, the right use of power, the appropriate use of power, the responsible use, recognizing our own personal power, recognizing the power of offices and being able to make a distinction of what's healthy and what's right. A police officer has the right to stop you and give you a ticket if you've just gone through a red light. That office, okay, gives them that power to do that. It doesn't give them the power to yank you out of your car and drop you on the floor and put their foot on your neck, okay? So, I mean, unless you're waving a gun at them or something. So there's degrees of understanding what an office is. It's the office power, it's the personal power, and there's people who misuse the office for personal power. whatever the office is. So we read about all these scandals, about people who are in a business, and then it finds out they've been embezzling, abuse of power. People in different situations where they've taken advantage. So there's deep learning on both sides about how do we do what we can do to ensure the well-being and the health of ourselves and our loved ones, our communities. to ensure ethics and good standards. And at the same time, be mindful that not everybody's thinking the same thing. So we have a situation. There is a church, a church in Rio de Janeiro. As I said, this information is already being posted in many sites. So I'm not doing any disclosures that are in any way under some... non-disclosure agreement. And we had a form of affiliation with them until two thousand and two. So that was twenty two years ago. We closed with them and we closed with that center because of serious concerns about abuse of power and what appeared to be on many levels, not just sexual. There was accounts of non-consensual sexual contact and other serious issues that were concerned. So as I became aware of them, I wrote a book of ethics. I sat down with senior people. I shared my concerns and my complaints and did what I felt was in my ballpark to speak up to and speak to. And I had been inspired, and I think I mentioned this before, by Jack Kornfield's book, The Ethics of No, not The Ethics of Care. Yeah, The Ethics of Care, I think it's called. And, you know, that's kind of a tale of his book. After the Ecstasy, the Laundry is Jack Kornfield. So there's two of his books on ethics. So he'd written his book around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, around, I'm so inspired by your book. I've written a code of ethics. Can I send it to you? Can you please read it and see, did I leave anything out or what have you? So he answered me back and said, no, it's, it's just fine. The way it is is perfect. I hope everybody receives it. So on that note, in two thousand, I'd taken down this code of ethics saying, hey guys, just because I didn't understand so much about the culture, I didn't understand the language. So it took a while for me to catch on about some of the things that were happening. And this is a reality. I was at an age and have a certain kind of personality. Nobody's going to really try that stuff on with me. Okay. Um, I also I'm single sacrament. I don't take cannabis. And that was another very serious concern was the misuse of cannabis by people in that center. I'm very much single sacrament. I'm not against cannabis plant that has medicinal. certainly medicinal powers to it, and it can be used for many reasons by different people to help them in different situations and with health conditions. Just not with the daimyo. That's all. That's all. It's the teachings of Master Ernie. He himself said, it's a teaching plant, it's a power plant, but not with the daimyo. We have one sacrament, that's our sacrament. So in two thousand and two, when it looked like things were not going to be changing, we closed with that syndrome. And every couple of years, there would be more things coming through here and there, another story, another thing. And part of the big problem is another problem that just simply has to be spoken of and is being spoken of. You know, in Canada, the, you know, abuses of power are no longer being tolerated. But what also is not being tolerated is covering up. The people who cover all the abuses of power should be held accountable for covering them. You know, and there's many stories of this, you know, of people covering up. I mean, you may remember it wasn't that long ago a number of Catholic bishops resigned. They said, we knew about this and we didn't think, so we are doing what we should have done. We didn't speak up, so now we must resign. I thought that's admirable. They've finally done the right thing. It's not like we did this and we didn't work. And, you know, and it takes us, you know, so finally now, in all of these previous circumstances, some of which I did my very best, even though we were no longer affiliated, I did my very best writing at large to the Santo Daino community, explaining our culture won't accept this. These things are crimes. In our country, these things would be crimes. This will be damaging to the Santo Daimini stuff, et cetera, et cetera. Usually what happens is that I would get a campaign of darkness against me, okay, which is fine. You know, I said what I needed to say, and it's all okay. But finally now, you know, and women would be persuaded not to. It would be manipulated, lied to, cover up, all kinds of things would happen. Okay, finally one woman, she had enough. And she was a member in that congregation, also worked for this particular leader. And she's now got a lawsuit against him. So finally, so she has our full support. We've written a public letter, open letter, in full support of her and applauding her efforts and encouraging her and trying to let her know and the community know that she's doing the right thing. that nobody should be interfering with manipulations lies and covering up and so it's it's a sad moment but it's been a long time coming and people who think that they can eventually the truth makes room for itself so if anybody here is in a situation if anybody's listening or watching this and they're and you're in a situation where on your either on one side of the equation or the other. If you're aware that you are misusing your personal power in an office of responsibility, please stop. Think of the consequences to you, to your family, to the people that you're supposed to be serving. Stop. Clean up. If you are in a situation where you are being taken advantage of on some level in any way, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, sexually, et cetera, financially. Stop. Ask for help. Speak to people that you trust. Let them know what's happening. And that's the only way this whole movement is going to go forward because I don't think a month passes that there isn't another scandal about money, about sex, about other substances, about something. So it's a bit sad to have to talk about this, serious and sad, but let's end it on an up note, okay? Let's end it with positivity. I believe that if enough people are willing to tell the truth and stand confident and resilient in the truth, then over time, over time, the force of goodwill using good intention and healthy power will bring enough awareness to the entheogenic psychedelic movement that enough people of good intentions and consciousness we will be able to keep the movement alive and healthy and that there will be good results for people good benefits for people you join me in that yeah I agree. I think that there's always a chance of a death and birth. That's why it's a miracle. And when you see a movement, there's always a chance that it can not be born in the way that you would hope for. And I think that there's a real... trying to keep it on the positive. No, there's a real opportunity that something could happen here. And it's the cult of charisma. It is the call of, you know, the darker forces for lack of a better term, like the greed, the selfishness, the, the, the, I am the medicine versus the medicine being the medicine out there. But there are so many good people out there that are fundamentally changing who they are as individuals to become the best person they can be. And that is contagious. That is a fire that spreads to other people. And it brings that light up to a level where other people can find it. I believe wholeheartedly that, that fire is raging and we can continue to blow on it and create that spark that other people can see. Yes, absolutely. What you just said reminds me so much of a, of a letter that Clarissa Pinkola Estes wrote. It's called a letter to a young man in troubled times. It is so powerful and so beautiful that I've taken excerpts and actually read them in difficult moments to our congregation because it's, She talks basically about, you know, we're kind of like beings of light. And it's like we're sailing on a ship through a troubled sea. And we're willing to throw out a hand to those in need. But you have to have the will to come on board. You have to have the will to come on board. That's it. That's beautiful. Yeah, for all. So, yeah, Google it, you know. Google it. I will. Clarissa Pencolaste has a letter to a young man in troubled times. I think it's called this very well-known writing of hers. And it's powerful. And, you know, it doesn't matter when she wrote it because there's always a troubled time, you know. Yeah. There's always troubles. There's always troubles. And only as we, you know, we're going to circle right back to only as we decide that the light within us is so precious that we will keep it lit. And that we will take responsibility for what is ours. That includes what I go along with. You know, what I cooperate with. What I say yes to. That's my responsibility. And my thoughts, my words, my actions are mine. And so may all people, you know, may all people keep the light on within them lit be filled with confidence hope resiliency to let troubled days come and know okay okay this was a hard day but it's okay I'm still here I'm still here fighting the good fight yep living the truth living my truth serving where I can receiving where it's appropriate. Well, it's always a joy to hang out with you. It was a difficult topic. What? Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. It was a difficult topic. And I think just one that's needed in this time, you know, and the kind of thing that It just needs to be honestly and openly talked about. We all are human. We all have strengths. We all have shortcomings. And we have to just acknowledge that and work with it. So until the next time, it's been a great pleasure. Yes. Indeed, everybody within the sound of our voice, if you enjoyed the conversation we had today, go down to the show notes, check out Dr. Jessica's website, check out her books. They're like a cartography for the mind. I promise you, you will not be disappointed. And join us next, the first Tuesday of every month. And before I let you go, though, Dr. Jessica, do you have anything coming up or anything that you are excited for? Well, I'm excited to be able to use my left arm again. I'm hoping to get back into the swimming pool to get the okay for my daughter. Boy, it's been like six weeks. I've got another two and a half weeks to go before I get the okay to get back in the pool. So I know that sounds silly, but that's really exciting for me. I'm a swimmer. It's been so good to be out of. The other thing that was fun was I spent the afternoon yesterday at McGill. I'd been invited to participate. They have kind of a one day as part of the McGill Medical School. And they have a one day program. I want to give a shout out to Dr. Roger. Roger Gosch. And I was with Dr. Harvey Chang, a very good friend, colleague. He worked with our team on antigens and psychedelics proposals. in Canada, a proposal for a new paradigm. He is a team leader of palliative care at one of our Montreal hospitals. And so there's an interest. So here I get invited as part of the stay on medicine, spirituality, religion, teaching med students how to recognize their own biases. So this is the first time that an entheogen religion has been invited to participate in this. It was an interesting day because we rotated in and out, in and then onto three different classrooms full of students doing the spiel in each, you know, in each one. So that was really interesting. And I have to say that I've never seen so many, because I'm used to lecturing to believers, you know, the people who come to my lectures and, you know, what have you is they know what it's about and they want to hear it. Whereas this is, a mandatory class. And so what was terrific is that some of this, when I asked him on the other biases and you get a patient in, so we used to do a occasion, a case study with an imaginary real, actually real, not imaginary real. So I had a member of our congregation who reached do it, who had a medical condition and write all about it. And now she believed her, what role her faith played in, in her medical condition. And so we talked about all of that and I had questions to engage the students and they were, okay, what kind of bias do you think you might have against a patient that comes in who's actually taking an entheogen as a sacrament and who believes that they're receiving insights about how to work with their own physical body and their illness? How are you going to respond and what are you going to ask about that? What are your biases? It was very interesting hearing some of the questions. It's kind of like drugs in church. So trying to cope them into, because I said to them, listen, psychedelics and clinical and research and palliative care, they're going to be used. You're going to, in the coming years, you're going to find you're going to have more and more patients who have experience with this and who might want your support and you learning to ask the good questions are going to be helpful. So it's very interesting, the avenues that are opening up and the opportunities to educate. Yeah, that is fascinating. See you in December. Wishing you a beautiful month. You're doing such great work. Congratulations on... You know, the ongoing success and interest in your wonderful podcast is always a joy. Thank you very much. And I will hang on briefly afterwards to everyone within the sound of my voice. I hope you have a beautiful day. And that's all we got. Aloha.