This week we’re taking on the biggest question of the separation: should I stay or should I go? To help, we welcome Kate Anthony, host of the New York Times recommended podcast, The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast, and certified coach with over a decade’s worth of experience helping women make this decision for themselves.
The process can be messy, but Kate has a few key questions that help us make sense of the emotional process of letting go of the relationship. Are you giving up too soon? Is there anything else you should try? Will your divorce screw up your kids? Is it OK to be treated as you’re being treated in the marriage? We dig into each of these questions and take a sobering side trip into the troubled marriage sex life all this week in the Toaster!
Four Questions: Is there one more thing I should try?
Four Questions: Is it okay that he treats me like this?
Four Questions: Does divorce really screw up kids?
Rebuilding Trust
Last Thoughts
Wrapping Up
This week we’re taking on the biggest question of the separation: should I stay or should I go? To help, we welcome Kate Anthony, host of the New York Times recommended podcast, The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast, and certified coach with over a decade’s worth of experience helping women make this decision for themselves.
Show Notes
This week we’re taking on the biggest question of the separation: should I stay or should I go? To help, we welcome Kate Anthony, host of the New York Times recommended podcast, The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast, and certified coach with over a decade’s worth of experience helping women make this decision for themselves.
The process can be messy, but Kate has a few key questions that help us make sense of the emotional process of letting go of the relationship. Are you giving up too soon? Is there anything else you should try? Will your divorce screw up your kids? Is it OK to be treated as you’re being treated in the marriage? We dig into each of these questions and take a sobering side trip into the troubled marriage sex life all this week in the Toaster!
Podcaster and co-host, Pete Wright brings years of marriage and a spirit of curiosity to the divorce process. He's spent the last two decades interviewing experts and thinkers in emotional healing and brings that with him to the law, divorce, and saving relationships in the process.
Host
Seth R. Nelson
Seth Nelson is the founding attorney and managing partner at NLG Divorce & Family Law. He is a Tampa-based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems.
Producer
Andy Nelson
Hailing from nearly 25 years in the world of film, television, and commercial production, Andy has always had a passion for storytelling, no matter the size of the package.
What is How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships?
Seth Nelson is a Tampa based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems. In How to Split a Toaster, Nelson and co-host Pete Wright take on the challenge of divorce with a central objective — saving your most important relationships with your family, your former spouse, and yourself.
Pete Wright:
Welcome to how to split a toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. Today, when do you leave your toaster?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm Seth Nelson, and I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Today, we're taking on the biggest question of the separation. Should I stay or should I go? To help, we have the host of the New York Times recommended podcast, the divorce Survival Guide Podcast, a certified coach with over a decade's worth of experience helping women with children in particular, making this decision for themselves.
Seth Nelson:
Kate Anthony, welcome to the toaster.
Kate Anthony:
Thanks so much for having me, guys.
Pete Wright:
This is gonna be a great conversation. I think I wanna start with what I imagine is the most important question for us. How does one become a New York Times recommended podcast on divorce?
Kate Anthony:
I I honestly yeah. They suddenly, I get an email saying, hey. We're doing this this, you know, lineup of pandemic podcasts, which is hilarious that they Yes. Included the the, you know, divorce, podcast in the in their lineup. And
Pete Wright:
Number one pandemic related activity for couples.
Kate Anthony:
A 100%. Right? How much did it go up? Like, 53%?
Pete Wright:
Like Rough year, everybody.
Kate Anthony:
Rough year. Really good year for us, but really rough year for those out there. It was
Pete Wright:
a great year for me.
Seth Nelson:
I loved
Pete Wright:
it. Right.
Seth Nelson:
I've started a chemical lab.
Pete Wright:
You created a virus.
Seth Nelson:
Oh. Don't blame it on China.
Pete Wright:
As with as with the most weird things, it started in Tampa. Okay. Florida man accused. Florida. Oh, come on.
Pete Wright:
Seriously, we are delighted to have you here, Kate. This is just great, and, I've been listening to your show and love what you do. And I I think well, start with the question on all of our minds, especially, me and Seth as the, 2 men on the show. Why are men so messed up?
Kate Anthony:
Oh my god. Not that we wanna make this a
Pete Wright:
terribly gendered show, but this is kinda your bailiwick.
Kate Anthony:
The it kind of I guess it is. Right? I mean, listen, I love men. I love men. And I and I want so much more for them than they seem to get in our society, in our culture.
Kate Anthony:
Right? And it's not I don't know that it's that men are messed up. It's that society is has told men that the ways to get unmessed up, right, are not for them. Right? So, like, I we want you to be in therapy and in coaching and to do all of these things to work on your shit.
Kate Anthony:
So men are really taught by, the patriarchy, by by our culture, that they're not allowed to go to therapy. That if they do, they're like, you know, pussies. They should, you know, man up and just handle it, suck it up, deal. And it's left this sort of gaping hole, I think, in the last, probably, 2 decades. We've had this real sort of upswing in personal development where, you know, therapy is so much more readily available to every, you know, almost everybody.
Kate Anthony:
And now, we have online platforms that really are trying to make it accessible to everybody. We have coaching. We have all of these personal development programs available, and so much of it is consumed by women.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, absolutely, Kate. I see it all the time when you just look at the search divorce podcast. It's all women helping women. There's very few male voices out there.
Kate Anthony:
Right. And so there's this gap. Right? And it's a it's widening. It's widening, and it's widening.
Kate Anthony:
And, you know, 69% of divorces are initiated by women. And I saw I heard a really shocking statistic about this recently that 25% of those have actually been to marriage counseling. And I have, that's that just completely blows my mind. And but 6 the those 69% of women have been asking for so long. So, you know
Seth Nelson:
Well, that's one of your podcasts. Right? And now he's gonna go to therapy?
Kate Anthony:
Right. It is one of my podcast episodes because then what happens is we break up with them or we leave them, and then they're like, wait wait wait wait wait wait. Hold on a minute. Now I'll go to therapy. And the problem is that women are when women are done, we're done.
Kate Anthony:
Like, you've never seen something so done as a woman who's done. Right?
Seth Nelson:
Well, I'll tell you, you you've touched on a little thing that I teach my 17 year old son. I tell him 2 things. I said, 1, I love men too. And he looked at me crazy. Like, are you about to tell me that you're gay dad, which is fine.
Seth Nelson:
Nothing wrong with that. But you have your girlfriend. I'm a little confused. I said, no, because men set the bar so low. Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
A guy like me can look good in front of women. Like there's some basic things that I can do that are really simple. Right. And it makes it super easy. And the other thing is that we talk about this all the time and my girlfriend gives me points for this.
Seth Nelson:
I never defend the male race. I just say there's sometimes exceptions to the rule. Because generally speaking, I think guys just get it wrong based on what you're saying with the patriarchy and how you gotta man up and you gotta be tough and gotta be the, the provider. And there's all these societal pressures that women are not assigning those roles to men now, and the men are still trying to fit into that role, and it's just not working.
Kate Anthony:
And we're doing so much more now, you know, as women, like, the emotional labor, the mental load, like, all of that stuff is real and we're exhausted, and we really want partnership. Like, we crave it. We just want partnership. We want you to step up. We want you to go to therapy and deal with your trauma and, like, yeah, I know it's hard, but, like, you know, cry me a river doing it too so that we can have a healthy happy relationship.
Kate Anthony:
Like, isn't that what we want? But I have heard a number of men say, I would rather get divorced than go to therapy. And that is really oh, yeah. Yeah. They're scared.
Kate Anthony:
I think they're scared. I I don't think they would admit that they're scared, but I think they're scared and they're terrified, which makes sense. Like, get it. It is scary. It is.
Kate Anthony:
Yeah. But really? Like, really? I know. You'd rather lose your entire family.
Kate Anthony:
I swear I swear I've heard this more than once. They'd rather lose their entire and here's the thing. Someone will actually come out and say it. Right? They'll come out and say, like, I would rather get divorced and lose my entire family than go to therapy.
Pete Wright:
I'd I'd rather set myself on fire than get divorced at this especially after, like, seasons of this podcast. Like, that I it it is unfathomable to me.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. I tell Pete how awful divorce litigation is, so he's staying married no matter what now.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. No. I'm I'm definitely fine.
Kate Anthony:
Yes. Exactly. Wow.
Pete Wright:
It's that's, interesting. This this fear of therapy is a really interesting concept to me. Right? Why why is it so hard for men to look inside, right, rather than just become indignant and just kind of, you know, stonewall it. And I feel like some of this is the echoes of toxicity that live in all of us.
Pete Wright:
Absolutely. Some of these habits are incredibly hard to break even if we're not overtly toxic in our behavior. It it some of these are are generations old behaviors that we're trying to un untether.
Kate Anthony:
Listen. And it's hard work, and it's scary, and it's exhausting, and it, you know, it can it can tear you to shreds. Like, it's a pan it can be a Pandora's box, and I get it. Like, it is it is hard, or they don't see the need, or they had a really, really, really bad therapist once.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kate Anthony:
And they have genuine concern. And we still have to do this work if we wanna have healthy relationships. Right? Because we we each come to the relationship with with a bunch of baggage that we may be conscious or unconscious of, and we gotta unpack that shit.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kate Anthony:
We have to. Otherwise, like, the 2 pieces, they don't, like, just look. When we first start dating, we're like, oh, look. We just fit so perfectly together and all. I don't know.
Kate Anthony:
Like right? Like, that's not true. Yeah. Because then over time, we're like, oh, look. This doesn't actually fit as well as I thought.
Pete Wright:
Well and I guess it gets back to this just this question on your point, which is that, you know, how many marriages begin to dissolve because it's easy for the traditionally male partner to, become complacent in routine. Right? And change Yes. Doing the work, showing up, getting you know, figuring out how to get out of the day to day buckle shuffle of leave, go to work, drive around, do the job, come home, expect dinner, eat dinner, some of the traditional roles, or just doing maybe the males coming home and cooking dinner and doing those things, but the routine is incredibly difficult to break.
Kate Anthony:
Yeah. Absolutely. Sure.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Well, that's the other thing. It's like, when does a groove become a rut?
Pete Wright:
Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
Like, hey. We're in a groove. Things are going well, and now it's a rut. We've been doing the same thing. We've had every date night for Wednesday night, so we're doing the same date.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Can't we do something different? But for a while, it's like, woah. We got date night.
Kate Anthony:
Right. Right? And even when it works, like can can I talk about sex for a minute? I don't know why I have this, like
Pete Wright:
I'm sorry. Would you
Seth Nelson:
Why do you whisper?
Pete Wright:
Kate, would you please talk about sex for a minute? So Well, like Hold on.
Seth Nelson:
I'm sorry. I'm gonna take that. I'm gonna take smoking back
Pete Wright:
up now. I I don't
Kate Anthony:
know why this just popped into my head, but I think this groove to a rut thing is relevant. Like, I remember dating this guy. Great guy. And we had really, really, really good sex, like, probably some of the best sex I've ever had, but it was always the same. And it was but it was very efficient.
Kate Anthony:
Very efficient. Like, he's the kind of guy that when he learns to cook a steak and perfects the art of cooking a steak, that is how he cooks a steak from here to eternity.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Kate Anthony:
So very efficient in the sex department. We know really learned how to cook my steak. And
Pete Wright:
I'm sorry. I have to write down the title of our show. Cooking steak with Katie
Kate Anthony:
Anthony. Sister.
Seth Nelson:
I thought it was gonna be when a groove becomes a rut. Now that's out.
Kate Anthony:
So you get my point. Right? And that's when the groove becomes the rut. It's like,
Pete Wright:
it's Yeah.
Kate Anthony:
Good, but, like, it's it's boring.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Kate Anthony:
It doesn't work anymore.
Pete Wright:
Anyway Okay. Well I digress. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. A a subtle chill has come over the room.
Seth Nelson:
Thanks for tuning in to how to split a toaster, a divorce podcast about Kate Anthony's former sex offender.
Pete Wright:
And unrelated, her former partner is actually holding workshops at www. Look. I have this I I wanna pivot, because and I think the time is right. Please be fair. Right right on your website, you have these 4 questions, and I wonder if we could just walk through them very quickly.
Pete Wright:
And and I'd like both of your perspectives, one from the the the divorce attorney and one from the coach. Here we are. Number 1, am I giving up too soon? Now in the context of this, you know, groove becomes a rut, that question's really important. How do you know when it's time to move?
Kate Anthony:
Well, I would say that, you know, for women in particular. Right? We've been agon usually agonizing over this question for so long, and we tend to think that there's just one more thing we haven't tried. There's one magic bullet and we just haven't quite found what it is. Right?
Kate Anthony:
And, if that's sort of your thinking, then it's probably time. Right? If you're if if you've tried everything, you think you've tried everything, but then you're scared that, like, but if I stop now, that one thing that was gonna change everything is just on the other side of that bend in the road. It's not. It's not.
Kate Anthony:
So that's how I would answer that.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Seth. If you're talking to a lawyer, it's time. And I'm not joking. No.
Seth Nelson:
I mean, I cannot tell you how many people have come to my office. And when I asked them, is this something that you want to do? Are you sure you wanna go down this path? And they'll waffle. Yes, no, maybe.
Seth Nelson:
I'm still I'm just getting information because things aren't good. I wanna know what my rights are. What does this look like? And these are all legitimate, very well thought out. Someone's being prepared.
Seth Nelson:
I I love these questions. They're they're great. And you need the answers to these questions. The question I asked back is, do you wanna feel the way you feel now a year from now or 2 years from now? The answer is always no.
Pete Wright:
And I
Seth Nelson:
said, well, then something has to change. And either you guys need to get that working in your marriage or you need to move on.
Pete Wright:
So the you've you guys, I think, have both answered the the next question, but I'm I'm if you have anything else to add, question is, is there one more thing I should try?
Kate Anthony:
Right. That was right.
Pete Wright:
I That was the answer to the first question.
Kate Anthony:
Yeah. If you're listen. People in healthy, happy marriages are not googling, should I say or should I go, and landing on my website at 3 o'clock in the morning. Mhmm. Right?
Kate Anthony:
So probably not.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Seth, is that one more thing, divorce?
Seth Nelson:
I think that there is no one more thing. It's I'll ask them, have you done everything? Not what the other person done. Have you done everything where you can lay your head on the pillow at night? And some of the answers I get will be shocking.
Seth Nelson:
It would be so much easier if he just hit me because then I could leave.
Pete Wright:
I hear
Kate Anthony:
it all the time.
Seth Nelson:
And I, and I will say here, I'm gonna repeat back what you just told me. You wish that you were a victim of domestic violence because that's what you need to leave a marriage. Wow. That's what that saying means. And to me, I'm like, if you're at that point, if those thoughts are in your head, it's okay to leave a guy that is a nice guy.
Seth Nelson:
It's okay. As Kate Anthony might say to leave a guy that knows how to cook a steak one way. Okay. But you don't have to have a reason to leave.
Kate Anthony:
That's right.
Seth Nelson:
If you are unhappy, if this relationship doesn't work for you, no matter what all the other people in your world are gonna say, how can you leave him? He's a good provider. How can you leave? He's so good with the kids. You guys look so happy.
Seth Nelson:
None of that matters. It is what is inside of you. So if you were telling yourself, if only x would happen, then I could leave, there is no one more thing to try.
Kate Anthony:
That's right. I hear that same thing too. If I wish you would cheat. I wish you would hit me. So then I can then I would feel like I can leave.
Kate Anthony:
And I think that this is a problem with that women have is that we don't actually know that we have choice. We don't know that we get to say. We don't feel free to make these choice for ourselves. And and by the way, I work with women who have been hit, who have been cheated on, and they're still struggling with the question just as much, if not more, than someone who's just not happy in a in a marriage. Right?
Kate Anthony:
Because then there's the cycle there's there's the abuse. There's there's the emotional, psychological manipulation that goes along with all of that. It's not hitting and is not sort of, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's a whole world of abuse trapped in. Control.
Kate Anthony:
And it's
Seth Nelson:
It's one part of the control.
Kate Anthony:
It is one part of the control. And so if you think that that would make things better in in a very weird twisted way that I that I do hear all the time, but it won't it won't make it clearer. It certainly would not make it clearer. That relationship is far more complex.
Pete Wright:
Well, that lack of clarity, I think, is really important, and it leads to the 2 grand fears. Right? I'm I'm terrified to stay. I'm terrified to leave. Right?
Pete Wright:
And and what are the things what are the knock on sort of behaviors that that erupt when you stay because you're terrified of leaving?
Seth Nelson:
What I would tell you is on those behaviors is you start trying to adapt and explain and make excuses. And the reason people stay is because it's the default. They know what it feels like when they hear all the horror stories about divorce and divorce happens in clusters. So when they see their friend go through it, but they're a year or 2 out and now they're a different person, they've got their step back, their, their, the, the, the light is in their eyes again, their face isn't like depressed, they're, they're, they're alive again, then those friends will be like, there is something on the other side, but all they see is the fear of the divorce, the unknown, and they will believe things that are just not true because, oh, well, my spice says I'm not gonna get into the kids. Or, you know, you had a DUI once, you'll never see your kids again.
Seth Nelson:
And then that's fear. Right? That's a manipulation. That's fear. And that person will then stay.
Kate Anthony:
That's right. Yep. Totally agree. Totally agree with that. It's, the the the manipulation that comes out that we believe.
Kate Anthony:
Right? We believe those things. Like my I hear it all the time in my Facebook group. I I told my husband I wanted a divorce, and he said that I wouldn't get custody of the kids, or he said that I wouldn't get the house, or he said that I would get and I'm like, have you consulted with an attorney? Because what he's saying is not true is not factually correct, and he's using this as another control manipulation tactic.
Kate Anthony:
So get the facts, educate yourself, consult with an attorney, learn the the laws in your state.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, there it is, Pete. Check your local jurisdiction.
Pete Wright:
Check your local jurisdiction. Oh, I need a bell, you guys. I need a bell.
Seth Nelson:
Absolutely. Well, I play you know, I jokingly call it a game with my clients when this happens. I say, okay, we're gonna play a game. The game's called bullshit. You're gonna tell me what your spouse says, and I'm gonna do a flow a quick analysis of Florida family law, and I'm gonna tell you my legal analysis.
Seth Nelson:
Yep. And they'll say I had a DUI 4 years ago before the children were born. He says, I'm never gonna get my children again. Bullshit. Tell me what's next.
Seth Nelson:
And they catch on real quick on how this game is played. And once they can actually hear it, digest it and realize when they are confronted with those types of statements, I tell them practice playing the game in your head.
Kate Anthony:
That's right.
Seth Nelson:
And then we'll we'll deal with the issues as they come up.
Kate Anthony:
I love that. Because this
Pete Wright:
is how gaslighting works. Right? This is how gaslighting works. It is to create a culture of perceived fear. Fear that, you know, if if we divorce, the kids are gonna be totally screwed up.
Pete Wright:
You can't leave me because you're gonna destroy the kids. Right? You can't leave me because you're yeah. You're not trying hard enough, or I'm not trying hard enough. I'm either failing my marriage, so by divorcing, or I'm failing my life by leaving.
Pete Wright:
And those are conditioned responses to to those sorts of behaviors.
Kate Anthony:
And they're all bullshit. And it is. It is you know, gaslighting is making you feel like you're the crazy one when you're having when you, like, look things up and you're having a rational, reasonable response to something and someone tells you that you're crazy or that never happened or whatever. Right? And then you start to believe that you are the crazy one.
Kate Anthony:
And it's I'm I mean, I've experienced it myself. It's it's horrifying. It's confusing.
Seth Nelson:
Kate, you immediately said when when Pete said, does divorce always screw up your kids? You you played my game and immediately said bullshit. So talk to us about that. What's your what's your views on that?
Kate Anthony:
The research bears out that divorce doesn't screw up kids. How we do divorce screws up kids or can screw up kids. If you engage in a, you know, fairly amicable, you know, non contentious, you know, somewhat collaborative divorce, and you center your children, if you really put your children at the center of everything, all your decisions, all of that, your your kid you're not gonna screw up your kids. If you consult with coaches and, you know, therapists and all of the things, that doesn't screw up kids. They will in the short term, they'll be bummed.
Kate Anthony:
They will definitely be impacted. Of course, they will. But will they go on to have long term psychological damage and become drug addicts and drop out of high school? Like, no. The research shows that the kids that end up with those long term impacts are the kids that were put in the middle of nasty, bitter litigations that were that were used as pawns and that were, you know, really sort of destroyed in the process.
Kate Anthony:
And these you know, they have parents who are putting their anger before their kids. I mean, it's a it's a whole sort of soup of what what ends up happening.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And that's what I tell clients. Right? Love your kid more than you hate your ex.
Kate Anthony:
That's right. Absolutely. I always say put your kids at the center, not in the middle.
Seth Nelson:
That's what you gotta do.
Kate Anthony:
That's that's what you gotta do. You're doing that. And only and, you know, and it's possible for only one of you to be doing that. Right? The other thing that people say to me all the time is, but I'm divorcing a narcissist.
Kate Anthony:
He's abusive. Like, if I stay, then I can, like, you know, mitigate and I can control and I can and I can help protect my kids. And what I say to that is, bullshit. That when you stay in an abusive relationship like that, what you're doing is condoning it. You're not protecting them from anything.
Kate Anthony:
They see everything. They are still impacted by it. If you leave, you create a safe environment for them even if it's only 50% of the time, even if it's only 25% of the time. They have somewhere safe to go where they can fully express themselves, where they are taught that that is not okay. If they stay, that's the reality they live in.
Kate Anthony:
Right? This this this abuse is the air that they breathe And that's when they will listen. If you don't divorce, you know, a situation like this, if you don't divorce for yourself, at least do it for your kids because they will repeat those patterns. This is this is their relationship model that you are handing them.
Pete Wright:
Best case made for divorce, pro divorce.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Well, it it it comes back to my view, Pete, on this where I talk to my clients about their relationship with their children. That's the interest when you're getting a divorce. It's not the time that you get. It's what you do with that time.
Seth Nelson:
And when I talk about a relationship with your children, I'm talking about when they're 810 and 18 and 20 and, wait for it, 28 and 30 and on and on.
Pete Wright:
Seth, this gets to something we've talked to in the past that just I think just clicked for me, which is why kids, older kids, like older teens, get so angry when they find out their parents had had a rough relationship and divorced, but waited until they graduated from high school or college to do it. It and and they're furious because the kids already knew things were bad. Right? I don't have a a lot of data on this, but my hunch is the kids already had that pattern. They already knew things were rough.
Pete Wright:
Why were you lying to us about it the whole time?
Seth Nelson:
Absolutely. And that's where they kinda take it on on both. And the parent says, look, we did the best we could. Yeah. And there's then this stuff when they're later in life.
Seth Nelson:
Right? Because look, I can go in and I'll litigate a case. No problem. It's harder to settle a case because people are relying on my advice and counsel. When I'm litigating, you wanna take this position as long as it's not frivolous and I have a legal basis to do it.
Seth Nelson:
I'll go in there and I'll, I'll carry that sword and I'll charge up that hill with you. And then I get to tell you that the judge got it wrong. Or I get to tell you, I told you we had a very slim chance of winning that argument. Okay. But when you're talking about kids and you're arguing for 5050, and the offer on the table is that she has 60 and you have 40 or vice versa, If you can't build that relationship with your child having 40% of the time, let me tell you the extra 10% isn't gonna help you one bit.
Pete Wright:
Let's, let's pivot a little bit as we as we get toward our, the 3rd act of our episode here, which is, rebuilding after some days. We've got the coach here. Let's talk about the coach. Coach, tell us a little bit about trust because so much of, successful separation seems to revolve around learning to trust again, trusting your senses, your instincts, yourself, and rebuilding trust perhaps with your kids. How do you maintain this experience of trust or rebuild this experience of trust when it might be the failure of those instincts that got you to this place in the first place?
Kate Anthony:
I don't know. Let me know when the expert shows up who can tell
Pete Wright:
us. No. I'm kidding. Kidding. That's the next show.
Pete Wright:
That's the next show. Oh my god.
Kate Anthony:
I mean, it's such a great question, Pete. Like, seriously, because it's so hard. And even as a as a coach and someone with, you know, over 20 years of personal develop deep deep personal development work and therapy work and trauma work, I still struggle to trust myself and my instincts. I mean but I will say, I think the only way through it is really through it and really to address and and face head on the the trauma work, the therapy work, the coaching work, you know, consume everything you can. And I don't mean just like listening to our podcasts, which are wonderful, and they're informative and they're educational, but they speak to a particular part of our brain.
Kate Anthony:
Right? So this this is educational informative, speaks to our our frontal cortex, which is one which is great. The work that needs to be done is on the trauma centers in the brain that get triggered and take over in a in a crisis or when something happens that makes us scared. And so that work can't be done by reading books and listening to podcasts. We have to actually do the work with trained and licensed professionals.
Kate Anthony:
And the more you do that work, I mean, what happens in the brain, right, is that the more you do that work, the more you begin to make those connections between the the trauma center, the amygdala, and the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for reason, you know, emotional intelligence lives up here. And the more work we do, we're able to sort of make those connections so that when we get frightened, we can go, okay. What's really happening? You know, you're triggered. Take some time.
Kate Anthony:
Get out, you know, and then you can, you know, remove yourself from the situation and then and then assess. But if you don't do that work, you're constantly in that that triggered state where you don't have the time and the space or the capacity to fully assess whether this is a trust whether there this is a trustworthy situation. You know, like, I'm gonna freak out on some person who's really well meaning because they triggered something in me. Right? But, like, they're and now I'm like, I can't trust you.
Kate Anthony:
Meanwhile, they're perfectly trustworthy, but I'm responding and reacting from my trauma. That's not you know, so we have to do that work so that I can go, is he trustworthy? Is he not trustworthy?
Seth Nelson:
And, Pete, I think the biggest thing that I'm hearing Kate say on this, which touches me, is you have to do the work. Do.
Kate Anthony:
You have to
Seth Nelson:
You're not going around it. You're not going, you know, under it. You've gotta do it. In my own personal experience after I got divorced, which was it's crazy. I think about 15 years ago, as people know that listen to the show, I'm very close with my former spouse.
Seth Nelson:
But after we got divorced, I was like, I felt like I was living someone else's life. Like, this isn't how I had it mapped out. And I went and did the hard work. And I learned one how to be alone. I'm very social.
Seth Nelson:
I learned how to be alone and comfortable in my own skin. And I would, I learned how to cook, to learn because I need to fill up time and I didn't have a lot of money to go out at, for restaurants. So I started learning how to cook. There's all these things that I did, but also learned what were my triggers? How did they make me feel?
Seth Nelson:
Could I sense them coming on physically? Like my chest starts to get tight and it's a trigger for me. And right when I feel it, I now, instead of letting it just take over, I now can just kind of be like, Oh, I feel it what's happening. And I just do a quick, quick check-in with myself, deep breath, whatever it may be, just so I can be like, oh, okay. This really isn't about that person.
Seth Nelson:
This is about me and and how how am I about to respond to this? And I'm not perfect at it. We all slip up. It's gonna be something that people deal with every day of their lives for the remaining of their lives, but you gotta do the work.
Kate Anthony:
Amen.
Pete Wright:
I I I really like, like this and and that Kate said just listening to podcast is not doing the work. Hopefully, the podcast inspires you to do the work and to talk to the people that you need to have on your team to help you do the stuff that it feels impenetrable. And you're doing the right stuff by the end. By all means, listen to more episodes of our podcast as many times as you need to. We're not saying that.
Pete Wright:
Not at
Kate Anthony:
all. The education is important.
Pete Wright:
Listen and share broadly. Yes. Yes. Right. Right.
Pete Wright:
But this does not equate to doing the work, and that's a that's an important, part of this puzzle. This is this is great, Kate. Anything else that we, haven't covered that you feel like is really, really important that you don't wanna leave, our listeners' love on this, your first experience with the toaster of many?
Kate Anthony:
I hope so. I love you guys.
Pete Wright:
I gosh.
Seth Nelson:
She just met us, Pete. Like
Pete Wright:
I know.
Seth Nelson:
Right? It's like it's like the first date. We fit so well. We fit
Kate Anthony:
so well.
Seth Nelson:
We know it's gonna be great.
Pete Wright:
You know?
Seth Nelson:
Hey. I hear Seth likes to cook. Maybe he cooks steak.
Pete Wright:
You know?
Seth Nelson:
Like, we
Pete Wright:
have so many hopes hopes
Seth Nelson:
for this relationship. But
Pete Wright:
I just have to say right now, people don't know. We have a a 4th person on this call, Andy Nelson, who just listens to the background and kinda helps us keep the thing. Andy is beside himself right now with that comment. He is full on head in hands, does not know what to do. It's okay, Andy.
Pete Wright:
We'll recover.
Seth Nelson:
And it's Andy Nelson of no relation. I've always wanted to say that.
Kate Anthony:
You guys, I don't know that I have any other sort of I I've this has been such a great interview because it we've gone in so many different directions and, unexpected places and and the deep important places. So I, I just so appreciate the conversation. I really do. And I just love that there are, you know, more and more of us out there having these conversations and doing this work because it's so, so, so important.
Pete Wright:
Do the work. Well, we are deeply honored that you are here today. Give us the plug. Where do you want people to go to learn more about you and your fantastic work?
Kate Anthony:
Well, thank you for that. People can find me at the Divorce Survival guide podcast anywhere you, listen to podcasts. I'm at the divorce survival guide. I'm also at the divorce survival guide on Instagram and starting on TikTok. And just because I feel like, you know, okay, boomer.
Pete Wright:
Alright. Bold.
Kate Anthony:
And then I, everything links to everything is on my website which is kateanthony.com.
Pete Wright:
Beautiful. Kate Anthony, thank you so much for joining us on behalf of, Kate Anthony, and the good America's favorite family attorney, the South Nelsons right there.
Seth Nelson:
So ridiculous. Shining
Pete Wright:
he's a shining example of the field. I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next week right here on how to split a toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Coster Family Law and Mediation with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, how to split a toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Coster.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
