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"Service is how you get a product from the kitchen. What's hospitality? How do you make the recipient of that product feel?" - Paulo de Tarso"You give me 50%. I give you 50%. Together, we're a team. And that is really hospitality. It's teamwork." - Paulo de Tarso"Hospitality is to have empathy in your heart. It's to not judge. You never know what someone is going through." - Paulo de Tarso"The reason nobody ever complained about the 15 percent, where it was 12 and a half everywhere else, is because we never had a bad service." - Paulo de Tarso on Margot
The Grateful for Hospitality Podcast features candid conversations with founders, operators, and experts shaping the sector. Practical insights, honest stories and ideas to make you think.
What's the difference between service and hospitality? Service is how you get a product from H or B. What's hospitality? How do you make the the the recipient of that product feel? How do you make you feel?
Paulo de Tarso:In my first job as a busboy, I remember watching the briefing. How incredible it is to to have a business and you have two hours with the customers, but you gotta hit all the right steps completely perfect for someone to leave that that environment completely happy. I just fell in love with that process. And when they leave and and and and it's no longer a handshake, it's a kind of a hug, and you go, wow. I've I've I've made a difference today.
Paulo de Tarso:You give me 50%. I give you 50%. Together, we're a team.
Mason Potter:And that is really hospitality. It's teamwork. It's everyone working in unison. The chefs, the waiters, the commies, front of house, back of house, management, everyone, like, working together to to create this perfectionism. And so it runs like a really well oiled machine.
Mason Potter:Paulo, welcome. Grateful Hospitality. It's the space that we're using to talk about people that and their life stories where they've dedicated their life to making people feel welcome. Thank you for coming on. Good to see you again.
Paulo de Tarso:Yeah. Super excited to be here. It's a pleasure meeting you the other day and really excited about this.
Mason Potter:Good. Good. So take us back to the beginning then. You know, how did your journey start in hospitality? We wanna go through the whole timeline today, where you are now, what you're what you're doing that's exciting, but also right back to the very beginning.
Mason Potter:So tell us how how this how the journey started and how you got the itch of hospitality.
Paulo de Tarso:Okay. Great. That's a great great question. You know, it's it was all by accident, really. I a friend of mine from Brazil was going to New York, an architect, and he was opening a coffee shop.
Paulo de Tarso:Mhmm. And just playing around, I asked him if I could come. And next thing I see, I'm I'm getting my visa to go to United States, and I we opened up this coffee shop in Brooklyn. And I just fell in love with the entire process
Mason Potter:Mhmm.
Paulo de Tarso:Of of of finding a location and then designing the place, which was not me, of of course, him, but just going to the steps of what we're gonna do, what are we gonna offer. And then to the last part, when you see customer coming in into the environment and trying something that that that we made. And and and and that for me, it was incredible. But that business, it was only around for little bit over eighteen months. My one one of the business partner fell fell kinda in love with my my friend, and he didn't he didn't want that relationship.
Paulo de Tarso:So he decided to go back to Brazil. So I went on to I wanted to stay. So I I you know, my my English was very broken. I didn't really have a CV. You know?
Paulo de Tarso:I very young, 15, 16 years old. And I I went looking for a job, and I got a job as a dishwasher in in in a in a Japanese restaurant in Soho. And and then it it lasted a few months. And I remember one night taking out the rubbish, cut my both legs. The next morning, they fired me.
Paulo de Tarso:And I was shocked, but at the same time, I I remember walking down the streets, getting a bagel and a coffee, and looking at the newspaper. And I went to Columbus Avenue where I I I wanted to be a busboy. I wanna be a commie, not no longer in the kitchen at all. And I looked I I I walked up and down and until I found a job. And I got a call, I started my journey there.
Paulo de Tarso:And for me, that was that was that was the moment where I I had a I had a great uniform. I was able to speak with people. I was able to make a difference on my welcome, and and and I that was the minute that I kinda fell in love with hospitality. I I I love the Internet interaction not only with my team, but with customers. And then when I realized that I was getting good and the money also in front of the house, it was so much more.
Paulo de Tarso:So from New York, I went on to I went to I went to California. And from California, I went to London, trying to skip a little bit. Otherwise, I'll be here all day. And then in London, I I was very fortunate to work with Jeremy King and Chris Corbin at the Woolsey, which was an amazing journey, and I was a maitre d there. From there, I went on to to to Scott's for Richard Carrington on Mount Street, and that was an incredible experience.
Paulo de Tarso:I I worked with some amazing people there. And then I got a call and to go to Barbaloo, Daniel Barbaloo, three Michelin star chef at the time, was opening Barbaloo with Mandarin Oriental at in High Park. And that was incredible journey. I mean, that was you know, we what we were doing there, was incredible. $8.08 hundreds to a thousand covers a day Mhmm.
Paulo de Tarso:And just incredible business. And from there, I spent six years with Daniel Boulud, and I opened Margaux, my own restaurant in in Covent Garden. And then from from opening Margaux in COVID time, I stepped away from the business, and I did TED Talk, and I started my Paulo Tarso Hospitality consulting business, which I'm I'm doing until now.
Mason Potter:Nice. The rest is history.
Paulo de Tarso:Yeah. The hell.
Mason Potter:Yeah. Well, that's amazing. That's amazing. Obviously, you've, you know, you've you've been around the block. You've been in, you know, different continents working in hospitality.
Mason Potter:But going back to the beginning, was there a specific mentor or a specific person, a moment, an interaction with a customer that made you think, this is what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life, and I'm actually very good at it. Because, obviously, you have a very good reputation for for service. You're renowned for it. Obviously, the the endeavors that you've you've gone on with your own business as well. What made you think, you know, I've got this.
Mason Potter:I'm gonna I'm gonna go all the way with it?
Paulo de Tarso:I that's a really good question. Really, really good question. Because at the time, I didn't I didn't have a mentor. Mhmm. But I knew of Denny Meyer.
Paulo de Tarso:And his book really just touched me deeply to what it is to to make someone feel good, to to to, you know, to create an environment and a place where people go and you make them feel good. And I I think the whole history about about about restaurants, the way it started in France and all about it. But I I just I I think the the moment for me, it was I I think there's two. I think it was the moment when we opened a coffee shop and and customers were coming in, and it was no longer a transaction. You you you you someone will grab a cake that that that we made, and and and they're, wow.
Paulo de Tarso:This is delicious. And they'll come the next day, and they'll bring a friend. And the second part was the one in my first job as a busboy, I remember watching the briefing and and and how, you know, how incredible it is to to to to have a business. And and you have two hours with the customers, but you gotta hit all the right steps completely perfect for someone to leave that that environment completely happy. What you know, from watching your website to the minute that you get the welcome, to the minute that they sit down, to the minute you take the order, the drinking times, and everything, I just fell in love with that process.
Paulo de Tarso:And when they leave and and and and and there's no longer a handshake, it's a kind of a hug, and you go, wow. I've I've I've made a difference today.
Mason Potter:Mhmm. Yeah. That's amazing. It's amazing. And obviously, like we've spoken before Yeah.
Mason Potter:That is kind of an addictive thing as well.
Paulo de Tarso:It really is.
Mason Potter:And seeing that and going through that process, I can imagine it's super, super rewarding.
Paulo de Tarso:Yeah. It's it's almost like, you know, when you when you buy a present for someone that you really love? Mhmm. The feeling of of of of getting it, and you're so excited, you're contemplating with them. You get the right thing, you give it to them.
Paulo de Tarso:Yeah. And you go, wow. I I just I I fell in love with that. I I just felt that, you know, I can make a difference on when someone's having a bad day and a good day in a restaurant environment. How many times I I've seen someone getting divorced or or or someone but there's a lot of celebrations that goes to.
Paulo de Tarso:There's a lot of moments that people and and I think it's just such a beautiful spiritual environment in a way.
Mason Potter:Yeah. And is that what drove the move for you to want to move from back of house into front of house, dealing with customers and being a people person?
Paulo de Tarso:Yes. Listen. It's for me, I I remember not only I I remember becoming a busboy and busy restaurants, five waiters. I I looked after two or three waiters, and it was the the simplicity of it. It was ice making iced tea, waters, you know, bringing waters at the table with their bottled water, and then clearing the table and doing that job.
Paulo de Tarso:But I remember being so good at it as I became good at it that the way the head waiters and waiters are fighting for me to be in their station. But then when you leave, you know, you everybody tips you. At the end of the day, the money that I was making compared to what I made as a dishwasher, I go, wow. And I was clean, and I looked good, and then I had interaction with people. I had interaction with customers.
Paulo de Tarso:And then I you you get your bad customers, and you have your good customers. And I remember this. My my I had a Guatemalan I this is funny. I had a Guatemalan head waiter when I was doing my trial in Beverly Hills. And he looked at me and he said, you got this.
Paulo de Tarso:Just remember that every smile is a dollar. Every the cramming the table is a dollar. Every bottle, don't let people touch anything. You know, just really be in control and provide the best service. Be honest and suggest things and just create this memory.
Paulo de Tarso:And you and you got this. And I remember that on my trial because I was so nervous, and I got the job. And and and at the time in Beverly Hills, you know, restaurants, you when you get higher, you only work daytime. The money is at nighttime. Right?
Paulo de Tarso:So when you become a head waiter at nighttime, oh my god. You're you're making a fortune. So it it it was great. But the that feeling, I think, is is something that is just making someone else just feel good if they're having a bad day, I think, pretty powerful.
Mason Potter:Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. You've worked in New York.
Mason Potter:You've worked in Los Angeles. You've worked in London. You've worked in loads of different types of restaurants, some of the top names in the industry. What would you say if through Lightning's across all those brands that you've probably carried with, and you've learned along your journey and the process of what great service means and all that sort of thing? But is there a consistent line?
Mason Potter:Obviously, every business has got their own culture at the end the day.
Paulo de Tarso:I would love this. It's a really it's a it's a it's a it's a really beautiful question.
Mason Potter:What's one thing that that really stands out as a consistent theme across a great It's service.
Paulo de Tarso:You know? It's it's it's it's it's when people walk into your environment, it's it's it's it's it's circa the Soleil. I'm gonna take all your stresses away. Mhmm. You know?
Paulo de Tarso:Good evening, and good afternoon. How are you? And it it's it's it's a service, and it's it's about it's it's it's it's it's like a symphony. You know? Everything we do has a purpose, has a reason, and I think for me, you know, it's a chef is an artist that passes the plate to you in the past.
Paulo de Tarso:Mhmm. The minute that that plate is laid down there, it's our responsibility. And every single person needs to take their job so seriously because we're representing, like, the chef, and we're gonna create that environment. It's about you know, it's it's so it's it's for me, it's always service because we're the ones dealing with the problems. We're the the ones dealing with the memories.
Paulo de Tarso:We're the one dealing with everything that's happening in that environment. So I think it's always looking after the customer. You know? Not necessarily customer's always right, but but we're we're we're not here to create an argument. We we're just gonna make sure that everything goes perfectly for them.
Mason Potter:Mhmm.
Paulo de Tarso:And then that's when you're creating regulars. That's why you're creating you know, it's always just take take care of things. And sometimes restaurant tours, you know, they they dwell on things too much. Let's just just get on with that.
Mason Potter:Just Get the problems right.
Paulo de Tarso:Let's sort it out. Yeah. Is is it an issue here? What is it? Let me let me sort this out.
Paulo de Tarso:Let's go. Let's move on. Apologies, sir. Apologies, madam. There's no point.
Paulo de Tarso:So I think for me is is is is is is really looking after the people that have taken the time to come to your business, the people that came to your buying a product from you. Mhmm. And they're having an issue with it. Just let's fix it. Let's let's make it right.
Paulo de Tarso:And that's how you, you know, human beings are loyal by nature. You know, it's for me, it's like having a doctor or a hairdresser. Never change. I always wanna go to the same person because I I wanna consist consistency. Right?
Paulo de Tarso:You don't wanna change those or your dentist because you just go to them. They know you, and you create that environment. I I think that's how I I think how that's how I became successful in my in my world is because, you know, people came to me three times a week.
Mason Potter:Mhmm.
Paulo de Tarso:And that's why you know you're doing something right. So, you know, there's a lot of answers to that question, but I also I know my clients, you know, come to me because they know it's gonna be perfect. And and if there's a problem, we'll sort it out.
Mason Potter:Yeah. I was actually gonna ask you what then defines great service then in your eyes, but you've you've you've sort of answered that question anyway. Is there anything else that you'd want to Yeah.
Paulo de Tarso:Listen. I for for me, it's it's it's okay. It's it's it it oh, one question is better than the other. So what's the difference between service and hospitality? Service is how you get a product from HOB.
Paulo de Tarso:What's hospitality? How do you make the the the recipient of that product feel? How do you make you feel? Right? Like, when we first met, we had a great chat.
Mason Potter:Mhmm.
Paulo de Tarso:Right? It was it was it was it was beautiful. It was just nice. It was just two human beings coming together. And I I think for me, when you're just thinking about transaction, transaction, transaction, you know, it it's it's it's it's not about that.
Paulo de Tarso:When people can feel it, people know when you're genuine. And I think I I think for me, that's when you're genuine and when you're kind, when you have empathy and you you know, what is hospitality? Your people are listening to me. Are are my is my staff engaging with each other? Are they having fun with each other?
Paulo de Tarso:The clients are really smart those days. They know good food, especially in England. You know, we've been exposed to every kind of food we know.
Mason Potter:In London especially.
Paulo de Tarso:In London especially. You know, if you don't get it right the first time, most likely they won't come back. They might give you a second chance. But, you know, hospitality is one. I'm listening to you.
Paulo de Tarso:That's hospitality. Are they listening to what my request is? Are they listening to what you know, am I customizing something? Am am I anticipating something for my clients? You know, and that's it.
Paulo de Tarso:It's it's about listening.
Mason Potter:So you just mentioned great hospitality is actually listening and solving a problem or listening to what I want. Now some of the best experiences I've had, they are a way to the or a familiar that really knows the menu that that almost predicts your problem or knows what you want before you even know what you want. And somebody that can pick something out on the menu based on what you said you like and have a bit of tenacity to actually then say, no, sir. Why do you have this with that, or why do you pair these things together? Because I'll take your point around listening to people and trying to solve the problems.
Mason Potter:But what's your view on someone that actually is a little bit more out there that really tries to make that experience I memorable, Pairing things together, sitting them in the right place, suggesting starters without them even actually saying, this is what I want. It's trying to predict that, knowing the menu, knowing the business, knowing the clientele.
Paulo de Tarso:I love that. I I I I I I sit you this as a head waiter, and we all did. And and I remember Beverly Hills, famous Italian restaurants, and and a lot of Asian customers, people coming from all over. And I remember people ordering two starters, two risottos, especially a lot of Italians, a lot of Japanese, they wanna try everything, and they will get, you know, too many courses. And I remember saying, no.
Paulo de Tarso:No. No. It's this is not gonna work. It's too much food. You're gonna eat the risotto.
Paulo de Tarso:Each one of you, you won't have anything after that. So I'm I'm I'm gonna ask the chef if I can do a small portion for each of you just for you to try. I think it's really important. I think I think I I think sommeliers have their frame of mind of what they wanna sell and what the business wanna sell and what's out there. It's it shouldn't be about that.
Paulo de Tarso:It should it should be about, you know, whatever know, I mentioned Legado and Nieves Barragan, a a Spanish restaurant that I love. And, you know, it's all small plates, but I think the whole purpose of it is is is really anticipating. Listen to what you you know, is this your first time? I mean, that's the it's it's open questions. Have you been here before?
Paulo de Tarso:Can I go over the menu with you? You've been here before, and let me let me explain how this works. And and and and and are you you have any allergies? Is is there anything you particularly wanted to eat today? And then go over, and then you're pairing that wine with that.
Paulo de Tarso:When you create that experience, not only when it's genuine, you're you're you're creating a memory for the clients the clients. And what is gonna happen in the end when everything goes perfectly well, They they they're gonna be the biggest PR agency for you. You can have the best PR in the world. But if people that are walking out of your restaurants just think about it. Alright.
Paulo de Tarso:I'll give you an example. It's December, right before Christmas. Everything in that restaurant needs to be perfect. You know why? Because every person in that December is gonna go to a Christmas party, is gonna go to events, then they're gonna take off and spend their whole time with all their families.
Paulo de Tarso:And all they're gonna talk about is that good experience that they had. You know? So I think
Mason Potter:All the bad experience
Paulo de Tarso:they And oh, exactly. And if it goes bad, oh my god. And if it's good, they will they will tell a few people. If it's bad, they'll tell the whole world. And especially now with social media and everything that's happening in the world is so quick.
Paulo de Tarso:So I think I think you have to customize that service. You have to talk to your client. You gotta you you gotta read the table. You got that's why, you know, always talking about how important service is. You you know, you you you have to have a personality.
Paulo de Tarso:You gotta talk to people and find what they want, what they're here for, what you know, it's so I think it's really important. I I more than ever. You know, I I think more than ever serve and and and and especially now. So if you don't get service right now, people people you know, the the attention span of people are just it's quick.
Mason Potter:And social media nowadays.
Paulo de Tarso:And and social media. You know? So so so so it's it's really quick. So you really have to engage. You really have to create that environment.
Paulo de Tarso:You know, we were talking about our galleries. Right? You walk in our gallery, most likely nobody will say even hello to you. They don't even know who you are. You could easily be someone that'll buy the entire gallery.
Paulo de Tarso:Right? So I think that the customer service, it's it's, you know, behavior now is really important across any business. If you don't have a team that has the the the correct behavior, being optimistic and and and and and having fun while they're working, people will notice and they'll go somewhere else.
Mason Potter:We'll come back to that point. Yeah. What's the what's the most underrated thing you think front of house teams can do to make a, you know, experience memorable? You know, when from the moment you're walking in the door, and they've talked about the steps of service and the steps of service that you need to hit every single point perfectly. What are the most underrated things?
Mason Potter:Obviously, you've talked about the high level things that are the most obvious.
Paulo de Tarso:This is gonna sound crazy, but I I think a smile. You know, I remember when I I was in New York and and and and people tell me smiles, like, is this guy telling me to smile? I want I'm always smiling. Why is he telling me to smile? I thought it was such an odd thing.
Paulo de Tarso:But now
Mason Potter:Who was telling you it was odd? The customers
Paulo de Tarso:No. No. I I I was thinking I was thinking to myself, it got how odd it was. But now, years, years later, I realized I mean, don't get me wrong, but how often sometimes you walk in in London, every some people look miserable. You know?
Paulo de Tarso:I mean and and and and and there's a lot of don't get me wrong. I'm not criticizing, but there's a lot of restaurants that are not training people well. The grooming doesn't look polished. Their behavior doesn't look polished. They don't look well.
Paulo de Tarso:I'm so sorry, but I I have to say what you know, when I ran restaurants, our team looked impeccable. We can speak. Phraseology, we had classes. We can talk to anyone. We can ask any questions.
Paulo de Tarso:We knew everything about the menu. So I think, you know, you work you walk in the environment. You know, the the the anticipation, the acknowledges someone. Good afternoon. Good evening, ma'am.
Paulo de Tarso:So, you know, noticing things. I think more and more than ever, people have their head down and, you know, put your put your shoulder up and smile a little bit. You know, say hello. Good afternoon, sir. Is there anything I can I can assist you with?
Paulo de Tarso:You know, just noticing things. I mean, you know, me and our restaurant floor, I we noticed every little detail. You you have to. Because, you you know, when you're doing four, five hundred covers, you you can't you don't have a second to hesitate. So I think smile for me.
Paulo de Tarso:I it just you know, the the the have be optimistic. Right? You know, when you when you're a tennis player and you get on that Wimbledon and you're playing, there should be nothing else in your mind, but I'm gonna win this title. You know? And today, how often I'm in a restaurant and someone is on the phone or someone's on the corner, chef's on the phone?
Paulo de Tarso:It's like having all your chefs smoking outside your restaurant. No way. You smoke two blocks away. Don't want anybody smoking here. I'm really sorry.
Paulo de Tarso:You're chef, and you're on your wife's, and you're smoking cigarettes. It's it's just that kind of mentality values. And you can call me old school, but but no. I'm I'm so sorry. You come to a restaurant, you should know entire menu.
Paulo de Tarso:You should answer any question you someone may have. You should know everything about the company, who works, who signs your paycheck, and why you're working here. What's the culture? And if you're going on a journey and you believe in a culture, you should know everything about it. You know, there's so there's a lot of people out there.
Paulo de Tarso:You go to places, and they're not they're not really they don't really care about their job. So I feel that, you know you know, it's a responsibility of the restaurateur to train and do all that, but also, you know, get people there and they're happy and enthusiastic about what they're doing. So if you're, you know, if you're a actor and you work as a waiter, behavior behave as a waiter for the eight hours that you're on that shift.
Mason Potter:Yeah.
Paulo de Tarso:That's how
Mason Potter:I feel. Yeah. And you think that comes from a lack of confidence? Obviously, people now were probably more distant than ever were better connected, but were more distant than we've ever have been because of technology. Do you think when someone comes into a restaurant or I'm a waiter waitress, I'm a I'm a I'm new into the job, I'm relatively junior, do think it's a lack of confidence for people, you know, trying to stand out?
Mason Potter:They want to just try and blend into the background and and have an easy shift?
Paulo de Tarso:I yeah. There there there are two sides of that. I I I really believe that there's a lot of companies out there that you're hiring. The gay young people, because I've worked with a lot of young people, and they're amazing. They're bright.
Paulo de Tarso:They're fun. They're exciting.
Mason Potter:Well motivated.
Paulo de Tarso:And and and yeah. I think I think they're brilliant. And I for me, the way I see it, it's it's a company problem. It's it's it's companies that that are not investing enough in hospitality and not investing enough in your teams, not investing enough in your training. Because and then if you're you you train someone and you have few weeks and you see that something is not right, they're not really engaging.
Paulo de Tarso:They're not there's gotta be management in the floor going, listen. Can we have a little chat? Are you okay? Is there something wrong? And if there's something wrong, they're having personal problems.
Paulo de Tarso:That's the thing. You send them home. But I think for me is is is is when your confidence and when you walk around is the reason that you're confident about your job is because you know your job inside out. When you really know your product and you know what you're talking about, where this water is from, the history behind it, who who owns it, what is this, what is that, You know, that that's the beautiful balsamoli is. Right?
Paulo de Tarso:They really need to know the product. So when you when you when you really love what you do, it just comes naturally. Yeah. And you see I've seen a lot of young people come into your environment. It is not it is not what they expected.
Paulo de Tarso:They walk away. The good ones walk away. No. That's not what I I want I want to be part of something.
Mason Potter:And you think that's because of you obviously said it's a business thing. It's it's something that they need to do, make sure the team are motivated, informed, engaged. How how big of a part do you think recognition plays in that? You know, tapping into human psychology and really, like, what we as humans fundamentally want to feel needed and wanted and valued. Where do you think recognition comes into that as part of the
Paulo de Tarso:process? It's huge. So so let let's talk about process. And the process needs to be perfect. And I know amazing companies that do well, really well.
Paulo de Tarso:Four Seasons, for example, does really well. You have a first interview. It starts with human resources or head of people, whatever you call it these days. Right? And you go through the steps.
Paulo de Tarso:And there's gotta be a process where that person has met with several different people by the time they get to the trial. The trial now is several hours that you're really looking at this person on floor. You don't know anything about them apart from I remember with me. If you try with me and you go, what time I'm going home? Right now.
Paulo de Tarso:I'll send you home right away. The minute that you ask that question, I will send you home. And I'll tell all my managers to do that. Because if you wanted to so you're this is your try. If you really want this job, you're not asking what time you're going home.
Paulo de Tarso:You just do it. By the time he's I'm sending you call.
Mason Potter:Should go from what time I'm going home to what else can I
Paulo de Tarso:do? Exactly. Yeah. Right? So I I think I think I think, you know, the steps of of I think the wealth the training is you know, you you get higher.
Paulo de Tarso:And then the minute that you did a trial and they yes. I would love to be part of this project. Now you gotta invest on them. You gotta make sure that they have you know, as a let's say someone has been hired as a waiter. Okay.
Paulo de Tarso:Perfect. You need to learn your starters, your mains, your desserts. Now you you you you've taken the test. I passed my tests. Now you know your cocktails.
Paulo de Tarso:Boom. You can describe all your cocktails. Now you know all your allergens. Perfect. No problem.
Paulo de Tarso:Now you know about the history of the place, the restaurateurs, and what we're doing. Okay. Perfect. You know the concept, who's the chef, everything else, and now we need to know our surrounding area. You know, like in Covent Garden with Margaux, for example, you need to know the theaters.
Paulo de Tarso:What time it starts? Lion King, Lyceum, or whatever. You know? Where where's Balthazar? Would you or recommend someone to go to the Rosewood to have a cocktail in their bar.
Paulo de Tarso:Whatever it is, we have to have that knowledge. Once you have all that knowledge and then the confidence comes, but it's the investment that you have to make towards your team in order to to have that. So I think I think, you you know, for me is is this. You give me 50%. I give you 50%.
Paulo de Tarso:Together, we're a team.
Mason Potter:And that is really hospitality. It's teamwork. It's everyone working in unison. The chefs, the waiters, the commies, front of house, back of house, management, everyone, like, working together to to create this perfectionism, and so it runs like a really well oiled machine.
Paulo de Tarso:It has to.
Mason Potter:And like you said, Cirque du Soleil, every hospitality business has got its own version of hospitality, but they're creating that experience, and it's not just down to one person. It's it's someone to It's the
Paulo de Tarso:it's the whole team. You know, if you if you think about it, you know, from from from a product perspective coming up with a dish and and, you know, someone books you and looks at your website, finds out about all your food. By the time you walk in, you leave your coats and you and your your customer journey. Right? Going to a table and sitting down, ordering a cocktail, you know, the the the everything has to be time and and perfect in order for does the the customer to come in.
Paulo de Tarso:And when you make a mistake, be honest about it. But everything it's it's a team, and and and the execution of that needs to be perfect because, you know, we're we're we're doing what what you know, it's so difficult for for a restaurant business to make money, especially more than ever now. So when there's a lot of mistakes and we're wasting a lot of food waste, wasting another drinks, or is it wasting a lot of things, you know, it it's it's there's no reason for us to do that. We we just gotta everything we do needs to be perfection, and it comes from all the departments in order to provide that great service.
Mason Potter:And what would you say again, because there's so many different nuances, hospitality and hospitality businesses, whether it's a pub, a restaurant, a hotel, a bar, a cafe, anything in the industry, what would you say the top things are that that would actually really create an amazing culture to actually unlock that secret sauce? Because you can tell when you go into a fantastic venue, everything's working correctly, the food's coming out perfectly, the service is on point. When it can come, you know, down from the management, making sure that it actually can be a a bottom up approach as well as the team are well motivated to actually fulfill on that Sure. That derivative.
Paulo de Tarso:So look, I I I think you I'm gonna, you know I I Danny Meyer, that's the things that I learned from from him. Know? You you you you have to hire people that are kind Mhmm. That that has curious intelligence. They're asking questions all the time.
Paulo de Tarso:You have people that have empathy. And when you hire someone, you really need to know what it is that they want in life. And and if you're gonna be here for this many hours, you know, there's no place I'd rather be than make someone happy. So so so so I you know, and and and and restaurant tours, crazy ones like us, when we see someone eating or enjoying a product, it's it's it's it's so beautiful to watch that. But I I think it is it's it's the it's it's it's the entire process of bringing someone into your family that understands, you know, the the culture.
Paulo de Tarso:It starts with values. What are values? You know? And when you have children, you can understand that we're going to a trip. Everybody in that car needs to understand where we're going.
Mason Potter:What were your values at at Margaux or the the top ones that you've worked in?
Paulo de Tarso:It's it's integrity. It's it's it's it's you know, if is integrity? It's doing something when nobody is looking. For us, it's really important. You know, help your brother, help your sister, help each other out.
Paulo de Tarso:It's not about blame, and it's about honesty. When you make a mistake, raise your arms so we can all that we need to know is the minute that you tell us what's happening, we we swarm. We go over it. We take care of it. I'm sorry about it.
Paulo de Tarso:You know? I remember, you know, it's a funny story. Beverly Hills on on my trial, I
Mason Potter:I You didn't cut your leg again, did
Paulo de Tarso:spilled a glass of white wine in this lady. And and I was so nervous that my first instinct was to pull out money out of my my my pocket, and I gave her, look, this is 25. And she goes, oh, yeah. Thank you. No problem.
Paulo de Tarso:And but, you know, we She
Mason Potter:took the money or not?
Paulo de Tarso:I I she did. She did. It it it I I was so nervous. And and and the head waiter goes, listen. That's that's fine that you did that, but don't worry.
Paulo de Tarso:We we take care of dry cleaning. We take care of things. It's not a big deal. And if you're really nice, you know, customers are not gonna be upset about it. But I think it I I, you know, I I think those the same values that we learned from our parents, it goes in a restaurant.
Paulo de Tarso:We need to know that that journey. What what what we're trying to be, an incredible Italian restaurant. And and what we're trying to do, we we use these incredible ingredients. We work with the best suppliers. Everything that we work with, like Aubrey Allen that I talk about all the time, the way they they the the the way we buy their meat is because the way they treat the cows with the utmost respect, you know, and everything that we why we were buying that ice for the cocktail and and and all the wines.
Paulo de Tarso:Why why why why do we make the wine list? Why we use a certain products? Who do we work with? So it it goes from it's it's so many people involved in order to create that environment, your suppliers, everybody that works with you, and and that you gotta take everybody in that journey with you. And I think it comes with all those values, respect, you know, ownership, ownership when when when something you know, you you as Gordon Ramsay says, you know, we're we're as good as our blessed service.
Paulo de Tarso:Right? So so, you know, when we make mistakes, that is when you know how good the business are, how they take care of it right away. Buy a pair of tennis shoes at Nike and and have it for a year, and something goes wrong with it, take it back to them. They'll they'll take the whole thing back without a question.
Mason Potter:Really?
Paulo de Tarso:They will look at it. Yeah. They will look at it. They will they will have they have they will they will look at it. Just happened to me.
Paulo de Tarso:I had a full bear football boots. They look at it. They take a picture. You fill out this form. Boom.
Paulo de Tarso:Done. That is customer service in America across anywhere you go. So I think it's it's really important that, you know, it know, it's it's that we do that. You know? It's just you know, it's it's really important that we do that.
Paulo de Tarso:So I think the values and and really this transparency of telling everybody what is our journey. What what you know, and be honest with everybody. This is what we're trying to achieve. You know? And and and when you do that, you know, you create a team that's united, and everybody's working for it.
Paulo de Tarso:And I wanna be promoted, and I wanna do this. I love this environment. Because what you're doing is you know, what what made us successful is that we train every position really, really well. We we it was relentless. And if you wanna get promoted, it it from the top manager to the bottom, everybody was trained really well.
Paulo de Tarso:And you wanna be in an environment that that like that. And I look I look at all all the people that work with me, and I get messages all the time. You know, they're all directors, and they're all doing incredibly well. And, you know, I was tough on them, Really tough on them. Most of them.
Paulo de Tarso:You know? A good tough. And they appreciate it. But values for me, every company needs to that that that culture of value. And knowing that if I make a mistake, not a problem.
Paulo de Tarso:Let me show you how to do this. And and this is how we're do this. And perfect. I'm gonna show you once, and I'm gonna show you once. And do you know how to do it now?
Paulo de Tarso:No. I don't. Okay. I'll show you again. Mhmm.
Paulo de Tarso:I mean, it's that simple, ain't it? Now you can do it perfect. Let's move on. So I think it's it's it's important. It's that culture of caring.
Paulo de Tarso:I'm I'm I'm I'm taking you got this, and I'm taking you with me. Let's go.
Mason Potter:Mhmm. Yeah. It it goes back to the team effort, doesn't it? It's it's not just, yeah, that they were saying there's no I in team. I think that's the probably the thing I've heard the most from operators since, you know, since being in hospitality.
Mason Potter:You talked about service and service in America, and obviously, you've worked on both sides of the pond. What do you think is one of the things or are some of the things that The UK could learn from The US or vice versa in terms of cultural standards, and also service standards as well?
Paulo de Tarso:Okay. Great. So I'll I'll I'll give you a perfect example. So if I'm interviewing you in America, I'm looking for personality. Okay?
Paulo de Tarso:I'm looking for someone that has got a great smile, that's got a lot of energy, that is happy to be here, and and and and and that's what I want. I want someone that can engage with people, someone that can go, oh, excuse me, madam. Hello. You know, it's it's almost like having a friend when you have something in your face and, you know, you tell them. You say, look.
Paulo de Tarso:You got something here. You know? So it's it's it's that simple. So I think in in in America, we always hire in personality. When I first came to Europe, I I I remember coming to London.
Paulo de Tarso:I went to I noticed in bars, bartenders were amazing, and and they were very robotic. They're amazing in making a cocktail, but they didn't have that dialogue with you. And and and, you know, hello, guys. How are you? First time here.
Paulo de Tarso:In New York, you know, the the bartenders
Mason Potter:leave you alone.
Paulo de Tarso:Oh my god. They're, you know, they're they're you know, they'll talk to you. They they they they know if they wanna talk, if you don't wanna talk. So I think in America, we get and and and and and and saying that, I think the technical skill in Europe is a lot better, you know, when it comes to, you know, technical skill when it comes to front house service is is impeccable, and and, of course, the kitchen also. But I think personality because if I if I got a great person that has personality, I can cheat you everything else.
Paulo de Tarso:Mhmm. But if I have a person that is doesn't know how to engage and talk to people
Mason Potter:He does.
Paulo de Tarso:So that is the difference. So that is why I found my service because I had the recipe of I want personality, and I want the technical ability. And we're be kind, we're gonna be nice, and we're gonna just, you know, blow them away. And that is that's exactly the difference. And that's, you know, that's that's changing also.
Paulo de Tarso:But, yeah, I I felt when I first came here, I was like, god. It's so robotic. I mean, you you I I you know, we could me and you go to, you know, Michelin star restaurants at the three level that you you'll see is you'll still see it. Mhmm. You know, it's it's cold and robotic.
Mason Potter:Do you think that's like a do think that's just a a cultural thing for for British people versus Americans, or do you think it's you know, is it tips? Is it like, what what do you think it is that's driving that subconsciously? Obviously, if we can have a if you can give a very clear between The US and The UK service standards, everyone's got their own view on it. But do you think it generally is just a cultural thing that's embedded over here, or do you think it's, you know, something else that we're not that we're not seeing?
Paulo de Tarso:There well, there's there's several parts. Okay? When I you know, when I worked in Beverly Hills, you know that each customer, you know, they know, there's you know, they would leave a tip for you. So better you are at your job, better the tip is gonna come. So, you know, so if you're if you're not good in what you do so it's it's almost that we we we work for this company, but we work for ourselves at the same time.
Paulo de Tarso:And I think so so that drives people to perform every day. They have to perform. They have to deliver that that that great service. And and and then, of of course, even when I came to London, the culture of of tipping, it's it's not really embedded. You know, Spanish when I first came here, I remember, you know, not to generalize, but I remember at the Woolsey, a table of forced, you know, people from Spain, they left two pounds on the table.
Paulo de Tarso:And that's before service charge was added. So a lot of coaches like that. And that happened to us in America. Whenever we had different coaches that came to Europeans in America, they wouldn't leave the tip. So we we had to add service charge with the pen, and we're not supposed to do that.
Paulo de Tarso:But otherwise, they wouldn't tip. I remembered I I chased a woman down the street.
Mason Potter:I was gonna say,
Paulo de Tarso:you ever chase her down the street. You do hear the
Mason Potter:the stories of what for them.
Paulo de Tarso:I I I chased a Australian lady with her two kids and her husband. Her husband left early, and then she left, and she left me no tip. And I I walked up to her, and I said, I I hello. Just want to let you know that here, the way it works is that we you know, the tip is our money. That's all we take because we don't get a check.
Paulo de Tarso:You know? So so you not leave me a tip. That means I worked those three hours for you for nothing. And she goes, oh my so I'm so sorry. And I I didn't know, but she still carry on and and walked away.
Paulo de Tarso:And I I we all did it.
Mason Potter:Yeah. Because you you you yeah.
Paulo de Tarso:So it's it's so so it it is embedded in in a culture, but that's changing dramatically. You know, for example, Margot, he had a 15% service charge automatically, and nobody ever complained. You know, not one person ever complained. It's changing because I you know, even in I was in Lisbon a lot last year, and a lot of restaurants are adding service charge.
Mason Potter:Oh, really?
Paulo de Tarso:Yeah. You have to. I mean, you know, so so, you know, there's a lot and, you know, I mean, in America, by culture, you know, the culture, people are really generous. I mean, in in America, if you're really bad, they'll leave you 25%. So it's Do you
Mason Potter:think that's a good thing or a bad thing, though?
Paulo de Tarso:Look. I I I think I I I yeah. I I mean, I I think I think it's just it is in a way a bad thing because you you encourage people to do the same thing. Or the same way, you know, let's say, you know, me and you work together and you're miserable all the time and I'm amazing all the time, and I'm getting all these tips, then we gotta shit share the tips at the end of the night. How would that feel for someone that's really good?
Paulo de Tarso:Not not quite right. Because you're you're really ticking the box and doing everything right. And then the other person is like, woah. Woah. Not not necessarily a person that's having a bad day.
Paulo de Tarso:I'm just talking about it in general. So it's kinda tricky that way. But I you know, it's it's you know, I love what Denny Meyer has done. You know, Denny Meyer has taken the tipping away. He had all the he's had add add all the prices into the menu, so you don't have to tip.
Mason Potter:And do you
Paulo de Tarso:like garlic? You don't have to Look. It's working for him really well. So and and and who am I to, you know, question Denny Meyer? But if he's working, that's amazing because, you know, it's it's it's you know, I I think me and you talk about this.
Paulo de Tarso:I find crazy that restaurants charge for bread and olive oil. I find insane. It's it's because it's part of hospitality. Italian restaurants, you serve bread and and olive oil automatically. And and and and this should be a hidden cost.
Paulo de Tarso:Why are charging people $5.50 for a basket of bread? I mean
Mason Potter:I don't think people would order five baskets then?
Paulo de Tarso:No. Listen. If you maybe you you if you have if if you have the if you have that problem, I never had that problem. But if you were to have that problem, you mentioned after the second basket, we we have to charge. Something like that.
Mason Potter:That's a fatty
Paulo de Tarso:But I I just find it I I find it you know, I just find sad that people are charging for things that they shouldn't charge.
Mason Potter:On a separate point, obviously, we talked about tipping a little bit there, and obviously, did when we when we first met. Like, what it's obviously there's a lot that's going on in the industry now about tipping, the way it's changing, cash is disappearing, you know, listening from a from a consumer perspective, obviously, wearing the wearing the tipping games, we we talk about it day in, day out. But then from an operator side and also from a team member side, you're getting all this conflicting information about what's going on, what's right, what's wrong, the positives and negatives. We've talked about UK and US differences in tipping and how that can really incentivize great great performance. What's your whole take on, you know, where tipping is going?
Mason Potter:Obviously, where it's come from, you know, when you started the Woolersley, it wasn't there. You you said you got two pounds on the table to where it is now. What do you think is going on with the market, and how do you how do you see it playing out, or what do you think the market can do to to really harness the power of tips?
Paulo de Tarso:Look. For for me, when I first got here, I I never understood the way it really worked. I thought I thought it was very strange that you have a trunk master, that someone's responsible for that money. And and that money goes into a system, and and and it's not really transparent. And it should be.
Paulo de Tarso:You know, I know operators have used that money for for glasses or breakage or things like that. And and and for me, ultimately, that money belongs to the staff. Service charge, it belongs to them and that money. You know? So I love what you guys are doing because you you have to create a system that needs to be transparent so everybody knows exactly where the direction is going.
Paulo de Tarso:And And with the trunk master, I'm sure, you know, people have used the money for other things. And and and because the the whole meeting of of the trunk system, you know, when you have it's easy when you have September, October, November, December, and the business doing really well. So the the money is meant to okay. So the months that we're not busy, January, February, perhaps March, you know, when things start going on, and then you balance that money out. But I don't think the way I've seen it, it's not really transparent.
Paulo de Tarso:And it needs to be I think every little penny needs to be counted for, and people should know exactly where it's going.
Mason Potter:Yeah. I think transparency is a is a big thing, you know, from from when it comes to tips because it's such an emotional topic. Right? And I think that's part of the fabric of hospitality. When you hear people that have been in the industry for ages, it's just it is a given that the tipping is part of one of the perks of working in the industry.
Mason Potter:I think when it comes to money, you know, you talked about it why you moved into front of house because you could see you you you looked good, you felt good, but you were also earning money from your great performance. And I think it's quite telling that the lack of transparency can have a really profoundly negative impact on team members' motivation.
Paulo de Tarso:Completely. And and and and this is one of the reasons why Denny Meyer has changed the whole game, Especially, you know, why why is the kitchen not getting you know, the service charge should go for everybody, not just front of the house. It should go for the entire team, all the money that comes through. Yeah. So, you know, he's he's done something that is is really transparent.
Paulo de Tarso:And people everybody should know exactly how much money was in. However, you deliver that to your team, but everybody should know exactly what it is, how much we took in that month, how much service charge is, and this is where it's going. And then if you have a point system for your staff, depending how many points they have, whatever, but it needs to be transparent. And I think, you know, we I was hoping the government will get involved and and and and and put, you know, a fine line to how it should be. But what you guys are doing is great because I think that that is transparent, and it's what people need to see it.
Mason Potter:Yeah. They have done, obviously, to a certain extent, like, you know, the laws came in in 2024, so businesses now have to have a certain degree of transparency. But that's what we're trying to do is we're trying to reduce shift latency and really give team members, you know, ownership and visibility over what their earning is. Because like you said at the end of the day, it is theirs, and they're working so hard for it. Like you said, hospitality now is harder than it's ever been for operators and for and for team members.
Mason Potter:It's it's a it's a it's a real struggle out there at the moment.
Paulo de Tarso:No. It's it's it's it's really difficult, and those those laws came, you know, because, I mean, how often you see big companies, big operators get in trouble for not dividing their money correctly and where was that money going. And, you know, if you're if you're talking about restaurants that are doing 500 covers, major covers, it there's a lot of money on that pot. So it needs to be transparent, and and people needs to know everybody should know exactly what's happening because you know? And and and, yes, the the industry is suffering now more than ever.
Paulo de Tarso:I mean, it's, you know, it's a lot of effects here, especially London. We you you you had, you know, you had COVID, which really didn't didn't help us at all. And then coming from COVID, and, I mean, it's just London is is you know, Brexit didn't help with COVID. And then, you know, it's London is a really expensive city, and and and and and a lot of operators are trying to survive. And and Brexit, you know, raised the price on every every single item because people forget that we're an island.
Paulo de Tarso:You know? We don't we don't you know, everything comes from somewhere else. So it's it's and and then, you know, you have to rent the rises, the rents. You you have you know, it's it's it's really it's really difficult.
Mason Potter:Mhmm. You've talked about getting repeat customer and making sure that you knew customers. You had customers that came three times a week when you were at your restaurant and when you were responsible for running for a house. And I've asked you the question about what is the best thing that you can do as a front of house team member to make customers feel special and create that experience for them, but flip it on its head. Having been in that position, people want to remember.
Mason Potter:They want to be looked after. And I think that's subconsciously why people end up tipping loads because if I'm gonna go back to this restaurant, I wanna be looked after. I wanna be remembered. From a customer's perspective, what do you think the things are that customers can do to really make a front of house team feel special? Because, obviously, it's it's your job as a as a business, as a team to really create that environment.
Mason Potter:But on the flip side, you wanna be communicating with and interacting with people that you actually enjoy I love that. Going through that process with.
Paulo de Tarso:Look. I I think it's it's it's like me now. You know? I I I keep talking about the places that I love. I went to
Mason Potter:Well, when we first met as well, you were talking to everybody. You were shaking people's hand, and you were making people feel like you actually wanted to be there, not like it was their job and their duty to
Paulo de Tarso:Exactly. So I yeah. I I think it's really I I'm really always nice to people in restaurants and hotels and especially, you know, old you know, I I try to be as nice as I can be even when situations can be kinda you're waiting for something. Or but I think, you know, when you would if first of all, the customer's amazing because if they go the first time and they love it, they're gonna tell everybody. So they're literally working for you already.
Paulo de Tarso:They're gonna post it on Instagram. They're gonna post it on TikTok or whatever it is, Facebook, that people use. They're talking about it on stories or in everything. But then I I think the the the the nicest thing, you know, it's creating it's it's almost like I always notice when someone gets a haircut. I always notice when someone has something different about them.
Paulo de Tarso:I with
Mason Potter:a commitment.
Paulo de Tarso:Yeah. No. Just in general in life. Right? People don't notice things.
Paulo de Tarso:And I think it's really important. So I I remember Margo, you know, had you know, make sure the managers all the managers win and say hello to every single table. Go say hello to every table. Hello. Hi.
Paulo de Tarso:How are you? Mason is it Mason's? I I've seen you before here. Have you? Oh, it's your third time.
Paulo de Tarso:Perfect. Welcome back. Mhmm. You know, nice to this is my card. Is if if there's anything you ever need.
Paulo de Tarso:But for the customer, I think the customer by by coming back the second time, I think customer needs to you know, they should be kind to the staff, which it should be a given. But most customers are really nice. They're coming into a restaurant. They're relaxed. You know?
Paulo de Tarso:I mean, sometimes business lunch can be difficult. They don't they don't have much time to interact. But if you, you know, I think being nice to staff and and tipping well and and and as you mentioned earlier, you know, service charges included. I I often find, you know, customers that wanna take the service chart out out of the bill because they had a a bad experience. And What would you
Mason Potter:do in that instance? Sorry to interrupt you. Like, so in your restaurant, someone's taking the service charge off because you hear different people Yeah. Dealing with this in different ways. Yeah.
Mason Potter:Somebody's coming to your restaurant. They've taken the service charge off because they have obviously, haven't had a good experience or they don't agree in tipping. Like, how would you as the restaurant owner or how would you instruct the team to to deal with that process? We
Paulo de Tarso:we we don't we we will take it out automatically. I I I find I I I find it awful that people even ask for that. But it it has to be really awful in order for that to happen. But I we just do it without a question. We just we just take it off, and we apologize.
Paulo de Tarso:But also what I wanna know from that, I wanna know the entire story. So I make sure that managers are listening to everything that happened because I wanna make sure because often this has happened. I'm not saying everybody does that, but you get people that especially drink a lot want us to do that. And, you know, those bills can be very big, very large. Mhmm.
Paulo de Tarso:But we don't question it. We just take it off. That's what I used to do all the time. Yeah. If if if that happened, but it it never really happened that often.
Paulo de Tarso:Mhmm. But I think it's
Mason Potter:Works as a good service.
Paulo de Tarso:Yeah. That's it. So so that goes back to all that. So same thing, the reason nobody ever complained about the 15%, whereas 12 and a half everywhere, is because we never had a bad service. So that's why the focus needs to be there.
Paulo de Tarso:The service is, you know, Cirque du Soleil. You know? You you you go there and and and you you sit there. You bought those expensive tickets. You you you had four cocktails with your loved one, and and now you're watching the show, and and and he should be perfection.
Mason Potter:Mhmm.
Paulo de Tarso:Otherwise, you know and so I think, you know, that's that's really important.
Mason Potter:Yeah. What would you say hospitality is in your own words?
Paulo de Tarso:Hospitality is to have empathy in your heart, is to not to judge. You never know what someone is going through. You never know that person that walk you through your restaurant that is half an hour, forty five minutes late, that person could just found out that they had cancer at a doctor appointment before, someone that just lost their job, someone, you know, in in our world, we judge very quickly. And I think that is something really wrong that we do. So, you know, it's the the key is is is not your judge.
Paulo de Tarso:I think hospitality is about, you know, you're you're breaking bread. You're you're eating. You're you're trying to have fun. And it's about to have empathy and to to really take your time to listen to people. So hospitality for me is a is a is a very spiritual thing where, you know, if we look through what happened in COVID times, you know, where we are all stuck in our homes or flats or whatever, and how much we missed that human being counter.
Paulo de Tarso:You know, we're all human beings going through a lesson in Earth, and I think people forget that it's not a transaction. It's it's it's it's not every not everything is a transaction. It's a it's you know, it's about creating a memory. If you're creating memories with everything you do, you'll be successful with anything you do. So I think I think it's it's it's all that.
Mason Potter:If you're in hospitality, if you're in law, if you're in anything that's to do with customer interaction, what do you think the biggest takeaways that people can have if they're not in the industry to actually improve the interactions that they have with other humans to improve service? Because you said that transactional piece, I think it now is becoming more of a transaction. You can go into a hotel, you'd have to speak to somebody. You check-in in somewhere, you go to the shops, you'd you'd have to speak to somebody. But when you do speak to somebody, when it's not involved in hospitality, what are the things that you think people outside of the industry can adopt to really level up that experience for people when you're interacting?
Paulo de Tarso:It's you know, it it yeah. It's it's so funny because, you know, even you know, I we used do, you know, phraseology classes. You know? The way you you look at someone, the way you speak, the way you say good evening. But I think, you know, if you just take the the people are doing if you don't know people, you don't know business.
Paulo de Tarso:And if you take the transaction part of it and you just put yourself in their shoes, how can I make this person feel good? So I think in in in in the restaurant, we anticipate We purse you know, we do things personalize things for them. And and that's why hospitality is not just for restaurant pubs and bars. Hospitality is for any business, banking business, retail, the you know, any industry. And and and now all those major companies are understanding that.
Paulo de Tarso:The way you can I you know, we can go to the Netflix Building, and we're having lunch on the on on the on the 5th Floor? And, you know, it's it's so I think what companies used to do that every interaction that you have, if you're a hair salon and you offer a glass of champagne or a glass of wine or or you know? So I think it's it's just creating anticipating what your client's needs. But, you know, you know, creates an environment that there's no place they'd rather be. You know, you you you know, you you you can sell motorcycle, motorcycles, and you walk in the dealership.
Paulo de Tarso:How how you treat it? How how how how did did that person know that product knowledge? How how can I I I give you my my my information? Can I send you some details about this this product? You know, it's it's customizing an experience and and just just treated that person just like you're treating your a a good friend.
Paulo de Tarso:You know, I think I think business will you know, it's the the the the the top top companies in the world, it's they they they they understand it's about it's the it's about the interaction. It's gonna be all about human connection, especially with everything that it's all it's all about connecting the dots. You know, it that phone that we're on it all the time is is taking away so so much of that. So it's nice to you know, how often you're on a phone and you call a company and you gotta press so many numbers. Just give me a human being.
Paulo de Tarso:You know? That number should be the first one. Press 1 if you wanna speak to someone. But it it never is. Right?
Paulo de Tarso:It's always hidden.
Mason Potter:Think a lot of people a lot of people will just will do that nowadays because of the the frustration not having that interruption.
Paulo de Tarso:You know, how nice, you know, you meet someone, you meet a client, buy something special for them, you got their details, write them a note. You know? Write them a note and and say thank you so much for coming to my store and and and let me know if you need anything else. Same way if you work in the retail industry. Listen.
Paulo de Tarso:This is my card, Paulo. You know, in spring, if you're looking for something different or when I get your email, you don't mind me emailing you with our new products and and just that that communication, just treat it like you know, this is what I learned really young.
Mason Potter:Making people feel a certain way.
Paulo de Tarso:It's it's it's that and treat it like it's your own business. You know, I learned that from my mother. If you're gonna be a if you're gonna pick up the rubbish, dance. Pick up that rubbish dancing and happy. And that job, it's your bread and butter, and it pays your bills.
Paulo de Tarso:If you're gonna be a London bus driver, I know it's gotta be a tough job, but, man, smile. You know, if you you know, it it's different. You know, my my boys often say that we go to California. Everybody says good morning. And I'm I'm not being critical, but, you know, even, you know, postmen, man, say good morning.
Paulo de Tarso:You come to my house every morning. Good morning. Hi. How are you? Eight.
Paulo de Tarso:You know? And so I think it's that. You know? Let's just be nice and and and and and and show that we care. And when you show it with the care, customers are so smart.
Paulo de Tarso:They see it. Mhmm. They they see it right through you.
Mason Potter:And they come back because
Paulo de Tarso:they And they come back because of that feeling. It's the feeling. It's it's you know, I often talk about this. We all want the same feeling. It's the feeling that when we're born, our mother was held in us.
Paulo de Tarso:It was the best feeling in the world, and we're all searching for the same feeling all our lives. We're searching for that. You know? It's so I think if you create a environment that everybody's pleased, everybody's happy, everybody's having a great time, you know, you have delicious food, something goes wrong, we take care of it. Not a problem.
Paulo de Tarso:My apologies. You know, how often you you how often you you go to a restaurant now and you you mention about this this this, you know, this dish not being good and still is will be on your bill even though you didn't touch it. Mhmm. You know? You you so, you know, look.
Paulo de Tarso:You you don't you didn't like that? Not a problem. Here's a menu, sir. Look at something else. Let me get you something else.
Paulo de Tarso:You know, in in any business, you are not happy with this, just don't question it. And then loyalty comes with it because they know they can trust you.
Mason Potter:And how important do you think customer loyalty is now in hospitality given the market headwinds and
Paulo de Tarso:It's it's it's everything. I mean, restaurants are, you know, having a difficult time, especially in London. You know, with this war happening, look at Dubai. They they they gonna go through a crisis. But just in general, if you're not building customers, if you're not getting that loyalty clientele, you're not gonna make it.
Paulo de Tarso:The same thing as a restaurant operator. You can shoot two, three hundred covers for dinner, but if your lunch is empty, you're in trouble. Right? Business rates so everything is so all the rates are so expensive. You know, alcohol tax, all that stuff that we need to support from the government that we don't get.
Paulo de Tarso:Right? So now in in in in in in the business the restaurant business, every little penny counts. Right? And and so now if you need to heavily invest in your team, make sure you have a team that can do that. Same thing with give them give them the the give them the knowledge, but also make make them understand that they don't have to come and check with the manager in order to you know, I'm gonna give this for our customers a dessert glass of dessert wine because they were just great.
Paulo de Tarso:You know, people want that. People want to come to a place where they feel good, and they spend their money no matter what. And now more than ever, you know
Mason Potter:Stuff's expensive for customers as well. If you're going out, you want you want a good experience.
Paulo de Tarso:It's really expensive. London is is is you know, I spent I spent 12 a year in in Lisbon back and forth last last year, and it's it's it's so much cheaper. You know, you come to London, and it's it's it's it's really expensive. So now people are questioning. People are drinking less.
Paulo de Tarso:People are not drinking. You know, I was with a master sommelier yesterday who runs an incredible restaurant. And he's like, Paulo, people people don't spend as much as they used to. They don't. So it's it's so now you you you really gotta think outside the box.
Paulo de Tarso:You really gotta be smart about, you know, the approach, you know, creating your menus, designing your menus, and making sure that there's value value value value for money because how often you go you know, I don't wanna pay £62 for a bowl of pasta. I know how much that cost. And you you're paying the rent, and you're paying for, you know, their kids' student loan, whatever it is. But and and it and it's it's sad because there's you know, operators, you know, to to take their side, it's so difficult. And the margins in the restaurant business has been so small.
Paulo de Tarso:And now more than ever, they're they're, you know, they're having a really difficult time because we lost a great amount of good staffing during Brexit. Lost a lot a lot of great, great, great, great people. And now if you're not training them properly and also, it's it's it's the business fault because you're you're constantly looking at p and l trying to cut, cut, cut now. Times like this, that's when you really focus on perfection. Let's get everything right.
Paulo de Tarso:Let's make everybody feel good. Let's do this. Let's
Mason Potter:do that.
Paulo de Tarso:And people. It's all about people. Mhmm. You know, the customer, as I mentioned earlier, they're really smart. They can feel it.
Paulo de Tarso:They can sense if they're in a room with with people that are knowledgeable, people that care and and and a place they wanna come back. And, you know, especially men, I mean, we we we'll go back to the same place and eat the same rib eye with the same chips, with the same salad every day if we can because we just once we love something, you know, it's it's our, you know, our girlfriends and our wives are going, listen. Like, can we try this different place? And how often? I I mean, I I won't mention, but I try I go I I eat out often, and and not long ago, I went to a restaurant that experience was not good
Mason Potter:Mhmm.
Paulo de Tarso:And super expensive. And the portions, oh my god. I will never go back.
Mason Potter:What's one of the things I mean, obviously, like we said, the hospitality is is hitting hard times at the moment. And I think operators, like you said, are needing to think outside the box and look for new ways to be innovative and keep customers and get repeat customer. Looking from a from a positive perspective, what what are some of the things or the thing that really excites you about where hospitality is going now? Going back, you know, the bounce back from COVID or even specifically looking at, you know, look the London hospitality scene, how diverse it is.
Paulo de Tarso:Look. I I think I think, you know, I I I've I've been in London since 2005, and not not only working, like, with incredible operators, you know, Corbin and King, and and opening a restaurant with Danielle Balloude from, you know, from originally from from Lyon friends and and but, you know, is very well known in in New York and is actually coming back to London again. But, you know, I think it's it's it's beautiful what hasn't happened in hospitality in London. You know, you have chefs from all over the world. You have incredible British chefs.
Paulo de Tarso:Thirty five years ago, forty years ago, you know, pies, that's probably what you could just eat in this country. So now you look at 2026. I mean, England, United Kingdom is is is probably the best culinary place in in one of one of them in Europe, with French and and and the Spanish and the Italians, and and and it's it's incredible what we have done here. And everybody wants to be in London. I think I I I think I think it's it's a beautiful business.
Paulo de Tarso:We're going through a hard period because of everything that has affected us now, but I think the future is bright. I think I think the future bright when we have also not to be negative, but a government that believes in hospitality and believes that we we bring a lot to the table here, you know, the employment and and the money that we bring into the economy every every single year. It's incredible. It's huge. So what do we have done here?
Paulo de Tarso:You know, as as I mentioned all the time, you come from New York. You come from Sao Paulo, Brazil. You go to a state in a hotel. That's hospitality. You go to breakfast.
Paulo de Tarso:That's hospitality. You go to the theater. You have a drink at the bar. That's hospitality. You go out to dinner.
Paulo de Tarso:That's hospitality. You're celebrating working for a company. So it's all hospitality. So if we had that support to understand you know, the beautiful thing when I opened Margo in 2016, you know, those guys that that started dishwashers and and and and and and came this far to open a restaurant, that's that's when the economy is doing well. When you see people from the business open their own restaurants instead of you know, don't get me wrong, but you you you go to everything is a mall now.
Paulo de Tarso:You know what I mean? Every everything is the same. Everything is is the same companies, the same corners, the same. We we want people that that came into this business and started from nothing to open their restaurants and doing things. There's a lot of great stories out there.
Paulo de Tarso:So so so we we just gotta keep going, but, you know, London is just too expensive, and and and it's not sustainable. It it it it won't last. You know? You know, I I recently order a coffee. It was $5.40.
Paulo de Tarso:$5.40 for, you know, for a cup of coffee. And I think that's crazy, but I don't wanna complain. But I so I I I look. I think the future bright. I think London is a city that is always gonna do well.
Paulo de Tarso:We're going through a period. And and and the the the unfortunately, I was gonna say the the good ones will always be there. But unfortunately, we're in the phase where the good ones are closing also. Mhmm. So we just gotta be very conscious of that.
Mason Potter:Last question. What do you think is one thing that people can do to improve hospitality?
Paulo de Tarso:For me, it's always service. Service. Whether it's a hotel, a restaurant, or a pub. Okay? You you you need to understand that.
Paulo de Tarso:A customer's walking through your door. They made the time and the effort to come to your establishment. Now, you know, how can I how can I how can I anticipate? How can I create an environment that the person wants to come back and bring their friends? You know?
Paulo de Tarso:So I I think it's service. It's it's it's it's educating your team. It's doing training all the time. It's about getting those the the young people and the older people or whatever really engaged with your customer, you know, constantly getting feedback. You you know, I you know, I you you don't like this.
Paulo de Tarso:Not a problem at all. Let me feed this back. I'll take her off. Here's the menu. Whatever it is.
Paulo de Tarso:You know? You mentioned early, I I I I stayed in a hotel in in in in Lisbon that didn't have a lobby. I mean, I'm sorry. I I gotta check-in. I couldn't find anybody to do anything.
Paulo de Tarso:So, you know, I I want the human interaction. I want to talk to people. I want to to to to to be present and but be a service. We're all here for service. What what is your job?
Paulo de Tarso:Fulfill your role in the best of your ability. It's the same way you go to John Lewis and you go, excuse me, can you tell me? Oh, no. No. It's not my department.
Paulo de Tarso:That tells me everything. That's not my department. That person, I'm sorry. You shouldn't be there. If you go to Harris, I I hope they still do that.
Paulo de Tarso:They will take you there. Okay. Let me show you the way, sir. It's such a big store. So that's the hospitality is is the service is is is is is listening, paying attention, and and and and looking after and deliver hospitality.
Paulo de Tarso:That's it.
Mason Potter:Amazing. Thank you so much for coming out. I really, really appreciate it. Hopefully, you've enjoyed it as well.
Paulo de Tarso:No. Thanks, Mason. I I'm I'm really glad we did this. Yeah, thank you so much for having
Mason Potter:me. Good. Thank you.