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In this episode, Jaime is joined by licensed marriage and family therapist Veronica Cisneros to explore the unique challenges that high-achieving women often face in marriage—and what they can do about it. Veronica shares her own wake-up call moment at the bank, how she reclaimed her identity, and why success can sometimes create rifts in a relationship. Together, they unpack the emotional toll of running away from unhealed pain, how vulnerability can be a superpower, and what steps to take when you feel like you’ve lost yourself in your relationship.
Need help from Veronica? Contact her by visiting www.veronicacisneros.org.
Need help from Veronica? Contact her by visiting www.veronicacisneros.org.
If you are in need of legal assistance in North Carolina, contact us at Gailor Hunt by visiting www.divorceistough.com.
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While the information presented is intended to provide you with general information to navigate divorce without destruction, this podcast is not legal advice. This information is based on specific to navigating relocation by the law in North Carolina. If you have any questions before taking action, consult an attorney who is licensed in your state.
Creators and Guests
What is A Year and a Day: Divorce Without Destruction?
Board-certified family law attorney Jaime Davis and her guests provide information and tips for getting through a separation and divorce without destroying family relationships or finances. From marriage therapists and financial planners to private investigators and parenting coordinators, learn how to navigate divorce without destruction.
Jaime - 00:00:05:
Welcome to A Year and a Day. I'm Jaime Davis, board-certified family law attorney at Gailor Hunt. On this show, I talk with lawyers, psychologists, and other experts with the goal of helping you navigate divorce without destruction. In this episode, I'm talking with Veronica Cisneros. Veronica is a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes in guiding high-achieving women through challenges in marriage and self-discovery. She has dedicated her career to helping women reclaim their priorities and strengthen their relationships without losing their own identities. Through her work, she empowers women to communicate openly, set boundaries, and embrace vulnerability. Veronica is here to share her insights on why successful women face unique risks in marriage and how they can overcome them to find fulfillment in both their personal and professional lives. Thanks for joining me, Veronica.
Veronica - 00:01:04:
Absolutely, Jaime. Thank you so much for having me.
Jaime - 00:01:07:
So can you start by telling us a bit about your journey? How did you realize that focusing on your needs could positively impact your marriage?
Veronica - 00:01:18:
Well, I was one month away from divorce. Court papers were filed. It was done. We had just had, she's now 22, but we had just had our oldest. She was maybe a month old. And there I was in it, a thousand percent in it. And I didn't realize that my entire identity was wrapped up in my husband in his career and what he was doing. I had stopped going to school because we needed to move and didn't continue to pursue it because I get to be a stay-at-home pregnant woman. And then I eventually will be a stay-at-home mom. And so for me, it was like, okay, this is the way it needs to be. And here I am met with divorce papers. And then it really hit me when I was there at the bank about to pay our bills. And this is before everything was electronic. And the teller told me that I didn't have a bank account. And I was like, that's crazy. Yes, I do. Check it again. And here I am with all of my bills, ready to go ahead and get these money orders. And I told her, well, look it up. It's under Willie Cisneros. And she was not very nice. She looked at me and said, well, he has an account. You don't. Oh, okay. So there I am. Put all my bills, you know, in my purse, grabbed my daughter. She was in a car seat after I had waited an hour and a half in line because I was there on payday where a bunch of Marines were also in line and walked like this walk of shame. And it was like. Never. Again. I need to get my butt in gear.
Jaime - 00:03:06:
Absolutely. That is a powerful, powerful moment to be standing there in the bank like that with your daughter.
Veronica - 00:03:13:
Yeah, yeah. And no money, no money. It was like, okay, we got to get this going. And I wasn't even there in line to empty out the account.
Jaime - 00:03:22:
Right.
Veronica - 00:03:22:
I was, we were separated and we were going through the divorce process. I thought we were doing this amicably. And. Yeah, he closed the account on me. And I was like, oh, crap. Okay, it just got real. It just got real. I need to figure this out. Went back to school and got a job. And made it happen. I was no longer in, I'm going to just wait to see if we're going to get back together. It was like, okay, we're not getting back together. This needs to be done.
Jaime - 00:03:55:
Right, absolutely. Why do you think it is that high-achieving women in particular are at a higher risk of facing marital struggles and even divorce?
Veronica - 00:04:05:
The truth is we're looking for safety. We're looking for safety and security. And high achieving women are go-getters. We will, like I said, we will figure it out. We will make something out of nothing. And. One phrase that I often hear from a good amount of my clients is, I'm tired of minimizing my success to protect his emotions. I'm tired of trying to be his motivator, his cheerleader. Once he gets his life in gear, then I can continue to pursue mine. After a while, women start to become their husband's mother. And they start to... Do all of the things to try to save the marriage, thinking that protecting his feelings and compromising themselves will make the marriage work. But that's a lie we tell ourselves. It ends up building so much resentment. And then the sulfuric acid of all marriages is when contempt comes in. We start comparing ourselves to them in where we're at and where they are. And another thing I often hear from women. I'm tired of being the one that makes all the decisions. I'm already making more money than him. I'm the default parent. I'm married to a roommate and he's not stepping up. At this point, I could do this on my own. And they start emasculating their husbands. And tapping into that masculine energy because... They vulnerability, is no longer an option. They've tried that and it didn't work. So for them, they're just looking forward and not looking back. And they emotionally tap out. And that's... That right there. Most women don't come back from. Saving that marriage. I don't want to say it's impossible. But without the right therapist, without the right tools. You at that point have both feet out.
Jaime - 00:06:14:
So is that at the place where the wife has both feet out? You think when she becomes emotionally tapped out, she's just done. She no longer wants to do it.
Veronica - 00:06:24:
A thousand percent. The truth is most women don't want a divorce. They just want the pain to stop. They just want the pain to stop. And when high achieving women are emotionally checked out. They are done. I've, I've seen it in my office. They are done. They are there to save face. They are there to go ahead and say they attempted, you know, they are there because maybe an expert might change him or change the relationship. There's very little hope. She's tried everything. She thinks she's tried everything.
Jaime - 00:07:03:
So are there any other challenges that you see high-powered women facing in their relationships?
Veronica - 00:07:10:
The vulnerability component, you know, a good amount of us are high achieving women because there was just enough trauma in our life where we didn't tap into some other addiction, right? So we're constantly trying to meet a goal. We're trying to, you know, for me, my father was a heroin addict and an alcoholic as well as a gang member. And for me, I needed to figure out the formula. At least that's what I told myself. I need to figure out the formula so I can help my dad with sobriety. And so I was hosting intervention meetings at like 10. I need to figure out this formula so that I can have my mom and she can be the mom I need her to be instead of focusing on my dad. And so what I've learned about myself is that's how I lived my life. I was constantly trying to figure out the formula. And I did that as well as in my business. You know, I figured out the formula as being a solo practice. And then moving to being a group practice, right? And then... Having the podcasts and the workshops and all of those things. I was constantly trying to figure out the formula. What I didn't realize was I was trying to run away from that unhealed pain. The Unhealed Past Trauma. And Instead of celebrating my wins, I was constantly looking for the next thing. Okay, so what? My business hit a million. What's next? Okay, so what? My team is this big. What's next? I was never celebrating myself. And I was also doing that in my marriage. I wasn't allowing myself to sit in the pain. And. Allow myself to experience it. I was running away from it. And that's one thing I see a lot of high achieving women do. They run away from that pain. I've given them an exercise of... You know, I want you to spend an hour in silence. Well, can we run? No. Well, can I have a notepad? No. Well, can I sleep? No. Can I have my phone? No. Being able to stay an hour of silence. Is you. Owning your truth and your pain. And processing through that. Which a lot of high achieving women don't want to do.
Jaime - 00:09:25:
So how do you break that cycle? Like, how do you learn to just own the pain and to deal with it?
Veronica - 00:09:31:
Recognize that you don't have the tools. Recognize that we weren't taught. We weren't taught these tools. Now, don't get me wrong. I know you are all, like next level and you're killing it in your business and you're killing it and reaching all of these crazy goals. And I'm so proud of you for doing that. However, at the end of the day, what are you running away from? Out of all of the roles you play, right? Outside of all of those roles you play, outside of being a mom, outside of being a wife, outside of being this badass, who are you? Who are you? And if you struggle with answering that, I want you to think about why. Where did that come from? Why is this hustle so important? What are you really chasing after? And if you struggle with answering that question, well, maybe it's time to hire an expert. And it's not that something's wrong with you. A lot of women think, okay, well, I don't have time for that. Or I'm not, you know, I'm not struggling with anxiety or I'm not struggling with depression. Okay. But if you find yourself in a meeting, if you find yourself maybe during a speaking engagement where you struggle to catch your breath. Where you struggle to just focus. You're feeling tight and tense everywhere. Struggle to fall asleep. You struggle to stay asleep. Maybe it's your body saying, mama, it's time. It's time to work on ourselves. We've worked on the business. It's going well. We've worked on so many other things and we've accomplished all, all of these great things. But in order for us to go even further, in order for us to be that exceptional mom, in order for us to be that exceptional wife or that exceptional version of ourselves, really paying attention to what our body is telling us and then hiring help. So that way we could take it to that next level that we really, really want to get to.
Jaime - 00:11:24:
Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask. So when you're having those feelings and you have that aha moment, like, wow, I really do need to work on myself, what is the first step? What should a woman do in that situation?
Veronica - 00:11:36:
Write it down. And I know that sounds crazy. And I know you're probably driving and I know you're probably in a meeting and I know you're probably doing X, Y, and Z. I get that. Me too. At the end of the day, though, Write that down. What did you experience today? Did you experience a feeling of failure? Are you suffering silently? Are you chasing the to-do list? What's happening and be honest with yourself. Matter of fact, If you can, if you're listening right now. Go to the mirror. Like literally go to the mirror. And just. Look at your reflection. And if you have a hard time looking at yourself, That right there is... Really clear sign. That we can't continue doing it this way anymore. And so, yeah, the first step would be write it down. What are you experiencing? And be honest with yourself. Stop lying to yourself. Because we're constantly trying to believe these lies. They're now catching up and we're realizing that.
Jaime - 00:12:43:
So once you've done that and you've written it down and you've had this self-realization, what do you do next?
Veronica - 00:12:49:
Next thing is a skill that I want to teach you guys. Being able to identify what are the thoughts attached to what you're experiencing. So is it I'm not enough? Is it that I'm incapable of having a healthy relationship? My husband is never going to get it together. My kids are going to think I'm a failure. My kids think I'm a crappy mom because I missed their play because of a business meeting. Or my husband is always going to be this way. Write those thoughts down. Write those thoughts down. And then the next step. Identify what emotions are attached to it. Shame, guilt, insecurities. Maybe it's disconnection. Maybe it's frustration. Maybe it's rage. Jump outside of the angry, sad, you know, happy. Jump outside of that. Like really, really take it even further. What are those underlying emotions that you've been trying to run away from that are attached to all of these thoughts that you've been experiencing that are keeping you up at night? And then the next step. What are you experiencing? What is your body's physiological response? How is your body responding to what you're experiencing? Are you tight and tense anywhere? Are you feeling hot? Are you feeling overwhelmed? Do you struggle to catch your breath? Do you feel an increase in your heart rate? Are your palms sweaty? Write all of those things down. Why? Your body is telling you something. And once you really, really hone in on what you're experiencing, then you'll be able to respond to situations as opposed to react based off of urges and impulses.
Jaime - 00:14:37:
Yeah, that's all so, so powerful. And so once we've reached that stage, what do we do after that?
Veronica - 00:14:43:
I love that you, I love, love, love that you said that. Get help. Call me. Call a therapist. Why? Like I said, a lot of us aren't taught this. And if you're not experiencing anxiety or symptoms of depression now, I don't want to pose this as a threat. But I see it all the time. It will eventually come. And the last thing we want is to... Being in the bathroom in target, in fetal position, because we can't catch our breath and our kids are just watching us. I've heard that so many times. Or being in a business meeting and having to excuse yourself because you're starting to feel dizzy. And again, you can't catch your breath, right? That's the last thing we want. And so really, really, whether it be a therapist or whether it be a coach, like somebody who's actually certified, I prefer licensed just because I've heard horror stories with other things, but somebody who is actually licensed, that is an expert in this field and is able to provide you with true guidance, true tools, true skills, and provide you with the proper resources to help you get through it. A good amount of them will provide you with tools to help you manage maybe the- your distorted thinking, or that physiological response. Good amount of therapists will provide you with those skills to help you manage them so it doesn't lead to that anxiety. A lot of people don't know this, but depression and anxiety, they are a thousand percent best friends. And most of the time when I'm diagnosing one, The other one is right there too. So definitely paying attention to where you're currently at. Don't deny it. Take care of yourself.
Jaime - 00:16:37:
So you mentioned this earlier, and I just want to kind of expand on it a little bit, that there is an idea that a woman's financial or career success can be seen as a threat in her marriage. Can you explain why that is and how couples can address it?
Veronica - 00:16:51:
I'll go ahead and give myself as an example. My husband was a primary breadwinner in our home. And I remember when I started hiring employees, and he was aware of the success of the business. And I remember. You know, we were at dinner waiting for our names to be called. And he looked at me and he had said, You don't need me. And I remember when he said that, it was like, I'm looking at him and I was like, where did this come from? Right? And he's like, you don't need me. And I was like, oh, babe. I've never needed you. I've always wanted to be with you. And. Things started to change. You know, our kids started to attend private school. Our social circle was different. When we were having conversations. The men were now talking to me and we were having, you know, conversations, you know, focusing on business strategies where in the past, my husband would have those conversations with men and I was talking to the women. Um, there were so many things that changed in our marriage. I was no longer cooking. I could give two craps about whether or not my house was cleaned. Like I would prefer to read a book, go to training or attend a meeting or figure out another business strategy than clean my house. I don't care how shallow that is. I'm just speaking truth here.
Jaime - 00:18:21:
Right.
Veronica - 00:18:21:
There was a lot, right. There was a lot of things that changed in our marriage and it needed to happen. You know, I was no longer worried about what was for dinner. The one that was so focused on, you know, creating this recipe book, I could give to, I could care less. And the dynamics in our marriage, started to change. My husband was cooking. He was working at home at the time. My husband was cooking dinner or in charge of our kids, doctor appointments. There's a grieving process that happens. There is. There's a grieving process that happens because where you were maybe at in the beginning of your marriage. Is no longer working. Those roles have changed. And for the better, for the better. But I noticed that even my mindset started to change. Like we a thousand percent needed help. You know, we needed a house cleaner. We needed a gardener. We needed a pool guy. You know, we needed a financial advisor. We needed a bookkeeper, right? We need an accountant, all of those things. And those are meetings that I myself are going to. And my husband is also coordinating with regards to the house. And so. I believe women's minds start to change and they start to see, wait a minute, there's more. There's more and I can be a part of more. My husband, he retired from the Marine Corps. And then he now works for the VA. And I feel so, so guilty and so bad about saying this, but this is my truth. I remember asking my husband, we're sitting down watching. Movie on Netflix. And I hate to say this, but we're cuddled up and I'm like, this is a waste of time. This is a thousand percent, a waste of time. Like we could be doing something like the kids are asleep. You know, let's make some, like, let's do something that could either make us money or something productive. And I remember looking at my husband and saying, don't you want more? And he's like, well, yes. And it's like, well, no, like your job, sure, you can get promoted. But for the most part, it's going to be consistent. As opposed to if you were an entrepreneur. Why not become an entrepreneur? And. My husband was in war. He was in Afghanistan and Iraq. He almost lost his life twice. He was blown up twice. Although physically he looks fine. Mentally, it took a toll on him. But I remember also being resentful. And I hear you. I could already feel like some judgment. I remember feeling resentful to my husband because for me, my thought process at that time, no longer, but at that time, it was like, holy crap. In order for us. To make more or do more or have all of these vacations or go on another trip to Europe or go on another trip outside of the country. I'm going to have to make more. And that right there. Was met with frustration, was met with resentment. And that right there, If you're not able to work through and have a hard conversation with your partner about yeah, you are going to start to separate from them. And that resentment is going to drive your marriage, unfortunately.
Jaime - 00:22:00:
So how do you encourage women to grow alongside their partners without feeling like they're leaving their partners behind?
Veronica - 00:22:07:
Have honest conversations. You're scared out of your mind. You're making moves that you never, ever imagined. Never imagined. And for a good amount of it, fear is right there, like this cloud over you. And you're doing it anyway. You're doing it scared. Your husband's probably not going to have that mindset, that same mindset. And it's not bad. It's not bad at all. He's different. And that is okay. We get to celebrate that. One thing that really opened my eyes. Was when I asked my husband if he wanted more. He said, this is more. I've already ranked up in the Marine Corps. I've already gone all, I've moved up all of the ranks. I've done all of those things. And I've also faced death. The end of the day, this right here, me sitting with you. Is more. In order for me and my husband to have that conversation, I had to be aware of where my guard was. And if I was willing to be vulnerable or not. Or If I was going to stay stuck in the resentment. And I realized the resentment. It was just fear. It was a good amount of fear. Fear of me feeling like I had to do it all. Fear of me feeling like all the weight was on my shoulders. And having that hard conversation and being open and honest with my husband without judging him, without criticizing him and really, really listening to understand his point. That right there helped me. Have that conversation and really understand it from his perspective and no longer judge or criticize or see it as if I'm doing this alone. And it's something that I teach couples to do, having those honest conversations, developing an understanding of maybe why it's important to you. What are your fears? Is there a childhood story behind this? Does your background have, your childhood, your upbringing have anything to do with your motivation or your drive? And even your idea of how a husband plays into it. And if it does tap into that and be honest in the conversation and allow your husband to do the same.
Jaime - 00:24:25:
And so you mentioned vulnerability. What role do vulnerability and surrender play in a healthy marriage, especially for high achieving women?
Veronica - 00:24:34:
Everything. Everything. I will say everything. Why? Like I mentioned earlier, we do a lot of things scared. Being vulnerable is not a sign of weakness. Being vulnerable is recognizing that you are a human being. You are a flawed human being. We all are. We all are flawed human beings. Tapping into that vulnerability is being honest with yourself. No longer running away, being able to be intentional. And being able to be vulnerable. With that intention, provides you with a great amount of clarity. You don't make decisions based off of urges and impulses. You make clear, rational decisions.
Jaime - 00:25:25:
So for women who feel like they've lost themselves in their marriage, what are the first steps to reconnect with who they are?
Veronica - 00:25:34:
What makes you happy? At the end of the day, what makes you happy? And answer this question. And I've asked her earlier, outside of all of the roles you play, a mom, a wife, a daughter, business owner, or maybe you're a high level executive. Outside of all of those roles that you play, who are you? Who are you? And if you don't know the answer to that question, that is okay. The fact that you're listening to this podcast, the fact that you're a follower of Jamie's, that alone says to me and to everybody else, and primarily to you, do you want more? And you want to learn more and you want to find this out. And so write it down. Who am I? Who am I outside of all of the roles I play? What truly makes me happy? Sure, you know, when I achieve these crazy, ridiculous goals, I feel happy. When I check off the to-do list, oh my gosh, I go wild with that, right? It's such a gratifying feeling. But at the end of the day, what truly makes me happy? That would be the first step.
Jaime - 00:26:47:
What do you encourage women to do who get stuck in that first step and they just can't figure out what it is that makes them happy?
Veronica - 00:26:55:
If you're getting stuck in that first step, This is where we start to identify why. Why are we stuck? And sure, I can say, okay, well, let's try this or let's go ahead and join a group or let's go ahead and, yeah, I could say all of those things. But at the end of the day, you're going to join the group and you're still not going to feel satisfied and you're still going to be with this underlying feeling. So I would ask yourself, why? Is it because I've never been taught? And then I want you to go into, was my mom happy? Did she model happiness for me? Did I ever see her experience true joy, true peace? And if not, okay, well, that makes sense why I'm struggling with this. My dad. Did I feel emotionally connected with him? Did I see him happy? Like truly happy. Did I see them connect? Or... Was everyone emotionally cut off? Did I witness true happiness? Did my mom model for me? Own, you know, self-worth. Because I know mine didn't. My mom would constantly say, Veronica, know your worth, know your worth. And women would call our house asking for my dad. But here my mom is telling me, know your worth. So it was confusing because she's telling me to know my worth, but she didn't know hers. And so there was this disconnect and I wasn't taught. And so if I can say, no, I didn't see happiness. I didn't see joy. Okay, well, it makes sense that I'm struggling with this. And that's where I want you to go first is really developing an understanding of why I don't know this. And then from there, I want you to look at the people that were in your life. Look at maybe your professors, look at maybe, you know, um, people who've attended your church, maybe even some friends. Or maybe it's not even someone you know. Maybe it's a celebrity or maybe it's an actress that played a part in a movie and it's that character, that character that you totally resonated with. Okay. Well, now we have a little bit more insight as to what happiness looks like and what were we experiencing when we were watching that movie? You know, what was it about that character that resonated with us? Or what was it with that role model, you know, that we wanted to go ahead and emulate? And that's when we start trying new things based off of what was shown to us. Because if I just ask you to just try it, you're going to say, okay, Veronica, and you're going to lie to me and you're going to tell me you did it. And then you're not going to follow through. No, I don't want that.
Jaime - 00:29:45:
So in your experience, do you find that men have the same struggle with the basic understanding of what it is that makes them happy?
Veronica - 00:29:53:
A thousand percent, a thousand percent. For men, they're taught that they need to suppress their emotions. You know, think about it when we're growing up, a man. You know, a young boy, if he falls, he's automatically met with. You know, brush it off. Are you crying? Why are you crying? You know, they're not taught to really. Open up and express their emotions or even talk about what they're experiencing. And so what makes them happy is what they're told. Your good husband, if you're a provider, if you're. You know, able to provide your family with safety and safety in a. Physical capacity, right? I meet with so many men. That also struggle with that question. And they have said, I don't know who I am. I, matter of fact, in my building. I was jumping on the elevator and this man held the elevator for me. And. You know, he started small talk. And. He looked at me and he's like, Do you remember me? And it was just he and I, just both of us in the elevator. And I said, yes. And, um, He was like, The one question that you asked me, I still haven't found an answer to. And he's like, do you remember the question? And I said yes. He followed with. You asked me. Who am I? Why am I outside of all the roles I play? And He's like, You know, that still sticks with me. That still sticks with me. But I'll tell you what. I'm on the journey to find him. It was such a beautiful thing. So yeah, men struggle with the same thing, but they're not as vocal as we are about it.
Jaime - 00:31:41:
If you could only give one piece of advice to someone going through a divorce, what would it be?
Veronica - 00:31:48:
Oh, that's a great question. One piece of advice for someone that's going through a divorce. Do not allow your emotions to blind you. I get you're upset. And if we take that emotion. We take it a little bit further. You're hurt. Rightfully so. Rightfully so. Do not allow your emotions to blind you. Provide yourself with some space. Really ask yourself, what do you want? What do you truly want? I get you're here. And for some of you, maybe there's no turning back. And that's okay. That is okay. I'm not here to talk you into staying or out of staying. But really pay attention to those emotions. I work with a good amount of women and I'm sure Jaime, you've seen this as well. Who will just say, you know what? Screw it. I don't want anything. He can have it all. And I'm just like, no, no, hold on. I'm not saying that, but I'm like feeling it. Hold on, think about five years from now. What do you want your life to look like? And write that down, write that down. What do you want your life to look like? And. Once you get really, really clear of what you want five years from now to look like, then you can focus on the now. But get those emotions in check first.
Jaime - 00:33:13:
That is great advice. Veronica, thank you so much for joining us.
Veronica - 00:33:17:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.
Jaime - 00:33:24:
Thank you for listening. If you like this episode, be sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss the next one. While the information presented is intended to provide you with general information to navigate divorce without destruction, this podcast is not legal advice. This information is specific to the law in North Carolina. If you have any questions before taking action, consult an attorney who is licensed in your state. If you are in need of assistance in North Carolina, you can contact us at Gailor Hunt by visiting divorceistough.com. I'm Jaime Davis, and I'll talk with you next time on A Year and a Day.