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"Martech isn't complex - we've made it complex." - Satya
In this episode, Jacqueline sits down with Satya Upadhyaya to unpack one of enterprise Martech's most expensive problems: the forever consulting engagement. Drawing on 15+ years inside banks and large-scale transformations, Satya explains why capability transfer fails, how vague scorecards fuel dependency, and why 70% of digital transformations miss the mark.
The conversation challenges analyst-led buying, Gartner-driven procurement, and lift-and-shift thinking. Instead, Satya argues for practitioner-led architecture, simpler operating models, and building internal muscle before buying more tech.
Key insights Forever engagements thrive when companies measure spend, not capability gained. Analyst frameworks optimize for procurement safety, not operational fit.
Real Martech maturity comes from governance, marketing ops, and knowing what problem you're actually solving.
Timestamps
05:40 The three phases of martech transformation
11:45 When help becomes dependency
16:30 Procurement safety vs operational fit
22:55 Lift-and-shift isn't transformation
30:35 The chief marketing technologist identity crisis
46:20 Strategy is easy. Execution is the real test
59:30 Audit first. Build muscle. Then buy tech.
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Creators and Guests
What is Making Sense of Martech?
Unfiltered takes on the biggest shifts in marketing technology. We spotlight what matters, who's leading (or lagging), and what's next. In Martech, clarity is power — and we're here to deliver it.
00;00;06;09 - 00;00;14;25
Unknown
Welcome to the Making Sense of MarTech podcast, where we interview leaders and put them in hotseat. I'm Jacqueline Friedman, founder of monarch and global head of advisory for the MarTech weekly.
00;00;14;25 - 00;00;18;04
Unknown
Today we're going deep on something most people only whisper
00;00;18;04 - 00;00;31;04
Unknown
about the gatekeeping and old school consulting models that distort how enterprises build their martech stacks. And it's not a small problem. BCG found 70% of digital transformations fall short of their objectives,
00;00;31;04 - 00;00;36;22
Unknown
which explains why the, quote unquote, help turns into permanent engagements for the foreseeable future.
00;00;36;22 - 00;00;41;27
Unknown
Gartner forecasts worldwide IT spending will hit $5.43 trillion this year.
00;00;41;27 - 00;00;44;29
Unknown
And so the cost of getting this wrong compounds really quickly,
00;00;44;29 - 00;00;47;24
Unknown
Accenture song alone is a $20 billion business,
00;00;47;24 - 00;00;57;25
Unknown
and martech is projected to grow from 131,000,000,000 in 2023 to 215,000,000,000 in 2027. So the cost of these forever engagements really add up very quickly.
00;00;57;27 - 00;00;59;01
Unknown
And so, to be clear,
00;00;59;01 - 00;01;00;09
Unknown
me saying all of this is
00;01;00;09 - 00;01;02;05
Unknown
not to say all consultancies are bad,
00;01;02;05 - 00;01;18;23
Unknown
but it is about the incentives, the structure, the capability transfer and how quickly support becomes dependency. And so we have a special guest today who has lived through this from the inside and now helps teams fix it. In this episode, we're lifting the curtain and asking, what would more tech look like if
00;01;18;23 - 00;01;20;08
Unknown
practitioners, not
00;01;20;08 - 00;01;21;25
Unknown
gatekeepers, built it?
00;01;21;25 - 00;01;22;18
Unknown
So first up,
00;01;22;18 - 00;01;24;13
Unknown
a little bit about our guest, Satya
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Unknown
Upadhyay.
00;01;25;29 - 00;01;35;19
Unknown
Saget brings over 15 years of experience leading transformation across brands including ANZ Bank, Citibank, Bankwest, NRMA and casinos. He's a
00;01;35;19 - 00;01;45;07
Unknown
true and end practitioner, and he's known for bridging business architecture, campaign execution and systems integrations to solve real martech problems. It's so great to have you here.
00;01;45;07 - 00;01;46;00
Unknown
Welcome.
00;01;46;00 - 00;01;46;28
Unknown
Thank you. Exactly.
00;01;46;28 - 00;01;47;12
Unknown
Pleasure to
00;01;47;12 - 00;01;48;29
Unknown
There we go.
00;01;48;29 - 00;01;53;02
Unknown
I'm excited to have you. So let's dive in with a few rapid fire questions to get us started.
00;01;53;02 - 00;01;55;12
Unknown
What was the first martech tool you ever used?
00;01;57;25 - 00;02;05;19
Unknown
Unico was one of the utopians of campaign management tools. That was later bought by IBM. And now it's actually with head sales is now called Hazel unica.
00;02;05;21 - 00;02;10;04
Unknown
Oh, man. Yep. That's quite the acquisition journey for it.
00;02;12;06 - 00;02;15;06
Unknown
number of phases of acquisition in the last 15, 15 years.
00;02;15;06 - 00;02;19;11
Unknown
Yes. All right. What is one martech myth you wish would just die today?
00;02;19;11 - 00;02;34;11
Unknown
I'd love to answer that, everyone. Thank you. Given a staggering numbers from BCD to Accenture song to delight. Martech is not complex. It's actually quite simple. And we'll talk about it. How do we actually create simplicity in market today?
00;02;34;28 - 00;02;39;13
Unknown
That's music to my ears because it is complex. But the beauty is in simplicity.
00;02;39;21 - 00;02;39;26
Unknown
Yeah.
00;02;40;06 - 00;02;41;11
Unknown
All right. What
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Unknown
is one small change you wish every marketing team would make tomorrow?
00;02;45;06 - 00;02;57;06
Unknown
I think focusing on governance and marketing operations would really leap forward. Campaign execution, orchestration, decisioning, transformation programs beyond technology.
00;02;57;06 - 00;03;00;15
Unknown
I wholeheartedly agree. Without that core
00;03;00;15 - 00;03;05;28
Unknown
operational component, you can't scale. And you can't do what you want as quickly as you want. So,
00;03;05;28 - 00;03;11;29
Unknown
I'm a big fan of that. All right. Last but not least, something we ask everyone. Who is someone you admire professionally or personally?
00;03;12;17 - 00;03;18;25
Unknown
So professionally, if you are in the martech space, if you're not following Scott Ritter, the father of modern, modern technology, you're actually lagging
00;03;18;25 - 00;03;20;10
Unknown
Oh, yeah.
00;03;20;10 - 00;03;24;03
Unknown
one you get a lot of insights from him following him. And
00;03;24;03 - 00;03;30;14
Unknown
there's a rule in Archi, you know, we had, you know, you know, history, showed the great and I follow him.
00;03;30;14 - 00;03;34;02
Unknown
And because I get inspired by him in a lot of things that he's done in Indian
00;03;38;19 - 00;03;39;08
Unknown
Oh, wow.
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Unknown
is a legacy, heritage and history.
00;03;42;06 - 00;03;42;28
Unknown
I love that.
00;03;42;28 - 00;03;58;03
Unknown
All right, let's set the stage and talk about how we're going to fix this forever model. So many companies leverage. So one reason why this model thrives is organizations can tell you what they spent, but not what capability
00;03;58;03 - 00;04;05;00
Unknown
they got out of it. So when the scoreboard is vague, the engagement just never ends. And you don't know what the final winner is.
00;04;05;02 - 00;04;08;20
Unknown
And ultimately, you're kind of a loser if you're on the brand side. In my eyes,
00;04;08;20 - 00;04;10;05
Unknown
and that
00;04;10;05 - 00;04;22;13
Unknown
should be the exact opposite of what's happening. This is we're supposed to champion you the brand. And so I would love to hear from your perspective what does the forever model look like in practice? And what are the telltale signs?
00;06;15;01 - 00;06;17;16
Unknown
Sounds expensive.
00;06;18;10 - 00;06;33;03
Unknown
if you look at so there's two things you talk about from an expense perspective, because they come to charge you an arm and a leg. And you can do that at a fraction of the price yourself. The downside of you not being able to do that is that you don't have those capabilities. So what you have basically in the
00;06;33;03 - 00;06;35;01
Unknown
Exactly.
00;06;43;15 - 00;06;50;26
Unknown
Yeah, that's, I think one of the primary drivers of why I became a consultant was to empower the team. Because I don't want to be there
00;06;50;26 - 00;06;52;24
Unknown
forever. I want to have
00;06;52;24 - 00;07;01;27
Unknown
over the knowledge and train them up so they can oversee it. Because they're going to do a better job than anyone else. Ultimately, over the long run, there's might need some help along the way.
00;07;02;25 - 00;07;03;06
Unknown
get some
00;07;03;06 - 00;07;10;13
Unknown
pointers. Okay, so you've seen both sides inside banks and also as a chief marketing technology officer, why
00;07;10;13 - 00;07;17;20
Unknown
do so many enterprise teams default to these external consultancies instead of building those internal capabilities and resources?
00;08;40;10 - 00;08;47;29
Unknown
That makes sense. And I guess if we were to look at it from the ideal state of the in and out consulting model. Like, what does that actually look like? And how is that even possible? Maybe.
00;10;55;08 - 00;10;59;21
Unknown
Would you say that's by design or it is just. It happens.
00;11;00;02 - 00;11;01;14
Unknown
It just happens.
00;11;01;14 - 00;11;16;02
Unknown
so the question would be that what steps do we need to ensure that that doesn't just happen by default. And we are able to actually have a smooth transition, which means that again, because if you look at a transformation project, when
00;11;16;02 - 00;11;18;28
Unknown
do you involve your internal teams? And if your
00;11;18;28 - 00;11;27;03
Unknown
Right.
00;11;27;03 - 00;11;28;16
Unknown
roadmap, what's the vision, what we are
00;11;58;12 - 00;12;00;17
Unknown
within our internal teams. If
00;12;00;20 - 00;12;01;15
Unknown
Yeah.
00;12;01;15 - 00;12;17;01
Unknown
put the effort and energy in training, upskilling our external teams, they basically can learn that faster, you know? So if you talk about that scale, that accelerator, that best practices, that rigor and governance, we should be able to be clear by internal teams to drive that as well very, very quickly.
00;12;17;01 - 00;12;24;17
Unknown
Yeah, that makes sense. It's really like defining, helping versus dependency. And, like, which one do you actually need?
00;12;24;17 - 00;12;25;09
Unknown
Yeah.
00;12;25;09 - 00;12;25;27
Unknown
And I guess
00;12;25;27 - 00;12;31;11
Unknown
to kind of dig deeper into talking about the tech and ridding potentially of the gatekeepers.
00;12;31;11 - 00;12;33;29
Unknown
there is an interesting component that in
00;12;33;29 - 00;12;43;17
Unknown
2014, speaking of Scott Brinker, he co-published a Harvard Business Review article that predicted the rise of the chief marketing technologist.
00;12;43;20 - 00;12;44;20
Unknown
But then
00;12;44;20 - 00;12;45;00
Unknown
analyst
00;12;45;00 - 00;12;50;21
Unknown
frameworks and vendor logic took the wheel. And this is where we're at. So
00;12;50;21 - 00;12;57;16
Unknown
one, I'm curious what your thoughts on that article, but also, as someone who has helped shape architecture strategy from the outside in,
00;12;57;16 - 00;13;04;02
Unknown
how do you see firms like Gartner or Forrester influencing client decisions, and how often do they have the right answer?
00;13;06;28 - 00;13;07;17
Unknown
The spicier
00;13;07;17 - 00;13;09;02
Unknown
the better. That's that's the
00;13;09;02 - 00;13;12;10
Unknown
right answer.
00;13;23;04 - 00;13;23;28
Unknown
That's correct.
00;13;23;28 - 00;13;24;12
Unknown
That's rather
00;13;34;16 - 00;13;39;22
Unknown
know, the nomination and the people's title very often, at least in Australia, you've only got a few
00;13;39;26 - 00;13;43;01
Unknown
Yeah. Not yet.
00;13;46;04 - 00;13;51;03
Unknown
at it, who was responsible for that. And I've been fortunate. And that's why it's good when I'm talking with them.
00;13;51;05 - 00;14;06;15
Unknown
I talk as a practitioner have having experience in all of these different areas and pockets. So it actually erupts from strategy and architecture and strategy and architecture teams always look at Gartner and Forrester. So there are a number of reasons
00;14;06;26 - 00;14;08;08
Unknown
I tried.
00;14;30;05 - 00;14;37;06
Unknown
they're saying, but they don't really see. Is that an operational fit for your organization?
00;14;37;08 - 00;14;39;00
Unknown
Yes.
00;14;50;15 - 00;14;57;02
Unknown
ability to execute at enterprise. The world is enterprise and scale. You know, you don't see this means you don't
00;15;28;16 - 00;15;31;13
Unknown
Yeah.
00;15;31;13 - 00;15;31;26
Unknown
Yeah.
00;15;31;26 - 00;15;40;24
Unknown
All those requirements sometimes get thrown out the window. And oftentimes beyond just procurement, the golf game that makes that decision. And that's not the right answer.
00;15;40;28 - 00;15;41;20
Unknown
That's right. So
00;15;47;09 - 00;15;51;03
Unknown
Yes, it definitely does. And I guess to that point, like
00;15;51;03 - 00;15;59;02
Unknown
we've highlighted some of the downsides. But like what is the ultimate downside of treating these analyst frameworks as gospel as the singular answer.
00;16;11;16 - 00;16;16;07
Unknown
instead of your organizational readiness. Right. And I've seen many
00;16;28;22 - 00;16;39;01
Unknown
but when I dig deep into it. So the first question and again strategy and architecture, hey, let's look at Gartner what the different types of loyalty solutions. And I said look, I think are three different types of loyalty solutions.
00;16;39;03 - 00;16;47;20
Unknown
You've got to play. Then you've got the hybrid and then you've got managed services and then the different capabilities in that. But then when I spoke with the business,
00;17;04;03 - 00;17;13;18
Unknown
Well, if you have a customer communication email and as soon as platform to start off with that does the job. Why would you like to spend $1 million onto a loyalty platform
00;17;13;18 - 00;17;15;27
Unknown
What do you mean? It's just throw away $1
00;17;15;27 - 00;17;17;12
Unknown
million. Why not?
00;17;17;12 - 00;17;21;26
Unknown
is to get your engagement communication out with your members and build loyalty.
00;17;21;28 - 00;17;23;18
Unknown
Once you've got some runs on the board,
00;17;23;18 - 00;17;24;22
Unknown
then you can start looking at
00;17;24;22 - 00;17;27;10
Unknown
and that's how you start having tech that coming in.
00;17;27;14 - 00;17;28;07
Unknown
Oh, yeah.
00;17;47;28 - 00;18;05;08
Unknown
well, I'm lagging behind. So I also need to have that. So it's, you know, one following the other without really understanding. Again you know what you look at my team's capability, the process maturity that we've got, the integration effort that's needed in and the overall ecosystem that I operate in
00;18;05;08 - 00;18;07;05
Unknown
what I'm trying to provide value to my customer.
00;18;07;05 - 00;18;07;16
Unknown
Right. So
00;18;28;27 - 00;18;32;13
Unknown
that's the insurance policy that people take, to manage it.
00;18;32;13 - 00;18;34;24
Unknown
Again, it's controversial, but that's
00;18;35;03 - 00;18;35;13
Unknown
It.
00;18;35;13 - 00;18;44;12
Unknown
It's a controversial. It's just an echoing of. No one gets fired for buying IBM. Now it's. No one gets fired for buying Salesforce. No one gets fired for buying Adobe.
00;18;44;12 - 00;18;45;16
Unknown
And
00;18;45;16 - 00;18;46;21
Unknown
it's concerning.
00;18;46;21 - 00;18;47;22
Unknown
To your point,
00;18;47;22 - 00;18;51;21
Unknown
yes, it's helpful to reference what these
00;18;51;21 - 00;18;55;15
Unknown
conglomerates are saying of these platforms. However,
00;18;55;15 - 00;18;58;16
Unknown
where's the use case for you? What are the capabilities you need?
00;18;58;16 - 00;19;01;28
Unknown
What does your team provide? What are your team's own technical
00;19;01;28 - 00;19;08;21
Unknown
debt? Existing like that is something people forget to think about. No new platform is going to
00;19;08;21 - 00;19;13;12
Unknown
fix every problem if you continue to let it inherit your existing problems
00;19;13;15 - 00;19;16;09
Unknown
I think that's the that's the biggest problem that we've got,
00;19;19;04 - 00;19;25;02
Unknown
basic question that we need to ask ourselves is that why are we investing in a new platform?
00;19;25;02 - 00;19;25;23
Unknown
Yes.
00;19;25;23 - 00;19;28;24
Unknown
what are the capabilities? What are the things that
00;19;28;24 - 00;19;37;00
Unknown
we wanted in the previous platform that we could not get out of the previous platform, as a result of which we need a new platform.
00;19;37;12 - 00;19;38;09
Unknown
It surprises me
00;19;38;09 - 00;19;39;24
Unknown
how few can answer that.
00;19;39;29 - 00;19;44;07
Unknown
Right. And the other bold question is that what are the
00;20;00;11 - 00;20;05;05
Unknown
You mean a lift and shift? Migration isn't the answer. Every single time. What?
00;20;08;18 - 00;20;20;01
Unknown
if you're just doing a lift and shift? And I've seen this time and again like let's take an example, you've got Salesforce right. And you build campaigns in Salesforce. And tomorrow you want to build
00;20;58;19 - 00;21;02;18
Unknown
what did that fundamentally change? Right. So
00;21;02;18 - 00;21;03;05
Unknown
It's a good
00;21;03;05 - 00;21;04;20
Unknown
question.
00;21;26;12 - 00;21;33;14
Unknown
Yes. Preach.
00;21;33;20 - 00;21;40;14
Unknown
Yes. And I think that's the missing question often. How will this change add value for our customers?
00;21;40;14 - 00;21;41;14
Unknown
And
00;21;41;14 - 00;21;42;29
Unknown
it's often overlooked.
00;21;42;29 - 00;21;44;12
Unknown
Yeah, because if you look at the
00;21;48;23 - 00;21;49;24
Unknown
reality is that
00;22;04;15 - 00;22;08;00
Unknown
Oftentimes it's. What are the costs of not doing it?
00;22;13;12 - 00;22;14;08
Unknown
Exactly.
00;22;14;08 - 00;22;15;06
Unknown
completely agree.
00;22;15;06 - 00;22;24;21
Unknown
the way you framed it kind of makes me think of, honestly, like, high school or middle school, where it's like, oh, but this person has X, and it's almost peer pressure to
00;22;24;21 - 00;22;25;01
Unknown
follow
00;22;25;01 - 00;22;33;16
Unknown
along and not be a leader and figuring out what you need, what your own personal identity would like to wear. If we're making it so simple as
00;22;33;16 - 00;22;34;18
Unknown
clothing or attire.
00;22;34;18 - 00;22;42;09
Unknown
And it's very fascinating. It's like, oh, but this person has an iPhone. I want an iPhone, when in reality maybe like Android and customizing it more and
00;22;42;09 - 00;22;48;06
Unknown
there's nothing wrong with either. It's just a matter of what fits the bill for the requirements you
00;22;48;06 - 00;22;48;28
Unknown
have.
00;22;48;28 - 00;22;51;07
Unknown
I was just so. That's such an interesting
00;22;52;05 - 00;22;55;26
Unknown
And to your point, like, you know, I'm an organization, I always want to sell cross-sell.
00;22;55;26 - 00;22;59;03
Unknown
Right. But I'm an organization that doesn't need to sell.
00;23;04;01 - 00;23;13;22
Unknown
not marketing based, right? Is can be service. Let us have that right. And I was looking at because I'm watching events a lot of like you know NZ I work with bank where Citibank and looked at a few things.
00;23;13;22 - 00;23;20;21
Unknown
So I was looking at what are the different types of communication that needs to be sent back to a customer that I'm not related
00;23;20;21 - 00;23;23;14
Unknown
Yeah. What are those? Transactional, operational,
00;23;23;14 - 00;23;25;28
Unknown
noncommercial messages. And there's a lot.
00;23;34;00 - 00;23;35;07
Unknown
Yeah.
00;23;52;28 - 00;23;59;18
Unknown
Yeah. Minute one marketing minute two compliance and emergency service and mint for transactional.
00;23;59;21 - 00;24;00;02
Unknown
The
00;24;41;02 - 00;24;41;06
Unknown
Yeah.
00;24;41;06 - 00;24;47;24
Unknown
Without a doubt. This approach to strategy architecture is really the practitioner led alternative. I think
00;24;47;24 - 00;24;52;20
Unknown
you've really honed in on it and are referring to. And I guess I'm curious, before we dive into
00;24;52;20 - 00;24;56;02
Unknown
kind of the greater industry, you alluded briefly that,
00;24;56;02 - 00;24;57;24
Unknown
enterprise software
00;24;57;24 - 00;25;07;18
Unknown
is the only option in the Gartner and for other realms. I'm curious why, from your perspective, smaller, more agile vendors don't make it into the report's.
00;25;11;01 - 00;25;14;26
Unknown
Because to get into the Gartner and the Forrester,
00;25;14;26 - 00;25;19;05
Unknown
they inclusion actually requires a bit of money. It requires scaled.
00;25;19;16 - 00;25;25;16
Unknown
You mean it's pay to play what I say indirect pay meant,
00;25;25;16 - 00;25;26;22
Unknown
but.
00;26;34;20 - 00;26;36;11
Unknown
now. There are smaller vendors,
00;26;36;11 - 00;26;42;09
Unknown
They can actually solve your problem better than the bigger vendors because they
00;26;42;12 - 00;26;43;29
Unknown
Yep.
00;26;43;29 - 00;26;44;21
Unknown
that solve
00;26;58;01 - 00;27;13;17
Unknown
Right. But again, because they don't meet those criterias, they're not in that list. And as a result, they are invisible to the procurement team because the procurement team remember what I said earlier and strategy and architecture, look at any
00;27;23;01 - 00;27;24;01
Unknown
Right.
00;27;24;23 - 00;27;28;24
Unknown
this word called prompted an unprompted brand awareness.
00;27;29;19 - 00;27;30;09
Unknown
I think
00;27;37;11 - 00;27;43;14
Unknown
Whereas, you know, the smaller vendors are basically the unprompted awareness people that they need bit of love and affection
00;27;43;14 - 00;27;51;27
Unknown
in terms of how they're, you know, visibility can be created in, in strategy and architecture team, in the procurement teams.
00;27;51;27 - 00;27;52;26
Unknown
You've nailed it. Yeah,
00;27;52;26 - 00;27;58;12
Unknown
I love talking about the elephant in the room, because I feel like so few are scared to poke that bear.
00;27;58;12 - 00;27;59;25
Unknown
To mixed metaphors.
00;28;04;02 - 00;28;08;15
Unknown
Yeah.
00;28;08;15 - 00;28;16;26
Unknown
important. And it's time for the maturity of martech to really start having practitioners view of people who've had the experience of
00;28;16;26 - 00;28;26;13
Unknown
running capabilities, ecosystems on the ground and talking what really works on the ground and below the ground, rather than talking 30,000ft above.
00;28;26;13 - 00;28;27;09
Unknown
Agreed. And that's a,
00;28;27;09 - 00;28;31;14
Unknown
think, the requirement for understanding use cases. Every company has a different need,
00;28;31;14 - 00;28;32;29
Unknown
and there
00;28;32;29 - 00;28;51;28
Unknown
is no one size fits all solution, no matter what. All in suite you go for. It's not going to solve all of your needs. And so it's really a philosophical, organizational question of do we go all in on one thing because it's easier from a procurement perspective, if we are able to simplify contracts and those types of things, or do we actually, to your point do
00;28;51;28 - 00;29;01;14
Unknown
point solutions where it's a little bit more modular, a little more Tetris, but you're able to plug and play in the way your specific needs are and, you know,
00;29;01;14 - 00;29;01;26
Unknown
invest
00;29;01;26 - 00;29;07;00
Unknown
more heavily in what's your unique assets and traits and capabilities. So
00;29;07;00 - 00;29;11;10
Unknown
it's a philosophical question ultimately. And I find it really fascinating just how
00;29;11;10 - 00;29;12;19
Unknown
deep it can be.
00;29;12;19 - 00;29;18;02
Unknown
It's so much more than just like, oh, this was on the Forrester wave. This was on the Magic Quadrant.
00;29;18;08 - 00;29;19;12
Unknown
it's so much more than that.
00;29;19;12 - 00;29;21;12
Unknown
that's a conversation for another guy. You know,
00;29;21;12 - 00;29;27;05
Unknown
Best of breed. An all in one and composable. And how do you decide that? And and again. Yeah. So.
00;29;27;05 - 00;29;28;27
Unknown
There's a lot of suite fatigue, that is
00;29;28;27 - 00;29;30;12
Unknown
for sure.
00;29;31;00 - 00;29;53;25
Unknown
And a quick word from our sponsor. Has your company gone all in on a large marketing suite but struggled to implement or see value from the investment? You're not alone. Our sponsor, high Touch, analyzed conversations with over 50 enterprise teams on large marketing suites and found that 79% report frustrations with high costs, low innovation, growing complexity, and often requiring specialized teams just to operate them.
00;29;53;26 - 00;30;11;28
Unknown
They're sharing those findings in a live webinar on February 12th, where they'll walk us through the patterns are seeing and how some organizations are slowly updating their martech stacks. If this is something you've been thinking about, join the live session to get the full report. Register today at high touch.com/sweet fatigue. And now back to the episode.
00;30;11;28 - 00;30;17;01
Unknown
All right, so taking a step back to, like, really thinking about the industry at large in this, this blueprint
00;30;17;01 - 00;30;20;26
Unknown
It's been over a decade since Scott Brinker. Original article in the Harvard Business Review
00;30;20;26 - 00;30;23;18
Unknown
defining what a chief marketing technologist is.
00;30;23;18 - 00;30;25;10
Unknown
And I don't think we've
00;30;25;10 - 00;30;26;17
Unknown
it. I mean, both
00;30;26;17 - 00;30;27;21
Unknown
the title is not very
00;30;27;21 - 00;30;28;23
Unknown
common, but also
00;30;28;23 - 00;30;40;28
Unknown
the presence is not understood across the board. And so I guess if you could define what this role is today, I'd love to hear that. And also like what are organizations getting wrong about it and why is it not being recognized?
00;32;01;16 - 00;32;02;05
Unknown
Correct.
00;32;58;26 - 00;32;59;09
Unknown
Yeah.
00;33;13;04 - 00;33;13;17
Unknown
Very much
00;33;13;17 - 00;33;14;00
Unknown
so.
00;34;28;06 - 00;34;38;07
Unknown
are better than monologue based interviews. Ask a question what's the so the way to interview candidates in this role also needs to change.
00;34;38;07 - 00;34;39;07
Unknown
Agreed.
00;34;51;05 - 00;34;56;23
Unknown
requires a again have a different style and different way of working to get that person out.
00;34;56;23 - 00;35;06;06
Unknown
Because what that person is doing is that it's actually mimicking an engineering mindset, a strategic mindset, and an operational mindset and trying to bring all that together.
00;35;06;06 - 00;35;16;25
Unknown
And in that what they're struggling is that where why press the levers, move? Do I show my strategies skills more, or do I show my integration skills more?
00;35;18;12 - 00;35;22;22
Unknown
not, no one has all the skill sets.
00;35;22;24 - 00;35;23;10
Unknown
So this is
00;35;23;10 - 00;35;24;06
Unknown
Imagine
00;35;24;06 - 00;35;25;21
Unknown
that.
00;35;26;04 - 00;35;31;09
Unknown
I'm not a very large team in my in my last role at NZ, right, I had 75 people. I had
00;35;31;09 - 00;35;31;21
Unknown
the
00;36;15;12 - 00;36;15;25
Unknown
Yeah.
00;36;15;25 - 00;36;25;04
Unknown
campaigns were built, what the challenges were from a technology data integration. Then they've morphed into transformation projects, and they've actually, you know, that lift and shift
00;36;25;04 - 00;36;30;19
Unknown
work that they've done. So they exactly know when you go from platform to platform way, what were the requirements?
00;36;30;19 - 00;36;47;18
Unknown
How do you map them through traceability? All that skills comes in. And then gradually a time now that we start looking at vendors. So why did we evaluate vendor. Right. When do we I don't need Gartner. I exactly know I had these deficiencies in my product. And I'm looking at this new capability
00;36;47;18 - 00;36;51;25
Unknown
and I need this. And will I get that or will I not get that?
00;36;51;27 - 00;36;58;25
Unknown
And am I going forward or am I going backwards. So you see the practitioner view starts coming in. Sorry, I took a long time to answer that question. Both.
00;36;59;07 - 00;36;59;18
Unknown
No,
00;36;59;18 - 00;37;00;15
Unknown
it's.
00;37;00;15 - 00;37;04;13
Unknown
It's a great answer. Just to kind of recap, some of the three lines I heard
00;37;04;13 - 00;37;07;26
Unknown
You you mentioned three different kind of pillars of what type of,
00;37;07;26 - 00;37;10;08
Unknown
minds are thinking. I think you're actually
00;37;10;08 - 00;37;13;23
Unknown
you want a marketer in that you know how to speak to your audience. You're not a bird in a
00;37;13;23 - 00;37;14;00
Unknown
cage.
00;37;14;06 - 00;37;15;08
Unknown
You know exactly the
00;37;15;08 - 00;37;23;01
Unknown
filtration system with which to translate. And I consider mops and martech the chief translators of
00;37;23;01 - 00;37;32;01
Unknown
all of the back end and the primary consultants who can pivot based off of who they're speaking to and the level of complexity that makes sense.
00;37;32;01 - 00;37;38;12
Unknown
absolutely. 100%. So there's another word like. I'll take the example from the biological sciences. You know, catalyst. The
00;37;39;11 - 00;37;41;28
Unknown
in a reaction is to speed
00;38;16;20 - 00;38;24;11
Unknown
Yes.
00;38;24;14 - 00;38;31;10
Unknown
Exactly.
00;38;49;05 - 00;38;50;04
Unknown
Exactly.
00;39;10;02 - 00;39;15;15
Unknown
Yeah.
00;39;15;15 - 00;39;21;05
Unknown
doing that with AI and that's another, you know, the autonomous marketing in terms of everything is going to happen.
00;39;21;08 - 00;39;24;21
Unknown
So that's why this role, this chief marketing
00;39;24;21 - 00;39;33;28
Unknown
technology officer or marketing professionals has to really evolve. They need to be given the right respect, really understand what they are bringing in,
00;39;33;28 - 00;39;34;20
Unknown
Yes.
00;39;34;20 - 00;39;41;12
Unknown
capability needs to change and reevaluated and constantly be evaluated based on the organization made.
00;39;41;12 - 00;39;50;25
Unknown
Agreed. It makes me think of. I've yet to see it done. But I see this role as the nexus and translation core of everything.
00;39;51;09 - 00;39;51;25
Unknown
I see it as
00;39;51;25 - 00;39;56;14
Unknown
separation of church and state. You're able to fully recognize the problems.
00;39;56;14 - 00;39;58;15
Unknown
Unbiased. Just you
00;39;58;15 - 00;40;02;17
Unknown
recognize what is and isn't working and recommend solutions that
00;40;02;17 - 00;40;07;00
Unknown
you partner with the non-technical and the technical to make it make sense.
00;40;07;02 - 00;40;08;27
Unknown
But also, I think the true
00;40;08;27 - 00;40;15;07
Unknown
decision for an organization that has yet to really come into play is this person is on the ops team, is
00;40;15;07 - 00;40;20;17
Unknown
under the CEO who operationalize is the business, whether that's tech or marketing. That's just
00;40;20;17 - 00;40;27;17
Unknown
ultimately your stakeholders and partners, but those are your business unit you have to work with to make them work together.
00;40;27;24 - 00;40;29;02
Unknown
And I have yet to see it
00;40;29;02 - 00;40;31;17
Unknown
come to fruition. I'm hoping it does one of these days.
00;40;31;17 - 00;40;42;02
Unknown
Now, I really, I think, and I'm quite. I'm very passionate about this. And I think one of the things when I think about this role, you know, one of the chief criteria is that you people should be looking at passion because this is not something
00;40;42;04 - 00;40;42;28
Unknown
Yes.
00;40;42;28 - 00;40;46;12
Unknown
like, hey, I think this is evolving. This is a cool thing.
00;40;46;12 - 00;40;48;16
Unknown
I want to be part of this. This is I'm
00;40;48;16 - 00;40;49;16
Unknown
passionate about it.
00;40;49;16 - 00;40;50;01
Unknown
Yeah.
00;40;50;01 - 00;40;51;09
Unknown
you know, I live and breathe
00;40;52;22 - 00;40;54;16
Unknown
I'm doing just enough, you know, the little knowledge that
00;40;54;16 - 00;40;59;14
Unknown
I have, I can have some conversation with different types of people and bring people together.
00;41;02;04 - 00;41;04;28
Unknown
because the stakeholders don't know what they don't know.
00;41;05;00 - 00;41;10;00
Unknown
Right? And everyone's actually operating in that zone. They know what they know.
00;41;10;00 - 00;41;10;05
Unknown
This
00;41;10;07 - 00;41;11;18
Unknown
Yeah. Of course. Everyone's in
00;41;11;18 - 00;41;13;03
Unknown
their own silo. No matter the
00;41;13;03 - 00;41;15;20
Unknown
context of what we're talking about.
00;41;15;20 - 00;41;19;05
Unknown
it actually exposes them to the art of possible.
00;41;19;09 - 00;41;19;21
Unknown
Yep.
00;41;19;21 - 00;41;20;06
Unknown
so that
00;41;35;27 - 00;41;37;05
Unknown
Yes.
00;41;45;04 - 00;41;47;20
Unknown
is to connect a problem to a solution.
00;41;47;20 - 00;41;54;17
Unknown
Well, and to your point, that awareness has to be the truth. You can. You can be aware to problems. But if it's not, actually, the true problem
00;41;54;17 - 00;41;56;02
Unknown
is like, is revenue declining
00;41;56;02 - 00;42;02;04
Unknown
because there's macroeconomic conditions or is it because we're overspending discounts or both?
00;42;02;04 - 00;42;03;19
Unknown
You know, there's a lot of
00;42;03;19 - 00;42;05;22
Unknown
different components where you have to be brass tacks.
00;42;05;22 - 00;42;08;00
Unknown
And sometimes those are hard conversations to have
00;42;08;12 - 00;42;10;04
Unknown
where you're the truth teller. You know,
00;42;10;04 - 00;42;11;09
Unknown
the fortune teller.
00;42;11;09 - 00;42;11;25
Unknown
actually
00;43;00;28 - 00;43;02;13
Unknown
Okay. So to double click on to that.
00;43;02;19 - 00;43;18;19
Unknown
How does one balance strategic vision like that competitor in that one example with operational control. Because if you get too visionary sometimes operationally you can't keep up and vice versa.
00;43;23;27 - 00;43;28;16
Unknown
Yes.
00;43;28;18 - 00;43;35;03
Unknown
If are the best ideas. But if you can't make it real.
00;43;35;05 - 00;43;36;17
Unknown
Yes.
00;43;44;09 - 00;43;45;06
Unknown
Yeah.
00;43;55;16 - 00;44;08;21
Unknown
the smaller building blocks. And do it one by one, fragment by fragment. Which means that get your basics right. Most of the time we basically want to get everything, but we forget the fundamentals, the basics that basically lay the foundation. And
00;44;08;21 - 00;44;09;17
Unknown
What do you mean?
00;44;09;17 - 00;44;13;25
Unknown
I thought I could fix that.
00;44;13;25 - 00;44;24;29
Unknown
Technology is an enabler. An AI is another piece of technology. So A is equal to b, b is equal to c. So is the a is equal to c. So again I is also an enabler. It
00;44;25;02 - 00;44;25;16
Unknown
I'd push
00;44;25;16 - 00;44;31;00
Unknown
you. I would say technology is the catalyst. If and only if you have your ducks in order.
00;44;44;23 - 00;44;45;19
Unknown
Dependency.
00;44;45;19 - 00;44;46;00
Unknown
dependency.
00;44;52;01 - 00;44;52;19
Unknown
Yes.
00;45;07;22 - 00;45;08;05
Unknown
Yes.
00;45;08;05 - 00;45;08;27
Unknown
the operating
00;45;17;10 - 00;45;30;18
Unknown
lead Us needs to go on and off side and start thinking and chalking this in terms of what are the real challenges that we have across people process data in tech, and you can't solve everything on day one.
00;45;30;18 - 00;45;35;03
Unknown
So, you know, how do we solve that? Right? So now if you look at the other way, you
00;45;44;19 - 00;45;46;09
Unknown
that's another topic for a conversation
00;45;47;00 - 00;45;50;29
Unknown
It's. It's not easy. But the thing I think of is actually vulnerability. You
00;45;50;29 - 00;45;52;14
Unknown
can't have
00;45;52;14 - 00;45;54;29
Unknown
this without being willing to be
00;45;54;29 - 00;45;56;04
Unknown
vulnerable.
00;45;56;04 - 00;46;06;03
Unknown
that's that's one skill set that leaders needs to have is being able to express vulnerability in the open and that's I don't know.
00;46;06;18 - 00;46;07;01
Unknown
We've
00;46;07;01 - 00;46;13;16
Unknown
lost a lot of that, unfortunately. And I would also say empathy. Do. But you have to have some vulnerability in
00;46;13;16 - 00;46;15;02
Unknown
order to be empathetic. Accept
00;46;15;02 - 00;46;15;07
Unknown
causing.
00;46;15;19 - 00;46;16;22
Unknown
think, you know, for
00;46;28;15 - 00;46;29;18
Unknown
Yes.
00;46;35;06 - 00;46;36;14
Unknown
Yes.
00;46;48;23 - 00;46;53;14
Unknown
the confusing beauty of that is sometimes there's more than one answer, and so it's almost a
00;46;53;14 - 00;47;01;16
Unknown
blind faith. Sometimes you can have an educated guess and it might be wrong. However, it was the right solution with the
00;47;01;16 - 00;47;02;16
Unknown
variables and requirements
00;47;02;16 - 00;47;03;08
Unknown
of time.
00;47;03;12 - 00;47;04;01
Unknown
and this is again,
00;47;04;01 - 00;47;04;13
Unknown
you know,
00;47;30;28 - 00;47;39;09
Unknown
rather than reflecting back and thinking, what were the decisions that were made at that time point in time,
00;47;44;26 - 00;47;45;08
Unknown
Yes. Those
00;47;45;08 - 00;47;50;17
Unknown
are my favorite questions to ask of like. Yes. This is the current state. How did we get here?
00;47;50;17 - 00;47;51;07
Unknown
Walk
00;47;51;07 - 00;47;52;05
Unknown
me through it.
00;47;52;05 - 00;48;03;01
Unknown
Because it could be possible that yesterday I only had $100,000 to invest on this capability. And I chose this product because that suited
00;48;03;01 - 00;48;08;22
Unknown
my bill of 100. And I can only do that procurement for that period of time. We realized that
00;48;20;07 - 00;48;26;09
Unknown
a capability and skill sets and competency that the team to get to that target stage. So this is
00;48;26;13 - 00;48;27;17
Unknown
Exactly.
00;48;47;11 - 00;48;48;01
Unknown
Yes.
00;48;48;01 - 00;48;51;21
Unknown
know again we come back to that interview style of what the skill sets are.
00;49;07;16 - 00;49;08;11
Unknown
And you can get the best out
00;49;08;19 - 00;49;09;22
Unknown
Yeah. Our own
00;49;09;22 - 00;49;11;13
Unknown
humanity has changed.
00;49;11;13 - 00;49;15;06
Unknown
it almost feels like what we've been talking about is a unicorn that
00;49;15;06 - 00;49;23;00
Unknown
I.
00;49;26;23 - 00;49;27;12
Unknown
You could maybe
00;49;27;12 - 00;49;34;27
Unknown
get, like, a centaur or a Pegasus or like a Falkor, but you can't maybe fully get unicorn. You can get close.
00;50;17;02 - 00;50;18;00
Unknown
Yeah.
00;50;18;00 - 00;50;21;22
Unknown
the unicorn can be created. But the
00;50;21;22 - 00;50;22;16
Unknown
Correct.
00;50;22;16 - 00;50;23;27
Unknown
need to be patient.
00;50;36;12 - 00;50;37;03
Unknown
Always.
00;50;54;16 - 00;50;55;16
Unknown
Yes.
00;50;59;23 - 00;51;02;08
Unknown
maybe consultants are the right answer.
00;51;02;08 - 00;51;03;23
Unknown
Maybe
00;51;03;23 - 00;51;05;23
Unknown
it's not a singular person. Maybe it's an
00;51;05;23 - 00;51;06;15
Unknown
entire
00;51;06;15 - 00;51;07;26
Unknown
set of teams.
00;51;19;06 - 00;51;21;20
Unknown
at speed, with agility
00;51;21;20 - 00;51;23;10
Unknown
where there's no retakes.
00;51;29;09 - 00;51;29;24
Unknown
how old
00;51;35;12 - 00;51;37;21
Unknown
Depends on who you ask.
00;51;39;29 - 00;51;42;25
Unknown
solutions were that 2025 50,000 plus.
00;51;42;25 - 00;51;45;23
Unknown
So even from 2010, 2011, 15 years.
00;51;45;23 - 00;51;48;02
Unknown
so estimates become Guesstimates,
00;51;48;02 - 00;51;48;26
Unknown
Correct.
00;51;49;00 - 00;51;49;21
Unknown
So our
00;52;10;16 - 00;52;22;04
Unknown
I mean the skill set for what you need this skill set to work. So you need the skill set. We've already got all of that. We can package it together for you. So, you know, we started off are they good or bad. Yeah. Good. You know the
00;52;22;26 - 00;52;27;16
Unknown
Though the catalyst potentially to get things started. So you can find
00;52;27;16 - 00;52;29;12
Unknown
your very own catalyst.
00;52;29;12 - 00;52;30;18
Unknown
example I like that. You
00;52;32;19 - 00;52;36;14
Unknown
Yes. And I'm sure there's a scientific term for all of those things.
00;52;36;14 - 00;52;38;14
Unknown
And I don't know it.
00;52;38;14 - 00;52;39;29
Unknown
I'm curious. I'm going to look it up while we're
00;52;39;29 - 00;52;48;13
Unknown
talking.
00;52;48;13 - 00;52;55;26
Unknown
essentially there's promoters. There's an irony there in terms of promoter promotion, who knows? But there's components that just
00;52;55;26 - 00;52;58;09
Unknown
keep that positive feedback loop and positive,
00;52;58;09 - 00;53;00;12
Unknown
catalyst loop that
00;53;00;12 - 00;53;02;18
Unknown
it's hard to find, hard to do.
00;53;02;20 - 00;53;03;23
Unknown
But when done right,
00;53;03;23 - 00;53;05;25
Unknown
you don't even need to worry about ROI. Yeah,
00;53;05;25 - 00;53;11;11
Unknown
that's that's where the magic happens. Or what I like to call a little bit of the the marketing woowoo. There's just
00;53;11;11 - 00;53;14;11
Unknown
it starts singing and everything is working great.
00;53;15;02 - 00;53;18;05
Unknown
what would your first three moves be if you
00;53;18;05 - 00;53;27;06
Unknown
were building from scratch and you were entering into a mature enterprise with a significant amount of tech debt and existing platforms?
00;53;27;06 - 00;53;27;28
Unknown
It's like, you know,
00;55;14;23 - 00;55;22;17
Unknown
Oh, yeah.
00;55;25;20 - 00;55;26;15
Unknown
Yeah.
00;55;26;15 - 00;55;33;05
Unknown
prioritization where the marketing manager is looking at it. This is not about campaign forward causation, which is the campaign teams looking at.
00;55;33;08 - 00;55;37;28
Unknown
This is the prioritization where marketing in it in a flacks
00;55;38;07 - 00;55;38;24
Unknown
Yes. It's. Where
00;55;38;24 - 00;55;42;06
Unknown
does that ownership? Where is responsibility? It is a
00;55;42;06 - 00;55;43;24
Unknown
tricky mind
00;55;43;24 - 00;55;44;27
Unknown
mess.
00;55;44;27 - 00;55;51;19
Unknown
the CMO says I want when the CIO says I want to win the race, who wins and how how do. So these are the 20
00;55;51;22 - 00;55;52;01
Unknown
Oh,
00;55;52;01 - 00;55;52;15
Unknown
yeah.
00;55;53;11 - 00;55;53;16
Unknown
because
00;55;53;16 - 00;55;57;14
Unknown
you're not talking about this is not an operational view lens.
00;55;57;14 - 00;56;09;20
Unknown
This is a strategic, visionary operational execution. Bringing that transformation capability, that integration, that execution rigor that needs to be brought in. So you got to understand that. And
00;56;10;01 - 00;56;10;17
Unknown
You got to get
00;56;10;17 - 00;56;12;02
Unknown
through the prickly bits.
00;56;12;02 - 00;56;14;24
Unknown
Otherwise, you wouldn't need this on.
00;56;14;24 - 00;56;22;24
Unknown
do and when you ask these pointed question, what happens is that you understand the operational reality. Again, you know what's happening on the ground.
00;56;23;00 - 00;56;29;17
Unknown
And this is not about being wrong. All right? This is all about, hey, I'm really trying to understand the lay of the land as
00;56;41;01 - 00;56;42;09
Unknown
you what the bad things are.
00;56;42;11 - 00;56;49;17
Unknown
And if you don't have a recollection and understanding of the bad things are, you will not know where the improvements happen. So before you go on improvement. So that's
00;56;49;23 - 00;56;53;12
Unknown
first layer I would like look at. The second. I would say, you know
00;56;53;12 - 00;56;54;19
Unknown
how you do Bill.
00;56;54;19 - 00;56;56;05
Unknown
So if you look at why these do
00;56;56;05 - 00;56;59;15
Unknown
these bad things happen and why do they
00;57;07;29 - 00;57;10;03
Unknown
is required to fix it. So
00;57;10;12 - 00;57;11;01
Unknown
Right. What
00;57;11;01 - 00;57;12;16
Unknown
can we automate? What can
00;57;12;16 - 00;57;27;16
Unknown
we. Yeah.
00;57;29;01 - 00;57;32;28
Unknown
kettle of fish that we need to basically solve for data governance and vendor management
00;57;55;00 - 00;58;04;03
Unknown
at? Who are new vendors? You imagine a, you know, company, you're working in a company you can't release a vendor for 12 months because the cycle time to one more vendor is 12 months.
00;58;04;05 - 00;58;11;10
Unknown
In 12 months, the market changes your market, your business requirements change in you. You've got a leasing bucket. You have an acquisition problem you want to solve that
00;58;11;10 - 00;58;11;16
Unknown
And
00;58;11;16 - 00;58;15;01
Unknown
we wonder why Gartner and Forest are always behind.
00;58;15;09 - 00;58;17;04
Unknown
Correct. So you got to look at so how do I bring
00;58;32;27 - 00;58;35;29
Unknown
you know, doesn't allow people to do those changes.
00;58;35;29 - 00;58;38;11
Unknown
So I would really create,
00;58;38;11 - 00;58;45;29
Unknown
you know, a couple of I'll cover a set of people rather than saying, I want to do a proof of concept, I want to say
00;59;23;15 - 00;59;42;01
Unknown
That makes sense. And I'm having a hard time kind of summarizing our entire conversation. Because it's meandered in a good way. It's. It's gone through all the pros, all the cons coming back to the pros and then reconsidering the cons. And, I guess for anyone who's listening in terms of how do we actually
00;59;42;01 - 00;59;47;20
Unknown
navigate martech and the stack itself, the leadership challenges,
00;59;47;20 - 00;59;54;26
Unknown
the three main takeaways that I'm gathering from this conversation that really try to summarize is first up is
00;59;54;26 - 00;59;55;10
Unknown
on it.
00;59;55;13 - 01;00;02;14
Unknown
You got to not only audit what existing consulting engagements exist for, signs of dependency or unclear value, but also audit your tech stack
01;00;02;14 - 01;00;04;03
Unknown
and what's working and
01;00;04;03 - 01;00;14;18
Unknown
what's not working. It'd be brass tacks about it. And then second, really challenge the standard reference architecture is by mapping out your business needs. First you need to know what your
01;00;14;18 - 01;00;16;00
Unknown
primary goals are this year,
01;00;16;00 - 01;00;22;06
Unknown
the next five years, and whether those are in line with what exists or what you're wanting to exist.
01;00;22;08 - 01;00;29;14
Unknown
And then thirdly, really design to enable the roles internally. And that's including this chief marketing
01;00;29;14 - 01;00;48;15
Unknown
technologist we've been referring to. And these operators on operate marketing operations and martech so that you can empower transformation and make it more than just day to day maintenance of those vendors. Because if you're going to have that Ferrari, you need to get tune ups, you need to get the premium, a lot of gas and need a really good driver for it.
01;00;48;29 - 01;00;50;03
Unknown
ISO.
01;00;50;03 - 01;00;54;25
Unknown
well, our last question is who is someone we should have on the podcast.
01;00;54;25 - 01;01;01;28
Unknown
I've been in Australia. I've been working a lot with a guy by the name of Pam. He's the head of my ticket booth for.
01;01;01;28 - 01;01;04;00
Unknown
Yes, I know Pavan very well.
01;01;15;28 - 01;01;17;15
Unknown
technology needs to be bought.
01;01;17;17 - 01;01;17;22
Unknown
But
01;01;18;03 - 01;01;18;15
Unknown
Yeah.
01;01;18;25 - 01;01;20;05
Unknown
practical, valid
01;01;20;05 - 01;01;22;17
Unknown
way of defining what that needs
01;02;14;02 - 01;02;18;20
Unknown
and I can help you understand. If you do these, these, these things will be better off.
01;02;18;20 - 01;02;31;22
Unknown
But if you if you don't consider X, Y, and z, it will have ramifications in the future that you basically get that and ways of working will not be working. And you know, that's so I think that's one person you should be talking.
01;02;31;22 - 01;02;34;29
Unknown
I wholeheartedly agree, and already talking to him
01;02;34;29 - 01;02;36;29
Unknown
fairly often.
01;02;36;29 - 01;02;39;18
Unknown
thank you so much, Satya, for coming on the podcast.
01;02;39;18 - 01;02;42;23
Unknown
It's been an absolute pleasure. Where can folks find you?
01;02;44;12 - 01;02;45;18
Unknown
Thank you so much.
01;02;45;18 - 01;02;46;27
Unknown
Thank you. Thank you for having.
01;02;46;27 - 01;02;58;00
Unknown
I.