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Join James Petrossi in 'Leave the Feed: 30 Days of Disconnect' as he interviews creators and mental health advocates about their journeys, the digital quagmire, and tips to create a healthier relationship with social media.
[00:00:00]
James Petrossi: Hello and welcome to Leave the Feed 30 Days of Disconnect. Today is Day 20 family and Besties, and I have with me Hayden Trowbridge. Hayden, welcome to the show.
Hayden Trowbridge: It's an absolute pleasure, James.
James Petrossi: I'm so interested in your story. I know we chatted a little bit before, but you've been part of the Creator economy for a long time, and you sort of went from going after subscribers. Then you found faith and scripture. And I wanna know a little bit about your journey and how it's unfolded and how you've gone through these transitions in this sort of wild west economy and how you found your footing in a.
Hayden Trowbridge: cOVID hits and it's my senior year of high school and I'm about to go to college to study [00:01:00] entrepreneurship. And I realize that's a horrible idea. I'm gonna be spending 70 grand a year sitting behind a computer. To go to college. And, and so I now say by the grace of God I, I didn't and got this crazy kind of opportunity to work with this up and coming YouTuber called Arrack.
And he was at a million subscribers at the time. And so I was in the creator world, was making my own podcasts and gaming videos and had a passion for creating things. And always had this desire of like, man, it'd be really cool to help. To help someone who's already doing it continue to grow and scale it.
And so kind of right out of high school joined this channel and in two and a half years. The channel just explodes. And so we go from a million to 14 million in those two and a half years. I go from you know, hanging out in it and, and working outta my, my dad's house, like living this crazy life with in, in the YouTube world where like living together, we're working together.
And it was just, it was a [00:02:00] crazy, crazy, crazy ride. And, and throughout that. I kind of set these things in my mind of, you know, this would be, this would kind of be the dream life, right? So I make this amount of money, or I have this role, or I have this position, I know these people. I have these belongings, right?
I live in this house, I have this, all, all of that stuff that I, I'd made up in my, my head of like what success was. And I got all of that by the time I was 19. And in that time. I was the most depressed and anxious and unsatisfied I'd ever been. And it was because I was trying to find meaning and purpose in all of these external things in, in my work and my money, in the things that I had in my relationships.
And I kind of got really humbled when. All of those things that I said I wanted, they weren't bringing me the true satisfaction that I was looking for. And so one day a buddy was came over and shared about this, this guy named Jesus. And I was like, ah, you know, I was kind of already on the spiritual journey and I, and.
[00:03:00] Was like, okay, may, maybe I'll look into it. And I was doing a lot of meditation and a lot of that kind of stuff. And soon thereafter, within a few months I started going around to some bible studies that he was hosting. And I just remember like walking into that room and experiencing a piece that I had never felt before.
And that was really challenging for me because I had spent all this time trying to figure things out in my own strength and, and try and understand and wrestle and get rid of even a lot of the emotions or, or the desires. And I found that I was met with such peace and such joy when I just. Surrendered it and said, all right, God, this is, this is yours.
So I kind of went on a huge journey there. That's the long story short, I kind of tried to prove Jesus wrong for nine months. Didn't and basically at the end of it, it, the, the decision was you could either believe it or not believe it, and I was like. I've tried the other way. It doesn't work.
So let me try this way. And I did. My life radically changed. Felt satisfaction, like deep, deep, deep satisfaction for the first time in my life. [00:04:00] Felt deep joy, deep peace. I finally knew like who I was. A lot of the things, I felt a lot of shame and guilt for it. They just, like, I, all of that felt this, like deep forgiveness.
And these things that were written 2000 years ago, 4,000 years ago started to like. Be true for my time here in this social media age. And it just brought so much color and clarity to my life. And so that's been a, a journey for about three years. And I was going down that path and really just said, all right, Jesus, like, my life is yours.
I'm gonna like be all yours. I'm gonna be all in. And since that, that, that day, my, my life's been radically changed and it's just helped me so much have identity and, know where my value lies but also gimme a way of living in this kind of increasingly complex and, and digital world.
And so I spend most of my days trying to figure out how to merge those two together, right? How do you merge the kingdom of God with the internet? Like how do you bring it to, to the internet and, and to people who are on, on digital platforms. So that's, that's, that's a long [00:05:00] story short journey.
James Petrossi: Beautiful. It, it is quite the tension, right?
Hayden Trowbridge: Mm-hmm.
James Petrossi: between material and spiritual, and it's like what we have to reconcile. on Earth. I'm curious earlier in your process, 'cause I know so many people enter the creator economy 'cause they see others in it and they
Hayden Trowbridge: Mm-hmm.
James Petrossi: I wanna replicate that. I wanna do that.
I want that level of fame. I want the achievement and I want the financial rewards. you are going through your process and you're getting that level of success, and that picture you painted in your mind is unfolding the way you wanted it to. Where was the void? Like what was wrong with. The depth of spiritual connection or interaction, or what were you missing in that process?
Hayden Trowbridge: You know, it the Bible says that God has placed eternity in the heart of man. Right? That God, the creator of everything, has placed eternity forever with him in our hearts. As His image bearers. As His, as. And, and so the thing [00:06:00] that was missing, right, was him. So I was trying to fill this eternity sized hole, right?
This, this God sized hole with the house, the money, the status, the fame, the whatever, right? And so those are fleeting. They're like you said, material. They're, they're not eternal. They can't ultimately bring the deep satisfaction that a relationship with. With God can, that a relationship with Jesus can.
So I, that's what was missing. It was this, this relationship with the person who created me. And once I found that there was this deep fullness, because I finally for the first time realized this is what it was meant for. I was meant, and I was created to be in full union with my creator. And.
Those things that I was searching for were not, couldn't fill that gap of, of a, of a relationship, an intimate relationship with the one who created me.
James Petrossi: And how is that relationship with the eternal, with the one that created you? How has that propelled you forward into a new [00:07:00] paradigm of supporting the creator economy? Like how did
Hayden Trowbridge: Mm-hmm.
James Petrossi: essence shift and what paradigm shift happened around you with relationships, the type of creators you were working with, like how did that evolve?
Hayden Trowbridge: Yeah, so Galatians five says, for Freedom Christ has set us free stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. And then it says something along the lines of, do not use this freedom as a means to, you know, indulge the flesh but through love, serve one another. Right? So I was, I was in bondage to.
My work, my money, my it, it was the thing that was shaping my identity, right? And so when I now read scripture, it says, for freedom crisis set us free stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. I see that our human tendency is to continue to run back to the things that enslave us, right?
The thing that keep us in bondage social [00:08:00] media, right? The doom scrolling. It's the thing that holds us captive, yet we can't get away from it. Why is that? Well, it then goes on to say, if you walk by the spirit, you will not gratify the desires of the flesh, right? And it says, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
Right. And so all of those things are the exact opposite of what social media and the creator economy is creating. Like, love, joy, peace. Let's just go through those. What does social media create? Hate division and discontent, right? And, and anxiety. So these things that can only be produced by the spirit of God.
We're, we're, we're seeking those things in the world, but only God himself can produce those within us, right. By his spirit. And so that is one of the biggest things that I've taken is that, the unique thing about the creator economy is that the business is the person. They are, [00:09:00] they are the business.
So their entire identity. Is wrapped up in a one out of 10, a two out of 10, a 5% click through rate 35, 30 5% average Ute race, and like they are saying that that is me. Right? That is, and if those things are lower than they typically are, I'm a failure. It's not, the business is failing or the business isn't succeeding, it's I am failing.
And so that's when I, I say, man, we actually have to put our identity in something else outside of our channels, outside of our work, outside of our analytics, right? And so having this this mind of, let's call it the mind of Christ, right? Having this heavenly perspective saying there's actually something.
Bigger right out there that informs the way that we work, that informs the way that we relate to one another informs our identity, right? I'm no longer primarily a YouTuber or a talker or an Instagram creator, right? I'm primarily a son of God, a daughter of God, right? And so that that [00:10:00] perspective, that identity shift allows us to say.
Even if the analytics are down, even if it doesn't get as much views, I am still loved by God. 'cause it's not my worth. My value is not dependent on me. It's dependent on who created me. And he says that I'm enough. He says that I'm worthy. He says that he loves me. And so I try and use that framework.
To help creators, right? To say, you were meant for more than just making YouTube videos online, right? You were meant for heavenly things. And, and that brings great, great purpose to the work that we do and the types of relationships that we build and how we ultimately fulfill what Jesus came to do, which is to love and serve.
Right? And so, what we're creating is primarily meant for us to love God and love neighbor. And so encouraging creators. In that, in that heavenly perspective.
James Petrossi: So interesting to think that one's identity can be associated with metrics, right?
Hayden Trowbridge: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
James Petrossi: and hey, all of creation is a gift from God.
Hayden Trowbridge: [00:11:00] Mm-hmm.
James Petrossi: media is a creation that learning to work with. We're learning to reconcile how to like
Hayden Trowbridge: Yep.
James Petrossi: good content developers, how to share powerful messages and not be
Hayden Trowbridge: Yep.
James Petrossi: and not judge and not complain. As you continue down this path, what challenges to arise that sort of. I dunno, infringe upon or, or poke at your mental health and how vigilant do you have to stay on a day-to-day basis to make sure that you stay grounded in the word of Christ?
Hayden Trowbridge: Yeah. You know, it's not just a the Bible says not a battle of just flesh and blood, right? There's, there's powers and principalities, spiritual things out there that are actively trying to get me away from him, right? To get me away from, from my relationship with him. And so hypervigilant and I'm not great at it.
And there's, there's grace and, and forgiveness. Or I'm not great at it all the time, right? And so, I think there is a again, if, if I believe that [00:12:00] only the spirit of God can develop those things within me, right? The fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, these, these, this way of living in the world then I have to stay rooted in him.
Psalm talks about like wise is the man who stays planted by streams of living water. And so there's this rootedness, right? That needs to happen, right? There has to be this planting that happens where I'm actually with him. Right? It says this is, you know, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied, right?
I have to hunger and thirst, right? This isn't just a passive thing. This is a, this is a hunger and thirst that I need. And like I said. Social media, technology devices, they are designed to produce the exact opposite of the fruits of the spirit, right? So if you just go through all of them, right?
What do they, what does social media produce? It's the exact opposite of love. It's the exact opposite of joy. It's the exact opposite of peace and patience and [00:13:00] kindness, right? And so there is this, kind of, there's a, a unique battle that's happening of, you know, God desires relationship, which requires our attention.
And then there's this like, pseudo God that is saying, come spend more time with me. Come be with me. Come know me, right? And so. Social media, the internet, they promise connection, right? But it's a fake, it's not, it's a disembodied connection, whereas Jesus promises connection, but it's a real type of connection that's that's deeply embodied.
And so I think that's a helpful, that's been a helpful frame for me is. What is creating a disembodied experience, right? Something that's detached from kind of real life. And what's an embodied experience, right? Because those embodied experiences are are deeply transformative. There's a really incredible theologian and, and man who talks a lot about technology.
His name's Andy Crouch. And he did an interview with this pastor in Silicon Valley named Jay Kim, and they talked about digital experiences [00:14:00] being one gigabyte of information and in real life experiences being a terabyte of information. And so these in-person experiences being massively transformative for the human.
'Cause there's so much more data that's being consumed. Right. If you and I are in person right now having this conversation. You'd be able to see me fiddling with my thumbs or tapping my leg, right? You'd, you'd be able to pick up on those cues, which then I'll ask you. You'll ask different questions based on the way that we're interacting.
And so I think recognizing what is pulling you away, right? What's this disembodied experience versus what's bringing you back to reality? And that's ultimately what I'm passionate about. Figuring out, fixing, creating solutions for us. How do our digital experiences lead to in-person action and transformation?
And I don't think the answer is go monk mode, right? It obviously a 30 day podcast, right? Disconnect. But I think there's a way to interact with it because this is a tool. It doesn't mean it's neutral, but. I think our relation to ship to it needs to change, right? The way our, our, it's a [00:15:00] formation agent and, and so it's forming us into a type of person.
So I think being aware of that, that this thing is forming us and everything around us is forming us, and if we're not spending time with the Lord, we're not gonna be formed by him and we're not gonna look like him. So being mindful of that, that. Our disembodied experiences are forming us and making us look a certain way and, and making us operate a certain way.
And our embodied experiences, especially those where we're interacting with the eternal, when we're acting, with the, interacting with the divine, when we're interacting with God, those are forming us as well. And those interact interactions make us more loving, joyful, patient, peaceful. And I think that's really, really important to recognize.
James Petrossi: That's beautiful. Let's talk more about. Embodied experiences today
Hayden Trowbridge: Yep.
James Petrossi: family and besties. It's day 20, and it's about with loved ones and reconnecting with your inner circle. If I remember correctly, at the beginning of the show, you said it was a [00:16:00] friend from your inner circle that brought you into faith.
Hayden Trowbridge: Mm-hmm.
James Petrossi: have nurturing the relationships with family and close friends really helped your growth spiritually and helped your growth in supporting the creator economy?
Hayden Trowbridge: Yeah, I mean I'm, I'm recently married too, and so having someone to chat with about ideas and, and encourage me and faith and, and go deeper is, is the most incredible thing. And so I can speak on that of having a, having a partner who is. Deeply devoted to pursuing. God with you and encouraging you is, is the most incredible thing.
And the image that has always been helpful for me, it's like, if here's you and here's your, your boyfriend girlfriend, or here's your wife, and then here's God, right? If y'all, if you're both pursuing him, you're gonna come closer together. But if you're pursuing each other, just, just each other solely and not him, then there's not gonna be that divine connection.
And then if you're [00:17:00] going off and like pursuing whatever you want, there's not gonna be a connection with that person or with the divine. And so making sure that the pursuit is both towards him and encouraging one another in that and saying, Hey, you're going off a little bit that way. Like, come over here.
So that's been huge and just recognizing like we were made, we were made to be around people. We were made to, to interact in, in interpersonal embodied experiences, right? In Genesis, right when, when Adams and E were created, God says it's not good for man to be alone, and that's why Eve was created, right?
It's like, it's not good for man to be alone. It's not good for us to be alone, and there's this, and this, there's so much isolation. And so. Being a part of a church community, right? And, and having those people who are running the race, right? That doesn't mean they're perfect, but they're, they're running the race with you to encourage you and even to look at someone who's 10, 20, 30 years my, my senior and saying, how did you deal with this?
Right? How did you [00:18:00] experience this? Like, how, how are you making decisions? Or you know, why does your life look the way that yours looks? And why does mine look so different? What are the practicals? What, what are how do I love my wife? Well, how do I stay committed to, to reading scripture, right?
Like having people like that to bounce ideas off is so critical. And that requires a ton of humility to say, I don't know everything and I need people, right? If, if the greatest commandment, like Jesus says, that the whole law can be summed up , in, it says, one command to love God and love neighbor.
Right. That means we're meant to be with people and it's not primarily for my own benefit, but actually for the benefit of others. And so I actually have something of value to add to a group of people, and you have something to add to a, to a group of people. And so those embodied experiences have been the very thing that have allowed me to then interact with.
The internet, social media in a more healthy way because I'm [00:19:00] with people four times a week, right? And so I don't have time to necessarily like post about everything, 'cause I just wanna be with people. And so I cannot under understate the importance of just being around people, but also being around people.
Who what the Bible says is like ironing, sharpening that, that believe similar things, but might be a little bit more developed. Can form you. And, and, and there can be this kind of building on, on one another. And, and that's been massively, massively helpful for me, having those types of people in my life.
James Petrossi: What advice would you have for creators that might be living a disembodied experience of chasing followers and feeling that they have eternal connection
Hayden Trowbridge: Mm-hmm.
James Petrossi: eternal connection digitally is somewhat of an illusion. be your advice on how they could back to more fulfillment by nurturing relationships that are maybe closer to them, that they've lost sight of.
Hayden Trowbridge: Let me say this. [00:20:00] We were all created to create like all of us, right? God was, he created everything in six days. He rested on the seventh, and so he's a massively a creative person. And it says that we bear his image. So that's a really interesting thing. So if we reflect God, if we bear, if we bear his image, then we too are made to create, right?
Whether that be art or YouTube videos or chairs or whatever, right? Jesus was a carpenter, right? He was making things with his own two hands. So we were, we were created to create, but we weren't made to create for our glory, for our honor. For our immortality, for our selfish gain, right? We were created to create and to glorify God, right?
And so that's the story of the Tower of Babel, right? It's like they figured out how to make bricks and they, [00:21:00] they built this, this tower to heaven to try and be like, God, and then God, you know, says absolutely not right? They were trying to build their, their, they build their way to heaven. They were trying to become Gods themselves.
And so. That at our core, right? The, the desire to want to build and make and grow and create things that is a, that is a God-given desire, but it is meant for his good pleasure, right? It is meant to bring him glory and Him honor. And so I'd say to, to creators who are, who are creating things oftentimes, why it might feel like there's all this stress or this anxiety, or I need to upload or I gotta do this, or it's, it's because it's for your glory and for your honor, and for you.
To make your name great. But God invites us into a different life, right? A life of creative flourishing that is restful, right? That is, that is done for his honor and for his glory. And I think that's a super underrated thing. And, and something that we forget. It's, it's not that, it's not that creating is is bad, [00:22:00] but creating for the wrong reasons is ultimately gonna lead to, it's gonna lead to spiritual, emotional, mental death.
Right? And, and that's what I experienced. I was building things from my glory from my honor from my name and the only the fruit of that was. Deep pain, deep anxiety, right? Deep depression. But as soon as I started building things, not just for him, but with him recognizing he is with me, his Holy Spirit dwells within me, and that I could actually go out and create things that honor him and reflect him, his character, his nature.
It just, there's this massive inspiration. The heart completely changes, right? Because it's not, it's not self-centered, it's, it's for him. And so if, you're feeling that, I would say like follow Jesus, right? Follow him and, experience his leverage. John three 16 says, for God so loved the world, he gave his only son that whoever believed in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Right? And so that God size hole that you're trying to fill [00:23:00] with making YouTube videos, getting the million views, making the money, it's like I had that and it still couldn't fill the hole. But as soon as I encountered Jesus, it filled that hole and it, it changed my life. So that would be my advice.
Like you are created to create for. His good pleasure and we are also called to enjoy that as well. We we're not just creating from a place of desperation where it just has to be difficult. I believe that we're meant to enjoy that process. But it can only be enjoyed within that container of relationship with him.
'cause that's where flourishing happens. 'Cause it's for him, not for us.
James Petrossi: I think that's beautiful of maintaining that spiritual connection because when you have that connection with Jesus, any spiritual deity that someone might believe in, it really strengthens their inner circle because their openness. Is reached a new paradigm and you're not closed off to I, I, I, I, I [00:24:00] have to achieve this.
Hayden Trowbridge: Hmm.
James Petrossi: how do I unleash my essence in a positive way and what are the new connections that form around me that help to enable that and to help flourish and grow? And I think that's something beautiful about surrendering is surrendering isn't. Letting go things that are important to you or you're interested in. It's letting go to the ego in that process and realizing that if you follow your heart and you follow God's path, the doors will open, the connections will be made, and you'll have success like you've never had before because it's fulfillment, right? A, a deep fulfillment now. Right now
Hayden Trowbridge: Right.
James Petrossi: about leave the feed.
This is a 30 day challenge. Some people are going through the book, they're going through all 30 days. Others are just listening to this podcast because they want to have a healthier relationship with social media and learn from extremely wise young men like [00:25:00] yourself. What advice would you have for anyone that needs to disconnect, to reconnect to God or any other aspects of life, family, friends. What are the benefits of having those sabbaticals away from digital technology and social media
Hayden Trowbridge: Yeah, maybe I just need to preach to myself here because I haven't been the, the best at it. But, we feel it. You feel it. I feel it. We were made for more. We weren't made for this to just scroll away, scroll our lives away. We, when we do that, at the end of it, we feel deeply. Something's off about that, right? Even this, like, this is great, but like, something's like, oh man, like I want to just like.
I wanna move my, I I wanna, you know, I wanna get closer. I wanna, I want to interact right there. There's something this is only a gigabyte, right? , And I know, I know 'cause I've experienced it that I was made for a terabyte. I was made for even 10 terabytes a hundred. Like I was made for more.
You were made for [00:26:00] more. The people listening, they're made for more. And so I think starting there recognizing, hey, that, that deep desire that you feel for more like. Listen to that. Right? Be curious. Why do I feel that? Right? What might be calling me out?
And that's what I did, right? It's like I had all of these things, sorry, I, I was on social media, I was doing the things, I was, I had the cool job, right? And yet I still felt deeply disconnected right? To especially the people around me. Right. In that time where I was deeply involved with social media working for the channel, like my relationships with my friends and family were deteriorating.
My, my brain was so jacked up that I couldn't even interact with people in a, in a deeply loving and compassionate way. And so it was this call out towards more right of, there's something, there's something more for you. So I would say listen to that and recognize that that is not, it is not something [00:27:00] that can be experienced in this world, right.
The Bible says that the heart is deceitful, right? And it's like I was following this inner compass, right? And I recognize that even my inner compass was pulling me in a wrong direction, right? And so there was this, this need of, there's actually something outside of me, something outside of this world
that is calling my name and I need to listen to that. And so this isn't a, you know, delete Instagram problem. This isn't a, you know, be a digital monk problem, like, or that's not the solution right there. There's something deeply spiritual going on. And that's the voice. And, and, and that, that would be my vi my advice is like.
Listen to that and seek, right, like Jesus says, follow me. Right? He doesn't say do this, this, this, this, this. He just says, follow me. Right? So follow his voice. Says, those who seek him will find him, right? So if you, if you're not looking, if you're not seeking, you can't, you can't find it. So it's not until we seek that we find.
And so recognize that you're made for [00:28:00] more from just like a, from a practical standpoint, like don't scroll on social media for six hours a day. Like go out and, you know, know the joke is like touch grass, but it's like,
James Petrossi: Yeah,
Hayden Trowbridge: powerful and I need to hear that because I don't do that all the time.
And when I don't, I feel something's wrong. Right. When I'm just on calls all day and I'm not interacting with people in person, something feels off. And so I think listening to that call for more.
James Petrossi: well this medium that we're communicating in right now might just be a gigabyte, but you have
Hayden Trowbridge: Yeah.
James Petrossi: Immeasurable amount of wisdom and scripture. So I, I think that's what's interesting about social media and digital technology is that when used for the right reasons, beautiful messages can be shared to inspire others.
So we can all have that more meaningful, deep and riched connection with one another. So we part ways, any other essential words of wisdom you wanna [00:29:00] drop?
Hayden Trowbridge: I love that word. Beautiful. And it's funny you say that and it's, it's kind of a wink from God at me. I'm currently building something called beautiful Internet. And the whole idea, the whole point is that I believe that the internet should be beautiful. And right now it's not and beautiful would be defined for me.
How I define it is that which reflects the character in nature of Christ. And so he was beautiful. He made beautiful things. He lived a beautiful life. And so you know. If there is a call, right? If there is this call, like there's something more I, I believe that the internet is a way that you can make those things happen, right?
Or that, that you can, that you can experience some of those things. Apologies for my screaming dog. But social media and the internet is not the problem, right? It's, it's at the, at the core of everything, it's a sin problem. It's how we relate, how we relate to things. So rather than trying to fix a behavior, we have to say, actually no, there's this sin that is within me that [00:30:00] I need help with, that I can't fix on my own.
And I have found that, that the only way that that could be. Repaired, restored, renewed, redeemed. And the only way that that can actually be, that we can have a new way of life is through experiencing the deep, deep, deep relationship and love that is found in Jesus. And, and experiencing his forgiveness.
So that we might actually be. Right, that we might experience the freedom, right, for freedom crisis, set us free. And that that freedom is, is found in Christ and when we find it in Christ, he gives us his spirit so that we might actually live lives of fullness. And, and so , I believe that the internet has has the ability not to do that, but to create environments where people might actually , experience that and, and come to know that. So that would be my, that would be my final, my final,
James Petrossi: mic drop. I
Hayden Trowbridge: yeah.
James Petrossi: Well, thank you so much. You've
Hayden Trowbridge: Yeah.
James Petrossi: amazing guest. I really appreciate you and for everyone [00:31:00] listening, to this channel. Listen to the episodes, get inspired. Don't be afraid to disconnect, and please leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you. Thank you again, Hayden so much.
Really appreciate you and may God be with you.
Hayden Trowbridge: Absolute pleasure.