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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
Tyson Popplestone (00:01.642)
Welcome to the relaxed running podcast the show that helps runners and athletes and running based sports Transform the way they run. Here's your host Tyson Popplestone Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the relaxed running podcast tossing popplestone here today in the show We are joined by Abderran and Finn the author of a book called running with the Kenyans discovering the secrets of the fastest people On earth. I recently finished this book about two weeks ago
It took me about four days to read. It was one of those books that once you pick up, you just cannot put down. As a bloke who's constantly admired Kenyan distance runners and been intrigued as to what makes them so good, it was a book that just delves into that question in a way that I've seriously never really come across before. It was a really in-depth breakdown of so many things that I'd never considered as potential reasons that these Kenyan athletes are so dominant.
Abderran Anfint has an interesting story. He's from Devon in the UK. And as a young hopeful in the running world, he stepped away from the sport for quite a while. Then in his mid-30s, he decides to come back. And in a big way, as a journalist, wanted to sell the idea of moving to attend in Kenya with his wife and children to go and discover whether he could apply the secrets of the Kenyans to his own running and have a late uptick in the times that he was running. We cover so much throughout this conversation from
What surprised him about the dominance? What surprised him about the lifestyle, the food, the mindset, the training? What he admired about coaches like Patrick Tseng and Brother Colm in the Kenyan region of Iten? What he learned from running with Olympic champions, young hopefuls? What the Kenyans had to teach him about form and technique? What he believes the benefits of running barefoot as young kids are and how even in Kenya now they're losing sight of this? The truth is the...
Kenyon's story is unbelievable, and I felt like him and I were just scratching the surface today. I told him we would talk for an hour, which is why the conversation cuts off there, but the truth is we could have talked for another five hours and still had so much to talk about. It's not his only book. I've listed a link to a number of his other books in the description to this episode below, but I'm really excited to bring this one to you. It was a whole heap of fun. I was sitting there in this conversation thinking, man, I love this show. I love the chants.
Tyson Popplestone (02:24.106)
I get to sit down and pick the brains of people like this. It was a fun chat. Just a reminder, if you're an athlete in a running-based sport or a triathlete, a runner, you need help with either running coaching or technique analysis. Jump across to relaxrunning.com, get in touch. Love to work with you. It's a big passion of mine to make sure that I help answer the questions that you have, eliminate the stress in structuring training. Got a whole lot of packages to suit what it is that you're looking for. So have a look there. Any questions, reach out. But for day...
Let's jump into the show with first time guest and author of Running with the Kenyans, Abderranand Finn. Beautiful. Well, as I was saying to you, I've recently finished Running with the Kenyans and as a lover of distance running for as long as I can remember, and in particular a lover of East Africans, but particularly Paul Turgat from Kenya, Noe Nyen from Kenya, Bernard Laggett, former Kenyan.
I've got a real soft spot in my heart for the Kenyans, which is, I think how your book came onto the radar. Someone recommended it to me and as soon as I heard about it, I thought, okay, I'm going to have to delve into this. I commute quite a lot from where I live into Melbourne, about an hour and a half drive. And I reckon after about two and a half drives there and back, the book was done. And I was so sad because it was just, I felt like I was on the journey there with you. It's really interesting to hear about the trip, which we'll get into.
so many of the principles and characteristics that you speak about in such great detail. But I thought what might be a really good way to kickstart the conversation of how you actually even ended up in Kenya, which you actually kickstart the book with, was a little bit about your own story through high school and college and your running journey and your fascination with what actually might lead to, you know, perhaps a breakthrough in your latter half of your athletics career for lack of a better description.
Tyson Popplestone (04:19.126)
Post post. Yeah, I might have had an athletics career if I'd started before I was 35. But yeah, I was a yeah, I was quite a serious junior athlete, although I did get quite a few injuries, but I was quite obsessed with running and there was one year the world so I and I was a big fan of the Kenya manners. I mean, people you mentioned Paul Turgat winning all those World Cross Country Championships and who else done like?
I mean, I had a particular favorite race, which was the world championships. I think it was 1993, the 5,000 meters, Ishmael Karuri. He just like blasted away at the front and they were calling it like suicidal and Khalid Scar was the favorite and there was some three Ethiopians and he just, something about the way the Kenyans ran, they would just attack the race or they would just suddenly go for it. They didn't seem to have any kind of fear. And so I was always kind of fascinated by them, but when I thought about it, I didn't really know anything about them.
And there was one year the World Cross Country Championships were in the UK and I went to watch it and it was actually Ismail Karoui so he was kind of my favourite runner. I can't remember whether he won or came second but he was right at the front and there was one moment where I was just at this corner I was standing, he made his break and he came round the corner like, it was like full sprint, I was like in the middle of a cross country and I was just like what? This is crazy.
So yeah, so I had this kind of fascination with the Kenyans and the way they ran, but that World Cross-Country Champs was quite interesting as well because the junior race was won by a Finnish athlete called Anna-Marie Sandell, the junior women's race. And then I was quite amazed because it was her and then like a whole bunch of Kenyans and Ethiopians. I was like, that's amazing. She beat them. And then I read that she'd been out training in Kenya. And just something in my head was like, wow, that must be like the magic formula. You know, you go out to Kenya,
and you become this, that's how you do it. It's something going on out there. There must be something, but I didn't know what it was. But then I kind of stopped running for about 10 years, or at least stopped being competitive anyway. I still ran for myself. I just had a few too many injuries. But that story had always sat in my mind that maybe there was something in the water or something, if you went out there, you just somehow pick it up. And I wasn't expecting to be World Cross Country Champion, but you might have some huge improvement.
Tyson Popplestone (06:40.566)
And so then in my 30s, early 30s, I started running again. And by then I was a journalist and I had this idea. I would like to write a book. Uh, and I was, I was kind of at the same time looking for a subject and I was writing quite a lot about running. I was writing for runners world magazine. And I just, yeah, I just kind of came on this idea of like, what if you went to Kenya and you train them, part of me was like to tell the story of the Kenyans. Uh, because in some ways it's like.
And when I thought about it, I thought this is like the craziest story in sport. You've got the world's most universal, most accessible sport. I mean, every big city in the world has a half marathon or a marathon with thousands of people running and almost every one of them is one by Kenyans or Ethiopian from this tiny corner of East Africa. It's almost like the Gauls, Asterix and Obelix. So he's kind of super powered. So I was like, what's the, you know, it must be some kind of story. And I realized I had no idea what, what their lives were like, who they were. You know,
what they thought about, what they did. It was just such an unknown quality and quantity to it. And I remember looking up online to see, I thought I'd love to read a book about that and there wasn't one. So I thought, oh, no one's written a book. No one's been out there and told this story. So part of me was that the journalist was like, this is a story. This is incredible. Someone's going to go out there and tell this story. And then part of me was also thinking about Anna Marie Sandel and thinking, yeah, maybe I'll come back and I'll be a super athlete. So
By the time I got out there, I guess I was like 35, I think. So my goals were a bit more kind of tapered down a bit from World Cross Country Champion to probably, I think I had the goal of running a sub three hour marathon by that point. So yeah, so when I sat out there, that was my, I had never run a marathon at that point. So yeah, so then off we set with family in tow. I had three small children and yeah, that's another element of the story.
Yeah, it was a fun element to listen to actually. I think your daughters may have been slightly older than what my two boys are at the moment, but I sort of kept going back to my wife, Jessie, and just giving a little update on what was going on in the story. And I'm not sure if I was subconsciously or subliminally trying to suggest the idea that perhaps it's a good idea for our family to make the same track as what you guys did. But
Tyson Popplestone (09:02.826)
I mean, she was definitely open to the idea. I think it's just the flight that scares us more than anything. We had a couple of trips with our boys last year and we flew from Australia to America. And that was enough to scare us from international travel until they're a little bit older. But I've got to say, I was laying down on the couch at my place listening to the part of the story where you spoke about Ishmael Kouroui from the 1993 World Champs. And I paused the book, I turned on YouTube and I watched the race. I'd never seen it before.
And it was, yeah, right. It was, it was one of the most mind blowing races. The only race I think that can match it from a world championships perspective, at least over 5,000 meters in, in my opinion was the 2003 world championships in Paris with, uh, you had Ali Kipchoge as a 17 year old, you had Hichamel Garouge and you had Kenanisha Bakili in his prime as well. And at 17, uh, sort of Ali Kipchoge that last 80 meters ran around. But obviously it was a very different race to what you were.
or what we witnessed with Karui. That was one of the most amazing things. And it was slightly before the time that I got really interested in athletics. So somehow it had slipped, uh, past my radar. But one of the most amazing parts of that race as well was just being reminded that there was a time when Deborah Selesi didn't win absolutely everything as well. I think that was the last race he didn't win for about the next 10 years, actually. But yeah, it was incredible. And so.
From the time you started to flirt with the idea of actually getting back into some serious running to when you're in Iten or at least in Kenya, what was that turnaround in terms of timeframe? Yeah, I mean, it was kind of gradual in a way and I started writing when I started writing for Runners World magazine, initially it was writing race reports. And at that point I was pretty unfair. I was still I probably ran once or twice a week. But then I kind of went I had very small children at that point.
because I was running these races and I had to write reports about them, I started, uh, I suddenly had an excuse, uh, kind of justification to my wife. I had to do a bit more training because I was like, well, I'm going to run these races. I've got to write about them. I got, you know, I don't want it to be a total struggle. So I should do some training. So, so it was a little bit sneaky on my part, but it was a way of getting back into the running. And then, yeah, when I, then when I decided to go to Kenya, then I really realized, well, I've got to be, you know, I'm going to be as fit as I can be.
Tyson Popplestone (11:28.722)
And I started doing quite well actually. I won a big 10K, local 10K, and I slightly underestimated just how good the Kenyans were. I mean, I had been a little bit like you. I had a kind of gap in my life where I wasn't really plugged into running. And I think I slightly lost touch with times. And also as a junior, I was more, 5K was probably the furthest I would run. So I had no real idea what a good 10K time was. So I won this race.
But I only ran 38 minutes, which I had no idea was actually not that fast, but it must have been a weak field that day. Just because I won, I thought, well, that must be pretty good. And so then I got to Kenya thinking I was quite quick. And obviously not quick enough to compete, but quick enough to keep up. But obviously, the reality out there is it's a whole other world. I mean, you could be... So I got out there and there was a race in a tent.
And there was a white guy, a European guy. And actually I could tell he was British because he had a Winchester AC running vest on, which is a place in England. So I was like, oh, there's this British guy running. And he came last in this cross country race, just in the local town. So I thought, well, that's brave of him, right? And he's giving it a go. So if he can give it a go, I can give it a go. Little did I know, he was the number two ranked marathon runner in the UK at the time. So I was kind of comparing myself at that point to him.
just because we were both British and he was last in his race. So yeah, that, that went, where did that leave me? Well, I found out about two weeks later when I entered a race and yeah, I've never been more humbled in my life. Let's put it that way. I don't know why it was such a shock to me. I remember you telling that story and I remember the quality of athlete that you were referring to with the Winchester athletics shirt on, but I think to hear you describe in depth,
about the actual depth that there is within the Kenyan running scene. And more than that, not only how deep and why the actual fields go, but how quickly forgotten elite athletes are in just a couple of years, unless they're Olympic gold medalists or silver medalists. Like, unless you're a champion of champions, so many of these athletes just seem to, I'm not sure, just disappear into the wilderness in terms of...
Tyson Popplestone (13:49.362)
how many people remember them. So you got to Kenya, you had 38 minutes up your sleeve at this time, obviously a pretty clear goal of improving. In terms of what the actual process of you getting into the group, I know you go into this a little bit more detail in the actual book, but with an ego check and the humbling experience of actually getting a real tune up in that first race, like was...
What was your mindset at the time? Like, did you, cause I feel as though in some respects, I'm in a similar part of my life to where you were when you actually wrote the book. I'm 36 years old. I've recently committed the next three years to trying to run a fast marathon, whatever that is in a couple of years time. And at the moment, I'm just in a very early base phase of that. But the idea of where I am in that actual process. Now, if I went to Kenya, I could imagine the humility that would come with competing against
even the thousandth fastest runner in whatever town would, you know, leave motivation relatively low. Where was your headspace at that point? Were you immediately shaken back to reality or did you have a sneaking suspicion that over the course of, you know, months or 12 months, you know, you might be able to actually get to an elite level or where were you sort of shooting for? Yeah, I mean, so I really, yeah, I mean, I was, I felt like I was too old.
be an elite runner myself. But yeah, I think there was a lot of naivety on my part. I think if I'd done the research that you're doing, if I'd read books, talked to people, I'd probably been a lot more nervous about it. I just kind of went there without thinking too much about it. And luckily for me, the Kenyans run their slow run. So this is something we'll talk about. But when they run slowly, they run really slowly. So much so that the first time I ran on an easy run with the Kenyans, I thought they were
were kind of joking with me. I thought it was at my expense that they were running this slowly. I was like, I don't need to run this slowly. And they were like, what do you mean? I'm like, come on, this is not, you know, this is joke. It was like, I work in miles, but it was like 10 minute mile pace, which is, I don't know, six minute kilometer pace, six and a half minute. They're really, really slow. And I just thought, this can't be real. So, so, and then
Tyson Popplestone (16:11.522)
The other thing, they were amazingly kind. So there were a couple of times I ended up on these, what they call progression runs. So I would start out and I was in the group. It was probably that slow, but it would just gradually get quicker. And I didn't really know, I didn't really know what was going on. Someone just said, if you go to this crossroads at 6 a.m. there's a big group you can run with them. And so I'd be running along quite happily, like totally all inspired by the fact that I'm running through the Kenyan countryside in this group of like 200 Kenyans and I'm keeping up. And this is amazing.
But then gradually the pace would start getting quicker and quicker and I'd start drifting to the back and then suddenly realized I didn't know where I am. I've got to keep up, but I couldn't keep up, but somebody would always drop back and look after me. It was amazing. And I kind of, eventually I worked out not to go on the, on the runs that were going to get too fast, or at least unless I knew where I was, I would pull off. But then those first few runs when I kind of, like I say, very naively just joined in.
Somebody always spotted me and they dropped back and they stuck with me and they helped me finish. So they were incredibly kind to me like that. And they weren't anybody I knew. They were just somebody in the group just decided, well, we can't leave that guy behind. So that was amazing. I think initially I was kind of, it was just this sense of awe. And I still feel I've been back to Kenya quite a few times and occasionally you're just out running and a group comes by.
And you just think, right, I'm just going to join this group just for five minutes. You know, I'm going to be killing myself, but I'm just going to get that experience again. And I think as a runner, the experience of being in a group of Kenyans and they all, when they're running, they all run in silence. I mean, if they're running really easy, they, they chat, but on a kind of medium pace run, it's just this silence and this really light feet on this dirt road. And you just in it and the beautiful, you know, the countryside is beautiful around there and it's just such an epic experience. So.
I was kind of very much in that frame of mind initially. Uh, after my experience in the race, I definitely realized pretty quickly, you know, I was, I was never going to be even anywhere near any of these guys, but, uh, but definitely by the end, so I was there for six months by the end. I remember thinking about it like this, what had gone from inspiring was now becoming demoralizing, like always being the slowest runner, always someone always having to look out for you, always being last.
Tyson Popplestone (18:33.106)
And then it was a real joy to get back to England and go back to the running club and be in the fast group. Suddenly I was one of the fast runners. It was like, what? This is amazing. And so yeah, for about three months it was inspiring. And then, yeah, just always being the slowest runner in the whole town was pretty humiliating. There was, at my half marathon time, when I went out there was 1.26. So that...
they, cause they all running, you know, 61, 62 or 59, they don't talk in one hour or something. They talk in, in minutes. So, so that's 86 minutes. So I remember this woman asking me, what's, what's your, what's your half marathon time? And so I was thinking, okay, 86, that's just too embarrassing to say. I mean, that's so slow for here. So I kind of said, I'm trying to run 70 something. So my goal was to run under 120, which I have done since.
But I just said, oh, 70 something. And she was like, 70? And I was like, well, not really 70. That's quite a long way ahead. But I just thought, OK, yeah, I'll just say it. I said, 70, yeah, 70. That's my hard marathon time, 70. And she just looked at me and was like, that's a girl's time. And I was like, oh, in my wildest dreams, I could run 70. I'm never going to be able to run 70. And you're still dismissing it. So that's the level of disconnect there. They do.
couldn't even comprehend my times. If I told them it was like, looking at me, you've got legs, you've got arms, why are you running so slow? And then I say, come back to the UK and I'm, you know, most people think I'm quite a good runner, quite a fast runner. So it's, yeah, it's a whole different world of, yeah, numbers. And yeah, the times are just completely different.
Tyson Popplestone (20:24.202)
wild as a dream best time being so slow. It's funny, I guess in the UK or here in Australia, the last thing you'd do is actually criticize someone's time. Even if you thought it was rubbish, you'd probably sugarcoat how impressed you really were with it. So, you know, as a culture shock in itself, that would have been an interesting experience. But it seems in that one of the things that I was really keen, as I mentioned to you to discuss today is how many variables you seem to discover which led
to the dominance of the elite Canyon runners. And obviously one of the real standout features of the book for me was just how many there are. It's not just the altitude and it's not just the group training. There's almost, it doesn't talk. I'm sure there's the list goes beyond what it is that you actually mentioned in the book. Seems like a constant discovery. But one thing that stands out to me, and you mentioned it to a degree, just with the way that the Kenyans were running their six minute kilometer pace or 10 minute mile pace.
is they seem very intuitive, like that kind of training in, you know, in the West, whether it's, you know, UK, Australia, America right now, that lactate or that zone two style training has become very popular in recent, you know, at least the last couple of years, but particularly the last six months. But it seems like intuitively the Kenyan athletes, whether they were being guided or whether this is just something that they've recognized as working, had an awareness of how effective that really slow running is.
Can you talk about that in a little more detail? Cause it'd be interesting to know from what you experienced, how much of their running week was actually done at that quite slow running pace. Yeah. I mean, they would probably do a lot of it. They would say they would usually train twice, twice a day. I mean, I found like, so I also, and if you know, I did a follow-up book on running in Japan, uh, called the way of the runner. So that, that is about the whole equity and then the professional running scene in Japan.
And the contrast is quite incredible. And so the Japanese, like people talk about, oh, the Kenyans, it's all hard work. And I mean, it is focus and dedication, but a lot of that focus and dedication is on rest and it's on easy running. Well, in Japan, they really, you know, they're training three times a day. It's always fairly, you know, fairly pacey. Uh, where the Kenyans, yeah, they, so they train twice a day in the second run almost always is at that, is at that kind of pace, sometimes the morning run too. So they just do two slow runs.
Tyson Popplestone (22:50.586)
But by contrast, they also obviously go far sometimes. And so when I was in Japan, actually, I had a real insight into it, almost more there, because they have these Kenyan runners who go to Japan, they get picked up for their professional teams in Japan. And one of them, he said to me, you know, if the Japanese trained like the Kenyans, they'd break all the world records, because there's just so much support and so much fervour around running, way more than even in Kenya and Japan.
what's wrong with the training? And his answer to that is really insightful to the Kenyan way of running. Because it was like, well, because I was thinking, well, the training, that's not normally, you don't normally think about the Kenyans, what their secret isn't usually the training. It's usually the altitude or the upbringing, or like you say, the numbers. So I was really intrigued to hear their training. And actually another, well, it's actually a couple of Ethiopians repeated almost word for word, this kind of same idea. And there were two things. One is that,
So he said, well, the way they both described it was no forest. So in Japan, all the training is on tarmac, on the roads, on, on smooth kind of concrete trails, concrete paths and stuff when Kenya and Ethiopia. I also went to Ethiopia. Uh, they do all 90, 95% of their training on trails. So they're running on dirt road in Kenya. They're running on dirt roads in Ethiopia. They actually run through the forest and they're like clambering over rocks and stuff. But yeah, then Kenya, it's these big.
wide dirt roads, but the surface is uneven and it's a bit more giving than concrete. So they felt like that was the problem. And then the second reason he said no speed work. And this was really interesting because he said the Japanese, they kind of constantly running even when they're running easy, they're tiring themselves out. They're running three times a day. And so when they come to speed race, they're too tired. He said they can't do speed work because they're always tired. He said in Kenya, you kind of go easy, easy. And then bang, you go.
when you do speed work, you do it properly, you do it hard, you do it fast. And they also do, you know, they do also in Kenya, which he didn't mention, but they when they do the long run, they do it pretty hard as well. The weekend, they do a weekend long run. And that's usually done at pretty epic pace. I mean, I saw guys do 40k, 40k long run. So just short of the marathon on a rolling dirt hill on a training run in two hours eight.
Tyson Popplestone (25:15.934)
And that was just drinking water. I mean, the guy who did that, then he then about two weeks later after that was his like final round before the London marathon. It was Emmanuel Moutai that year. He went and won the London marathon two weeks later on a, on a course record at the time. So you know, they're, they're kind of high level stuff, but you know, yeah. So they're, so they're, but in order to allow that intensity that, and that intensity of training, they spend a lot of time running very slowly. So it's that, yeah. It's kind of a lot of.
fast or slow, it seems to be their way. I mean, I know there are other ways to do it, but that definitely is the Kenyan way. You do a lot of really easy running and then when you go hard, you go really hard. The structure, when you say it like that, it actually doesn't sound too different to the way a lot of Australians at least train. I mean, if you looked at it from an 80-20 training principle perspective, I would say, like here in Australia, you've got your, a lot of athletes use their key harder session days as...
Tuesday, Thursday, and some Saturday. And the other days are all relatively easy, or at least on paper, they're relatively easy, but perhaps a little more like what you explained the Japanese focus is. I think so many athletes get caught up in the rhythm of some of those races, I'm sorry, in some of those easier training sessions. I know for me, there was quite a while in the latter part of my more competitive years as a runner.
where I was looking at that as an advantage to go out and say, rather than trying to run at four minute pace or sorry, five minute pace, I might go out and try and run at four minute pace with the intention of building up some form of speed endurance. And I think, yeah, the opposite seemed to be true for me. Rather than improving, I did definitely seem to have some level of plateau. And I think the difference from what you explained from what I understand is that, yeah, when they're going easy, they're going very easy. But I was actually gonna ask you about that long run
The NN running team, if I remember their name correctly on YouTube, had a video dedicated to the long run in Kenya. And it was a real standout feature. Ali Kipchoga was speaking about, you know, they might wake up at 5.30 or quarter to five, they start their run at 5.30. And then they're just shocked at the fact sometimes they feel as though they're still dreaming because someone's taken it out at two minutes 55 and they've got 39k to go. And they go, Oh my gosh, like this is, this doesn't seem
Tyson Popplestone (27:36.254)
Real. So with that Sunday run, is that a fairly consistently fast run from what you remember from what you know, or is that something that they tailor a little more specifically around, um, particular marathon races that they have coming up? Yeah, they definitely build up. So, yeah. So, uh, yeah, they do tend to do on Saturday, actually the training going back a little bit. The training is, I mean,
The system is very much that 80-20, I think, if you look at it. But like you say, they do the easy runs really easy. That's the kind of key distinctive part. And it was kind of introduced by the British under British rule. There's a guy, Bruce Tuller, who was a European champion, British guy, who was kind of in charge of training the military back when it was still under British rule. And that kind of training system is still there. So in a way, yeah, Tuesdays and Thursdays are still the speed days.
and then weekend Saturday long run. Yeah, I actually did a long run with the NN team. Eliyuk Kipchoky wasn't there that day, but at that time he wasn't necessarily a standout star. So in a way I didn't even notice that Emmanuel Matai was the kind of star of the team that day. And there was a young Ugandan guy who I hadn't heard of course, Stephen Kipritich, who...
Then in 2012 won the London Olympics and then the year after won the World Championships and he was just behind the man who retired that day. Uh, so I actually, yeah, I joined that, that team and actually they start the run at half five, uh, but they have to get there. So we were, we were, we had to get up at five in the dark pile into this mini bus, but half an hour drive and then we got out and my plan was to, was to join in the run, which was, I was still in this ridiculous state, uh, and
And it's a kind of funny moment in the story because I'm asking them what kind of pace they're going to be going. And on the bus, the kid next to me, you know, he's a young kid, I said, what kind of pace? He said, oh, probably like 15, 16 minutes for each 5k. And I'm sorry, I can't remember that part, for 5k. What the hell? And I was like sitting there going, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And then I was just standing around and I hadn't kind of worked because it was early in the morning. I was kind of confused. What am I going to do? And then I saw there were like three women in the team and they were...
Tyson Popplestone (29:51.874)
were kind of lined up ready to go while the rest of them were standing like in their jackets and stuff. I was like, what are they doing? He said, oh, the women get a head start. I was like, oh, this is what I need to, I need to run with the women. So I ran with the women and they were, actually, they did do it a bit more progressive and it was about 20 minutes for the first 5k. And I managed to get to 15k with them before I had to drop out, but they were all doing 40k. And the men came flying past at about 10k in and yeah, they were moving like
Like I say, that day he ran 208. I think in theory they built it up progression wise. But yeah, so that was that experience. But in terms of, yeah, I don't think they always do a 40K every weekend on...
And there were different guys that they said, Emmanuel Matai was, you know, he was a few, maybe it was three weeks out from London. So it was his last big hard run where some of the other ones didn't have a marathon coming up quite so soon. So they actually stopped earlier and the group did spread out. He was really pushing it. Some of them were probably pushing it a bit less. But yeah, the general idea is that it's, it's kind of a race pace long run. The other interesting thing is, I mean, this may have changed now, but they weren't taking on anything other than water.
and they didn't eat before they ran either. So they did all this on an empty stomach, just water. And then we got back to the camp and I was starving. I was staying at their running camp. And it was probably 10 o'clock in the morning by then. And they all just kind of sat around and I was like, surely we're gonna get some food at some point, but they had tea. So they do have, it's like their recovery drinks, like tea with a lot of milk and a lot of sugar, very sugary tea. So I guess in a way it's got.
protein and fats and sugar. But yeah, I was amazed. We didn't eat until lunchtime then. I'm not saying this is necessarily what is advised, but this is what happened that day. And yeah, I mean, I think things have changed a little bit since then, although in some ways, I kind of feel like when you look at Kenyan performances, and of course you've had Elliot Kipchegi appear since then, and now Kelvin Kipchum, and there'd been some amazing times on the women's marathon.
Tyson Popplestone (32:03.358)
In terms of Kenyan dominance of marathon running and in fact, distance running in general, 2011, the year I was there was almost like the peak. That year in the world championships, they won a record number of medals. I think they won 36 medals that year, which is astounding. I mean, in the women's 10,000 meters, I remember they came first, second, third and fourth. They won every major, every major marathon was won by Kenyan in a course record that year.
So yeah, there was a real, although the times have got faster, you know, there's, there's debate about that could be other things, but in terms of how they were training, I think it was really at a kind of crescendo. There was, there were more and more opportunities coming on the roads and the numbers were, I think the numbers, coronavirus has had a big impact because there's a, you know, there's 80% of the runners in Kenya are living on the hope of earning money, they're not actually earning anything. And
then when all the races stopped and prize money started getting a bit thinner on the ground, as far as I'm aware, that's had an impact and it's kind of even harder now than it was then. So yeah, it was all kind of building to this crescendo around 2011, you know, just like the fervour and the numbers. And so we, the NN team, they had probably like 15 runners, but then they have a kind of second van, which is all the people who aren't quite in the team who live.
nearby and they just all get in that van. So there were like 40, 40 runners in that group. It was yeah, pretty, pretty insane. And all of them, you know, I reckon they could all run, you know, well, there's a, there's a, I've done a, I did a brilliant interview with a guy called Abdi Nage and a Dutch Somali runner who joined the NN team. And he said he was the slowest runner in the team. And they actually used to joke about him, like how slow he was. And then in the Tokyo Olympics, he came second in the marathon. So
know, this is the standard, like even the slowest guy can come second in the Olympics. You should have spent 12 months there. Well, I do end the book because that Ugandan guy, the young Ugandan guy, I mean, he obviously he's challenging, he's brought up an altitude, you know, he's got lots of the Kenyan traits, but he had been there for like five years or something living in Kenya and then he won the Olympics. So yeah, I was like, yeah, six months wasn't long enough.
Tyson Popplestone (34:28.062)
It's really interesting to hear you talk about those 40K long runs with nothing but water. And this is something that I often wonder, like as amazing as the technology, whether that be shoes or the sports drink or the access to data that we have now, a lot of the time, it seems that the best approach for many athletes is some form of simplicity. And I often think about how much we sacrifice in terms of stress and overwhelming ourselves with.
relatively superficial things, how much that stress actually correlates to a poorer running performance. And I say all that to say that yesterday I was listening to an Ironman, former Ironman World Champ, Craig Alexander, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him, Australian Ironman, absolute gun. And he was saying that a big part of his off season training was focused on not actually taking on carbohydrates when he went out for a long bike ride, when he went out for a long run.
with the full intention of actually training his body to be able to actually use the fat stores for a latter part of the race, where you might not have the carbs, you might not have the fuel that you really need, but to be able to equip yourself to be able to tap into that if you need it. And I often wonder how much in the name of, following the science and giving ourselves the best opportunity to stay hydrated, take on electrolytes, use the best sports drinks, we're actually in a weird way.
kind of costing ourselves the ability to tap into whether it be physical discomfort or actual physical transformation through taking your body to a place that it hasn't been. And I don't know what the balance is because I know Ali Kipchoge uses Morton when he's out there on marathon race day. There's no doubt that there's actual performance benefits when it comes to using these things. But I wonder with a schedule or some structure around, you know, consciously abstaining or staying away from that, whether they're
would be any physical benefits? I'm not sure if you've thought much about that, but I was just interested to hear your perspective. Yeah. I mean, I know it's a, I know it's a tricky one because I, and like you say, they do use them in the race and they definitely help in the race, whether there's a benefit to not using them in training and, and I just, you know, I wonder now, particularly that group now, they, you know, it wasn't the NN team. It was just called global sports back then. And I know, I know they've changed some of the, some of the food they eat.
Tyson Popplestone (36:55.598)
Uh, yeah, it's, it's difficult to say with the, with the nutrition, because I know there are, there are athletes who almost do the opposite where in the training, they're taking on more carbs because that allows the body to kind of trains the body to absorb carbs in training. So, uh, there's a British ultra runner, Tom Evans, who just basically in his training, he's, he's actually overloading his carb intake to build up his body's ability to take on carbs in the race. So.
So I'm not really an expert on that. I know it's kind of tricky, but the technology one's interesting because I know these athletes, you know, they kind of purport to like play the game with the technology, but I had this Dutch Somali guy, Abdinage, I asked him, because he was training with Kipchoge for about two or three years before he got his silver medal in the Olympics. And I asked him what was the best advice Elie Kipchoge ever gave him. I said, he must have talked to you in all these years you were there.
And he said, yeah, he told me to stop looking at my watch. He said, when you're running, he said, why do you look at your watch all the time? And the guy's like, well, I need to know what pace. He said, why, why do you need to know? He said, what, if you're going too fast, you're going to slow down? He said, no, or you're going to, you're going to slow down, speed up. Well, you can tell if you're going too slow. You need to keep up, just keep up. He's like, and I, cause I know.
I know when I was there, they weren't looking at their watches at all. And sometimes, you know, you see them in interviews saying, Oh yeah, the watch is really important, but I think it's because they're sponsored by the watch company, in my opinion. Uh, there's another funny story where when they were doing the breaking to, uh, first, the first attempt to break the two hour marathon, they gave, they gave them all these like watches, the Nike team, so that it could analyze their training and, uh, they noticed the guided essay in Eritrea was like,
running like 250 miles a week. So like 300 kilometers a week or something. This is crazy, he's in so much training. And I was telling this to my Kenyan friends and they just started laughing. They say, he's not running that far. We know what he's doing. His friends are looking at his watch going, that looks like a nice watch, can I have a go? And he's going, yeah, have a go. And they're all borrowing the watch going, oh, I wanna have a go. And they're all doing like four or five runs a day. And he was like, God, and then Nike guys going, Tadesse.
Tyson Popplestone (39:05.306)
But to hand it to the Nike guys, they then went and spent some time with Kipchoge. And the whole idea of that project was to marry the kind of science of Nike, the best Nike sports scientists, marry that kind of technological advancements with the raw kind of talent of the Kenyans and Kipchoge. And to be fair to the Nike sports scientists and the team, when they went to Kenya to...
study, Kipchoge training. And their conclusion was we don't need to change anything. This guy knows exactly what he's doing. His coach Patrick Sang has got him on an amazing program. They've got an understanding. We just feel anything we try and say to them to change in their training is just too risky. It just looks like it looks so optimal. They did slightly fix a tweak a few things with the diet. Like they used to eat white sliced bread in the morning for breakfast and then they got them to make their own kind of hot dogs.
wholesome bread.
Tyson Popplestone (40:33.614)
Training has been not like they've sat down and analyzed it in a laboratory, but they've kind of thought about it and honed this over many, over many years, many athletes, many groups, and the top coaches have kind of spent a lot of time. Yeah. Kind of fine tuning this system that seems to work. And so there's, there's a lot more you can learn. It's not, it's not just pure raw talent. I think that's a slightly, uh, yeah, uh, unfair way.
just to think, oh yeah, it's just genetics or it's just, you know, just altitude or they're just the poverty because those things are a slight factor, but those things exist in many other parts of the world as well. And yeah, the Kenyans really, they know that. I say that to the Japanese guys, like you should study these guys. These are like professors of running in your team because in the Japanese team, the Kenyans would go off and do their own training. And I'd say to the coach, why don't you like...
take a leaf out of their book. So, I know they're the Kenyans, they do their own thing. I was like, yeah, but how fast they run? Maybe you should like, have a look. It is interesting. You touch on that in the book. Before I get to the psychology of what it means to be a Kenyan for both Kenyans and for their competitors, before I stray too far from the point you mentioned Nike and the goodness that they did with a couple of recommendations, but also leaving what wasn't broke. One of the points that I...
thoroughly enjoyed. I really love this. I work with a lot of athletes here on technique analysis, actually just helping athletes become more efficient with movement. And this was something that I was lucky enough to be exposed to relatively young through a coach here in Australia called Joe Carmody. He was the first coach I ever met who paid any attention to rhythm and technique and tension. And it became like a real fascination of mine over the last 20 or probably 25 years now almost. But in the running scene, as I'm sure you're aware,
It's almost a surprise when you hear that an athlete has a focus on technique. It seems to be the other, the other things. It seems to be the nutrition and the training and the shoes and, you know, the coach and the recovery and all really important things, but the idea of the actual foundational movement that you're doing when you take place in running is for whatever reason, it's completely forgotten, but it stripped that point back towards very start point. I loved your take in your observation on the barefoot running in Kenya and
Tyson Popplestone (42:56.142)
2011, it was around the time when the barefoot running shoes really did seem to storm into the market. And I remember a lot of people wearing it. And you actually mentioned it in your book, which I thought was so on point that the problem that so many of us have going from like a fully foamed, supported shoe back to the minimal shoe is that we try and transfer all of our running into that. And as a result, naturally, the impact's too much. We've got to work up to it.
But to hear about the respect that Kenyans coaches, athletes had for European runners for whatever reason, or Europeans in general, I think you mentioned in the book that number of the Kenyans refer to, you know, Europeans just being smarter, so we know what it is that we're doing, but nothing can be further from the truth when you look at running results. You were saying that there was a direct correlation with the number of races that you watched with the advancements in the shoe technology with the, the athletes that were running and the further back in the field.
that they were actually finishing. Whereas you looked at the ones at the front, they were barefoot. I mean, this is a whole nother podcast in itself. It's such a deep and awesome conversation. But I mean, maybe I could just hand that to you and you could speak to that because I'm not really sure which direction to take it. So feel free to take it where you'd like, but it was a part of the book that I love from a, you know, a foot structure to a performance, to a technique. It was just something that I think has been forgotten about too quickly.
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, like you say, it's a whole podcast. I mean, I think for a start, I can see why. I mean, there's this idea in most of us as well that you shouldn't mess with form, that that's that you could cause injuries. And there is some truth to that, you know, that Stephanie, basically, if you're running inefficiently, it's not because you want to run inefficiently, it's because your body needs to because something's not working in the body. And so, yeah, so having good form is not as simple as saying, Oh, you should
Look how the Kenyans run, you should run like that. You just can't do it. You might be able to do it for two minutes, but you can't maintain it. And trying to maintain it artificially is probably not gonna work at best, and at worst is gonna lead to injuries. Saying that form, I think form is one of the huge key factors in why the Kenyans are so good, and why anyone who's a really good runner is good. I mean, it doesn't have to be a Kenyan, but.
Tyson Popplestone (45:20.33)
You know, you get the occasional runner who's kind of powering through on pure strength and talent and aerobic ability. But you know, if you're running the speed, they're running marathons, you have to be able to run that pace, which for most of us is like we're straining every sinew to run a hundred meters at that pace. To be able to cruise at that pace, your body has to be, it's not a fitness thing. If you take a hundred meters and we have to go at that pace, we can't even do it for a hundred meters. Yeah, they're cruising at that pace.
That's not a fitness thing. It's not like they're super fit because nobody's running out of breath over a hundred meters or not, not many people. So it's pure purely biomechanics. They can run at that pace without it feeling like they're straining. And that is just your body's movement is efficient, but getting there is, is difficult, is problematic. It takes, it takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of, uh, Clever coaching someone who really knows what they're talking about. I think there's a lot of. You know, form coaches who.
You can just tell you, or you know, you need to drop your arms or, you know, all sorts of things, which maybe don't help. So that, so I can see why some people say it's better just to leave it. I think I personally, I think if you really need to work on form, but one way of doing it, and this is what the Kenyans do a lot of is, is like drills. And so rather than consciously trying to change your form, but trying to get that rhythm, that bounce to do a lot of kind of bouncy drills to get bounce back into your, into your body.
that kind of stuff. And they do a lot of that. The guy brother column, the Irish priest who's a, he's not a priest actually, the Irish patrician brother, who, who's the one of the key coaches out there. And he also coaches the juniors. He spends like they have, they can do half an hour of drills every day, just doing, you know, I mean, the simple ones we know like high knees, heel flicks, but they have a whole array of them.
And Ethiopians the same. I mean, there's these amazing videos on YouTube of all the Ethiopians doing these. I mean, they look like dancers. They're doing these amazing drills and they put a lot of time and effort into keeping that balance. They do, a lot of them, most of them have a natural advantage in the fact that they grew up running barefoot. And I did, so yeah, I had this, I'd read Born to Run which is the book that kind of brought...
Tyson Popplestone (47:39.99)
barefoot running into the mainstream consciousness. I read that, I thought, oh, this is incredible. You just take your shoes off and you're gonna run like a Kenyan. I thought this was amazing. My feet were a bit soft, so I wore these barefoot shoes. I thought this is gonna be great. And I did feel good to running them, but I did, yeah, it injured my Achilles. But the Kenyans, and then I went to Kenya expecting to see barefoot runners everywhere. And the truth is, when all these groups running by, you know, 200 Kenyans go by, not one of them will be barefoot.
And I was really confused. I was like, I thought they were all running barefoot. This is the story I kind of bought into. And I was totally like, here is me and my barefoot shoes and none of the Kenyans are barefoot. What's going on? And then I went to a schools race, the junior race and there they were all barefoot. Except, and this is where this happened, where there were, in each race, there were like 200 kids, school cross country. They all bomb off.
And there were like two or three kids in each race wearing shoes, obviously the slightly wealthier kids. And all without fail in every race, they were the last two or three in every race. And I remember pointing this out to the Kenyan like coach and that day just hanging around at this, just at this one school was like Mary Katani, who went on to break the world record in the marathon. It was Wilson Kip sang went on to hit a world record in the marathon, just hanging around a couple of them. I said, look, isn't it funny? All the kids in shoes are at the back.
And they were like, oh, no, that's nothing. Don't think about that. And I thought it was funny because the prize for the winner was a pair of running shoes. And I was like, that's a bit funny that you think. They're like, oh no, we all want shoes. Everybody wants shoes. That was the idea. And there's an interview with David Radice as well, which it's on the, there's a film about him breaking the 800 meter world record. And he's actually talking about running barefoot as a child and how amazing it is for your form and everything.
And then the interviewer who's Irish, Eamonn Cockland, the interviewer, he said, so in Ireland, we should get all the kids to run barefoot. And he was like, oh no, no. You misunderstood me. You don't want to do that. Because there was a disconnect between the fact that this was a huge advantage to them and the fact that this was all actually a sign to them of poverty. And so there's a lot of movement there towards getting everyone's shoes. But really, yeah, generally, if you've got kids and you want them to.
Tyson Popplestone (50:01.366)
be a bit more athletic, not necessarily for running, but generally in life, it is, it kind of makes sense. It's good if you can do it as much as possible. If your feet are touching the ground, you're going to have better contact with the ground. Your feet are going to be stronger. You're going to have more bounce off your feet. Your tendons are going to be stronger. Everything's going to work more efficiently. But the idea that as a 35 year old, I can just take my shoes off and return to that state, that's the problematic part.
Yeah, so now when I say, when people ask me about it, I'd say, yeah, I basically, unless you're really willing to like spend five years retraining your feet, re going, you know, going there, I just wouldn't bother because you're more likely to get injured than not. But for someone who really but form is key, yes, but how you get that form. It's tricky. I mean, there are there are loads of great things out there and there are loads of great people who are who are doing great things with it. But there will say some people who just kind of saying you should do this, you should do that and being prescriptive and
And yeah, I think the safest way for someone, if you haven't got like someone you really believe in is to just kind of work on the drills and work on getting a bit more bounce in your feet. Cause that's one thing you lose by spending your whole life in shoes, is that kind of rebound off the floor. And there've been studies on that, that Kenyans have much quicker bounce. And what's really fascinating is the, well until very recently at least, the sport that Kenyans have dominated more than.
The event they've dominated more than any other has been the steeple chase until the last Olympics from 1968 until the last Olympics. They won every steeple chase Olympic gold medal. And yet there were no steeple chase barriers in Kenya to train on. And I saw this brilliant interview with the world record holder Shahid Shaheen. That's his adopted name. He's a Kenyan guy.
I asked him, how often do you train over the barriers? Cause they were at the track in your 10 and they couldn't see any barriers. So how often do you train on the barriers? He said, I've never trained on barriers and he's a world record. And the reason is, cause they've just got that natural bounce. Bouncing over a barrier is no problem to them. They just, and I've been running with Kenyans and we come to a fence and they just say without even breaking stride, they just jump over it. And I'm like, Hey, I can't do that. How do I get up there? You got to find a gate. They're like, Oh.
Tyson Popplestone (52:24.539)
Oh, right. Okay. Uh, you got me in trouble because I've been pretty focused. We live in a little coastal town here. So we're lucky enough for you not to look too strange if you're walking around in bare feet. So, so my three year old has got souls of leather just because I like the idea of his feet. I personally just like the feeling of it when I'm out and about. If I can have an excuse not to wear shoes, I'll take it. I work from home now. So rarely do I have shoes on unless I'm out there going for a run because of the fact I'm 36 and I've never trained barefoot before.
But with my little guy, he loves it. Like I watched some of the things that he walks over now and I'm like, oh my gosh, even I'm grimacing a little bit. But my mom came to stay with us last weekend. We went for a walk down this, it was like a relatively, in the middle of summer, it was a hot day and we were walking along like a sand path next to the ocean. And no, I mean, I was barefoot. My little man was barefoot. And she said to me, she's like, Tos, this is just irresponsible. And I was like, mate, I actually, I was laughing because I was trying to explain the book to her.
And she has no interest in running. She has no interest in Kenyan foot structure. And so to try and sell this point to her like it had any validity she wasn't interested in. But yeah, I like that idea of just, you know, having his foot in contact with the earth for how it feels, but also for how it develops his feet. So it was really interesting to hear that. Just before I let you go, the last question I was gonna throw at you, and again, like all questions that I'm asking, could probably be an hour conversation, but.
Brother Colm and Patrick saying it, two coaches or two mentors, or a combination of both of those things that I'm really fascinated by. Bought a couple of standout features to you, particularly with regards to Brother Colm. He's a guy I don't know a lot about, but I've, I mean, I've heard a lot of stories and he sounds like an interesting character. I think I'd always imagine him as like a very polite, nice, just, you know.
coach athlete, but he sounds like he's a little bit of a straight shooter as well. A couple of the stories you say in the book, he sounds like he's not backwards in coming forward to some of his philosophies and ideas around how he structures things. Yeah, yeah, he's I mean, he's brilliant. I mean, he was, I think he does slightly tire people coming and well, he talks about he talks about it, you know, people coming to find the secret, this idea that there's a secret and they want to know the Kenyan secret.
Tyson Popplestone (54:42.258)
And he's like, there is no secret, you know, we spend years, like he said, they do these, they spend, they do all these drills. They, they, they live these incredibly monastic lives. You know, they basically eat sleep run and they, they do that to a degree. You know, we have athletes in the West, you know, cause, cause I actually did an interview with Kipchoge and I said, how do we get better in the West? So they just need to build these training camps and, and the athletes need to go and live there. This is a guy who's like a multimillionaire by anyone's standards. He's still living in this tiny little training camp.
away from his family six and a half days of the week, living in a bunk room, cleaning out the loos, cleaning out the toilets, cooking food, simple food. I was like, no, no one in England is gonna live like that. No, like no one, even if you say you're gonna be a great athlete, they're still gonna wanna live a bit more of an interesting life. And actually that Dutch Somali guy, he in the end, he couldn't stand the cam off. Three years, he loved it, he got Olympic silver medal, but in the end he said,
going crazy living here. He said, if you've got a European mindset, you can't live this simple life. So there's a huge level of dedication, which we can't really replicate, we can't comprehend. So it's not just, yeah, so he kind of didn't like this idea that the kind of Western journalists or coaches or whatever come over looking for this one secret that they could then go home and copy. So this is our whole way of
the whole Kenyan way of being. But he did, he did have a real understanding. Yeah, he, a lot of his stuff was about mindset. So he would, he would think like what would distinguish a really great athlete like Radisha from lots of other athletes is just having the right mindset. A big, a big distinction between the Kenyans and the Japanese, for example, is that the Kenyan coaches don't go on all the training sessions with the athletes. They just, you know, like in the Japanese coaches, they get up at six o'clock in the morning.
go up there with the athletes, often drive behind them in a car, or at least see them off. And I'm like, why do you do that? He said, oh, they wouldn't go if we didn't do that. The Kenyan, Brother Khan's never even been abroad to one of Radisha's races. He doesn't need to be there because he totally trusts his athletes. Because he's picked these guys who've got the right understanding, the right mindset, that they're driven from within. And he's quite clear about that. He also has, there was a guy who joked-
Tyson Popplestone (57:09.098)
when he asked me and I met brother Colin, he was going, he was a guy from Singapore, actually, who was living out in the tent. He said, Oh, has he done his Yoda thing with you? And he's like, this is his way he gets kind of philosophical about it. But it is all about that connection with the ground. And he talks about having this relationship, the Kenyans have a relationship with the ground through being barefoot and understanding.
how to interact with the earth in a way that we don't understand it in the West, that we're always removed from the Earth. If we're indoors, we get in the car, we've got shoes on, we've got coats on, whereas they're just kind of living closer to the earth. And he gets quite philosophical about that. But, you know, he's talking from experience. This guy, he's lived there since 1976. He's trained probably more than half the Kenyan top athletes have been to his training camps as juniors.
Yeah, probably 80% of them. So yeah, they all love him. They all respect him. He's they call him the godfather of Kenyan running. And he really is. In fact, he's the whole reason why you attend is because he was in a tent. He started the first training camp. The whole town. It was just a crossroads with a school on it. And he was a teacher at the school. The whole town has built up basically around him. So yeah, he's, he's kind of crucial. He's a, he's a brilliant character. Yeah, you're right. He doesn't.
He doesn't mince his words, but at the same time he is lovely. He's very, when you get to know him, he's very friendly. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. No, awesome. Well, uh, for, for everyone interested, I'll make sure I link that and your other books in the description to this. I actually didn't know you had written a book on Japanese runners. And I'm so excited because I was genuinely disappointed when running with the Kenyans finished, so I'm, uh, I'm going to go and make sure I get myself a copy of that, um, it gets stuck into it, but thank you so much for making the time at.
Great to hear your stories firsthand from the man himself. I really appreciate it was a incredible book. It's honestly probably it'd be my top. I'm apart from like a classic, like the pre fontaine. I can't think of a book that I put in the same category of it. So I'm favor on listening. Make sure you grab it. But yeah, thanks again for stopping by. I appreciate it. That's all right. Thank you for having me. That was nice to chat. Thanks for listening to the relaxed running podcast.
Tyson Popplestone (59:26.482)
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