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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Hi, Carrie,
welcome to Honest Money Show.
Hey. Yeah.
And yeah, it's
gorgeous to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
It's lovely to be here.
Yeah,
just like I was saying to you
before we hit record.
Part of the reason
for inviting
you was entirely selfish.
Because I wanted to
make friends with you.
I mean, I'm
thrilled to be
friends with you.
This is cool.
I love connecting,
particularly with women
in the Bitcoin space.
It's always really
heartening.
Yeah. Yeah. Know.
And we can talk about that
a little bit later.
But I wanted to speak to you
about the company
that you've recently formed
which is Bitcoin
Treasury Solutions.
And I think this
is a really exciting, space
in Australia right now.
There's so much opportunity.
So I'm keen
to hear all about it.
What made you guys start it?
How's it going so far?
What might have started?
Well, it was Chris's idea.
So.
So, Chris space,
some of you know Christy,
and he approached me.
He'd already been in contact
with a couple
of other people,
so it's ended up
being a group of five of us,
in fact.
And, but
but Chris and I
are really driving it
at the moment,
and the idea is really
it feels like a timely idea.
It's a couple of different
things.
It's there's a lot of people
in this space
doing one on one consulting
and coaching and tutoring
and in various ways,
shapes on and forms
mostly
within the Bitcoin community,
people
who are already on board
with Bitcoin people
and then providing
services in,
say, tech or security
or privacy or something
along those lines,
and then teaching people
about Bitcoin as they go.
But there isn't really
any company out there
that specializes
in Bitcoin education
as being the product
unaffiliated with
any other Bitcoin product
or service.
We're not on selling you
anything up.
Selling you anything.
The education is the
service.
And so when Chris
got in
contact with me and we
had a coffee
to chat about it,
my background is 30 years
of corporate training.
So training and education
is what I do.
Training adults,
working
in corporate spaces.
And when he positioned it
as training,
particularly businesses
on why to add bitcoin
to their treasury
reserves and,
and teaching businesses
about what bitcoin is,
what the value
proposition is.
I jumped to I'm like,
I jumped on
that yesterday was hysterical
because Chris
kind of
where I had to go coffee.
And he explained the idea
to me and I just went, yes.
He said,
you don't have to answer
straight away.
He said,
take your time
to think about it.
And I probably sounded like
I probably should have made
my sound
a little less
available or something, but
I was like, I'm home for it.
Why didn't I think of this?
So where's it at
is that we've run
our first pilot workshop.
We had ten people in the room
and four of us traders,
and we took them through
in a way that I just
don't think
the Bitcoin community does
well, like
take on community is divine.
I adore, I adore
bitcoiners, but,
we tend to be really
passionate and excited
all over the place
and nobody goes through
the Bitcoin story.
I shouldn't say no,
that's not true.
You've got people
like Looking Glass Education
who have got
a really organized,
structured way of going
through,
the Bitcoin story.
But there's a
couple of things
about what we are doing
that I think is unique.
Number one, it's
face to face.
We're working
with groups of people.
We're a role
in small business
and a small to medium
business and guiding through
and through the journey.
We're also not starting
with the history of money,
which is we're
trying to logically,
Bitcoin is typically stopped
and I don't think that's
such a brilliant
starting point.
It's a little slow,
it can be a little dull.
And I feel like
it's a better angle
to come in from.
Let's talk about
mainstream investments.
Let's talk about things
like the hurdle rate
and the rate of return
with mainstream investments.
Let's talk about
the risks that,
spoken
and glossed over
by mainstream
financial advisors.
And then let's talk about
why they could
and then you can kind of
get into the history of money
and why Bitcoin exists
and how it can
overcome
inflation
as being the kind of the base
hurdle.
Right, if you like, for your,
for your seemingly
least risky,
your least risky investment,
what would you think
is the least
risky investment tenure
if you had to choose between.
Hang on, let me give you a,
let me give you an ABCd.
If you had to choose between
shares, property, gold
and cash slash
fixed interest term deposit.
So I'm just sticking those
all in one basket.
What would you choose
as these three points.
Not in Bitcoin
is not in the cards.
Not available yet.
We're just talking.
About scope okay.
So I give
you give me the
give me them again
because I
was ready to say Bitcoin.
But that wasn't a choice.
So it was interesting cash
as one
not cash
term deposits.
Then we've got as a cash
slash term deposits slash
fixed interest. Yeah.
So that's a one category
shares
property gold.
Gold slash
commodities gold.
So gold is often
seen as very low
risk.
What would be the risks
involved in illegal
to as an investment.
What are the downsides.
The disadvantages of gold.
Well depends
how you purchase it
I guess as well,
whether you own the physical
gold yourself
or whether you own
paper gold.
So.
Right.
Absolutely.
So paper gold.
What's the risk?
Oh, just everything.
You just entered the gold.
Is there backing it?
Right. Yeah.
You don't know?
Yeah.
You don't know the verses.
You don't know
if it's been audited.
You don't like
the settlement?
Takes a long time.
It's it's cumbersome.
It's costly to
to transfer
in case you need to.
So. Yeah,
100% I went through this
because I had physical gold.
No, I had paper gold
with Teflon.
I wanted it
fabricated, turned into,
you know, I wanted it,
I wanted the real gold.
So then we did that
at enormous cost.
And then the costs
of just insurance.
And so on.
And, storage.
Absolutely wild.
They are crazy.
You're this all,
and so then
I wanted to transfer it
to Melbourne
from Perth again.
Crazy cost,
to get it across.
Said that I could
put some in storage
in a vault in Melbourne.
So it's just it's
there's a lot
of inconvenience
and a lot of cost involved.
Okay.
Which is your second
least risky?
We had gold property,
fixed interest
being cash.
Let's just say cash
in the bank,
which people don't
really think of
as an investment,
but it's somewhere
where you're
storing your money.
So those were the three
that were left property,
fixed interest, cash
or shares.
Well, I want to say
property
because it is an asset class.
It's very much
protected in Australia
like the S&P 500
is in America like properties
what everyone is
economically incentivized
to preserve.
But that being said,
I particularly
don't think it is.
So it's kind of like,
yeah,
I mean, I,
I does biased
because I
like outright ownership.
I don't like having
a leasehold on something.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And, and I'm
with you on that.
But most people, you're
absolutely right,
would perceive property
as being,
you know, low
risk.
But again,
I've got a personal story
on this
because I just sold
an investment unit recently
that I had for
23, 24 years.
I bought it
at 275,000.
And they used to say that
it doubles every ten years,
but I had it for two decades.
And if it had doubled
every ten years,
it would have been worth 550.
Is that right now?
After ten years?
And then it would have been
worth over $1 million in
the second decade, right.
And I ended up selling it for
$690,000 or something
like now.
I tried to sell it
three years earlier,
and there was a problem
because of,
the body cover.
It was on the title.
It was a nightmare.
It took 18 months
to unwind this thing,
doing battle
with the council, etc., etc..
I got a an offer on it
three years ago
when I first tried to sell it
before we discovered
this problem with the title,
I got an offer on it
for 700,000.
So in three years
it went down,
if you like, $10,000.
So this is what
they call now.
What are the other risks
involved in property?
You've you talked
about with gold,
the downside
of the transferability
and the costs.
And the third party.
You know
it's a party risks etc..
What are those similar
risks with property?
In Australia?
Well, it's not
easy to dispose
of like it takes time.
Settlement
also takes a lot of time.
You don't really
own it
like.
Some of what you don't.
That's right.
Yeah.
What do you think about that?
Because I think that's
what might be
interested in that.
Why do why do you say that?
So you essentially
you may own the house
that sits on the land,
but the land belongs
to the crown.
Crown?
So you're right to.
Know that that actually.
But I you. Know,
it's like,
technically you own it.
But, you know,
when you look at the,
the legal terms
and conditions
you don't really own,
not the way,
the same way you own Bitcoin.
So I'm probably not
the best person
for this question because,
don't think like
traditional investors think.
I think you're right.
But that's a risk
that most people
aren't aware of.
And you're
absolutely right about that.
And there's elements of it
that the government
could force a sale.
You know, local council,
if they're putting a
right through,
you know, they can
they can force the sale
and then there's
all the ongoing cost
to government
that almost feel like you're
renting the,
the, the house
from the local council
with all the ongoing
costs involved.
Okay.
It's
like a depreciation.
Depreciation.
Absolutely.
All of the above.
Okay, let's go to the third.
Hang on.
Where have we gone?
So we've gone
gold for heaven's
on rambunctious.
We've done,
we've done properly.
We've done gold.
What next?
Which is least risky.
Out of cash and shares.
I want
to say cash
I keep myself.
Why didn't
you say cash first?
Why did you think
that gold and property
were less risky than cash?
Well,
You see, with cash.
Because cash is.
I see it as an IOU.
It's not really.
It's like credit.
It's not really an asset.
Like, it's
not really something
tangible.
That's why it's.
That.
Because it's just like digits
on a screen
supposedly in the bank,
but it's not actually
physically there.
Well,
it's, it's it's debt.
So I don't even feel
like it's a real asset
if I've.
Got cash under the mattress.
Is that debt or is that
how do you think of that
playing that?
I think of it
as, as credit
that is going to lose
a lot of value very quickly.
Yes. Okay.
So, do you think most
people see it that way?
No,
no.
So I think a
lot of people consider
cash on term deposits
to be the safest.
Yeah. Right.
Out of the four
that I put to you
that the money in the bank is
safe, right.
And even if, you know,
they feel like government
will guarantee it
if the bank falls over,
but they're not taking
into account
inflation and the loss of.
Yeah, the loss
of purchasing power
that you just talked about.
So that's
an interesting thing.
And then we've left.
Cheers to last
because that seems
inherently riskier
because you're taking a bet
on individual companies.
Is that how
you would say that.
Yeah. Correct.
Yeah. Okay.
And then you've got
a whole bunch of other risks
potentially
with shares again,
that we don't
only talk about.
I'll think about.
And they would be things like
sorts of things.
Mining company
you've got you know,
things can go wrong
in the mines.
Things can happen
to individuals.
They can get flooded.
If you own a mine,
if a mining company owns
a mine over in South America,
they could be
political disruption.
They could be violence.
So that's on the share
side of life.
If you're in the tech,
if you're in the tech sector,
your tech could be made
obsolete.
You've got competition,
you've got really hot
competition,
and you've got
is you've got election.
And what's the government
going to do to your industry?
And are you
going to be hit with tariffs?
And what does that look like?
And you going to be supported
or are you
going to be undermined.
Is ESG going
to cut into your profits
like ESG requirements
and other regulations?
Obviously, various company
taxes are constantly coming
in, just as they are for
personal individual taxes.
But equally and potentially
more so for, for businesses.
So there's a bunch
of risks involved there
the don't normally get
talked about.
And invariably you get people
talking about exchange traded
funds, CDs
as being low risk.
Right.
But actually
they know, you know,
these risks,
there's risks
you're taking on that don't
get discussed.
Okay. So
so then you
could argue that
supposedly if
we had a free market,
the returns
on each of those investments
reflect, let's say,
the risk curve,
let's say most
people think
cash is the least risky
and they're getting
the lowest risk
and they're getting
the lowest rate of return
on that versus
the other investments.
So let's say you're getting
if you're like a 4.5%
on a term deposit
in Australia,
if you're in property,
you're
leaving aside
interest rates and sorry
living side.
Let me try that again.
Leaving aside inflation,
and loss of,
purchasing power,
I was getting
as a, as a,
as a rate
of return
on my investment property
that had no mortgage.
So there was not none of that
collapsed
after a period of time.
Council right,
blah, blah, maintenance
things going
wrong, etc., etc.
and my rate of
return was 2.71%.
Then you're not
going to make it up
with growth.
You know, as you know,
you can get that growth
certainly
in the last three years.
And you could argue
not really in the last ten.
Maybe
I just didn't invest well,
but that really wasn't
the issue for me
because I
lived there for seven years.
So it was, you know,
I didn't really glance
at some investment property,
so maybe I wasn't
smart enough
about that investment.
But I don't think
property is doing
the returns
that it used to do.
And the other risk
that people don't
talk about with property
is that it goes up for
about 14 years on average,
and then it crashes
for about four.
So there's an 18.6
year property cycle
that everyone has forgotten
by the time
the next 18
years comes around.
And if one goes, it's
going up forever,
Laura.
And it just
doesn't. Right.
That's not true.
So, so
but but you know,
that's the propaganda that
the property industry
likes to,
to propagate.
So, so there's,
so that's property.
So now
we're talking about returns.
Leaving aside,
just taking into account
the risk factors,
leaving aside
loss of purchasing power
via inflation.
So then you've got
the rate of return on gold.
Now that went down
or state level
over a 20 year period
through the 1990s.
And 2000.
So maybe it was the 1980s,
in the 1990s,
like I remember
when it started
going up again,
I think it didn't
start really going up again
till about 2015.
So it's really only been
in the last ten years
that we've started to see
that upward trajectory.
And even
there has been sideways
for huge amounts of time.
So gold isn't
guaranteed to go up
and there's no income.
And there's
all those other issues
that you talked
about earlier with,
you know,
simply the physical weight
and the costs of storing
and insurance and holding
and the inconvenience
and the
impracticality, etc., etc..
So
and what have we got left?
And then there is
potentially a higher
rate of return.
You could argue 10%
on average
over the last 10 to 20 years.
Maybe, maybe it's
higher than that.
You know, I don't know
ten, 13, 15% per year.
But then we've got
to take into account
which you've already alluded
to, inflation
and how that erodes
the return.
So
what do you know
what the stated inflation
rate is in Australia?
The official CPI.
Is around 2.5.
Yep.
So 0.4 I think was
you know, according over
the last year,
as stated
in the last quarter.
So you know, it's spot on.
So we've got
maybe a 10% return
on our shares, minus
the 2.4%.
So we've got 7.6%, let's say.
All right.
But you and I know
that 2.4%
is not the real rate
of inflation.
Why do they
deliberately
understate
the rate of inflation?
Why would the government
have a vested interest
in having a lower,
in stating
a lower inflation rate?
The the reality
that we all know
because we buy our groceries
every week, right.
And pay our insurances
once a year, end
our coverage
of inflation and,
you know, like all the stuff,
the petrol every week.
So we know that
that's wrong.
Why are they deliberately
understating it?
I'd like to know
the history of this, but
I know that in New Zealand,
in, 1989,
this new Zealand central bank
has set a 2% target.
And slowly,
after a lot of other
central banks
around the world adopted
this 2% standard.
And now they're all
aiming for 2%.
So maybe it is
to try and match
that as close as possible.
While yeah,
I can't really
speak to intent,
but it is,
I think, designed in a way
to match that 2% target.
So they're not stating it
what it actually is.
Because that would
obviously create
a lot of
mistrust in the system.
I'm 100% okay,
so I didn't know
it was New Zealand
that started that.
So that's really interesting
factually.
I need to
delve into that now.
So, there's
this element of
wanting to look like,
very close
to target.
It also
gives a certain confidence
in the economy
that, oh, inflation
is only 2.4%.
That's very manageable.
And then that gives people
confidence to borrow
when it vest.
You know, and feel like
they can,
they're getting a return
on, on that
a real rate of return
on their borrowings.
So there's all of that.
Then there's the element
of all the government,
which is about 50%
of the Australian
working population,
all the government employees,
I think it's about 40%.
And all of the welfare
is indexed to inflation.
Right.
So if inflation is stated
at the real rate
that they've got to pay
all the government employees,
all the teachers and all the,
nurses
and all the bureaucrats
and public servants and
all the
and everyone who's on welfare
and all the NDIS recipients
and all of that stuff.
All of those people
end into this
staff and caseworkers
and so forth.
All have to be paid
a higher rate year on year
if the inflation rate
is higher. Right?
I hadn't thought about that,
but it makes so much sense
now that that's
another key driver
as to why they keeping it up
at the rate that it is.
Oh well, the stated rate
that it is, they're
not keeping anything.
Absolutely.
So so it's a real factor.
So know
you and I know like
and I even I know that
and how they fiddled
the numbers here
with the CPI.
So for instance
with housing
I think they include
they include new homes
but not established dwellings
as much of the CPI figure
basket of goods.
I don't think they include
interest rate increases
as part of the CPI.
So if interest rates go up
and your mortgage goes up,
that doesn't get included.
As part of the CPI,
goods,
they don't account for things
like shrinkage.
So a packet of two terms
that used to have, what,
12 Tim
Tams inside the packet.
Same price,
but only does
10 or 8 biscuits
these days.
It doesn't account
for substitution.
So people go
from steaks to meats
because they can't
afford the steak anymore.
So that's not accounted
for in the,
in the inflation figures.
So there's all clever
ways of,
you stating
is that what I would.
Yeah.
The real rate of inflation.
And so it's very,
very difficult
to keep track of what real
the real inflation rate is.
But estimates have it out
closer to 7 or 8%.
Now if your return
the sharemarket
which comes
with all those risks
is 10%
and inflation
is 7 or 8%,
your real rate of return
is 2 or 3%.
Your real rate of return
on cash
and property
and gold,
maybe not gold at the moment
because gold's on a bit of a
or it has been for
someone says like that now,
is negative
the literally the you
if you're holding your money
in any of those
three asset shares
and maybe outstripping
the other three
gold, you could
argue, has done extremely
well over the last
couple of years.
But,
but you're going backwards.
You're purchasing power,
you're taking on all
that risk.
You're being pushed higher
and higher up the risk curve
in the name of,
in the name of just breaking
even higher inflation,
you've got to take bigger
and bigger risks.
It used to be
that you could
just put your money
in a term deposit
or in a ten year bond or in
a, you know,
two year bond or whatever.
And you would,
you know,
you'd be able to save,
not so
and you'd be able
to cover costs
and not sell anymore.
Now we've all got to go
into a minimum
60, 40 portfolio,
which,
you know, we could obviously
argue was mandated,
but 60%
shares and 40%, 40%,
fixed interest, right.
And but people have
gone into a higher growth
fund that
they keep going for,
need to make more than that.
That's
not going to cover my costs.
Therefore I'm
I taking retirees now.
Therefore
I've got to go into 85%
priced shares,
some 15%.
Yeah.
No fixed interest.
So
which speaks to the comment
we were saying before
that fixed interest
is considered low risk.
Right.
Except that it's it's
not because you're
going backwards.
I don't know where
all of this started.
I can't remember
what was said.
But I think my point
was that you
you were asking about
the business, and,
and so I feel like,
when it comes
to educating people
about Bitcoin,
what we love to do
in the bitcoin space is
talk about the
history of money,
talk about the broken
money system
and the printing of money
that causes the inflation.
And we talk about
how bullish we are on Bitcoin
and all the amazing models
that say
it's going to $1 million
a coin,
it's going to $10 million
a coin.
No, it's going to that
$8 million. Yeah.
So we love to do all of that
and then break down
why we're we're doing it
that way.
And and then we've got
all the techies
like all the, the coders
and the software
developers and everyone
in the Bitcoin space.
They love to talk about the
tech side.
And it's on Drinkability
and it's on sensor
ability and, and the,
the pseudonymous
nature of it.
So it's not entirely private,
but it's somewhat private.
And and yet I
don't know that
we all talk
in terms of,
I guess,
the context
of mainstream investments
that mainstream people,
relate to.
And so the point of
the business is to be able
to run
one day workshops
that take people
through,
a story of logic.
And it's very little
in the way of presenting
or just talking or lecturing.
It's really interactive.
We're playing games
to see how money
printing works
and how it affects
the prices of things.
And we're doing
you know,
we're doing breakout groups
and think for yourself
and work out for numbers
and, and,
is it like this?
Some of the questions
I asked you,
we might ask if the group
and then you get
a whole lot of interplay
from ten different people
in the room,
trying to get their ideas
and their personal
kind of take on it,
and it becomes
a really lively journey,
but you're taking them on
a really logical journey
from the problem
with mainstream
investment
through to
why was
Bitcoin invented?
Bearing in
mind Satoshi knew
precisely what he was doing
and why he was doing it
in light of the broken
monetary system.
As you and I understand it.
Yeah.
And then setting them
into, well,
implementation.
And that doesn't mean
we're not even
taking them through.
How do you buy
and how do you store.
We are simply going through
what does that look like
as a percentage
of your portfolio.
So if you took your
traditional 6040 portfolio
and made it 59
share, 59% shares
and 39%
fixed interest
and then allocated
2% to Bitcoin,
and then if you're
making 10% on your shares
and 5% on your fixed interest
and say, 60%
on your,
on your bitcoin,
then what does your portfolio
look like?
What's the return
if you allocate 2% to
bitcoin, what's your return.
If you allocate 10%
to Bitcoin
and then
and then we
you know
and then
part of that discussion
needs to be
about the adoption
curve.
Let me do
just a fun exercise
where I show them
four different charts
and I go
what does the
typical adoption
curve look like.
And I've got one that's like
a series of steps.
I've got one
that's
just kind of
all over the place.
I've got one that's
I can't remember something
else.
Fairly
sort of standard, I think.
Implied.
And then like straight line
and then I've got the
S-curve right,
and I go, which one
do you think
typically, like when you're
taking on a new technology
again, ABCd
like I was just doing my git
which one?
And you know,
S-curve
came up third.
People thought the steps.
They thought, yeah,
people want a good
why would you not that
why would it be something
that you would think about.
Yeah.
So so
then you got to
talk about adoption
and then you go
oh hang on a moment.
So so let's talk
about who's adopting here.
If it's high
net worth individuals
who probably know more
about investment
than anyone
in this room, including,
you know, think
setting us the,
the trainers on us Bitcoin us
so high net worth individuals
like Ray Dalio
like standard Camilla.
These guys
like the biggest hedge
fund managers in the world.
Why are they
allocating bitcoin.
Yeah.
And they're at
the pointy end.
We're still at the bottom
end of the curve.
And so you've got these
hedge fund managers.
You've got these asset
managers like Blackrock.
You've got
you've got
entire nation states.
You've got
Bitcoin treasury businesses.
So MicroStrategy
and better plant out and
and so forth.
And now we've got like
AI technologies
here in Australia.
So
what is it that they know
that you don't.
Why are they allocating.
And they feel like
it's low risk enough
to allocate
a small proportion
of their total portfolio
to Bitcoin.
And, and then you kind of go
and that's still really early
in the S-curve.
And we've still got
this to go.
And even though
it looks volatile
yeah.
If you're holding
for the long term,
as you and I know.
There's
that volatile.
The first of all
the volatility reduces
over time.
I mean, it's far
more volatile
than than Amazon
was in its early days
in its first
ten years of existence.
Nobody's saying I have
such a problem with that.
And everybody looks back
retrospectively and goes, oh,
I wish I'd told
my younger self to buy Apple.
Right?
So that's like
an ongoing joke
in the world.
And yet
the people aren't
quite there with Bitcoin.
And it's
interesting that
there's still all this
FUD around Bitcoin
in a way that there wasn't
the Amazon
or there,
that Amazon was
at least something
people were familiar with
because it was a share.
And so at least it was within
a framework
that people understood.
It's a share
and it's volatile,
but at least it's a share.
And I understand
the fundamentals of shares.
And then I can look at
their balance sheet.
But I don't get what
this Bitcoin thing
actually is.
Right.
And I think that's part
of it is
well is it a currency.
I hear you can buy stuff
with a protagonist
buying stuff with it.
I don't see Bitcoin prices
on my
goods and services at Kohl's.
I they don't really
necessarily understand
it being a ledger.
They don't really get
what that block chain is
as a, you know,
a ledger of transactions.
And so,
you know, the
medium of exchange
and they don't
really get the store
value proposition
because they don't get the
broken money
and the inflation
and the ever increasing
inflation and,
governments,
forced
particularly the US because
of the traffic driven to lie
about which we can get into
a force
to print money and create
debt, etc., etc..
So I feel like
you've got to take them
through the journey
of all of that before
you even get to
what is it?
Why is it a store of value?
How does it work
as a unit of account?
How does it work
as a medium of exchange?
And then
you can get into the adoption
of that and in particularly
in developing countries,
etc., etc..
You know.
That was
all in answer
to your question about why
and how it has come to this.
Start.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I love it, I love it.
I'm really curious to know,
because I think
the idea of an interactive
workshop is great,
and I can totally see
how that would appeal
to, to businesses.
But I'm really curious
to know, in your experience,
what is the outcome of
those workshops, like
where people start to
where they end up
at the end of the day?
Like what, what,
what's kind of like been
some of the common,
outcomes that.
What was
still very early days,
but feedback
has been fantastic.
And the outcomes.
So we've got a signal group
for participants.
First of all,
they wrote their feedback
and the feedback
was like,
things like,
oh my God,
I hadn't understood that.
That makes a lot
more sense to me now.
That's
giving me
a lot more confidence.
And then there was
some suggestions around.
I'm still getting questions
about so-and-so
that I don't want
to have to answer, like now
in my real world.
And so in the signal group,
we're giving people answers
for those things.
We got feedback
the other day
that one of the guys
has just gone out
and bought a little
bit more Bitcoin.
So he'd already bought some.
I think he's in early
two years.
He hadn't bought Bitcoin.
Bitcoin.
He had bought a bitcoin ETF.
So
I think there's a
lot of moments.
Like we went through
the process of money printing
and explained
how the government stood
up, you know,
and explained the,
the kind of the issuance
of treasuries and the,
you know, and then the,
the, money
printing
Fed Reserve
to buy those treasuries,
to then distribute
those treasuries, etc., etc..
But then we also did
a piece about,
banks,
in effect, printing money
by creating a
mortgage out of thin air.
You,
paying that.
So, so they've created it
out of nothing,
and then you go out and work
your guts out
to pay back
that mortgage,
and that real money
worked for money,
proof of work
that you did
to pay off that mortgage
becomes the real money
that you know, banks
then receive for doing
absolutely nothing
other than that,
like creating,
digital money
out of thin air.
And that was a real
shock moment.
So the people in the room,
like when we said,
there's no money
there, that's not money
that's being laid out
that somebody
else has deposited
that's coming out to you.
They are literally
that is just a
digital printout.
And there were
literal gasps
and that
faked
people turn up.
It's it's amazing
because this
information is out there
for anyone to verify.
But it's it's
just baffles me to know.
And this isn't
one of those things that are
taught everywhere in schools.
Like,
this is how a system works.
It impacts our
everyday lives.
It impacts
our decision making.
It impacts us in more
ways than we can tell.
And yet most people wouldn't
would know
if you stopped
someone on the street,
ask them how it works.
They'd be like,
okay.
So and if they did, no.
Imagine how
it would undermine the trust
in the traditional
banking system
in governments,
in the Federal Reserve,
in America, the
the reserve Bank
in Australia.
It would
undermine the whole system
if people actually knew
what was going on
and the degree
to which it is
responsible
for the,
for the rich, poor
divide, the increasing
wealth gap, how that,
benefits people at the top.
You know, the,
the can tell you in effect
or cancel in effect.
Would you like
to pronounce that?
And, you know,
we get into that in the,
the training as well.
And it's such a luxury
as a bitcoin,
to be able to go
because you know,
what it's
like when you go to a party
and you bring up Bitcoin
first module,
the pariah of the room.
Secondly
they start hitting you.
So there's a bloke at the
the gym I go to and we
we cross
over at Taichi
every everybody.
And he was a bright
boy and well
boy he's, he's older than me
and that takes some doing.
But he,
says to me,
he goes, what are you up to?
11.
Oh my damage
yesterday I go,
I went deep down a rabbit
hole of the technology
side of just the,
the coding, the
that kind of
coding of bitcoin. A
and I got on
and I was chatting with you
when, if I was young,
I would spend my whole time
trying to
write that Bitcoin thing.
And one day it'll be broken.
Right.
And so I, I,
I don't know and yet
I don't know,
I still don't have a good
I didn't
have a good answer
at the time.
Yeah.
And that's what happens
when you're at a party.
They come up with something
like this.
Some traditional things like
how much energy users
I've got
thought out
so to that,
that I'm fine
tuned over time
about the use
of stranded energy,
about how that energy is
used.
That's the
security of the system.
That's
what makes it unbreakable,
that's what is, etc., etc..
So I, you know, like,
I can I can do that answer.
But it's so,
reactive
when you're at a party,
you don't get to sort of
hold court
and take them on the journey
and start them
at the beginning.
And so
the whole thing is different.
The people who are coming to
the workshops
are genuinely interested.
So you've got,
in effect,
a volunteer group
who want to know.
So you've
you've got
qualified leads.
You're
not they're dealing with some
they might be cynical
or skeptical,
at least.
But they at least
want to find out
they're open minded.
Yeah.
And so
they actually want to know
the answers.
They don't want to just
attach their.
Yeah, and I'm
getting really
good at this carry like
I I'm getting really good
at differentiating
who is asking questions
out of genuine curiosity
and who is asking questions
because they want
to spar with you,
or they want to place
the burden of proof
for new to explain to them
why this is a thing.
And you're like,
there's no incentive for me
to do that.
I will help you
if you want to know,
but if you are just
wanting to like, sort
of try to embarrass me
or shame me or enter
into some
sort of a disagreement,
then I don't have time
for that.
You know what?
You're absolutely right.
I will often
just ask the question
outright.
I go,
you genuinely interested?
Do you actually want to know?
Because I'm really
happy to explain it to you,
but it's going
to take a little bit.
You come to an interview
to pitch on Bitcoin.
Let's say
you can't do an elevator
pitch on Bitcoin,
like, people
just want you to explain it
to them in an instant.
But yeah, the
a lot of untangling
that needs to happen.
And everyone's
stuck in a different spot.
And sometimes people
will ask a question
that to me might be obvious
and that will throw me off
more than anything.
Like I remember one time
I would ask this, like,
understand how Bitcoin is
in a medium of exchange.
I can understand how it would
be a unit of account,
but how is it
a store of value
and I thought like
that's the most obvious
one where we are
in adoption at the moment.
So that just kind of threw
me off.
Just like, what do you mean?
Right.
Absolutely.
I know, and then
how do you answer
that question, as you said,
as an elevator pitch
without going into
the whole broken
money system,
without going into
the history of money,
without saying
that fundamentally our cash
is as valuable
as shells right now,
because you can basically
go down to the beach
and print it up.
You know, just pick up more,
at least
if you're the government.
So it's a, I
yeah, I don't I get it
that the basic questions
can be the,
the hardest ones
that trip you up in a way.
Because, you know,
where do I even start
with that?
Because it's
such a big answer.
And you know how much time
do I have
to really go there?
Yeah, absolutely.
I had another thought
just brewing in my mind.
But I've lost it.
I've lost it. I.
Yeah, that's all right.
I,
I'm I'm very curious.
I would love to actually,
come to one of
these workshops one day,
because I also wonder
if this would be,
like a good model to copy
and have, like, in
community halls.
I'm always thinking of ways
that I can engage
with, like, more people,
you know, like PetSmart
and I'm living in Byron and,
a lot of people
here are very open minded
and they feel that there's
a cost of living crisis,
but they can't really point
the finger to the root cause.
And I know
they would be very curious
to learn about it.
So I'm always thinking of
ways like,
how can I introduce
these,
can we get the conversation
started?
So a community
event is a great idea.
And, given
there's so
many lefties in Byron,
you could really
take that kind of.
How does Bitcoin
help the environment
approach?
You know,
how does it support,
human rights
across the globe
across the globe.
So you take the
progressive case
for for Bitcoin as it were.
Use that as the pain point.
Like one of the things
that we're doing is we're
we're
targeting accountants.
And really
the focus there is,
you're
being asked questions,
so what's their pain point?
What do they care about?
You're being asked questions.
How do you want to
answer those
questions confidently
about Bitcoin.
So meeting people
where they're at and talking
about the things
that are most
important to them,
I think
becomes a really important
part of that.
I just
I just think
there are so many great
communicators in Bitcoin.
But I think communication
is different from,
from
clear explanation
in language
that people
get in their own way,
which is different
from training.
Right.
So if I
was to so I've
trained in presentation
skills and business writing
skills and influencing skills
and so forth for many,
many years.
If I want to teach you
how to answer
sort of difficult question,
hey, that's
right on the spot.
Let's say
somebody says to you, well,
how does Bitcoin work
as a store value?
Right.
And so the way I would teach
how to answer a question
if you're thrown on
the spot is one
technique is to break
the answer down
into two different parts
right.
And so
you might break it down into
it's a really good question
that you've just asked
there about store value.
Probably there's
two parts to that answer.
There's the problem
with fiat
and how Bitcoin solves
for that.
Right.
So I'm giving you
an example now.
So this is the difference now
between an explanation
and example.
And a
I'll give you at a
moment an exercise.
And I'll do a training in it
okay I'm going to
train you in
how to answer a question
in two parts.
So the
theoretical explanation is
and this is the difference
with training.
This is what
we don't really do
in Bitcoin.
What we do is explanations.
And sometimes
we give examples.
But we don't often
train per say.
We as some people train
in technology.
How to use arrow wallet.
I just attended a fabulous
little workshop
down here
in Melbourne
for the Women of Victoria,
which was gorgeous.
About Sparrow Pilot.
And sometimes you'll
get that on a push.
Someone will do
a breakout group
where you do a workshop
and you, you know,
you come up with your own
seed phrase, etc., etc.
so you might
get things like that.
But so if I get
the explanation,
if I was to,
explain how to answer a
question in two parts,
I would simply say
break it down into two parts,
and with
each of those sections,
give a small summary
at the end of each section,
and then tie the whole thing
in together
with an answer at the end.
If I was to give an example,
I'd give the example
I started giving you now,
which is
well,
there's two parts
to that answer.
There's the problem
and there's the solution.
In terms of the problem,
you can argue
that the current monetary
system is broken.
We are tied
into massive debt.
The government papers
over that debt
by printing money.
That money in the system,
creates inflation
so it serves their purpose to
pay off
their debt
was creating inflation.
And the reason it creates
that creates inflation is
because when there's
a lot of something,
it becomes less valuable.
So that's not really
it's not inflation
that we're saying
as loss of purchasing power
that we're seeing.
It's just described
in a different way.
So it's the lost of of value.
So the problem is
here's my summary point.
So the problem
is that,
the current
monetary system
relies on money
printing
and the creation
of inflation to,
to sustain itself.
Let's move on to
the solution.
Bitcoin is a
unique asset class.
It is.
There is
no central government
like a government or
like a corporation
who can change.
What is
an underlying protocol
that was put in place in 2008
with white paper in line
with the 2009
for the first block
Genesis block.
And the solution
is fundamentally that it's,
I have heard, money
that is unprintable,
that is unbreakable,
that keeps a perfect record
and that can't be changed
and that can't
be manipulated.
And that's why
it has value
as a store of value
is because it's,
scarce.
It is limited, it is finite,
it is kept.
And if you want
to discuss the unbreak
ability of that protocol,
I'm happy
to deep dive into that
with you.
But in short,
the answer to your problem
is, oh, the answer
the solution.
The summary
of the solution part
is that it's
unbreakable,
unanswerable,
unhackable,
and limited,
yet scarce.
Yeah.
So so that
would be my answer
in two parts.
Right?
So now if I'm
going to train you
in how to answer
a question into parts.
So now
I've given you an example.
Yeah.
If it
actually, no,
I'll do a demonstration.
We'll go from an example
to a demonstration
to then the training.
Okay.
This is just fun.
So the demonstration
goes like this.
Me a question, any question.
And I'll answer it
in two parts
and give you the summary.
Any question.
Any question.
Try a question, any question.
It doesn't have to
even be Bitcoin related.
But you can if you like.
Oh of course it has to be
Bitcoin related carry.
Let's
maybe do like some
of the common FUD.
So
what might be
is Bitcoin a bubble.
Plastic kind of bubble.
Excellent question.
I'm place your asset.
And yet
I think there's two parts
to that answer.
There's the issue of what
a traditional bubble
has looked like.
And there's the issue
of value.
So if we talk about
traditional bubbles like
tulip mania,
it was a single pink.
And then a blow off top,
and then it
collapsed,
never to be seen again.
So traditionally
when there have been bubbles
and you could argue this
even with the tech sector
to some degree
should kind of blow off top.
That led to the collapse
of that sector
for a period of time.
So what we've
seen with Bitcoin,
however, is already
four peaks and each one
just keeps getting higher.
And higher, albeit
there's the volatility
of the substantial drawdowns.
But even those drawdowns
are becoming less over time.
So fundamentally my point
about the
traditional blow off
or the traditional
kind of bubble
is that,
Bitcoin doesn't
follow the pattern
of a traditional bubble.
The second issue
I was going to talk about
is can you do tulips
have intrinsic value?
And this is an argument
that we get all the time.
All the time, you know,
you would get this pushback.
It doesn't do anything right.
It has no intrinsic value.
And so we've got to address
that issue.
Does it have value
beyond a tulip.
Does it have value
beyond
the trust and the faith
and the hopes
of the Bitcoin community?
And the answer to
that is in the store value
that we've just discussed,
something that represents
hard money,
something that can be,
self sovereign,
stored, you know,
held privately,
untouchable
by anybody else
whilst addressing
the scarcity issue.
So does it have value
beyond a tulip?
And the answer
to that has to be
it's,
money secured
by energy
in scarce supply.
Sunlight.
So, in short,
if I was to sum that all up,
and now
Bitcoin doesn't meet
the traditional requirements
of a bubble.
Okay, so
there's my demonstration.
So now we've had
an explanation of answering
a question in two parts.
We've had had an example
using
but
store value.
And now we've
done a demonstration
where you ask me a question
and I answer it so that.
So now
we're going to do a training.
We're going to do an exercise
which reaches the part
that often doesn't happen
in the Bitcoin community.
So now if I were to ask you
a question,
I'm going to ask you
to answer in two parts.
Yeah.
Now the trick to this,
the trick to this is, oh,
the hardest part of it
is to name
both parts up front.
I'm going to say
I'm going to say
I'm going to
ask the question.
And your answer
starts with
interesting question,
Carolyn.
Or carry
this two parts to that answer
and you name them both.
There's the issue of X
and the issue of Y.
It doesn't
actually matter
what you come up with.
Right? Okay.
And then you'll
and then you're
going to answer X
and explain that
and maybe
give us some other point
if you think you can.
And then you can answer Y
and try and come up
with the answer,
you know, explain that
and then do
a little summary point there
if you can. Okay.
So your question is.
Kind of scale.
This is
your question is
let's make it a bit
kind of question.
Pick an easy one.
Why?
You're kind of an easy one.
Well, let's
go to,
Is it fair for me to ask
the one that my my bill
at Tai Chi asked me
which is which?
Which? Okay.
Can it be broken?
Bitcoin be broken?
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
Because I'm not the.
I can,
I can make something up
short.
Yep.
Can bitcoin
be broken.
That's a great question
Cory in these
two parts to that.
So part one is
oh gosh
I know what I want to say
but I want
I want to do a good job
with this.
So part one would be
the maturity
of the protocol itself.
And part
two might be previous
attempts at breaking it.
I feel like
did the same thing
potentially.
But let us see how you go.
Yeah. Yep.
So, essentially
the network is past
the point
where it can be broken.
There was certainly a time,
historically speaking,
while Satoshi was still,
you know, involved in it,
where attacks
such as the 51
attack, when
Bitcoin could have,
broken the
protocol.
But again, this goes
back to the perfect
inception, like a series of,
unrepeatable historic events
that occurred to bring it
to the to the point
that where the protocol
is today, that even,
worldwide
coordinated attack
by governments could not
dismantle,
the protocol
due to its decentralization
and computing power,
where it is today.
I know
I'm going to get butchered
by people
who are very technical
in this space
for this answer.
But I think.
For an everyday person
like my my bill.
Perfectly solid answer.
Yeah.
And then what was the.
Sorry.
So there were two points.
The second part
was going to be
about previous attempts.
Previous attempts.
It wasn't
so much an intent
on on the protocol,
but it was like an attempt
to ban bitcoin,
whether that would
have an impact.
So like, for example,
the China ban,
it did impact the price.
But long term the
it's not really
done anything.
There's still people in China
who are mining
and using Bitcoin.
And that is the power
of a decentralized protocol
where no one can essentially
ban you from it.
You can't
you can't ban Bitcoin.
You can only ban
yourself from it.
But that's very good.
I'm so embarrassed by this.
Right I love it.
So the
so you broke it down
into two parts.
I think that's
the perfect answer.
I'm now going to get Bill
when I say hematite
check next week.
And
and I you
and you actually didn't
have overlap
between the two sections.
One was more
about the history
and the second part
was more about,
worked example
of a government,
attack,
if you like.
Yeah.
And so I wanted to.
Yeah.
Someone more
technical
would have done
a way better job
at explaining that.
But yeah, I'm
not a techie person.
I'm.
Do you know what I think?
We assume that.
And I think I've.
You know,
the best person to teach
cricket is not necessarily
the best cricketer.
The best cricketer.
It comes so naturally
to that person
that they don't know
how to break it down in,
in a really simple way
for a newcomer.
And like,
just your grade,
for your stance or your,
you know, it's
I don't know about
what's involved in cricket.
I'm making this,
and I think
we all assume
that.
Someone with my way
more knowledge
would do a better job,
but they often
don't explain it
as simply, I don't know
such basic English
that someone would
list information
in Alcoholics Anonymous.
They often say
the person with one week
sobriety is
better placed
to help
the new person in
who's got a single day
than someone who's
been around for 20 years,
because the person
who's been around for a week
is closer
to the experience
of how difficult it is on
that first day.
Yeah.
Then, yeah.
So I think we need
to be very careful.
Ultimately
in some ways you
could argue that
people.
So I had
to deep dive yesterday,
I realized that for my
few years in Bitcoin,
I didn't really get
how a protocol got played out
in terms of implementation.
What that
what languages?
What were the core languages
used by Bitcoin
to create that
first 30,000
lines of code?
Right
now, a code
for a coder
or a software
developer,
all of
that is so innate
that they
it wouldn't
even occur to them
to explain that
unbelievably basic level,
because it's
such a given.
Right.
And I just think that
they can miss real
foundational
core stuff.
Yeah.
It touches
there's so much
assumed knowledge
that, you know,
I don't even
realize you're assuming.
That are so that is so true.
Now that you say that,
I can totally say that,
because I know
there's people
in the community
who are very technical,
who would have gotten into
stuck into nodes in miners
and explain it
from like a very technical
and just would have
flown over everyone's head.
So yes.
Okay, I'll take it 100%.
100%.
And I would suggest
that maybe your answer
was clearer
and simpler
for someone
like my, my bill.
And let's place it.
That's where
we're at in
the adoption curve
is explaining to people like
Bill from chain.
Is it's explaining
to everyday people
who don't have
a financial background,
who don't have
a technical background.
And I don't think
non techie
sorry,
I don't think technical
and financial people
really understand
almost how little
everyday people,
everyday people,
Will have little.
But anyway,
just coming back
so, so again
it's like okay.
There is something to say,
this is the space I'm
trying to fulfill
in this podcast.
Like think of myself
as the gateway drug.
Hopefully I'm just like
the first stepping stone
on their journey.
And then,
you know,
I can point them
to more technical people
in the community like peas
and kitten that.
I don't like.
Let me go on your way.
Take the on your way,
you know,
and we can guide you through
the next step to some degree.
And now we need someone else
to take up.
So that's absolutely right.
But anyway, look,
I guess my
my whole point in taking you
through that exercise
is the difference
between an explanation
to an example,
to a demonstration,
and to a training exercise,
for very different processes
and steps.
And we
I don't think we do that
especially well
in the Bitcoin community.
But I
feel like we're very good
at explanations.
We can do
we can do good examples.
And sometimes
we go as far as
demonstrations.
So we
might get a demonstration
or the Bush batch
of seed signing
the peers might do
for instance,
or the nick
might do with frost may.
So,
we'll get a demonstration.
But it's a rare day
we would get hands on
and do something
occasionally.
But actually physically
give it a go ourselves.
And so that's
really the idea with the,
the training
that we are doing is
get people
to physically have it,
not interact
with the technology.
We're not going to
the technology.
It's having,
kind of fun interactive games
that that get them
involved in
taking the journey
and taking the
leaps themselves, making them
think through
the story of logic,
get them to think about
what happens
when you print
too much money.
What does that do
to your money?
Ask them the question
to get them to find
their own conclusions
rather than just hear it.
All this.
Let me explain it to you,
which becomes
dry and I would
argue, requires
a lot of repetition
for the retention
to take place.
A lot of touch points
that you've got to listen to,
which is what we all sort of
mostly end up
doing in the Bitcoin space.
Listening
to a lot of podcasts,
reading a lot of newsletters,
reading books,
and trying to piece it
all together into some sort
of logical format
in our mind.
And you could say
some of the books
do that, like,
Broken Money
by that old and like,
you know,
the con standard, etc.
take us through
that kind of logical journey.
But we're still
sitting, reading,
trying to figure it
out for ourselves
and take it on board
for ourselves.
And how nice would it be
just to have
someone hold your hand
and work it out with you?
And when your questions
came up,
you could answer
the questions on the spot
and had the luxury of time
to do that. So
yeah, that's what
I really
like about this format.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And another great tip
that I've received
was from Bayani.
And this
works a finding particularly
well when someone, asks like,
what is Bitcoin's
intrinsic value?
And before even answering
that is asking them
back, like, what do you
what does intrinsic value
mean to you?
And different
people will have vastly
different answers.
Some people might say, like,
for example, the intrinsic
value of gold is
its industrial use.
So, you know, a side that
we think it's a pretty shiny
rock.
We also, you know, use it
in dentistry, for example.
So some people
define intrinsic value
that way.
Other people, funnily
enough,
you won't be surprised
by this at all.
But, they think intrinsic
value of fiat is
that it's backed by gold.
And we know that
that's not the case, like
a lot of people
still think it is a load of.
But have you also found that
in your workshops
that people think fiat is
still backed by gold?
I don't think so.
I think people knew
it wasn't backed by gold,
but they assume it's backed
by government.
That government
will guarantee
that you won't lose
that in that.
And at one level that's true.
If you've got,
under 250,000 and bank
in a major banks
at least,
they will guarantee that
if the bank goes under,
you will get
I don't know whether it's
the full amount
or whether it's a percentage,
but you're certainly,
you know,
you won't get wiped out.
So and I would
and and to the degree
it that all you care about
is maintaining the dollar
figure in the bank,
then that is
at some level true.
And that's
what I think people think.
Money is backed by
this government
and they trust
their government
and they
know about the money printing
and they don't buy
that money.
Printing creates inflation
like you think.
Corporate price gouging
is the cause of inflation.
Yeah.
And I,
I and I'm
not good at answering that
because I get angry.
I like
how can you think that.
How can you say that
private sector
is the problem.
It's the government's
problem is
and there's a libertarian
I get
really upset about that.
But but then again,
that's
what kind of capitalism
is, right?
Is that it is
the big government,
the big corporations
in cahoots with government.
You know that
there is no clear
there is no real free
market these days.
So they're probably right.
There probably is an element
of corporate price gouging
because the
government enables it
and the
government interferes.
And every time
the government interferes,
you don't have free markets.
Yeah, yeah yeah
yeah yeah I, I,
I'm holding back from
sharing too much of
my opinion because like you,
I do get angry at this.
Like it's just,
it's funny.
I can just
imagine your colleagues,
reacting
to that question,
like holding you back.
We'll step in
and answer this one.
Yeah.
It's true.
That's true.
And and that's
actually one of the things
that I
am trying to improve in
my, not not in training,
but just in day to day
conversations is just fine.
I really like that
it that the ad is giving in
is that idea
of just asking a question,
because it also gives you
some breathing space.
If your natural tendency,
like mine,
is to get fired up,
then at least
by asking
the question two things.
Seven what is it?
Buys you some
cooling down time.
And number two,
it allows you
to hear the humanity,
as well as their
thought process.
So you get to hear,
you know, I'll often
ask people in a presentation
skills workshop
and they'll go,
you know,
I want to work on my,
you know,
what do you want
to get out of this workshop?
And they'll say nerves,
and then it'll come out,
of course, over the course
the next two days.
And it's interesting.
I'll ask two different people
in the same workshop.
Okay.
What's behind your nerves
or what is that?
What's the thought
process that what is it
that's worrying you about it?
And it'll be two
entirely different things.
You'd assume that
nerves as nerves as nerves.
But one person
is worried about,
getting
questions they can't answer.
Another person
is worried about,
I might not remember
everything that
I want to say, but.
So now you've got to.
And so it's it's
a really, really valid idea
to ask the question
because you're right.
What do they mean
by intrinsic value.
Yeah.
Yeah I,
I find that really helpful.
But I also like
answering questions
in groups.
I think it's a lot easier
when there's
at least one other person,
then next to you,
because you know,
if you have a brain freeze
or you think you're thinking
of the best way to answer it,
they can get the
conversation started,
and then you're like,
oh, I've got something to add
to this.
Whereas when
you're the only person
answering
the it's
a lot of pressure on you
to just give the best
possible answer.
And yeah.
It always feels like
there's a lot
riding on it, right?
It always feels
really high stakes
because I'm
the one they're faced
with right now.
I am the face of Bitcoin
for them.
I need to represent
Bitcoin effectively.
So it always feels
really, really high pressure.
But I mean
you could argue
that you could take them
on the entire journey
just with leading questions
and never have to answer
at all.
Angles,
Socratic style questioning
why do you think this is
that?
And you can just get going,
okay, but
what's the intrinsic
value of testing
and what's the.
Yeah.
So and why is that different
from any other currency
and why do you use
Aussie dollars or not pesos.
And
I mean you could just keep
asking questions, right?
And try
and lead them
there without ever.
And even
that they're
for giving an answer.
Yeah,
I like that.
It's very
exciting times in Bitcoin.
Yeah I see there's
so much opportunity
for your business
what you guys
are doing at the moment.
Do you have any people
reaching out to you
or you still
reaching out,
like doing the cold calling
and be like, hey.
Wait, yeah,
and it will be that way.
I would imagine, for
at least a couple of years.
Like I just I've started
training businesses before.
And to get that momentum
in the market,
you need to do
a lot of reaching out.
And, I don't know
that there's any shortcut
with that.
Maybe,
I mean,
if you have a big
marketing budget, etc., etc.,
but I've got no problem
with that.
I'm happy reaching out.
I believe in the cause.
I,
I
yeah, and
and we're doing it in
still a very targeted way
with people who we think,
most likely.
So we're doing, a piece
for an accounting firm
coming up.
It's a shorter piece.
It's not a full day.
So it's a real introduction
to like, Bitcoin basics.
And we're doing
45 minutes of presentation
with half an hour of Q&A.
And the expectation
is we're going to
have 40 or 50 people.
So,
so
then you start
to get
a little bit of traction
if you're starting to do
a number of those events,
and then you get
a funnel effect
for those people
who want to learn more
and want to come
and do the one day.
Yeah.
So there's
a bit of a kind of process
going on there.
And then we've also
got to think about
what of the follow up,
you know, do
you offer membership
for some sort of lifelong
ongoing education
like for signal Group
that we're doing,
which is offering
a lot of value
to past participants?
And we're coming up
with new kind of recorded,
oh,
it was a lot of
ways recorded,
but some of them like slides
or explanations for things
that are like in further
deep dive, a question
came up about this
in the workshop.
Here's a better explanation
of it, etc., etc..
So and then
and I'm thinking of doing
something I've,
I've had this idea in the
back of my mind for years.
Well, at least
a couple of years.
And I know, Jake,
Woodhouse has also
talked about this,
but I feel like
I had the idea first,
which is, one minute,
one minute education
students
like little one minute,
face to camera.
His foot is made by protocol.
He is
what is it
is is a unit of time.
Here's what it is is,
you know, like etc., etc..
Like, just keep it
really short,
sharp and snappy.
So the
so there's lots of ideas
for kind of growing it
over time and,
and getting people on board.
But we, we kind of anticipate
that people like the,
Deloitte's of the world
will be doing this any time.
And so we're really wanting
to get ahead
of the curve on adoption,
but also the S-curve
in monetization of training,
which we think is coming.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I always also wonder
about those consultancies.
Like I imagine
they would probably
be talking more
the crypto narrative
as opposed
to the Bitcoin narrative.
I can't
I'm just not imagining
that they.
Yeah,
it's just kind of
where my head is at that they
that they might
potentially be talking more
about blockchain
technology and and Lane
companies in a weird
sort of down
a weird path.
But,
I had a great question
for you.
I hope I didn't lose it.
I think I did
lose it, Kerry.
It was something
we were just talking about.
Just now.
Oh, yes.
So so in terms of,
I'm really curious to know
the people
that you have
trained to date,
how aware is
the average person
about the
Bitcoin developments
just in the last year alone?
Like, is the average person
a way what the US is doing
that is in
entire nation states but US.
Yeah.
The like are they aware
that Blackrock
is recommending to be said.
Are they aware that Ray
Dalio is recommending
15% allocation
like we are
not where we were in 2014?
There is so much more
like credibility
from their world.
They can add weight
to the argument.
So is the average person
aware of this?
I don't think so.
Not to the degree,
that they got smashed.
I my sense
from the little bit
that we've done so far,
the participants affected
so far is that it's
they've heard
bits and pieces,
they've seen headlines
and they don't get,
but they haven't
put the whole
picture together.
So we've literally got
a whole section
on regulation adoption
where we just
bang, bang, bang,
like, here's
all new regulations
that are in place.
Here's
what's going on
on the adoption side.
Here's what's happening
on the right hand side. Side.
The corporate side
did a little,
you know, just
and then it's
like pieced together
almost in a ten minute
segment
that's
almost overwhelming
deliberately
so in terms of,
you aware of all of this
that's going on.
Right.
And and keeping it,
what I think is really useful
is keeping it,
which as we know,
Bitcoin is a political.
But,
you know, it's
still it's
considered a little bit
more well, certainly
libertarian
and in sailing libertarianism
at least old school.
Right wing ism.
That used to be about
kind of frugality
in terms of government
spending, etc., etc.
but to say it
in a completely
apolitical way and just go,
this is not about
any one government
anywhere in the world.
This is simply
what is happening
and what it means
for Bitcoin,
regardless of what
you think.
Yeah, well,
one of the things
I love about, I follow
a couple
of technical analysis,
analysis people,
so they're
not guilt by actually,
do you know, Joe,
someone like Posner.
Know I'm going
to write this down.
Two brothers,
once in Brisbane, once in,
Gold Coast.
I think.
And I started following them
when I was into crypto,
when I started trying
to do a bit of trading.
So it was before
I really fell down
the Bitcoin rabbit hole.
But I still really like
their technical analysis.
One of the things
that I absolutely loved
about this slide based,
but they
they always talk about,
the looks,
the headlines that
look at the news,
they're not
terribly interested
in the news because
ultimately they're
following the charts
and the charts in some ways
lead the news.
But I love that
they just don't.
They go,
we don't really care
about the politics
or the noise
or the headlines.
We care about
making money out of it.
But I,
I just,
well, that's
why most
people are going
to get into bitcoin
right now.
Go up the old
the old phrase is
I got into energy.
You and I stayed
for the revolution.
Right.
And, you know,
maybe we never get there
with mainstream normies.
The revolution,
maybe the only ever
get into it.
Change you.
And if that's the case,
that's what
we're going to focus on
in our orange
pilling efforts,
in our trading efforts is
let's just talk about
why it does have value.
And my number
is likely to go up
over the long term.
And that doesn't mean
there won't be
drawdowns along the way.
And you know,
like it's so
tempting to pull out like,
I got a friend
into Bitcoin
a few years,
when it was 57,000,
when it hit that peak of
about 61 or
62,000 last cycle.
And then it came
crashing down right
to whatever it was like.
Oh 15 16,000.
Right.
So she got in at 57,000
and then it crashed to 16,
right.
Or 15 or whatever it was.
And she rang me at 15
or 16 and said,
I feel like I check it out
like before
it goes to zero.
And I said,
you told me
you would hang in there
for ten years.
What I know
is you don't buy at the top
and sell at the bottom.
Are you going to hang in
for ten years
even.
Yes.
Now obviously I want to stay,
to stay in
for longer than ten years.
And thank God she did.
Right.
And now
I'm dealing
only thing up as high as 120.
So U.S.
So
that thing of yours
she is in it for number one.
She doesn't give us stuff.
So you've just
got to ride out
the volatility and,
and you know,
numbers go up
and they don't
want to have the,
the crazy gains that I've had
in the first
ten years of its existence.
But it's still
likely to at least
outpace inflation
and likely outpace
every other mainstream asset.
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm just really curious
to see
what's going to happen
with adoption and even just
the rest of this, like, well,
I don't have any idea
what to expect,
but I have lowered
my expectations to
150, being the top
because I'm
just like, I.
Is a seller, right.
And and the thing
is, what does it matter
anyway if you're holding
the long term?
If you're going okay
for this cycle,
I've had the top in mind
for 135.
For some reason.
I've been saying that
for about two years.
In fact,
I was probably influenced
by the passing
of the brothers
that I had in mind.
I have and 35.
Funnily enough,
they reinforced that again
recently, looking at it.
Yes.
And so
and like, well,
and the only reason
that's valid for me
is that I
then get to wait
even longer
until it comes down
again, like so.
I do expect a drawdown
from there.
And then I'll wait
for the casinos to tell me.
But most importantly,
I tend to watch the Fear
and Greed index.
And when it's under 15,
I know it's time to stack.
So,
so what
does the top mean to me?
Doesn't mean anything.
It just means
I've got to wait
another year or 18 months
before I start
stacking beyond.
Okay? Right.
Yeah.
I'm putting in
more than my regular,
my regular.
Yeah.
Looking around your house,
what else can I sell?
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Exactly.
How much is this
not worth to me?
Can I sell it
on Facebook Marketplace?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
I wanted to ask Kerry,
do you have any final
thoughts?
Anything you want to discuss
before we wrap up?
No, I think the
the message is loud
and clear.
I think I think there's two
different messages
going on here.
If you're not into Bitcoin,
learn about it.
There's there's
a plethora
of folk
in the bitcoin community
who are busting at the seams
to try and help you out
and hold your hand
and get you over the line
and guide you
through the use case
and guide you
through the process
of buying
and storing Bitcoin.
And then
I've got a separate message,
which is for any bitcoiners
who are listening
and who
may still be listening,
which is
really about
the communication
and thinking about,
are there ways of packing
packaging up this message
in a way that I go beyond
explaining
beyond examples?
Two demonstrations,
leading questions,
and even training
that,
you know,
really impromptu
the simple way.
But is there a way
of getting someone
to interact with this thing?
Which is why,
you know,
with and,
comrades,
of, of orange Peel,
so many people is just
set up a wallet.
Here's five bucks of Bitcoin.
You're on your way, you know,
because that's
a form of training.
It's it's interactive.
It's and
it's probably more effective
at orange
killing people
than trying to give
all the
explanation, technical
or financial, in the world.
So I think I didn't take that
as seriously when was and,
Bill has told me that,
but I
the more I have around
the space, the more valuable
I think that it is
as an orange
peeling technique.
Yeah,
yeah, for sure.
I've had so many people
utilize that and it does work
very well for them.
Because then, yeah, people
start obsessing about it.
Keep looking back.
It was like,
what's Bryce doing today?
Like.
And yeah.
Just it's interesting, right?
Yeah.
It's like
weighing yourself every day
or watching your lavender
plant grow in the garden
every day. Right.
There are days
when it's flat.
There are days
it looks like it's wilting
in the summer sun.
Yeah, right.
And,
and it's it's
just not helpful.
You've just got to.
Yeah.
I mean, we know
people in the bitcoin space
who refuse to look at price,
who you try
to avoid every allusion
to price possible
and just try
and live their lives
without ever
acknowledging the price.
And I think there's something
extremely healthy about that.
Yeah for sure one
bitcoin equals one bitcoin.
That's perfect.
Nice way
to finish up.
Yeah.
Let me know Carrie
how can people find you.
What's the best way
to reach out to you.
So great.
So the new email address is
Carrie and be treasury
accommodate you
at be treasury.com today.
You and our website
which is being updated at
the moment is w w w dot
bitcoin Treasury
solutions.com.
Nice nice lovely
I can't
wait to watch your
journey unfold.
And yeah like I feel like
I already learned a lot
from this session.
It's given me ideas of
what we can start,
you know,
implementing back
in the Northern Rivers
community as well.
We already do some like quite
interactive meetups,
but I think we could just
level it up.
So thanks.
Fantastic.
Well, stay in contact with me
and let me know how you go,
because I'd really like to.
If there's some way
I can support you with slides
or with information
or whatever,
let's just swap notes
and see if we can make
that happen
for sure.
Thank you so much, Carrie.
So just to
spend some time,
thank you
for having us on the show.
Cheers. Thanks.