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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.113)
Hi. I'm okay. All right, how are you?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:02.253)
Hi, how are you?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:06.638)
Uh, you know, hanging in there yesterday. Well, as of when we're recording this, this is going to date it by a few days. But yesterday I was actually feeling a little hopeful, which I haven't been feeling for a while as I watched Cory Booker speak for. Well, I didn't watch all 25 hours of it, but I watched a solid six or seven of it and it did. I know. Well, I mean, in the background while I was working and stuff. But, um, yeah. And that gave me a little sense of hope, a little feeling of like, I don't know.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:09.24)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:25.524)
wow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:35.0)
We're gonna get through this somehow, but yeah, I don't know. I'm still dealing with some depression waiting for the doctors to get me to talk about medicine and whatnot, but I'm surviving. How about you?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:36.354)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:45.838)
Yeah, yeah, I'm alright. I'm a little sleepy right now, but I haven't been sleeping well. Anxiety. Like, I have that Dochi song just like running through my head.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:03.086)
Okay, I'm old. What's the Doji song? okay. I don't know if I know it. I'll have to listen to it. Maybe I shouldn't listen to it.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:07.321)
It's a song called Anxiety. Yeah, yeah, I'll send it to you. send it to you. mean, I don't... It's funny. were talking... Melo's little cousin who lives in California called us yesterday because she's getting ready to go on like a trip during her spring break to like visit different colleges through this program that she's a part of where they like fund everything, which is amazing. But so we were...
talking to her last night about getting ready and like what to pack and things to expect on the East Coast, because a lot of the schools are on the East Coast. And so she brought up like one artist and I was like, I don't know who that is. Like, I don't listen to, I don't really listen to current music that much. The only time that we do is like when we're on the radio. But anyway, Dochi has a song called Anxiety in which it sounds a lot like Gautier's
somebody that I used to know. Like it's got that same like kind of like jingle in the back. But there's a line that's like somebody's watching me. It's my anxiety. That's the line that keeps going through my head.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:13.882)
well, I can, yeah, I can relate to that. The anxiety meds are helping, with the anxiety piece, but yeah, anyway, I mean, this is the messy reality of like living is this is a hard time to be alive. And, yeah, and it's hard. It's, just saw somebody post something on, think it was our friend Jordan Maney who reposted it on LinkedIn that said something like,
Taina Brown she/hers (02:21.548)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:25.067)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:41.27)
I know the world is ending, but did you get my email? That kind something like that. And I can hard relate to that right now of like, that's this like internal challenge I'm feeling almost every day when I sit down in my office. It's like, so I'm supposed to work right now? This is weird, you know?
Taina Brown she/hers (02:43.883)
You
Taina Brown she/hers (02:50.569)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:55.943)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've talked about this before on the podcast too, where it's like...
Becky Mollenkamp (02:59.861)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:02.932)
things are supposed to feel like we're supposed to pretend like things are normal, but they're not. But then the flip side of that is also like, we should be kind of sticking to some of our normal things because that's what helps us feel grounded and stabilized in a world where everything feels destabilized. that's not what the podcast is supposed to be about today. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:25.56)
Well, no, but I think it relates to it in that when I feel that stuff, I think what can be helpful and why I had suggested let's talk about this today is, and you are so good and many others I know are so good at helping me do this, which is how do we think about what we want and stop just focusing on what we don't want? And right now, you know, we're all sitting a lot of muck of what we don't want and the heaviness of that and the weight of that.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:45.864)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:52.379)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:54.434)
And it's like, how do you get through that? And I think Booker yesterday helped me a little bit tap back into some of that feeling of like, okay, wait a minute. What do I want then? What is the America that I want to be a part of creating? What does a feminist future look like and feel like? Can I tap into that a little bit to keep me going, to pull me out of this, to pull me forward? And so I guess that was, I was like, let's talk a little bit about, cause I don't know if we've really delved into that here of like,
Taina Brown she/hers (04:08.201)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:15.082)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:24.268)
When we talk about a feminist future or building a feminist future, what does that mean? What are we all working towards? What's the liberation that we hope to get to?
Taina Brown she/hers (04:24.392)
I don't think we have.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:30.195)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:33.562)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think we've really dug deeply into that on the podcast and it's one of those things where it's like, you're, we're like, when you think about that, it's like starting from scratch. So it's like, whoa, okay. Like it can feel overwhelming and it's almost easier to just stay in fight mode because that's familiar. Like,
mentally, emotionally, like in your body, like physically, it feels familiar. So there's like a level of comfort in staying and just like, well, these are the things we're fighting against. Like, let's just focus on that, right? But that's not sustainable. So I'm glad you brought it up because it's like, the thing that will sustain us is that vision for the future, right? And the clear that vision for the future is
the more sustainable it is, like the more we're able to direct our action and spend our energy and our time and our resources on the things that are getting us to that future as opposed to like staying in the fight. so like, and the visioning is part of the fight. And I think a lot of times we forget that.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:46.306)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:51.694)
Yeah, because I think if you're only focusing on what you don't want, you're always running from something instead of running towards something. And it's very reactive versus proactive. And I think that reactive state wears you down. Whereas running like always running away from the lion, eventually you run out of energy. But if you're running towards the shelter, then eventually, know, you're going to get there and feel that safety and feel good. Right. And it's something to be motivated for.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:56.858)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:11.686)
Mm-mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:15.056)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:18.638)
because always running away is very demotivating and very exhausting. And so I do think it's important. And I know I'm the kind of person who can easily like I very often like what I don't want. Like I don't like patriarchy. I don't like racism. I don't like, you know, I don't like Trump. I don't like this. I don't like that. OK, but what do I want? And I've been challenged by younger feminists. And I so appreciate this to be like, what is it that you do want? What is the future future you are building? And
Taina Brown she/hers (06:18.65)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:22.03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:37.455)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:43.468)
When I get in that state, I always remember a boss I had when I worked at Better Homes and Gardens magazine, don't even care if she listened to this, my cholera. She used to be the editor and chief at the time. And she was one of those bosses that could never tell you what she wanted. She would only tell you what she didn't want. So you would present an idea and she'd be like, nope, I don't like that. And be like, well, what's, I don't know. I can't quite put my finger on it. I just know this isn't it. And it would.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:57.573)
my god, those are the worst!
Becky Mollenkamp (07:10.346)
always be this like trying to figure out what is it then if it's not this what is it and like using some clues of like well I guess if you don't like pink maybe you'll like orange but you haven't said you like orange so I'll just try orange and if you still don't like that well let me try purple right and that gets really tiring and so I try to think back about that and say like hell like I'm showing up that way a lot of times and I don't want to be that person because it's not that's not motivating that's not exciting that's not something that inspires people right that
Taina Brown she/hers (07:12.965)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:20.503)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:25.913)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:37.253)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:39.726)
turns people off. And so when we are very focused on all of what we don't want as activists, and I think this happens, I do it, but I know lots of other people do it where we, and I get why, right? Because we're in it and it feels awful and you just want to be like, fuck this. But that isn't the kind of thing that brings people on to say, I want to join the fight, right? Because there's like, there's a bunch of angry people who are just pissed off about everything. They don't even know what they want. They just know what they don't want. That's not
Taina Brown she/hers (07:53.269)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:01.204)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:05.774)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:07.03)
exciting and motivating. And so I do think it's really important for us to like, get clear about what we want and share that if we want to actually create change.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:15.138)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I've had bosses like that too. And it's like, there's nothing for you to aim for. So there's your setup to fail basically. And I think, you know, I think there are organizations, right? And like activists and, you know, just regular people who are, have organized themselves.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:24.718)
Yeah!
Becky Mollenkamp (08:29.974)
Exactly! Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:44.107)
into the work that do have a clear vision and it actually brings to mind the Combahee River Collective.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:52.504)
Yeah, well, I'm glad you said that because my mind goes to immediately the people who have most challenged me on these issues. It's never white women. It has always been women of color, black women. I've had Asian women who have challenged me, but it's never been white women because I think that we live in this weird place where we've talked about this before, where white people have never really been challenged to be creative, right? To think of things differently.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:01.184)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (09:18.08)
Mm. Be imaginative, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:21.27)
Yeah, whereas people of color have always had to be able to imagine a different future, right? And so I think that's exactly right. Where do we look for that inspiration? It's probably not going to be the white ladies. So the comedy remember collective is
Taina Brown she/hers (09:24.468)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:34.946)
The well-meaning but sometimes toxic white feminists. Yeah, no, it brings to mind their Black feminist statement, right? Like they put that out in the 70s and they became the Combahee River Collective because they didn't feel they were Black lesbians and they didn't feel like there was space for them in the women's movement of that time. But they also didn't feel like there was space for them in
Becky Mollenkamp (09:40.374)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:03.637)
the Black Liberation Movement at that time, right? And the women's movement because they weren't white and the Black Liberation Movement because they weren't straight or male. And so they put out the, right, right. Yeah, the more like public display of intersectionality. Cause I was rereading through my women's studies textbook cause I'm kinda.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:14.242)
really that beginning of the intersectionality, understanding of that.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:31.474)
My plan is to go through it on TikTok. I'm still in the beginning parts of that. But one of the things that the writers say is that intersectionality has been, the idea of it has been around for centuries. You can see it pop up in different places, but the public display of it really started with the Combahee River Collective. And then from that, we have scholars like Kimberly Crenshaw who,
coined it, who used that specific language around it. And it's kind of become what it is today. But yeah, their Black feminist statement, it's basically a manifesto, right, of what they envision for the future, the kind of world they were hoping for. And you can't talk about things like, or people like those of the Calm Behaviour Collective, right, without talking about people like Audre Lorde and Bell Hooks. And so
I think this is a really good pivotal time for me and you, but also for people who are listening or watching on YouTube, that if you're in that place of like, like, fuck, what does a better future look like? Like, what world am I trying to build, right? Like we've talked about being in community, building community, skill sharing, knowledge sharing, et cetera. Like all of those things have to be a part of.
right, the bigger, better world. Or not, I don't want to say the bigger, better, because that sounds like capitalist language, but the next world, right, that we're trying to build. But this is a time for those of us who are in that, in this space of like, how do we take this broad idea of building a better world or the next world and like make it really tangible and maybe something we can hold on to?
and actually touch. This is a good time for us to start reading some of those black feminist thought leaders from decades ago, current ones, right? And so I have been trying to engage with a lot more of that content on social media, because I feel like my algorithm was mostly funny shit, cooking or gardening, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (12:55.106)
Which makes sense because we also like just to honor that, right? When you're in the beginning of it, it's just so heavy. And I think now maybe we're in the same place or I'm trying to get there, which is like, okay, I can stay in the muck of it or I can start to think about the future. So of course for a while there, it was just like, need distractions, but yeah. And now what, right? I think the question is kind of, and now what?
Taina Brown she/hers (12:56.06)
You
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:13.061)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think that future looks like for business owners? Because we're both business owners, right? Who want to do business differently and who have been trying to do business differently outside of, as much outside of the capitalist system as we can, right? We can't completely escape it because it's...
Becky Mollenkamp (13:29.102)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:38.551)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:42.448)
the water we swim in, Yeah, for now, for now.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:44.482)
Right. For now. Well, I'm going to first of all, want to just say I'll link to the the Kambahee River Collective statement. I'm going to put a link to that and show notes for anyone who hasn't read it. You can I think you read it entirely online. No, right. So read that. And then I also totally back you up on bell hooks who's changed my life. And then Audre Lorde was also very, very important.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:57.519)
Yeah, yeah, and it's not long, like you can read it in like five, ten minutes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:11.63)
So and I just because it made me think of again Cory Booker and one of the things that I wrote in my newsletter to my email list Yesterday as I was watching it was this that it's I love that you mentioned it because he kept talking about John Lewis, right? Let's get into good trouble He was referencing Selma and the the Edmund Pettus bridge the walk that that they did there He talked about Stonewall, right? He talked about
Taina Brown she/hers (14:33.119)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:36.066)
Seneca Falls, even though there's lots of problematic issues around Seneca Falls, there's also, you know, women's suffrage, white women's suffrage. But he talked about all of these people that have come before. And one of the most beautiful parts of his speech was when he got into some of that and talking about like, stand on the shoulders of these folks, right? That's who's gotten us here. And I think it is so important for us to learn from the people who've come before us. Even again, like even if it's Seneca Falls and you're like, they did a lot of things wrong, there was also still within that a lot that was right.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:39.647)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:52.734)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:05.838)
Right. And then and let's also learn from the parts that were wrong. Right. The ways it wasn't intersectional and should have been. And how do we reference that and learn from that for what we're doing now? So I just think it's really important for us to learn from those who've come before us, because there are no new ideas. Right. It's just these ideas evolve and we learn from our past and especially at a time when they're trying to keep us from our past and trying to rewrite the past. think it's really important that we learn from those things. So I just wanted to say that. I love that you mentioned it.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:05.985)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:20.984)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:28.685)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:35.02)
business and that's probably where I've been spending a lot of my time thinking is around business, but I also want to think bigger than that just personally and we can talk about some of that. But one of the things that for me I've been sitting with a lot is like, does business and you know this because you and I are about to endeavor into a joint venture. For me, it's been like, what does it look like for me to do business collectively as a solopreneur inside of that word like solo, it's just me and I've been in business for myself by myself.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:37.529)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:41.496)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:52.45)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:05.06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:05.122)
for 20 years. And I don't ever want to work for someone again. And I have so rebelled against corporate America and that sort of environment and knowing I'm unemployable and that I never want to work for someone that I forgot that I still really love working with others. I don't want to work for someone, but I want to work with others. And I don't really want to be a boss necessarily. want to have, I want
Taina Brown she/hers (16:23.786)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:32.685)
teams of people. I love the idea of what I've been trying to explore with that is like that can flow and add and change. What are the rules that say that it has to be like this rigid thing where I work with this person and we always do everything together? Like I've been exploring what does it look like work with one person on this project and someone else on that project, but always thinking about how could I do whatever this thing is I'm doing inside of my business? How could I do that collectively? How could I do that in community?
Taina Brown she/hers (16:39.768)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:59.574)
instead of making everything such a solo individual effort and share in the rewards of those things. And then in line with that, I've also been exploring, so then what does equity look like inside of those kinds of arrangements, right? Instead of having these rigid beliefs around everything needs to be 50-50, money, effort, time, blah, blah. What does it look like to think about those relationships in a more equitable way, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (17:13.67)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:21.327)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:26.923)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:28.302)
one person like with faith, my partner and feminist founders, you she has several children and that have neuro, what she called them neuro, I don't know if she uses neuro spicy, but you have no, you know, that are neurodivergent and, is single, right? She doesn't have a partner at home. So she has, and obviously she's also a black woman and their differences and the way that she, the demands on her time and the demands on her energy looks than mine as a white woman with a partner at home.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:43.787)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:47.446)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:57.388)
you know, with only one child who is neurotypical. So we don't look at our arrangement as this like 50-50 arrangement of time, right? It's what is equitable time distribution look like? And me sitting on the side of maybe the one who sometimes does more of the workload, being able to like challenging myself to sit inside that and say,
Taina Brown she/hers (18:06.705)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:11.21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:21.848)
Who said, like, where did I get this message that everything always has to be 50-50 and even voice be fair, right? And what is equity and justice look like instead of, you fairness? So those are some of the things right now that I've been sort of exploring for myself inside of business as I think about what do I want business to look like? And when I'm in those things, it feels so good. this last year of exploring, working more communally,
Taina Brown she/hers (18:26.377)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:32.712)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:44.296)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:49.634)
has really changed the way I feel about my work and for the better. And so that's been exciting. I know those are some of my initial thoughts. I'd love to hear like, what are you exploring in business and or life? Or what do you, and it doesn't even have to be what you're exploring, just like what are you dreaming of?
Taina Brown she/hers (18:54.269)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:59.365)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:07.252)
Yeah, yeah. So this actually has come up in the Emergent Strategy Book Club that I'm doing inside of the community that we're a part of. we actually have a meeting this week, and this week is the chapter on nonlinear and decentralization.
And then the last meeting was a chapter on intentional adaptation. And what we do in the book club is everyone reads the chapter on their own. And then when we come together, I basically have anywhere from like 10 to 20 questions like that I've pulled out from each chapter. And we spend time journaling about one or two questions that
We're kind of using like a somatic approach, right? So like my guide for people is if there are like one or two questions where you're just like, like you're kind of excited to answer that kind of like let you up or give you butterflies in your stomach or like your body just feels lighter, like spend 20 minutes on those questions. If there are questions that do the opposite, that you're just like, God, you know, like.
You know what the answer is, but you're kind of not ready to confront it, or it kind of gives you a little bit of anxiety. Don't answer those questions during the session, but earmark them for later. Just be curious about your response to those questions. And so some of the questions, I'm going to pull it up. have the slides here.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:54.498)
While you do that, just want to say one of things I'm hearing inside of that that lights me up is thinking about business and work and how we spend our time thinking about that in a more somatic way, which is not something we've ever been conditioned to do. We're very conditioned to be outside of our bodies, to not think about our bodies. then the number one thing in the rules for a feminine economy or whatever it's called, I'll link to it, Jennifer Armbrust from Sister IS.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:08.025)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:14.255)
just be in your head.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:23.85)
Anyway, the number one one is you have a body, right? And we have to remember that that you have a body. And so I love thinking about how you're showing up inside your work. Stomatically, like how is it feeling in your body? And I guess, again, that goes back to some of the what I was talking about, where those are the things, like I said, that like make me feel excited, make me feel they make me feel relaxed. You know, so I love that. Go ahead. Hopefully you found what you're looking for.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:29.615)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:35.534)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:44.621)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I found the question. like, one of my favorite questions for this chapter was, who are your closest business neighbors? What moves are they making? And what is the right distance between you and them? And so the reason that I love that, so like in the chapter on intentional adaptation, Adrienne talks about, she uses the example of like murmurations and how like when you see them like,
Becky Mollenkamp (21:57.314)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:15.746)
it's just like a giant swath of birds that are just like moving it. They're moving chaotically, but they're moving in sync, right, with each other. And so there's this almost equal distance between each of the birds, right? And if, you know, one bird moves this way, then like they all just kind of follow that, right? And so the way that they do that is that each bird is tuned into its seven closest neighbors.
And in that smaller collective within the larger collective, they're able to build that synchronicity. And so it just really got me thinking and something that's just been stuck with me that I've been stuck with for the past couple of weeks. It's like, who are my closest business neighbors in work? And that doesn't necessarily mean geographically. That could be values aligned. That could be aligned in the kind of work that we do.
And it could also be geographically, right? Like there are a few people here in Baltimore that I've met over the past year or so that are entrepreneurs or work in nonprofit or organizing them. I would like to be in relationship with them, right? And so thinking about who are my closest business neighbors or work neighbors, right? And what would it look like to have that
kind of synchronicity with them. That doesn't mean we always have to be doing work together, but if like, like if I, and it doesn't always have to be like seven people, right? Like the number can be whatever it is for you, right? But like if, let's say it is seven people hypothetically, and if four out of the seven are moved, seem to be moving in the same direction, right? In terms of like, not the kind of work that they do, but like,
any kind of shift that's happening within their work, right? And so a shift from like, I don't know, moving from doing work five days a week to having a dedicated three-day work week, right? Like let's say that's a shift that some of my closest work neighbors are doing. if that is a trend or pattern that I'm seeing, how do I move with that same pattern?
Taina Brown she/hers (24:41.856)
Right? Because that's a way to build ease, right? By being in synchronicity with some of the people who are closest to me, know, metaphorically, literally, et cetera. And so it's a question that I think is never fully answered because shifts are always happening and changes are always happening. Yeah, like change is constant. And so...
Becky Mollenkamp (25:05.614)
I can change, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:10.124)
As we're thinking about the kind of future that we want to actually live in, the kind of world, not just like, we want a world that's equitable. Okay, that's great. What does that mean on a day-to-day level? What does that look like day-to-day? What does that look like in your community, in your literal neighborhood, in the networks that you're a part of? If that's what we're trying to move toward, we have to learn.
how to work in that synchronicity, right? Because that's what's going to create better relationships with the people who are in our networks, whether it's a digital network or an in-person network, et cetera. And that's also way to build ease into your business, right? Because if you're over here trying to make a shift that no one else is making, right? And there are times for that, right? This isn't a complete...
yes or no to any of those things, right? Right, there are no binaries here, right? So there are times where you're going to have to make shifts that no one else is making. But as much as possible, if you can tune into like the energetic and logistical shifts that most people are making, then that becomes inherently easier for you because there's an opportunity to adapt.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:08.322)
No binaries.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:35.689)
practices that other people are making, right? Like it's like instead of recreating the wheel, right? Like you're learning from other people instead of like trying to figure everything out on your own. And so that the book club has actually been really helpful lately. Yeah. I know, I know I didn't want to do it on Fridays either, but I was like, but that's really kind of the only day I can do it. But that the recordings are there. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:45.987)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:51.768)
I know, I'm bummed I haven't been able to make it. I don't like Fridays. That's my- that's not a day that I usually have availability for.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:00.334)
It's okay. I will eventually get to it. You're going to repeat it, so I'll get to go through it next time. When you talk about the, first of all, the murmuration thing, makes me think of a conversation I just had with Faith about that exact sort of thing about how birds, like when they fly together and that V formation that we're so used to seeing, one of the things we know about them too is that lead bird changes, right? So the one in the front goes to the back and somebody new takes up the front mantle and they keep doing that so that the people who are in the front get some rest, right? Because
Taina Brown she/hers (27:20.221)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (27:27.517)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:28.15)
It's easier. You can go a little slower in the back. You're not having to be the person driving forward the change all the time. And that's how they're able to cover such massive distances without having to stop and, you know, without having to give up because they're constantly sort of shifting out who's leading and who's following. And that was something I was talking about with her. And I'm like, I love that in thinking about that in business too and what that looks like within your own company, but within your, your top.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:41.256)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:45.64)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:56.108)
seven or it makes me think of my space with your like top eight, right? Like and those little networks that we have. And it reminds me of and I think part of when I think about like what I want, both in business and life, I think they're the same. And it makes me think of like communities of care or collective care. And my son, the other day we were driving to school through our subdivision and he just randomly said, like, I just I love our I love where we live. And I said, well, that's really great. What do you like? And he's like, everyone's it's just so nice. Everyone's so nice.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:58.352)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:11.456)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:25.9)
And I said, well, wouldn't you rather live at your aunt's house? His aunt has a huge McMansion with an in-ground pool and a theater and all of that. All the things, right? And he said, surprised, shocked me, honestly. He said, no, say I'd rather live here. And I said, you wouldn't have all those things. He's like, I like it here. Everyone really takes care of each other. Everyone's so nice. All my friends are here. And I just was thinking like, and there's nothing special or remarkable about our neighborhood in particular, other than we do have
Taina Brown she/hers (28:33.022)
Mm-hmm all the fun stuff
Becky Mollenkamp (28:55.084)
There are some areas of that. Obviously, there's exceptions, but we have a lot of people who care for each other. And during the winter, my husband has a snowblower, and not all of our neighbors do. We also have some elderly neighbors. One of our neighbors across the street is in her third fight against cancer. I hope she may say she has sort of adopted my kid as her grandchild, right? And so my husband, when he was snowblowing our driveway, double driveway, he went over.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:00.618)
wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:16.072)
Becky Mollenkamp (29:25.078)
with my son and did hers, our elderly neighbor on another side, and then a couple people across a couple houses who are just always lovely to us and, are love my kid as well. He did like four or five houses in the neighborhood while my son was out there shoveling the sidewalks. And then what happened? Well, a lot of them then brought us food. I don't love to cook. So that was so lovely. And just like a reminder for me of like,
Taina Brown she/hers (29:35.786)
Mm-hmm.
and
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:50.636)
What are the things that we can do for others? And then how do we, what's that like arrangement, that care of like, you care for me in this way that you can, and I will care for you in this way that I can. And hopefully collectively all of our needs get met. And I'm not saying we do that all the time in this neighborhood, but it was an example of that. And thinking about like in business, which is something I think we've been thinking a little more with the mastermind that you and I are in with Faith and Jordan, which is like, how do we collectively
Taina Brown she/hers (30:00.494)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:04.975)
Get met, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:19.704)
help each other in our businesses. And I think there's more we could do there for sure than we have, but like that, that lights me up too. If you think about that, your, your murmuration of seven or eight or whatever, are there ways that you could support each other as one of you, like, especially when you're solopreneurs thinking like, I'm really good at making Canva graphics. This other person's really great at editing video. This other, is there a way that we can support each other?
Taina Brown she/hers (30:28.153)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:32.453)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:41.786)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:45.386)
each for our own businesses, but working sort of collectively towards a mission and thinking about that, not just in business, but in other areas of our life. And that's something that's been exciting me of like, I want to find more ways. And I say this as a deep introvert who also like, I love it in theory, but also sometimes I'm like, you mean I have to go people. But I think there's ways to even think about that of like, what could it look like for me as an introvert to participate in collective care in ways that still honor how I show up, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (30:48.696)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:13.876)
Yeah, yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (31:15.02)
And think that's to me also part of what that future looks like. It's like, how do we meet individuals for where they are, who they are, and still have that sense of collective care?
Taina Brown she/hers (31:17.548)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:24.757)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. That's so sweet of your husband to do the snow thing with Gus. I think that's just like, that's a perfect example of like, like when I think of how the leader does change, right? When birds, you know, fly in groups and migrate.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:43.822)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:49.377)
There are different ways, I think, that we as individuals lead. Like you said, if you're really good at making graphics for social media, that's one way you can lead in your community to take that responsibility off somebody else's shoulders so they can rest in that, but they can lead in another way. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:14.936)
Can I just quickly, I love that you mentioned rest because I do think going back to that idea of equity versus fairness and equal, that's also part of it. If I'm great at Canva graphics and I know you need rest, can I make some of your graphics if I have capacity to do that and not it being about an even exchange? Well, if I do this for you, you need to do this for me. But when you say you need rest, go rest. And then can you accept that? Right. And that's a challenge for so many of us too. I love that.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:20.555)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:32.194)
You have to do it for me, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're not a lot of us aren't used to accepting support or help without it being transactional. Right. And so one of the things that Adrienne talks about in her book, Emerging Strategy, I forgot what chapter it's in, but it's
Becky Mollenkamp (32:49.398)
Whoa.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:52.876)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:01.55)
I don't know, but this has got to be mentioned 50 or more from.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:08.064)
One thing that has stuck with me since the first time I read it because I am the worst at accepting help from people. I'm like, no, I got it. I'll just do it myself. And there's multiple reasons for that. And some of it is just ego. Some of it is impatience. Some of it like, yes, yeah, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:18.657)
Me too.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:27.352)
but also a lot of it is systemic and cultural, right? We are so hyper individualistic in America. It is so different than so much of the rest of the world where this idea of communal care is the norm, but here it is so not that we are, wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:33.886)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:39.27)
Yeah, it's so different here. Yeah, yeah. Here it's like, it's all about the individual. You pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You do things by yourself as much as possible because it's nobody's responsibility to take care of you but you. And that's not how most of the world works, right? We each have a responsibility to each other, to care for each other in most of the world. And that's why collectivist societies are some of the happiest societies on the planet.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:47.267)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:08.863)
and why our society is one of the most miserable. But one thing that she talks about in the book is like, again, I forgot which chapter it is. I think it's one of the later chapters where she had a surgery or was sick or something, and she was in a position where she had no choice but to receive help. And yeah, I can. I can. And so it was hard for her
Becky Mollenkamp (34:29.772)
You can relate to that.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:38.206)
She talks about how it was hard for her to receive it without feeling like she had to reciprocate that action. She had to reciprocate that help and coming to terms with the idea that I can't reciprocate it right now because I don't have the capacity or the skill set to be able to do it right now, but I can reciprocate down the road in other ways. The way that you reciprocate care is not
It's not always a tit for tat. It's not always, if you give me $100, I give you $100 back. Sometimes it's different. Sometimes it's, if you give me $100 because I have a need or whatever, then when I have an abundance of food, I give you some of my food. Right? Like, so it's this really dynamic, fluctuating way to think about how we care for each other. And Robin Wall Kimmerer talks about this in The Service Berry 2.
where she talks about this concept of when tribes would have an abundant harvest or an abundant hunting season, they didn't save their food, right? They didn't store it up. What they did was they would throw a party, they would throw a feast and feed everyone with their abundance. And so that sense of abundance gets shared with the community. And then what happens
later is like when another family in the tribe has an abundance of something else that they share with the community. And so in that way, everyone is taken care of and no one is ever wondering. And I think this is where a lot of people get stuck because they're like, but what if I need that $100 tomorrow? Right? What if I have a need tomorrow and I just gave all my stuff away? Right? There's no fear of that.
when there's trust built into the community, because you know that like your abundance today that you share with other people, there's this ongoing circle of abundance sharing, of wealth sharing, of knowledge sharing. And so because it's in constant motion, you don't have to save it because it's always going to make its way back to you. It's this spirit of reciprocity that she talks about also in Braiding Sweetgrass, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (37:01.243)
and how the colonizers, when they came, they were just like, these people are so generous, they're so giving. But how do we take advantage of it? But that's also where the derogatory term of Indian giving came from, right? Because it was this, like you had natives here, the indigenous tribes of the Americas, who would just give stuff freely to the colonizers. But then,
Becky Mollenkamp (37:08.206)
How do we take advantage of that?
Becky Mollenkamp (37:18.285)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:31.279)
they would also ask for stuff back if they needed it. And that was a completely new concept to people coming from overseas. They were like, but you just gave me this. Where are you asking for it back? And it's like, that was the norm in tribal communities because everything was shared. And so when somebody gives you something, that doesn't mean you now have ownership of it. It just means you're the one who's currently using it, but it's still available for everyone else to use.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:58.562)
Well, it's difference in scarcity versus abundance in the way we think. And it really makes you wonder how much and I'm sure there's stuff out there I could read on this and maybe I will. This might be an invitation myself because I wonder how much of that is that puritanical kind of culture that has created those feelings of scarcity because you look at other cultures that are not these deeply Christian cultures and often they have a very different
Taina Brown she/hers (38:04.699)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:08.793)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:26.572)
relationship with abundance, Like talking about these indigenous tribes that like, think they also, many of them had an abundance of gods, right? But there was belief in abundance and of faith that things will be cared for, that there's enough.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:34.637)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:41.08)
There's enough for all of us and there will be more that will come. Like this isn't the last hundred dollars that's going to show up in the world. And I know that I can give this and there will be more that will come. But you can't do that if you're really grounded in this like scarcity thinking, which may be rooted in like this whole punishing God thing. I don't know because I am not from that culture of deep Christianity, but it does seem interesting. There might be some correlation there, but it's just a difference in thinking. And I think part of that, like definitely I because I find even though I'm not
from that sort of Christian background, I'm raised in a puritanical altar and I have a lot of that scarcity thinking that will show up and it is a challenge to keep fighting yourself to say, no, like why am I holding onto this? Why am I afraid to share this, to work collectively on this thing, like bringing on faith as a partner? Like there's this, we've had conversations about this, I'm not speaking out of turn or anything, where I've had to sort of have that feeling of like, well,
Taina Brown she/hers (39:15.324)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:21.911)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:40.406)
I'm giving away half of my profit here. Why would I do that when I could just do it on my own and having to realize like there's enough, there's enough. And there's benefit in this also in this like changing my relationship with it. But I have to have faith that there's gonna be more. But that's hard. And I think that is for me, that's part of this vision of the world I wanna create. So I need to keep challenging myself. You I think as we come to the end of this, it's like as we think about the world we wanna create, and I hope
Taina Brown she/hers (39:41.937)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:48.161)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:56.905)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:01.899)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:09.006)
everyone listening thinks about them that for themselves, right? Stop thinking about what you don't want. What is it you do want? And then what does it look like in practice for you at that individual level? Where are you not acting in alignment with that vision? And that's the challenge for me is like, I think some of that is that abundance thinking for sure. That is one area where I definitely can see it, especially when things feel right as they do now economically uncertain and everything feels a little scary. It is easy for me.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:14.753)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:28.14)
I
Becky Mollenkamp (40:37.774)
And I don't blame myself. I think we all do this because our brains are wired to protect ourselves. And so when we get into a fear space, our brain goes into protection mode. And I have been trained that that scarcity mindset will protect me. But in fact, I think it actually does the opposite. Right. So it's a rewiring of my brain. So I got to rewire that. So I guess that's the piece I just want to make sure that we think about. I'm speaking to myself that I want to think about.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:45.929)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:53.655)
It does the opposite. Yeah. Yeah. Because if there's never enough, then you're always working.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:01.527)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:07.084)
is like, how do I take these things that we're talking about and bring them down into my business? Because I think, first of all, like you said, we can't know we can't try to get there if we don't know where we're going. So we have to hold vision. And then that vision sometimes can feel so big that you're like, this world where everyone cares for each other and like this utopia sort of thing sounds great. How is that going to happen when we live in this real world? And it's like, I think that that's then where you come down to the you go from the macro to the micro of like
Taina Brown she/hers (41:12.481)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:17.938)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:28.136)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:35.026)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:36.344)
What does it look like day by day? Where are you acting out of alignment with that vision and how could you begin to bring it into practice in your business? And so I think some of my challenges like to continue to think about collective, showing up collectively and what that looks like, thinking about equity versus fairness, or equality, thinking about abundance versus scarcity, that's a huge one for me. I don't know for you, are there things that you think like as I look at that macro vision?
Taina Brown she/hers (41:44.39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:54.632)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:04.514)
How do I bring up my grow for yourself?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:06.432)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. There definitely are. And I just want to say one more thing on the like, that abundance versus scarcity thing. Scarcity, scarcity. Scarcity, like, we see a lot of like,
financial coaches or financial advisors, wealth gurus, et cetera, who are always talking about money mindset, money mindset, abundance mindset, right? And I think there's a way that that conversation has been embedded within our toxic capitalist individualistic society that is creating more harm. And I just really want to shout out Stella Gold of My Gold Standard because one of the things that I've seen them do is
they don't talk about, they talk about money mindset, but within a class consciousness framing, right? And so a lot of money mindset work in moving from scarcity to abundance is a very individualistic conversation. And that's not going to get us out of the scarcity mindset, right? Because we're still relying on ourselves to do the thing to get us to our abundance. And so having that class consciousness,
is really important because that's how you step into that collectivist idea of abundance. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:24.744)
Can I just add one thing there? Because also we have to be mindful of who we're doing that with, right? Because that's big part of it. These native folks, the indigenous cultures that were here and giving freely and then wanting things back, they weren't doing it in a way with people who shared their vision and values, right? So then it bit them because they were showing up one way with people who were like,
Taina Brown she/hers (43:28.653)
Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:41.36)
Right. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:47.544)
Cool, how do I get more from you? How do I take, take, take, right? So we just have to be careful. And I think that's where you think about that. Your group of seven, your flock, whatever it is, making sure that you're in community with people who share this vision around abundance. Because if most of you are thinking abundantly and one of you is like, no, I'm just here to see how much I can get from you, then that's not gonna work. So yeah, I love that. And I'll link to my gold standard also in the show notes. And if you're listening, we'd love to have you on the show.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:49.445)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:54.864)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:00.935)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:07.748)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely.
Okay. Yeah. I think one of the things for me is, and this is something Adrienne Marie Brown, I feel like I've heard her say this. I don't remember where, but it's the one thing that I struggle with the most. she, somewhere at some point, I think it was like an Instagram Live or something of hers that I watched.
during the COVID shutdown, like in 2022 or 2023 or something. But one of the things that she was talking about was this idea that like, we can't be fully grounded without being tapped into our local communities, like geographically speaking. And
I've mentioned this before, but we're just, we're going into our third year in a new city. And I am an incredibly introverted person. Like I could go days in silence by myself, not speaking to anyone and be happy and forget what the sound of my voice sounds like, right? So, so the idea of like going out and like feeling rooted in the community here.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:23.788)
and be happy.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:39.896)
It doesn't feel necessary to me. And I think I'm still, but it is all that to say it is necessary. It's a necessary component of me feeling not just grounded, but being able to like fully immerse myself in that sense of community abundance, communal abundance. And that's something that I struggle with like on a very deep cellular level. And so
I think where I'm at with that is trying to find the balance between honoring my needs as an individual, but also stretching myself, making sure that I'm not staying comfortable for the sake of comfort, but that my growth edges are expanding.
That's the biggest thing for me, honestly, because I just, I will sign up for like a thing and then the day I'll be like, I don't feel like going, so I'm not gonna go. You know?
Becky Mollenkamp (46:35.598)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:41.998)
Sure, even better when somebody cancels something and I'm like, thank God and it's like, yeah I know I'm definitely the same way and so I'm gonna add that one on my list because that's definitely part of it Maybe we can challenge each other because you know you are in my flock of seven
Taina Brown she/hers (46:46.176)
Yes, yes, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:52.853)
Yeah.
Yeah, you're in mind. Yeah, you're in mind for sure. One thing I want to go back to like the beginning of this conversation that we had real quick before we wrap up and talk about because we were talking about how like people have kind of mapped this out already in the past, right? We're talking about black feminist leaders and thinkers like the ComBeHeebora Collective and Bell Hooks and Audre Lorde, etc.
One of the readings in my Women's Studies textbook was by someone named Paula Gunn And she wrote a whole thing, but what's in the textbook is just an excerpt and it's titled, Who is Your Mother? The Red Roots of White Feminism. And in it, she talks about how a lot of the way that feminism has like,
Becky Mollenkamp (47:30.38)
I know that name.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:53.043)
institutionalized feminism, I would say, was birthed and took shape in this country is embedded in this idea of disassociating from the past, detaching from the past. And in a lot of tribal cultures, you don't know who you are unless you are connected to your past, like your history, your lineage is a part of your identity, but so much of our society.
and the way that our culture was built here in the Americas or in the United States specifically is about creating your own identity. And I don't think those two things are like mutually exclusive, right? I think you can create your own identity, but you can't detach that identity from your lineage, from your history. And so she talks about the act of remembering as resistance, the act of remembering as a reclamation of identity and as a way to
create stronger, more rooted identities. And so I think that's just like an important thing to mention because it's not just Black feminist scholars, it's also Indigenous scholars who have been talking about this because they've come from this tribal culture where there is abundance and there is a shared responsibility for everyone's wellbeing.
So yeah, and I can find that article and we can put it in the notes.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:25.868)
Yeah, yeah. she's written, so I noticed she's written quite a few books here that one of them was called The Hoop or something, The Sacred Hoop, Recovering the Feminine in American Indian Traditions. This is in the 80s. And so, yeah, I will link to some of that too. And it just, again, it goes back to what inspired me to start. And I feel like, I hope I'm not alone in having watched some of what Senator Booker did yesterday.
and feeling that like, call to action, the call to pull us out of the despair, which makes me think of the one quote, which he did right around the around 2 30 p.m. Eastern. So that would have been, I don't know, around the 19th hour. If you can look, if you can watch part of it. He was it was so there was so much about lineage that was beautiful. But he also said that fear is a necessary precondition to courage.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:10.388)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (50:22.254)
And then he said, now is the time to get angry, but let that anger fuel you. Now is the time to get scared for what is happening to your neighbors and let that fear bring about your courage. This is the part that made me think of what we were just saying. Now is the time to stare at despair and say, you will not have the last word because I'm going to stand up and give at least one person hope in this country. And that was that, when he was talking about that, like stare at despair, was like, yeah.
I have been sitting in the despair and it's time for me to say to that despair enough. You don't win. You don't get to win. I am going to do something and I'm to let that action, I hope inspire others. So I hope this conversation does a giant thank you to Senator Booker for doing what he did. We need more of that. And I don't just mean from him and other senators, but from us that's also on us. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:56.86)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:15.129)
Yeah, in our own ways we can do that, right? You don't have to have a large following, a large platform to do something that has the same amount of impact as that filibuster. You can do it at a very micro level in your own community.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:31.158)
Yeah. I hope this conversation is part of that, because I know it leaves me feeling inspired and I need more of these conversations. So I need to intentionally make that happen. Right. It's easy to get focused on the despair and to sit in it. And instead, we need to stare at it and say, you don't win. And what do I want and how do I work towards that? So thank you for having this. I was when I sent it to you, I wasn't sure if you'd be like, yeah. And I was like, when you were immediately like, yeah, let's talk about that. was like, perfect. That that's what I need. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:34.641)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:41.147)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:48.913)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:57.873)
Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. And if you're listening or watching and you want to share something that has challenged you to like just step up just a little bit, it doesn't have to be a huge display. You don't have to go love bomb anyone, but share it with us. Send us an email, messyliberation at gmail.com.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:19.212)
or you're watching on YouTube, put it in the comments. I'd love to see some of those comments, not just the ones that people are gonna, yeah, all of us. Somebody just said the other day like, lib, I'm like, and? I guess that's an insult, but okay. So anyway, some nice comments on YouTube would be great too. But thank you, thanks for having this conversation, Tayina. Thanks for being in my flock, and thanks for continuing to help me vision this better future.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:21.083)
Yeah. Instead of the haters.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:38.096)
Yes.
Likewise, likewise.