Fire the Canon

The last 4 books of The Odyssey, as translated by Emily Wilson. Odysseus finally justifies his heroic status, and our podcast finally justifies its existence! It all comes down to this: the final stand-off between our main man and all the hot young guys who want to get with his wife. But also some other things happen after that, which we still have to talk about. It’s a weird, fun time, we swear. Topics include: the incredible stupidity of the suitors, ONE plot hole, ghost gossip, an update on Agamemnon’s marriage, divine amnesia, and the inability to escape oil, even after death.

Content warning: The Odyssey contains discussion of violence, sexual assault, animal sacrifice, and slavery.

Show Notes

The last 4 books of The Odyssey, as translated by Emily Wilson. Odysseus finally justifies his heroic status, and our podcast finally justifies its existence! It all comes down to this: the final stand-off between our main man and all the hot young guys who want to get with his wife. But also some other things happen after that, which we still have to talk about. It’s a weird, fun time, we swear. Topics include: the incredible stupidity of the suitors, ONE plot hole, ghost gossip, an update on Agamemnon’s marriage, divine amnesia, and the inability to escape oil, even after death.

Content warning: The Odyssey contains discussion of violence, sexual assault, animal sacrifice, and slavery.

★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

What is Fire the Canon?

Prefer your books in comedy form, but still want to sound smart at parties? We got you. Discover the hilarity hidden in the classics with new episodes every Thursday.

- Intro music in background -

THEO, introducing episode: “Unwavering Odysseus let out a dreadful ROAR, then crouched and swooped upon them, just like an EAGLE flying from above!

JACKIE: Good!

THEO: Am I getting better at this?

JACKIE: You don't seem like you hate it now.
* Intro music continues, then resolves -
JACKIE: We are back with the actual final episode of the Odyssey. I know we said that last time and it wasn't true, but this time it is the truth, because we are not liars, unlike Odysseus. So.

THEO: The deceitful Fire the Canon podcast. (Rachel and Jackie laugh)

RACHEL: It really is the Odyssey how it's meant to be experienced.

JACKIE, laughing: Yeah. Sit back - sit back and enjoy The Odyssey how Homer himself would have explained it. We're in the homestretch now. Book twenty-one, ‘An Archery Contest’. Guess what happens? Who wins?

RACHEL: No Man. No Man wins. (Theo laughs)

JACKIE, laughing: No Man, yeah. (Theo laughs) All right, so archery contest - they set up the twelve axes, she takes out her husband's bow. This causes her to sob and weep some more. So when she's done crying and messing up her skin, she goes out to meet the suitors. Um… she says, ”All right, look. You guys have been coming here, eating and drinking. You want to marry me, I'm the prize. You shoot through these axes and I'm going to marry you.” (Quickly, as an aside) “Even though I love this home so much and I'll remember it forever even in my dreams.”

RACHEL: You have to string Odysseus's bow, which was, like, it's very difficult to do.

JACKIE: Yeah, you have to be extremely strong like Odysseus.

RACHEL: And you have to have great aim. Telemachus sets it up and then he says, “Let me see - if I can succeed, I won't mind if mom marries someone else, because it will prove that I'm ready to follow in my father's footsteps.” So he tries to do it three times and he fails, and the fourth time Odysseus shakes his head to be like, “Cut it out son, you're embarrassing yourself.” (Jackie laughs) Telemachus says, “Ugh! It seems that I will always be too weak and useless.”

THEO, with mock anger: “This is your fault, mom!”

RACHEL, laughing: Yeah!

JACKIE: And I'm not gonna lie, when Telemachus picked up the bow, I thought he was going to say, “Let me try and I'LL just marry my mom, and then we can stop all this!” (Rachel and Theo laugh)

RACHEL: So Leodes tries to do it. He - they call him the holy man, and it says he was the only one who disapproved of all their bullying.

THEO: Wow.

RACHEL: Yep. So he sounds okay! But yeah, so he fails. Everybody else tries and fails, basically.

JACKIE: Before Antinous tries he says, “Why don't we warm this bow up a little bit, so it'll be a little easier?”

RACHEL: Yeah, grease it a little! Yeah.

JACKIE: Grease it up, and then they do that and it still doesn't work. Odysseus comes and he's like, “You know what, just for shits and giggles, why don't I try it?”

RACHEL: Oh, well, before that he's talking to the swineherd and cowherd and he says, basically, like, “What if Odysseus showed up right now? What would you guys do?”

JACKIE: “What a psychopath!”

RACHEL: Yeah! They say, “We would NOT be on the suitors’ side, we would be on HIS side!” and then he goes, “It's me, I'm Odysseus, I'm back!” And I'm like, why - why didn't he just do that the second he got there? Why didn’t he just say that exact thing to Eumaeus, like, “Hey, what if, what if I was Odysseus, what would you say?”

THEO: He just thought of it!

RACHEL: But so he says, like, “Hey, you're the only good slaves. If you help me out, then I'll give you a wife and some land and a bunch of money and you'll basically be like my sons.”

THEO: You'll have all the pigs you could ever want.

RACHEL, laughing: All the pigs you could want. So yeah. So then he says, he tells them, “Well, I'm gonna go try this.” He says, “The suitors aren't going to want to let me try, so you have to bring the bow to me anyway.”

JACKIE: Yeah, the suitors say, “It's unlikely that, you know, this beggar guy is going to actually marry Penelope, but we would feel really ashamed if someone said, ‘Those men are weak. They court a fighter's wife, but cannot string his bow. Some random beggar has shown up and strung it easily and shot right through all of the axes. They will talk like that and we will be humiliated.’ But he says that TO Penelope! (Theo laughs) I think it's really funny that he's saying it to Penelope, because it's like, this is the one you want to marry, and it's just, like, “You can't let this happen because then... you're not going to want to marry me!”

RACHEL, laughing: Yeah.

JACKIE, laughing: Yeah. (Theo laughs)

RACHEL: Like, “Listen, the reason we can't let this happen…” Eurymachus keeps doing these things where he says the subtext. Like, he just comes out and says the thing that normally people wouldn't say. He also says, when he can't string the bow, he says, “I don't even mind that I don't get to marry her, but the fact that we should be proven so much weaker than King Odysseus that we should fail to string his bow? Our deep humiliation will be known for many years to come!” And then two pages later he's like, “Look. We would be so embarrassed if people said, ‘Yeah, we can't string the bow but this beggar can.’ It's like, why are you admitting this?!

JACKIE: So anyway, of course Odysseus picks up the bow, Zeus made ominous thunder rumble, and he took up an arrow and he shot it through all of the axes, and he was like, “Yep. Still strong.” Aaaand… that’s it.

RACHEL: The thing is, there are holes in the ax heads, so you have to have good aim. It's not about, like, the strength of the pull

JACKIE: Yeah. The strength is just to actually string the bow, right. So immediately we go into book twenty two, ‘Bloodshed’, and we are in the same scene as before -

RACHEL: The BEST thing happens!

JACKIE: He's just shot all of the arrows through, his son strapped on his sword, picked up his spear, they stood together. ‘Bloodshed’. Odysseus rips off his rags, now he's naked. And he says, “PLAYTIME IS OVER!”

(Rachel and Theo laughing hysterically)

RACHEL, dying with laughter: He rips his clothes off, fully nude, holding a bow and arrow, and says, “Playtime is over!”

THEO: … What? (all three laughing)

JACKIE: And then he's like, basically, “I'm going to shoot again and I'm going to hit some other things that nobody's ever hit before, AKA all of your bods!”

RACHEL, laughing: Yeah.

JACKIE: And then he kills Antinous immediately and he just starts shooting everyone!

RACHEL: Well, everybody - after he kills Antinous everyone's like, “Whoa! Like, do you realize you just killed that guy?!” Like, “Quit doing that!”

JACKIE, laughing: He’s saying, “You will join no more games!”

THEO, laughing: “You’re in time out!”

RACHEL: Yeah!

JACKIE: “And the poor fools did not know he had killed Antinous on purpose.” (Rachel and Jackie laughing)

RACHEL: He literally says, “I'm gonna hit something nobody's ever hit before,” turns, and shoots a man straight in the throat. And they're like, “Wow, what a terrible accident!”

JACKIE, crying with laughter: After shooting through all these tiny holes in all these axes they thought it was just an accident. He happened to -

RACHEL: They're like, “This must have been a mistake. Surely no one would kill the hottest guy in Ithaca!”

JACKIE: Yeah, so this is - this is now how he reveals that he is Odysseus.

THEO: And he doesn't look like a beggar anymore, right? Like it, once he takes his -

JACKIE: No, he does.

RACHEL: I think he still does.

JACKIE: Yeah, they haven’t transformed him.

RACHEL: He’s just like, a naked beggar.

THEO: Why does he take his clothes off to reveal his shriveled form? (Rachel laughing)

JACKIE: Well, they’ve all seen him already! They've all seen his muscles when he killed - or, when he beat Irus.

RACHEL: Well, we don’t know if she shriveled him back up. Do you think he kept his buff musculature from the last time?

JACKIE: I think he - I think he had muscles the whole time he just was older-looking.

RACHEL: She pumped him - but she pumped them up -

JACKIE: Oh you're right, you’re right.

RACHEL: - when he’s wrestling the other beggar. It says,like, Athena gave him even bigger muscles. (Theo chuckling)

JACKIE: Well, I kind of doubt he would throw off all of his clothes and say “Playtime is over!” and look like a pile of garbage. (All three laugh) He probably looks pretty good!

RACHEL: What - what a power move, though, seriously.

JACKIE: But what if he did, what if he did and then he was like, “Oh shit!” And then Athena had to, like - “Fix this!” And then he just - “Do-over!”

RACHEL: Be like, “Pump some air in again?” (laughs)

JACKIE: Yeah, yeah.

RACHEL: Yeah.

JACKIE: So he says, “Okay, so you guys thought I wasn't going to come home, so you fleeced my house and you raped my slave girls?” No, that was consensual.

RACHEL: Yeah, and that's very clear.

JACKIE: And he's like, “Now I'm going to kill you.”

RACHEL: And they say, and Eurymachus goes, “Oh, if it's YOU, Odysseus, you're right, we, we did a bad thing, but it was all Antinous's fault and you already killed him, so let us go!”

THEO: And I’m guessing he showed mercy.

RACHEL: He says basically, “You have two options. You can fight, or you can run away, but I'm going to kill you no matter what.”

JACKIE: And then Eurymachus says, “Guys... I think he's gonna kill us. And we should make plans for battle. So go get your swords,” and all this stuff.

RACHEL: Okay, I think that's so funny he, he tells them the plan. He's like, “Okay, everyone get your swords, and then, like, on the count of three we're all going to rush him at the same time and then we're going to run out and call for help.” I'm like, why are you saying your secret plan. Out loud.

JACKIE: And then Odysseus kills him. (Rachel and Jackie laugh)

THEO: W- Yeah, why did he think he had time to say all that, while Odysseus has the bow -

RACHEL: But Odysseus did wait for him to finish his plan, and then he shot him in the liver.

THEO: Oh, that's good! So he knew the plan before he killed him.

RACHEL, laughing: Yeah, yeah.

JACKIE: Then Amphinomous, who is like my favorite guy - you know, the nice suitor? - attacks Odysseus, and he was hoping he could force him to yield his place. I think he wasn't trying to kill him, he was just trying to, like, get everybody else out, and Telemachus rushes in and spears him through from behind.

RACHEL: So basically it's a bloodbath. Melanthius the goatherd, it turns out that he is on the side of the suitors, so he goes and gets their weapons. And here's something funny: they see that some of the suitors have weapons now, and you remember, Telemachus had put that - like, closed them up and then Telemachus is like, “Oh my bad, actually, I forgot to lock the door.” Or, like, “I left the door open,” or something.

JACKIE: Like, the one thing he was supposed to do. He took all of the weapons and hid them, but then just... left the door open!

RACHEL, laughing: Left the door open, yeah.

JACKIE: Yeah.

THEO, laughing: What a terrible story. (Rachel and Jackie laugh) Homer is constantly, like, showing what the characters should have done, and then they just don't do it. It's not even a smart way to keep up the suspense, right?

JACKIE: Right, it's not like, oh, and then there was some kind of magic that happened, or some crazy coincidence. It’s just like... “Oh, Telemachus just forgot to do the thing.”

RACHEL, laughing: Yeah!

JACKIE: So Odysseus then takes time out of all of his shooting and killing to say, “Hey, how about you hog tie Melanthius, and, and hoist him up to the rafters and torture him before he dies?”

RACHEL: Yeah, what a good idea. Oh, here’s something that I think is really funny. So in the back of the book, in the translator’s notes, she has a note for this chapter for the line that was, “There was a back gate in the castle walls providing access to the passageway.” She says, “The exact architectural layout of Odysseus’ palace is difficult to work out from the text. This passage, which has been viewed by some scholars as a later addition to clear up a possible problem with the plot…” (All laugh) So it's like, they're like, “Oh, there is one plot hole, and it's that we don't know how the suitors wouldn't be able to escape from Odysseus' house. That's the only plot hole, let's go in and make one correction. This is the correction. I wasn't explicit enough about the architecture of Odysseus's house.”

JACKIE: So then Athena shows up in the guise of Mentor, her old man disguise, and Odysseus is like, “I bet that's Athena.” DA-DOY. He's like, “Yeah help me.” And she says, “Where is your courage now? You fought nine years on end against the Trojans! You slaughtered all these people!” And she didn't help him, she just kept on testing his courage. And then she turned into a bird and flew away.

RACHEL: She says, “I'm going to help you,” and then it's like - she immediately turned into a bird and the suitors are like, “Oh that old man lied, he's not helping at all.”

JACKIE, interjecting: Yes! She said, “Come now, stand by me and watch how Mentor, son of Alcinous, will treat your enemies as recompense for all your service.” And then she flies away! (Theo laughs)

RACHEL: Yeah, but here's the thing I don't like: throughout the book, there are points where they're like, “Athena made the suitors be bigger assholes than they would have been.”

JACKIE: Right!

RACHEL: So that Odysseus would stay mad. Like, multiple points, it says like, “Athena made them do this bad thing…” It's like, that - so it's not even their fault, really!

JACKIE: Right.

RACHEL: Like, it’s her fault!

JACKIE: Like, she's the one who made them…

RACHEL: Throw stuff, and -

JACKIE: Laugh uncontrollably…

RACHEL: Yes!

JACKIE: Yeah.

RACHEL: But, and also, she wants Odysseus… Every time it seems like maybe he's not going to do something bad, it's like Athena made him angry again. Like she did some magic to make him more mad. Like what?! She's the bad guy!

JACKIE: Right, and it's funny because after she says this big thing about, like, “Watch what I will do for you!”

RACHEL: Yeah.

JACKIE: You know, it says, “She... but she did not grant decisive victory.” She didn't do anything! Like, not only does she not grant victory, she ran away!

RACHEL: But it does say every time people threw spears at Odysseus and his crew. She makes it so spears don't hit you.

She made them, go somewhere else right.

So that is helpful. There's like a long list of who killed, who like a long list of who killed, Yo

yeah long list, he killes someone and them he's like Haha, you loved, insulting us, but now you can't anymore because you're dad.

So there are people on Odysseus’ sides

dot, heard no a cowherd, a pig herd, his son and himself Y,

yes, the original avengers

and then the the only other good suitor leodes, the one who disapproved of the bullying. He says like Hey, I didn't do anything to harm the women here. I tried to stop the suitors from being bad, but they didn't listen to me. I'm a priest. I had good behavior. Can you just not kill me? I really didn't do anything bad and Odysseus says if, as you claim

I'll just set out the back door,

hey there's a plothol that I think you might want to take advantage of,

but no odysseus says Oh yeah. Well, maybe you didn't do anything bad. But if you were here to try to marry my wife, then you must have hoped that my wife would marry you, which means that you were hoping. I was dead so time to die and then kills him.

Not only does he kill him, he to capitate him his head still framing words rolled in the dust yeah,

what an asshole he does spare a poet because the poet literally is like they forced me to sing, tell them to Lemacus Tolymka, says yeah: They forced him to do it. He didn't want to sing and then there's another servant and Telemachus says like this: Guyis also cool, so don't kill him either,

which like. Why do we need this yeah? So then I just esus like okay, I won't kill you guys. You can leave yeah. So then he looks around he's trying to find anybody who might still be alive no one's alive. He calls his old slave woman and says, like hey, tell me which of the women betrayed me and she's like here are twelve who Boul treade you, so he hangs them all in a way that they don't die quickly

at first, he makes all of those girls clean up. All the blood stack, the bodies of the dead suitors,

the guys they've been sleeping of the guys

they've been sleeping with, like makes they said they care. They came out weeping and clutching at each other. They carried out the bodies of the dead, they cleaned his lovely chairs and tables. They sponged the floors. They made everything clean, they took out the trash, they set everything right and then they took them outside

and murder them. He killed all that's so that sucks. That is terrible. We don't need to go into it too much like, but that just is that's terrible. That is so terrible. He's like you don't deserve a clean death, because you like didn't care that much that some guy you've never met before wasn't home

right and then so they take Melanthius Milanthius, the goat herd who who had kicked Odysseus and who he was like. Should I push him down with his ears or whatever he said, O some horrible stuff? They cut off his Tosan ears, yeah they rip away his jentals to feed raw to the dogs and they shopped off his hands and feet, and then they watched their own hands and sat down, and that's that

so book. Twenty three, the Olive Tree bed is literally it's just penelope, like realizing that it's odysseous or admitting that she knows that it's Odysseus.

So she goes back and forth so EUROKLEA. The old sleepe woman is like it's Odysseus. He's here like I felt his scar into him and she's like look. That would be really great Uraquea, but you know we all know. That's not going to happen, you know, Justsea shows up and he tells her he's Odysseus

and he's hot again.

Yeah he's hot again and she's like you are trying to trick me. You're, not Odysseus

and her son is an asshole he's like how dare you, woman he's been wanting to see you for twenty years, and you treat him like this, and I'm thinking excuse me: He's been there for literal days, he's the one treating her badly so he's still testing her, even though, for twenty years she's been pretending to leave and holding off these sutors and he's like, I need to make sure that she's loyal to me but yeah and her son is an assholder. Yet again. I think this is the final time, but I

jes still dressed like a beggar.

No, so he after his bath, he looks like an immortal,

Athena porned beauty on him and he sat down and he said Hey. Why e you being so mean to me: I've been gone for twenty years and penelope is like look. I'm not surprised that you look like this. You look just like you did when you sailed away, but you can go lai on on a different bed.

Yeah she's, like I don't know if you're real or not like a lot of people, might be pretending that they're odysseus. So if you're really Odysseus you'll give me some secret signs and he's like, I see you want some signs like that's when he gets less mad after she says I need some signs.

No no odysseus was furious and told his loyal wife, woman. Your words have cut my heart, who moved my bed. It would be difficult for even a master Kraftsmin. So that's when he talks about the that he said. There's a trick to how it was made. I made it there's an olive tree and I built the room around it and I put the bed together with the tree and Blah Blah Blah and then so at that she realizes it him,

so it would be impossible to move basically

yeah and then she's like. Please don't be mad at me.

No, when she says the thing about secret signs, it's ays hardened odysseus began to smile and he told Telemachusacus you have to let your mom test me to see. If it's me

yeah, then he gets vurious again.

So first he's mad, then he's happy then he's mad, but so they figure it out and then yeah they like go to bed together. Like you know, different things happen, they go to bed and it says after they've had their fill of lovemaking. They took another pleasure which was telling each other stories, so she it's like. She tells him everything that's happened and it's literally like I didn't want to marry these guys and it's like, Oh and then Odysseus tells her everything that's happened and it does a mini like a summary of the entire odyssee and he talks about the two women that he cheated on her with. But it doesn't, I don't know if he how in depth he went.

I was actually waiting for that. So he said he told her how calypso trapped him there and wanted him to be her husband. She took care of him, but she never swayed his heart.

She never swayed his heart.

She swayed his penis, definitely

yeah! That's what I was going to say he didn't say anything about if she swet as pan or not helpig or his elpanor. So that's the end of that. One which should be yes, should be the end of the Odyssey, but should be the end, but then he's like Oh shit, but I killed all these people. So maybe I should like to get down for a while people yeah

s otwenty four is restless spirits, there's a long interlude where Hermes takes all the spirits of the suitors to the underworld, like they all go together in a clump and everyone's like wait, Youre hot young guys. Why are you all dead? What happened

something wrong?

They say what happened to you all. Why Ive youall come down here to the land of darkness? You are all so young and strong. You must have been the best boys in your town. Maybe paseidon raised great waves and winds to wreck your fleet, or were you all attacked by men on land, while you were poaching cows or flocks of sheep or fighting for a city and women

don't way for them to answer just keep Gosi,

it did decideed. Think your ship. Were you stealing, a bunch of things. Is this your yeah? Were you stealing things? Were you attacking a city or were you fighting over where, like we were fighting over women

like actually that was kind of it, O Woman Yeah?

That's so funny like imagining the way they get their news. Is People die and they're just like what's happening up there

yeah like andlike, the gossip thes spreading like hey, did you hear a hundred young hot guys died all at once? I wonder if they R coching cows,

I heard they wer, just proching cals,

going on there. It's like a game of Hade's telephone,

all the story from their own perspective and it actually like its sat. It does sound more sympathetic towards them a little bit like they don't totally lie, but you're kind of like yeah, okay, that yeah. Of course they would do this, so it makes you feel worse for the suitors and then you meet Agamemnon yet again and he has to talk a bunch of Shit about women. He Goes Lucky Odysseus. You've got yourself a wife of Virce, that's funny because after this whole thing where his like, we were all slaughtered, our families don't know like our bodies are still there somebod es to give us a funeral. ACONOMON goes what a great guy

yeah like Oh nes es, is awesome.

justhesawsome for having such a great wife, not like my wife who murdered her own husband.

Go

her story will be hateful. She will bring bad reputation to all other women, even the good ones

he's not over it.

I euaus he's like trying to set up a sequel, er so FERSA. This is his response, his responses, I hate my wife to the seitors to the suitors saying our families at home. Don't know we're dead. They need to wash the black blood from our wounds and weep for us and lay out our bodies, and he goes damn. I really hate my wife

Yeah. I hear what you're saying Odysseus is awesome man, imhawesome,

he's so lucky to have such a wonderful woman in his life, which man that story of how he slaughtered you all systematically was so cool.

I just think it's so funny like every time we see him in this book. We see his spirit what three treeish times and every time he's like. I hate my wife,

but the suitors like their spirits, never come back. So all they say is like this horrible thing, happend to us and he's like I hate my wife and then they don't get to say anything else. Like that's the end, it's like that whole thing was just like a setup so that he agamemnon could come back and shit on his wife again.

Here's the question: Do you think Amphibian and L pener become friends in the underal, so

I hope so, but they're not even allowed to cross the river right. I don't know what's happening because I thought that after you die you drink from the river and you lose your memories of your life when they talk to the spirits earlier. They're like you have to let them drink some blood and then they'll get their memory and be able to talk to you. But these spirits are just hanging out like they're, not drinking blood they're, just there and they're all able to talk and chat

well, there's, probably quite the line at the door to get into hade's. Now that all these people have died at once, so they're, just probably lik behind them processis

waiting, but they talkelong dead. The funny thing when they talk about Achilles, they finally tell Akhilles what happened after he died, which it's weird that he didn't ask them earlier and they say like Oh yeah Achilles after you died, you're so lucky. Unlike me, who was killed by my evil? Wife like you got to die in Battle and Oh they oiled his body. This was the Funny Thing They oiled Akhille's body and then they burned it and then they oiled the bones.

WHOA, so Odysseus runs way. Tohis Dad's house, he goes how about you guys, kill a pig for our dinner. I have to go test my father since I've been gone for

so my old dad who's almost dead,

his old dad who has been laying outside in the dirt miserable because he's so sad about his son.

How did you guys keep reading at this point?

T E Pigmaan earlier said like? Can I tell your dad you're alive because he is refusing to eat or drink because he's so sad and it just eses like no, you can't tell him, and that was like eight books ago

yeah. So now, instead of going and saying Dad, I'm home, I missed you get out of the dirt. He ca

go like old man. You you look pretty attractive. Why are you acting like a slave? You seem more like. Maybe you should be the owner,

what a guy, Oh yeah, his DAD's like! Oh, who are you and he goes I'll, tell you that says: Lying Odysseus replied. I will tell you the truth completely. I will tell you the truth completely and he tells him yet another made up story. He tells him like three generations of his fake family tree yet again

and then layer tease his dad is so sad that he pours two handfuls of ashy dust over his grit head and started sobbing, and so then, after his dad, is so sad that he pours dirt all over his own head and cries Odysseus. Like oh father. It's me I'm sorry.

I wish Ih'd stopped it just one. Second sooner

he said stop crying. I killed a lot of people I have to get out of here.

ECAUS TAT. Please stop crying. We don't have long. I killed so many people. We have to make a plan

yeah and so Larentes is like. I don't believe you show me a one goes well, here's a scar and also, I know what kind of fruit trees those are and there's this many of this WHO's. Many of this and then Laer Tesis, like Oh, my Gosh, oh yeah. He throws his arms around his ruthless son who caught him as he fainted. So he passes out in the arms of his ruthless son.

Why do they have to be ruthless? In that moment

I mean he's ruthless in everyinto now, but why did he need that description?

Maybe drops him, but the book doesn't want to tell us, so it just implies,

and then Athena makes layer, teas really hot and young, and he gets rubbed with oil and more muscular taller and muscular.

He looks like a God and Odysseus, says father, you look different, a God has made you taller and more handsome and he said man. I really wish. I look like this yesterday because I would have brought so many of those suitors down. You would have been delighted, and so they spoke and then they had dinner yeah.

So they sit down and eat together and he meets another old slave and here's the thing Dolius, who is a loyal old slave and has some children who are going to help this scheme Malantho and the other the goat boy whose genitals they ripped off? Those are his children too, so the slave girl that they hung in a terrible way and the slave boy, who I don't know if he's dead or if they'v just mutilated him. Those are dolies is kid.

Well, they cut off his hands and feet, so I'm pretty sure he's dead.

I 'm hoping they killed him before Hou, just bled out or whatever, but like this old man, Dolius is like. Oh my gosh. It's so great to see you like blessings upon you

yeah and then she says: Does Your Wife Know Your home? Should I tell her and he says, don't bother old man. She already knows.

Does this old man know what happened to his kids? What's going to happen when he finds out what happened to his kids but yeah? He never finds out in the book. So we don't know what would have happened what's going to happen with Dolius and his remaining like seven kids or whatever, all the mourners get together and they're like Odysseus, killed all our kids. This really sucks, like he already lost his whole crew of men and now he's come and killed all of our sons and brothers. I made a note in in my notes where I was like this guy is a hundred percent right. You pay these like. All of this is right, Odysseus, sucks. He did get all his men killed and then he murdered all their sons for not good coust,

but then somebody, one of the bards or somebody stands up and is like look guys a God, helped him. I saw a mentor standing there and they all felt like flies, and so then they were all like. Okay, well, that's different, then,

and he says, like we tried to stop you earlier, like we told you to stop your sons from acting stupidly, but you didn't stop them. So you know it's fine, so some of them are like yeah. Let's not do it, but a lot of them agree with you pathes they say. No. We do need to get revenge, so ITHENA talks to Zeus and says: Hey Dad. Can you do something about this and he's like? Well, this was your idea. You wanted this revenge to happen, but yeah sure, let's make them all be friends. So there's gearing up to be this huge battle, Odysseus and his son and some slaves and his dad and his dad slaves they're all about to fight all the suitors family. Athena comes in and says: Hey Stop! This shed no more blood, go your separate ways and they do knowno no right before she said that someone kills you payfes layer. Teas throws his spear and hits you pay thes right in the head and murders him and that's when the Theng, a pops up and his like. Let's stop this bloodshed. Everyone

wish Iad come here one second earlier

the theme of the Book Right before that there's some little banter between layerts, Odysseus and Telemachusachus, where they're like Selemacus your family is well known for being masculine and strong and good fighters. Do you think you can hang and he's like I'm going to kill so many people, it's unbelievable, so they have this little banter about it

yeah. So that happens. He kills you pay thes and then she's, like guys, guys guys stop but Odysseus, let's out a dreadful, roar, swoops upon th, the mourners like an eagle flying from above, but then zoos sent down a thunderbolt and Atheno was like Odysseus. You're really smart find a different solution, stop it, and so he did and that's

yeah, but also when APHENA was in like talking to her dad. He says, let's erase the memory of these boys from their families hearts and minds, and then they won't want revenge anymore. So that's what they end up doing. So she stops the war. She makes them swear oaths of peace. The final line is then Aphena made. The warring sides swear solemn oaths of peace for Future Times. Still in her guise of mentor and that's the end of the Odyssey

Whoa, she erases the memory of the suitors. They just did the like eternal sunshine treatment on the Mall

Yeah. So That's how the story ends

fire it fire it at least Thas. Last Ten boks!

No, it's I like. I think it's so funny. I would give it four stars you know,

but when I'm reading like the back of the book like you know, Emily Wilson's interpretation, the translator. She takes all this so much more seriously than I did so

yeah. The whole til was like these guys are a bunch of Weirdo losers. Why are they yauoing? This?

I mean it really just seems like everyone is like such a dofise like just picturing Odysseus just shoot someone in the throat and then you like turn your back to and you're like Okokay guys. I have a point how we're going to get tobro

like we know. You didn't mean to do that, but

you can't play anymore games because you kill people when you play as

yeah party foul

when he said playtime is over, he must have meant something much more like hearted

I was laughing and laughing. I was laughing so hard. Stevhen came into the room and he was like what- and I said, oh I'm just reading something ause. What are you reading? I'm like the Odyssey and he says Huh, but he didn't. I didn't explain if he had known what was happening. I think he would have understood my laughter, yeah, here's the thing I think she did a great job, translating it I was engaged. I just was like what why the all the fault is on home or not Ebele Wa riaht

right, she might be really mad if she hears as dissing homer yeah to Taera. No, we think he did a great job, but yeah I mean didn't, expect to find the Otocy this funny.

No like there were some really funny movements, okay, guys fheo, Jackie Myself. Are we firing this that cannon or are we holding our fire? I say: hold the fire. I had a great time. I think it should have been tightened up and it was really stupid. A lot of the time like the characters were very stupid, but I enjoyed reading it.

You know, okay, so there's like there's that a men writing women subreadit and I see a lot of people posting on their examples of like unflattering descriptions of women by male authors, but they're, not understanding that it was done. You know like tongue and cheap or like that, that's the protagonist thoughts. It's not the author's thoughts right like you're supposed to make fun of the author. So that's kind of like with this like there's no problem with homers the Odyssey, except for that one uthe door fixd that right, like noits the characters are stupid on purpose.

I think so. Oh I see so he knew their behavior didn't make sense. He was just an unbiased reporter of the fact

and he's like what can I tell you. This is just what happened ying about the CA Lislook I wish I could have headed it down to make more sense cut out. Some of the parts rodises just makes Ip Bullshit. That has no effect on the plot, but this is literally what happened. I can't do anything about it. Thinki like about how stupid it is, is that it really does show you how different ancient Greek culture was like I'm not saying that the things they did in the book are things people did in real life, but I'm saying the fact that this is what people were like

yeah. This is great like this is what a hero does. This is what I like to hear just shows you how different people work right well, and I think the most interesting thing is that the artifice of, like the religion and the God worship is so apparent because you know today we're like you know we are people are you know, we're good people because we're supposed to be, but also because, like God, wants us to be good, but but in the honesty they're just like look, I don't like you and I don't want to give you food, but the gods would be mean to me. If I don't so, I have to be nice to you. They only do things if they think the gods will like it or not right they'll say normally. I would kick you out, but I can't n and then they behave genuinely very nice to this person, but you know that they're only doing it because they feel like they have to. Let me think whath the gods be mad.

If I murdered a hundred people, no noutthen when he goes on to murder their families usis like enough yeah,

all right I'll, let you kill one guy, because that was an accident

yeah, that's crazy! I feel so bad for that guy, maybe it's, although I was going to say, maybe it's better that he died, because he was so sad about his sons, steaf and he had like the best son and all the land or whatever, but they were going to erase his memory of his son anyway, I'm just kind of mad at Atthena about the end that was like she had to just get in one last, really bad action on the final page.

At the end, the only way I yena managed to Getato Eus to stop his murderous rage was to say you're, going to make zoos mad at you again, and you remember what happened last time you made zoos mad right.

You were Waf Yeah N, but he was only mad because Athena asked him to help her out with starring. The battle like he didn't actually care if Odysseus killed more people by anyway. So are you firing the Ganon Jackie,

I'm not going to fire the cannon, but the last ten books? I was not a fan.

You think it needs to be compressed right.

Oh helocompressed yeah.

I think, like. I really don't understand why he didn't expand the middle portion cut out a lot of the beaning cut out a lot at the end

if they could just cut out all the parts where they go into long geneology descriptions that would be enough just cut that

the fake genealogies even yeah, an cut that out. I do think people should read this, but not the whole thing like I think, for a high school student or whatever. I think they should. The teachers should pick some books to assign them to read. Just don't tell them read the whole Odyssey.

Do you think they should know the story? Like that's the important thing, or do you say a hundred percent? Can I just tell you about like Silla, Cryptis and Calipso and all those things or do you need to like read the books that include those things

I wouldn't say. People have to necessarily read the books that include the culturally relevant stuff

and I think the pros is important

yeah. I think they need to read at least one book to kind of get the feel for it, because there's so many repetitive things they're repetitive on purpose, it's interesting rosy finger don and all that I mean it's just nice for people to actually have to read some of what was probably spoken, Poetrys told to crowds, and it's just interesting, but no. I certainly don't think that people should have to read the whole thing like a lot of it. I'm happy that I did every book had a few funny little things yeah, but not enough to make it worth reading for everyone,

and also, I think it was much more fun to like discuss it with other people than to just be like that guys, a Dick like I don't yeah.

What do you think for you and partially basing that on? Just the fact that there are so many references to the Odyssey

yea, most of the reason I think people should read it is because it's so important, but I also think that a lot of these characters has become like an archetype that echoes inside of us like the idea of penelope, weaving and then unweaving every night. It's very resonant. I think so

she's one of the most interesting characters in the Odyssey, and we don't really get the chance to see things from her perspective.

Maybe if we did, we would think she was just as dumb as everyone else.

Maybe so I mean part of the you know, mystery could could be

yea. She has this mystique about her. We don't know if she's an idiot,

it's like that Abraham Lincoln quote better to be silent and be thought an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt.

Here's wit. I think I think I'm just going to say. Revision is important. There is clearly no revision, so I'm firing it

well, no Thati put in a a passage one one passage way: perhaps more extensive revision would have been helpful, should have done another pass.

The O and I were not moved by the dog.

You were moved. You almost cried, don't try to act, tough,

ruthless, Jackie, ruthless, deceitful, Jack, MI, Jacky wine.

Jackie said I will tell you the entire truth and then lied. Okay, Theo. Here's the question: Are you going to read the Odyssey or part of the Odyss, or do you think you got it good enough?

You got a good enough taste.

I kind of just feel. Like I get the

get the Gists,

I get the interesting stuff from it. Yeah like. I, don't think it's really worth reading.

You didn't read it and you're not going to read. I think that means we did a good job, but are you glad that you heard two people dissect it in depth because at this point you've heard like ten hours of talk about the ODYSS?

Well, what would it mean if our own producer was like? I hated this.

This has been a wonderful experience, don't you think listenergs?

No, I'm serious! You can edit it out. If you have a bat, if you don't think it was good

yeah, I don't think I would. I think I know enough about it from you to summrrizing that I don't feel the need to read.

You think it was useful to you to have this knowledge about or enjoyable to have the Odyssey knowledge. Or would you just as well forget all of

I think so. I would also say that I feel like I'm the right audience for this kind of thing, because I love monsters and stuff like that. I'm a little boy art,

so you enjoyed hearing about it because you liked learning about polyphemus all the seals.

Oh, I hated the seal parthere's,

the weird thing it like. I already knew all of that BGUESS. I just liked hearing it again.

Oh good. I guess this is the oral tradition yeah.

Oh, we did it. Okay, so te listen to the podcast at the end of all. Four episodes were like this is why we did then the Odysy, as it was meant to be experience, is three people talking about it.

We should put that in our Taglo, but as a quote, but don't say that one of the hosts,

as it was meant to be experienced as like two people, paraphrasing it and not actually saying it.

Well, he paircrased a lot of stuff too. So Jackie Fou, any final thoughts like how many stars would you give it? I would do four

out of how many

a hundred

of five, no, I would give it for, and I do think people might be mad- that I'm like homer for stars, but that's how I feel I liked it. I really liked it didn't love it

yeah, I'm going to say three and a half, because I sav for for like

or is basically a perfect book.

No five is what what are you talking about?

Four out of five? That's perfect!

The fuck. Are you talking aboutth shut,

talk, less, okay, wait! So three and a half I'm going to give it three and a half.

The thing is I parts of it? are like a two star parts where they kill animals are like Zero Stars: Okay, one star,

but almost none of it was five stars to me

thepart, where he's naked and yelling about how the party's over

plattime is oplaytime that five s the party is beginning.

playtime is over L, peners file, Fer, no haters

five star on that guy love that Guy Nester

Nester, the Lord of horses he's five stars tapart where pollyphemus is like throwing the rocks and it says like and everyone's like Odysseus. Please stop taunting him. Stop!

That's really good!

So the part where he's like, I can't wait to kill these little girls but or a second, the sidepops made me more man, so I should calm down yeah. That's SARS!

Okay, that's outof pages! That's just not enough to bring the upper I for Meside,

for I enjoyed it so much, but thet translation was good too. That's like the room is fthatyo know I mean. If you enjoy the room, you will love the Odyssey. For me, the rating is how much I enjoy it. It's not like writing quality. The thing is, I couldn't judge this on the skill of homer, because I don't have that context if you're talking about just how much you enjoy it and not like the actual, like quality of the writing than how

like what about my immortal, like you enjoyed that

five stars:

Five O Frs to Remdy Braven, once o NAM, Ebony Reveny, and what is it everybod in a Ar Ra, dimention raven way: darkness, Ebony, darkness,

demensior, Raven Way, yeah

yeah, I don't know about the Odysse, but five fucking stars to my inmortal,

we'll get there eventually by the time we I don't know a couple F years, that'll be considered a classic.

No, I really enjoyed this. I think it is like I mean I guess I think it's well written. I love a lot of the language like some of the the turns of phrase and like the Rosy Finger Don vlah Blah Blah. I think a lot of that is great, but I'm just saying because I'm not an ancient Greek. I couldn't really tell you if homer like you, just can't compare it to to things that are written now. Really: okay, Theo. You got any thoughts, what's your star rating

yeah, let's make it a tradition that the producer doesn't rate it, but I do get to decide if it gets fired.

o Wai are you did you fire er?

He already fired it yeah,

so youare firing it and Jackie. I are not.

I guesss. I just have the benefit of perspective. I didn't read it so I was a little further away

so firing. It means you think that it should not be part of the western Ti.

I guess so, okay, so it gets at two out of three. I guess for our Cannon System:

Iin Music. We have like the cannon and then we have the repertor so like there are pieces that don't get played that often but they're still like considered part of the Can

yeah. This should be a neither the REPATIR norther cannon. It sounds like well, I would say this should probably be in the cannon, but not the river.

Your get your hair is getting more dishevele.

This he's dressed because we ask for his opinion because he already fired it, even though he didn't read it. So, actually, I do think a cannon repertoire distinction might be useful and in which case I would agree because, like I was saying to Jackie, I don't think everyone needs to read it, but I do think everyone should have some familiarity with it.

This is unfortunate because I thought the Stanza, where thoe slave girls are killed, was actually like very beautiful, like it's horrible. What happened to them, but so he says at that. He wound a piece of sailor's rope round the Rotunda and round the mighty pillar stretched up so high. No foot could touch the ground as dumbs or thrushes spread their wings to fly home to their nest, but someone sets a trap they crash into in it a bitter bedtime. I thought that was very beautiful,

Emily Wilson, five stars. She did a great job, exaclating it and the Poetris is also good. She, which is in like it's impressive for someone to be able to produce good poetry and translation, because I mean a lot of this

again. No Fault of emilies is not really a not what we think of his poetry anyway. It's you know just narrative. Also, a lot of the characters are not what we think of US heroes.

Just sell. Pener Yeah I'v Watch a show like a spinoff about him, so nobody needs to read this because we already vet it for you. So you're welcome yeah, you're good. If you listen to all these episodes, you'll know enough to speak about it intelligently as though you have read it so everyone, our next mini series, is going to be about Beaowolf, we're probably going to do two episodes for the first one. We will be reading the JRR tolken translation, which is very traditional kind of like a touchstone in terms of bawolf translations. For the second episode, we will be reading a new translation by Maria Divana Hedley and that one is very nontraditional. We will also be having a special guest on to kind of discuss the idea of a western Canon in general. That special guess is my high school English teacher, Mr Robinson, who I read Baywolf with for the first time in AP English yeah. I'm kind of worried that he's going to say like call me Brad and I'll have to call him Brad

whate of Hou, says yeah. Call Me Wy. My friends call me Braybray

Great Brayand, then we'll have to call him Brak Brea.

Well, maybe you guys will call m that my guess is that I'll just avoid calling him anything

it'sjust like hey. This is let's get started.

Yeah yeahm yeah might sit that one out

a you have to be there you're the producer

and the producer.

We have to think no and here's the part where we thank our listener. Thanks. No an so