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Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
00:00:07:13 - 00:00:31:02
Andreas
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. Welcome to another episode of Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on leaders of businesses that people love to work for. My name is Andreas Konstantinou. I'm a micromanager turned servant leader who developed a passion for workplace culture. Our latest project is the Cultural Health Check, an online service that lets you measure your culture so you can manage it.
00:00:31:04 - 00:00:58:17
Andreas
Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Seth Casden. Seth, I first met on LinkedIn, and we connected just recently. He's the CEO and founder of Hologenix, a material science company behind CELLIANT. And CELLIANT is an infrared technology that can be used with any textiles and that miraculously improves local circulation with proven benefits in performance, recovery and restful sleep.
00:00:58:17 - 00:01:19:00
Andreas
I own a pair of clothes for that, and it actually works. It's also proven by science. And, Seth is going to tell us more about that. And in 2021, Hologenix was named in the top Inc. 5000 of the fastest growing companies in the US for a third year in a row.
00:01:19:00 - 00:01:45:02
Andreas
Seth also has a background in private equity. And he tells me, actually, I'm not going to tell you the first fun fact because it's going to spoil, what's coming up. But I'm going to tell you that he's currently reliving his childhood with his ten year old son, including mountaineering, and he has summited two of the top 7 or 2 of the tallest seven mountains in the world.
00:01:45:04 - 00:01:49:16
Andreas
So with all of that, very welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast, Seth.
00:01:50:17 - 00:01:55:19
Seth
Thank you, Andreas. It's a pleasure to be here and be with your guests. And thank you for having me.
00:01:56:23 - 00:02:26:08
Andreas
So, before we start, tell us a little bit about the company, because, firstly, it's a technology in textile and has proven health benefits, as far as I understand. I've been following you for a while. As I said, I've also bought a pair of clothes, and I, I'm really amazed that, you know, you can actually build such technology with health benefits today. So tell us a little more.
00:02:27:14 - 00:02:59:17
Seth
Absolutely. Thank you. When I first heard about harnessing the powers of infrared, I was somewhat skeptical of how you would do that through clothing, textiles. I was familiar with and am familiar with infrared saunas and I understand that. But the idea of harnessing that was really fascinating to me. And so what we've developed is a process to put thermo-reactive or infrared emitting minerals inside textiles.
00:02:59:17 - 00:03:35:18
Seth
And kind of a fun fact for those of you that don't know about polyester and nylon and Lycra, they start out as a liquid. And so we add these minerals in at the liquid stage. And then when the fabric, the yarn, is extruded becomes permanent. And once you are either wearing like the shirt I have on or you're sleeping on sheets that have CELLIANT integrated, the heat from your body is absorbed by the minerals, and infrared is given back to the body and that has a whole host of health benefits.
00:03:35:19 - 00:03:59:13
Seth
Like you mentioned, it really helps with thermoregulation, helping our body maintain optimum temperature and helps with muscle performance, muscle recovery, and to help promote restful sleep. So we've been on this journey, as you said, we have ten published studies and it's been really fascinating to bring this technology to market and help so many people.
00:03:59:22 - 00:04:16:09
Andreas
And I've read you've been on this journey for about 20 years now, right? And before that, you had three failed startups. So how was that journey? And how did it prepare you for the 20-year journey that you're on now?
00:04:18:04 - 00:04:46:07
Seth
Well, as you mentioned, I started out in finance and private equity, and I quickly realized that, well, I have a love for numbers. I really enjoy working with small teams and having passion projects, and, I, after a few years, really went out to figure out what that look like. And to me, the opportunity in the business was almost kind of secondary to building that team, building that culture.
00:04:46:07 - 00:05:06:17
Seth
One of the things I really like about, you know, learning about you and meeting you is this focus on emphasis on the people you're working with and the culture. Because that, to me, is much more important than the widget or what you're doing as in terms of a product. Because if you're not happy and you're not enjoying your environment, it's going to be hard to feel fulfilled.
00:05:06:18 - 00:05:39:04
Seth
So, I tried a few different things and they didn't work out. And I think that really helped build my resilience and help teach me that maybe the world judges successes and failures based on outcome. But it helped me create a deeper meaning for myself of what actually success looks like. And for me, it's, you know, really following my beliefs and having that clarity and focus and passion.
00:05:39:04 - 00:06:01:20
Seth
So by the time I got to Hologenix, it wasn't really anything I could do except jump in full, full both feet and, just be committed to the process without looking at the short term results. You know, week to week, month to month, year to year. And lo and behold, it's been 20 years now.
00:06:02:01 - 00:06:05:04
Andreas
What was the hardest part of the journey?
00:06:05:16 - 00:06:29:20
Seth
I think that the hardest part has been, you know, the skepticism, the doubt. If I told you I was making televisions, you know, you'd say, okay, and you'd know what I'm doing. When you're building a company, you already don't know if it's going to work or not. And then when you add in another layer of skepticism around what the product itself is, infrared is not visible to the naked eye.
00:06:29:22 - 00:07:05:16
Seth
So I think dealing with a lot of skeptics was probably the most challenging part, you know, I had a lot of friends and family telling me, you know, not to do this, that it's just not going to work, that people don't understand it. It's too complicated. But at the end of the day, I felt like, you know, and it's been clear to me that once people understand the benefits and how it works, it really becomes a key and, you know, I believe necessary part of supporting our health and wellness.
00:07:06:17 - 00:07:11:08
Andreas
So how did you defend your team against the naysayers at that time?
00:07:11:08 - 00:07:37:18
Seth
That's a great question, Andreas. We've had some pretty forceful skeptics over the years and some people that just aren't really looking to be reasonable. And with this technology, I think, sometimes people feel insulted, like it can't be that simple. It can't do what you're saying, and it makes for a really strong reaction.
00:07:37:20 - 00:08:03:00
Seth
So I've had some meetings where basically just been laughed out of the meeting or made fun of. I've had people sort of be dismissive and throw sample products back at us across the table and it's easy to get discouraged with those kinds of interactions. And so, for me, when I lean into it, it's just the confidence that we know what we're doing and we know that it works.
00:08:03:00 - 00:08:35:13
Seth
We've seen it. We have personal experiences using it. And it's a great lesson for not taking things in. Right? You can be out in the rain getting wet, but you're not the rain. So, you know, that's their opinion, that's their experience. And we just, you know, I encourage my team to never take anything personally and to just move on and understand that that person's not a good fit or that company's not a good fit.
00:08:35:21 - 00:08:41:04
Andreas
So, zooming out on culture.
00:08:41:04 - 00:08:49:20
Andreas
Have you found your leadership style? Was it an evolution, or was it a eureka moment? And how did it happen?
00:08:51:07 - 00:09:19:12
Seth
Well, I'm a recovering micromanager as well. And, I, it was an evolution. I don't know that there's like one single incident, but I certainly have had the whole spectrum of trying to control everything, read every email, proof-check everything, have every decision run by me, to where I am now, which is hopefully, you know, really far on the other side of that spectrum.
00:09:19:12 - 00:09:39:08
Seth
And, you know, my job as a leader is to clear the path, get out of the way, make sure my team has the tools that they need. Trust them. I try very hard never to veto or overrule, you know, a team decision. I think it's so important that you have the buy-in in advance.
00:09:39:10 - 00:10:03:13
Seth
You know, in the past, if I had a consultant or somebody I wanted to engage with, I would hire them. And then be all excited and introduce them to the team. And then the team would feel left out in the decision and they wouldn't really understand why, or I didn't do a good job of articulating it. And now, you know, if there's somebody that we want to work with, I have the leadership of the company vet that, consider alternatives.
00:10:03:13 - 00:10:29:22
Seth
We really try and have at least one person that's a counterpoint, sort of, you know, playing the advocate of the other side. And I think that's really served us well, and it's certainly helped me lead with more grace and compassion. A lot of times in my early, you know, career, there's a lot of confrontation.
00:10:30:00 - 00:10:56:21
Seth
There's a lot of, you know, yelling, there's a lot of anger because you want things done a certain way, the right way, the first time. And life is just never that clean. And so as I grew as a person, I realized that wasn't helping me or my team or just my quality of life. And so the more accepting and understanding I can be of the things I can't control, and just help direct and guide and, you know, recalibrate where necessary.
00:10:56:21 - 00:11:17:17
Seth
It just provides a much more rewarding experience for me and for the team. And I continue to see how I can evolve. This idea of servant leadership to me is really profound. And really, when you understand it I think it's the only way to lead.
00:11:19:16 - 00:11:28:13
Andreas
Do you let go of most decisions? Or is there some decisions that you'd like to have a veto on? You'd like to get your hands dirty with?
00:11:31:13 - 00:11:32:13
Seth
I...
00:11:34:09 - 00:12:04:14
Seth
There's certain decisions that I feel it's very important that I have an alignment. And so, I'll work with the team, whether it's like, what's the next position we're hiring or, you know, where are we going to allocate? You know, how much are we going to allocate to R&D or clinical studies? And we may have some gaps when we initially discuss, and then I'll work however many rounds it takes to get, you know, to close that gap.
00:12:04:16 - 00:12:35:04
Seth
And then ultimately, if there's just a strong difference of opinion and we have to go in a direction that's different than what maybe somebody else is asking for, there should be or there is a mutual respect at that point where we've articulated each other, we heard each other. I think so many times the conflict is not a result of the decision that was taken, but a lack of feeling that they were heard, that the person was acknowledged, that they have value in what they think.
00:12:35:06 - 00:12:54:06
Seth
Because that is where people begin to check out, you know, oh, they don't care what I have to say. They're not listening to me. My opinion doesn't value, you know, isn't valued. You can have decisions that are different than what somebody else might do, but still have a culture where people feel heard and valued.
00:12:54:06 - 00:13:11:04
Seth
And that's going to... they're going to be able to follow that decision, even if it's not the one that they would have made. But if you don't have that foundation, then people will just start going their own way and, you know, you'll have high turnover at your company and you'll be constantly trying to find someone that fits.
00:13:12:12 - 00:13:19:23
Andreas
How would one of your employees describe the culture today? What would you say? What would you guess?
00:13:21:08 - 00:13:45:17
Seth
I would say that we try and have a really good work-life integration. It's not always balanced, but it's certainly integrated, you know, we have a weekly team call, and the focus of the call is just to catch up. We don't talk about work. We ask an icebreaker, you know, we ask a question to learn about the team, to learn about each other.
00:13:45:17 - 00:14:14:03
Seth
We share about what we did over the weekend. You know, we're very flexible when people need mental health days or need time off or need to be with family, for school events or life events, and I think, you know, my employees would say that they really appreciate the ability to work from home, you know, we're pretty flexible in terms of how much time we're in the office versus when we're at home.
00:14:14:05 - 00:14:26:02
Seth
And, you know, I think more than anything, my team enjoys the jobs that they're doing, and they feel like they're part of something that's really incredible.
00:14:27:19 - 00:14:33:10
Andreas
And is culture a work in progress? Or have you gotten to where you want to get to?
00:14:35:11 - 00:15:02:10
Seth
I think it's a journey without a destination. There's always going to be some obstacles in the road, and you're going to have to be prepared to deal with those in a healthy, responsible way. And the experience can inform, you know, past experience can inform how you handle those. I do think that there's a certain destination that you can reach in terms of, you know, we have great benefits.
00:15:02:10 - 00:15:35:16
Seth
We have, you know, paternity leave as well as maternity leave. We, you know, we give a couple of weeks off around the US holiday, July 4th and between Christmas and New Year's, in addition to everyone's vacation time. So, you know, those sort of things, you can check the boxes and that's done and set and then, you know, the culture and the mindset is one that just constantly, I think is, you know, reborn every day.
00:15:35:16 - 00:15:41:07
Seth
And just you have to look at it with fresh, with a fresh perspective, each and every day.
00:15:42:23 - 00:15:57:00
Andreas
Besides the company culture, what is success for you? When like... Have you got to where you think success is? Are you aspiring to get to and where's that place?
00:15:57:11 - 00:16:18:11
Seth
You know, success has so many different definitions. You know, one of my favorite is freedom of time and freedom to be able to invest your time in things of your choosing. And certainly I'm not at a place where I can always do that. But at the same time, I'm very grateful for the work I do have.
00:16:18:11 - 00:16:41:21
Seth
There's also a measure of success in terms of awareness around our technology or infrared in general. I think there's a long way to go there. You know, Bill Gates, I think is known for saying you want to put a computer in every home. You know, we want a pair of infrared socks on every foot, you know, so that everybody has that experience.
00:16:41:23 - 00:17:10:00
Seth
And, certainly by that measure, you know, we have, billions to go. So, you know, for me, the day-to-day success is having a team that's engaged and excited about their work and, you know, there's the ups and downs and the rhythms of life. But I think for the most part, you know, all those things taken into account, we built a very successful company.
00:17:11:22 - 00:17:29:18
Andreas
So if we zoom out of the company and focus on you, Seth, we talked in the pre-show about this game of two truths and one lie, and I think you have two truths and one lie in no particular order, so we can get to know you a little better. So do tell us.
00:17:30:17 - 00:18:05:04
Seth
Sure. It's always a fun game to play. So two truths and a lie with... two truths and a lie. So we'll put the lie in there somewhere. Either first, middle or last. So, I have never eaten meat intentionally. I was born into a vegetarian family, and I've never, I've never chosen to eat meat.
00:18:05:06 - 00:18:31:08
Seth
Obviously, there's times where, you know, mistakes get made at restaurants and you might have something by accident. I'm very allergic to bees and got stung by a bee and almost died when I was 11 and had to be... I was out on a farm and had to be rushed to a hospital.
00:18:31:08 - 00:18:49:11
Seth
And, I swollen shut. And I've had over 80 rounds of investments in Hologenix, over the... over those 20 years.
00:18:51:10 - 00:18:57:19
Andreas
So... So we did talk about this before. So I know a little bit more than our audience knows. So which is the lie?
00:19:00:01 - 00:19:24:03
Seth
Well, I might have given too much detail on the bee because that obviously happened. And I... we have had over 80 rounds of investments in Hologenix, and I actually was born into a vegetarian home, but I have tried meat, of my own volition, at several different times. So that's the one that's not true.
00:19:25:03 - 00:19:46:14
Andreas
But still you were born a vegetarian. You're still, you know, 99.9% vegetarian. Okay. So, who was...? Was there a person, actually, who was influential in your early life and led you to who you became today?
00:19:48:06 - 00:20:12:17
Seth
Yes, when I was in high school, they offered Latin and one of my... my best friend, his older brother was a few years ahead of us when we were in junior high, and he was taking Latin and I, you know, I always thought that was so ridiculous because Latin is a dead language. But we started hearing these stories about this teacher, and there was so much more.
00:20:12:17 - 00:20:35:02
Seth
And then as I was studying for the SAT exams, you learn that so many words have a Latin root, and so I realized that there might be some value. So I signed up for this Latin class, and I ended up taking three years of Latin in high school and the teacher, William Levy, was such a phenomenal influence in my life.
00:20:35:07 - 00:21:07:12
Seth
And, really, mentored me in a time that I was pretty rudderless and really struggling at that age, as so many people do. And so, having his wisdom and his perspective on life, a lot of the time, classes would just evolve to a conversation about something new or something we didn't know or something going on in the world.
00:21:07:13 - 00:21:38:13
Seth
Doctor Levy, as he was known to his students, had such a gift with language and would write unsolicited letters to people and get responses. And so he became personal friends with Eleanor Roosevelt, with T.S. Eliot, with Frank Zappa. And so he would have these stories, he met Salvador Dali, and, you know, this one's from another time.
00:21:38:13 - 00:22:03:10
Seth
He was also a Bronze Star recipient. And then as I learned more about him, I learned that he was adopted. And there's just so much wisdom that he had from his life experiences, that I stayed in contact with him, you know, after high school and really built up a great friendship.
00:22:03:10 - 00:22:25:23
Seth
And it was actually with him that I tried a Scottish hare at a restaurant because we would go out to dinner, and he was such a foodie. He was, come on, Seth, you need to try something new. And so I said, okay, Dr. Levy. But yeah, he... I think of him still almost daily, in one fashion or another.
00:22:27:14 - 00:22:42:16
Andreas
And then you also mentioned to me in the pre-show about living in a country. You lived in a country where you didn't know a word of the language. And that was pretty scary, I guess, to start with, right? But I'm sure pretty impactful.
00:22:43:20 - 00:23:09:02
Seth
Yes, I definitely have the travel bug. I love to travel. And after I left private equity, I wasn't really sure exactly what I was going to do. I moved to Argentina. Just by myself and just started from scratch. I wanted to see kind of what it was like to parachute out somewhere in a strange land where I didn't know anyone.
00:23:09:02 - 00:23:58:03
Seth
And just kind of start over. And that process of just making sure you have somewhere to live and learning how to order food, it really sort of simplifies everything. And you start to understand what's important in life. And I suppose, more importantly, what's not important. And I think a lot of times in the culture at least that I've grown up in, in Los Angeles, you see so many confrontations and so much frustration and when you really gain an understanding and appreciation and a sense of gratitude, a lot of these sort of things look so much more trivial, and you just don't engage with them, and it really frees your mind up to just be happy.
00:23:58:03 - 00:24:18:17
Seth
And, you know, one of the things that I've learned is that we react to our environment and because of some perceived slight or frustration or something's wrong. But in that reaction, we're sacrificing our peace of mind, our happiness, our tranquility. And so for me, like, I really don't want to let go of that.
00:24:18:17 - 00:24:30:09
Seth
You have to really try hard to get me in a place where I want to sacrifice my tranquility and my happiness because of something outside of my control.
00:24:32:03 - 00:24:41:06
Andreas
How do you distinguish between when you are avoiding conflict and when you're simply de-prioritizing something that is not important to you?
00:24:43:04 - 00:25:07:19
Seth
That's such a great question. And I don't know that I have full mastery over that. I think one of the best indicators for me is, is there a fear there? Is there a fear of confrontation? Is there a fear of the answer or a fear of rejection? If I start rationalizing and I start justifying, then that's a really good indication that I need to face this.
00:25:07:21 - 00:25:40:23
Seth
If I'm really clear that it's not a priority or that it's not going to be a good use of my time, it's not... it's just going to lead to more frustration then I feel much better about saying, okay, like, we can revisit this later. But I think sometimes I actually can lean into that too much because, like, with my team members, you know, sometimes I'll say, you know, if I hear somebody say like, no, they don't want to do it, then that's usually a sign like, okay, we need to do it.
00:25:40:23 - 00:26:01:14
Seth
Like, you know, that's... and that can be a little jarring for people that aren't really, have a lot of practice and a lot of reps in doing that. So I try and back off, if I'm hearing like, this is just too, too much change or too much of a challenge with everything else we have going on at any given moment.
00:26:01:16 - 00:26:20:12
Seth
But it really comes down to, I think, understanding the fear. And if it's just a fear of the interaction or the fear of the unknown, then that needs to stay a priority. And if it's more about the outcome or the objective, then I can safely kind of de-prioritize that.
00:26:21:10 - 00:26:23:02
Andreas
Was there a point in your
00:26:23:02 - 00:26:28:04
Andreas
personal leadership journey, like your personal self-awareness,
00:26:28:04 - 00:26:45:17
Andreas
which was an inflection point? Which maybe was something you regretted or something you turned back on or something you realized that I need to change my ways?
00:26:46:07 - 00:27:06:01
Seth
Yeah. There's been a few different things. Either things I've done or things that have happened to me. You know, when you work in large companies, you see the culture that can be hazing of interns or sort of this pecking order. And, you know, if you're new to the team, you're not supposed to talk. And you know, you like...
00:27:06:02 - 00:27:32:03
Seth
And I've really tried to create something very different from that. And I've seen in myself, you know, part of that transition from being a micromanager to servant leadership, you know, I've heard some people with my aggressiveness with my sort of like, why did you do it this way? You know, you don't know what you're doing.
00:27:32:03 - 00:27:59:07
Seth
You know, how... Then it becomes like, it quickly becomes a personal attack instead of just about the job performance. And so, over the course of my career, you know, there's been employees that have moved on because of that type of style. And I've worked in environments where I was subjected to that. And then at some point it just kind of clicked, and I just took a deep breath and stepped back and said, okay, like, that's not who I am.
00:27:59:08 - 00:28:21:11
Seth
That's really just me trying to do what I think a CEO is supposed to do. And then the more I could listen and realize it's just kind of a myth, it's something from a different era. And what we really need is that personal sense of value, validation on our own from our loved ones or significant partners or coworkers.
00:28:21:13 - 00:28:27:00
Seth
And that can only come through understanding and grace and empowerment.
00:28:29:03 - 00:28:40:06
Andreas
So now that you have a soon to be a ten-year-old son, which of these values are so important to you that you like to pass on?
00:28:41:10 - 00:29:04:11
Seth
Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, of course, you hope that your son or your daughter, your child, is going to have these great virtues. And, you know, one of the things that kids are so great at is showing you all your weaknesses. Right? And it's such a mirror back to you. And it's been a really incredible journey.
00:29:04:11 - 00:29:32:07
Seth
And if you're open to that self-reflection, it can... you can have some really profound opportunities for growth. And I certainly feel in the last few years, as my son has grown, it's really taught me so much. And, you know, for him, I... The foundation I feel is really in truth and whatever, you know, his relationship with truth for him is to create empathy and compassion.
00:29:32:08 - 00:29:58:01
Seth
You want to have a certain unconditional quality of love, I think is so important in the family unit. Because you want a safe place. And, you know, I grew up where it was sort of wrong for parents to be friends with their kids. That was, like, considered, you know, a bar you don't cross.
00:29:58:03 - 00:30:24:07
Seth
And then as a result of that, I wasn't comfortable sharing things I was struggling with. Or if I tried to it just... it never... there wasn't a safe place for that. So what I've done for my son is try and create an environment where he can come and talk to me and tell me the things he's struggling with, and there isn't going to be a cycle of shame or guilt or admonishment, but it's going to be like, okay, well, how do we want to do this next time?
00:30:24:07 - 00:30:52:10
Seth
Or what are we going to do to make this better? And so, I think that really fosters a lot of confidence and a sense of self agency. For him to make his own choices and his own decisions and, you know, in that same vein, I've tried to steer away from giving advice and really have more of a path of asking questions and allowing him to discover for himself what the right answer is.
00:30:52:12 - 00:31:13:22
Seth
And, you know, someone much smarter than me said once, whatever you do is the right thing. You know, there is no mistake. If you made that decision and it didn't work out the way that you thought or you wanted, you'll learn from that. And if it does work out, then that was and that kind of freedom to just be yourself and go out in the world.
00:31:13:22 - 00:31:38:07
Seth
I think it's so important, and to have a safe space for creativity to grow and thrive. And to be able to understand, you know, where the line is, you have to go over it. You know, so he's always cracking jokes, and I'm like, okay, that was funny. That was not. You know, but you have to kind of understand where that is.
00:31:38:07 - 00:31:47:05
Seth
So, you know, at the end of the day, I just want him to be authentic for himself and to honor and love that version of him.
00:31:48:21 - 00:32:21:16
Andreas
Yeah. I can resonate with that. My vision for my role for my kids is to help them find their passions. And something I was... I remembered this today, in an earlier workshop, one of the really universal values I subscribe to, and I heard this from Warren Rustand is, loving to love, loving to live, loving to learn and loving to serve.
00:32:21:18 - 00:32:59:15
Andreas
So, all ways in which, you know, very simple ways that we can be better people for us and for others. And talking about helping others, we talked in a few instances about the culture at Hologenix. And you're very intentional about that culture now. How would you or what would you whisper to the ear of someone who's not intentional about their culture? How would you say they need to rethink the culture?
00:33:02:18 - 00:33:30:04
Seth
I would probably direct them to become more self-aware of how they're spending their time. And what I learned about myself was, if I'm trying to follow everything and, you know, we use that word micromanage. But it's more than just that. It's a whole mindset. And it's that, you know, the right, I know the right way to do it.
00:33:30:04 - 00:33:55:10
Seth
And there's really only this way to do it. And so I'd be whispering in their ear like, your time is the most valuable resource. And if you're spending your time, yes, maybe you have a better way or... but what is it that you're, what you're evaluating? Is that the wording in an email? Is it a different way of, you know, organizing the kitchen supplies? Like, is it really the best use of your time?
00:33:55:10 - 00:34:21:16
Seth
And being open to that expression, there's a lot of ways to skin a cat. I mean, I've learned that not only are there, you know, other ways to do things, but some of those ways are better than the ways that I was doing them. And, you know, you can't learn when you're talking. Right? That saying and, you're not going to learn new ways to do things if you're constantly trying to teach people your way.
00:34:21:18 - 00:34:36:16
Seth
So, I think the first step is just really doing a fearless inventory of how you're spending your time and what the dialogues are. And is that really serving the purpose and the vision of the company?
00:34:38:07 - 00:34:52:09
Andreas
How or what would you like to leave us with? Could it be a good book recommendation? Could be something you watched recently. Could you... could be some parting thoughts.
00:34:54:00 - 00:34:55:13
Andreas
What would you like to leave us with?
00:34:58:14 - 00:35:29:15
Seth
One of the things that I've been working on very diligently, and I just, I've seen so much value for me and it's one of the hardest things, is listening and learning how to... I saw a model, basically, about three stages of listening. And now the first stage is you're almost not listening because you have your response, your rebuttal.
00:35:29:17 - 00:35:51:09
Seth
And you're trying to wait to say what you want to say. And then there's another stage where you're at least quiet and you're sitting there. But then there's this sort of deeper active listening where you're able to block out your own thoughts and you're just actually listening to the person talking.
00:35:51:09 - 00:36:14:01
Seth
And when I've met people that can do that, the feeling that I get of being listened to at that level, it's such an incredible gift to give someone, because there's so few of us that can, that can actually do that. And so, I've really dedicated myself, I still interrupt way too much, you know, I'm still trying to remember.
00:36:14:03 - 00:36:37:20
Seth
And there's nothing worse than, like, you get in an argument or you have a debade, and then, you know, that night you're in bed, you're all, I should have said this, but I forgot to say that, and I had all these points. And then that kind of trains you to not think and to not listen correctly because you... And so at the end of the day, being able to really hold space for someone, I think, is such a precious gift.
00:36:39:21 - 00:36:42:05
Andreas
And where can people find out more about you, Seth?
00:36:44:03 - 00:36:56:15
Seth
I'm on LinkedIn, Seth Casden and CELLIANT, our company, celliant.com, C E L L I A N T dot com. And would love to hear from your audience and your listeners.
00:36:58:01 - 00:37:31:04
Andreas
Seth, thank you for sharing your story and your defiant entrepreneurial journey against all odds. 20 years to take a technology to success. Actually, one of the things we didn't mention, you have a lot of brand name customers now, including Under Armour that you're wearing. But, yeah, it's a very long journey and it takes a heck of a lot of perseverance and stamina and leadership to go through that.
00:37:31:06 - 00:37:57:21
Andreas
So thank you for sharing that. And to all our listeners, thank you for listening to this episode of Rethink Culture. If you enjoyed the episode as much as I did creating it, then you can leave a five star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. And while you're there, you can also subscribe to the channel so you never miss a future episode.
00:37:57:22 - 00:38:33:02
Andreas
It helps me, it helps the show, and it helps everyone else learn from the cultural visionaries like Seth that I host every couple of weeks. And if you prefer to host and not... sorry, to watch and not just listen, then do subscribe to YouTube and you can see us live there. And finally, if you want to find out more about how you can measure your culture so you can manage it, you can go to rethinkculture.co. And as I like to say, keep on leading and creating happier and healthier workplaces for you and those around you.