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Every day, we at Hutchison PLLC work with founders and entrepreneurs as they fight and grind and stress and push to bring their visions to reality. We are inspired by their incredible stories of success, of failure, of reworking and trying again.
Runbin Dong: [00:00:00] The nature of authenticity, as long as the product is authentic, it actually doesn't matter as much if it's put on a beach side or on some right. AI generated environment, right? But again, when it comes back to experiences. It actually does feel a bit off, I think, as consumers. Mm-hmm. If you realize that, that the experience you're portraying right is not real.
Trevor Schmidt: Hello and welcome to the Founder Shares podcast. We're so happy that you've chosen to spend some time with us. I'm your host, Trevor Schmidt. I'm an attorney at Hutchinson, a law firm in Raleigh, North Carolina. We work with founders and entrepreneurs in technology and life science companies, start up, operate, get funded, and exit.
We are daily inspired by the people we work with and want a chance to share some of these stories with you, our listener. So whether you're already an entrepreneur, want to be one someday, or are just fascinated by the stories of [00:01:00] how a business goes from idea to success or not such a success. This podcast is for you.
Today's guest is Runbin Dong, founder and CEO of Scale Social AI, A company helping small and medium sized businesses turn their most loyal customers into their biggest marketing asset. Inspired by his own experience as a small business owner, runin built Scale Social AI to help brands transform real customer experiences into authentic, scalable marketing content.
On today's episode, runin shares how his journey from corporate tech to small business ownership led him to identify a major gap in digital marketing. He discusses the challenges small businesses face in standing out online. The role AI plays in making marketing more efficient and why authenticity is a key to building strong customer relationships.
Runbin also breaks down the early lessons of launching scale, social ai, the pitfalls of over automating marketing and how his company is helping businesses grow through real customer engagement.
Runbin Dong: We started the company to solve a [00:02:00] singular problem to help small business owners really stand out in this very noisy digital world.
And this is typically done through the lens of marketing.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm. But
Runbin Dong: the way we are very different from most of the marketing initiatives is we allow these businesses, most loyal customers to market on their behalf.
Trevor Schmidt: So it sounds like you're focused on small businesses. What, what's the draw to the small business?
Runbin Dong: I was a small business owner myself. Okay. Yeah. So I spent, uh, a little bit over a decade in corporate, in startups, mostly high tech. But you know, about three years ago, my mom, she decided to retire. And she's a restaurateur. Okay. Um, owned, operated many restaurants with my dad and um, you know, I think at some point they're just like, yeah, this is it.
We're not gonna do any more of that. Mm-hmm. So she retired, but after retirement she wasn't doing well. And I think my parents' generation, immigrants, first generation immigrants mm-hmm. [00:03:00] They're just so used to working really hard all the time. And suddenly you tell them to stop. Something goes wrong. Right.
And so we wanted to keep mom busy. Okay. And so we started a handmade Chinese dumpling business. Okay. Locally here in RTP. And the way it works is customers place orders online. We would deliver door to door every Saturday. Wow. I drive 150 to 200 miles every weekend. That's a lot of. Ground. Yeah. We had a new Toyota ready for, at that point in time, the wear and tear on the car is un unimaginable, but it is.
Through that experience, we realized just how hands-on you have to be. Mm-hmm. It was actually my first time being a small business owner. Okay. And you really see the nitty gritty details of what it takes to build a brand from the ground up. And the last thing I wanted to do is social media, but it's.
Kind of a double-edged sword because you know, you [00:04:00] have to be on social media to grow your brand. Yep. And so I remember like laying there at nights when things calmed down a little bit and you're literally thinking, what do I write about what, what do I post about? And you have to take these moments throughout my delivery to take photos and do all of these things.
Mm-hmm. It was just really hard. And so, uh, my son was born a year and a half ago, and after Felix came to us, mom decided that she doesn't wanna do this business anymore. And being a full-time grandma is pretty, I was gonna
Trevor Schmidt: say,
Runbin Dong: grandma kind of wins out, right? It's pretty nice. So we eventually sold the business, okay.
Um, last year in February. Great. And so after we sold the business, there seems to be this thing. It's like, well, can I do something about this really, really painful problem? Mm-hmm. And so we embarked on that journey, just trying to figure out what we can do.
Trevor Schmidt: So like when you ha, this is always an interesting question to me 'cause it's like you have this idea, you know it's a problem.
What's the next step? What, what did you do next? Actually take it from this idea to [00:05:00] something that you're actually doing as a business.
Runbin Dong: So I've been a huge believer in doing things that don't scale. Hmm. So I watched a lot of YouTube and listened to a lot of really great podcasts, including this one.
Thank you. One of the first things I did was to reach out to my restaurant, um, contacts mm-hmm. Folks who are in the industry and ask them, Hey, if I were gonna be a free social media manager to you for a few months, would that be okay? And that's what we did initially. Uh, February to April, I was just helping people manage their social media accounts.
And again, that pain came back very quickly. Um. And then that led us to a hypothesis around whether that whole entire process can be automated. Hmm. We made our very first mistake in that.
Trevor Schmidt: Okay.
Runbin Dong: Um, I was in ai, spent a almost a decade in ai, and so naturally you gravitate towards, okay, well can I build an AI solution?
Mm-hmm. And our first version of [00:06:00] our product was just that cannot take a brand and use AI to generate content.
Trevor Schmidt: So the AI was actually generating the content.
Runbin Dong: Okay, that's right. Captions, visuals. Mm-hmm. Hashtag research, all of that. It worked really well. It's very efficient, except all of our customers hated it.
Oh, and what was it that put their finger on that they hated about it? Authenticity. Uh, yeah. Yeah. And so we very quickly realized that. It's almost like a moment, right? Of Oh, of course. Brands, especially small businesses, local brands, um, they build their entire reputation. And brand around authenticity.
Right. And we basically went to the opposite end of that. And so, uh, April to May, we took our first solution and we literally threw it into that dumpster fire. Oh my goodness. Burnt it.
Trevor Schmidt: And that's, that's a gutsy call. It'd be like, okay, we gotta completely start over. It's not that we have to make minor tweaks to it, but we are [00:07:00] starting from scratch.
From scratch, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you start from scratch and like,
Runbin Dong: what's the next step? Yeah. So, um, being in the field, um, and being much more data-driven mm-hmm. Uh, we, we sort of took a look at what worked, what didn't work. Right. So doing a retrospective
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah.
Runbin Dong: Soul searching too. Mm-hmm. Um, because when we started the company, it was very much of a, oh, I know what the problem is, I just need to build a solution towards that, which took a step back and suddenly realized, well, all of these things are happening, number one.
The currency of authenticity is becoming more and more prominent these days. AI generated content is already flooding the market, and at some point, even for me as a consumer, you, you're beginning to realize that it's actually becoming more and more difficult to differentiate what is AI generated versus what isn't, right?
And so if we drill down to the first principles, the core beliefs, I have to believe that there is a future where authentic content. [00:08:00] Has a premium placed on it. Mm-hmm. It needs to stand out. And so we sort of took that first principle and said, okay, well this is something that we definitely want to work on.
Okay. How do we make content that is authentic? But the problem with that is scale. Mm-hmm. And cost. Right? My restaurant owners, clients, friends, they would tell us they spent thousands of dollars getting a videography team into their restaurant just for half a day. Right. You can't scale that. And so we said, okay, well if we really needed to scale this operation, something needs to give.
Mm-hmm. What is it? Mm-hmm. And that's how we came up with the next iteration of our product. We said, well, looking at the data for every given brand that is more or less established, about 10 to 30% of their customer base, they're like super loyal fans. Hmm. So we asked the question, can we turn. These amazing customers into the biggest [00:09:00] advocates for our restaurants or for our brands, right?
And that's what led us to, okay, well what if we can empower them to upload content, to generate content? Mm-hmm. And for the brands to reward them immediately for that. And we would build an entire pipeline that is AI powered to drive efficiencies in the collection. Of that content in the generation of videos based on those content.
Mm. And to be super, super clear, we don't generate AI content. Right. None of this is, it's their content generated. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the nuance that I think that differentiates our approach from. Plenty of the other AI generation tools out there.
Trevor Schmidt: So if I'm, if I'm like one of these 10 to 30% loyal fans and I go into my favorite business, how, how am I interacting with scale social?
Runbin Dong: Yeah. So we, in the designing of our solution, we kept it super simple for businesses. Mm-hmm. Because as a business [00:10:00] owner, I, the last thing I want is another system to deal with. So we said, okay, well, no integrations, no downloads, no apps, none of that. Yep. What if we set up a QR code because people are much more.
Open to using QR codes these days. Thank you. COVID. What if they can scan a QR code and enter into our experience? Yeah. And so they see a landing screen that is branded for that restaurant. They see the offer. Share your best moments with us for a free ice cream free, mocktail free, something that the owner decides.
Yep. And, um, upload content and redeem right away. Wow. Okay. So
Trevor Schmidt: it's, it is like same day. Yeah. Like I walk in, upload my picture
Runbin Dong: Yep. While I eat your food. They'll bring out, maybe by that time you finish your food, they'll bring out the ice cream.
Trevor Schmidt: Yep. And so what, so you, is it video content? Is it pictures, is it a mix of both?
Runbin Dong: Yeah. Yeah. We do put a preference over short videos that [00:11:00] customers upload. Okay. Um, and, uh, at the end of the day, it's up to them.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah. And is it app agnostic as far as like social media platform or like the video? Yes. So
Runbin Dong: and so that's the other innovation. Um, we don't lock our customers into any platform.
Mm-hmm. Um, it's just the content that they're providing, but we help facilitate the creation and the distribution of that content across all ad networks. Okay. That,
Trevor Schmidt: that's amazing. I, yeah, I want to, I think about that a little bit, but I do wanna take a step back for, for you and kind of how you got to this point in time.
'cause like, when did you first think of yourself as an entrepreneur or think of yourself as, Hey, I'm, I'm, I wanna start a business. I.
Runbin Dong: Yeah,
Trevor Schmidt: I
Runbin Dong: was actually the opposite of an entrepreneur growing up because my parents were restaurateurs. Mm-hmm. Um, I was deeply embedded in the operations of the business. So if you think about like this Chinese kid doing homework in a restaurant mm-hmm.
When parents are both busy, that was me. Yep. And so growing up, I wanted to be a doctor, I wanted to be a researcher. And so going to [00:12:00] Duke, um, my aspiration was a MD PhD kind of oriented path. Okay. A lot of things happen in life for a reason. During sophomore year of my college while attending Duke, uh, my parents were going through a divorce.
Mm-hmm. And it was not pretty. And so I have two younger sisters. I don't know what got into me. I was young, naive, angry, but made a last minute call to go back to home, Tennessee. Picked up two girls and brought them over. Oh, wow. And so I had a very unique college experience whereby I took care of two.
Very young girls. Mm-hmm. Without my parents around while attending college full-time. Wow. That changes focus a little bit, doesn't it? It does. And I was such a good student. I've built my entire self-worth and value on how great of a student I am. Mm-hmm. Academic ex excellence being a huge part of my identity and that experience took [00:13:00] me pretty far away from that.
I got my first D in organic chemistry. Okay. That. Broke me.
Trevor Schmidt: I was gonna say, well, organic's tough to begin with, but like yeah. When you got all this other stuff that you're trying
Runbin Dong: to deal with, it's unbelievable. Yeah. And so I think my value system had to be reconstructed. Mm-hmm. And there was, it was sort of like my low, at that point in time, I didn't know who I am, what I was, what kind of value I bring to the table.
But coming out of that experience and realizing that an MD PhD path may not be. As relevant anymore. Right. That actually opened up a whole world of possibilities.
Trevor Schmidt: And how did you, yeah, without, I mean, how, how do you rebuild that kind of sense of value or sense of perspective or, you know, what, what were the steps you took to kind of, all right, I'm gonna, this is not who I was or who I'm going to be.
How do you reshape that? And
Runbin Dong: I don't know. Um, I think that's the real answer. [00:14:00] But I think family being a huge part of it. Mm-hmm. I think my sisters played a big part into me navigating through all of that. Yep. 'cause you suddenly realize that you're responsible for, for them, and. Shouldering, whatever comes along the way.
Right. And so in a way, you are being forced to be very scrappy and very resourceful.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: And having to figure out a way such that we have a sustainable lifestyle. Yeah. And we didn't come from a great family background. I grew up on food stamps. Mm-hmm. 'cause my parents, while they were entrepreneurs, they had many failed ventures.
Mm-hmm. So they taught me a lot about what not to do. Right. Um, it was actually because of that, that I really disliked this notion of entrepreneurship. Interesting. But. Through that experience raising two younger sisters. Um, you know, I had to spend the first 10 years or so of [00:15:00] my adult life building up a financial base, right.
And, and that's what I intently focused on.
Trevor Schmidt: And is that what, so you worked, I think with some large corporate entities and got some experience there. Yeah. So how do you find yourself then coming back almost full circle to entrepreneurship then? I mean, it sounds like you were in some respects running away from it.
Yeah. But then you come back to it. Was there something that kind of pulled you in that direction? The dumpling. Okay. So it was the dumping business. Yeah. I loved it.
Runbin Dong: I, I, it was so hard, but I, I loved every bit of it because you, you are so close to your customers. Mm-hmm. And when your customers text you saying how much they enjoy your product, that being the dumplings that just brings, I don't know.
It is, it's hard to put into words, but that sense of reward Yeah. And accomplishment. I. Is incredible. Like I love that
Trevor Schmidt: there is definitely a different type of connection with a smaller business and that mm-hmm. One-on-one connection with your customers than you, that you don't [00:16:00] get in a large environment.
There are some benefits to a large environment, but you know, it's not that.
Runbin Dong: Yeah, I agree. Um, I started my career with IBM Okay. And eventually made my way into IBM Watson and Watson Health. I thank them immensely for the structure. The discipline, a lot of the skill sets that, which I still use today.
Trevor Schmidt: Well, I mean, talk about that a little bit.
'cause it sounds like you've had some experience with the big, you've had some experiences with the small. How has that influenced kind of like how you're operating today?
Runbin Dong: I think the best way I can contextualize it is it gives you very different kinds of sets. Mm-hmm. That allows you to zoom out. So in a larger company, they're very good at.
Helping you understand the broader strategic lens as to how markets move and how you fit into the broader market. What they're not so great at is getting you to roll up your sleeves to actually do the work yourself. And so when I left IBM, I had one V vision and, [00:17:00] and one goal, which is to work for a startup.
And I was very fortunate to be one of the very first telemedicine startups at the time. Helping them roll out a telemedicine platform. Okay. And I've moved into product management at that point in time. And product management for IBM is very different from product management for a series B startup.
Mm-hmm. And that inherently forces you to wear many hats. And again, because of that, I loved it.
Trevor Schmidt: So what is it specifically like about. Having the multiple, is it challenge, is it the distraction? Is it just new things each day?
Runbin Dong: New things each day? And you get to learn a lot of different disciplines at the same time.
So for example, ux, uh, user experience. Mm-hmm. Um, UI design, graphic design. I actually loved painting. Okay. But I'm also colorblind. Oh, really? Okay. And so I always felt like there's. A [00:18:00] culmination of all of these interests and skill sets that sort of come together mm-hmm. Into whatever I'm doing now. Yeah.
That makes it really, really interesting and fun.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah. I always think that's, that that is key is that like, in some respects, no experience is wasted if you continue to build on that. Mm-hmm. And then now you have all these different sets that you can bring to focus on Yeah. Kind of your current company.
I'm curious as to what you think, like your younger version of yourself. Would think about what you're doing now. Mm. Given that you said that there was kind of that dislike of entrepreneurship, do you, what do you think your younger self would say to you now?
Runbin Dong: Very proud, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think it's been a very, very windy path.
We tried a lot of things, but I'm at a point where I suddenly realized that you could do virtually anything. Mm-hmm. And that's a very liberating feeling to have. And I sometimes think. I, I didn't go to Stanford. Sometimes I still think about that.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah.
Runbin Dong: So I got a full ride to Stanford and a full ride to Duke.
I chose Duke because of the MD PhD. [00:19:00] Okay. And sometimes I still do think, oh, since I'm now an entrepreneur, I should have gone to. Yeah. But then again, realizing that I wouldn't be the person I am today. Sure. Without all of those windy paths that we took.
Trevor Schmidt: Right. Yeah. Now that you're you, you got your company kind of built up.
What were some of the early challenges that you faced kind of getting scale social off the ground?
Runbin Dong: We experimented a ton. Mm-hmm. It's interesting because when I think about the exercise of our entrepreneurship, it's almost as though we are just designing experiments and running experiments in a constant cycle.
Like the scientific method except being multiplied. Mm-hmm. Hundreds of times. And I think that brings, it brings this exercise or this motion, or this journey into a much more structured lens. Okay. And so in the early days when we were building scale of social, we wanted to understand whether customers are motivated enough.
To upload content. Right. Why would they do that? Yeah. [00:20:00] Right. And that led us to make a bunch of assumptions around, do we pay them? Do we tip them? Do we get the restaurants to reward them? Right? And all of these various options. At the end of the day, we can't necessarily say for sure what works. Mm. We let the customers dictate that.
And so I think it's that sort of constant iteration that makes one our company a whole lot more interesting because we're not led by our own assumptions, but rather we are led by the results of what comes out of these campaigns. Another example, when we built our, uh, scoring algorithm, so all the content that comes into our servers, uh, we have an agent, an AI agent that.
Scores and applies metadata to all of the content that is created. We initially thought in the food and beverages phase. Photos, images, videos of food will do really well. Right. Turns out that wasn't the case really. [00:21:00] It is photos and videos of people, especially people who are seemingly having a great time.
Mm-hmm. And then we started reading books around it. Right. Retroactively. And realizing, oh yeah, of course. As human beings, we like to see other human beings in a different setting. Mm-hmm. In a social setting. Right. And that you are drawn to that. And so we, we learned a lot through just the data that was presented back to us.
Mm-hmm.
Trevor Schmidt: What are some of the applications that you've seen? 'cause like, I think in some respects it's very intuitive to think about this for like a small restaurant or a bar or some location like that. What are some of the other kind of applications that you've seen for customers who aren't necessarily in that space?
Runbin Dong: Yeah. Uh, we get pitched a lot of really interesting ideas. And, and it's such a fun space to be in. Mm-hmm. When you're then thinking about, could this be possible for X? Mm-hmm. Y and Z and so some really interesting use cases, beauty and hair salons, nail salons. Okay. For. Now we think about it pretty obvious [00:22:00] reasons because if I have done my new nail Yeah.
New hair. Yeah. It is a very visual representation of the service and the products. And so we realize that that's a great segment for us to start getting into.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: And we have signed clients in that space now. Um, we've been pitched hair loss. So a publicly listed company actually reached out to us.
Okay. And said, Hey, we love what you're doing. By the way, I have hundreds and thousands of customers who are growing their hair. Yeah. Can we use your platform to sort of document that journey?
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: Because once you stitch that video together, we don't need to do marketing anymore. The video will sell our product.
Yep. Speaks for itself. So we now are embarking upon these really interesting experiments, but I think just being very mindful of not being too distracted. Right? Right. Because as a startup, we needed to make sure that. The traction [00:23:00] that we've gained in the food space. Yep. We go deeper in.
Trevor Schmidt: Okay. It's always kind of the, the tension, I guess, or the balancing act of what are the opportunities?
Yeah. And what are the opportunities that are gonna help us grow versus the opportunities that are gonna distract us from what we're really trying to do.
Runbin Dong: And we build that into our product innovation cycle.
Trevor Schmidt: So, I mean, how do you think about that? How do you weigh each opportunity that comes in and say.
Yes, this is, this is good for growth, or this is maybe two years down the road, or this is what we need to do now.
Runbin Dong: So I think having great co-founders who balance your. Inherent instincts and tendencies. Really hope here.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: I like to say yes to a lot of things. Okay. I should get better at saying no. I think part of it's the IBM training.
Okay. It's like you say yes to your clients and figure out Right. How you can make it work. But my co-founders are my counterbalance. Mm. And so something that we started doing at scale social is we would reserve 80% of our bandwidth towards our core. Right. And we're not that big. And so it's a very easy for us to do, [00:24:00] and we almost see the other segments, like small experiments.
Or a better way to frame it would be we are our own incubation and innovation lab. Okay. Where the rest of the 20% of our capacity goes into these experiments. Interesting. So can we do this? Can we try, can we, can we try something and measure and figure out whether there's some, some there, there.
Trevor Schmidt: Yep. So how did you meet your co-founders or how did you come together with those?
Runbin Dong: Yeah, so Kit, my product and design co-founder, we met as coworkers while working at Moderna. Okay. The vaccine company? Yeah. COVID. And, uh, was it during COVID? Uh, no. Okay. It was crazy during COVID. I can't imagine Moderna, but. Uh, prior to Moderna, she was leading a design team at Amazon Fashion.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: And so through Kit we have a pretty heavy dose or injection of Amazon culture.
So, prominently one you eat I own dog food. [00:25:00] Right? What, so what do you mean by that? So, trying the solutions ourselves and really learning and understanding what data comes back and being very, very quick in how we iterate. Hmm. And so let's say we have 10 projects or 10 ideas, we will light all of them up with the 20% of our capacity, and if something shows promise, we continue with it.
If it doesn't, then I. They get eliminated. Okay. So, um, kit was a coworker and, um, Paul, my technical co-founder, uh, met through a mutual, uh, venture capital friend.
Trevor Schmidt: Excellent. And so how has that been kind of like you, you, you've talked about having them be a good balance for you, but how has it kind of navigating differences in opinion, differences in ideas?
Oh gosh. Coming to coming to Consensus to move the company forward.
Runbin Dong: So recently had a fight. Okay. It's really interesting because, uh, you know, we get very opinionated for sure. We have our own biases, which we need to be, [00:26:00] be very mindful of. But, um, I remember I was in a fairly heated discussion with this kid.
Okay. Uh, and my wife just walked into the door and she's like, wow. Like the kind of stuff and the tone that you guys assume, like it's really similar to how we fight as a married couple. It is very much that. Yeah. Right. And I think because we are passionate, because we are driving this company forward with fairly deep rooted conviction.
Mm-hmm. Or certainly biases, it is very difficult for us to ensure that no feelings get hurt. Right. And so as a culture or as a company, we spend some time. Really thinking through how to resolve differences. Mm-hmm. And the best principle here is, uh, you may differ in opinion, let the data speak. Okay. Right.
So doesn't matter what you [00:27:00] think. Doesn't matter what I think, let's try it and have the data speak for itself.
Trevor Schmidt: I like that. Well, and it's interesting that you mentioned the fact that it's like married couples. 'cause we were talking earlier that. You know, the startup is like your baby as well. So you're essentially shepherding that baby together and that's definitely gonna create some strong feelings and strong opinions about how things get done.
Runbin Dong: And you feel good about that? Yeah. 'cause that means everyone cares
Trevor Schmidt: because if, if, if they didn't care, then you're not doing the right thing. So are there any sort of applications that you haven't had a chance to try yet that you're, you really want to have that first opportunity or first customer, anything in your mind?
Oh, yes.
Runbin Dong: We have so many ideas. Which, which one makes you the most excited? So, uh, we are really thinking about putting together almost like a lottery jackpot kind of feature to further incentivize our customers to participate in this, uh, social, uh, interaction. Mm-hmm. And so. Thinking back to our current model, we rely [00:28:00] almost exclusively on our restaurant operators and or business owners to decide what that incentive is.
Mm-hmm. So, as you can imagine, operationally, it becomes more complex. These become elements that we do not fundamentally control. And consequently, because there's a diversity in what the offer is, we see varying degrees of success Right. In the campaign. And so we started asking questions around, well, two things.
One, can we operationally streamline what the consumers get? Mm-hmm. Such that we don't get into the nitty gritty details of how these things operate. Right. Right. Um, better yet, can our businesses tip. Consumers for great content, almost like how Patreon works, right? So that's on one level. And the other level is how can scale social, put its own skin in the game?
Can we build a pool of cash prices? Mm-hmm. Whereby uploading great [00:29:00] content, you get automatically entered into that pool. And we would do this on a monthly basis. Because if that works, everyone wins.
Trevor Schmidt: Right. So talk to me a little about that. 'cause what's the, what's the incentive or what's the upside for scale social with that type of, uh, interaction?
Runbin Dong: Better content means better quality results in our videos and more data. Mm-hmm. Means better. Machine learning models for us. Okay.
Trevor Schmidt: So there's a certain amount of that value coming in from just the amount of data that you're absolutely ingesting. Sure. I think that makes a lot of sense. Do you have just like success, success stories that stand out in your mind for.
You know, a customer that's come back to you from scale social and said, Hey, we've seen this benefit from working with you. Or, I mean, what are some of those stories that stand out in your mind?
Runbin Dong: Absolutely. Um, it's what I get really excited about waking up every morning.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: Right? It's like, oh, how can we help the small guys win?
Right. Yeah. So we recently did a client visit, uh, with [00:30:00] Tim and Tina from Fat Tuesday.
Trevor Schmidt: Okay.
Runbin Dong: So I don't know if you know the brand and or have done frozen daiquiris. Yeah. Winters are the toughest months for their business. Yeah, I bet. Because of the nature of their product. Um, they reached out to us because of a triangle business general, um, feature.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: And when we engaged with them, it was well into November. And so again, toughest months. Yep. We recently did a look back. How do we do? Mm-hmm. And what we found is we're able to drive. Almost 140,000 views to our content on a monthly basis. Wow. And that's just on social media. We haven't even included Google campaigns and we haven't included mobile ads.
Right. And so the way I think about our business, it's almost as though we're installing digital billboards. Mm-hmm. And we ensure that our targeted customers [00:31:00] drive by those billboards. Every single day. Yep. What we do struggle with is figuring out a way to directly measure conversion.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: From an online visible, visible ad.
Yeah. To an offline visit. We do have a way to measure that right now by proximity. Mm-hmm. But not directly.
Trevor Schmidt: Okay. Is that something you're working on that Yeah. I would imagine. Absolutely. Yep. So, yeah, I mean, where are you kind of in the life cycle of, of our company? Have you been around for, is it about a year now or is longer than that?
Runbin Dong: Um, less than a year.
Trevor Schmidt: Less than a year.
Runbin Dong: Okay. So from May when we launched the product Okay. To now. And, um, we are working with a, a handful of clients, about 20 or so. Mm-hmm. Um, we are cashflow positive. That's the good news. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So especially for a very young company and the best feeling is, um, when you let prospective VCs know that you don't really need their money.
Yeah. I did bootstrap the business with my own money, and so I think there's a sense of [00:32:00] physical conservatism to it, but at the same time, I am aware that to grow the business we need capital. And so I'm trying to find the right balance here.
Trevor Schmidt: And that was gonna be my question. So like, when do you think you'd like to take on investment and what, how do you think about that process and, and the value that taking on investment would add?
Runbin Dong: Uh, now, so we saw a bit of our inflection curve. Mm-hmm. Um, beginning of this year. So we're signing on more and more clients that are more as at a faster pace. Right now we are studying the business too, uh, for. The last several months we have zero churn.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: That's a good sign. That's amazing. For a subscription business's.
And so beginning of this year, we opened up a friends and family angel round $250,000. Um, it's not gr it is significant round. It's fairly small, but it's enough capital for us to AP test a lot of things. So from a growth perspective, um, half of that will go towards growth. The other [00:33:00] half of that funding will go towards product improvements.
Trevor Schmidt: Okay. And then when do you think you'd go out for like a larger round?
Runbin Dong: Mm. Depending on the numbers that we see. Okay. This year, so our goal with this current round is to get to $1 million in ar
Trevor Schmidt: mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: By end of 2025. Okay. And, uh, based on the numbers we're currently seeing, I know we're in March. Um, we might get there sooner.
That's amazing.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah. So I mean, is it, like you said, it's nice to be able to go out to potential VCs and say, Hey, we don't need your money now. Just look how great we're doing though, and have those conversations early and often. Right?
Runbin Dong: Yeah, because, um, I think also informed by this small business background, we want to make sure that the business that we do build up is gonna be rooted on solid foundational like fundamentals.
Trevor Schmidt: Talking about that made me wonder how geographically focused is this business? I mean, is it hard to kind of move into other geographies or to represent a small business, say in [00:34:00] Philadelphia, if you're here in Durham, how, how, how do you, how do you do that?
Runbin Dong: Not necessarily that difficult, but there are nuances in this.
Okay. When we first started the business, we actually signed our first clients across almost 10 states. Hmm. So, very sparse and. Diversified from that perspective, even though our client base and install base is fairly small. Mm-hmm. Since end of last year, beginning of this year, we started focusing a whole lot more on local markets, and so we're very interested in working with food businesses here in the RTP area.
Okay. There are 1,398. Restaurants,
Trevor Schmidt: it's a decent market.
Runbin Dong: Yes. And if we do capture a hundred percent of this market, that's about $8 million in annual recurring revenue. Okay.
Trevor Schmidt: Right.
Runbin Dong: Of course we won't, but with. The support of our market leaders. And that brings me to the other point. We recently launched a partnership with Downtown Durham Incorporated.
They have been [00:35:00] phenomenal backers of local downtown businesses. About 300 of them actually.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah.
Runbin Dong: And so through that initiative, we very quickly signed up, um, some of the most well-known brands locally. So Bull City Burger. Mm-hmm. Dames Chicken Waffle. I love, like, man, he's just hitting off the good ones.
Right? I know. Glass Jug. Yeah. Um, Sean from Full Steam hasn't come on yet, but you know, next week. Oh, that's great. Next week. Yeah. And so it's, it's. You almost have a fanboy moment. Mm-hmm. Because these are like really cool brands that I always wanted to work with. Yeah. Because I'm their customer already.
Right. And so I think that's also great validation for maybe how we should be thinking about our go-to market. It's like maybe if this works out well. Mm-hmm. And we have really good results to show. So not only for these individual businesses, but we're also putting our own skin in the game to market downtown Durham holistically.
Right. And I don't see this to be just a downtown Durham issue. [00:36:00] Sure. In fact, um, I was just speaking with the economic development body at Wilmington. Mm-hmm. Same issue. How do we bring more people downtown, more foot traffic. Right. And so I think that sort of broadens our mission in a way that is more deeply rooted to local economies.
Well, I
Trevor Schmidt: mean, I think it's just fascinating 'cause again. I guess you were talking about when you were working with IBM helping to see the broader market kind of impact here. So you have the ability to help the small business. Mm-hmm. But you help enough of those small business, you're having a direct impact in a local economy.
Absolutely have enough local economies, you have an impact on the state economy and just blossoms from there. So that's super exciting.
Runbin Dong: Yeah. And we have to then laser focus on doing a great job
Trevor Schmidt: here, right? Yep. Al always comes back to that. Right. So we talked on a little bit earlier, but I just am curious as to how you see the impact of AI going forward and this idea of kind of how do [00:37:00] you maintain authenticity or how do you create trust and reliability?
As generative AI just gets so much better and these ability to create realistic looking videos types of things gets so much better. How do you, how do you maintain that sense of authenticity and trust and, and do you think about that from scale social's perspective and being part of your business?
Runbin Dong: Yeah, I think a few things happen because of the inflection point that we reached with ai.
Number one, I. I think authenticity is gonna be a new currency. Mm-hmm. Just like how people talk about attention being a currency. Right. Very noisy world. I do think that there's gonna be a place for it that inherently brings up several challenges, uh, which we, we are actively working through. So that's where the 20% thing comes in play too, is um, when a piece of content hits our server.
How do we know if it is not AI generated? Right? How do we [00:38:00] verify the originality of a piece of content? How do we do it technically?
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: And so the concept that comes to mind here would be, can we build a tool that is almost like DocuSign? Mm-hmm. That allows our creators to sign original content electronically such that we can.
Prove it. Mm-hmm. And that to me is a really interesting challenge. Facebook has done some really interesting things here, but it's sort of lazy. Now. If you're on Facebook, you can upload a piece of content and then you have a voluntary label. You can label it with, is it AI generating or not? Right. Right. I get that, but it doesn't, it wouldn't fundamentally address the challenge.
Right. Because as a consumer, how would I know?
Trevor Schmidt: Right. And you're relying on whoever's putting it, uploading the video, to be honest, when they submit that Exactly.
Runbin Dong: Label. And so I think the, the [00:39:00] scenario that we are sort of envisioning and we're experimenting is. Then could there be a future world where we activate a base of creators who are everyday people?
Mm-hmm. I'm not talking about influencers or micro influencers even.
Trevor Schmidt: Right.
Runbin Dong: Can everyday people participate in this process of content creation? Have the content that they create to be digitally verified and signed such that it's original?
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: And because the content is so valuable and so great for the businesses.
The businesses then can say, oh my gosh, this is really wonderful. Let me compensate you for that. Right. And that would be a really interesting world to be in.
Trevor Schmidt: Well, it's such an interesting shift to go from like business generated marketing, some respects influenced based, you know, influencer based marketing to.
Back to your original customers being your marketing, and then somewhere in there the risk or threat of, you know, just completely generated [00:40:00] AI marketing coming in there and, and how do you, how do you find that sweet spot? But just an interesting problem.
Runbin Dong: It is, and we're navigating through that.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah.
Runbin Dong: Yeah.
We've seen some pros and cons. Certainly trade-offs being made. There are plenty of AI generated content platforms out there, right? Right. So ad maker for example, and there's nothing wrong with that. I own an e-commerce business. I. I can imagine using their platform mm-hmm. To generate product photos. Sure.
Uh, because the, the nature of authenticity, as long as the product is authentic, it actually doesn't matter as much if it's put on a beach side or on some Right. AI generated environment. Right. But again, when it comes back to experiences. It actually does feel a bit off, I think, as consumers. Mm-hmm. If you realize that, that the experience you you're portraying right is not real.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah. I think that's, it's, it's such a key insight. 'cause it really is that, that question, [00:41:00] do I believe that that's the experience I'm going to have? And if you have to fake it, then I'm not sure convinced that that's what I want.
Runbin Dong: Yeah. And I think as consumers ourselves, there's that gut check. Yeah.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah. So what's something about kind of starting a company or or running a company that has surprised you that you really didn't expect jumping into it?
Hmm.
Runbin Dong: It's been a lot of fun, but I think one of the. One of the key surprises and challenges for me is how to balance that with family life. Hmm. And trust me, when I say, my wife and I have had many, many conversations around this, is I think there's going to be a moment where for the future entrepreneurs.
There might be a point for them to start to realize that you actually don't need to work extremely hard yet you still can arrive at the destination that you want to be at. I think the startup [00:42:00] culture that is embodied, amplified through, you know, pop culture media, Silicon Valley and all of that is, oh, well, if this is gonna be a really, really tough journey, you have to be able to grind through it.
Mm-hmm. Yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to strip away everything, right. That you care about. Right. It's not either or. Mm-hmm. I don't think it should be, and I think this is where AI comes into play, not to, we have a five person team, plus a few contractors. Right. Part-time employees. I don't necessarily foresee the need to build a massive team mm-hmm.
To scale out our business. And this has been making your surrounds on LinkedIn too, right? What is your average revenue per employee? And I think that ratio will continue to improve over time. Right?
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah, it is an interesting idea. 'cause I think there's always that fear. I. As an entrepreneur, [00:43:00] am I doing enough?
Mm. Have I, have I done enough today to kinda move the needle? Uh, especially when it's just you or your team mm-hmm. As the measure. So you can either do as much or as little as you want to when you wake up that day. So how do you kind of measure it? Yes. I've, I've done enough to kind of move this forward today.
Runbin Dong: So I still work way too hard. Yeah. I think that's the balance I'm trying to internalize and work through at the end of the day, as long as we do right by our customers mm-hmm. Then we're on the right path. Yep. We're maniacally focused on our customers. I want to do everything we can to keep them. I want to do everything we can to have them suddenly realize, oh wow.
They're giving me a whole lot more than what I'm paying them for. Mm-hmm. That's when you know, you've achieved that multiplier effect. Yep. And so I think we're very much guided by that. Um, I honestly don't have a good answer around how to strike that balance just yet.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think some people just don't [00:44:00] realize how all consuming, being an entrepreneur, entrepreneur can, can be if you let it.
'cause there's always, there's always another mixer to go to. There's always another, yeah. You know. Panel that you could speak on. There's another VC you could talk to. There's, and that's even aside from like operating the business. So these are all these additional things that are out there. And at some point in time you do have to strategically choose, this is what I'm gonna do.
Mm-hmm. This is not what I'm gonna do and this is gonna be enough.
Runbin Dong: Agreed. Yeah.
Trevor Schmidt: So what do you see as some of the biggest challenges facing the company in the next, say 12 months or next three years?
Runbin Dong: It is getting to a conclusion or data points on the hypotheses that we are still looking to test out as quickly as possible.
Right. I think time is of the essence. The reason, part of the reason why we're raising is to make sure that we are moving forward faster. It's a trade off. Mm-hmm. 'cause if we are [00:45:00] not. Scaling out what we know to be true, we would end up wasting a lot of capital on the problems that inherently won't matter.
Right. And so you're sort of playing this balance between, well, what are my first principles? What are all of the assumptions and the hypothesis I need to test out? And what do I know to be somewhat true? Mm-hmm. But to do all of that without the extra capital, it will take. I don't know. Months, years. Right, right.
On the other hand, yes, with a a lot of capital injection, if you're not deploying them to the right problems mm-hmm. That are already rooted on foundational fundamentals, then again, we run into the risk of waste. Right. And I think this is where, I guess part of the East Coast slash Bootstrap mentality meets.
The West Coast, raise as much capital as you [00:46:00] can mentality. Yeah.
Trevor Schmidt: Well I'm glad you mentioned it 'cause like in some respects of like, it's, it's a different view from some, some entrepreneurs 'cause they're just like some entrepreneurs out there like, we're just gonna burn through cash and figure out what works and hopefully find something by the end of the day to justify another round of cash to keep doing it.
Runbin Dong: And I, it's crossed my mind many times and I think now have, having bootstrapped the business mm-hmm. And having some early investors with us. I can fairly say it feels so much better to be able to have control over how quickly you want to grow.
Trevor Schmidt: Yeah. Well, and and it's nice too, to your point, uh, having bootstrapped at this point in time, you don't have a, a board or VCs telling you that this is how we have, how quickly we have to move.
This is where we need to be in three years. It's, it's your vision and your co-founder's vision and Exactly. You could build from there. Yeah, that's great. So I did wanna ask a, a question too, kind of, 'cause it goes back and again in my mind is this balance of, you know, you talked about. [00:47:00] For a long time, kind of avoiding entrepreneurship.
Mm-hmm. But as I was preparing for this conversation, you know, I was looking through your bio and some of your history and in some respects it just bleeds entrepreneurship. 'cause you've got, you know, your dumpling business that I read something about an Etsy shop and you've got short-term rentals, you've got this business here, and I, and I just wonder kind of what is motivating, what, what's that driving force for you or to constantly be creating and kind of finding different opportunities to get out there and build something?
Runbin Dong: Yeah, I think two things. Um, inherently, uh, with my personality, I, I'm more of an optimist. Hmm. I like to believe that when you see a problem and you have a problem, you can find ways to solve it and that the power and the strength of humanity is in our ability to collaborate and work together. And so I get excited by problems.
One of my biggest vices is I want to do everything. Again saying no, and really trying hard to train myself [00:48:00] to do that more these days. Yeah. Saying no is very difficult. Sure. Because I see possibilities like, well, if you just work hard enough, and this is where my wife serves as a really great balance to that tendency, it's like, yeah, you could solve all of these problems, but do you have the time and at what cost?
Yeah. If it costs family time, if it costs you missing the next moment you have with Felix, is it worth it? And she's a lawyer. I never win any arguments with her, so she's right. Yeah. So I think just having that. Mm-hmm. The other factor is, um, my wife and I have been long followers of the fire movement.
Yeah. It's like financial independence retire early. Except at some point we suddenly realized that retiring is really boring. Right.
Trevor Schmidt: Financial independence and keep doing something
Runbin Dong: different. [00:49:00] Yes. I think that movement is evolving and I'm glad to see that and so it feels great. It's a very liberating feeling.
Mm-hmm. To realize that, you know, maybe. With more resources on hand, you could potentially deploy those resources towards certain problems. Yep. Whereby you don't necessarily have to be in the seat, and yet at the same time, you constantly struggle with identifying the right people. Mm-hmm. To be in the position you should be in to drive those projects forward.
Yep. I think whatever I'm articulating is probably the biggest problem that any business owner would have.
Trevor Schmidt: Right?
Runbin Dong: Yep. And so again, to your point and and question, the reason I, I am involved with many projects because I'm just inherently curious about what's gonna happen if you do X, Y, and Z. Yep. But at the same time, sort of counterbalancing a bit of that with, okay.
Well. [00:50:00] I should probably be spending more time with my family.
Trevor Schmidt: Right. Uh, it's an interesting question because like I, I do wonder kind of as we're sitting here, what do you hope, like Felix thinks about this business that you're running now or about what his dad did for a living? How do you think about that as, as a new dad?
Runbin Dong: That is such a good question. It's such a good question in, in the context of I, two weeks ago, actually, I recently delivered a keynote at Fuqua. Okay. And the question they had posed for me is, uh, what do you think about the future of work?
Trevor Schmidt: Hmm.
Runbin Dong: Especially with all the AI stuff, right? Say I gonna replace all this, and you know, what you brought up is how I anchored the conversation.
Well. 18 years from now, Felix is gonna be grown up.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: I hope he finds this area, the Research triangle Park, to be a [00:51:00] very different place than what it is right now. But as I think about his future, what does that look like? And sometimes my wife and I joke, maybe we should have him play a lot of Mario, so he falls in love with this notion of plumbing.
Yeah. Being a plumber might not be so great so bad. Not at
Trevor Schmidt: all. Get yourself that tech skill.
Runbin Dong: Exactly. But I think one of the key attributes, regardless of whether he become, he becomes an employee mm-hmm. Or an owner or entrepreneur, he will decide. I think what he would absolutely need to excel at is, is being guided by his moral compass and principles.
And have enough of a skillset to corral people around a certain problem.
Trevor Schmidt: Hmm.
Runbin Dong: Right. I think there's gonna be a lot of processes. A lot of work and tasks, routine stuff that AI will ultimately come in Right. And help with. But AI is not gonna help you [00:52:00] orchestrate resources. Mm-hmm. People talent. And as long as you have the power to do that, anything can be possible.
Trevor Schmidt: That's great. I appreciate that. I do also want to ask, 'cause we are the Founder Shares podcast, and so I'd like to ask all of our guests if there's one piece of advice that you wanted to offer somebody who's thinking about starting a business, what would that advice be?
Runbin Dong: I do it. Okay. Um, but I want to say that with a more nuanced lens.
Mm-hmm. Um, so again, coming from a under-resourced background. I never would've imagined that, that this would be possible. Mm-hmm. Because you have other needs. Right. So if you think about the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's like having a solid base is very important and. You know, I used to think with all the stories that being told from Silicon Valley, right?
I used to think, well, is it just because I don't have what it takes? Hmm. What I'm not fully [00:53:00] appreciating is, well, maybe they do have a lot of safety nets.
Trevor Schmidt: Mm-hmm.
Runbin Dong: Even if after these folks fail, it's okay. Right. And for me, that wasn't, not that, that was not an option. Yep. And so that contextualizes this exercise of entrepreneurship, it's like, well, it's not.
Give it all. It's not, do whatever it takes to succeed. It is making sure that you and your family is gonna be okay. Mm-hmm. First before you take the plunge. And I think that nuance is very important for people to keep in mind.
Trevor Schmidt: I, I think that's great advice. And it's super helpful. 'cause sometimes it is, yeah.
It's just hard to contextualize where other people are starting from. Mm-hmm. And so then if you're not. If you're not accurately kind of basing your comparisons, it's, it's easy to be like, well, why am I not, why am I not doing this? Yeah. Why is it so easy for them and not for me? So I appreciate that context.
So what are ways our listeners can connect with you? How do people reach out and learn more about what you're [00:54:00] doing?
Runbin Dong: Um, LinkedIn. Okay. Um, Google just search my name. Uh, I actually intentionally did not change my name. So Bin Dong didn't get an English name Uhhuh, so it's probably the most search engine optimized term out there now.
It does
Trevor Schmidt: pop up very quickly.
Runbin Dong: There's, there's no doubt about it. Um, or through email. So bin@scalesocialai.com.
Trevor Schmidt: Well bin, I really appreciate it, the time. Enjoyed the conversation so much and thanks for coming on. Thank you.
Runbin Dong: I appreciate
Trevor Schmidt: it.
That was run Ben Don. To learn more about Scale Social AI visit, get social scale.com or connect with Run Ben on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Founder Shares podcast. If you are a founder or business owner and need legal advice, be sure to check out our team@hutchlaw.com. That's hutch law.com.
We have the capacity to help you out with just about [00:55:00] any legal need your company may be facing. We're passionate about the innovation economy and ready to help you on your entrepreneurial journey. The show was edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Trevor Schmidt and thanks for listening to the Founder Shares podcast.