Svelte Radio

We're back after a long summer vacation! We talk about what's new in Svelte, View Transitions and we give you an update on what we all have been doing!

We talk about the very very sad news that Ivan Hofer has passed away.

Unfortunately we had some pretty major recording issues this time and had to record over two days, sorry about that!

Recorded on September 14th.

Unpopular Opinions

Creators & Guests

antony 
Dad / @SvelteJS maintainer / @SvelteSociety co-founder / Svelte Radio host. Born at 341.57 ppm CO2.
DS Eng @Provihq 🧜 😺 👩‍🏫
Kevin A. K.
Co-founder of Svelte Society 🌎 Organizer of Svelte Summit 🏔 Host of Svelte Radio 📻
Anti-ego ideas for anti-ergodic life.Founder, @smolmodels▹ AI news/pod: @latentspacepod ▹ Principles: @coding_career▹ Curator: @aiDotengineer

What is Svelte Radio?

Things about Svelte. Sometimes weekly, sometimes not.


Hey everyone, we're back for another Svelte Radio episode.

And this time we are the full cast,

Sean, Brittany, Anthony, and myself.

We're back after the summer break, summer holiday.

And yeah, we're very excited to get into the nitty gritty

of Svelte again.

So what have you guys been up to?

Happy to be back and to have everyone here.



--really happy to be on video and to allow everyone

to see our excited faces when you surprise us

with your introductions.


- This one wasn't too wild, right?

- No, it's just always a surprise.

- All right, yeah.

- Yeah, so since last time,

Bianca got series A, which is amazing.

- Yay. - Congrats.

- Yeah, and it was three times the size

of the average series A in England at the time,

which is great because--

Can you tell us what that word is and means?

Series... Series A.

You'll have to say it slower, maybe.

Series... like as in...

Series... oh, Series A.

Series A, sorry, yes.


Yes, sorry about my bad.

You're speaking English, I just...

I should be clearer on a podcast.

Series A, it's like a funding round.

Okay, I'm sorry.

So, what are you doing with all the money?

Well, we're just big parties, yachts, you know, the usual kind of stuff.

No, actually, we are being extremely thrifty with it because it's very, it was very, very

hard to guess.

It took us months and people kept eking extra money and it was really weird.

Yeah, we're basically an international expansion.

So we've just launched in the US.

So we're now, I think we're already 10 people out there in Austin.

Oh, wow.

Which is pretty cool.

And yeah, we're just doing a more global rollout,

which is pretty cool stuff.

- That's amazing, congrats.

- You hired 10 people in the last few months?

- You better believe it.

Honestly, we hire people very quickly.

We're talking sales hires.

We're not doing tech in the US at the moment,

but we're doing sales hires there.

Yeah, we seem to hire good people very quickly,

which is surprising given how hard it is.

- So you're hiring sales in Austin,

which Austin is a big tech hub right now, too.

- It is a big tech hub.

Yeah, I couldn't tell you why we're doing sales in Austin.

We just are.

- We just built a new office in Austin.

- Nice.

- I feel like there's a potential for a meetup in Austin

or something.

- I know, I definitely should go there.

- Where we can all fly in.

- I am going to San Antonio next month,

but I don't think that's that close to Austin.

Texas is really big.

- I had this big.

- I've heard.


- It's like bigger than half of Europe.

I don't know, it's not that big, but it's big.

- It's very big, yeah.

Yeah, what about you, Sean?

What have you been up to?

You're living in San Francisco now,

and we're recording this way too early for you.

- Yeah, so the usual times I have not been able to make them

because they're 6 a.m. my time now,

but I did move to San Francisco.

I have been more or less immersing myself

in AI engineering, quote unquote,

which is a term I am semi making up,

but also has caught on a little bit

in the sense that the podcast that I work on

and the newsletter and now the conference that I'm running

have all been tuned towards the persona of the AI engineer,

which is the software engineer that is building with AI.

And that is meant to be a distinct profile demographic

than the ML engineer or the research scientist.

And yeah, I've been immersing in that for quite a bit.

I'm currently back in London,

just on a stop because I'm about to speak at a conference.

And even here, I'm meeting a whole bunch of AI engineers

And it's been really rewarding, I guess.

And yeah, I think that's my update so far.


Yeah, that's exciting.

And we did a podcast episode on Svelte Radio about the basics

or an intro to AI kind of thing that people should check out

if they're interested in that.


So what have I been doing this summer?

I have been on a road trip to Norway.

Well, that was the plan anyway.

It started raining like torrential amounts of rain,

so I had to cancel, go back home, just sit in my apartment.

That was fine though.

It was nice taking a break.

But now they have conveniently started re,

what's it called?

They're like redoing the pipes and the sewage system

in my apartment complex.

So I have no running water.

I have no sewage.

So that's nice.

But yeah, luckily we have another apartment

that we're living in in the meantime, so that's fine.

But it's like a mattress on the floor.

It kind of feels like those pictures you see

of Silicon Valley people, startup people

just living in San Francisco.

They have a TV on a chair,

and then there's just a mattress on the floor.

I don't know if you've seen those pictures.

- You say it's like a mattress on the floor, Kev,

but you are famous on this podcast

for being in environments

whether it's just a mattress on the floor or a chair on the floor or like, I don't know,

nothing is, I think was one time like an empty room. I would say that if it looks, Kev, a

bit like your background always at all times.

Well, I mean, this is actually just like an office space.

Okay, that's different. That's different then. Because I honestly thought maybe it's a Scandinavian

thing that this minimalist has gone crazy. But no, I mean, mashed on the floor is de facto.

It's not by choice. I would love to not sleep on the floor.

Yes, wouldn't we all?

So lately I've been building the Newsveldt Summit website. So that's launching today,

which would be a week ago if you're listening to this. It was meant to go out yesterday, but

things happened. And yeah, I've been actually rebuilding it. So

I'm releasing the new the new conference site. And then I'm

also rebuilding, rebuilding it to be more dynamic. So I don't

have to like update it manually all the time, which I should

have done like two years ago, but better late than never. So

there's that. That's, that's pretty much me. When is it?


When is it?

So it's on November 11th and it's on the usual URL,

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

You should always plug the dates and CFP and CFPFire info.

You're right., November 11th, CFPs are open.

If you're interested in doing a talk, go submit one.

That's it.

Any other personal updates or what's been going on lately?

I think Brittany hasn't gone.


Yeah, I don't know. I feel like life's just been crazy. Summer is always just nuts with

the kids. We've been, we went to amusement parks, we went to a place called Cedar Point

which has, it used to have some of the biggest roller coasters in the world, but now we rode

the sixth tallest and fastest roller coaster. Got my son on that, but then he chickened

out of like the next couple. So he wrote two there and then we went to a more

local one a couple weeks later with my younger one and she got him on like

pretty much everything there except for the upside down stuff. But he did like an

upside down one there. I don't know. He's a funny beast that one. So I'm

trying to get him to be braver but maybe as the little one gets older. Because

- 'Cause he's like, "I can't let the little girl

"like outdo me on the big roller coasters."

So he's like, "If she's gonna go, I have to go."

So yeah, we had fun this summer.

It was our first summer with the pool.

So we spent a lot of time in the pool.

It's the only nice time here in Michigan.

So we didn't vacation a lot,

but amusement parks and pool time, it was good.

- I feel like Michigan is kind of like Sweden

in that sense that like in the summertime,

kind of want to enjoy the place where you live.


Yeah, that's true.

Just weirdly related to roller coasters because I mean, I used to love roller coasters as

a kid as well.

I still enjoy them now, the big ones, but swings, I used to really enjoy swings as a

kid as well and like swings in a park and stuff and I was always the one who tried to

get over the top and all that kind of stuff.

But the thing that-

Jumping ropes and stuff?

Well, you can get if you swing hard enough, you can get to the anti-gravity stage and

then you suddenly go over the top.

You know, you'll get right over the top of it,

which is probably a bad idea really.

But as a kid, you know, you kid your kid things.

But what I found is now having my own child

who also seems to love swings.

I sit on a swing next to her and try and swing

and I feel physically sick.

Like I really feel sick when I swing.

How, when did that happen?

Like I didn't use swings for 10 years.

- You get old.


- No, but that's not, that's not fair.


- In your 30s probably at some point,

like you just got old and you just don't realize it.

and then you need Dramamine to go on roller coasters now.

I'm not so bad.

I can still do the loopy ones,

and I will feel it after a few,

but my husband, he took true Dramamine

while we were there to go on the roller coasters,

and then after the last one we went on,

he's like, "I can't do anymore."


- Are there drugs against motion sickness?

- It's like anti, yeah, motion sickness.

It's the ones you take for cruise ships and boats.

- I have no idea.

- Yeah.

Yeah, I've heard of those.

I don't get it.

It came on like suddenly.

Now it's like, when did that happen?

What point or what age did I stop being able to use a swing?

- Mm-hmm.

- Yeah.

- When you got old.

- Well, that's depressing anyway.

- Yeah, all right.

So that's some fun updates from folks.

We also have some updates on Svelte and Kip, right?

- Oh.

- Yeah.

So recently, we finally managed to get the onNavigate lifecycle hook, I guess you could call it, into the kit.

So that means that we can now very easily use the, what's it called, viewTransition API that's been added to Chrome.

Which makes it super easy to do page transitions.

I guess you could figure it out from the name of the API.

Only works in Chrome. I think I read somewhere or heard something about Safari adding it as well, or they are going to add it at least.

But we'll see how long that takes. The good thing about it is that it's a really nice candidate for progressive enhancement.

So if it's just like a feature flag thing,

or you check if it exists on the document,

and if it works, it works.

If it doesn't work, you'll just get

the regular old style thing,

where you just get a flash or the content changes.

Has anyone tried the transitions API?

- I haven't, I want to.

I think it looks really good.

And there's been a few hacks before that.

I guess I don't fully understand it,

and I need to understand it first and then use it,

but it's definitely something interesting

that I'd like to try.

- I feel like this needs to prove

that people want it enough.

I think it's the kind of thing that designers love

because it looks slick,

but then if it doesn't seem to actually benefit sites

like Bionk, then why do we have it?


- Right.

- Obviously, I think we have it

because you can't really do what this does

inside of native JavaScript.

You have to have some browser support for it.

And the apps, like the native apps on mobile apps

have come with it.

And so I think this is all part of the whole story

about the web fighting back against the closed gardens

of the native mobile ecosystems,

because the native mobile ecosystems

offer better user experience.

But I don't know, it seems like it has to prove its value

and I don't know what needs to happen

for it to go mainstream.

Like, let's say Safari supports it tomorrow.

I still don't see a whole bunch of people rewriting

to add custom transitions, but maybe that can just come

with some frameworks out of the box.

- Right, so I guess my response would be that,

view transitions, when I say that I don't know,

I don't, I need to understand them more.

guess what I'm thinking here is that I have two sort of destinations for them.

One would be the main website like the marketing site and one would be the

dashboard. I can envisage that flashy transitions are cool on a marketing site

but we're actually moving that to WordPress so I can no longer use Svelte

transitions. But on the dashboard I can see it having value you know because it

gives a better user experience and more like an app experience but what I don't

understand about them, especially in the Svelte ones, is how do I give it the contextual information

it needs in order to transition from meaningful state A to meaningful state B. So if my page

has got this div on it and I click that to change page, how does it know that that div

becomes a focus or elements of that div or things on screen become the focus and they

get transitioned into the next page and everything else gets cleared out and then I have the

new page in front of me.

That's the bit I'm very unclear on.

Yeah, so I think this is mostly done in CSS actually. So you define the divs in CSS, and

you name a transition name, I think, that you apply to the element. So I'm not sure

entirely how much you actually need to do actual JavaScript to get this working.

Right, because the JavaScript controls, I mean, I guess the JavaScript controls it would

be, you know, the orchestration.

Yeah, but I think that's only if you have an SPA, right? I think

if it's an MPA, like it would just work. I assume. Maybe not.

I'm not an I don't know how it would work in MPA because isn't

that like clear the page and reload?

Yeah, but that's that's the that's the thing with with these

view transitions. Yeah, transitions between actual


Actual page.

And the

- Yeah. - What, really?

- Yeah. - I thought it was view-to-view.

Page transition API.

But I thought that was like pages as in the virtual pages,

which SPA is made up of.

- Right. - I guess it could be.

Well, that's what I thought it was, because I can't imagine how you transition smoothly.

You know, request to the server, get a new page back in full and I don't know.

Like I said, I don't understand it. I mean, I'm ready to understand it,

but I don't right now.

- Yeah.

Yeah, I guess we'll have to dive a bit deeper.

- Deep dive.

- This is a view transition API.

So it's not the page transition.

- But I think it is between pages.

- Currently enable cross document view transition.

- Oh, interesting.

So that would mean it's not MPA.

- So it transitions between states in spas.

- Right, that's what I thought it was.

Yeah, because you have to retain the content of the page in some form.


Unless you had like streaming responses maybe would work, but I don't know how that would

work even.

That's a whole different kettle of dogs.

I mean, I would think the browser would be able to cache the old page and just check

where the different...

I just haven't played with these.

But isn't there something to do with the browser's porting it, isn't there?


- Safari doesn't support it. - Yeah, it's all browser.

- Right, okay. - Correct.

- Yeah, there's a lot I don't know.

You don't know what you don't know, Kev.

- Yeah, maybe we should have Geoffrey on

to help us understand this.

- That would sound good.

- Yeah.

So I guess that's what's new in Kit.

And on the Svelte side, we have a lot of Svelte ambassadors

talking on Twitter about how they're liking the new Svelte 5 and stuff. That's very cool.

I wonder when it's coming. I guess we'll see. Because we can't talk about it.

I've heard nothing of it. I've heard nothing of it. Liars. Who are they?

Me neither.

What do they do?

I know nothing about anything.

But let's say that the addition of Dominic to the team may or may not have influenced

it somewhat. Yeah, yeah, maybe. Maybe. But we don't know. Things maybe get interesting.

Yeah, maybe. I wonder if we'll get more magic or less magic. We'll see. I wonder. Yeah.

Actually, one thing I did learn about Dominic, that Dominic was apparently one of the,

one of the if not the person who decided React hooks should be called hooks.

That's interesting.

He was very, yeah, he was very pivotal in the whole hooks movement, which is interesting.

Yeah. And he and he obviously I think he I'm going to get this wrong, but he, he invented

in ember, ember, and the thing that's the thing I think it's inferno inferno,

The thing that was always faster in the benchmarks and Svelte, like behind Vanilla, I think mostly,

and then always faster than Svelte.

And now like he's in the Svelte column.

So what, so what happens there?

What happens there, everyone?

I think maybe we can talk about is Rich shared some of the benchmarks for Svelte 5 that came

out while we've been away.

So I mean, those benchmarks are very close to Vanilla JS, which are like crazy fast.



I did see a benchmark that was faster than Vanilla JS.

I don't know how that works.

There was one.

I saw one that was faster than.

Like how is that even possible?

Because I mean, really, it's still Vanilla JS under the hood, right?

What kind of incantations are they doing there on the maintainer team?

Yeah, it's absolutely some kind of alchemy or something. Thanks. I think I did see some like vials of green liquid and stuff so


But yeah, so I guess we'll hopefully be seeing more information soon

Yeah, I don't want to ruin the surprise. No. Yeah. Oh, you know, so I know something Sean I

I actually do want to ruin the surprise, but I'm not going to.

All right, so let's move on.

So this next topic is pretty sad.

So there was a community member called Ivan Hofer

who passed away during an ultra marathon.

So he was responsible for doing

the library called TypeSafe Internationalization,

or I18N, which has been probably,

I think it's pretty much been the go-to

internationalization library for Svelte users for a while.

So that's pretty sad.

It's crazy how, and it was pretty young as well.

So it's kind of crazy to me that these things happen.

- Especially when you're doing something

that's ultimately a healthy thing.

That's probably the biggest surprising thing for me.

Yeah, types of I18N, we actually launched it

literally the week after he died, unfortunately.

But the reason we chose it is because,

so he was driving a thing within the maintainers, actually,

that it would start off as a third-party thing

and then eventually become the kind of de facto solution

for SvelteKit for internalization.

So it's a real shame, actually,

'cause I would have loved to see him spearhead that work

and it become part of SvelteKit core.

I think someone is stepping up to take his place,

which is great that that can go on and continue.

Because it's a great library.

I don't know much about TypeScript, obviously,

but it's very type focused and that's good

because it means that you kind of get hinting around

when you're trying to translate your site.

You know, it's tricky to wire in,

but once it's wired in, it works really well.

I mean, we launched with it, no issue at all,

and it's in production now.

So I highly recommend the library.

- Yeah. - Yeah.

And it's such a shame

that I didn't actually get to talk to him.

- Yeah, I only talked to him briefly on Discord.

- Yeah.

- He submitted a Svelte Summit talk for last Svelte Summit.

- Oh, right.

- That you can go check out.

And it's about type safe, I18N.

- I would miss that one.

- And there's also like a,

I guess you could call it an obituary

where people can translate messages using,

So it's a site that Dominic, Dominic G, not the,

well, damn it, they're both called Dominic G.


- Yeah, yeah, it's complex.

- Oh, OG Dominic.

- Actually, now that's even more confusing.

- It's too hard now.


- Yeah.

- But yeah, so--

- It's Dominic, Dominic with a K and Dominic with a C.

- Yeah.

- Dominic with a K is the one who did the obituary, yes.

- Yes, yeah.

So that's basically a repo where you can add a translation

of a nice message that shows up on a website.

So that will be in the show notes.

So you can open a PR and add a language that's missing.

It's not there yet.

Yeah, I think that's it.

Go check out his talks and type safe I18N.

- Yeah, definitely use a library.

I think it's the most complete out there.

- Yep.

All right, so showcases.

There's been a couple of cool projects lately

that I wanted to highlight.

So this first one is called SvelteDroid,

and which is a, it's pretty cool.

It's like a super Metroid implementation for the web,

kind of using all sorts of different kind of technologies.

And the UI or the HUD,

heads up display stuff is made using Svelte.

So that's cool.

And I've reached out to-

- So I was gonna say,

I think the actual game engine is written in three JS,

I believe.

And yeah, the HUD's in Svelte.

I've never played the game,

but I mean, it looks a bit to me like Half-Life

or Doom or whatever.

I don't know if people play nowadays, these kids,

but yeah, it's really cool.

It's really, really cool.

Yeah, it's a first person kind of game.

And I've reached out to, I think he's called Jason?

No, Tyler, Tyler, and asked him to come on the podcast.

So maybe we can hear him talk about this himself.

I mean, it's quite a feat to build out in 3js as well.

I'm really impressed with it.

It's one of those things where I genuinely have no idea how I would even start that kind

of thing. It's kind of it's kind of also me that AI right now. Sorry, Sean, it's true.

I just don't know how to even begin.

Yeah. Next up, I wanted to highlight Joy of Code or Matija. He's also an ambassador, his

library called Animotion, which is a really cool library that you can use to make presentations

with animations and all this cool stuff.

And you can also use it to record videos.

So well, you would use it and then record the actual slides,

I guess.

So it's pretty nice.

Has anyone tried it?

I have not, but it certainly sounds interesting.

And but they're like--

he's done a video on it as well.

And it looks pretty nice.

Has anyone invented time yet? Because I think time is a thing that prevents me from trying

most of these things out. I mean, I would just love to like sit here and just try everything

because this stuff people build is amazing. And every time I do try something with some,

you know, with some manga, it's like, oh, I can use this and all these ideas come and

you apply to this and apply to that. And I just think if I had like time to do 100% of

these things, I would I would be so much more productive, but I wouldn't be, which is, you

know, the irony of the whole thing, but I would be more productive because I'd think

like, bang, problem, apply that, apply that, apply that. And it's just, yeah, it's the

curse, unfortunately.

Yeah. I mean, if you, if, like, if you, if you get kids, I hear that's a time sink.

No, not at all. They're fine. They're just barely, barely impact my time at all.

Okay, I think that's it for, unless we have other topics that you guys want to talk about,

we can move on to the most important sections of the show, unpopular opinions.

I'm not at my desk, I haven't got mine.

I guess we can let Anthony go first.

What's an unpopular opinion?

I mean, I don't really have any of these, do I?

Unpopular opinions, I haven't really thought of one this time, actually.

I mean, I'm a sass in a WeWork and it's a fostering place for unpopular opinions because

honestly, it's the most work hostile environment I've ever been into.

I really, really don't like it.

And then no one else.

So why are you here?

So why are we here?

Because my company is based here because it's kind of de facto, isn't it?

And I think what we're going to do is probably consider options because I don't think I don't

think anyone wants to be here, to be honest.

So I'll sit here quite happily here and say this is a bit crap.

my unpopular opinion. Who's next? I could go or Sean do you want to? Oh no I was going

to ask for parenting unpopular opinion so surely you must have some. Oh parenting, I

mean this is weird because I think that I don't really have unpopular opinions about

parenting I think what I have is so there's all these rules online and you have a baby

you start reading all this kind of crazy stuff about how to look after them, how to treat

and what's best for babies.

And one thing that always sticks in your mind

is this whole SIDS, this whole cot death thing, right?

Which is the most horrendous thing imaginable,

little babies dying in their cots

and you're asleep and they just die or whatever.

It's just, I mean, it's just unthinkable.

So you get so worried about that.

And one of the things they always tell you

is that you must keep them at a certain temperature

between 16 degrees and 20 degrees.

And our baby was born in summer, right?

Our room, our bedroom gets to 35 degrees

in the summer sometimes, right?

it's really, really hard to cool our house down.

So it's almost impossible to start with

to try and solve this problem.

But on top of that also,

my wife is very different to me in the way

how she keeps hot.

So my wife is never ever warm enough.

She will sleep in summer under a 13-tile blanket

with extra fleecy blankets, pajamas, you name it.

I will be like trying to peel my skin off

to be even more naked than I already am.

Like I literally, I will always overheat

and she will always freeze.

And so we're like, well, which one is the baby?

And it seems like it's a bit more towards Verity

because we literally took her in in 24 degrees in our room

on a regular basis and she gets cold.

And only when she's got a fleecy blanket

on top of her Merino wool bed bag,

which is on top of a Merino wool, like a sleep suit,

is she warm enough to sleep through.

And I swear, like, that's hot.

That's really hot.

And if you were to read any of this stuff online,

you'd be like, oh, we're just gonna kill her.

Like, but it's not like that.

Every baby is so different to the tune of maybe 20 degrees in body temperature.

Like it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy.

So yeah, my opinions are don't believe a thing you read online.

Don't assume that all this common, this very, very common advice is correct for your child.

You really have to just live and learn, I guess.

When my kids were babies, it was always just don't let them roll onto their stomach.

Like keep them on their backs.

And I've never heard the heat thing.

And so...

Oh, the heat was terrifying.

The rolling over one, so what the midwife told us is that in the 80s when I was born,

the advice was front sleeping.

So they literally would have to put your face down and you're caught to sleep.

And no one made the link in between.

There had to be like some stupid figure, a large percentage of cot death.

And someone went, "Do you think it's because they're on their face and they suffocate in

the blanket. Or maybe. And so the next advice was to put them apparently in the

90s or something side sleeping. So you sleep them on the side which is

impossible to sleep a baby on its side by the way. You can't do it. They just roll onto their backs.

I mean yeah babies when they're born can't actually roll all the way over

which is like why sleeping on their bellies is really bad and sleeping on their backs they can't turn

over themselves so sleeping on their backs is what they they said. Yeah so in the UK

at some point the National Health Service said sleep on the back is the

way to do it and after that happened the SIDS rates dropped like hundreds and

hundreds of times like oh okay that makes sense you know how did it take us

so long to learn this yeah and how did how did we go through all the stages of

different ways to sleep before we figured out maybe one where the mouth is

in the air is the best one. And so you call it COT death and you said SIDS but it

stands for Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Yes that's it. Someone that doesn't know

what we're talking about. Yeah yeah it's I mean it's sudden infant death syndrome

is a weird phrase because it's basically suffocation. I mean there's lots of

different other ones as well like overheating and stuff but suffocation

was and probably still is a main cause of it. Blankets in the cot because they

can suffocate toys in the car. So you can have a bed bag because it sticks to them

but you can't have anything else near the baby in the car because they might

get it in their mouth and then and then and then. Sounds super scary to have a

baby. It's a learning experience and it and you could definitely scare yourself

and you could also get scared but you know it's one of those things where the

trade-offs are worth it. I still go in every single night and make sure my

children are breathing. It is just I think forever ingrained in me now just

to like go in and check on them. Yeah, makes sense. And since the age of 12 months she

loves sleeping on her front. She won't sleep any other way so you know you have

to deal with it. You just make sure there's no obstructions. Oh I think after

like three months you're pretty safe. Really? It's 18 months they say in the UK

but again it's that online thing, it's what you read online. Apparently SIDS is

is most prolific up to 18 months. And after that, there's nearly no cases at all.

Source the internet.

Well, it's NHS, so it's a little bit more legitimate. But yeah, but certainly, yeah.

So you mentioned your wife and you have super different sleeping temperatures. Have you heard

about this eight sleep thing?

Yes, and I want one, but it's two and a half grand and then a subscription.

What? I'm not paying. Yeah. So if Sean and Brittany, if you haven't heard of this, it's like a

it's like a water cooled mattress cover with two zones that you can change individually so you can

sleep in the perfect temperature. And Alan Huberman recommends it. But like, yeah, yeah.

Maybe Alan Huberman could afford it. A mattress cover like two and a half grand

and a subscription, that sounds ridiculous. Yeah. I think for me it's the it's the subscription.

that really stays.

- Yeah, why do you need a subscription?

- Why?

- And then buy.

- Yeah.

- Exactly.

Because they can make money out of it, right?

- And they won't just sit there.

- And imagine the people buying these,

people buying these have tons of money, right?

So another 20 bucks a month for a subscription is nothing.

- All I'll say is that every good idea can be cloned.

- Mm-hmm, and some of them will.

- So I look forward to the clones.

- Yep.

All right.

I can go next.

So my unpopular opinion is that you don't need a lot of equipment to do content.

I've since, so they've been renovating my bathroom now for a while, and they're going to for nine weeks.

And I record at home. I create content at home. I have my camera and all of this stuff.

But I've decided that I'm just gonna sell all of that stuff

and buy like a, what's it called?

Like a lav mic instead?

- Yeah, I love them, I've got those.

- And then, yeah, and then I'm just gonna use an iPhone

to record the actual like face of myself.

So you don't need more.

- I did a talk with Zach Leatherman, a Levendy creator,

and we talked about Jamstack the other day

on Cloud Cannon, his new company, their YouTube channel.

And one of the people that were with us

was using their iPhone, and I swear it had better quality

than my DSLR.

And today we had so many audio troubles getting in here.

And I switched off my Yeti mic,

and I'm using the MacBook and the Mac camera,

and Antony's using the MacBook.

I mean, we're all like just like it's technology has come so far like who I'm slimming it.

I don't have a light.

Look at that.

Yeah, but I mean, it's not the Mac.

The FaceTime camera is not the greatest but the iPhone and like any smartphone I used

to use my smartphone as my camera.

It's fine.

It's good.

It's what I was saying.


All right.

That's not popular.

I don't think I don't know.

I feel like every time you go online, it's like always,

"Oh, you need this camera, you need this, this, this, and this."

If you listen to all the tech YouTubers and...

But there was this eraser camera, I think we talked about it a while back,

that seemed really good.

Scott's got one.

Scott Spence has a posh webcam.

Yeah, he seems to like it. It looks good.

-Yeah, it looks good. -Yeah.

We should have Scott back on.

I hear he has a new gig.

Yes, he has got a new gig.

And his full-time gig is running Svelte London for me because I tell you what, I don't have time to do it.

Yeah, I went to Svelte London and you weren't there.

So I may have attended more Svelte London than you.

Yeah, recently for sure.

At least this year.


- Yes.

- I guess I can quickly go on to mine,

unless Brittany, you have something that you wanna mention?

- I'm still thinking, so go for it.

- Okay, well, I can share one, I can donate one to you,

if you want to talk about it as a fellow ex-Netlify employee.

Jamstack is dead.

- Well, I just had this conversation.

I can't say Jamstack is dead, we just talked about it.


- Jamstack is alive.

Okay, so maybe I'm popular if it is just like it's alive

Yeah, so

What the conversation was about is Jamstack dead

Is it worth saving like does it need to have this hard line of like what is the philosophy behind?

Jamstack do we want the and

basically like Jamstack was about the community behind it and I think it can still be like

what Vite has become to the community and it can have an


But that doesn't mean it has to be you have to have this architecture or you're shamed from being

in this community and that's becoming agile

yeah, and then it also like started evolving and adapting because Netlify was playing catch-up to Next.js and

They started adding too much into it and evolving it that people didn't know what it was

and then now they're they killed off the

discord because there was nobody coming

to the community because they felt shamed

or they didn't know what JAMstack was

anymore and it lost what it was. I don't

think that means it's dead. I think

JAMstack, the philosophy, the architecture

still does exist. You can still create

performant sites that are static by default that have like, you can use

serverless functions, you can make them progressively enhanced, but performant by

default. And I think that falls into that JAMstack philosophy. You can have that

community around it. And that can live on without needing all of the other Netlify

garbage attached to it.

But it's forever going to be attached to Netlify.

What do you mean garbage?


These ex-Netlify people here have been a bit of a...

I said this in the thing.

I was like,

because Phil did a good job of explaining

why they switched the meaning of JAMstack

and why they brought in all of this other stuff.

it didn't have to mean just static content.

As the web was evolving, it had to evolve.


I was like, but in the same sense, Netlify is a business.

They also had to think that Next.js was just taking off

and leaving them in the dust.

That had to also play into it,

that they had to include Next.js in the JAMstack,

or that was going to exclude the biggest framework from the JAMstack.

And so I think that played into that evolving a little bit.

And that's what I meant by garbage.

Not that Netlify is garbage,

just that I think the business

attaches too much to the JAMstack.

And you can never separate the two.

- Yeah, yep, they're tight at the hip.

- Yeah.

- Cool, well, that was an unpopular discussion

or opinion, whatever that calls it.

But it's worth having because it happened in the time

that we were off, and it is a major discussion

topic for web development.

I have a slightly different one, which

is that I don't think it's unpopular right now,

but I think it was unpopular as of a month ago, which

is that Bun has beat Deno in terms of the new JavaScript

runtime race.

And it's, to me, very interesting.

And I think I'll be honest,

something that I was wrong about.

I had looked at Deno as the attempt

that had far more backing because it was run by Ryan Dahl

and had sort of module,

sort of the ESM future of JavaScript in mind,

whereas something with backer compatibility with Node

can run by someone with relatively less experience

in open source, which struggle.

And as you guys have all seen in the past month,

I think that opinion has completely reversed.

And now people are much more likely to try BUN

purely because of the faster installation times

and nothing else.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then they'll learn about the kind of

requiring import the same file

and all that kind of fun stuff.

And it's like Deno, Deno, Deno, whatever it's called,

you know, I guess it's, you know,

it gave you TypeScript on Node,

but I didn't hear that much outside of that.

That's like one thing and it didn't interest me anyway.

Whereas Bun has just solved loads of problems,

which is, well, we think it has.

- That's the marketing.

And I think the marketing is definitely a part of it,

but also I guess the prioritization of what is important

in terms of people's pain points.

- Yeah.

- Deno also shipped NPM support.

So you can import NPM modules in DNO,

because guess what?

Ryan wrote the node resolution algorithm,

so he knows how to support NPM packages.

It just wasn't part of the original design goal,

and he's basically had to compromise at every stage,

because Bunn went for full node compatibility,

and now we are where we are.

And it's very interesting, because it turns out

that speed is just a very effective marketing tactic,

and Deno for whatever reason,

never communicated that as a priority.

- Well, I guess, yeah, I guess what I mean,

and not necessarily the node capacity,

but the fact it can import, it can do import

and require in the same file, CGS and ESM.

That was like a major pain point

that you see again and again and again on Twitter.

And to go and attack that and address that problem,

that for me is a real like,

that's got people talking about it.

Everyone likes speed, right?

That's cool, but that thing there was like,

that's solidified everyone's mind,

I must try this thing.

It solves my massive pain point

that I will encounter at some point.

And that's pretty clear.

Katie: That's what's drawing me to it,

but I did see something about that support

may be slower for some things to bun.

I haven't tried bun yet, and I don't know.

Is that going to be true?

Is it going to be slower to support future stuff?

I don't think so.

It depends on what WebKit supports, right?

Or what's it called?

JavaScript Core is the JavaScript engine of WebKit.

So Node is based on V8, right?

So that's Chrome.

But Bun is based on the Safari version.

And so it depends on what the Safari people

put in JavaScript Core, I guess.

But they're supposed to be compatible with each other,

But as we all know, there are issues with browsers on the web not doing the same thing.

So I think you'll always find incompatibility with something that basically tries to implement

something else exactly.

If BUN can do this ESMCJS support, why can we not get this in Node?

Because I understand, and I could be wrong, but I understand it's because of the way it's

done is fundamentally different. The way import works is async, it's a completely different

paradigm. And I think that unless you build it from the ground up with the view to support

both, it's very, very hard to retrofit because you've gone down a certain path and a lot

of decisions hinge off that initial decision. I did see that it could be done in Node, but

it would be very, very difficult to do that in Node.

Yeah, I've tried using Bun for a SvelteKit project.

And it's really nice.

I'm using specifically the SQLite support,

which is built into Bun.

So you don't have to import a library for that.

But I hear there are some missing features that

are apparently very important to people.

So you can't really use it yet.

I'm not sure if this is actually a real 1.0,

or if it should have been maybe a 0.9 or like--

- Well, it's 1.0 now.

- Yeah, yeah, right.

But you get what I mean, right?

- I think it's testing public. - It's very close,

but it's not quite there yet.

- I think it's testing public.

Everyone's obsessed with 1.0,

and there's a whole movement around

don't ever release version one, right?

It's a question that's asked a lot.

Is SvelteKit ready?

is before 1.0, when's 1.0, why do you want 1.0?

Because then it's ready for production.

Well, it's not, it's just a number.

It doesn't mean anything, right?

It may mean stability in the API,

but that depends on who's doing it.

- Theoretically, less breaking changes

until you have another future version.

- Yeah, but it's still up to the maintainers who do it

to decide to respect SEMVIR in that way.

There's nothing saying one is good and zero is not good.

But I think that, yeah, I would do what he's done

and rush it out a bit earlier than it's ready, ready,

because you want to get feedback and test that way.

And that's how you find what's important to people.

But I think I wouldn't put it in production anyway.

Definitely not yet, but I think for a while.

I wouldn't use it in dev environments only,

because that's definitely-- you're

putting in production something different to what

you've got in a dev environment.

That's always bad.

So I think it's good that it's out there,

and we can use it for small stuff and experiment,

but it's just not ready yet.

It's just not ready in real world terms.

The other thing is I did try the other day with my API

and Mongo does not like it at all or vice versa.

Like there was loads of issues there.

And I think one thing that someone else has mentioned

is that the support for whatever the stuff

that is needed by sharp,

which is a lot of native bindings,

does not work and will not work for a while

'cause it's quite hard to implement.

I think Jared might even said that himself.

But yeah, so that will,

I try to avoid native library where I can,

but that will be a blocker for a lot of people as well

that use native stuff.

- Brittany, do you have a?

- Oh, I feel like mine was the Jamstack stuff.

- Yeah, I guess yours was the Jamstack one.

All right, cool, cool.

- Cool.

- Then it's the final section of the show, the picks.

Sean, you have one?

I like your pick as well, by the way.

Let's hear about it.

- Okay, so I'll start off with one.

I think this past week was the single best week of TV

in maybe the past two years that I've seen.

So we had both Foundation Season 2, Episode 9

and Ahsoka Episode 4, both of which are very good.

And I think after a little bit of a slump

as the Marvel TV shows declined in quality,

everyone hates on Secret Invasion.

That was not very good,

but I think Apple is picking it back up

and Star Wars is picking it back up.

So highly recommend catching up on Foundation.

through season one and two and it's really good episode nine. It might feel slow but it's all

building up towards. I think I've been calling this sort of the Game of Thrones strategy. Game

of Thrones famously the episode nines of every season are the big budget episodes where a lot

happens and it's very high budget, a lot of action and that seems to be what's happening

for Foundation. And yeah, I highly recommend it. I feel like if I talk more about it, it would

be a spoiler for it. It's basically an adaptation of the Isaac Asimov novels, but with an addition

of something that they call the Cleonic Dynasty, which is a completely, it was a concept introduced

just for the TV show, and apparently the only thing that people like about it. So everything

adapted from the books, the sort of Gale and Salvo Hardin storyline was very boring to most viewers,

But the stuff that was invented just for the TV show is very compelling and drives a lot of viewers.

I think there was some resolution there this season, but I like it anyway.

It's just very good escapist science fiction. So that's my recommendation.

Very nice production value as well.

All of the graphics and everything is really nice.

I thought a couple of the earlier episodes were sluggish, but then towards the end of the season it was really good.

So fight through those episodes is what I'm saying.

It's funny you mentioned the part that they added to the show was the part that people liked.

I feel like usually it's the other way around with adaptations.

Like The Witcher, people are not really liking the direction there, etc.

I mean, so much so that Henry Cavill left The Witcher, right?

right? And unfortunately also got dubbed for Superman. I wonder what he's going to be doing

now. Oh, I think he's going to be working on Warhammer. Yeah, Warhammer TV show or something.

Or a movie. Yeah. So the explanation for Foundation is that the book itself is extremely

hard to adapt into a TV show because it spans thousands of years in timeline and therefore

the characters change a lot. So in order to make the TV show make sense, they had to invent

characters that would be effectively immortal and that's what they did without giving it too much

away. No, that's a good summary. Have you guys seen the Wheel of Time series? Yeah. Yeah. Have

you read the books? No, I haven't started them. Yeah, because this is a show that I was very

excited about but I was very disappointed because I've read the books

and it's nothing like the books. They've like changed everything. It's only like

the characters in name basically and then everything is just happening

randomly that happens in the books but it's it's yeah don't read the books if

you like the show. This is gonna ruin the show. There are like 14 books.

Another good TV recommendation that we watched was Wool is the name of the book

but the name of the TV show is "Silo" on Apple TV.

- Yes.

- It was so good and I'm reading the book now

and it is very close to the book.

There are some things that they changed

just to like move the story along a little faster,

but I'm really enjoying the book now.

- It's very good.

- Yeah.

- I've watched that as well.

Definitely something you should watch

if you like Foundation Sean.

All right, picks.

I don't have one, so you guys go ahead.

- That was my pick, I guess.

- Anthony.

- I have one.

- Okay.

- Yeah, I have one.

So I have a condition.

So what it is, it's not, I mean, it is and it isn't.

So there's a thing called Restless Leg Syndrome or RNS,

and some people have it,

and no one's ever been able to explain why it happens,

what it is, how to solve it, how to cure it.

You look online, it's like, oh, you can't cure it,

it's just a thing.

And it's when you get really tired or exhausted,

your legs just want to move.

You can't not move your legs.

People tap their feet 'cause of it sometimes.

You see them tap their feet,

probably 'cause they've got RLS.

It's like a pain that starts in your muscles.

And if I try and hold my leg still when I've got it,

like it will build and build and build

'til I have to just like squirm.

And like you're trying to lie in bed,

trying to sleep and your legs are squirming.

No one's ever like been able to say what this is

and doctors don't know.

And I was just randomly mentioning it to my sister-in-law,

and she goes, "Oh yeah, it's a magnesium deficiency."

I mean, what, what?

And so I'm like, "What do you mean?"

She's like, "Oh, hang on a minute.

"It comes back with this, like a jar of tablets,

"magnesium 3 and 8 that you got from Amazon."

I'm like, "What?

"No, it's not.

"You're making this up."

She's like, "Yeah, it just solves it."

I'm like, "All right, give me them."

So she gave me these two tablets, just magnesium,

and half an hour, and it was gone.

And I was just like, what?

My entire life I didn't know this was a thing

and now it's just solved it.

And so I took these tablets when I get it

and it solves it.

Half an hour it's gone, finished.

And it's a magnesium deficiency.

And, and the best bit is that you can just take these

because if you have this,

you generally have a magnesium deficiency.

You take these to sleep

and they're like the best sleeping tablets ever.

So I can wake up feeling like a train's hit me

in the morning just by taking these completely natural,

know, it's like it takes vitamins, you know, and honestly, like the sleep I get from having

those is amazing. It's so solid. And sleep is good, actually. So yeah, magnesium three

and eight. I think that's how you pronounce it. I don't know. But it's good. It's good

stuff. So next up, we were doing a sponsor spot for athletic greens. No, I'm kidding.

Oh, yeah, actually doing it. I was gonna say, yeah, no, no, no, no, no. So. So I think that's

But thanks everyone for watching and listening to us.

And yeah, we'll see you next week.


Hey, it's Kevir.

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