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Zero Click Marketing is a marketing strategy podcast about content marketing, audience research, and how brands grow when clicks matter less. Hosted by Amanda Natividad, Chief Evangelist at SparkToro and Co-Author of the book, "Zero Click Marketing," the show explores how marketers reach audiences, build influence, and earn attention in a zero-click internet. New to the show? Start with Episode 2: What Zero Click Marketing Actually Is.
[00:00:00] Amanda Natividad: Hey, friends. I am bringing this conversation back because it covers something I think this podcast really needs. A while back, I joined the Talking Too Loud podcast, a show produced by Wistia. It's hosted by founder and CEO Chris Savage and producer Sylvie Lubow. I joined to discuss zero-click marketing, and we did, but the episode was ultimately about marketing uncertainty.
[00:00:28] How do you know marketing is working when the results take time? The customer sees you on LinkedIn, hears you on a podcast, remembers you three weeks later, but only because a colleague name-dropped you in Slack, searches your name, and then buys. Measuring success ends up becoming a sort of balancing act between ongoing measurement, trusting the work, being patient, and sharp judgment, or at the very least, hard-won intuition.
[00:00:59] I think I'm not doing this justice, and this sounds pretty squishy, but you will learn more in this episode, which is especially important because I'm battle testing these ideas real time with people, one of whom is a literal CEO. stay tuned because in a few weeks, Chris Savage will be joining this show, the Zero Click Marketing podcast.
[00:01:21] We're gonna do a sort of part two of the one you're going to listen to now. Anyway, I'll see you next week, friends. Enjoy this episode
[00:01:29] I'm Amanda Natividad. Welcome to Zero Click Marketing.
[00:01:37] Chris Savage: For years, marketing has been built around one idea, get that click. But what if that's not actually what drives growth anymore? The internet has changed from, you know, it being this click-through environment where we could track everything to an in-platform consumption environment. Today, we're talking too loud with Amanda Natividad about zero-click marketing.
[00:01:59] This idea that your content should create impact without relying on a click. Because the internet has changed. People aren't leaving platforms the way that they used to. Zero-click marketing is about creating that real value where your audience already spends time. And the things that actually drive demand, trust, recall, preference, they don't always show up in your analytics.
[00:02:20] Amanda Natividad: If you only optimize for clicks, you will certainly undercount what's working and over-reward what's easiest to track. So if you're a marketer trying to figure out what's actually driving demand for your brand and how to create content people remember, not just click, this episode is for you
[00:02:41] Chris Savage: Amanda, so good to have you here. So nice to meet you. So great to meet you. We're doing it. Yeah. We're really doing it. And, um, I'm excited to talk loud with you about zero-click marketing, and that's something I know you're writing a book about, um, you explore about on your podcast. I've read many posts from you that have been very enlightening.
[00:03:00] You guys were very early on something that is affecting all of us who are marketing every day. And so, um, I'm super excited to have you here and, like, to dig deep in on this. And, uh, it is ... Zero-click marketing is pretty different from what we were really taught when you think of any of us who are professionally taught marketing or those of us who just consumed it all online and, and learned.
[00:03:22] Um, so I kinda wanna start with the beginning, and I'd love if you could describe zero-click marketing and, um, yeah, why is this happening? What is this big shift? Yeah. So here's... I'll kind of say the problem first, and then what zero-click marketing is. So basically, the thesis of this is the internet has changed from, you know, it being this click-through environment where we could track everything to an in-platform consumption environment.
[00:03:49] Amanda Natividad: But most marketers are still using that sort of click-first mental model. So effectively, we are now marketing for an attention economy in which platforms keep people inside the walled gardens, outbound links are throttled, and so the better move is to meet your audience where they already are. And so zero-click marketing is about creating that real value where your audience already spends time, so in their feeds, inboxes, search results, communities, podcasts, and now the, you know, AI interfaces.
[00:04:23] So the click still matters, but it's increasingly the result of influence, not the only signal that influence happened. So if you only optimize for clicks, you will certainly undercount what's working and over-reward what's easiest to track. So what, what should you optimize for instead if you're not optimizing for clicks?
[00:04:43] I mean, you optimize for the influence, right? Figure out how you can get people to know who you are, remember you, or understand you, remember you, like you, and then search for you when they're ready. And so when I talk about this, I say, like, there are ways we can measure this stuff, right? You can look at things like your social media analytics, and that would just be to see like, okay, the, the p- the content we're posting on social media, do people like it?
[00:05:10] Are they engaging with it? But then you can also look at things like branded search, like lift in branded search over time. Um, and then maybe if you are I guess may- this might not work for every team. It works really well for us at SparkToro. But at SparkToro, when we see, like, bumps in signups or people who are, you know, becoming customers of our tool, it's relatively easy for us to track what happened in that, in the days leading up to that.
[00:05:37] Mm-hmm. And so my colleague Rand Fishkin and I can just look in our Google Analytics and say, "Oh, Rand actually, you know, he spoke at, like, three conferences that week. That's probably why this happened." So I think having that kind of tight alignment, too, amongst your marketing team will help you be able to trace back what's working and what isn't.
[00:05:56] Now, I don't know if, if it's like, okay, for sure, you know, because of Rand's keynotes, we got 300 signups. We got 210. I don't know, right? Yeah. But what I do know is, well, we got a bump in signups. People are searching for us. In Google Search Console, they're searching for Rand's name and, you know, the content or the keywords related to what he talked about.
[00:06:23] You know, so those are things that show, like, okay, this matters. It's making an impact. I don't know the dollar for dollar, you know, ROI, but it's working. How do you think people should think about this who have, like, a pa- paid campaigns going, too? And do you guys have a bunch of paid campaigns alongside a lot of the organic work that you're doing?
[00:06:41] Chris Savage: And, like, how do you- No ... pull those apart? We don't. So we don't have, we don't have any marketing budget for that. Like, our marketing budget is tools, my, my salary, Rand's salary. Yeah, yeah. Wow. You know, um, yeah, so we don't do any paid. But I will say, so I guess I would say, I guess caveat, I don't have super tactical yesterday experience- Yeah
[00:07:03] Amanda Natividad: in some of these paid tools. But what I would say, and I think most performance marketers would agree, is when your organic content, like organic activity engagement, is doing well, it helps the paid side be a little bit more efficient or economical. Totally. Yeah. Um, well it's inter- I... It's making me think of a moment, um, that I've talked about a lot at Wistia.
[00:07:24] Chris Savage: It was, like, a big moment for us. Mm-hmm. But when we first had, um, a video, it was on site back then, but like just completely take off, get tons of organic sharing on social media, and it was, like, a behind-the-scenes video of who worked at Wistia. It was like when there was six of us. There's nothing in this video except, like, us just, like, sitting there, like, looking like we're working, you know?
[00:07:43] It was, like, so stupid. And we were so embarrassed by it, but it went viral, I think, because it was, like, this, like, so unique for the time to show tiny startup, crappy office, like, here we are. Um, and it drove a bunch of traffic And then we watched and there weren't, like, there were some signups. It was hard to see the signups that came directly from that traffic.
[00:08:04] Mm-hmm. But this bump in brand continued for like a few days. And people searching for Wistia went way up. And then we had a two-week trial back then. Two weeks later, we got a ton of new customers. And I watched the moment occur of like people came in to see this behind the scenes teen video. They had a connection to us, then they figured out what we were.
[00:08:23] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. And then they actually purchased. And it was like, "Oh, I'm seeing it happen even though there's a lot happening that can't be tracked." And it was one of those moments I think about a lot that like really impacted how we market here. Yeah. Where this like, this trust that if you can create a great experience for somebody in one place, at the conference, at the booth, on social, in a video, uh, on a podcast, that it can then actually, yeah, if it really worked, it'll show up in another way.
[00:08:50] Chris Savage: But it's, that link is, is, has always been hard and is now basically impossible to see. Yeah. That's a really good example too because it, it wasn't viral for the sake of viral, right? It wasn't like, it wasn't you all like trying to glom onto some trend that was already happening. It was this thing you were doing that was related to your company, maybe not directly related to what you sell, right?
[00:09:13] Amanda Natividad: But it was adjacent. Yeah. But it took off. People liked it. It helped you get remembered and people sought you out later. And that's probably one of those things that at the time it was like, "Oh, it's going viral. Cool. I, I don't know what's gonna happen," right? Like it's like- We had no idea. Yeah. Right. It was very shocking.
[00:09:31] Chris Savage: Yeah. It did- it was one of those things you just d- just don't expect to occur. Yeah. And it was also just the like, this reminder, which I think about a lot now with all of the AI-fication of stuff, of like the humans are getting more important, not less. Mm-hmm. And so when, if you can create that connection with somebody, then like that impact can be so real and it, it can actually dictate how someone spends their time and what they pay attention to.
[00:09:56] Um, so yeah, let's go deeper on like what that looks like with zero-click marketing. Like if someone, can you give us an example of, of, it can be from you all of, of something that you've done recently that you're like, "Yes, this is... I think if people can replicate this, like they can wrap their minds around this and they can make it happen"?
[00:10:13] Amanda Natividad: Ooh, yeah. So let me think. I have a couple of different examples that come to mind. Um, okay. So I kind of tend to, I don't tend to think about things, and maybe this is to my detriment. We'll see what I'm about to say. I don't know what I'm gonna say. No, I mean- That's how it should always be. I, I- What I'm about to say, I don't know what I'm gonna say.
[00:10:35] Chris Savage: I, I literally don't know what words are coming out of my mouth. But I trust myself, and so get ready, world. Oh my God, that was amazing. Um, okay, so I was gonna say, I don't tend to think about things as B2B versus B2C. Yeah. I think about things in categories and industries. So the way I think about zero-click marketing is, okay, let's say you're marketing in the use case of We are an ex- we are a product in an existing category and we have a lot of competitors, right?
[00:11:06] Amanda Natividad: It would be like, you know, Lyft versus Uber where it's basically the same thing. Mm-hmm. And so you have a lot of competition. So I think what you do there, a key play is, well, what's unique about you? It's probably your perspective, right? Like actually using Uber and Lyft as the example, they are the same product.
[00:11:25] Mm-hmm. But something that's very different about them is Uber has always been about how do we bring things to people, like food, bringing people to other people, right? But like- Pa- packages, right? Like- All the like- Yeah. But Lyft, and maybe this has changed in recent years, but Lyft had always been about how do you bring people to places.
[00:11:47] Mm-hmm. So Uber was how do we bring things to people, Lyft was how do we bring people to places. And I think for a little while that was their differentiator in some of their like secondary or tertiary markets, right? Where like Uber was like all in on Uber Eats, like food delivery, but Lyft for a time was trying to do like HIPAA compliant, um, rides for patients going to hospitals for their appointments.
[00:12:15] Sylvie Lubow: Mm. Right? Those are very different sorts of things, and they're very different in terms of like the perspective, the mission, the messaging. So all that to say is a kind of weird example of when you are in a highly competitive market, think about, well, what's different about your point of view? Maybe you could have a contrarian take, a lesser-known opinion, original data, stuff like that.
[00:12:39] Chris Savage: So l- let me go deeper there, which is when you have like a really strong opinion and it enters into your marketing, do you think that that strong opinion should be everywhere, like on your website, on your social content- Mm ... in your ads, or should it be different in different places? And what I mean by that is like your website be like, "Well, this is just our product and it's, you know, I'm putting our product forward without as much of a perspective.
[00:13:02] But like the way I talk about it when it's me on LinkedIn is in a very opinionated way." Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, that's a super interesting question. No one's ever asked me that. I think it would be, I think in an ideal world, yes, it's consistent and it doesn't have to be consistent in the same like word for word, like copy and paste thing.
[00:13:24] Amanda Natividad: If it happens to work for that situation, great, right? But I think it's- How do you go back to kind of the original, the ethos, the meaning behind that contrarian take, if it's a contrarian take, and how does that inform everything else? Because I do think it'd be really interesting if you have, like, the scope and the budget to test it across your homepage, all your social channels, all your paid campaigns, and, you know, employee messaging.
[00:13:50] That would be really cool to see, like, okay, how does this perform after we do this for, like, two, three whole months, and then go back a, a few months from then and look to see if that worked. Mm-hmm. That would be super interesting. I think another thing you can do is if you have multiple contrarian ta- uh, you know, if you have a couple that you wanna test, that's when a paid campaign can be really helpful because you'll, you know, you'll spend the money to get the impressions to see what's going to convert better.
[00:14:19] So, like, you could do that. Yeah, I, I think there's just, like, as you start thinking about what gains influence- Mm-hmm ... and what gains attention, I find that, like, you know, if you're vanilla, it doesn't work. Like, it, it, it do- Yeah ... it can't work. It- It can't ... you need something, right? Yeah. And then, uh, there's also, I, I feel like I see...
[00:14:40] Chris Savage: And this is different by social channel. LinkedIn, you see this a little bit. X, it's only this. It's, like, utter chaos and people, like, saying, like, the craziest crap they could possibly say. But it does seem to work for some people. That it's like- Yeah ... oh, wow, they're getting attention. Uh, what I would always, what I always think about is, like- I know they can't have those extreme takes on their actual company website, and they don't usually.
[00:15:03] Amanda Natividad: Mm-hmm. And so is it not even working at all? Because like, yeah, you're getting attention in one place, but it's not the right type because it doesn't actually connect back to the customer. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And attention, attention doesn't always mean influence. Attention doesn't always mean recall. Yeah. It doesn't always mean trust.
[00:15:23] Sylvie Lubow: So like, I guess my question to you, Amanda, is like, does zero-click marketing have to check a lot of those boxes? Like, does it have to be attention and trust and recall, or can you really like do the thing that like you see on Twitter where it's like I would categorize that as like all attention. Mm-hmm.
[00:15:44] Like they're not really thinking about the other components as much. Yeah. I think I would just say like, well, what attention do you want? Like, what do you think is going to happen as a result of this? Like, you know, it's the whole thing between ... It's the difference between a spicy take and a spiky take. I like th- I'm stealing this from, from- Spicy and spiky.
[00:16:07] Chris Savage: Yeah. I have not heard this. Yeah. Oh, I'm stealing this from Wes Kao. Wes Kao, who, you know, co-founded Alt MBA with Seth Godin, co-founded Maven. She has a thing called a spiky take. So a spiky take is basically a hill you're willing to die on. Mm-hmm. It's not, it's not hot take for the sake of ruffling feathers.
[00:16:22] Amanda Natividad: Mm-hmm. It's, it's, "No, I have a strong point of view and I will die on this hill defending it." Versus spicy take is just like, "Hot take." Like- ... "Your content sucks." You know where it's like you wouldn't, you don't mean that. Yeah. But you're like, it's like the stir the pot kind of content. Mm. Yeah, yeah. Where you're like the, the attention you're trying to garner is like, yeah, like spiciness.
[00:16:48] Sylvie Lubow: Like- Yeah I don't know. I'm doing a face. I know listeners, if you're listening, I'm making a really weird face with my eyeballs and I'm- She's, yeah, l- yeah, she's like kind of moving her head around and- I'm bobbing my head ... yeah, she's, yeah. She's got her hand, uh, around her chin. Um, just reminding the listeners.
[00:17:03] Chris Savage: Okay, okay, okay, okay. Okay. But this is reminding me, you know, this is reminding me of some content I, I saw- ... on a social platform this morning where somebody was like, you know those, those posts where people, where you say like, "Comment, you know, your favorite emoji and I'll send you the playbook." Yeah. Right?
[00:17:20] Amanda Natividad: And you see a bunch of people commenting on it. And so this person was like, "You know, you c- here, here's a really interesting use case for your, like, cold outbound. Like, you can scrape all the people who, like, d- left this comment, use Claude to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then like do this," and like, I don't know, like, dry up four lakes just to find out, to g- to get it to pull up a list for you that would be like your warm outbound.
[00:17:49] Which is- Hmm ... you know, uh, whatever, environmental impact questions aside, it's interesting, right? Like, okay, that is a way to do something with the intention that you're getting. However- That is, yep ... however, here's where I would push back, is you, depending on what you're selling, right? Now, if you're s- if you're slinging like $5 Notion templates, that's probably fine.
[00:18:15] But if you are Wistia, right? And you are selling an actual tool that you want companies, teams to get value out of, do you think any of those, like, heads of marketing who might be your ICP are gonna comment like, "Oh, my fruit emoji, I want that playbook," right? So I, I question that where like, depends on what kind of attention you want and from whom, because there's stuff like that where I think If you're marketing to heads of director, VP, they're not commenting to get free playbooks, especially in public, you know?
[00:18:52] Chris Savage: No, not in public. Right? Like- They, they might ask publicly- They're sliding into the DMs. Yeah ... they're not, they're not letting anybody know they want that playbook. They're sliding into the DMs and saying- But I, but this is- ... "Let me get a playbook." Yeah. I, but I think this is interesting 'cause it's getting us to that point that I think that's like an obvious question if you're listening is, okay, so you're saying it's about attention and it's about recall, and you're saying it's gonna be hard to track.
[00:19:13] So how do you know if it's working? And what I'm hearing from you, and what my experience has been similar, is like you basically have to have a lot more confidence that the inputs, the stuff that you're putting out there- Mm-hmm ... aligns really tightly to the things that your ICP is, is gonna care about, right?
[00:19:32] Yeah. So it's like I make a thing, I'm pretty sure my ICP is gonna be into it. It's helpful, it's genuine, it's got research. It's got something about it that's got a very different take. And if a lot of people are engaging, then I have to trust the algorithm to get it to the right folks, and trust that the input was valuable, right?
[00:19:50] And is that how you think of... That's how I think about this, but is that how you also think about this? Yeah, I do. I d- I think about like that. The other thing I think about is, and I wish, I wish more companies, teams, I don't know, CEOs maybe thought of it this way, is I think a lot about how marketing sustains the business, and how marketing sustains the business beyond just bringing in new customers and retaining existing customers.
[00:20:17] Amanda Natividad: I think about how, what is the internal impact marketing can make to make some of the other things, some of the other departments in the company more sustainable, right? So like I would be thinking about like And this is, and I say this as somebody who is a content marketer who came up through, like, journalism and, like, thought leadership type of content, not so much SEO, where I've been, like, beating the drum of like, "We have to have high quality stuff," you know?
[00:20:47] And colleagues, team members would be like, "What do you mean high quality? Like, that's so subjective." And I'm like, "No, it's you need high quality stuff that people that you admire in your audience actually want to read," right? Like, there's a difference between trying to rank for, like, how to make a video and like, being the first people, the, being the first brand that people think of when they are thinking like, "I need a really good video hosting tool that is going to ha- cover all of my key needs as a business, but also be a good experience for my audience," right?
[00:21:23] Those are two different things. And so I went about this like, okay, if I wanna have higher quality content, then this content needs to do more than just get some organic traffic. Like, this content needs to ... I wanna do some, like, help education oriented content, and I want the customer success team to be able to leverage the stuff.
[00:21:45] And so back when I worked at Fitbit B2B, a lot of what I did was a sort of, like, customer success enablement, pro- marketing enablement, sales enablement, where, like, I would do things like spend a whole month heads down just on case studies. Mm-hmm. And I would get these packaged up into PDFs, and so that I could go to sales and be like, "Here you go.
[00:22:09] Here's the book. If you wanna drop this into your next meeting, there you go." And that's the kind of thing that you wouldn't really measure through traditional marketing metrics, right? Especially when it's a packaged PDF or a- Yeah ... physical book. But it's the kind of thing that has an impact on another team.
[00:22:24] Where sales can be like, "Great, this makes my job a little bit easier." Or customer success can be like, "Awesome, now I have some examples to look to when, when, like, my clients are asking me, like, how do I do this? I can point to this case study booklet." So I think about things as sustaining the business, and I think that's a, I feel like it's a healthier way to look at marketing, and especially content marketing, where it's kind of famous for being a little bit of a cost center and it's hard to get ROI from.
[00:22:52] Sylvie Lubow: That's so interesting, 'cause I feel like that happens. Like, like m- different teams do utilize marketing materials. Mm-hmm. But I don't know that they- Like, I don't even know if that, if someone would describe that as, like, a function of marketing. You know what I mean? Like, at least not in, in my mind, I think of marketing as being so external facing- Yeah
[00:23:16] even though, even though it has, like, internal benefits as a byproduct. So it, it, it really does change how I think about marketing and- Yeah. It's, you, you're, well, you're talking about, like, basic... I mean, what I'm hearing you say is, like, if you make amazing enablement, your confidence can help the sales team.
[00:23:37] Chris Savage: And if you make amazing enablement that happens to be public for everyone, it's actually gonna help a lot of other people. You're just, but just like with the sales team thing, they're usually not coming back saying like, "Our close rate changed just 'cause of this one enablement thing." Mm-hmm. You know? It's like that- Yeah
[00:23:50] trust that's really easy when it's like I'm handing it to a customer success manager who's gonna bring it to a customer. Like I... They, they told me, "It went great." Like, oh, awesome. Then for some reason we don't trust it as much when we're putting it on LinkedIn and yeah, we got 50,000 views. Everyone's like, "Is that good?"
[00:24:08] Like, I don't know. Like, is, is it, like... Are, is there enough comments on it? Who's commenting on it? Like, it's like judged differently- Mm-hmm ... or something. Yeah. What do you think of that? Like, as the CEO, right? Like, like if I'm telling you, like, "Hey, I want, I wanna be judged on my job in part, you know, based on how my work is impacting the rest of the company," like, do you like that?
[00:24:34] Amanda Natividad: Do I like it? Uh, no, I do like it. And- Check the box, yes or no. No, of course, of course I do. And I think, I think it's other... I think that the thing that I've noticed is, like, you know, we have, um... There'll be times where we do, like, tons of enablement internally, and- Mm-hmm ... uh, it's almost always, it's just very loudly, loud and clear that it comes through as like...
[00:25:00] Chris Savage: Like there's something on my desktop right now that is this, like, we call it, like, the spaghetti, the spaghetti graph, and it shows all the different tools that people would have to use, uh, like, to accomplish the same thing on the other side they can accomplish with Wistia. And the first time I saw this, I was like, "This is awesome."
[00:25:14] Like, I, just so visceral. And then the sales team started using it in sales calls, and like, it's so great, and the success team started using it. It's become this important thing. And I know it's important because these people that I trust who are at the company have told me. I think that, though, I think we judge a lot of marketing work really differently, just, like, by default, and we have these very, very high expectations for it.
[00:25:38] And then if you were to take this graphic and put it on social, and it, let's say it got 20 likes and it said it had 2,000 views, I think people would probably look at it as, like, a failure. Be- because our marketing numbers were so, like, anchored towards these big massive seeing, seeing everyone else's viral campaigns, you know?
[00:25:59] Um, yet probably if 2,000 people saw it and there were 20 comments and they're actually engaged, like, I mean, how long would it take us, uh, a CSM to have that many conversations? Like, it, it would take a while. And I think that, that, uh, that's more what I find interesting is that we judge these things so differently.
[00:26:16] Yeah. And we should to, you know, because, like, there is more scale you can have on the marketing side, but I, that's, that's kind of what it makes me think about. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I do think it's fair obviously to, to judge these things differently, but I do wish more organizations looked at it this way.
[00:26:33] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. And the other thing I wish more people did, I wish more people were willing to share their benchmarks. You know? I always think about that too. Like, 2,000 impressions, is that good? I, I think about this now, I think in this time of, like, where organic engagement is just so important on social media. I'm always wondering, like, if my LinkedIn post gets 5,000 impressions, I'm like, "Is that good?"
[00:26:58] Sylvie Lubow: Yeah. It feels like it's not. I have the same- You know, it's, yeah ... I have the same exact. Oh, yeah. It's- Because right, you're like, okay, I, I don't... First of all, it's hard for humans to, like, really comprehend big numbers. Like- Yeah ... we have a hard time doing that. Mm-hmm. And second of all, it's like, I find myself asking ChatGPT actually all the time.
[00:27:16] I'm like, what are, what's like an average B2B podcast like listenership? How many listeners? How many plays? How many, how many minutes? How, what's the percentage of minutes that your average listener and viewer will consume? Because nobody puts this out there. Nobody puts it out there. Um, so who knows if ChatGPT is right in what it's telling me.
[00:27:39] I don't know. It's, yeah, I agree that there's not enough benchmarking, and it's so easy, especially, I mean, also the other thing about zero click marketing is I'm very sold on it, to say it, and it's 'cause I've experienced it myself very directly, right? So, like, I'm posting all the time myself, and I see, oh sh*t, like, the things I used to post, and we'd link to Wistia, like, and it would always get, it doesn't work.
[00:28:02] Chris Savage: It just doesn't get... So I've lived and breathed it to the point of, like, I've internalized it so deeply that as CEO, it's like, I'm like, "We must do this. Like this, we have to. Like, it would be crazy not to." Um, but like, I've, I have noticed a lot that what always convinces me and pushes me beyond is, like, in-person interactions- Mm
[00:28:21] where people will tell me funny things, uh, that they've seen that we've done. And that is almost for some reason, even though it's a really small number of people who I have these in-person interactions with, they are what stick in my mind, where it's like- Well, that's recall, right? Exactly. That's what it is.
[00:28:35] Sylvie Lubow: Mm-hmm. But it's like, but it's like at my, uh, 20th college reunion, that's what it was last year, and I'm just like chatting with some people who were on my freshman hall, and someone starts telling me about a recent episode of Talking Too Loud. And I'm like, "What the hell is going on?" And I'm like, "This is crazy."
[00:28:55] Chris Savage: Uh, but then of course, what they said like really stuck with me, and they knew some other thing Wistia was doing. I was like "This shit's working." That's what it was like, "Oh my God," it's like... And it happened yesterday. I was at a coffee shop with Brendan and ran into two people I hadn't seen in like, since pre-COVID times, and they're like, "Oh yeah, we see you on LinkedIn all the time.
[00:29:11] Saw this, that, and the other thing," and it's like this kind of, that very small interaction fuels me tremendously on getting through the, like, change and what the numbers are on social. I feel like the... So with that, that example's kind of perfect because I'm also totally bought in on zero-click marketing.
[00:29:31] Sylvie Lubow: It makes sense for the kind of world we're living in. It makes sense for, like, the platforms sort of wanting to keep you inside their own playground, like you identified. But I could hear someone saying to you, Chris, like, "Okay," I don't know what position they hold. Maybe they're the CFO. Um, "Okay," like you ran into Joe Schmo at the college reunion, and he referenced an episode of Talking Too Loud.
[00:29:55] Is he a customer? Right? Like- People did say this. I... Well, so it's funny 'cause, like, I won't throw anybody specific under the bus. But I had a bunch of people who were like, "What the hell are you doing with all this LinkedIn posting?" Like this se- And they're looking at the types of posts, and they're like, "Is this gonna move the needle?"
[00:30:10] Chris Savage: Like, "Is this, is this useful?" Yeah, but I- And, but they, and they were saying that, and then the thing that pushed everyone over the edge was, um, a few different, we used a few different tools and different things to, like, connect data together, and we realized, oh wait, a lot of the people who are engaging are people who are just recently purchased or are, like, to end up being in the funnel.
[00:30:33] We also, uh, d- changed how we thought about success in terms of like, and I think some of this came from the data that you and Rand shared, which was like- Mm-hmm ... hey, the Google search that you're seeing is not all Google search. Like, a lot of this is people coming from other platforms and then going directly in their browser bar to search.
[00:30:52] And so we started to ask, doing surveys when people sign up, saying like, "Where'd you hear about us?" And it turned out that when people told us where they heard about us, it's completely different than the rest of the data, and we're having an outsize impact from other things. And that, you go see people write down, "I heard about you from Savage on LinkedIn.
[00:31:10] I s- heard about you from Talking Too Loud. I heard about you at this conference," you start thinking pretty differently, and that stopped a lot of that concern. But without that, I think it was still exactly what you're saying, Sylvie, is people just being like, "Is this worth it? Is it good?" Like, do they show up?
[00:31:24] Sylvie Lubow: Yeah. What do you say to that person, Amanda, who's like, "Well, are they a customer?" I mean, it depends, right? If it's, because it depends on what you're selling, you know? Depends on who they know, because maybe that person isn't your customer or not your would-be customer, but maybe they would influence a potential other customer.
[00:31:46] Amanda Natividad: You know? And I feel like it's, sometimes I also wanna say, tell people, like, you know, I feel like worrying too much about, is this the right person? Is that gonna, that gonna move the needle? Is that gonna do that? There's a, there's gonna be, um, a point of diminishing returns, you know, where like you might realize you spent all day tied up in analytics and spreadsheets, and you have very little to, very little new knowledge gained that would materially change what you're doing anyway.
[00:32:15] So a little bit of my stance too is just like, can't you just do like what you think is right for your audience And your customers, and then do the thing? I don't know. I, that's, that's so un- Can't you just like do it? Yeah. You- Don't you know what you're, do you know what you're doing or no? Like, can't you just do your job and then like trust things?
[00:32:37] Like, I don't know. It seems like that would be a lot easier to do at a smaller company versus like- Yeah ... a bigger, lots of bureaucracy, lots of like- Yeah ... proving things out. Um... Yeah, yeah. I, I also do think that the whole like sustaining the business or that helps internally in bigger companies is, I mean, that's kind of my implicit playbook for corporate politics.
[00:33:05] You know, if you make sales happy- I mean- Yeah ... you're, you're good. It's true, right? Like, if sales- Yeah, that's true ... sale hates marketing, that CMO's out next quarter, you know it. But if sales likes marketing, marketing gets to keep their jobs. That's kind of shitty to say, but it's true. Well, it's, it's like the back to the, like, very concrete you can see it.
[00:33:27] Chris Savage: If you could see it move the numbers and impact something there, then you can have the trust that it's, you know, doing, you're doing good things elsewhere. I just find that it's also challenging because marketing, the zero-click change, like you've been talking about it for, I feel like three or four years at this point.
[00:33:44] Um, when you first started talking about it, it wasn't obvious. Mm-hmm. It's now becoming more obvious if you're trying to... It's not completely obvious to everybody, but it's becoming, starting to become more obvious. Uh, then you, marketing has to educate everybody else too, because like we're all, like, as employees of a business, you're wa- watching what's happening.
[00:34:02] Mm-hmm. It's like, "Why are they doing this stuff? Why is this different? Why are they putting these topics on? Why does this number, this number down, over here went down a lot." It's like, "Is that good? Is that bad? What does it mean?" And there's this big education, which I think is like, uh, the job falls to marketing to both, like, understand it, respond, actually work in the new way, and then educate the people around you to some degree too, so they understand why things are the way they are.
[00:34:26] You know, like, do you wanna talk about that, maybe the alligator graph a little bit and what that is? Oh. So that people understand that? 'Cause I feel like that's a good example of this. That, that is a good example. I have to like look it up though again. I do have a quick question though, going back to what you said about- Go ahead
[00:34:42] Amanda Natividad: uh, how did you hear about us? That's what we're here for. Yeah. Did you ever try the, like, putting in a fake thing? A fake option? Yes. We- How'd that go? Um, I mean- Wait, what was the fake option? Uh, I can't remember what it was. A, a cruise. Yeah. Well- We heard about your other cruise. Yeah, or like if it's influencer marketing for instance, it's like, "Oh, I, you know this influencer," and you name somebody who you've never done a campaign with, for instance, to see if they- Mm
[00:35:09] if people choose that. Yeah. The, um, and w- and randomizing it too, like randomizing the order of the list. Um, the other big thing was putting other in and just having people put in text. Mm. Mm-hmm. But wait- Which is- ... what's the benefit, I, the, I might be like very dumb in this moment, but what's the benefit- Yeah
[00:35:28] Sylvie Lubow: of putting in like a fake- A fake one? Yeah. See how faulty attribution and how faulty people's memories are. Because if you see- Mm ... like let's just say if, if, if like 20% of your customers or 10% or whatever choose the, the lie- Oh, God ... you'd be like, "Oh, well the, they're wrong. So I know that-" customers are wrong at least 10% of the time.
[00:35:51] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. Yeah. But where they heard, like, you know, we all- I think it's ... Well, it's very much like it's old school marketing data, right? It's like s- doing surveys to understand this stuff that's like im- humans aren't perfect, but at least directionally if you can see. For example, uh, a huge amount of our signups are word of mouth.
[00:36:11] Chris Savage: Huge. Hm. But way more than anybody thought. Mm. And, um, that was actually great because I think it was like this recognition of like, hey, all these, when we do these wild things that are really remarkable, that are all designed to get you to actually remember, like it is showing up. And, um, you know, the other inputs like the NPS, like I look at that and I'm like, I want the NPS to be really, really high.
[00:36:38] And I believe if the NPS is really, really high and customers have an amazing experience, they're much more likely to tell other people when it does come up or if they switch jobs or whatever. And a lot of that shows up as word of mouth. And that's kind of an advantage because like if you can optimize, work on these things that are hard to manage and hard to measure, uh, but actually have them functioning, then it becomes very hard to like unseat that.
[00:37:01] Sylvie Lubow: Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that zero click marketing, like content that comes from zero click marketing is better content or it's just content with different rules? Oh, interesting Well, I guess better is subjective, right? We like that, though. I want to say, yeah, I want to say it's better because what makes it better is maybe it's a fully fleshed thought.
[00:37:21] Amanda Natividad: It's a full thesis statement essentially. Mm-hmm. Putting into like LinkedIn, for instance, and it's a, it's an idea that can stand alone on its own where, you know, clicking is the additive, right? It's not required to learn more or fully understand something. Yeah. It's interesting because I had this happen recently where, like, I was on LinkedIn.
[00:37:43] Sylvie Lubow: I saw somebody make a short video about the three layers of hooks in video. Hmm. I watched it, read the post, delivered full value. There was no like, "Click this link for part two," or like, "Check out my website," you know? Like it was none of that. It was just the full, full. I took notes on it. That was first of all, took notes.
[00:38:06] It was that good, and I followed her. I followed her on LinkedIn, which I like, I'm not a big like, "I love your content, I'm gonna follow you," but it made me follow her. And, and it's purely because there was no friction. I, I, I could get it all there. I could stay in my LinkedIn feed, and I got everything I needed.
[00:38:28] Amanda Natividad: Mm-hmm. And, and that was like, I guess I'm describing that very in very, uh, in a lot of detail because I- Yeah, for people who have never been on LinkedIn. I'm describing it in a lot of detail because I feel like that is a version of zero-click marketing that like- Oh. Yeah ... is ex- Forget it. Yeah. No, but I think that's, that is the perfect example- Yeah
[00:38:54] Chris Savage: in terms of the person earned so much trust with you that you're like- She did ... "You know what? If I follow them and I keep getting stuff like this, like I'm gonna be happy to ha- to see this." Yeah. Like I was like, "This is feels like a class that I don't have to pay for." Exactly. Exactly. And I see, and I do think the best kind...
[00:39:14] Amanda Natividad: Okay, here's what I'll say. I think the best kind of zero-click marketing is something like this where it gives people like you, like, "Oh, I wanna, I wanna subscribe. How about more of this? It's gonna help me. Yes, yes, yes." And it's helping somebody when they're in that stage of not ready to buy, which could be for a myriad of reasons, right?
[00:39:33] Mm-hmm. It could be they don't have the money yet, right? Like, and so you take them on this journey of, "Here's how you do this thing just you, just on your own. I'll walk you through it. I'll give you everything I know." And it being that like when that, so as that person learns from you, eventually when they're ready to buy because maybe they've gotten a new job or they have the money for it, they can be like, "Oh, I'm gonna buy from this person," or, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna pay for her video editing services."
[00:40:00] Like great. I think people underestimate the fact that a lot of people, most of us are lazy and we're not gonna do the thing. So I think sometimes people get worried about, yeah, but if I, if I tell everyone all my secrets and give away all the value, like they're not gonna buy from me because they're just gonna consume all my content.
[00:40:18] But I always say like, yeah, but we're lazy. And I feel like video editing, well, for me it's a good example because I don't like to do that. I barely know how to do that. It will take, if I took this video and had to edit out like one small thing, I, you bet that would take me like an hour to do. I don't wanna do that and I'm not, I'm never doing it.
[00:40:38] No amount of YouTube classes will convince me to do it myself. So if someone wants to give me a bunch of like free advice on speaking better in video, emoting in a more, um, in a more compelling way, yes, give me all the advice. And then one day when I'm ready to buy, yes, I'm thinking of you first. Right.
[00:40:59] Chris Savage: But it's, it's also lo- and everything you're describing is like about a longer term relationship versus a short term one. Yeah. Which I think is the other reason why so many people struggle with this. 'Cause they're like, "I want money now." Like, "Now, now, now, now, now." Like, "Give it to me. I don't want to wait."
[00:41:14] Like, or we did a campaign in February, did the campaign work? Mm-hmm. And it's, and I think that this is, a lot of this is like, well, I don't know how well it worked in February, but probably if we did it and it was really great with, by next February, like that w- someone who came in this campaign probably saw many of the other things that we did and actually it worked really well.
[00:41:33] Yeah. But that is, that, that is also where I think that like even business model, how the company is funded, all these other factors make it either easier or harder to do this. That's so true. We also like, we, we allow for like longer term results in other aspects of our lives. Like I don't think we like step into a kitchen and expect to cook for one minute and have a meal.
[00:42:00] Sylvie Lubow: Like maybe that's the microwave, I don't know. But, um, you know, we know it's gonna take like at least 15, 20 minutes to get dinner on the table. And same thing with the gym. Like you don't walk in and think, "I'm gonna leave here being 10 pounds lighter in one hour." Like you know that it's longer. But in marketing we don't give ourselves that same permission.
[00:42:24] Why? Why? That's my question. Why? Yeah. I mean, why is like, I think part of it is like can we just ... Part of it, can we just pay people to do their jobs? Like your job is to do the marketing, great. That's part of it. Yep. Yeah. There's gonna be a sign-up sheet, like you already crossed that bar, and then on top of that, great, you brought in new customers.
[00:42:43] Amanda Natividad: That's what you should be doing. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Wait, we should talk about the alligator graph that you brought up. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. Okay, so the alligator graph, this has been kinda ... It's become, I think, a little bit of a meme in SEO circles, but it's the, it's the visual, like, phenomenon of, uh, rising impressions to your website and declining clicks.
[00:43:04] So it looks like the opening of an alligator's mouth. I was doing that with my hands, as if you don't know what an alligator is. No, but that was great. And I think anyone listening, they appreciated that description. Yeah. But yeah, and like t- and like this is like one example of what's happening and I think right where the impressions account is going way up in AI search in this case.
[00:43:27] Chris Savage: Um, but I think it's also true on social media, right? Like, what we're saying is like you're gonna be hopefully getting tens of, tens of thousands of people to see something maybe a week, a month, like, and maybe this is much more than you were getting before 'cause you're investing a lot more in it. The, but the amount of people who actually come to the website, probably a lot less than you would've gotten from the same amount of impressions before.
[00:43:50] But the people who come, much more connected, ready to go, like purchase at a higher rate, sign up at a higher rate, like stick around longer because that connection is so strong when they're coming, right? And I, I kind of feel like I see the alligator graph like all over the place- Yeah ... for this reason.
[00:44:08] Sylvie Lubow: Yeah. I see it. Whoa. Yeah. It's, this might be a whole tangent, Ed, we can cut it if it doesn't make any sense, but it's making me think about like a r- a retail clothing store, right? Like, if you walk into Gap and you, like, look around, you don't buy anything. You looked around for a while. You don't buy at Gap.
[00:44:25] Chris Savage: We know, yeah. You do not shop at The Gap. No, I love The Gap. What? I ho- I hope they're good. Don't, don't meet your heroes. They've been killing it recently. Anyhow. Do they count that as like a failure that I didn't buy anything, or do they count that as a win that I came into the store at all? Yes. Yeah. You know what I mean?
[00:44:47] Sylvie Lubow: Mm-hmm. And I feel like they pro- it's probably the latter. Probably? But I don't know Is it a little like, is that like a, is like, should we, should we be counting the fact that they came into the store as a win, like in digital? I think we should. I think we should. I mean, you know, if your impressions are like skyrocketing and you have zero customers, that's a big problem, right?
[00:45:15] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. Right. But that's also, I would, but I would also bet that that's not really a marketing problem. That's probably a business problem- Mm-hmm ... that's also affecting marketing. You know? Like- Or it's an ICP problem. That's, I think you've said it- Yeah. Right. Yeah ... you said this very well before, which was like, that's how that can happen, I think, is like you're making a ton of stuff for actually the wrong person.
[00:45:35] Chris Savage: And then it's like, well, that doesn't connect. So is it like you need to change your ICP, you need to change your product, or are you actually going after the wrong group? Yeah. Exactly. Um, I feel like we should probably talk about AI stuff, AI tools being mentioned- Let's do it ... in the AI. Um- We have to say AI at least three times in our podcast episode, so.
[00:45:59] Amanda Natividad: Well, I'm really interested in this, and I, I mean, I'm not a machine learning person. Um, I like just learned how to make a website last month. No, um- Congratulations ... well, yeah. No, I can make websites. But- ... something that people are talking about a lot is how to get mentioned, right? In the- Yeah ... AI overviews, ChatGPT, all that stuff.
[00:46:22] I don't keep track of like algorithmic changes day-to-day, 'cause I think that's kind of a waste of time. I'm much more interested in understanding, um, what's going to be durable in general for the next year or so. And so what I'm learning, and please tell me like if you think I'm, if you think I'm wrong, it- what I'm learning about getting mentioned in the AI overviews, LLM tools, is you basically want to have really, really good digital PR.
[00:46:50] You know? Like you want to get lots of mentions to your brand, ideally with your link somewhere. E- even if people aren't clicking as much, the existence of the link is also providing to the web and to the robots- Yeah ... the signals of who you are, what you do. And the other thing is that you also want to be mentioned in the context of topics or discussions that are relevant to you and your brand.
[00:47:15] You know, like you want to be mentioned in the right places basically, and mentioned by the right people, the right people as defined by your customers, maybe reporters in your niche, um, co-opetition. Co-opetition meaning like pe- like other companies or brands who probably share your audience but are not creating a direct competing pool.
[00:47:36] Sylvie Lubow: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, those are the things that over time helped influence AI. But there's also like just your own content, right? Like your blog content, because the bots, whatever, are crawling all of that, taking that into account. Yeah. And the thing that, uh, Rain and I have been talking about is the importance of video in all this, and like making sure you have a video transcript.
[00:47:59] Amanda Natividad: Because- Um, and Sylvie and I were talking about this. Like, I don't think, like, ChatGPT can't watch a YouTube video for you. Is that right? That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. The, the only... Like, Google can suck out the data from YouTube, but nobody else can. Uh-huh. So if you want to show up in ChatGPT or Claude or Perplex or anything else, you have to have the transcript.
[00:48:21] Chris Savage: That's why we have the LLM embed that takes the transcript and puts it in there so that, like, when, um, basically when your, your websites are being crawled, it can actually say, "Hey, this is a crawler. This is what this video is about. You can take the information, put it in there." But yeah, it's, it's quite important.
[00:48:36] I was also smiling when you were talking too, because, like, you're talking about the importance of blogs, and I feel like we've heard so often, like, blogs are dead and useless. So it's like, "Oh, it turns out they actually still matter." Yeah. Turns out publishing your own stuff still matters. Yeah. But we can bring this back, too, to Sylvie's point about the, the video that she saw on LinkedIn that was helpful.
[00:48:55] Amanda Natividad: Hopefully, that creator is also publishing that video on YouTube or something or in her blog. And, yeah. Because when you start... Because maybe, like, today you'll be like, "Wait, what is it again?" Maybe I'll ask you, like, "What were those hooks?" Yeah. And you'll have to look it up. Right. Then you can search it.
[00:49:08] I'll have to Google. Right. Yeah. And then hopefully you'd find it on YouTube. Yeah. And I think that's the big difference from- Mm-hmm ... before all of this, is before you wanted one place, your canonical place- Mm-hmm ... that had the video. So you had to make a choice. Or your blog post was like, "Oh, is it only on my site?
[00:49:25] Chris Savage: Am I optimizing more for my traffic here? And I know I'm gonna get less, but it's gonna be, like, closer into my funnel, or is it gonna be on YouTube, or is, like, what do you..." And now it's basically, like, put everything everywhere and make it so that the right person can always find it, the right agent can always find it, it is available, and it is like, that is very, very, very different than the game we were playing before.
[00:49:44] Amanda Natividad: Yes. Totally. Very different. It's a whole new zero-click game. Totally. Yeah. I mean- And, and it's als- it... I'm thinking about stores again, right? It's like you have a flagship store. Are you talking about Old Navy now, or are you still on Gap? Sorry, L. Davey, you're kicked out. You're, you're not, you're not in this, uh, clothing analogy.
[00:50:07] Sylvie Lubow: Um, no, but you have a flagship store. What are you gonna not have a satellite store? Of course you're gonna have a sat- you're gonna have more satellite stores. You're gonna have some of the same inventory in those stores that you have in your flagship. Yeah. You're gonna do pop-ups in other- You're gonna do pop-ups
[00:50:22] Amanda Natividad: other spaces. You get to borrow a little bit of their audience. I love that. The- I feel like we could go all day on this. It's, it's really interesting. Yeah, I think it's also changing. It's still changing so rapidly. Like- Mm-hmm ... which I find very, um, exciting and frustrating where- Yeah ... I feel like I unlock, "Oh, this is what's really working on LinkedIn right now."
[00:50:46] Chris Savage: It's like, "Oh, everything's upside down." Okay. Yeah. If we weren't this focused on it, we wouldn't be able to correct and figure out what the new version of this is. Um, so it is very much, uh... Yeah, it's interesting to see how everyone's trying to figure out how to navigate all of this when it's all zero click, it's all make great stuff, make remarkable things, and put it out into the world.
[00:51:11] But the way you put it out, where you put it out, uh, is just changing so rapidly. Yeah, it really is. It's, it's, it's, it scares me, too. I mean, and as I- as I'm writing the book, like already I'm like, "Oh, shoot, I have to go rewrite that section again- ... for the second or third time." I'm like, "Oh, no." And I've... It's, it has really pushed me, you know, when I said I'm more, I'm much more interested in the ideas that are durable.
[00:51:34] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. Like, it has really pushed me to think that way because we do have a chapter on, you know, AI marketing. It's not super long, but like I'm re- I'm reviewing it. I've edited, I've edited that full chapter like 10 times 'cause I want this to be like, it's fine to me if something gets, is dated, right, like in a couple years, but I don't want someone to read that chapter a year from today and be like, "Whoa, that is 0% true."
[00:52:00] Sylvie Lubow: Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, this, this is reminding me too of one other thing we didn't talk about that I wanna just get in here- Ooh ... before we run out of time, which is, um, we've kind of been, let's, with your example, talking about you, Rand, SparkToro, but like interchangeably a little bit. Like we're putting this stuff out there.
[00:52:18] Chris Savage: Well, uh, did you say that I think you're putting it out there, Rand's putting it out there. I imagine some of the stuff is also on the SparkToro brand. And I think this has been a pretty interesting shift over the last few years of the importance of, like, the personal brands alongside the company brand.
[00:52:35] Mm. And as you were talking, it also made me think of the importance more of, like, sub-brands for companies. Mm, mm, mm. Where if you, you know, as these algorithms try to figure out what's going on, it's like, well, if we have all these different tools at Wistia, but it's Wistia Record, Wistia Edit, Wistia Webinars, um, what actually shows up is pretty different because we're known for being video hosting for so long, versus, like, if those have more branded terms, then it's actually easier to attach the right information to what those brands, those sub-brands are.
[00:53:06] Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering your take on this, as someone who has built up a great personal brand and has also built up a great company brand. Like, how do you think about zero-click marketing across all of this? I, I'm still forming my opinion because I, I, I can already foresee how I'm gonna run into issues this year.
[00:53:26] Amanda Natividad: Like, oh, where, where should this thing live? Because for the most part, it has been easy for me to differentiate between my brand and the SparkToro brand, and even, like, what I recommend for Rand. I mean, Rand makes all his own stuff, but sometimes I'll chime in and be like, "Hey, you should do a post on this thing."
[00:53:42] So the way I had always approached it was like, SparkToro is, you know, we, we provide information, education, news about audience research, how to better understand your audience so you can do better in marketing. And how that is different for, from, from the perspectives of me versus Rand, I tend to think of it as like, okay, Rand is the founder's, co-founder CEO, okay?
[00:54:05] So it should be like, what are the... What is he seeing in the industry at large? Mm. Like, what are some of the macroeconomic trends? Um, like, what, what's his big picture vision? And then for me as the marketer, I think of it as, okay, so what should marketers learn from what their CEO is thinking? So that's kind of been the differentiators.
[00:54:28] Like- Mm ... Rand will have the big idea related to audience research, and then I will have the, "So what? What's next steps for marketers?" You're, like, extracting that- Mm-hmm ... and really diving deep on marketers. Yeah. Like, Rand will say the thing, he'll have the research, and then I will say, "With this research, do you mean this?
[00:54:46] I think this. What do you think?" And he's like, "Yeah, go write your own sh*t." You know? He, he doesn't talk that way. But you know, like, he, he'll be, "Yeah-" It'd be cool if he talked like that. "... go write your own." You'd be such, you'd be such a badass if he talked like that. No, but he'll be like, "You should totally write a blog post on that."
[00:55:00] And I'm like, great, so that becomes easy for me. And then for my separate personal brand, what I then might do is, how does that fit into my overall marketing philosophy? Mm-hmm. Like, how I see the world, how I see audiences, the way I do my work. So that's just the more, like, personal version of things, but that's how I differentiate.
[00:55:24] Chris Savage: Yeah. I think it's interesting that you have the clear differentiation and are thinking about it that way. 'Cause I think this is where I think a lot of people are gonna get hung up- Mm-hmm ... is like, "I wanna do this, but, like, can I have really pointed takes on the company brand? Should I? When should I not?
[00:55:38] When should I comment on things?" Um, versus, like, as an individual, might be, you might find it very easy to go on a podcast and answer a question. And so, um, that as the brand would be hard to answer. And so that's, I think it is, it sounds like you have those templates in your mind pretty- Mm-hmm ... clearly on what goes where, but I think that it just feels very important in, like, the zero-click world to do that, right?
[00:56:00] To be really clear about what the different types of topics and, um, advice and insight and behind-the-scenes are happening on the different channels. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Um, Amanda, this has been amazing. It was so nice to meet you, and thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. I was so excited to be here.
[00:56:21] Amanda Natividad: I, I had been thinking of this show as like, "Oh, I wanna pitch myself for their show one day." What? I was, like, so scared to reach out to you. Well, not scared, but I was like, "I really want her to say yes." Sylvie's always pretty afraid though. You should know that. Um, but, uh, where, where- I live my life in fear.
[00:56:41] Chris Savage: Yeah, she has great fears at all times. Uh, like, "Is the gap gonna be open today? I don't know." So random. Am I gonna be able to stop going to Old Navy? Yeah. I am the last guy who wants to go to Old Navy. I don't wanna go there at all. I'm not gonna buy anything. I'm just gonna try it on. Um- Oh my God ... Amanda, where can people connect with you?
[00:57:00] All of that is being cut, by the way. No, no, that's staying all in. I mean, that's why I'm going right into this. Amanda, where can people connect with you? Yeah, find me on LinkedIn. I'm, I'm most active there. Um, you can send hate mail to, to my work account, amanda@sparktoro.com. Nice. You can do that, you can do that p- in private.
[00:57:18] Amanda Natividad: And then- ... I guess hopefully check out my podcast, Zero Click Marketing. You can find that on Find Podcasts. And then hopefully, because I'm asking now in public, Chris will join sometime. Oh, for sure. Oh, yes he will. Yeah, I'd love it. Of course. Um- Yes ... thank you so much. This was awesome. Yeah. Thank you for having me.
[00:57:37] Chris Savage: That's all for this week's episode of Talking Too Loud. Please subscribe, follow the channel on YouTube. If you want behind-the-scenes exclusive content, you can subscribe on wistia.com. And otherwise, you can find Sylvie and I on LinkedIn. See you soon